The Twisted Polygamy of Joseph Smith with Lindsay Hansen Park (Joseph Smith: Part Three)
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Edit: As one commenter noted, there is a huge difference between Joseph Smith's religious polygamist practice and a more modern approach to many forms of relationships entered into by adults with informed consent. Joseph Smith's polygamy is clearly evil and built in threatening women and their families with a loss of salvation if they do not comply. Modern open relationships take many forms and I ultimately support the rights of consenting adults to enter into relationships they choose.
Resources mentioned in the video:
*Many links below are Wikipedia links. Please keep in mind Wikipedia is a website that summarizes information and links to primary sources. I suggest clicking through to as many primary sources as possible after reading a cursory summary of these topics.
*Sunstone Symposium link: sunstone.org/
*Holding Out Help (Charity that assists those who are leaving modern polygamy): holdingouthelp...
*Joseph Smith: Fabricated “First Visions” (Part One) • Mormon Founder's Fabri...
*Joseph Smith: Founding a Church for Power and Sex (Part Two)
• Founding Mormonism for...
*W.W. Phelps speaking about “marrying Lamanite women” bhroberts.org/...
*Native American people and Mormonism Wikipedia Summary en.wikipedia.o...
*List of Joseph Smith’s wives: en.wikipedia.o...
*Fanny Alger Wikipedia Summary en.wikipedia.o...
*Fanny Alger (Info from Mormon/LDS website) www.churchofje...
*The Persistence of Polygamy (book) shorturl.at/F9uMy
*Louisa Beaman Bio www.wivesofjose...
*Info about John C. Bennett en.wikipedia.o...
*Zina D Huntington Bio josephsmithspo...
*Explaining Joseph’s polygamy from a dynastic/faithful point of view
rsc.byu.edu/vo...
*Law of Adoption Doctrine
en.wikipedia.o...)
*Helen Mar Kimball en.wikipedia.o...
*Emma Smith’s feelings about polygamy josephsmithspo...
*Nauvoo Expositor Wikipedia Summary
en.wikipedia.o...
*The killing of Joseph Smith Wikipedia Summary en.wikipedia.o...
A few videos that may interest you:
*My Mormon endowment explained video: ( • Secret Mormon Temple C... )
*Mormon garments explained video: ( • Mormon Garments Explained )
*Every rule I followed as a Mormon: ( • Every Rule I Followed ... )
*My Mormon mission was a waste: ( • Mormon Missions Explai... )
*Complete story of my Mormon wedding: ( • Mormon Temple Weddings... )
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I find it chilling that mainstream media avoided analyzing the Church as you are. Well done, girl
I have looked in to this history and my conclusion was that it was Young not Smith pushing Polygamy and that Young and his LDS followers killed Smith over the issue. I say this for a few reasons. First Smith only had children with his legal wife and given the lack of contraception at the time it seems unlikely he was having sex with any one else. Two the Mormon church had a schism following Smith's death and split down the line between the two men. Young and his followers relocated to Utah to become the LDS and Smith's followers stayed in St. Louis where they maintain a congregation to this day who have never been accused of Polygamy' since separating from Young. And Third given that it is unlikely that Smith was a polygamist and that Young defiantly was and given the public backlash that developed against them in St. louis this would have been a conflict between the two men and their adherent groups , one blaming the other for the issue and the other fearing that the living profit would openly denounce them and expose Youngs perversion of the extended fraternal marriage practice. Adding to this is the fact that Young and his group abscond immediately after smith's death removing themselves from jurisdiction in an attempt to found their own territory to make their practices "legal" while Smith's family and followers stayed put in St Louis and were never convicted of Polygamy in the aftermath.
This reminds me of the preacher from the John Steinbeck's book:"Grapes of wrath".
Why are mormon girls so beautiful..😂😂😂
Alyssa - I have an annoying coworker who is constantly trying to give us a copy of the mormon bible. Yesterday, I told her that I would feel uncomfortable accepting a gift from her without also giving her a gift as well, and suggested that rather than her giving me a copy of the book of mormons, we would trade books, next week. She agreed. Can’t wait to see her reaction to receiving a copy of your book.
Maybe a little off-topic. But reminds me of an encounter I had while studying abroad in Finland for a year with a horny Spanish girl who was after me. I had always more or less politely declined and avoided her advances and ploys to get in bed with me, while spending time with and maintaining a friendly relationship with her, although all her signals also made me incredibly horny like I'd never been in my whole life. She was just a little bit too psycho and crazy and I thought nothing good could come from that. So in the end during our last days there we met with a couple of friends in a pub, and as a farewell gift I gave her a book, "Happiness" by a French Buddhist monk, Matthieu Ricard. She said "I also have a farewell gift for you", took a condom out of her pocket and smacked it onto the table. "Sadness."
Lol, I think you will get free of that coworker!
t's totally unacceptable behaviour at work. You have to go to HR and complain about this Mormon harassment. I
Extra points if you drink coffee while you hand over the book
Pretend to go out now and again for a "cigarette", and keep a cup of coffee on your desk. The Mormon will give up .
I also was taught joseph smith had multiple wives because he married widows so they wouldn't be alone and unprotected. :( so frustrating that we were lied to
Honestly it truly does hurt knowing trusted leaders and family use these not-true-at all explanations to keep us in the church and keep us faithful. If they can just give you a good enough reason, it feels easier to just try to put it in the back of your mind 😔
Indeed. Thanks.
That was part true, a very small part.
I was super angry when I found this out. Thought it was all lies. Nope 💯 accurate. I have been lied to my whole life about this con man.
