How to get the Best Sound from a Full-Range Driver - Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ก.ค. 2024
- Are you interested in speaker building? If so a full range driver is typically a great place to start. And although, you can just stick it in a proper sized enclosure, if you want to get the best sound out of it, then you will want to watch this video.
PART 1: • How to get the Best So...
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Thank you for this video, very useful. I really appreciate it .
Thanks so much, this and the other part of the video explain my long wait mystery of the functions of the components in the crossover. Thanks thanks thanks!!!
Awesome! I always wondered about these. This helped a lot!
Very useful tips and great demo. For Parts 1 and 2
Thank you for the link finally I've been downloading the wrong xsim, completely different software.
Great info. In this case however since the peak is almost beyond the audible range you might be able to get by with a simple lowpass (assuming your listening testing confirms that the peak is an actual problem).
This video shows the "piggy back" design of my coaxial drivers made from FR drivers: th-cam.com/video/qOu-tzzncS4/w-d-xo.html
If you use the built in function in XSim you can specify the target frequency and Q value and it’ll calc the values. But this video stills helps with the basic understanding.Danny Richie at GR-Research has a good video on this too which further helps the full understanding
Thanks you . Can you make a video just for impedance.
And for transmission line speaker box 🌹❤️
Had to look up what attenuates means. You used it so much I figured it was important. Lol.
Great video series. How about a Part 3 with a quick enclosure example would round it out :) I am glad I waited on building a FR speaker before seeing your videos. Thanks!
K Z I could do that for you guys
Great video, thanks. I understand more now how does filters exactly work. Keep it coming! Anyway, i am going to build a sub and am waiting for the wood package, precut and ready to put together.
My next plan is to build two small towers, like 20cm wide and about 1 to 1.20 mtr high. Thing is, i want to grab the "dynaudio Emit 30" sound. Maybe you have listened to them already. They have a 2.5 way design, i think. Two mid/woofers and a softdome tweeter. The sound is full body, warm and punchy, great detail in the high. Just the way i like it. So in order to get that soudstage, what kind of drivers i am looking for ? Maybe a though question, while i have no clue what i must look for. All i know is i need a sparkling tweeter, not harsch but whit great detail and some 5~6.5 inch midwoofers which can go up to say 3~4Khz smoothly. I was thinkink of a TL tapered line for them.
I like the new intro!
Sarah Mia thank you! I'm glad you like it!
Hi how are you. Your video was good. I live in England I am wanting to build my first pair of speakers with a full range driver. I have been looking at the Dayton audio full range drivers. Could you send me some information on what to buy and the instructions on how to make it. I have some experience with upgrading a hifi valve amp by changing capacitors and some of the cables which was more difficult than building a speaker with one driver because I had replaced more parts than what I would have to use to build a set of speakers similar to what you were talking about. What computer program were you using.
Very informative video. Unfortunately it addresses the frequency anomaly only, but does not take into account the phase shift caused by the notch filter. It is likely that the driver will sound better without the notch filter, as the improvement in frequency response will not make up for the phase shift issues that are introduced.
I am using the RS100-8 on a pair of mini towers I just built. I didn’t know about the baffle step & the high filter until just watching your videos on the subject. As of now, the drivers are in the cabinets and I’m playing them like that. Can I do the modifications as noted On this video ....will they work on my RS100-8 .?
This is good information and making me rethink a recent project.
Sorry mate canceled my previous comment, bc yep with a 16KHz peak at +6db you can have some audible effect down to 12KHz-14KHz where a lot a people will notice something.
So u are right, better take care of that from start. Sorry again.
No worries. It's all good. It's important we all look out for each other.
Do we need baffle step compensation for a tower speaker for the tweeter because you mentioned that when the driver is in a box it looses up to 6db and the wave lengths are shorter above 1khz so should the levels from 1000Hz bellow be +6db above the rest or this is an issue only for single driver box
Not sure I buy that the 17k peak is a huge issue. Overall room response is well down from beaming - listen slightly off axis. But its clear - go active and see how it sounds, so you can play before committing to passive components. And then put them in an external crossover.
not sure if anyone caught the but the first video u used the 4 ohm version an 8 ohm for the second? or does the impedance not matter for parts on these drivers?
Very interesting video. However it would be interesting to know the ''width'' of the notch filter (I think it's called the Q factor) and how to adjust it depending on how sharp the unwanted peak is.
yeah. his videos are very specific to a given project. this was a great for this driver but doesnt really how how to apply this to other drivers other then just trial and error. like at 4:10 im proud of you toids you are really good and all but that is why im here it to see what these components do, not see what values fit this project.
Have you used a notch filter in a dayton ps95?
I would like to tell me what is the best filters for 25w 6omh fullrange speaker. I combine it with 3omh car tweeters.
Great intro! If i want to apply a baffle step correction circuit and a notch filter can i just wire them after each other?
Thank You! Yes you can. Just wire them like the graph shows. and you will be alright :)
Hi. i am a newbie, how is Dayton speakers sound quality level compared to Scan speak?
Is a 16k peak a problem? Will it sound annoy you or is it just some extra air in some songs?
