Losing to a zoner or grappler also probably does the most ego damage. Broadly -zoners dismantle your movement, grapplers poke holes in your offense, rush down exposes your defense. Gamers in the Salt mines don't care if their defense is whack.
Good point, but I think it's even simpler than that. If you lose to a grappler, you generally Lose Big. If you win against a zoner, you usually Win Small. Neither one feels very good.
@@vaderwalks I feel like the worst bit about fighting someone with grabby-hands is that you can be winning with a massive life-lead, and then they touch you ONE TIME, and you're on the verge of death. The thing about winning small against a zoner: bullseye. Because a zoner's whole job is to deny you the chance to play the game XD
@@antonsimmons8519 You're not wrong. On the grappler's end, they (probably) had to bust their ASS off to get in and hit you once, so it had better be rewarding when they do so. But to their opponent, that effort doesn't necessarily show on the screen, and it seems like 'you were losing the whole time and then I died when you got lucky'.
Excellent video. I always see specialist characters like grapplers and zoners get a lot of hate when they’re good (and sometimes when they’re not even good) and it makes me kind of sad because a lot of them are really well designed and cool. In the present day, where the viability of the characters is much closer together than the past, I don’t see why they can’t be top tier, as long as the core of their strengths and weaknesses are intact.
Thats the problem tho they arent. Zoners like Happy Chaos zone u and then when u get close they have like the best 2s and 2k along with 5k and 6s. Like why did they think making happy chaos the best zoner as well as having the best up close buttons is just beyond me.
True but at that point your hoping for the mystical top tiers everyone thinks their game will have next patch that will be completely fine and no one will complain about™️
@@maxrusty3596 okay but Happy Chaos can't zone anymore so does it even matter at this point? clearly Arc Sys didn't want the character to work that way.
@@TwentySeven1337 Except the fact that he can zone just fine. Oh and also he has some of the best mix in the game. as well as mid range, long range and up close. His only draw back is meter management they think were fucking stupid. Thats why Nago has been broken for so long they think managing a meter is hard to make ur character the best in the game but it really isnt for some ppl.
Even more so, the average player likes to aggressively rush, and both of these archetypes neutralize the chance to even do so (let alone win by doing so).
No I don’t mind zoners just hate grapplers or characters like balrog in sfv. just don’t find it fun to change my entire play style to counter a balrog. You say the same about zoners but at least with zoners I could simply get close and it’s a mind game to a certain extent. Grapplers is just oh look you misinput and or didn’t punish my single button command grab that does 30%
I don't think it's that they hate respecting others gameplay. It's that they hate that they don't have to respect theirs back. A strong zoner/grappler just does their thing no matter who they're playing and that's annoying.
Grapplers and zoners are also the biggest scrubkillers (take it from me, a scrub) So it's much more relatable for the greater audience when the top player that thinks they're entitled to win goes "blah blah blah gorilla grappler blah blah blah zoner takes no skill"
There's this one tier list of BlazBlue Central Fiction I always think about that has the conventionally accepted placements for all the characters, except the entire background of the tier list is Tager, because he is simultaneously the best, worst, and most mid tier character. I don't remember who made it, but I really liked it a lot. I love Tager. Grapplers are the best because they make me laugh.
I think there's also a nontrivial number of players who just reflexively hate any gameplan that isn't theirs, with the anti zoner/grappler bias a function of there being fewer people playing those archetypes
I remember how much hate Morrigan players caught in Marvel vs Capcom 3. She's probably the strongest zoner in any game I've ever played. She didn't have some of the problems as normal zoners like Sajam was talking about. Morrigan had AMAZING pressure and offense with her fireballs, and also she had amazing defense with a 1 frame unfly making everything she did safe, a DP, and an invincible super that could beat Spencer's Bionic Arm. Like you don't automatically win by getting in on Morrigan because she's a strong character
The worst thing about _UMvC3_ Morrigan is that she would have been *super* easy to make non-oppressive too. All that really had to change is that Astral Vision ended when she got hit. That's literally all would have needed to change for her to not oppressive but still be very good, especially given how stupid a lot of her hitboxes and hurtboxes are and would still be. Sigh. Oh well. Disney's greed ruins something else. What a surprise. Personally I still found C. Viper and especially Zero even more obnoxious than Morrigan, helped by the fact that they got unneeded buffs going into _UMvC3_ like she did but somehow dumber still. (I still hope whoever decided Zero needed more health and cancel options while characters like Arthur and Hsien-ko got jackshit fell down stairs...that were on fire.)
@@MusicoftheDamned I disagree on the Morrigan change, she just needs to not build meter in astral like other installs. Getting hit and losing astral feels unfairly targeted towards specifically her since no other install has the same effect, you just need to make hers more in line with other installs. Zero is uh, one of the characters of all time, easily top 2.
I have to ask which of these 3 was more problematic. Zero, Phoenix or Morrigan? I never understood Morrigan hate when Zero and Phoenix were in the game
@@ghostfire1192 Yeah, not gaining meter would probably be fine too even though it could be subverted by that stupid draining fireball she got and/or using Amaterasu's meter-building assist. I was going to suggest that as an alternative, but it's been so long since I've watched her oppress anyone while being bored to tears that I couldn't remember if she actively built meter herself or just through missiles and TAC bullshit. That she still gets to gain meter definitely the dumbest part of Astral Vision. That said, getting punished on hit still seems like it would be fine to me even if, yeah, ir would be atypical of installs. Not like they're all the same way right now anyway though between stuff like Ryu randomly losing health while using his, Dante and Virgil gaining back health on top of a bunch of other things, Jill becoming unable to block at all, and poor Arthur getting *completely* fucked over for his *at all* as if he didn't have a dozen other glaring issues already. Morrigan would still be far better than half of those characters with only one bigger weakness, and I doubt anyone would feel bad for her beyond ChrisG himself.
@@MusicoftheDamned A lot of Morrigan players are in modern marvel besides Chris, but although each install does a different thing, they all generally follow the rule of no meter build for the most part. Losing install on hit is just too punishing even for Morrigan Also Arthur install is good, it needs a downside because a 20 second install with increased damage, reduced damage taken, and additional move properties with zero downside would be really strong, it's easily in the top half of installs in the game
I like fighting zoners and grapplers. It feels like some weird challenge / puzzle mode where you're probably good so long as you understand what their deal is.
Imagine what people think of Z Broly that can be both a zoner with his ki blast, a grappler with his 17 frame armored grab that can just level 3 to get like half of your health stole and a tank with his lariat
DBFZ Zoning isn't a real Zoning, it's only a very lose version of it, and it's true to Z Broly as well. The chip damage from all projectiles is very small across the board and you can't kill the opponent via cheap, on top of the fact that in addition to the already broken Super Dash, there's also the Vanish and also the super arc jump, all of those can bypass Zoning super easily. All the Zoning does in DBFZ is just lure the opponent to come to you so you can bait them into combos, but there's no true pace control or Keepaway via Zoning.
Zoners change the match up so much more than grapplers imo, at lower skill it also makes it much easier to prevent people from playing the game for way longer.
People hate characters based around long range keep away and short range exclusive characters in almost every game. Take tf2 for example, probably the 2 most hated classes are sniper and pyro. A long range marksman who kills you when no one else can, and a short range class that has to work hard to get in but then has very high damage up close. Very different mechanics, but the emotions people have towards these rough play styles transcend genres.
Pyro isn't hated for the same reason grapplers are hated though. People hate Pyro because Pyro is perceived as a low skill class (so you have something to whine about when you die), and fighting a Pyro using their flamethrower it's basically impossible to get away from that fight without getting lit on fire for at least a little bit. Pyro is more like a grappler vs Soldier and Demo though, because an airblasted pipe or rocket might as well be an SPD
@@NeoBoneGirl I'm sorry to say, but grapplers are also perceived as low skill characters who simply have to get in range once with their subpar mobility to murder you. (people don't even consider that, maybe just don't let them in) I will say, damage over time SPD is certainly a thought.
@@NeoBoneGirl Yes I am being reductive, Pyro can flank/ambush and grapplers often have a neutral skipper, point is, you can do something about it, by being aware of what tools the grappler has and what paths the pyro can take you can mitigate their effectiveness. And ultimately this goes for all characters, the only difference is the perception of low skill and how hard you can knowledge check some dude with detonator jumps or with tick throw setups.
Even funnier is the fact that one of the _UNI_ characters' gimmicks is based around counter hits, correct? That Enkidu dude I think? Does he even affect her or is that just some hilarious 9-1 match-up?
@@Kibotsu.squiggle Guess I can't say I'm surprised to learn that given Waldenstein's huge ass body just cries out to be oppressed by lasers from full-screen. Poor bastard.
They can also both naturally frustrating to play against, because of what you mentioned where you can't run your standard game plan. And I think because of this players who thrive on reads, or hard reads, tend to get in your head easier when you're frustrated, essentially looping your frustration making it easier for them to beat you. The perceived tier placement of Graplers and Zonners tend to be higher I think because on paper they usually look bad, frame data/MUs etc; but because they can steal a round, or poke you out which can be annoying, they can tilt you easier which makes you like panicked prey to them lmao. Which I think tier lists can make worse, take Pot in Strive for example. Most look at him as a 'bad character', but I think he's terrifying to play against at a high level. Celestial Pot players sometimes make me feel like I've never played a FG before, and I'm pretty sure some of them can straight up see the future lol.
Speaking of, I can't wait to see how they let Gief cook in SF6. Until I actually see it in game, I can't help but worry they're gonna go the "grappler can't drive rush" path, make them go a shorter distance or some other limitation. I just want a little bit of mayhem.
Spitting facts as always. Polarized archetypes generally are busted when their weaknesses aren't as pronounced as they should be. Something worth noting on top of this is that polarization can magnify the busted nature of a character. For example, people are already a bit annoyed that they have to change their game plan against zoners. And then if they suffer through that nonsense to get close range, the part where they should get to play *their game* again, and just get rolled by some ridiculous defense the zoner shouldn't have then people get upset because they feel robbed. After all, they did the correct thing and got close range on a zoner, so it feels bad to be punished for that
Spittin' facts as always. I personally love zoners because they often feel the most rewarding for creativity. Any game/character that lets me freestyle in neutral is an S+ in my books.