What is Saint taking advantage of traumatized heartbroken women.
I remember asking the Mormon boy I dated in high school, if he would practice polygamy if his prophet reintroduced it. He immediately answered yes. If his prophet said it was necessary he wouldn’t question it. He also told me I had to convert if I wanted to ever marry him. We dated for almost 4 years. I didn’t realize how much brainwashing I had to endure and I was left with a bit of trauma and insecurities. I realized once he left to his mission that I was never going to be that perfect Mormon girl for him. I was raised catholic and my family wasn’t very religious. So glad I didn’t wait for him and had that separation to realize the infatuation with the perfect husband wasn’t love. Thank you for all your videos.
It's an odd religion.
BRO SAME
I do not believe Mormon women would ever allow the return to polygamy. They are strong minded and would make life miserable for the men of their faith.
dude, hardly anyone is perfect. just love them, some people need decades of love or even longer. love is the way,
'infatuation with the perfect husband isn't love' this is such a powerful line i have to remember it. Thanks.
It's so funny how painters always depict Joseph Smith as this handsome man when in real life he looked more like a gremlin
Completely agree, in paintings he looks so intellectual and trustworthy, and in the one photo we have he looks much more hardened.
@@alyssadgrenfellit was a hard time to live, especially if you were a schiester who hundreds of people wanted dead
@@alyssadgrenfellwow! I just looked at the paintings Vs photos. The artist was very flattering 😂
@@AsBeth83, I just saw it. Does not look holy.
An inside source says: Always believe the ugly paintings. They would have thrown the artist out if it wasn't good enough. In fact - any painting is probably a more flattering look.
I'm a direct descendant of Joeseph's brother, Hyrum. I'm not religious and in fact have rejected the church since I was old enough to know about it. This is one of the most corrupted bloodlines in existence, it's unnerving how many of us there are.
You are not what your ancestors were. You are yourself, different in your own right and qualities from them. You are not responsible for their behaviors. Feel free!
@@Rainbernamaybe, I would say probably if there is a spiritual consciousness connection, this is probably one of the results. Probably part of a polygamists or a religious leader longs to stop doing what he becomes aware hurts other people that he was only doing out of lackful thinking.
Hi cuz! Also descendent of Hyrum😂. Same story. Left church at 15.
better than doing the "mutilation of genitalia of unconsenting human beings" if you ask me. everyone has something stupid-ugly in their bloodline somewhere, as Jesus said (or so) everyone is a sinner, but repent and change your ways. no need to continue the stupid stuff, just change and be a better person.
Hey cousins~ lolol
I feel that it is really important to call him what he was; a child groomer. Also just because it was more common back then to marry children did not mean it was the norm in 1800's America. I researched this for a project recently and I encourage people to go read the actual research on the time for "age at time of first marriage". While it was not uncommon 15-16 year old girls to start courting, the vast majority of women waited till 18 get married and the actual most common age for white women at the time was early to mid 20's depending on the year. Joseph Smith was also far older than the average age of the for the men who did marry 14 year old girls. So while it wouldn't be illegal or completely unheard of. Most people at the time still would consider it weird and abnormal for a nearly 40 year old man to be with a girl of that age.
it is important to call you what you are= a liar. Show use the marriage records or admit you lied.
@@michaelparks5669it’s in the national archives. Super easy to find!
www.archives.gov/research/vital-records
CDC also has records pertaining to this. Since blood tests were required for marriage the CDC has the records of things like average age of marriage per year, most common diseases by age, % of marriages done when the woman was already pregnant and by the 1900s we also have data for how far along in the pregnancy they were.
Are you going to claim these records are not reliable? Because if you are then there’s no reason for anyone to try and appeal to you since instead of looking at the data and THEN coming to a conclusion, you have a conclusion and are looking for data that supports the conclusion you’ve already made.
I sure enjoyed these authentic women speak wisdom. I was reminded of why I left Mormonism and learned several new reasons. Thank you!
@@michaelparks5669hurt dogs holler bud
@@michaelparks5669 lol your prophet is a pdfile
Cults are all about sex, money, and power and the LDS is all three.
Excellent point made 👍
@@markkrispin6944 cool have fun believing in nothing
th-cam.com/video/mV4ZRAQdUno/w-d-xo.htmlsi=fYxHFc8h8uJ2mTbg
@@tuckerbugeater not believing in supernatural doesn't equal to "believing in nothing". You have such a primitive understanding of reality
@@KateeAngelDAMN "You have such a primitive understanding of reality" goes hard as fuck. Stealing that line
When I was a young girl, under 18, older men often took interest in me and took advantage of how young and naive I was. I was overwhelmed, easily coerced, and easily manipulated in these relationships. It's truly terrifying, as a woman looking back on history, how few people are willing to stand in the way of a predator as long as it's far more convenient to shield your eyes. Is it more godly to defend a monster, or to stand up to one? I think the LDS thinks the former.
Not to mention... the IRONY of trading away your own daughter to a predator for your own salvation screams evil to me.
Our whole dating concept is based on predation. Look around, it's not hard to spot.
Maybe this is why Utah ( the Mormons)has such a high rate of sexual abuse
Eloquently stated. Young Women lessons should teach them what groomers do and how LDS even attracts perpetrators.
@@personnoun7086 so you lied too? you are the evil one.
Regardless of one's personal beliefs, this history is fascinating, thank you for the education
Thank you for watching. These stories are so important to share.
Just so you know: this is available on the public Joseph Smith playlist. Have a good day!
Wow, welp, an early release for those who were paying close attention, I guess!
@@alyssadgrenfell I suppose so! Have a wonderful day!
