eevBLAB 111 - The TMA Banning x1/x10 Switchable Probes?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 มิ.ย. 2024
- The Test and Measurement Alliance have announced an effective ban on x1/x10 switchable scope probes with all new oscilloscopes going forward from Q3 2023. Do you agree?
Signatories include practically every oscilloscope manufacturer! Keysight, Tektronix, Rohde & Schwarz, Lecroy, GW Instek, Siglent, Rigol, National Instruments, Hantek, Owon, Micsig and PicoScope.
tm-alliance.org/blog/2023-03-31/
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UPDATE: I heard from the TMA and this is their response:
Response to Concerns Regarding the Ban on Switchable Probes
Dear valued engineers and industry professionals,
We, at the Test and Measurement Alliance (TMA), appreciate the concerns raised by many of you regarding our recent decision to ban x1/x10 switchable oscilloscope probes. We understand that this decision may initially appear restrictive, as switchable probes have been popular among users for their perceived versatility. However, we would like to take this opportunity to provide a comprehensive explanation of our decision and address your concerns.
Our primary objective at TMA is to ensure that we provide the most reliable, accurate, and user-friendly test and measurement solutions to our customers. Our decision to ban switchable probes was based on a thorough analysis of their limitations and potential risks. We believe that the benefits of fixed x1 and x10 probes outweigh the perceived advantages of switchable probes, and we would like to outline our reasoning as follows:
Improved Accuracy: Switchable probes can lead to incorrect readings when users forget to adjust the oscilloscope settings to match the probe configuration. Fixed probes enable auto-detection, eliminating this risk and ensuring more accurate measurements.
Simplified User Experience: The elimination of switchable probes reduces the likelihood of user error and streamlines the oscilloscope setup, making it easier for engineers to focus on their work and obtain reliable results.
Enhanced Reliability: Fixed x1 and x10 probes are less prone to wear and tear due to the absence of a switch mechanism, resulting in a longer lifespan and reduced need for replacements.
Better Signal Integrity: Fixed probes can provide better signal integrity and more accurate measurements by minimizing the risk of attenuation or distortion caused by poor switch contact or impedance mismatches.
Reduced Manufacturing Costs: By focusing on fixed x1 and x10 probes, manufacturers can reduce the number of components in their bill of materials (BOM) and lower production costs, ultimately providing more cost-effective solutions to customers.
While we acknowledge that switchable probes have been popular in the past, we believe that the benefits of fixed probes far outweigh their perceived versatility. We have taken this decision with the best interests of our customers and the industry in mind. As we continue to innovate and develop new test and measurement solutions, we will always prioritize safety, accuracy, and user experience above all else.
We hope that our response has provided clarity on our decision to ban switchable probes. We appreciate your feedback and are committed to engaging in open dialogue with industry professionals. If you have any further concerns or questions, please feel free to reach out to us.
Sincerely, Dexter Reed
Chief Engineer
Who is this Dexter Reed? I thought the TMA's Chief Engineer was Dr. Brown. 😉
@@HwAoRrDk His profile is on the website, seems legit, and looks like he knows what he's talking about.
I notice the bit they don't tell you, they have worked out they'll make more money if they supply a single fixed one and require you to go buy another one. Twice the markup and eliminate the cost of the switching components.
Now we'll just have to remember to unplug and plug in different probes instead of pushing a slide switch. It's not April 1st yet, is it?
@@crispy_otter Had me going there for a while - it's not even the 1st yet here in New Zealand!
Why sell one switchable probe, when you can sell 2 non-switchable probes.
I hear that's also how you reduce environmental impact! /s
100%
Exactly.
Oh, I've been around the internets to know how this story goes:
just the first step towards the PaaS (probe-as-a-service), with monthly subscription cost that now unlocks 10x/100x modes! We use less physical probes and are thus more environmentally friendly!
(-_-)
Reminds me of the "1st rule in government spending" from the "Contact" movie. (Still a good watch, by the way).