And it's that screen control that drew you to zoning that drives people so crazy. People get salty when stuck on defense. They get real salty when their offense is constantly shut down
@@KittSpiken I agree with you. I love zoning, but I do not pretend what I'm doing is at all fun for my opponent. I'm doing my best to make sure he can't play, which is how zoning is done XD
The way I've always looked at it is like this: People (both players and spectators) want games to be won by the winner having beaten their opponent fairly (AKA without cheating/through pure skill). In a lot of people's eyes Zoners don't win by outplaying the opponent, their opponent loses to them because they aren't given a chance to use their skill. The focus is on the loser losing, not the winner winning. Grapplers on the other hand tend to have massive armored or guard-breaking specials that do so much more damage than any singular move of any other archetype. They make it so that their opponent's skill doesn't matter, because "playing neutral" against armor "doesn't work" and Grapplers spit in the face of people holding back and utilizing defense. This diminishes the "calculated and thoughtful play from the Grappler's honest opponent" that people tend to want to see. Obviously both archetypes are normally (or at least should normally be) designed with the appropriate drawbacks to not make them absolute demons to deal with. Zoners shouldn't be good up close, and Grapplers should have trouble getting close. Those drawbacks are supposed to be inherent to the archetypes, and that's supposed to make it so that the differences in the Zoner's or Grappler's playstyle and thought processes are shown in their gameplay (like a Guile setting up a wall of Booms and forcing their opponent to choose one of their two anti-fireball tools that they read and punish or a Gief conditioning their opponent to stop throwing fireballs because they keep getting EX Siberien Expressed only to walk up to them and SPD them to hell). But when a Zoner can get around someone's "honest rushdown" and a Grappler can get around someone's "honest turtling" people don't see it as getting outplayed. They see it as getting gimmicked.
To be fair it is still getting outplayed but with grapplers and zoners it can feel like you lost simply because you don't know how to counter the opponent rather than them actually outplaying you despite you knowing how to counter them.
There's nothing wrong with a zoner or grappler being top-tier. Unless a character is flat-out broken, it's not like it's even as bad as an 8-2 in most modern fighters. Balance in major titles is generally better these days.
agree, but some people may find the matchups un fun. i personally don't, and most of my friends grappler players, so i never understood how it wasn't fun.
@@noakinn I've played every archetype extensively in multiple games(except puppet characters. that's just not for me), and honestly, imo, grapplers are consistently harder to win with. Imo, that alone justifies a top-tier character.
@@noakinnI play with a grappler friend too and I don’t find a problem with them. Make them guess wrong once and it’s just like any other character. Zoners on the other hand don’t let you play the game and may only let you get a single interaction in before you have to work your way in again. It isn’t to say that they’re braindead but coming from a SoulCalibur background it’s always felt like low risk high reward for them instead of the high risk high reward grapplers have to deal with.
The only character I've ever truly despised is Tamaki Aquapazza. She has the command grab and damage of a traditional grappler but none of the drawbacks. Her mobility was in fact better than most of the cast since she had short hop/high jump (which most chars didn't have) and her forward dash was a run. Zoning was already bad in that game because of the emotion system, but she was extra unzonable because on top of the fast movement she had a full screen unblockable eye lasers that lowered your emotion on hit and was comboable at certain ranges. Her 720 did absurd damage, she could loop oki, cover jump outs with assists into air unblockable moves. She had an insanely fast god press super that you could do between strings or to punish normally safe moves with pushback. Absolute menace of a character.
As a grappler main, this makes so much sense. I mostly play strive, and people HATE potemkin despite him being arguably bottom 3. It's because whenever someone doesn't know how to play against him, they struggle. Anyway, bring back beta potemkin.
Peoplpe fear what they don't understand. I've liked Potemkin since X2 Reload but now i'm trying to learn Axl in Strive too which is quite funny and ironic.
Pot is fun as hell to play and I don’t care what anyone says. I miss all his options from rev 2 though, but that can be said about a couple characters. Strive still rips though
@@MUGENanaya Hah that’s brilliant. Now that i think about it, maybe grapplers and zoners aren’t so different after all. Both made to terrorize people even when they aren’t top tiers.
I remember whenever my friends and I picked up new fighting games I would always choose the grappler, and people *haaaated* me for it. None of them liked having to change up their rushdown play style to accommodate for me taking advantage of their unsafe block chains which left them open for command grabs.
I've had years of Blazblue gameplay where I play my main as Nu-13 (or Lambda when available), and my roommate plays as his main, Tager. It's like the perfect Yin and Yang. I struggle desperately to stay out of his range and not magnetized, trying to whittle down an absolute mountain with a thousand ranged cuts, while he strategically inches ever closer from one side of the screen to the other just looking for one careless opportunity to annihilate half my health bar. It's about as stressful as any match can get from my experience (minus the fact that I'm just not good enough to stop rush down characters consistently), but we both love it. We're each in our element and trying to do exactly what our characters were set up to do. My other friend that mains Ragna hates fighting both of us. It's hilarious.
This made me crack a smile. Being right in your element is honestly the best ever feeling in a fighting game and i can attest to the zoner vs grappler matchup being DREADFULL (especially on the zoner side cause you have control). Weirdly enough the rushdown archetype is really one-sided here
I thought it was just the lay of the land. On the grapplers side, everyone who doesn't play them seem to dislike them and want to never see a buff or improvement given. It's incredibly common to see people say "Glue eater grappler mindset". It's all good to have a laugh at all types of chars, but often people take those (consistent) jokes to be a proper endorsement of hating a character archetype. Which leads to something like patch note discussions - those types will roll over to grappler notes, see they got a QoL or something and go "Omg! Why! He didn't need that!". it is what it is, i guess.
Anti-Rushdown Movement 2k23. I'm tired of rushdown being top tier in every game, and people acting like it's skillful then turning around and calling the midtier zoner of their game a "mindless spammer." Some these chars been getting away with murder.
Hey it's perfectly fine for a small body character to slap on some ice skates, full screen nanospeed dash into a 5f low that leads to 40% + oki. Potemkin walking for 3 days to get into CG range, then doing 35% - can't have that!
Preemptively letting myself down gently after finding out that even with my boy Geif is getting an antiair-grab in SF6, that he's still only going to be midtier at best. Feelssadman.
I think you hit the nail right on the head, and I think this also applies to pretty much anything, from people hating control decks in card games to people hating certain types of weapons in shooters.
As a grappler main, I don't care if they are top-tier. I also like it when they have a clear weakness. It makes the character more interesting. What I do care about is certain characters always being top tier in every game. Why does akuma always have to be good in every street fighter game? Same for Steve Fox in tekken. I just wish top-tier characters had more weaknesses or be more punishable on block.
To be fair, by design, akuma or steve being bad is hard Because their core design is versatility, and versatile chars are almost always good So unless they say, nerfed their dmg to the floor, akuma and steve WILL always be good
@HELLRAISER O2 very true. Also, these characters require execution, especially Steve Fox. The reward for learning the characters and putting in the time is being able to run the gameplan easily. For example, a really good Steve can stay really safe, use a small set of moves, use fundamentals, and win any matchup. The reason he can do this is because he doesn't have any kick moves, so he needs to be good in other areas. Also the hard truth is there always has to be a top tier. if winning mattered that much I would pick them too. And tbh I'm just sick of seeing the same top tiers win every tournament.
@@buddhaboy10000 if theyre hard and good, then theyre cool Also tourney wins are usually cuz of a player, if say, knee wanted to, he could try winning with negan, a mid tier, and i think he did 1 time recently or it was winners finals and not grand finals
@HELLRAISER O2 I'm torn. On the one hand if you put in the time to learn the execution you should be rewarded. But on the other hand I don't think you should necessarily use execution as a balancing tool. I believe characters should have risk reward. The problem with Steve is he can be played so compact and take minimal risk that it's hard to beat a really good Steve. At least with the majority of the cast they have to commit to a risky move every now and then. Also I disagree about players winning tournaments not characters. This is wrong. Just look at that one tekken world tournament where everyone used leeroy and fakkumram 😆. Hell every top player in tournament has a pocket Steve, geese, akuma etc.
@@buddhaboy10000 1. While steves often safe and compact at high level, many chars play more safe n compact at high level because whiff punishes are so strong 2. The only reason leroy n fahk took over is cuz they literally broke the balance of the game, they got nerfed and now they dont dominate tournaments with their pinkies, that was a much more extreme case of top tiers
The thing is a character with overtuned midrange options like Ramlethal also changes how you have to play the game, like if we both use a button in the middle of the screen the Ram player likely counter hits you into the corner and sets up sword toss pressure, meaning your character has to avoid midrange either becoming a zoner or a rushdown character.
High-level potemkin execution on par with Zato and Happy Chaos, look where we are. You really gotta bust your hands for the tech to get a better shot at busting your opponent.
To be honest this hits harder with a platform fighter because your usual zoner/trapper tend to be more dynamic then their traditional fighter counterparts and often harder to use as a result Yet whenever one wins, they usually get accused of being a brain dead spammer even though they objectively have a steeper learning curve then your usual rush downs lol
I like grapplers because they have a very simple game plan with a very simple tool kit. The act of using those tools to circumvent the enemies defense makes it incredibly satisfying. As a Grappler player, you have to consider the tools the opponent has on hand and adjust. If a player can't adjust to what a grappler brings, thats on the player, not the archetype. Let the salt flow imo. My steak is under seasoned.
As a Zoning player myself, I can tell Zoning just forces you to actually be patient and be good at the game. It's not just that it forces you to play the game differently, yes it is a part of it but it's much more than that. Of course if you ran into a casual player online that has no intention of being good and just wanna play it occasionally for fun, his or her reaction can be understandable, but the real problem comes when more intermediate players, those that play fighting games on regular basis and try to grind the game, even if it's not on a competitive level, still complain about Zoning and try to make excuses about it, because they don't wanna deal with it. It literarily exposes the other players' experience and understanding of the game, they claim that they wanna grind the game, regardless if it's for E-Sports or intermediate level, but then bitch when something forces them to play the game not in their way. People need to understand that things won't always go there way, and not all things can be changed to fit their comfort. Zoning in fighting games is one of those things. Can't handle it? Don't blame the game, blame yourself.
I think the real issue is that fighting games are a terrible fucking sport that is itself a horrible abstraction of real fighting. If people grinded boxing or MMA in real life instead of playing these shitty video games they wouldn't be having these issues. Even better, if they learned how to fight in real life then went to a fighting game convention and beat the shit out of everyone there.
Pretty sure it's just that those characters make you change the way you play the game, if not outright disallowing you to play it at all. Zoners force you to sit there and take chip damage for eons as you edge closer to them and pray to get in eventually, while grapplers force you to play cheap or else face instant death at the hands of three grabs and a guard crush.
A top tier zoner/grappler could be cool. But only when their weaknesses still matter, zoners should still have problems at close range and grapplers should fear for their life at full screen. Sadly top tiers in these archetypes are usually only good because of a lack of weaknesses, not their own strengths.
The problem with grapplers is when you play a non fireball character and your forced to engage all the time, Their weaknesses goes out the window. I feel helpless against Geif as Akira my buttons don't have much reach and I have to play extremely lame without getting rewarded.