@@FromJamestime well are you just so special to bring this to our attention! Congratulations!
Understanding what it takes to be a husband, I find it difficult to believe that a man could be a good husband to multiple women at the same time.
💯
Most men have a difficult time with one wife so I don't know what makes them think that they can handle multiple. 😮
He wasn’t a good husband he was a sex addict with profound mental health issues and a child rapist.
I already have a tough time trying to improve myself as a person with my girlfriend coaching me through it. There's no way I can handle more than one major relationship, let alone multiple marriages.
his wives have the most heartbreaking diaries :( helen mar kimball married when she was just 14, and she didn't realize it was going to be more than a ceremony. after he died she entered another plural marriage. even though she defended it she called it a trial that women had to go through to be good mormons.
Joseph Smith sleeping with the 14 year old girl just increases his cruelty that he did to her. The chances that he married 34 plus woman and the 14 year old girl being one of them and him not sleeping with her is minus 150%. He obviously slept with her in my opinion, but I agree that even in the 0.000001 % chance that he did not sleep with her, it does not take away the cruelty of him destroying her innocence even if it was just for her to be his wife at 14 without any intercourse.
Since he has no problem sleeping around with Nancy, who was only 16-17 ; for me there is no chance he hasn't slept with her
your opinion is a lie.
A family friend of Helen Mar Kimball (who married him at 14) said she said to her:
"I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it."
To me "anything more than ceremony" clearly indicates they had sex.
It could also be the actual marriage in having to live together etc.. I'm with you though, there's no way he didn't sleep with her.
@@luiysia Helen Mar Kimbell never wrote that. Either you are quoting a liar or you are lying. Helen Mar Kimbell defended plural marriage all her life.
I just want to thank you for your vids Alyssa! I was almost a convert after talking to missionaries for many months - I didn’t grow up religious and knew nothing about Mormons. We would do readings and I would ask questions about scripture, and it’s insane how different their answers were to reality. Your vids give a lot of clarity to what I viewed at first as a very welcoming nice community.. I would have been miserable if I became a full fledged convert lol.
Just a heads up, the photos of the people being identified as wives or husbands, from events that occured in 1841 etc, please understand - Photography for portraiture was not common then. The photos of them are from later in life. They did not look like that at the time of the stories being related, like when Joseph was marrying them. When Joseph was marrying them, they were decades younger than pictured here.
Photography didn't become a common practice for portraiture in the US until the mid 1850s. Daguerreotypes existed in major cities by the mid 40s but even still they were very uncommon for people to have them made.
That is an _extremely_ good point
Apparently the photo is from 1844 and the popular painting is only from 1842. So not s huge difference in his age!
@@thenopedetective i don't think you understand my comment.
I’m a Ex Mormon at VW the age of 84 after 67 yrs “ So BThankful for Wonderful Women l like of trying to be good enough “ So Thankful for Women like Youselves “ Much Love ❤️🌻
Learning all this about Joseph smith makes me think is this why Mormons are so into running MLM “businesses”
Almost all MLMs get their ground start in the Mormon community, if they aren’t already founded by Mormons in the first place. It’s fascinating and sad and wild
This is an interesting take because many years ago when I was a young adult and very involved in our church (Catholic), the son of one of our church friends got really into in an MLM, and even organized a meeting trying to recruit people, it was like an energy drink of some kind. Some time after, he became a Mormon. He recently got married in the Mormon temple and looks to be very faithful (per FB). Just an interesting thought, I wonder if it was at all triggered by him being introduced to that MLM, or if it's just correlation but not causation. Very interesting
This is the same argument I try so hard to teach people when it comes to abuse, and how people only believe (and very dubiously) abuse when it's physical. Physical abuse is just one of the tools of abuse, it's not the abuse itself. But people don't get it.
Yes. Emotional and Mental Abuse are the real elephants in the room. Scars heal. Mental and emotional scars are harder to detect much less heal.
Emma got sick of cleaning up the mess after Joseph's drinking sessions, which is why alcohol was banned.
I read in one of the offical books of the lds church that smoking was stopped because cleaning up afterwards was a nightmare
Please don't impersonate me.
@@alyssadgrenfellI don't understand that comment. Who is impersonating you?
@@Blaane15 she probably responded to a comment that has since been deleted
That’s how it was presented-but why wasn’t polygamy stopped-because Emma trying to pick up the pieces and the mess from that wasn’t fair EITHER. Between the personal betrayal and the demands or perceived necessity to deny it in public-just a MESS! Give me tobacco spittle any day or let the men clean up their own damn mess!
This is very enlightening to me. Not just about Mormonism, but about how the way men treat women is experienced by women.
❤❤❤ this convo from two brilliant & insightful women. I'm a NeverMo in Utah who went down the rabbit hole to learn more about what my neighbors believe. I am still regularly surprised, shocked, amazed. I have always been a science-minded naturalist - religion never made any sense to me. So I have come to a much deeper empathy due to hearing (ex) Mormon stories. And also now see the dangers of coercive & culty indoctrination and mind control. Its everywhere!
I learn something new all the time, tidbits like young Joseph stealing liquor & it being replaced with hot sauce to deter him (lol talk about "hot drink"! I kinda figured it was about whisky & spirits not temperature anyway). I still need to get my Sunstone 2024 tickets, looking forward to meeting you both in person perhaps.
These stories always make me so sad for Emma. She deserved so much better
They all deserved so much better
As did the men who loved their wives but were forced to give them in marriage to someone else
another banger video from Alyssa. congrats on getting to speak at the conference! you’ve become such a big and admirable voice in the exmo community. can’t wait to see what you make next!