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
The good thing about standards is there are so many from which to choose. (Rearranged so the preposition isn't at the end of the sentence.)
Including low standards. Such as the standard of your English grammar!
@@SpeccyMan nick, there is no need to be such a toxic person for preposition at the end of the sentence. Relax it's yt not English grammar class.
To quote Churchill: "This is a situation up with which I will not put."
Insert the obligatory xkcd comic
@@SpeccyMan Yet the original sentence was still understood, so who cares? If lecturing people gives you such a charge, perhaps you should spend your time tutoring English instead of insulting TH-cam commenters.
Here at the TSA we will now be announcing a new x0 probe to replace all probes, the x0 probe is wireless and has a zero BOM cost. It also has infinate versatility allowing users to probe any supply voltage they want from 0 volts to 21 gigavolts assuming a correct wireless distance is given. Probes will also have no opportunity for user error as they are fixed to 0V and will always be 0V
Note that you'll still need to calibrate them carefully, otherwise the reading may vary slightly from 0V
You fool!!
I LOVE THE IDEA!
Shut up and take my money!!!
At no charge, you get a bonus feature: reduced screen burn-in, since plotting the signal takes zero phosphor (nor LCD, for you newfangled types).
Environmental: Now you'll get bundles of 1x probes that come with the scopes unused and thrown away.
Cost: They can bump up prices as they can now include a full set of 1x /and/ 10x probes! (Or supply you with 10x and charge a fortune for the 1x's)
Plus half these points they just repeated with a rephrase. :)
I hate switchable probes due the issue @unknowhours pointed out. I think it's up to the operator to replace the probes to suitable ones (fixed ones).
I just super glued the switch to x1 position. When ever I need a x1 probe i use the delivered ones. when I need x10 or even x100 attenuation I use probes from a third party.
I'm with you about the environmental issue. It's sad to get something delivered and to just throw it away. I think manufacturers should give a choice of bundle, e.g. "get your scope with x1 or x10". I bet x10 will be the top seller.
Well, they can talk and announce and tell their concerns till hell freezes over.
Let's just give a sh. about their patronizing ambitions towards us users.
There will be enough test equipment producers who are NOT in this oligopoly club and who will gladly take their opportunity to produce and sell what the customer wants to buy. @beamfinder: Very nice ... that you hate something. But what others use or love is just not your business ... it is your opinion (Although this may be just because of your wording and was not your intention ... then sorry for that).
P.S.: I don't hate it, but it is very sad that you fell for their marketing mumbo jumbo BS. With EVERYTHING in this effing universe there is ALWAYS pros and cons. When if not now is the time to use your ability of critical thinking? Isn't it obvious if the seller of a product wants you to do something, that there aren't altruistic motives behind that move? Read their horrible framing yourself. There are only ONE-SIDED and sketchy arguments in their press release or response.
At least we should take this very serious and fight over it to the blood!!!
Because only our own opinions are valid and not the of the others.
(Especially the opinion that in Australia it is the 1. April, when here still it is the 31. March ... hehehehehe)
Compare this (from now, as the time of writing this comment):
Time in Germany: 23:11 31. March
Time in New York, NY, USA : 17:11 Friday, 31 March 2023 (GMT-4)
Time in Canberra ACT, Australia: 08:11 Saturday, 1 April 2023 (GMT+11)
He got us!
TMA is one of those things like IPC. Ten years ago, you never heard of it, but now it's impossible to get a job without their certification.
They just made themselves up, inserted themselves as experts on whatever, and declared themselves king. Instrument manufacturers hop on board because it helps keep their prices inflated, and keeps smaller players out of the game.
so it's a win-win for everybody as expected with all cartels. Antitrust should disband TMA
Yeah, it's frightening how much power they hold, considering they were created today.
The Managerial Revolution by James Burnham
Overproduction of Elites by Peter Turchin
@@marcogenovesi8570 That was my first as well. Manufacturers colluding to all stop selling a product is as textbook an antitrust case as I've ever seen. Only eclipsed by colluding to raise prices.