Glad someone said this instead of the usual “hehe just bad and can’t adjust” Ivy’s been sitting at the top of SoulCalibur VI’s tier list because she’s good at every range despite being a zoned and is a better grappler than the dedicated grappler archetype of that game.
I'm a bit weird in that I hate grapplers like most people, but only certain types of grapplers (and also don't generally hate zoners). I hate fighting or using your Zangief/Potemkin/Tager types. But I kind of love NRS and SNK grapplers; even some ArcSys grapplers like Z Broly too. Not exactly sure how to explain it. Maybe it's how the type of grapplers I like, for playing as them, despite still generally being slower than the rest of the cast, they don't feel purposely restricted (compared to someone like Potemkin who literally only has a grounded backdash). And then for playing against them, you also you don't necessarily just die off getting grabbed twice. Someone like Sun God Kotal in MKX doing 25% off 1 command grab is nothing comapred to standard unoptimal midscreen BnBs being well over 30% damage. Or someone like Daimon grabbing you into super still isn't as much as a full combo from anyone else in the game. Just my personal taste, I guess.
"You don't die off getting grabbed twice" yeah, with z broly, you die off getting hit with a single light instead. I say this as a person who mains z broly (and 16/pot/tager/gief/whatever grappler you wanna toss in a game) btw. that character is fucking *degenerate* lmao.
@@WaluTime Oh don’t get me wrong, I'm not saying Z Broly isn't insane and DBFZ is unga af in general, but I don’t get annoyed like I do with more “traditional” grapplers lmao. Z Broly has other insane crap (heck he’s also a zoner), but for some reason, it doesn’t annoy me as much as getting grabbed by even a low tier version of Zangief.
I feel the more toptier a character is the archetypes bleed into each other like a toptier zoner also having toptier rushdown or the other way around with the toptier rushdown also just being really really hard to catch, to not get started on how toptier all rounders are good at everything. So the thing a toptier grappler brings to the game is generally toptier tools on a character that is designed to be able to take more hits and oopsie your healthbar on any of their hits. Alternatively if you don't believe archetypes eventually change from "zoner rushdown grappler" to "toptier" as the archetype you have a character that is still defined by being slow and clunky but you somehow don't have a reliable answer. This should only happen if the game doesn't let you do what you want and you're forced to play similarly clunky or the toptier grappler has a tool that basically changes the game to compensate for being a slow clunky character. No matter which of these situations it is, I think overall losing scraps to a character with better tools, not being able to do what you want to do cause the game won't let you or "neutral skip" options that compensate so hard a slow clunky character is the toptier all seem really polarizing at the very least. At least my "fair and honest" toptier zoners/rushdowns/allrounders/whatever still can't just scrap whenever with their low health, can be toptier without the opposing character having to be less option heavy or be toptiers just by having conventional good stuff.
I started out loving rushdown/mix put you in the blender vortex type characters. Then I switched and fell in love with zoners. It's a hard life out here for a zoner unless our character is broken and happens to just have it all. People need to stop crying and learn how to walk in and block, shit!!!
I’ve played shotos for years and for Uni 2 im switching to waldstein. I may even start playing Potemkin im GG as well. I think grapplers and zoners are important and deserve their time in the sun a bit. My worry is that characters are getting a bit homogeneous, it feels like 90% of every roster is a rushdown character now, even the “zoners” you can play like rushdown. Shotos as well are more or less rewarded for playing rushdown. We need these archetypes for variety
Good video! Im cool with most any zoner, I personally get tilted by grapplers more often but depends on the char. Sometimes with grapplers I'm just left feeling like I lost to *gimmicks* more than being outplayed. Like in SFV I've got Zangief knocked down in the corner a tap away, but he presses V shift to CA on wake-up so I take 40% and a HKD for pressing a meaty. Just feels lame to me. But hey, that's their option and I need to consider it! Like Sajam says, change my gameplan. I'm seriously considering Manon in SF6 so I may join grappler nation
On a very basic level I can understand the frustration because when you haven’t figured out the fundamentals yet, it feels like zoners and grapplers have the tools to essentially not have to play the game the way you do. Like, if a big part of your time spent playing the game is figuring out how to block attacks, and how to use frame traps/pressure/high-low mixups to open up people blocking, it feels like the grapplers essentially have the tools to bypass that aspect of the game. Same way if you need to get in, space properly, know footsies etc - to be able to just run away and (in their view) “spam” projectiles can feel like they’re playing a different game than your Karin or whatever. Now, if zoners/grapplers are “top tier”, a lot of the time what that means is that there’s not really anything straightforward when it comes to countering the gameplan of the zoner/grappler. You have to know the matchup inside out. If you’re playing a mid tier rushdown and your opponent is a top tier grappler, or if you’re playing a mid tier grappler and your opponent is a top tier zoner, you’re fighting for your life. But that’s a simplistic view of what “the game” is. The developers put in zoners and grapplers to diversify the “ecosystem” of the game. You have to look at the zoning/grappling tools as a puzzle to decipher, not as just an obstacle in your path.
Hmm I always thought they didn't get top place is because devs dont know how to balance them as well as typical archetypes because of their difference? We also see cases like XX Potemkin, Zangeif Sf4 where they actually were some of the best characters in the game only for future versions to nerf them to lower them relatively. Though I wonder if Devs do see people dont like zoners or grapplers so they decide to gut them.
It's probably both. They are hard to balance, because if you don't keep their stuff outside of their specialty on the weak side, they steamroll. If you do keep it down, it makes their specialty harder to execute as well, usually making them underpowered. And because developers know people generally don't like them, they will usually settle for them being weak as it creates fewer problems.
I dont get why poeple dont like good grapplers, they are atleast interactive. I feel the biggest issue with top tier zoners is this tends to manifest as a completely uninteractive wall of projectiles where you sit full screen and block, no neutral, no big reads, often easy to operate but stupidly hard to circumvent or requires big reads to even begin to approach.
You rarely see a zoner that nuts these days, but yeah, good luck getting a hit in against something like O. Sagat if you don't have a good understanding of SF2. Most likely result is a bunch of loses with perfects.
I remember when MK11 came out and people saw Cetrion being like the third best in some of the early tourneys and everyone HATED it. Same for Glacius in KI.
I get both sides, at the end of the day it's just another archetype, but I also get it from the low and mid level players perspectives. It's cause grapplers and zoners really limit your options lol.
this may be the uni player in me speaking, but i dont think zoners being top tier is really that big of an issue. i enjoy the change in pace fighting them, getting in on a zoner after learning the patterns feels so good, and really only feels better the stronger they are. they can have good damage, but grapplers usually have more of a knowledge check game to them by the nature of Game Design.
I think it depends a lot on the type of game. In games with strong movement options you can try to move around their zoning and get in one ago. As opposed to a game where you just have to slowly crouch block your way in.
I think a big element is that both zoners and grapplers are defined as much by their weaknesses as their successes so being top tier means they really are nearly unbeatable.
I love playing as a grappler myself. I think another aspect of hate for these archetypes is watching too. Zoners are not fun to watch. If you're a casual and you're watching a zoner chip and push out the other fighter, it's not super fun. Grapplers do make hype moments, but they end matches quick too if they get the opponent in the 50 50. Grapplers are the grand poo-bahs of robbery, and zoners are a close second. If a grappler has even a sliver of life, and has the command grab, they can turn it around IMMEDIATELY, and zoners, if they can get the space, can fireball you into oblivion.
Does it make sense for problematic archtypes to exist as long as *some* characters counter them? When you're just queing online for a match, you don't get to pick if you want to counter your opponent's character.
I'd much rather lose to a grappler/zoner than lose to a small character. Like why do all my air moves miss on you? What do you mean my mids don't hit you when you're crouching what is that BS?
You the force a grappler to change thier game plan if you play well, Zoners gameplay is never forced to changed. They always have round start advantage and just an advantage in general. Grapplers have to actually work for their advantage.
As a zoner play i hate pure rushdown player. All they do is hold foward and press buttons and be plus, no brain power needed. Or i tell them Oh its wrong that zoners make you play and think diffrently but its ok for a top tier rushdown character lock you up the whole game in the corner. Like people get mad when i say that about rushdown but its ok to say thar about zoners are too easy and brainded. They require no skill and spam. Fight like a man and play the game normally. Im tired of this uneeded hate we get.
I think the big thing is ending reward. People don't like having to change their style to get in on zones or keep away from grapplers. But if they do so, they're rewarded with winning, so people ultimately suck it up. When those two archetypes are too strong, people have to change their playstyle, which they don't like to do in the first place, and then they still get their ass beat. The reward for doing something you don't want to do, winning, is taken away, taking away any incentive to fight those characters. Players don't get to do what they like doing, and even changing how they play doesn't reward them in any way. That's never fun.
People being upset at natural archetypes existing happens constantly in card games as well. In MtG it's a meme that newer players hate control and combo type decks. I think in each case the blame sort of lies in fighting games presenting rushdown as the norm that characters can deviate FROM, and card games presenting aggro as the norm that decks can deviate FROM.
Interesting. I usually frame the way Virtua Fighter is immune to the grappler hate as being largely because VF is kinda allergic to simple archetypes. But the fact that every character is all about different kinds of mix-ups means that you've bought into accepting that gameplan from step 1. The one character who actually forces you to change your gameplan is Taka, because his super heavy weight means he can't be juggled as easily and a lot of key combos don't work on him. Doesn't matter that there are a lot more weight tiers that affect combos, Taka is by far the most noticeable. And so in beginner/intermediate play Taka is regarded as a very frustrating character, and a good noob killer for beginners just looking to climb ranks. But after a certain point everyone just agrees that high level VF is nothing but knowledge checks anyways, and Taka's differences really aren't much worse than learning any other matchup
What i'm understanding is that it's basically because hardly ever the midrange shoto type character is strong because they leak into another archetype, they just kill you but when the zoner or grappler character is strong it's because they stop having their usual weaknesses and sort of do everything. I personally don't mind who the top tier of the game is as long as they're not the top tier because they represent only one super strong option that beats everything. Having 8 lukes in capcom cup might be a little stale but at least he's just a good all rounder and not mindless.
"If you give a grappler everything and get rid of all of their weaknesses it's how you get top tier grapplers" funny that the best example wasn't mentioned - DBFZ Broly, the best grappler in the game that also had the best zoning, long range but still quick normals, incredible gap closing potential, absurd damage with meter and also an ability to completely blank the one archetype meant to specifically counter slow close range characters
I always immediately mainline grapplers and I’ve been thinking about why people think I’m a scumbag and actually I think part of it is the same reason I like grapplers. I’m lazy/intermediate at best and don’t have to do as much work to get big damage as I would with lengthy comboes on other characters. in my eye, grapplers are just a little more straightforward in the moment to moment. Xrd rev 2 Potemkin is peak though, so much more variety
To me, fighting games are about overcoming your own self so you can overcome the opponent. If you can't control your emotions, you deserve to lose. This is why annoying characters are important.