Thank you so much for watching and for this comment. It’s honestly been pretty overwhelming this last year but I’m going to keep going. 💙
A brilliant seminary professor categorized Mormonism as a fertility cult. The whole belief system depends on the integrity of Joseph Smith, and it crumbles on that shaky foundation.
Amazing that the Mexican-American war would be used as an excuse when so many were already practicing polygamy years before said war. Gaslighting through the decades.
*Mexican-American
@@eli8701 You're right, thank you.
Goid one!
The FLDS are probably the closest to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. 😨
At the very least, the FLDS is world's closer to Joseph Smith's church than the modern/mainstream Mormon Church.
@@alyssadgrenfellLove your channel! Warren Jeffs was strongly opposed to black men getting the priesthood in the Church just like Brigham Young established. And of course the FLDS try live like the pioneers did. Crazy stuff.
@@BornKafir In certain respects I would agree, but there are other aspects to the Islamic State that make them stand out as a violent Salafist organization. It’s hard to say whether Muhammad would have approved of the things Daesh does in established Muslim territories.
@@ianblake815 I'm certain Mo would consider Alawites, Shia and Druze to be apostates. Yezidis as heretical kuffar. Daesh didn't consider the people in Syria to be Muslims. They even attacked sunni groups.
There is precedent of Mo dealing with apostates and non-Muslims in the his life. I'm certain Mo wouldn't hesitate if he thought he could win.
@@ianblake815 if you red the sunna, you know he would have 100%.
This was so powerful. I grew up Mormon in the UK. My own mother was mistreated (not going into detail in public) and I can see the cultural legacy reaching all the way back. How she had the courage to leave her husband and the church w two young girls I will never know. She took her problems to the bishop of her ward, and was told that the reason she was being mistreated was because she wasn't being a dutiful enough wife. She was shunned, had to leave behind her family and everyone she'd known. I still don't know how she did it. I was also interested to hear similar so called 'support' had happened Dustin Lance Black's mother when he shared his stories. Listening to you both here just shows how a culture mistreatment of women was baked in to LDS. You are both brave wonderful women and I found healing in your conversation today.
And of course, he didn't let his LEGAL wife Emma have multiple husbands, the fucking hypocrite!
EVERYBODY WAKE UUUP ALYSSA GRENFELL JUST POSTED!!!!!
Yay!! Thank you for watching 😀😀
@@alyssadgrenfell YOU ARE A LIAR......
@@alyssadgrenfell YOU DELETE ANYONE WHO OUTS YOUR BOGUS CLAIMS.
@@alyssadgrenfellThanks for exposing Joseph Smith's absolute lust for sex and power, and Smith's wreckless disregard for the marriages or lives of other people.
@@michaelparks5669except you?
I was brought up Christian, went to church every Sunday, have read the whole Bible. I had to look up what sealing keys are. Well Joseph Smith had an imagination, he certainly could come up with things.
Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard had a lot in common tbh
@@helpfulcommenterit's kind of scary to imagine what JS would've done if he had had the internet 😮
Early members and leaders claimed to be “above the law” and it continues.
I enjoy all your videos. I grew up in a very strict Christian home. At least I thought it was but when I grew up and moved out and could think for myself, it was extremely a hypocritical version that was used to give credence to whatever they felt like. Now, I love any kind of documentary, videos, that expose other religions (cults). I've seen so many on Scientology and others and bits and pieces of mormonism but never in depth that you've shared. Thank you for sharing this part of your life with us.
I just got back from FSY, the weeklong mormon youth bootcamp. They had a whole day dedicated to how it would've been impossible for such an uneducated man like Joseph Smith to make up this book in such a "short time". Could you please do a video on this? This is actually convincing youth to go deeper down the rabbit hole.
JS wasn't formally educated but he had education. He was intelligent, had a vivid imagination and was a very good story teller. He was also a narcissistic criminal guilty of arson and attempted murder. He was hungry for money, power and lust. Do a deep dive and discover the truth about js, by and the lds history.
As I spent time first reading and studying The Book of Mormon what stood out to me was that each individual that wrote on the original plates (the ones Joseph Smith translated from) show different personalities, and it takes time and effort to grasp that.
Joseph Smith was an intelligent, yet largely unschooled, young man. It was a time when some people might’ve owned a Bible, but little else.
What I would say to anyone wondering about the book is,”Have you read it and studied it for yourself?” I can say that I did, and I know it’s a true book. I keep reading it over and over. Every time I do it, it brings a good feeling of peace in my house. I learn things that help me. It’s made a great difference in my life and I’m so thankful to have The Book of Mormon.
Want Truth? Read the Atmabodha by Swami Nikhlananda.
@@kirbyculp3449 Thanks for that and I’ll look into it. I recommend reading The Book of Mormon because I’ve read it and know it’s true.
@@daffodilfleurfrickin mormon bots
I heard all the stupid arguments for Joseph Smiyhs polygamy. He was protecting the widows, he was allowing righteous women to be sealed to him so they could go to the celestial kingdom… all the idiocy.
The internet has brought Truth to people about their religions and leaders.
Agreed!
girlie im ADDICTED to ur content. the only bad thing is now youtube seems to think i wanna join the mormon church because recommendations of missionaries speaking about the effing book of mormon and how it can better your relationship with god.... anyway keep slaying
I need to send you the document my husband’s great-great grandfather wrote about coming to America from Wales with Brigham Young. During the trip, at some kind of religious “festival” the men and women were separated on either side of the church by a blanket screen. Then they were asked to put their hands up and clasp the first hand on the other side…this was now their spouse. (Ordained by god) Said Great-great Grandfather and his wife happened to grasp each other’s hands and that is when they decided to leave the Mormon church. His written letter is very heart breaking, you can tell he really loved the whole movement but was very against the craziness of this practice.