This is probably the backstory for about 90% of 'peak industry bodies'
Not to worry, Aliexpress will surely help out.
They already have. :)
Yeah, no quality issues to worry about there 🙄
It's easy to forget it's already April 1st in Australia :)
Nice one Dave, your really went all out with the fake website... I really like the Woz Chief Prankster in About Us :)
Many years ago he made a joke video about atmel/pic programmer as aprils fools video, but this days this is truth because Microchip acquired Atmel.
Oh damn... the website is quite legit, it even has a certificate but the alliance address can't be found in google maps neither. You got me :)
This is brilliant
The fact that they were in California made it more believable.
This is genius Dave, it really is. 1640 Riverside Drive and all. The fact that it wasn't on Google was what tipped me.
But he posted too soon!
This was early even for Australia
everyone seems to be falling for it. myself included...
I totally fell for it. I manually typed in the web address and was like 'looks legit'. But then if you look deeper there's barely anything else there on the site. And the people at the bottom of the about us page, Bob Finger - Chief People Officer and Woz Wizard - Chief Prankster. Brilliant.
It's not genius, it's stupid. Especially when you can tell that it's a crappy supposed-to-be-joke from the very first seconds of the video.
I just spoke to an engineer there, Alf Ripool. The new probes are going to be made with RF triaxial cable and triax BNC instead of regular coax. Apparently this will allow for automatic identification of x1 / x10 depending on how the extra shield is wired. Seems a costly solution to me.
Well, if they start using Triax, it will make simple compatibility with older oscilloscopes impossible, reductions will be necessary, and I'm not talking about the price of Triax connectors at all. If this happens, we will properly pay extra.
With triax cabling the scope can just read both signals and pick whichever one gives the best waveform
Costly, but sensible.
And will mean having to use adapters in order to use all your old equipment.
Triaxial cable? Why? A simple contact on the connector would suffice. No need to connect anything else up to the probe itself.
Whenever I use a switchable probe, there's a about a 20% chance that I accidentally switched it to the wrong one without noticing.
Yeah just don't provide any options for normal user so that dumb users can't do wrong 😂
This move is just dumb not providing options and charging extra for basics
Anyone saying that he never had the probe in the incorrect position is either lying or didn't use the scope very often.
The cheap ones (at least) have a removable plastic knob on the switch. Pull it off and use a small screwdriver to switch it over.
Kinda hard to not notice your reading is off by an order of magnitude.
@@GlennHamblin More to be worried about is that you put your 1x probe on 3000V while your scope wants 400v max. It is that faulty moment, not a misreading.
Another great victory for TMA and engineers worldwide! 🙏🙏
Nice to see you here, Keysight. Question for your legal department: Exactly how does this not constitute a violation of the Sherman anti-trust act as a conspiracy in restraint of trade?
OK. You got me. April fools.
This is just the start, the real goal is to put DRM in each probe so it is tied to the individual instrument. I hear manufacturers are very worried about the uptick in high-end equipment found in dumpsters and want to make sure it is not reusable.
Put a little I2C EEPROM in each probe! They would of course need to stop using BNC connectors then.
@@DorperSystems they can still use BNC connectors for the main signal lines and just have a separate connector for the EEPROM chip.
@@conorstewart2214 as long as the scope uses a BNC connector, I can simply disconnect the EEPROM pins so that the scope does not know what I have connected.
Only by using a propriety connector can the scope manufacturer prevent unauthorized probes - which would be stupid on many levels.
@@sarowie Don't give them ideas.
@@sarowie except they could make having an eeprom connected a requirement for that channel of the scope to work. Having some form of identification in place doesn't require proprietary or even just having a single connector, they could still make the eeprom required even though they may use two separate connectors. They could even store all probe settings and specs in the eeprom so you can't change them on the scope itself. Or just make the eeprom connector itself proprietary.