Zoning with no interesting universal mechanics for it is my bane, I wanna do COOL interactions with the wall of projectiles and area denial not shuffle slowly and block. I fucking love the reflect properties on a well timed shield in Smash Melee, you can take someone's offence starting laser or pestering missile and send it back to them with any character if you got that DAWG in ya.
People hate losing to grapplers because being cornered and physically dominated by a larger, stronger opponent reminds them of being bullied in high school.
As a casual observer, it really seems like Sim was irrelevant for 95% of the game's lifespan, then one day someone won a tournament and the hate train had already departed the station with every seat full. Was there like a distinct "We're buffing the hell out of this guy" patch or did someone just figure him out?
He was getting buffed throughout all of SFV basically, but the biggest one was V-shift getting implemented. Now he had another universal defensive mechanic on top of all his good stuff.
I'd say I'm ok with most top tier grapplers and zoners, even if they are frustrating. I have 2 exceptions are Peacock from Skullgirls, who is the most frustrating zoner of all time, and I've been in the middle of Soul Fist spam. I haven't been in the injustice sauce, so maybe there was something worse there. The other is less criminal, but it was Android 16 from dragonball, and that was because I had to play him because he fit my team too perfectly over any other assist or character at the time, and I found him mad boring, despite making my other 2 characters way more fun.
I saw you discuss Martian manhunter in a different video, and he gave off similar vibes to why I hated Peacock. Zoner that also had crazy mixups, full screen teleports that let you stay out if your opponent got close and absurd damage for your archetype.
Ibuki vs Hugo in third strike is super fun. ibuki either getting rag dolled or Ibuki running circles and stunning Hugo into stupidity. It’s my favorite rush down vs grappler match As long as zoners or grapplers are execution heavy, i feel theyre justified
Yup. Casuals like to mash buttons. Zoners and grapplers. However, i dont think putting zoners and grapplers in the same category paints an accurate picture Zoners are hated drastically more than grapplers. Grapplers are hated more by intermediate level players and above than casuals and casuals always make up the largest portion of any game. Most grapplers actually take some effort to play effectively but "spamming" fireballs is easy to do and hard for beginners to get around
I have a casual mindset when it comes to comp fighting games but from I’ve learned people (including myself) hate zoners and grapplers because once they go, they do not stop
*reads title* I think its because players don't want to feel like they don't have options. Some grapplers don't give you space and some zoners are just out of reach. I say this as an average fighting game player.
Zoners are fine outside of NRS games. Grapplers are usually annoying, depending on the type. Like you have the giefs that just have to walk at you, but one good hit and it could be curtains depending on their skill level. Those aren't bad, but once you get into the tager/pot tier where they have genuine options, it's more annoying than fun a lot of the times. Just imo. Hell even haggar in mvc3 has so many options despite being so bad on paper, but he gets that touch, you got crossups for days, lariat into punch super, or level 3, and just loads of resets and crazy damage too. In general I prefer them closer to brawlers that may happen to have a command grab. The whole guessing on wake up if the dude is gonna throw me is not enjoyable.
@@HeirofDacia Yeah but outside of marvel 3 (only game I can think of where this matters), normal grabs are usually slower than the command grabs. Let alone the range advantage in most cases.
People don't enjoy hugs. Usually thinking you have the best offence in the entire game just to leave a 5-frame gap and getting command grabbed for 30% of your life probably doesn't feel very good, I wouldn't know I'm the grappler that loves doing that shit. On the zoner side, it feels hopeless like you just aren't allowed to do anything, a top-tier zoner makes you doubt any move you're making and frustrates you to no end. One makes you overthink trying to go in and press buttons and punishes you if you are not patient. the other one makes you regret not pressing buttons and punishes you for being scared. A good grappler or zoner player forces you to play differently. A good grappler or zoner character makes you feel like there's no counterplay. That's why both archetypes can't be top tier, it would kill the enjoyment for a lot of players. Honestly, I do like that zoners and grapplers are mid or low-tier, it makes it feel more rewarding when you actually catch a W. I play grappler in most games I play, with the occasional zoner or bulshit character here and there (Pot, Axl, Faust, Testament, Tager, Susano, Slayer, Grappler and Lost Warrior) and I agree, those characters shouldn't be top tier, they would make the game miserable for everyone else. Thanks for reading this wall of text, have a nice day!
I think a big deal about grapplers is the mental damage they inflict when you lose to them. When you get perfected by Nago because he killed you in 2 interactions you're just like "well thats just how it is" When you die to Pot because you guessed wrong and he busters you 3 times in a row you just feel like the biggest fucking idiot in the world.
People just don't want to think. They want to do their gameplan and have the opponent just buckle. Only times characters shouldn't be Top tier, is when they're blatantly OP like Like or OG Abigail, Etc.
It's not just that. If a matchup means you don't get to do what the character was built to do, that can get dull really fast. One example of that kind of thing is eg. Fuerte. If I boot up Street Fighter, I want to play Street Fighter. I booted the game because that's the experience I'd like to have. Then what do I get? "antiair spastic goofball trying to do silly things". Yeah, I'll pass, thanks.
I think there's a third archetype that fits into the same sort of dynamic as grapplers and zoners, and that's pixie characters. Ultra-mobile characters tend to force you to play significantly differently in the same way and tend to be incredibly toxic when top-tier, usually due to having overtuned win conditions or just having tools that warp neutral so heavily that typical neutral is out of the question.
Thats not a polarizing character thats just a top tier well rounded character or a too tier rushdown character, sometimes both. Theyre always top tier and honestly theyre fine because they arent polarizing and can still be fought in different ways. Youre thinking of cammy and karin and i know youre thinking of cammy and karin cause theres nothing “pixie” about rashid, akuma, devil jin, dragonuv, yun, ken, steve, or characters from other fighters i dont play. When a character like geif, sim, menat or say… deadshot are top tier, they SUPER invalidate atleast 1/3 of the match and beat the rest of the cast. I dont mean invalidate like a 6-4 match up, it could be as bad as 1/3 the cast gets 8-2’d and theres no hard counters, just 5-5 match ups with ONLY the characters that are supposed to beat their archetype. Thats why polarizing characters should NEVER be top tier or even high tier really. Trust me you rather have those low health high mobility all arounders be the best in the game compared to others.
@@yurifairy2969 No they don't. Competent players force you to play smart. I don't actually have to use my brain more against Potemkin than I do against Sol. I'm saying that getting hit normally makes me think I need to improve while getting command grabbed makes me wonder how I passed 3rd grade. It's purely emotional.
I think it's simpler than that. What set off the handshake rivalry? Nemo complaining about Zangief being "spin to win". Grapplers and zoners by design do not have elaborate combos. Grapplers throw, which ends a combo; zoners are at range where less combos are present. Other players are jealous that they have to memorize timings to press buttons. Grapplers and zoners have to memorize spacing, and the skill doesn't show as much.
My main complaint of zoners is that its never a combo.. its stray hits. Ive used a zoner and adopted the style a little but... all the strays hits dont mean anything with one big girthy hit by someone with more sustainable/consistent combos cause of positioning (rushdown up in my business).
Abigail was big and had a grab, but I don't think that means he was a grappler. If Fei Long was big, would he be a grappler? Yun? Abigail was a striker. His primary threat was his big normals, not his command grab.
NRS zoner? Yes, I can see the complaint. But in almost any other game, the zoners are far more balanced. But you also have different types of zoners. A 'Sim zoning is quite different than a Guile zoning.
Losing to a zoner or grappler also probably does the most ego damage. Broadly -zoners dismantle your movement, grapplers poke holes in your offense, rush down exposes your defense.
Gamers in the Salt mines don't care if their defense is whack.
Good point, but I think it's even simpler than that. If you lose to a grappler, you generally Lose Big. If you win against a zoner, you usually Win Small. Neither one feels very good.
True.
@@vaderwalks I feel like the worst bit about fighting someone with grabby-hands is that you can be winning with a massive life-lead, and then they touch you ONE TIME, and you're on the verge of death.
The thing about winning small against a zoner: bullseye. Because a zoner's whole job is to deny you the chance to play the game XD
Grapplers might poke holes in offense, but at a mechanical level they threaten your defense. Blocking isn't a safe option.
@@antonsimmons8519 You're not wrong. On the grappler's end, they (probably) had to bust their ASS off to get in and hit you once, so it had better be rewarding when they do so. But to their opponent, that effort doesn't necessarily show on the screen, and it seems like 'you were losing the whole time and then I died when you got lucky'.
Everyone complains about grapples as top tiers, but we're all ignoring the real top tier grappler: Japanese SFV Zangief.
itazan goated frfr
Its kinda funny how everyone forgets FAB's Potemkin. Now that guy was cooking. He made Pot look like a top 3 character.
@@gcal8263 Itazan hasnt played Gief in like a year, he mostly plays G these days
Asase
@@gliath888 literally he is the only pot that is talked about lmfao what do you mean
Excellent video. I always see specialist characters like grapplers and zoners get a lot of hate when they’re good (and sometimes when they’re not even good) and it makes me kind of sad because a lot of them are really well designed and cool. In the present day, where the viability of the characters is much closer together than the past, I don’t see why they can’t be top tier, as long as the core of their strengths and weaknesses are intact.
Thats the problem tho they arent. Zoners like Happy Chaos zone u and then when u get close they have like the best 2s and 2k along with 5k and 6s. Like why did they think making happy chaos the best zoner as well as having the best up close buttons is just beyond me.
True but at that point your hoping for the mystical top tiers everyone thinks their game will have next patch that will be completely fine and no one will complain about™️
@@maxrusty3596 okay but Happy Chaos can't zone anymore so does it even matter at this point? clearly Arc Sys didn't want the character to work that way.
@@TwentySeven1337 Except the fact that he can zone just fine. Oh and also he has some of the best mix in the game. as well as mid range, long range and up close. His only draw back is meter management they think were fucking stupid. Thats why Nago has been broken for so long they think managing a meter is hard to make ur character the best in the game but it really isnt for some ppl.
They're well-designed, when they're not super top-tier/best in the game. There's no counterplay on top of the forced gameplan when they're too good
People hate zoners and grapplers because they are archetypes you by default have to respect. People hate respecting others' gameplan.
Even more so, the average player likes to aggressively rush, and both of these archetypes neutralize the chance to even do so (let alone win by doing so).
No I don’t mind zoners just hate grapplers or characters like balrog in sfv. just don’t find it fun to change my entire play style to counter a balrog. You say the same about zoners but at least with zoners I could simply get close and it’s a mind game to a certain extent. Grapplers is just oh look you misinput and or didn’t punish my single button command grab that does 30%
I don't think it's that they hate respecting others gameplay. It's that they hate that they don't have to respect theirs back. A strong zoner/grappler just does their thing no matter who they're playing and that's annoying.