That is just Fascinating story. Yikes!!!!! Thank you. Please write book novella poem or whatever to share this story. Um thank you.❤❤🎉🎉
I just got an ad for The Heritage Foundation in the middle of this video. Ironic!
I will have to check out her podcast! Im endlessly fascinated by mormon polygamy and can only ever find info about it regarding Warren Jeffs, which is a bummer because its gone on for so much longer than that.
You might want to check out the book 'Under the Banner of Heaven', about the Lafferty brothers.
@@KathyStrickland-nh9vx thank you, I will!
4:44 I thought you were going to say the church took all the money out of your account
Omg now that would be a crazzzyy story 😂
That only happens if you whistle blow on Ensign Peak.
@@alyssadgrenfellPlease do a feature on Mormon investments and how the LDS church was fined $5 million by the SEC for not reporting money to the US government.
No legit though, I thought the same 🤣
My theory is that joseph smith never had any children was that he was sterile from an untreated or untreatable STD at the time maybe neurosyphilis include symptoms of dementia, hallucinations, manic delusions, headaches, stiff necks, blindness, deafness, muscle weakness, seizures, and language impairments and possible sterility. I suspect he may have had relations before founding mormanism or contracted it from one of his wives.
he did have children, just not with any of his other wives other than Emma
@@soggyhoneycombIsn't it possible that Joseph wasn't the father of the kids that Emma gave birth to?
Emma didn't give birth to Children. The kids were adopted
@BornKafir
I was date rpd by someone at 16 . He was 34 at the time. All he did was pull out when he ejaculated. He had a girlfriend and she was pregnant. I also watched him do the same thing to another girl at the place we worked at. People can still do those things without getting someone pregnant if they are trying to hide it.
@@BornKafirOf course it's possible but not likely. Emma loved js and was dedicated to him for a long time. I am not lds but am well versed in their history and have not one iota of respect for him or their doctrine.
Thank you and Lindsay Hansen Park for this amazing installment. I love how you structured this and gave her the floor. My library declined my recommendation to buy your book -- although they do have a rich collection of ex-mo books --so this never-mo is probably going to join your vast never-mo readership soon.
This is so much worse than I thought and just disgusting to move in on someone’s wife while on mission. So awful.
This is so interesting as a poly person, because I would still never do any of this stuff. And I saw some FLDS throuples who seemed to be in happy, stable relationships, just the three of them.
Why do men use stuff like this to excuse being creepy and abusive???
I am from germany. Been stumbling over your videos recently. I feel your pain. But also your strength. I don’t say things like this often, but: you inspired me. Thank you.
Ich glaube ihr Kanal macht aktuell in Deutschland die Runde, ich weiß von drei Leuten (mich inklusive) die kürzlich auf diesen Kanal aufmerksam geworden sind
So basically Mormonism was established to give legitimacy to predation and gain access to as many women possible without repercussions, at least spiritually. Sounds perfectly normal. I mean don't all cults start this way?
The early Mormons had to build such an edifice of holiness around these rapscallions and con artists -- *no wonder this tiny backwater cult has such staying power.* If that edifice had not been tested and tested and tested, nobody would believe that shit. The cost of the upkeep of that edifice is astonishing, but makes sense in context.
Why do you think they insist on required tithing for the entrance to the celestial kingdom? They are a money focused business.
Omg... You're killing it lately! A collab with Lindsay! It's meaningless, but I'm proud to have gone to HS with her.
Murray?
@@mylesmarkson1686 yep
@@SpartacusMA1 I went to Olympus. What a beautiful area to grow up in.
"It's just a prank bro" -Joseph Smith probably
I didn't find this out until I left the org... lol
Kudos to you, Alyssa and your guest, Lindsay, for having the courage to speak out against a horrific system. Stay strong!
In 1988, I wrote a book entitled "Mormon Controversies: A Balanced Approach." (Yes, I know, Church members have been told not to use the term, but at that time, even members of the Church didn't claim the word "Mormon" was pejorative) It arose out of a comparative religions paper I had written earlier in life while in seminary studies to become a Catholic priest, because I had grown up in areas dominated by Mormons and was quite fascinated by the origins and development of the faith. What made the book unique is that for each chapter I wrote about the history, doctrines, development and scriptures of the LDS Church, there was an unrestricted response from LDS contributors, so it made for a lively exchange.
Yet as I interacted with these three devout and highly educated men, I realized they were quite unique members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I eventually termed them "Super-Brighamites," because they fully embraced two unusual doctrines promulgated by Brigham Young. The first was Plural Marriage as being absolutely necessary for exaltation. In the Journal of Discourses, Young made the following statement: "The only men who become God, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." They not only embraced it with a vengeance--they PRACTICED it. No, each was a member of the mainstream church and was legally married to only one woman. And no, they didn't have other women in their households. What they told me, on a number of occasions, is that they were being sealed to dead women so that they could qualify for and expand their Celestial Kingdoms. And I couldn't get them to verify if they were having this done in LDS Temples. One thing they did note: Their wives were not told of these sealings. I have no idea how common this might be within the Church and whether higher Church authorities are directly involved in any manner.