It wouldn't be hard to make the scope not work if just the BNC was connected and not the eeprom.
Great. More probes. Exactly what I need.
Edit: I admit. You got me. But it's a day early!
Not in Australia it isn't...
@@merseyviking - it is 10:03pm on 31st March as I type this.
Dave must be on a promise tonight, and going to bed early 😅
@@johncoops6897 Ah! I should have done the maths. Still, I detect the hand of ChatGPT in this.
@@merseyviking I am in Australia, it's still 31st even here 😂
@@SidewaysCytlan 🤦
for me it's usually 90% of the time in the 10x position and 10% of the time it's accidentally switched to 1x 😀
Well done Dave, this is brilliant ! Took me a few minutes.
As long as that?
@@Graham_Langley have you see the blatant rent-seeking they do with printers? fully compliant with poe's law.
This took me a minute. Well done. :)
Ha - you almost had me! Another classic, Dave - bravo!
On the environmental thing - surely better to have a single switchable probe than separate x1 and x10 probles?!
I'd quite like a x1/x10/100 probe personally.
And what to think of all them 10's of millions of probes going to waste every year, since "everybody" on the planet uses them and ditch them weekly....🤣🤣🤣😉..Makes no sense...
Wtf? Environmental costs of something like is mindbogglingly miniscule. You should probably stop breathing and it'd make more impact.
That's what I was thinking too. Having a x1 and x10 seems like it is worse for mother Earth then a combo one.
No one's going to buy a 1x probe. They'll just plug in a BNC cable.
EDIT: I keep forgetting that Oz is one day ahead of the rest of us. Well played, Dave.
Took me a bit, silly Australian timezones... Dave you are always the first with these particular date based videos 😊
I was waiting for it today this year, but almost started to doubt it when he showed an actual website that exists. He really put in some effort this time around :)
It’s 10pm here where Dave is. Not April 1st yet. But the website is indeed a prank. Right on time for New Zealanders.
The video has been published a few hours too early.
When that many companies get involved to ban a product instead of of iterating on the concept to address the underlining issues which could result in products to sell then it's likely a protective racket. Probably somebody has patents so perhaps a patent troll. This is likely the repeat of the Red Camera patent on
"RED’s patent is for compression on a camera of RAW video. You cannot compress 4K or higher RAW on a camera without RED’s blessing and if you try - they will sue you.”
I recently ditched a switchable. It was a cheaper one, and it would switch too easily. It has been replaced with a fixed 10x. For my purposes it's fine, I never have a problem with too weak signal, with what I measure rarely being below a volt, up to the high voltage stuff where it suddenly switching could be an issue.
I do really like the 'environmental impact' point of their list of advantages. Yeah sure, now labs will have to stock up on both 1x and 10x probes, I'm sure one set with a switch is more environmetally impactful than two sets without :P.
Meh, I think the environmental point is just meaningless virtue signaling. Surely selling 8 non-switchable probes for a 4 channel oscilloscope is worse for the environment than selling 4 switchable probes and possibly 1 or 2 replacements if they break. Edit: I might have missed your sarcasm. :P
It doesn't matter what you actually do all you have to do is say you're environmentally friendly. The term is meaningless but it does help you sell more products.
We've all done it. I marked my switches with red paint so it's obvious when they are in X1 mode. But its such a handy feature when I have a really small signal and I'm not interested in changing probes to do this.
I had one of them glued shut in x10 position.
I changed over from x1/x10 to fixed x100 probes early last year.
Superior dynamic range with increased input protection.
@@ralfstocker7742 Noise land.
I've certainly had issues with switchable probes before from forgetting to switch back to x10 to dodgy switches on old heavily used probes but I don't really get this, feels like they're removing the "impossible to waterproof" headphone jack to cut costs and trying to sell it as a feature, especially with the generic "environmental responsibility" non-sense, maybe stay on the lookout for expensive switchable probes with Bluetooth auto-detect being released Q3 2023?