@@joshlemagne bro, that's the point of the game, you have to take back control
@@joshlemagne That's what it looks like but in reality they have to adjust to their opponent.
Grapplers and zoners are also the biggest scrubkillers (take it from me, a scrub)
So it's much more relatable for the greater audience when the top player that thinks they're entitled to win goes "blah blah blah gorilla grappler blah blah blah zoner takes no skill"
There's this one tier list of BlazBlue Central Fiction I always think about that has the conventionally accepted placements for all the characters, except the entire background of the tier list is Tager, because he is simultaneously the best, worst, and most mid tier character. I don't remember who made it, but I really liked it a lot.
I love Tager. Grapplers are the best because they make me laugh.
Magnets are hilarious
I think there's also a nontrivial number of players who just reflexively hate any gameplan that isn't theirs, with the anti zoner/grappler bias a function of there being fewer people playing those archetypes
I literally only hate dhalsim, fuck dhalsim. I like every other zoner
I mean, 'honest = what I don't lose to' is a tale as old as time.
this is the realest answer
Accurate. If I'm losing, this character sucks. lmao
true, rushdown is braindead, why wont u play neutral with me >:c >:c >:c
I remember how much hate Morrigan players caught in Marvel vs Capcom 3. She's probably the strongest zoner in any game I've ever played. She didn't have some of the problems as normal zoners like Sajam was talking about. Morrigan had AMAZING pressure and offense with her fireballs, and also she had amazing defense with a 1 frame unfly making everything she did safe, a DP, and an invincible super that could beat Spencer's Bionic Arm. Like you don't automatically win by getting in on Morrigan because she's a strong character
The worst thing about _UMvC3_ Morrigan is that she would have been *super* easy to make non-oppressive too. All that really had to change is that Astral Vision ended when she got hit. That's literally all would have needed to change for her to not oppressive but still be very good, especially given how stupid a lot of her hitboxes and hurtboxes are and would still be. Sigh. Oh well. Disney's greed ruins something else. What a surprise.
Personally I still found C. Viper and especially Zero even more obnoxious than Morrigan, helped by the fact that they got unneeded buffs going into _UMvC3_ like she did but somehow dumber still. (I still hope whoever decided Zero needed more health and cancel options while characters like Arthur and Hsien-ko got jackshit fell down stairs...that were on fire.)
@@MusicoftheDamned I disagree on the Morrigan change, she just needs to not build meter in astral like other installs. Getting hit and losing astral feels unfairly targeted towards specifically her since no other install has the same effect, you just need to make hers more in line with other installs.
Zero is uh, one of the characters of all time, easily top 2.
I have to ask which of these 3 was more problematic. Zero, Phoenix or Morrigan? I never understood Morrigan hate when Zero and Phoenix were in the game
@@ghostfire1192 Yeah, not gaining meter would probably be fine too even though it could be subverted by that stupid draining fireball she got and/or using Amaterasu's meter-building assist. I was going to suggest that as an alternative, but it's been so long since I've watched her oppress anyone while being bored to tears that I couldn't remember if she actively built meter herself or just through missiles and TAC bullshit. That she still gets to gain meter definitely the dumbest part of Astral Vision.
That said, getting punished on hit still seems like it would be fine to me even if, yeah, ir would be atypical of installs. Not like they're all the same way right now anyway though between stuff like Ryu randomly losing health while using his, Dante and Virgil gaining back health on top of a bunch of other things, Jill becoming unable to block at all, and poor Arthur getting *completely* fucked over for his *at all* as if he didn't have a dozen other glaring issues already. Morrigan would still be far better than half of those characters with only one bigger weakness, and I doubt anyone would feel bad for her beyond ChrisG himself.
@@MusicoftheDamned A lot of Morrigan players are in modern marvel besides Chris, but although each install does a different thing, they all generally follow the rule of no meter build for the most part. Losing install on hit is just too punishing even for Morrigan
Also Arthur install is good, it needs a downside because a 20 second install with increased damage, reduced damage taken, and additional move properties with zero downside would be really strong, it's easily in the top half of installs in the game
I like fighting zoners and grapplers. It feels like some weird challenge / puzzle mode where you're probably good so long as you understand what their deal is.
That's the spirit dude 👍
Imagine what people think of Z Broly that can be both a zoner with his ki blast, a grappler with his 17 frame armored grab that can just level 3 to get like half of your health stole and a tank with his lariat
I'm more of an A16 guy. If you don't hit confirm, I'll go boom 😃
Broly decided he wanted to be both
Also, broly has a lot more stuff in that kit as well, they really wanted him to go nuts
Broly's effective range IS the screen! Bwahahaha
DBFZ Zoning isn't a real Zoning, it's only a very lose version of it, and it's true to Z Broly as well. The chip damage from all projectiles is very small across the board and you can't kill the opponent via cheap, on top of the fact that in addition to the already broken Super Dash, there's also the Vanish and also the super arc jump, all of those can bypass Zoning super easily. All the Zoning does in DBFZ is just lure the opponent to come to you so you can bait them into combos, but there's no true pace control or Keepaway via Zoning.
but that character was actually stupid
Zoners change the match up so much more than grapplers imo, at lower skill it also makes it much easier to prevent people from playing the game for way longer.
People hate characters based around long range keep away and short range exclusive characters in almost every game. Take tf2 for example, probably the 2 most hated classes are sniper and pyro. A long range marksman who kills you when no one else can, and a short range class that has to work hard to get in but then has very high damage up close. Very different mechanics, but the emotions people have towards these rough play styles transcend genres.
This is a good point
Pyro isn't hated for the same reason grapplers are hated though. People hate Pyro because Pyro is perceived as a low skill class (so you have something to whine about when you die), and fighting a Pyro using their flamethrower it's basically impossible to get away from that fight without getting lit on fire for at least a little bit. Pyro is more like a grappler vs Soldier and Demo though, because an airblasted pipe or rocket might as well be an SPD
@@NeoBoneGirl I'm sorry to say, but grapplers are also perceived as low skill characters who simply have to get in range once with their subpar mobility to murder you. (people don't even consider that, maybe just don't let them in)
I will say, damage over time SPD is certainly a thought.
@@yosha101 "just don't let them in" is the biggest tell of a grappler player lmao, you might as well say "just get in" as zoner MU advice
@@NeoBoneGirl Yes I am being reductive, Pyro can flank/ambush and grapplers often have a neutral skipper, point is, you can do something about it, by being aware of what tools the grappler has and what paths the pyro can take you can mitigate their effectiveness.
And ultimately this goes for all characters, the only difference is the perception of low skill and how hard you can knowledge check some dude with detonator jumps or with tick throw setups.
Vatista chilling over in UNI like "lol come at me I cant even be counter hit"
Enkidu: the fuck you say to me you little shit?!
They were 100% off the goop when they came up with that child
Even funnier is the fact that one of the _UNI_ characters' gimmicks is based around counter hits, correct? That Enkidu dude I think? Does he even affect her or is that just some hilarious 9-1 match-up?
@@MusicoftheDamned Vatista's best matchup is Waldstein who pretty much cant play against her. Shit is asinine.
@@Kibotsu.squiggle Guess I can't say I'm surprised to learn that given Waldenstein's huge ass body just cries out to be oppressed by lasers from full-screen. Poor bastard.
They can also both naturally frustrating to play against, because of what you mentioned where you can't run your standard game plan. And I think because of this players who thrive on reads, or hard reads, tend to get in your head easier when you're frustrated, essentially looping your frustration making it easier for them to beat you. The perceived tier placement of Graplers and Zonners tend to be higher I think because on paper they usually look bad, frame data/MUs etc; but because they can steal a round, or poke you out which can be annoying, they can tilt you easier which makes you like panicked prey to them lmao. Which I think tier lists can make worse, take Pot in Strive for example. Most look at him as a 'bad character', but I think he's terrifying to play against at a high level. Celestial Pot players sometimes make me feel like I've never played a FG before, and I'm pretty sure some of them can straight up see the future lol.
Speaking of, I can't wait to see how they let Gief cook in SF6. Until I actually see it in game, I can't help but worry they're gonna go the "grappler can't drive rush" path, make them go a shorter distance or some other limitation. I just want a little bit of mayhem.
Let's hope they've learned a lot from SFV Gief's design.
Nah, I don't think they will do that, it's not good to gut characters, eg. Potemkin from guilty gear can't double jump or air dash, that's not good
@@ratedr7845 Pot can double jump though, but he is in fact unable to air dash.
@@keltzar1 Neither do the universal dash cancel.
LOL
Spitting facts as always. Polarized archetypes generally are busted when their weaknesses aren't as pronounced as they should be. Something worth noting on top of this is that polarization can magnify the busted nature of a character.
For example, people are already a bit annoyed that they have to change their game plan against zoners. And then if they suffer through that nonsense to get close range, the part where they should get to play *their game* again, and just get rolled by some ridiculous defense the zoner shouldn't have then people get upset because they feel robbed. After all, they did the correct thing and got close range on a zoner, so it feels bad to be punished for that
Every rush down lacks it's weakness being pronounced enough. They should deal less damage.
Spittin' facts as always. I personally love zoners because they often feel the most rewarding for creativity. Any game/character that lets me freestyle in neutral is an S+ in my books.
Right? Shooting patterns for pressure is fun af, and it feels VERY good to condition an opponent to fall for your zoning setup.
And it's that screen control that drew you to zoning that drives people so crazy.
People get salty when stuck on defense.
They get real salty when their offense is constantly shut down
@@KittSpiken sounds like a skill issue
@@shucklecopter8271 that's because it is. But more of a personality issue
@@KittSpiken I agree with you. I love zoning, but I do not pretend what I'm doing is at all fun for my opponent. I'm doing my best to make sure he can't play, which is how zoning is done XD
The way I've always looked at it is like this: People (both players and spectators) want games to be won by the winner having beaten their opponent fairly (AKA without cheating/through pure skill).
In a lot of people's eyes Zoners don't win by outplaying the opponent, their opponent loses to them because they aren't given a chance to use their skill. The focus is on the loser losing, not the winner winning.
Grapplers on the other hand tend to have massive armored or guard-breaking specials that do so much more damage than any singular move of any other archetype. They make it so that their opponent's skill doesn't matter, because "playing neutral" against armor "doesn't work" and Grapplers spit in the face of people holding back and utilizing defense. This diminishes the "calculated and thoughtful play from the Grappler's honest opponent" that people tend to want to see.
