Monarch 10EE Drive Retrofit 5: Wiring the New Panel to the Lathe and First Test Running
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2022
- Monarch 10EE Drive Retrofit 5: Wiring the New Panel to the Lathe and First Test Running
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Personally, I do NOT find this content boring, or the stuff you are leaving out. I find these facets to the hobby to be fascinating. In any case, you and John are making some great progress on this. Should turn into a nice package that could be marketed to other 10EE owners.
I don't find the content boring at all. I like seeing old equipment updated with modern tecknoledgey.
It's small potatoes compared to your undertaking, but I recently updated my old Atlas 618 hobby lathe with the Clough42 Electronic Lead Screw and the Touch DRO system. It made a huge difference in the old lathe! Such a pleasure to use now!
Keep up the good work. I truly look forward to your videos.
I was going to retrofit a Clough electronic lead screw to my 1956 monarch 20c, before I got a deal on a CM cinturn 12u cnc may get another manual lathe later and add one on
Keith,
Very impressive job. Being an old school person, I was in college when HP released their first HP35 calculators. I traded in my slide rule, which I still have, for a $400 solid state piece of electronics.
This project is a perfect illustration of the transition of analog to digital technology. Being able to navigate this project speaks volumes to your abilities. My guess is your knowledge of how the controls of the 10EE work in both the analog and digital world has made you a master not only of the making of parts, but of all parts electrical in your machines.
Bob
ditto, RUSH although I traded my slipstick in for a TI SR-71 (who knows what happened to the slide rule)
Lucky guy. I graduated 4 years of Physics and Math with a slide Rule. Two years later came a $600 calculator a desk top and was in heaven. I then got a TI 4+1 banger and up and up from there. Have my HP 41 and Printer. Have a Ti ?61?. I would love to have a HP35 early model.
Not only are you a great machinist, you are now a certified “Sparky”
I like the patina paint job.
Wow. Keith, you've taken this project to a whole new level. Excellent work in your collaboration with John. Very good content.
This is awesome, I think it would be a great idea later on down the road to sell a kit for this to people that want to bring their 10EE up to 21st century. I'm sure there's a bunch of home shops and pro shops that would really appreciate it. You could also just sell the plans and parts lists. Something to help the museum out 😁
I'm truly excited for your progress. It's obvious that some of the machines will be sent on to new owners when the time comes as with the others. You haven't mentioned it, but have you designed a machinery tag to place on these machines when they are sold showing provenance that they were recrafted by you?
I’m glad to see the hall sensor and the addition of a chopper wheel to provide a tach signal. This motor will be as agile as any mover on a CNC system. I’m sure it will be a joy to use after it is done.
I went thru Navy avionics schilling during the transition from tubes to transistors to IC circuitry and I'm always amazed at how much work covering the old tube circuitry to IC/Solid State parts.
neither of his 10EE lathes had tubes in them from the factory. and yes i have laid hands on them personally.
@@nilzlima3027 Pretty sure that the old series of lathes had 2 large mercury vapor rectifier tubes in the old circuitry to convert AC to DC for motor and controls! The newer lathes had some sort of solid state rectifier in place of the old mercury vapor tubes.
@@nilzlima3027 This lathe is from 1952. Keith mentions in an earlier video this unit originally had the thyratron tubes system in it, but all that had been torn out by the time he got it. His other 10EE is from the 40s and had a motor-generator pair in it.
@@peterhaan9068 just a small EL1C is all the rectifier used in the Works in a Drawer drive. Armature and field DC was handled by switching thyratrons at the right time in phase
Outstanding. Thanks for the update.
this is so cool .looking forward to the rest of this build
Nice work Keith
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
Keith and John, thanks for sharing. Chapeau for the very impressive job.
Keith, that's going to be a great system. It would be fantastic if you could share it.
Well explained Keith. 👍
Nice progress even if it is slow. Thanks for posting.
Its really good to see the progress you have made getting the old girl up and running with modern technology. Can hardly wait to see the first chips. Best of luck on the final finish!!
Keith your stuff is always a pleasure to watch
This is great! My interests are in both these areas so the electronics are very interesting.