Second, they also fervently embraced the controversial dogma taught by Brigham Young known as the "Adam-God Doctrine." The vast majority of Mormons I have ever met know nothing about it. In short, Brigham Young taught, as sacred doctrine, that the God of our earth and one of his celestial wives took on a "veil of forgetfulness" and came to earth to live as Adam and Eve. The Fall came about as a plan to allow humanity to be able to progress to Exaltation. Having accomplished their mission, they returned to their Celestial Kingdom. Later, Adam-God came to the Virgin Mary and physically fathered Jesus Christ so that he could carry out his mission of salvation.
It did surprise me that they would embrace Brigham's views, because they were strongly disputed by and even condemned by later Church authorities. They recommended a book to me, which I astonishingly found in the Temple Bookstore in Mesa, Arizona. It is entitled "The Adam-God Maze," by Dr. Culley K. Christensen and was published in 1981. It is an over 300-page book which details EVERY reference and teaching Brigham Young made on this doctrine. There is zero doubt that he taught and promoted this doctrine, and also taught that it was revealed by revelation to both Joseph Smith and himself.
I am wondering if you are aware of this form of plural marriage still being practiced in the Church, and whether the Adam-God doctrine was accepted by anyone you knew while involved in the Church.
W O W, your comment is so incredibly interesting, really! thanks!
Same, this set of rituals just keeps getting deeper and deeper into murky waters that have no bottom
Power and sex by deceit. It’s the Mormon way.
And money.
My sister's best friend was brought up a moron and hated it and always stated a soon as she was old enough she would leave home and leave the moron faith. She said her family was forcing her to go to Utah (we live in UK). She went because she loved her family.
2 years later she came back married and loved the moron faith and tried to talk my sister into moronism.
She wasn't the same person who left England two years earlier. We believe she was brainwashed by the church.
My sister never had anything to do with her soon afterwards.
As a Christian I get so annoyed when people say God commanded polygomy. False. Man decided to do this practice. Never did God give it the thumbs up. Leviticus is all about how God did not want Israelites to practice heathen practices like others. Solomon fell because he had so many wives which convinced him in Idoltory. And he was the wisest man on the planet. If God approved why did he appear to appose it in the NT? God never changes his mind. Not like the Mormons who changed their minds and said God changed so much. Great exposure about this vile man and this false religion.
It's so cute when people think their own religion isn't false but someone else's is. I used to think like that as well when I was 14.
As an Ex-Muslim, I suggest you learn your religion from neutral sources. There's nothing true about the New Testament Christianity either.
They're all made up by humans. Each and every single one.
Except scientology, of course. Hail Xenu.
So glad you said that. I had an ongoing discussion via comments with a man praising polygamy and trying to convince me it was of God. He was so brainwashed, hard headed and blind, nothing I presented (from the Bible) would convince him God doesn't condone it. When these men get it in their mind they fight tooth and nail to not let go.
There are many stories of various kings and others in the Bible having multiple wives and even concubines. So, your statement does not hold any water.
@@tomdebevoise Curious as to what doesn't hold water. I feel your statement is unclear.
Guess King David was an awful person and going to hell based on the Biblical account of all his wives and concubines. Have you read the Bible?
Oh damn, you're new to youtube and your subscriber count is so high. Effin gratz man, that's awesome.
Wonderful content! It's fun going through the comments section and reading the Mormon apologists coping mental gymnastics
I have officially watched too much of your content. Just had LDS ad, and yours is the only related content I watch.
😂 same for me, but three ex-LDS content creators ago 😂😂😂
I'm so glad you had Lindsey Hansen Park on - she is so fascinating and inspiring.
@@jcg03002 My ex-Mo friend had personal dealings with Lindsey Park. (My friend went to Park for help and Park was a snobby bitch--- too busy to even talk. Park is a plastic phony.)
My coworkers roommate is a pipe fitter and his current job is at the Mormon temple in la jolla! he said it's one of the weirdest and most beautiful places hes ever been in
They do that purposely.
I just finished the 3rd installment - this is a truly amazing work, one for the ages. In terms of scope, honesty, candor. Life changing - I can't think of a better compliment as I wipe away my tears. Thank you, both.
It was really all about the opportunity for endless sex.
A few weeks ago I finally finished A Year of Polygamy podcast. I really appreciate the work Lindsay has done!
Why do Mormons tenaciously hang on to Joseph Smith? Mormanism ultimately rises or falls on his credibility.
Because Smith invented the Mormon church, that's why. I they were to dispose of him, it would not be called Mormon anymore
I appreciate you two young women so much! You are articulate and very well versed in both history and in your own understanding of what it true. I have zero connection to the Mormon faith but did escape a cult and live with my history of sexual abuse. Listening to your conversation is healing and inspiring. You ladies are changing the world. All best wishes for your continued growth and reaching others with your valuable messages. Thank you. Brava!
I LOVE listening to Lindsay Hansen Park!!! Thanks!!
Can you do a story about Brigham Young? To me he's even nastier than Joseph Smith.
I'm still learning about Mormonism, but I do get the impression that BY was even worse than JS
I was in my late teens when I first heard of Joseph Smith. Because I'm not morman, I never really heard good things about him. It's not surprising to me that he was like this...but how bad it was does surprise me. I feel so bad for these women who are used even now by people as examples of "good morman women" when they were victims. Thank you both for sharing.
Just, wow. Watch to the very end. What an extraordinary conversation. As an ex Mormon I knew a lot of that, but not in such granular detail. Incredibly eye opening. And the emotional and psychological context the two of you provided... very moving. Thank you. 🙏
I agree. The end was especially amazing! What a powerful conversation ❤. These ladies are amazing!
Its WILD a religion was formed around a guy with a fondness for fraud and gimmicks.