Obviously both archetypes are normally (or at least should normally be) designed with the appropriate drawbacks to not make them absolute demons to deal with. Zoners shouldn't be good up close, and Grapplers should have trouble getting close. Those drawbacks are supposed to be inherent to the archetypes, and that's supposed to make it so that the differences in the Zoner's or Grappler's playstyle and thought processes are shown in their gameplay (like a Guile setting up a wall of Booms and forcing their opponent to choose one of their two anti-fireball tools that they read and punish or a Gief conditioning their opponent to stop throwing fireballs because they keep getting EX Siberien Expressed only to walk up to them and SPD them to hell). But when a Zoner can get around someone's "honest rushdown" and a Grappler can get around someone's "honest turtling" people don't see it as getting outplayed. They see it as getting gimmicked.
To be fair it is still getting outplayed but with grapplers and zoners it can feel like you lost simply because you don't know how to counter the opponent rather than them actually outplaying you despite you knowing how to counter them.
There's nothing wrong with a zoner or grappler being top-tier. Unless a character is flat-out broken, it's not like it's even as bad as an 8-2 in most modern fighters. Balance in major titles is generally better these days.
agree, but some people may find the matchups un fun. i personally don't, and most of my friends grappler players, so i never understood how it wasn't fun.
@@noakinn I've played every archetype extensively in multiple games(except puppet characters. that's just not for me), and honestly, imo, grapplers are consistently harder to win with.
Imo, that alone justifies a top-tier character.
@@noakinnI play with a grappler friend too and I don’t find a problem with them. Make them guess wrong once and it’s just like any other character. Zoners on the other hand don’t let you play the game and may only let you get a single interaction in before you have to work your way in again. It isn’t to say that they’re braindead but coming from a SoulCalibur background it’s always felt like low risk high reward for them instead of the high risk high reward grapplers have to deal with.
@@Shiratto oh yeah, i agree with what you said about zoners, which is ironic because i main peacock in skullgirls
Daaang sajam calling everybody out. Hit em witha little bit of "skill issue"
The only character I've ever truly despised is Tamaki Aquapazza. She has the command grab and damage of a traditional grappler but none of the drawbacks. Her mobility was in fact better than most of the cast since she had short hop/high jump (which most chars didn't have) and her forward dash was a run. Zoning was already bad in that game because of the emotion system, but she was extra unzonable because on top of the fast movement she had a full screen unblockable eye lasers that lowered your emotion on hit and was comboable at certain ranges. Her 720 did absurd damage, she could loop oki, cover jump outs with assists into air unblockable moves. She had an insanely fast god press super that you could do between strings or to punish normally safe moves with pushback. Absolute menace of a character.
As a grappler main, this makes so much sense. I mostly play strive, and people HATE potemkin despite him being arguably bottom 3. It's because whenever someone doesn't know how to play against him, they struggle. Anyway, bring back beta potemkin.
Peoplpe fear what they don't understand. I've liked Potemkin since X2 Reload but now i'm trying to learn Axl in Strive too which is quite funny and ironic.
potemkin is definitely bottom 1 lol
Pot is fun as hell to play and I don’t care what anyone says. I miss all his options from rev 2 though, but that can be said about a couple characters. Strive still rips though
@@jacket9306 fun fact, axl's english voice actor is a potemkin main, so the pot spirit is still with you
@@MUGENanaya Hah that’s brilliant. Now that i think about it, maybe grapplers and zoners aren’t so different after all. Both made to terrorize people even when they aren’t top tiers.
I remember whenever my friends and I picked up new fighting games I would always choose the grappler, and people *haaaated* me for it. None of them liked having to change up their rushdown play style to accommodate for me taking advantage of their unsafe block chains which left them open for command grabs.
You play grapplers? Based and goated
I've had years of Blazblue gameplay where I play my main as Nu-13 (or Lambda when available), and my roommate plays as his main, Tager.
It's like the perfect Yin and Yang. I struggle desperately to stay out of his range and not magnetized, trying to whittle down an absolute mountain with a thousand ranged cuts, while he strategically inches ever closer from one side of the screen to the other just looking for one careless opportunity to annihilate half my health bar. It's about as stressful as any match can get from my experience (minus the fact that I'm just not good enough to stop rush down characters consistently), but we both love it. We're each in our element and trying to do exactly what our characters were set up to do.
My other friend that mains Ragna hates fighting both of us. It's hilarious.
This made me crack a smile. Being right in your element is honestly the best ever feeling in a fighting game and i can attest to the zoner vs grappler matchup being DREADFULL (especially on the zoner side cause you have control). Weirdly enough the rushdown archetype is really one-sided here
Tfw chipp players in strive complained about garuda impact pre nerf, when chipp can literally take turns at will
I thought it was just the lay of the land. On the grapplers side, everyone who doesn't play them seem to dislike them and want to never see a buff or improvement given.
It's incredibly common to see people say "Glue eater grappler mindset". It's all good to have a laugh at all types of chars, but often people take those (consistent) jokes to be a proper endorsement of hating a character archetype. Which leads to something like patch note discussions - those types will roll over to grappler notes, see they got a QoL or something and go "Omg! Why! He didn't need that!". it is what it is, i guess.
Anti-Rushdown Movement 2k23. I'm tired of rushdown being top tier in every game, and people acting like it's skillful then turning around and calling the midtier zoner of their game a "mindless spammer." Some these chars been getting away with murder.
Hey it's perfectly fine for a small body character to slap on some ice skates, full screen nanospeed dash into a 5f low that leads to 40% + oki. Potemkin walking for 3 days to get into CG range, then doing 35% - can't have that!
It's insane how much bullshit rushdown characters are allowed to get away with.
Meanwhile, Noel and Makoto being bottom tier in BBCF 🙃
Preemptively letting myself down gently after finding out that even with my boy Geif is getting an antiair-grab in SF6, that he's still only going to be midtier at best. Feelssadman.
Gief has never had an issue in the anti air department. Lariat has always been super reliable
Being mid tier isn't a bad thing. What matters is how large of a gap there is between the tiers.
I think you hit the nail right on the head, and I think this also applies to pretty much anything, from people hating control decks in card games to people hating certain types of weapons in shooters.
As a grappler main, I don't care if they are top-tier. I also like it when they have a clear weakness. It makes the character more interesting.
What I do care about is certain characters always being top tier in every game. Why does akuma always have to be good in every street fighter game? Same for Steve Fox in tekken.
I just wish top-tier characters had more weaknesses or be more punishable on block.
To be fair, by design, akuma or steve being bad is hard
Because their core design is versatility, and versatile chars are almost always good
So unless they say, nerfed their dmg to the floor, akuma and steve WILL always be good
@HELLRAISER O2 very true. Also, these characters require execution, especially Steve Fox. The reward for learning the characters and putting in the time is being able to run the gameplan easily. For example, a really good Steve can stay really safe, use a small set of moves, use fundamentals, and win any matchup. The reason he can do this is because he doesn't have any kick moves, so he needs to be good in other areas.
Also the hard truth is there always has to be a top tier. if winning mattered that much I would pick them too.
And tbh I'm just sick of seeing the same top tiers win every tournament.
@@buddhaboy10000 if theyre hard and good, then theyre cool
Also tourney wins are usually cuz of a player, if say, knee wanted to, he could try winning with negan, a mid tier, and i think he did 1 time recently or it was winners finals and not grand finals
@HELLRAISER O2 I'm torn. On the one hand if you put in the time to learn the execution you should be rewarded. But on the other hand I don't think you should necessarily use execution as a balancing tool. I believe characters should have risk reward. The problem with Steve is he can be played so compact and take minimal risk that it's hard to beat a really good Steve. At least with the majority of the cast they have to commit to a risky move every now and then.
Also I disagree about players winning tournaments not characters. This is wrong. Just look at that one tekken world tournament where everyone used leeroy and fakkumram 😆.
Hell every top player in tournament has a pocket Steve, geese, akuma etc.
@@buddhaboy10000 1. While steves often safe and compact at high level, many chars play more safe n compact at high level because whiff punishes are so strong
2. The only reason leroy n fahk took over is cuz they literally broke the balance of the game, they got nerfed and now they dont dominate tournaments with their pinkies, that was a much more extreme case of top tiers
The thing is a character with overtuned midrange options like Ramlethal also changes how you have to play the game, like if we both use a button in the middle of the screen the Ram player likely counter hits you into the corner and sets up sword toss pressure, meaning your character has to avoid midrange either becoming a zoner or a rushdown character.
High-level potemkin execution on par with Zato and Happy Chaos, look where we are. You really gotta bust your hands for the tech to get a better shot at busting your opponent.
To be honest this hits harder with a platform fighter because your usual zoner/trapper tend to be more dynamic then their traditional fighter counterparts and often harder to use as a result
Yet whenever one wins, they usually get accused of being a brain dead spammer even though they objectively have a steeper learning curve then your usual rush downs lol
I like grapplers because they have a very simple game plan with a very simple tool kit. The act of using those tools to circumvent the enemies defense makes it incredibly satisfying.
As a Grappler player, you have to consider the tools the opponent has on hand and adjust. If a player can't adjust to what a grappler brings, thats on the player, not the archetype.
Let the salt flow imo. My steak is under seasoned.
As a Zoning player myself, I can tell Zoning just forces you to actually be patient and be good at the game. It's not just that it forces you to play the game differently, yes it is a part of it but it's much more than that. Of course if you ran into a casual player online that has no intention of being good and just wanna play it occasionally for fun, his or her reaction can be understandable, but the real problem comes when more intermediate players, those that play fighting games on regular basis and try to grind the game, even if it's not on a competitive level, still complain about Zoning and try to make excuses about it, because they don't wanna deal with it. It literarily exposes the other players' experience and understanding of the game, they claim that they wanna grind the game, regardless if it's for E-Sports or intermediate level, but then bitch when something forces them to play the game not in their way.
People need to understand that things won't always go there way, and not all things can be changed to fit their comfort. Zoning in fighting games is one of those things. Can't handle it? Don't blame the game, blame yourself.
I think the real issue is that fighting games are a terrible fucking sport that is itself a horrible abstraction of real fighting. If people grinded boxing or MMA in real life instead of playing these shitty video games they wouldn't be having these issues. Even better, if they learned how to fight in real life then went to a fighting game convention and beat the shit out of everyone there.
Pretty sure it's just that those characters make you change the way you play the game, if not outright disallowing you to play it at all. Zoners force you to sit there and take chip damage for eons as you edge closer to them and pray to get in eventually, while grapplers force you to play cheap or else face instant death at the hands of three grabs and a guard crush.
A top tier zoner/grappler could be cool. But only when their weaknesses still matter, zoners should still have problems at close range and grapplers should fear for their life at full screen. Sadly top tiers in these archetypes are usually only good because of a lack of weaknesses, not their own strengths.
The problem with grapplers is when you play a non fireball character and your forced to engage all the time, Their weaknesses goes out the window. I feel helpless against Geif as Akira my buttons don't have much reach and I have to play extremely lame without getting rewarded.