Good morning Keith from the UK, time for a coffee and an update 😁☕
I'm impressed with your knowledge of electrical stuff, I was lost after the third wire, but I was not bored.
This is NOT boring Keith, in fact, fascinating. I'm intrigued to see how this all works and how it will come out in the end. Great video, cheers :)
Thanks for sharing
This is very interesting. It's great that you have an expert in that field collaborating with you. I'm no sparkie, but that wiring looks pretty tidy from here. All the best, Mart in England.
Glad to see the progress a few small suggestions. Keep the read out its a good diagnostic tool. Most imprtantly Keep having fun and bring the misses lots of flowers
One man's boredom is another man's passion. I spent an entire career figuring out stuff like this, and I've loved every minute of it. I started out as a car mechanic, but realized that electronics and computers were essentially 'virtual engines', and I didn't need to get my hands burned or greasy working on them.
I bet you are learning a lot. Good progress. And I don't miss the blue paint at all!
Really fascinating Keith. As a retired electronics engineer I get what is happening but am amazed by what can be done in such a small space. Looking forward to it working at making chips again.
thank you Keith, your explanations make sense. Your electronics expert knows his stuff
This project is a superb example of teamwork. The skills/knowledge of several capable people combine to yield a whole that is greater than the sum of its parts. :>)
Thanks again Keith
Shoe🇺🇸
hiya Mr Keith! loving the updates, and much love to John from Minnesota for all the support! I realize that you won't really need it once everything is dialed in, but I would personally vote to keep the display panel, just because tech readouts are cool, and it might actually be handy for diagnostics down the line. thanks as always for a fun video!
Very interesting. The electronics are beyond my capability, but great to watch. Really says a lot about Monarch's engineering, to take mechanical switches and pots to do what you are trying to replicate with electronics. Thanks very much for sharing.
John is really a find. Bet you are relieved that you didn’t have to do this exercise on all the other machines you’ve had to work on. Keep on keeping on, it’s really interesting. Regards
Nice controls package. I was a controls engineer for 20 plus years.
Looks like you guys might be offering a kit soon. 10EE owners rejoice!
At the very least a component list and a wiring diagram. And a telephone number for help!
This project is truly fascinating. The 10 EE is one of the most accurate toolroom lathes ever produced and also one of the most electronically challenging. Thanks
Thats a monumental job Keith. Your doing very well for not being an electronic exspert 😊
Look forward to every video 😊
Great collaboration. Must be interesting without face-to-face.
The Electronics look very complicated, but if the machine runs & works as it should, I’m looking forward to seeing you do some work on it. Awesome job.
I love the juxtaposition of electronics and old machines! Even simple VFDs add numerous possibilities for finer control. The ancient DC system on my pre-WWII German horizontal mill was a nightmare to figure out, but getting it functional without letting out the magic smoke was fulfilling!
Thank you for sharing.👍👀
John has to be an electronics genius.
Hello sir u r great I am impressed your work u teach a very good
Good stuff, Keith! Very interesting! Sure will be nice to have up to date electronic controls and operating mechanisms on this very fine machine! I'm curious to what total cost for this conversion might be, ball park, if possible... Thanks for your time and sharing Keith, and also to all involved in this project! 👍😎✌️🇺🇸
might be boring to some keith but i love detailed wiring...very neat thank you
I was looking forward to the test run.
You are.... SUPER versatile !!!
Just fascinating!
Got to agree, I would love to have a 10EE but that"house paint" job is almost enough to make me have second thoughts if I were offered it for a bargian price! It already looks like I could fall in love with it now.
possibly that I don't understand a particularity of that lathe , I always driven my lathes with constant speed motors and selected my spindle speeds with headstock gearbox.
For sure that such a system is an asset to select spindle speeds between the fixed ratios of the gearbox.
It is a very interesting project.
Your camera equipment thanks you.
I pressure wash my stuff too. Simpler to work with clean stuff, plus, you'll be opening to inspect everything, change and fix everything. To do otherwise, would be a waste of one's own investment, when the gears grind to a halt because one didn't check for messed up parts. Obviously electronics are protected with bags and sealant before, but otherwise, these machines can take it just fine. Not like you're gonna blast them full gauge, just enough to remove decades of gunk.