And pedophilia
Not that wild. Pretty much all (or maybe all) cults are built on gimmicks and fraud. They use identical or at least similar methods, such as lovebombing, secrecy, rewards based on level of belief, penalties/ threat of shunning, coercion, etc.
Not unheard of, unfortunately. Most of us modern Protestants have had our faith remade by the Scofield Bible, the product of conman C.I. Scofield. Trying to return to the uncorrupted root.
@@TDC7594Yes.
I'm becoming strangely addicted to this content. Suggestion for a topic: Arthur Conan Doyle's depiction of Mormonism in his first Sherlock Holmes story, "A Study in Scarlet." That was my first introduction to it.
King David sent Uriah away so he could marry Bathsheeba. Joe Smith just did the same with missions. 😮
That was David not Solomon.
Pretty big time skip between several thousand years before christ and joeseph smith.
@@ashleydanielson3222 Thank you. Editing.
@@goober-ey7mx Even bigger between King David and Joe Smith. But it was a story Smith would know, so he was clearly inspired.
@@drtaverner quiet braindead.
You are empowering women. I’ve been able to talk with my husband more about why I feel certain ways as I do, and while he still believes in it far more than I do, he is understanding more and more of my perspective.
I was less than because I was not LDS in central rural Utah in the 90’s. I was the scapegoat, I was the outcast, I was anything but worthy of friends or love. Unless I converted. Then I would be a wonderful person that everyone could feel good about spending time with without worry of “falling from grace”… it “didn’t matter if I believed or even attended, all that mattered was that I was a member”. I asked if all that mattered was that I was a number, and they responded that yup, as long as I was a number I was a good person… and that’s not to even mention the “purity culture” that basically ruined any self esteem or self worth when I was constantly called “chewed gum” or “licked cupcake” unknowingly because they had no clue that I was being sexually molested (because no one would listen or believe me when I told them)… I still struggle with that to this day. Elisabeth Smart is another good example of purity culture….
I was so happy to move out of Utah to Alaska where the LDS presence was not so heavy, it was easier to feel like people actually wanted to be there instead of it being what was expected. No one batted an eye at my locs, my tattoos and piercings… and then my “good Mormon” ex husband had an affair and I had to come back to Utah… it’s been uncomfortable to say the least… especially now that I’m back in that small rural town where everyone remembers the rumors and gossip from so long ago…
Wish I could come see you speak Alyssa, but I don’t think I’ll be able to make it to Salt Lake from Sanpete County. 💔
Your video are so interesting and well made!! So engaging. Can't wait for more
I have a Mormon friend who tried converting me early in our friendship. Finally, I told him I'd become a staunch Atheist, and we've settled into an armistice of sorts, where I allow him to be a Mormon and he allows me to be an Atheist. That we're still friends after four decades speaks to his open-mindedness, given the intense pressure the Church puts on recruiting fresh meat.
For the $$$$. That's y they want big families
As a Christian myself, I feel Lindsay's last point. Church is a very ambiguous place for me etc
That being said, what is even in LDS when you remove all the Mormonism (I.e. Joseph Smith, the book of mormon and the other books, the doctrines etc)?
You have a random non-denominational congregation with a couple non-Nicean beliefs (godhead etc), theres no need to keep going to LDS other than emotional attachment to a personal past
I get so many LDS ads ever since I started watching your content, not just on TH-cam but on Facebook as well.
She has a video on Mormon church ads and influencers that will explain why it happens
In Iowa where the Mormon Battalion formed. Women could not buy but could inherit land from deceased males who owned land. However Iowa didn't contribute anything to the Mexican war except the Mormon battalion who left the state so it's a mute point.
I was raised Mormon in the South, and i have thoughts about it I've only shared with a therapist. While I'm on the rolls, the best way to describe my views towards the church, and especially, its leadership, is "irreconcilable differences." Both of you touched on some important points. We all have stories. We've all seen some very messed up things. As for my current views, the Quakers (Friends General Conference) look pretty good.
Reminds me of my own experience researching early American history, and seeing the contrast between the evidence, and the lds talking points. I put it away on the shelf at the time because of the dilemma implying either U.S. governance was somehow worse than British governance, or Joseph lied. Now that I'm officially exmo, I can finally look back with clarity and say with confidence Joseph lied, period.
2:40 Well, that's interesting. I was taught a similar reason for the poligamy, but with a different cause for the male deaths.
I was taught that the men were being killed because of persecution from everyone else who was against the church and chasing them out of the places they lived (i was taught this was the reason they had to keep moving west).
Interesting how the story behind it isn't quite consistent... As if people started with a similar story but were trying to justify after the fact.
Wonder whoch version is more widly told, and whether one version might be told more in certain regions than the other.
This is what I was taught. I live in California gold country, so we learned a lot about the Mormon battalion, we knew how many died in the war.
Omgosh, I LOVE what Lindsay explained at the end, about how we are suffering from generational trauma and how we heal. I needed to hear that!
Ex-Mormons "our religion is horrible. Look at this." Ex Muslims "Our religions is worse... look at this."
I was raised essentially non-religious (Unitarian, my mom called it the "Un-Church", i didn't know we were supposedly Christian until i was an adult) so different types of fundamentalism has always fascinated me.
You said in another video that you don't use the word "cult" and in this video you both went out of your way to be as compassionate as possible to Mormons even though you've left and are saying some incredibly inflammatory things. I'm just very impressed with how you walk that line, and seeing the two of you in conversation about all of this, your approach feels very Mormon in a way i can't put my finger on as a non-Mormon.