Glad someone said this instead of the usual “hehe just bad and can’t adjust”
Ivy’s been sitting at the top of SoulCalibur VI’s tier list because she’s good at every range despite being a zoned and is a better grappler than the dedicated grappler archetype of that game.
@@DayFulYeah bro it's called a matchup, just counterpick or take the L.
@@DragoonCenten You don't get to counterpick in ranked.
@@DayFul Sounds like your problem then. All characters have matchups they suck in, surrender the ranked points or improve to where it doesn’t matter.
I'm a bit weird in that I hate grapplers like most people, but only certain types of grapplers (and also don't generally hate zoners). I hate fighting or using your Zangief/Potemkin/Tager types. But I kind of love NRS and SNK grapplers; even some ArcSys grapplers like Z Broly too. Not exactly sure how to explain it.
Maybe it's how the type of grapplers I like, for playing as them, despite still generally being slower than the rest of the cast, they don't feel purposely restricted (compared to someone like Potemkin who literally only has a grounded backdash). And then for playing against them, you also you don't necessarily just die off getting grabbed twice. Someone like Sun God Kotal in MKX doing 25% off 1 command grab is nothing comapred to standard unoptimal midscreen BnBs being well over 30% damage. Or someone like Daimon grabbing you into super still isn't as much as a full combo from anyone else in the game. Just my personal taste, I guess.
"You don't die off getting grabbed twice"
yeah, with z broly, you die off getting hit with a single light instead.
I say this as a person who mains z broly (and 16/pot/tager/gief/whatever grappler you wanna toss in a game) btw. that character is fucking *degenerate* lmao.
@@WaluTime Oh don’t get me wrong, I'm not saying Z Broly isn't insane and DBFZ is unga af in general, but I don’t get annoyed like I do with more “traditional” grapplers lmao. Z Broly has other insane crap (heck he’s also a zoner), but for some reason, it doesn’t annoy me as much as getting grabbed by even a low tier version of Zangief.
honestly i kind of like that pot doesn't have much mobility. it makes me really feel like a walking wall of pain. emphasis on the walking part though
@@brmsxul Haha I see what you did there! And nothing wrong with that. It obviously appeals to a fair amount of people, just not me personally.
I feel the more toptier a character is the archetypes bleed into each other like a toptier zoner also having toptier rushdown or the other way around with the toptier rushdown also just being really really hard to catch, to not get started on how toptier all rounders are good at everything. So the thing a toptier grappler brings to the game is generally toptier tools on a character that is designed to be able to take more hits and oopsie your healthbar on any of their hits.
Alternatively if you don't believe archetypes eventually change from "zoner rushdown grappler" to "toptier" as the archetype you have a character that is still defined by being slow and clunky but you somehow don't have a reliable answer. This should only happen if the game doesn't let you do what you want and you're forced to play similarly clunky or the toptier grappler has a tool that basically changes the game to compensate for being a slow clunky character. No matter which of these situations it is, I think overall losing scraps to a character with better tools, not being able to do what you want to do cause the game won't let you or "neutral skip" options that compensate so hard a slow clunky character is the toptier all seem really polarizing at the very least.
At least my "fair and honest" toptier zoners/rushdowns/allrounders/whatever still can't just scrap whenever with their low health, can be toptier without the opposing character having to be less option heavy or be toptiers just by having conventional good stuff.
I started out loving rushdown/mix put you in the blender vortex type characters. Then I switched and fell in love with zoners. It's a hard life out here for a zoner unless our character is broken and happens to just have it all. People need to stop crying and learn how to walk in and block, shit!!!
Wouldn't it be great if we all just, you know, appreciated that changing our playstyle is part of the experience and what keeps it fresh?
REAL.
I’ve played shotos for years and for Uni 2 im switching to waldstein. I may even start playing Potemkin im GG as well.
I think grapplers and zoners are important and deserve their time in the sun a bit.
My worry is that characters are getting a bit homogeneous, it feels like 90% of every roster is a rushdown character now, even the “zoners” you can play like rushdown.
Shotos as well are more or less rewarded for playing rushdown. We need these archetypes for variety
I read the title as “Why People Dislike Zoners When Grapplers are Top Tier” and I was so confused lmao.
Zoners are only for the most sophisticated 🤓
"They couldnt guess what I was going for in my 16 way mixup. Im such a good player"🤡
Zoners are so fun to play. The most enjoyable part is controlling space,the opponet gets frustrated, impatient and lose.
Good video! Im cool with most any zoner, I personally get tilted by grapplers more often but depends on the char. Sometimes with grapplers I'm just left feeling like I lost to *gimmicks* more than being outplayed. Like in SFV I've got Zangief knocked down in the corner a tap away, but he presses V shift to CA on wake-up so I take 40% and a HKD for pressing a meaty. Just feels lame to me. But hey, that's their option and I need to consider it! Like Sajam says, change my gameplan.
I'm seriously considering Manon in SF6 so I may join grappler nation
On a very basic level I can understand the frustration because when you haven’t figured out the fundamentals yet, it feels like zoners and grapplers have the tools to essentially not have to play the game the way you do.
Like, if a big part of your time spent playing the game is figuring out how to block attacks, and how to use frame traps/pressure/high-low mixups to open up people blocking, it feels like the grapplers essentially have the tools to bypass that aspect of the game.
Same way if you need to get in, space properly, know footsies etc - to be able to just run away and (in their view) “spam” projectiles can feel like they’re playing a different game than your Karin or whatever.
Now, if zoners/grapplers are “top tier”, a lot of the time what that means is that there’s not really anything straightforward when it comes to countering the gameplan of the zoner/grappler. You have to know the matchup inside out. If you’re playing a mid tier rushdown and your opponent is a top tier grappler, or if you’re playing a mid tier grappler and your opponent is a top tier zoner, you’re fighting for your life.
But that’s a simplistic view of what “the game” is. The developers put in zoners and grapplers to diversify the “ecosystem” of the game. You have to look at the zoning/grappling tools as a puzzle to decipher, not as just an obstacle in your path.
Hmm I always thought they didn't get top place is because devs dont know how to balance them as well as typical archetypes because of their difference? We also see cases like XX Potemkin, Zangeif Sf4 where they actually were some of the best characters in the game only for future versions to nerf them to lower them relatively. Though I wonder if Devs do see people dont like zoners or grapplers so they decide to gut them.
It's probably both. They are hard to balance, because if you don't keep their stuff outside of their specialty on the weak side, they steamroll. If you do keep it down, it makes their specialty harder to execute as well, usually making them underpowered.
And because developers know people generally don't like them, they will usually settle for them being weak as it creates fewer problems.
I dont get why poeple dont like good grapplers, they are atleast interactive. I feel the biggest issue with top tier zoners is this tends to manifest as a completely uninteractive wall of projectiles where you sit full screen and block, no neutral, no big reads, often easy to operate but stupidly hard to circumvent or requires big reads to even begin to approach.
You rarely see a zoner that nuts these days, but yeah, good luck getting a hit in against something like O. Sagat if you don't have a good understanding of SF2. Most likely result is a bunch of loses with perfects.
I remember when MK11 came out and people saw Cetrion being like the third best in some of the early tourneys and everyone HATED it. Same for Glacius in KI.
I must be some kind of sicko, Axl and Pot are my favourite match-ups in Strive as a Sol/Sin player.
This exact arguement is also applicable to TCGs. I play magic and people hate to think in a strategy game, it's wild.
I get both sides, at the end of the day it's just another archetype, but I also get it from the low and mid level players perspectives. It's cause grapplers and zoners really limit your options lol.
this may be the uni player in me speaking, but i dont think zoners being top tier is really that big of an issue. i enjoy the change in pace fighting them, getting in on a zoner after learning the patterns feels so good, and really only feels better the stronger they are. they can have good damage, but grapplers usually have more of a knowledge check game to them by the nature of Game Design.
I think it depends a lot on the type of game. In games with strong movement options you can try to move around their zoning and get in one ago. As opposed to a game where you just have to slowly crouch block your way in.
7 months later, after kakeru won gamers8, this could not be more true. The outrage came like clockwork. Right on the money Sajam.
it's me I'm the zoner I love punching people at full screen and then running away when they get close.
When grapplers and zoners are too strong they change the genre of the game you're playing.
I think a big element is that both zoners and grapplers are defined as much by their weaknesses as their successes so being top tier means they really are nearly unbeatable.
I love playing as a grappler myself. I think another aspect of hate for these archetypes is watching too. Zoners are not fun to watch. If you're a casual and you're watching a zoner chip and push out the other fighter, it's not super fun. Grapplers do make hype moments, but they end matches quick too if they get the opponent in the 50 50. Grapplers are the grand poo-bahs of robbery, and zoners are a close second. If a grappler has even a sliver of life, and has the command grab, they can turn it around IMMEDIATELY, and zoners, if they can get the space, can fireball you into oblivion.
Does it make sense for problematic archtypes to exist as long as *some* characters counter them?
When you're just queing online for a match, you don't get to pick if you want to counter your opponent's character.
No, you have to get good instead
I'd much rather lose to a grappler/zoner than lose to a small character. Like why do all my air moves miss on you? What do you mean my mids don't hit you when you're crouching what is that BS?
If you hate grapplers, have you tried not getting grabbed?
You the force a grappler to change thier game plan if you play well, Zoners gameplay is never forced to changed. They always have round start advantage and just an advantage in general. Grapplers have to actually work for their advantage.
People don't like having to play differently but also who in the world actually enjoys playing against Zoners.
People hate these archetypes bc their form of fun is an unsafe block string that works on 99.9 percent of characters but not the big dude or the zoner
Geif with drive rush is going to haunt people’s dreams
As a zoner play i hate pure rushdown player. All they do is hold foward and press buttons and be plus, no brain power needed. Or i tell them Oh its wrong that zoners make you play and think diffrently but its ok for a top tier rushdown character lock you up the whole game in the corner. Like people get mad when i say that about rushdown but its ok to say thar about zoners are too easy and brainded. They require no skill and spam. Fight like a man and play the game normally. Im tired of this uneeded hate we get.
It's a bias that most scrubs have. Don't worry, despite me being total scrub, I hate rushdown instead since they are too common and boring.
Now happy chaos stand just outside my range shooting me, instead of full screen away.
Yay.
So much better.
I think the big thing is ending reward. People don't like having to change their style to get in on zones or keep away from grapplers. But if they do so, they're rewarded with winning, so people ultimately suck it up. When those two archetypes are too strong, people have to change their playstyle, which they don't like to do in the first place, and then they still get their ass beat. The reward for doing something you don't want to do, winning, is taken away, taking away any incentive to fight those characters. Players don't get to do what they like doing, and even changing how they play doesn't reward them in any way. That's never fun.