My main problem is the bundled probes are almost always the cheapest option purely because they're the most common models with a huge step in price to anything else, currently dedicated x1 probes are rarely purchased because the bundled switchable ones are good enough for the few measurements I do that need it, I hope they will reduce the cost of the entry-level x1 probes to compensate for this but I have a lot of doubts that will happen. I also wonder if they will discontinue the cheap bundled switchable probes and re-release them with a different model number for twice the price.
Will be interesting to see if say a 4 channel oscilloscope start being bundled with three x10 probes and one x1 probe, I wouldn't be completely against that, dedicated x1 probes are generally much better and I don't think I've ever needed more than a single x1 probe for 99% of testing scenarios but I don't think you could get away with not supply a x10 probe for every channel (of course talking about general purpose scopes not the expensive ones that are BYO 10 GHz active probes).
And I must wonder if this has anything to do with the massive surge in EV electronics development, I bet there's quite a few people who have been probing high voltage EV stuff just within the limits of the bundled probes and forgot to check their probe was in x10 or knocked the switch and POP! there goes your scope's front end.
New with built in tiny batteries that can't be replaced so you need to buy new ones very year or so..
Ironically sony (that introduced waterproofing into the mainstream) is still making waterproof phones with a headphone jack and a microsd slot
This sounds for me more like they want to sell you 2x the amount of probes.
Perhaps a probe can be designed with a "x10 head" which slides over the end or is an optional tip. Then they could be different colors to indicate which one they are. I think that would be better.
I've been into electronics for almost 15 years, whereof 7 year professionally. I've still not once set an oscilloscope probe in x1 other than by mistake.
So I fully support this. 🤷
If they are changing the spec, how about introducing a fuse into the ground line? It would have saved quite a few meltdowns at work.
I gotta admit, you got me at first Dave. Well played. Happy April Fools everyone. The address shown on their website is what gives it away. Lol
Better quality probes (such as the low capacitance Tektronix) tend not to be switchable, probably due to the signal integrity reason they call out.
That said: I have no real issue with major brand switchable probes I have used in the past, but rarely use them unless I'm testing something in the mV range.
Everyone a heads up, I just updated the firmware on my Rigol oscilloscope and after restart it immediately detected that my 1x/10x probes were connected. An error message popped up on the screen that all functions are disabled until I swap to non-switchable probes!
I just updated the firmware on my Tektronix 475 and did that too.
@@chevylization 475 or 475A?
Wow, this decision is so ahead of its time. Can't wait to see what possibilities it opens up for all of us tomorrow
It is the kind of announcement you'll only see once a year!
next, they'll make scopes only work with probes made by the scopes manufacturer. to protect us, of course.
@@jankcitycustoms They exist to do the opposite.
Dave is in Australia.
April fools joke
I want to see extensive training materials regarding the use of switching probes. It better be an hour long minimum with a quiz at the end!
I called to talk to the Chief Engineer, Dexter Reed, but was told he had left quite some time ago. Specifically June 18, 2011. So I asked for Mr. Finger in the HR department where a recording said he had also left, but made a disparaging remark about "Digital Engineers". There was also someone in the background eating an apple and snickering.
Then I remembered the time difference between the UK and Australia...
Dave always publishes these a bit too early.
He has to get his beauty sleep 😅
It doesn't get rid of the autodetection problem though, it just makes it more difficult for users. Nothing in this says they're adding detection capabilities, which would actually be really nice.
Instead, they're making something that takes a few seconds to toggle into something that will take substantially more time. And that's assuming you know where the other probes are..
Sounds like it's already April in Australia ...
My ProbeMaster switchable probes actually _do_ change the resistance on the readout pin, so my vintage Tektronix oscilloscopes (e.g. my 2465B) _do_ detect the switch position (in real time).
What's the model number of the probe please?
Nobody else seems to be familiar with that Tektronix probe 'trick'.
@@Brian_Of_Melbourne
Looks like my reply was deleted. Try looking for model 4902-2RA or similar.