The way you both talk about leaving as not just walking away is something i hear from different fundamentalists a lot, but each seems to have its own "flavor." People outside (like me) need this reminder, so thank you for that. Best of luck to both of you.
I love LHP so much. Thanks for bringing her on. She is so intelligent.
This is a good explanation of the historical development of this community. Especially for non-mormon outsiders who care about about the people. It is basically slavery for women. Black women in tge U.S. experienced a similar type of victimization. They often find value in having many children and raising them alone or with other women, in poverty, without males. Lots of unhealthy trauma-bonding that requires psychological treatment. An American tragedy. I would like to read more about the FM connection.
Thank you for your videos. I appreciate your story and your evolution.
❤ hello my friend. Justice past week I found you. I enjoy your videos. Your delivery and presentation is very professional and pleasing. I myself am a strong Christian but I'm always looking for the truth in all things. And I feel you bring much truth.
I have a dear friend who is in Utah and a Mormon. I have known him for many years and have had concerns about his beliefs and the possibility that he could be being guided in troubling ways.
Several years ago I visited him in Salt Lake City. We visited one of the larger temples downtown. For reference it had large glass walls looking outside to the grounds.
We took our time to visit the displays and reviewed the short movie outlining Joseph Smith and the beginning of the Mormon religion
When the narrator described Joseph Smith's first vision in the forest, he quoted Joseph Smith describing that vision
He related that Joseph Smith stated that when he first saw The apparition he had a very dark feeling and saw many dark things.
He kind of made it sound like it was very demonic what he felt at first when the beings appeared.
I was very troubled by this and felt that anything that was truly of God would never give you any kind of a darkness feeling or demonic feeling in any way even though he said it did pass
I was shocked that the film would state this fact in any way, because It seemed so troubling and also so revealing of the true origination of the mormon church.
Have you ever heard this aspect of the first vision mentioned.
I have joined your patron. And I appreciate and support you
Sincerely yours, Kevin P ❤
Off topic, but another conservative ad popped up while watching one of your videos. It’s for parents who homeschool. The man speaking is wearing a shirt with “I will not co-parent with the government” on it.
Homeschooling outcomes can range from amazing to atrocity, depending on the parents. With that T-shirt, I'm leaning to atrocity.
Credit is due to such a historical, open minded and balanced approach to understand the history despite it's obvious painful aspects. Not a super religious individual, but think it is very important to understand our history so we don't repeat the mistakes.
Isn't the lack of children from any of his plural wives odd?
Or a sign of secondary infertility and part of why he kept trying new wives. They wouldn't have a clue back then, and he probably thought it was the women.
There are references have seen where the women were sent to a house in the compound run by his doctor to receive treatment. There were well known herbs to induce miscarriages and he was covering his bases.
I remember reading recently that a surprising number of the women were quite a bit older than Joseph Smith, so some of them may well have been peri-/post-menopausal
Lindsay Hansen Park, Well done! This was informative. I appreciate your discussion of the oppression and abuse these women and families endure(d).
Great job ! Both of you ! Thank you !
Loved all of this, especially the beautiful and nuanced discussion of deconstruction at the end!
Don't all Mormans know that he had a million wives? Do they just not talk about that?
I would say most only find it out when they are adults and digging into the history of what really happened is pretty discouraged. When you ask questions about it people will often say, "we need to focus our attention on the savior" or something like that.
They don’t. They hide it from active members and leaders control the entire narrative. Only once you start doing the research you find the truth and the church also discourages members from searching for that truth
@@alyssadgrenfellThey actively turn their heads when they are told the truth. If they lose their religion they have nothing because that's what they have built their lives around.
I think young people would be less inclined to follow purity culture if they knew this part of their history.
I've been enjoying your videos thank you so much for sharing your stories and collaborating with others to share their stories. I also love that most of your content focuses on information about the Mormon church. I am not Mormon, but I am ex-fundamentalist evangelical and it takes a lot of work to deconstruct life-long, generational beliefs. Thank you for sharing your work and your research!
1:11:50 ish wow. That speech abput the tenacity of your ancestors really spoke to me. Mine were Mennonites (fundamentalist abd isolationist. Related but not the same as the Amish) and their is do much conflict on my family about their belifes and the way they lived and should we hounour that religion knowing all the harm it can cause. The way you described the belife and tenacity of your anecestors reminded me of mine. Going form germany to poland to russia to canada facing real persecution along the way. Narrowly escaping genocide. Thank you for that way of thinking about my ancestors
I have a daughter in law who has drank the Mormon coolaid and cannot be talked to logically about it. It's very frustrating. It is mind boggling that this cult has so many followers. Why???
He was originally from Vermont and was known as the town drunk before he was booted out. I only know this because I lived down the road from his hometown
He was kicked out of Independence, Missouri just 20 miles from me.
@@tomw.6757 sounds like nobody liked him, probably because he tried to take ALL of the women in each town for himself.
@@bikerider4326 he was just a grade A weirdo. And that's even by the standards at the time which were pretty loose.
I wonder if this pops up in Mormonism.
I grew up in right wing evangelical Christianity, and my parents and other faith leaders seem completely unaware of all the issues that exist in the Christian faith tradition.
They also seem averse to learning about those issues.
I wonder if Mormons are the same about polygamy and other issues specific to Mormonism.
Yes I've seen a lot of people in the comments and on mormon stories etc where they say they were never taught any of this.
It's hard to convince someone of facts when they have authority, status, or wealth riding on the lie.
"I am an ancestor of Joseph Smith!" says everyone in Utah and Idaho.
You are so great!!! Sorry coming on our show didn't work out....Maven's moved on now so I hope you will respond to my latest email!😀😀