People being upset at natural archetypes existing happens constantly in card games as well. In MtG it's a meme that newer players hate control and combo type decks. I think in each case the blame sort of lies in fighting games presenting rushdown as the norm that characters can deviate FROM, and card games presenting aggro as the norm that decks can deviate FROM.
Interesting. I usually frame the way Virtua Fighter is immune to the grappler hate as being largely because VF is kinda allergic to simple archetypes. But the fact that every character is all about different kinds of mix-ups means that you've bought into accepting that gameplan from step 1.
The one character who actually forces you to change your gameplan is Taka, because his super heavy weight means he can't be juggled as easily and a lot of key combos don't work on him. Doesn't matter that there are a lot more weight tiers that affect combos, Taka is by far the most noticeable. And so in beginner/intermediate play Taka is regarded as a very frustrating character, and a good noob killer for beginners just looking to climb ranks. But after a certain point everyone just agrees that high level VF is nothing but knowledge checks anyways, and Taka's differences really aren't much worse than learning any other matchup
What i'm understanding is that it's basically because hardly ever the midrange shoto type character is strong because they leak into another archetype, they just kill you but when the zoner or grappler character is strong it's because they stop having their usual weaknesses and sort of do everything.
I personally don't mind who the top tier of the game is as long as they're not the top tier because they represent only one super strong option that beats everything. Having 8 lukes in capcom cup might be a little stale but at least he's just a good all rounder and not mindless.
"If you give a grappler everything and get rid of all of their weaknesses it's how you get top tier grapplers"
funny that the best example wasn't mentioned - DBFZ Broly, the best grappler in the game that also had the best zoning, long range but still quick normals, incredible gap closing potential, absurd damage with meter and also an ability to completely blank the one archetype meant to specifically counter slow close range characters
His normals aren't fast, wtf m8
I like Zoners and Grapplers. Mayuri Kurotsuchi from Bleach The Blade of Fate is one of my favorite Fighting Game Characters.
I always immediately mainline grapplers and I’ve been thinking about why people think I’m a scumbag and actually I think part of it is the same reason I like grapplers.
I’m lazy/intermediate at best and don’t have to do as much work to get big damage as I would with lengthy comboes on other characters. in my eye, grapplers are just a little more straightforward in the moment to moment.
Xrd rev 2 Potemkin is peak though, so much more variety
To me, fighting games are about overcoming your own self so you can overcome the opponent. If you can't control your emotions, you deserve to lose. This is why annoying characters are important.
Zoning with no interesting universal mechanics for it is my bane, I wanna do COOL interactions with the wall of projectiles and area denial not shuffle slowly and block. I fucking love the reflect properties on a well timed shield in Smash Melee, you can take someone's offence starting laser or pestering missile and send it back to them with any character if you got that DAWG in ya.
People hate losing to grapplers because being cornered and physically dominated by a larger, stronger opponent reminds them of being bullied in high school.
Uh, bro, that's probably a you thing
As a casual observer, it really seems like Sim was irrelevant for 95% of the game's lifespan, then one day someone won a tournament and the hate train had already departed the station with every seat full. Was there like a distinct "We're buffing the hell out of this guy" patch or did someone just figure him out?
He was getting buffed throughout all of SFV basically, but the biggest one was V-shift getting implemented. Now he had another universal defensive mechanic on top of all his good stuff.
Everyone other top tier was flashy OP with massive explosive damage. Sim just creeped in the background
I'd say I'm ok with most top tier grapplers and zoners, even if they are frustrating. I have 2 exceptions are Peacock from Skullgirls, who is the most frustrating zoner of all time, and I've been in the middle of Soul Fist spam. I haven't been in the injustice sauce, so maybe there was something worse there. The other is less criminal, but it was Android 16 from dragonball, and that was because I had to play him because he fit my team too perfectly over any other assist or character at the time, and I found him mad boring, despite making my other 2 characters way more fun.
I saw you discuss Martian manhunter in a different video, and he gave off similar vibes to why I hated Peacock. Zoner that also had crazy mixups, full screen teleports that let you stay out if your opponent got close and absurd damage for your archetype.
Ibuki vs Hugo in third strike is super fun. ibuki either getting rag dolled or Ibuki running circles and stunning Hugo into stupidity. It’s my favorite rush down vs grappler match
As long as zoners or grapplers are execution heavy, i feel theyre justified
Yup. Casuals like to mash buttons. Zoners and grapplers. However, i dont think putting zoners and grapplers in the same category paints an accurate picture
Zoners are hated drastically more than grapplers. Grapplers are hated more by intermediate level players and above than casuals and casuals always make up the largest portion of any game. Most grapplers actually take some effort to play effectively but "spamming" fireballs is easy to do and hard for beginners to get around
I have a casual mindset when it comes to comp fighting games but from I’ve learned people (including myself) hate zoners and grapplers because once they go, they do not stop
*reads title*
I think its because players don't want to feel like they don't have options. Some grapplers don't give you space and some zoners are just out of reach. I say this as an average fighting game player.
Zoners are fine outside of NRS games.
Grapplers are usually annoying, depending on the type. Like you have the giefs that just have to walk at you, but one good hit and it could be curtains depending on their skill level. Those aren't bad, but once you get into the tager/pot tier where they have genuine options, it's more annoying than fun a lot of the times. Just imo. Hell even haggar in mvc3 has so many options despite being so bad on paper, but he gets that touch, you got crossups for days, lariat into punch super, or level 3, and just loads of resets and crazy damage too. In general I prefer them closer to brawlers that may happen to have a command grab. The whole guessing on wake up if the dude is gonna throw me is not enjoyable.
Basically every character in any fighting game can throw you on wakeup :)
@@HeirofDacia Yeah but outside of marvel 3 (only game I can think of where this matters), normal grabs are usually slower than the command grabs. Let alone the range advantage in most cases.
@@chimpmasterflex Old GG grabs are 1-frame.
@@HeirofDacia Yeah there's loads of games with various rules and differences. My statement stands though.
People don't enjoy hugs.
Usually thinking you have the best offence in the entire game just to leave a 5-frame gap and getting command grabbed for 30% of your life probably doesn't feel very good, I wouldn't know I'm the grappler that loves doing that shit.
On the zoner side, it feels hopeless like you just aren't allowed to do anything, a top-tier zoner makes you doubt any move you're making and frustrates you to no end.
One makes you overthink trying to go in and press buttons and punishes you if you are not patient.
the other one makes you regret not pressing buttons and punishes you for being scared.
A good grappler or zoner player forces you to play differently.
A good grappler or zoner character makes you feel like there's no counterplay.
That's why both archetypes can't be top tier, it would kill the enjoyment for a lot of players.
Honestly, I do like that zoners and grapplers are mid or low-tier, it makes it feel more rewarding when you actually catch a W. I play grappler in most games I play, with the occasional zoner or bulshit character here and there (Pot, Axl, Faust, Testament, Tager, Susano, Slayer, Grappler and Lost Warrior) and I agree, those characters shouldn't be top tier, they would make the game miserable for everyone else.
Thanks for reading this wall of text, have a nice day!
I think a big deal about grapplers is the mental damage they inflict when you lose to them.
When you get perfected by Nago because he killed you in 2 interactions you're just like "well thats just how it is"
When you die to Pot because you guessed wrong and he busters you 3 times in a row you just feel like the biggest fucking idiot in the world.
People just don't want to think. They want to do their gameplan and have the opponent just buckle. Only times characters shouldn't be Top tier, is when they're blatantly OP like Like or OG Abigail, Etc.
It's not just that. If a matchup means you don't get to do what the character was built to do, that can get dull really fast. One example of that kind of thing is eg. Fuerte. If I boot up Street Fighter, I want to play Street Fighter. I booted the game because that's the experience I'd like to have. Then what do I get? "antiair spastic goofball trying to do silly things".
Yeah, I'll pass, thanks.
I felt like abigail got hammered in the last two patches. But man I’m glad I didn’t get into fighting games while that monster was so strong.
I think there's a third archetype that fits into the same sort of dynamic as grapplers and zoners, and that's pixie characters. Ultra-mobile characters tend to force you to play significantly differently in the same way and tend to be incredibly toxic when top-tier, usually due to having overtuned win conditions or just having tools that warp neutral so heavily that typical neutral is out of the question.
No he mentioned them.
Thats not a polarizing character thats just a top tier well rounded character or a too tier rushdown character, sometimes both. Theyre always top tier and honestly theyre fine because they arent polarizing and can still be fought in different ways. Youre thinking of cammy and karin and i know youre thinking of cammy and karin cause theres nothing “pixie” about rashid, akuma, devil jin, dragonuv, yun, ken, steve, or characters from other fighters i dont play. When a character like geif, sim, menat or say… deadshot are top tier, they SUPER invalidate atleast 1/3 of the match and beat the rest of the cast. I dont mean invalidate like a 6-4 match up, it could be as bad as 1/3 the cast gets 8-2’d and theres no hard counters, just 5-5 match ups with ONLY the characters that are supposed to beat their archetype. Thats why polarizing characters should NEVER be top tier or even high tier really. Trust me you rather have those low health high mobility all arounders be the best in the game compared to others.
Case in point: PET SHOP
I don't understand the hate towards grapplers and zoners. Being able to adjust to different situations is part of being, y'know, a good player?
Finally, someone with some brains
Looking at you, Broly!
The real issue is that getting command grabbed makes me feel dumb.
that's the point
grapplers force the opponent to play smart
@@yurifairy2969 No they don't. Competent players force you to play smart. I don't actually have to use my brain more against Potemkin than I do against Sol.
I'm saying that getting hit normally makes me think I need to improve while getting command grabbed makes me wonder how I passed 3rd grade. It's purely emotional.
I think it's simpler than that. What set off the handshake rivalry? Nemo complaining about Zangief being "spin to win".
Grapplers and zoners by design do not have elaborate combos. Grapplers throw, which ends a combo; zoners are at range where less combos are present. Other players are jealous that they have to memorize timings to press buttons. Grapplers and zoners have to memorize spacing, and the skill doesn't show as much.
My main complaint of zoners is that its never a combo.. its stray hits. Ive used a zoner and adopted the style a little but... all the strays hits dont mean anything with one big girthy hit by someone with more sustainable/consistent combos cause of positioning (rushdown up in my business).
Arc sys when they give a character a gun and they turn out to be a zoner 🤯
Abigail was big and had a grab, but I don't think that means he was a grappler. If Fei Long was big, would he be a grappler? Yun? Abigail was a striker. His primary threat was his big normals, not his command grab.
Sajam i just hate having to guess up or downback when a grappler is pressuring on block
And then there was the ultimate monster El fuerte the zoning grappler. I want him in SF6 so badly
NRS zoner? Yes, I can see the complaint.
But in almost any other game, the zoners are far more balanced.
But you also have different types of zoners. A 'Sim zoning is quite different than a Guile zoning.
Morrigan