Five years ago when i got my latest lathe, the thing arrived in so much grease and scum the operator actually saran wrapped my lathe to not get gunk on his straps. We don't buy these old girls because they're fresh off the showroom floor.
Please, please, please don't forget the grommets and edging anywhere that wires pass through an opening in metal. This machine WILL transmit vibrations throughout the entire thing and it WILL eventually wear through the insulation anywhere it can, in some cases amazingly quick.
that's pretty cool
Since you already have designed & bought the display for the puppy, keep it in the design for *when* you need diagnostics in the future. I always assume that my work will break and left the reasonable cost instumentation in place. Nice Job Guys!
I, too, would like to say that I have found the content about this electronic conversion fascinating. When this series started out I was mystified why you you did not put a VFD unit & three phase motor in. Now I see why. This lathe is really something rather special with its early DC variable speed drive. I can completely understand why you need to bring it up to date to be able to use it with the very nice DC motor to show the lathe off close to its original form. Thank you for sharing this with me & I hope others will agree with my sentiment.
Sorry I live in the UK. So it feels wrong to accept your offer.
I think you find this more tedious than we do! I know a fair bit about electronics...but not power electronics....the small motor control test panel is something I get...how it gets incorporated into the larger control system is quite fascinating.
Great video, I have one small critique, power washing machines. The problem with your theory is that old machines always have grease and oil and when water gets into places it doesn't belong it frequently ends up with an oil slick on it that prevents evaporation. For instance the 10ee has shielded ball bearings under the saddle, those are guaranteed to have water in them that will take months to dry back out and do untold damage in the meantime. Power washing machine tools is just never a good idea, my Lucas 41 was power washed by a previous shop foreman and still has the oil groove shaped burn marks on the bed from the moisture it trapped to show for it.
nice wiring job....!
I guess I've been involved in machine and process control one way or another for most of my working life well, over 50 years anyway, so I might be a wee bit biased but there is nothing remotely boring about this! I have to confess I'd not heard of the Monarch Lathe brand before - perhaps not many made it over to the UK - but it looks a pretty solid machine to put it mildly, don't think you could accuse them of under-engineering it?
I'm looking forward to the 'next thrilling instalment'!
KEITH, GREAT JOB, BUT IT WAS WAY OVER MY HEAD, BUT WAS A VERY INTERESTING GREAT VIDEO...
You owe John a BIG favor, lots of design work in this. Nevertheless NO SMOKE on the SMOKE TEST is always a good thing. Your wiring looks good too
Keith I do not find this boring at all I will make one suggestion now I would keep that display so you know how fast that motor is running and know what's going on in case there is a problem okay this is Bob from Vero Beach Florida God bless have a great day and stay safe
Hoping to see the progress on this lathe soon.
I take it that the DC drive doesn't do reversing, that's why you had to have the reversing starter.
Hope you checked that starter out, because if it drops out it might cause a problem with the drive.
I'm sure the forward to reverse can only be switched while the drive is off. Good choice on the starter, far As I'm concerned Allen-Bradley starters are the best.
Looking good can't wait to see the final version.
It's Keith42 (with Johns help)!!! Very interesting. God Bless
Wow that's a lot of wiring for a lathe!
Process and system control is my thing... would love to see a deep dive into the nuts and volts of this.
"nuts and volts" love it! Or is that a typo? Serendipity if it is!
Looking forward to seeing it finished. Of course if this was a car, you'd just spray some clear coat on and call it "patina"
I pressure wash old machines too. Properly done it is harmless and the best way to do it. I always paint and restore them too. I have sent machines out to an autobody shop if a lot of bondo is required. Or to a powder coat place if a lot of blasting is required. They come back better than new. The auto folks have a very high standard so your headstock will come back looking like a Ferrari fender. I did a Hardinge HLV like that. We use it all the time. The archaic drive motor in the 10EE is a huge impediment to restoring one these lathes. The Hardinge HLV is a far better candidate for restoration. The vari--drive works to 3000RPM as is and gives increasing torque with lower speed. Full support and spare parts are available from Hardinge. Hardinge parts are cheaper than any other sources. New leadscrews, bearings, badges, labels, knobs, handles,. control panels are all available at modest cost. I have replaced lead screws with factory parts. The cross slide screw is a 10 pitch left hand Acme thread. If you buy one with a new nut they lend you drill and tap alignment bushings and a left hand tap at no charge! Where are you going to get a left hand Acme tap. How much are you going to pay for one use. Fresh paint ,new bearings,
and new labels make an amazing restoration. I don't recall exactly but a new thread pitch chart for the gear box is likely $10. If someone offered me monarch I10EE would run like hell.