I thought about visiting them personally to give them a piece of my mind, but I'd have to go back to the future to do it.
In the former Czechoslovakia in the last century, non-switchable probes were supplied to oscilloscopes from the manufacturer Tesla (the name is a combination of two words TEchnika SLAboproudá), I have a lot of opponents of switchable probes in my area, I kind of got used to them, but many times an unwanted switch happened to me. For me, it's okay to start producing only fixed probes, but if they start using TRIAX for detection instead of classic BNC as someone wrote here, it's a massacre in the form of an increase in price and the need for additional BNC/TRIAX reductions, normal resolution in the form of a BNC connector with ground by contact, see Tektronix and other brands work well.
Nice day 🙂THEdison
Will this new probes have a deployable calendar? 😉
Their Chief People Officer seems to have the right qualifications.
Should bring out switchable X1 X1000, amplify all those concerns.
There's nothing like occidentally shoving a few KV from a colour CRT up the X1 front end of your scope.
Where I worked, someone did it with a high end Tectonics, pretty well wrote off that plugin, it arced though the switch wafers, it was not good.
Probes introduce too much variance anyway. I always use 8 AWG bare copper wires instead.
Pretty elaborate and well made, my hat's off to you, Dave!
If not for the date this would have seemed almost plausible. Did GPT make the website or at least write the text?
That was a goog one. I honestly belived that the news are legit!
I just realized I have fell for this, good one Dave.
This has to be your best timely overview of something crazy yet, it really got me scared but I feel like I will learn to live the way it will be. Good one, every single one of these videos have made me look like a fool!
TMA has been around for a while in the radio business but was recently renamed. It had been the All RF Pool.
do they ship with twice amount of probes? You can still pick wrong probe from the box
This is a good news.
The only times I use x1 on the (few) x1/x10 probes I have, is when I accidentally switch them that way.
I came here LOOKING for this!
I've only ever had issues with cheap probe switches, which is usually that they slip to the other position by accident. Switching between separate probes to get x1 or x10 measurements as needed sounds like a total pain compared to using a half decent probe with a switch that doesn't slip easily. In terms of wear and tear, in my experience the typical failure mode of a probe is that the cable fails at the probe end from regular flexing, not the switch. And safety... well, if you're not "thinking" before you probe something HV, I'd argue your scope's frontend is the least of your worries!
Moreover, why does it take an alliance-wide "ban" to make this happen - I'm sure nothing has been preventing the individual companies selling fixed probes for years if they saw fit? It seems anticompetitive.
Right, this is cartel to force selling of more probes by making people require buting multiple ones rather than using good quality switches.
And today's date is??? Well done Dave.
2023/03/31 - for another 21.5 hours yet. Dave always jumps the shark - every f'ing year he's a whole day early
Nice. The address really gave it away. Well done.
This channel has the best comments on YT. What a great bunch of people. Good channel, good subscribers (for the most part)
Funny, after I bought a scope like 15 years ago, just 2 weeks later I bought two fixed 10x probes. The supplied switchable probes were just to easy to switch into 1x while handling them and I just needed the bandwith and low capacitance (and therefore influence on the observed signal) more than the 1x setting. Even today for the rare occasion where I want or can get away with 1x probing, I prefer just a clip lead to bnc cable instead of a probe.
Wow, the Kikusui cos 5060 I got donated from my rf ee father came with a Bic biro tube with copper tip, shielded cable and a bnc on the end for a probe. I thought that was janky so I bought some cheap 1/10x probes to learn to fly it with. If I’m concerned about the switches, I guess I’ll just super glue them to 1x or 10x
hot-glue !! super glue will probably run/leak into the switch and fudge it up . . .
@@tristanmckibben2504 bloody good point Tristan. Hot snot ftw 👍
I have a lot of switchable probes in my lab.... Cause i protocoll my measures i have a checklist with "1 or 10". So i never forget it.