There’s a 10EE on eBay now, or was last week. Not interested at all after watching Keith and Steve Watkins work on theirs.
I really like EE Projects
Using an Arduino nano and a I2C 2004 display. I figured that would be the answer to the dual voltage tracking for the 0-5 on the drives
Child's play for an Arduino or nearly any TI Microcontroller.
@@matthewhelton1725 Yeah it'd be overkill for a launch pad unless you wanted to use a quadrature encoder. Which is the way I'd implement the speed sensing as interrupt counting on a Atmel 328 is crap and not very accurate.
Wow!
I was thinking of adding on to the shop. Now that I know a little bit of water won't hurt machinery I'll just pour a pad and load it up with all the new machines. Sweet. Thanks for the advice.
Look at it this way, if the paint was so bad that it came off with the pressure washer, it's probably best to just repaint it. It'll save you some rust or other damage down the line.
when you get it figured out you guys should develop a retrofit kit for sale
Pure witchcraft! I wish my mind could wrap itself around this theory. Keep up the great work Keith.
Keith, can I encourage you, when you paint this, to start with the most difficult, or intensive areas, then work towards the easier areas. It will give you more of a sense of accomplishment, and these you can do in-between other jobs. Also, if you work from the top down, it will also be a natural progression.
You're already working on the electrical panel, which is complicated, so you're off to a good start.
You realize that he's been restoring old machinery for at least 20 years, right? I think he's pretty well versed in what needs doing and how to get it done.
@@kindablue1959 I’m surprised though, that he didn’t repaint that box he added that new board to. It doesn’t look good.
@@melgross Again, and again - he's working on a **prototype** that he will eventually apply to his other 10EE that he will fully restore. He is doing the **absolute minimum** to this machine, just enough to use it as a prototyping platform. He didn't even plan on power washing it - he just did that because it was too gross to work on.
@@kindablue1959 just remember that this is a much newer machine than the other one. The reason he’s doing a “full” restore to the other, is because he got it first. I’d bet he’d rather do it to this one. Also, the older machine is well worn. This one might not be requiring a full restore. But, he’s planning to paint it. So paint the box too. It’s a minimal job. I do this all the time.
@@melgross Again, first things first. So many seem to think Keith should work according to their own schedule. Keith said he will take care of cosmetics after he gets the motor stuff done. And he said he will make a decision later if he wants to keep this one or sell it off. Why not just accept what he produces instead of the constant second-guessing and criticisms.
The electrical control box and wiring are mounted on a vertical panel. The panel is an aluminum piece supporting the heavy electrical inverters and control components.
It would seem that diagonal braces would be needed to keep it from wobbling, especially in a motorized environment.
That and the complete lack of rubber grommets in the thru holes have both been mentioned and ignored in the comments for all these videos.....
@@notsofresh8563 Keith - Has already used sheathing on the wiring going to the motor controller. This is a rough setup just for testing and adjusting and you can bet your bottom dollar the finished product will meet and exceed what you are nattering about now. Give the man a chance!
The guys have spent countless hours working on solving the incredibly hard parts of this system, and yet so many people here want to criticize about the absolute most mundane of things. Of course he will figure out if he needs to put added braces or rubber grommets or mounts anywhere once he actually fires the thing up. He's not an idiot, like so many here seem to think. /smh
@@notsofresh8563 He has mentioned "grommets" many times, so just calm down!
Oh my god this is awesome! My buddy has one of those monarch 10ee’s it is a awesome little lathe but it’s becoming problematic with those vacuum tubes! Any idea on what this is going to cost roundabout and if this guy is going to put something like this into production?