Happy April 1 in 2023 from the wild south of HESSEN (Germany)
Love the “about us” on the website! 😂😂 “bob finger - chief people officer” lmao
I'm on the fence on this one. Certainly had a fair share of the x1/x10 switches going bad on my probes and I think this decision is good for industrial environments.
But then if I was a home gamer then I'd expect my o'scope to come fully featured including the x10 functionality - knowing the manufacturers, they'll supply their hardware with x1 probes and x10 probes price will be marked up slightly in a few years time.
supplying the scope with x1 probes means bandwidth limiting the scope in the out of box experience - that does not sound like a good idea.
(providing x10 mean limiting the lowest possible voltage it can measure - but a x1 probe is easier to make up on the spot then to tune a x10 probe)
Lol it's an April fools joke
I hate the switchable probes, but wouldn't ban them. Some people might like them in the end. But switching (duh!) to supplying non-switchable probes by default is a good direction.
To get round that someone could make a probe body with changeable tips with a built in attenuator so you have an individual probe tip for x1 and another probe tip for x10.
It's April 1st in Australia !
You're going to reduce environmental impact by either supplying 2x the number of probes, or likely ask the customer to spend more and get double the metal & plastic anyway if they want the same flexability as beforehand?
Yeah right.
I wish statements like this would stick to dot points they can actually defend.
Would love to see a simple (and yes, limited; special cases can be reserved for high-end speciality equipment to do their own thing) industry-wide standard instead for say a 3 or 4 wire connection that allows any probe to advertise its setup to any scope.
From companies trying to ensure 'quality processes' (ISO9k series etc) this makes a hell of a lot of sense.
They all already can buy separate probes for each process
@@rafaelestevam did you notice the first word is 'from'? not 'for'?
@@mycosys No .... I didn't 😅
Damn those people in Hill Valley, California!!!
How can you trust an alliance focusing on precision, when they post a day early?
These companies don't actually care about environment that is just a virtue signal.
You can bet that the 'key reasons' (selling points) for introducing them initially was just as long as this list.
Happy April.
@@Okurka. and the comment was posted when ? I fear that bar may have shifted up there .
I think its fine. oscilloscopes are precision devices, no point in using janky switchable probes.
Retire is probably a better word than ban. because I gotta assume they still support existing products and still do warranty replacements and such. They just don't sell new ones.
Shut up troll.
I'm currently at uni doing electronics and electrical engineering, and honestly I'm kinda happy this is going to happen.
The problem I have is all the new kids that are just starting have never touched stuff like oscilloscopes and don't understand them. For some reason they all seem to all have a thing with fiddling with the switch, they will sit there with the probe in their hand flicking it for a few hours during the lab then go put them back on the rack when they are done. Then us 4th years come along and have to end up wasting hours trying to debug a circuit just to find either the switch is set wrong or the x1/x10 setting on the scope has been fiddled with. Or even worse the switch is broken and even though it's on x10 on the switch inside It's still on x1. It's the absolute bane of my existence.
I kinda also assume this is something that also happens in the workplace hopefully to a lesser extent and that's the main driver behind this along with making more money as always.
At home, I would prefer having the switch because I can just leave it on x10 then on the odd occasion I use x1 I can flick a switch and press like 2 buttons much faster than I could change over a probe. Maybe it would be better if a probe could do both x1 and x10 then can be changed over in a setting or something rather than making a dedicated x1 and x10 probe. Then again what would I know I'm just the end user.
Hope I don't spoil this for anyone, but you do realize this is a joke for April 1st, right?
Handy to keep a few in your bench drawer for when they're needed. Get 'em while they're hot.
Happy fools day Dave!
Wow, you really had me there! Especially because several of the quoted reasons are absolutely true!
Thanks for the information, Dave. Time to replace old x1/x10 probes. ;)
I, for one, welcome our new 1x only overlords.
I have some feeling to we need to get a look to the date.