Leave the display for the motor information if you can. It will make troubleshooting easier if something goes wrong
He can have that micro-controller send diagnostic info to his phone via Bluetooth.
im thinking we should do a vid abute just the electronics package, a real deep dive too.
Teletypes were dust collectors and would often clog up during operation - oil ink everywhere. The standard process is to Dish Washer it and then getting it out place it in a drum of oil. Comes out dripping and water off. Drain and place back in oil catch base. Add paper and let them rip along. They were the mainstay for the weather and other operations. Emergency send and call. Did not use the power line in the old ones. Modern ones do. Real modern ones are electronic.
And never, ever get WD-40 near them! I have a teletype I got from a guy who spent much of his career working on them, and spent the later portion of it restoring machines that had been poorly maintained, usually with WD-40, which works great at first, then gums everything up, making them very hard to de-gunk. Typewriters have the same issues.
Be instrested to see where you mount your spindle speed display. And will you have DRO fitted too?
Wow, too bad about the paint, when you thought you were nearing the finish, now you have extra work to do. But at least the zombie look is keeping with the Halloween theme. I also haven't found much of this boring and if I did, I could always skip forward so don't worry about things you might think is boring to the rest of us. Good work overall!
Fascinating to watch the process.
Just wondering what happened to Jimmy’s bandsaw?
@Tim Coombe, Jimmy's Bandsaw, now has Variable speed, Reverse, and cutting angles !
And has those nice flashing Tesla LED's.
If you keep your eyes open you can se it in the background in recent videos.
@@ulwur 👍🏻
I’ll be more observant in future!
I enjoy the videos, but I have a complaint, a valid complaint, when you did the first run, you were standing in front of the machine, Damn, I wanted to see that spindle turn, nope Keith in the way, help us out and show the dang spindle. That's my only complaint, a lot of your content is old home week for me as I went to trade school as a machinist on the way to being a PowerHouse Mechanic for 30+ years. I understand and have done 99% of the machining, it's nice to make a chip every now and then. I have a small lathe and milling machine in the garage, so it's never too far away. Happy Chips and Shiny Ways !!!!!
I'd be tempted to retain that display, even if only behind a panel, so you can view the values from time to time when needed. I'm sure that the analog tach can't be 100% accurate as compared to the hall-effect sensor.
It looks like he's driving it all with an Arduino or similar microprocessor. If he wanted, he could send any diagnostic info to his phone via Bluetooth.
@@kindablue1959 Looks like an Arduino Nano to me.
On my boat for rpm,there is a sensor that counts the teeth. Volvo Penta TMD 40
Keith - great video. Can you share the model number of the hall effect sensor you are using to count rotations. Most of the sensors I have seen available require a magnet to be mounted on the moving part to trigger the hall effect switch. But I know that some sensors exist with bias magnets inside that can sense any ferrous metals moving by - I just have not found any for sale - at a hobbyist price at least.
He has the sensor it has the Round Red end remember he tapped the end of it with a crewdriver to simulate teeth passsing by it?
@@briand01 Yes - that is precisely the sensor I am asking about. It looks like a standard 10mm hall effect sensor from ebay or amazon except the ones from those places will not sense a screwdriver unless it is magnetized. But, they do make sensors that will - a flywheel sensor for a car is a good example of a sensor that will sense unmagnetized ferrous metal. I was just asking what the model number was for the sensor that Keith is using because I would like to get some.
Haha nice, looks like a whole swarm of birds had pooped on the lathe. I would leave it like it is xD
Slap a GoPro on the end of that pressure washing wand and boom! Pressure washing content! ;)
There's a game out there where you spend hours pressure washing on your computer. It's a feeling people want.
All that vibration = blurry video or maybe the end of the GoPro.
Im surprised you did not try using the old potentiometer. I guess it is just not compatible with the newer electronics.
Keith - did you ever get this project completed? Very interested in your progress sir.
Keith it’s been a while since the last update. Where are you at on any updates?
Why are there a number of wires on the motor reverser with no connector crimped on?
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like to me you have the capability to add input from a Cross-slide DRO to run a constant surface speed modifications. Are you considering that?