I fully agree with this decision! Too many times, my 10x/1x probes switched to the other scale, so I had to 3d print a "protector" slider for the switch. In addition, more precision and a more stable contact make sense. I hope even Chinese manufacturers will follow this clever guideline.
they forgot to mention the most important rule: now they can sell you 2 probes rather than 1.
i always had problems calibrating those on my old analog scope it either work as x10 or as x1 so in turn i have 2 probes calibrated to work in a single configuration.
i don't know how would that affect new oscilloscopes but for me this is almost a non issue
i almost feel it is similar to how auto range multimeters efectively replaced manual range switchable ones even in the low end because electronics inside is smart enough and sensitive enough to compensate for the lack of phisical switchable resistor banks
it also makes scope front end potentially safer because if you only going to buy one probe, you get x10 not x1 because it is highet impedance and affect your signal less and we can avoid newbies sticking x1 probes into the mains sockets to see powerline noise or something, or maybe i am completly wrong , you tell me
I'm fairly new to electronics, but is there any reason for not just moving the switch to the connector like the probes that have the compensation cap on the connector? The times I've had the switch on the wrong position have always been from switching it with my hand without noticing while probing. Moving it to the connector seems like a better option: you plug the probe, initial check of the switch and you're ready to go
If you watch Dave's old video on 1x / 10x probes, you'll find that there's way too much RF magic going on for the switch to live at the BNC end. The cable in a probe is not your normal 50 ohm cable, it's actually somewhat resistive and lossy; placing a 9Mohm resistor at the probe end produces a very high quality signal to the scope but also high-impedance load on the circuit, so that you don't disturb the circuit under test. If you put the switched-in 9Mohm resistor at the base of the BNC, now the cable of the probe is connected directly to the circuit under test, subjecting it to substantial capacitive loading that will disturb or even prevent the circuit-under-test from working.
Put another way, 1x/10x probes become really crap when they are switched to 1x, the frequency range is awful. If you put the switch at the BNC connector, it'd be that awful *all* the time, even in 10x mode; the probes would be useless. It's far more practical to carry the state of the switch from the probe to the BNC connector via a separate wire / triaxial cable, but that's an expensive solution.
@@TheHuesSciTech I watched it again paying more attention this time and with your explanation I think I understand. I would basically be changing the circuit moving the 9M resistor from before the "capacitor" to after it, which also would mean placing a bigger cap at the probe tip hence the capacitive loading
Thanks for explaining
Good. I never really understood why probes had a built-in "screw up my measurement by 10x" switch right where you handle it the most.
It's great for the manufacturer when you buy 2 probes instead of 1. The shareholders LOVE it
Reliability issues? It was about time they realized. At work we have an 2015 vintage Rohde&Schwartz oscilloscope, and one of the switchable probe is open circuit in the 1x mode and the other switchable probe is open in the 10x mode. Have been like that for as long as I remember.
Will built in isolation become mandatory on oscilloscopes now?
This is a really good one.
I have a x50, x500 switchable high voltage differential probe, is that covered by this?
If you miss-read a probe's setting sufficient to cause problems, you need more training and practice.
Makes sense for manufacturers to back it - they sell twice as many probes that way.
Nice one Dave :)
It's a very good date to make such a decision 😁
It’s now April 1st in the UK, when was this video posted in Australia
Sigh, in Australia it's 1st April already.
Accidentally switching the probe is such a minor issue. You get a super funky value, you adjust the switch on your probe, you carry on. Not an earth shattering event.
I have had far more pain from dodgy grounding setups with the probes.
Nice one! 🎉
I never used the 1x gain on probes, usually prefer 10x but I do like to have the option for both. Especially for the hobby market. Professional work I don’t see too much of a concern.
As with the TMA response, increased accuracy of the x 10 probes, coupled with x1/x10 having nonlinear results from wear, shaping of switches causing specific frequency ringing (birdies?), etcetera. I expect further improvements in the GHz to THz ranges after moving forward from the older tech.
Hey do you have anything on SDR-RTL software defined radio chips ?
Good one -- you nearly got me (April 1)