What software do you use?
Nice info there thanks! And I like that you have those Dayton Audio mk402 bookshelf speakers beside the laptop. How do those sound for PC use?
Justin S. They are great for PC use. In fact it's where I prefer them.
Going to have to get a set of those mk402s and the Dayton 2.1 amp along with a homemade subwoofer for a friend of mine that's been using the speakers in their PC monitor for music. I wouldn't torture my worst enemy like that!
Excellent video - what about the resistors ? They have to be power-resistors , but how many watts ?? Maybe a topic for a video
I was wondering the same thing, but there is a volt and amp graph in Xsim per component.
i have mark audio the FR is not very great but mids are nice and not very detail , but lovlly with jazz n vocals , how can i improve it
What if i take full range driver and cross at something like 3-4khz and add tweeter, would it be better that way or there would be no benefit? One thing i always notice on full ramge drivers is that highs aren't that sharp.
That is a good question. You can do that and have some really good benefits from it. Especially getting the type of sound you want from it. However it all depends. If you look at some "full-range" drivers frequency response you will see that they really aren't any good after 10-12k, which might also be the reason you think the highs aren't that sharp. It is a little misleading calling them full-range in my opinion, but it is done quite often.
I like your video. Check this out. I'm trying to build a a speaker with the brand new Tang Band W8-2314 8" Coaxial Full-Range Woofer. I'll be using 2 drivers per box in series. What would you do in that case?
How can I calculated the notch filter values?
I would like to see a response to the question asked by Mr Pablo Moreno as well, although I would ask, “why not just leave it alone,” for the same reason given here by him. Well Rounded Sound pretty much answered it I suppose, in the case of this specific driver, but it makes me wonder if perhaps this is just a crappy-sounding driver? I never thought much of Dayton.
I have a couple pairs of vintage single-driver “full-range” speaker systems that I’ve been listening to on and off over these many years. They utilize the Pioneer A11EC80-02F 4.5” driver, which has served reasonably well, for what it is. I’ve been very tempted to replace them with Fostex FF125WK or FE126En drivers, but I like to run them without additional circuitry, which ability I always felt was one of the features of full-range systems.
I’ve spent many years listening to all kinds of speakers, but not much looking at charts. I guess my question is, regardless of how it looks on paper, how much difference does your notch filter actually make in terms of the *sound*? And, if I were to grab a couple of the Fostex drivers I mentioned, if you’re familiar with these, how much difference could I expect to see by tweaking their response curve as you’ve done here (assuming it shows the need) vs leaving them free and unfettered, as god intended? :) I’m thinking that by selecting a better driver to begin with, you would be better off than trying to fix a less musical driver.
Your thoughts?
It's a great question. In which, there really is no perfect answer. I'm showing theoretically if you're going for a flat response how to achieve that with a full-range driver. But as you have pointed out, many full-range drivers sound great without flattening out the response. In fact, many people prefer responses that are not flat. This, will definitely make a difference in sound, but it may not be enough for some people to justify. Especially when you add in the cost and complexity of the crossover. Many people choose to run then without a filter and are very happy with it. In fact, I'm using this save driver in an upcoming build and don't use any filters on it. So I don't consider myself fixing it. Just enhancing the response you want from the driver. Of course, in the end, that is all personal preference.
3:40 R2 is 51 ohms is it?
In part one of the two parts you used a four ohm, but in part two you used an eight ohm. Would there be a difference in crossovers for the different resistance? I have used this speaker in a Bluetooth box and was glad to see this video but was wondering about the discrepancy. Great videos by the way.
I just used the 8 ohm to show it works with either if them. The filters will be different and are different. But it's fairly easy to sim after getting used to it.
Someone please tell me why xsim wont let me upload the frd files i got from parts express? It only allows one file but there are 4, what the hell is going wrong? Its driving me crazy!
So what happens to all your adjustments once the driver is installed in the speaker enclosure? Won't that significantly affect the frequency response?
Ideally you would take these measurements in the box. I'm just showing you what you would do once you have the measurements. The great thing with using something like this is everyone has access to these files. That way they can work with them and see what they come up with.
Anyone have cabinet plans for a duel full range speaker
Is there a full range driver and enclosure where no crossover is needed?
What if i tuned it withthe eq in my player
Thanks again for another super informative video. You are a fantastic re-source for the DIY Audio community. I have a full range driver I want to fix along the lines of your video. I used FPGraph Tracer to get some measurements and every time I load the FRD file into Xsim it just say "load file error". I have tried re-tracing several times, also using slightly adjusted figures for x and y and none of the files work -same load error. The ZMA file extracted from the same graph loads fine and the FRD of two other speakers using the program also load fine. I looked at the txt version of the files and can see no issue, they look exactly the same. The same file loads into Vituixcad no problems but does not manipulate the frequency response no matter what components I add to the driver - frustrating. Have you come across this issue or know of any reasons why this might happen? Any help you have would be much appreciated.
Check to see if you added any words in front of your frd. You can open it up with notepad, and if there's anything above the numbers, it will not load correctly. Sometimes those programs will say something like graph by FP graph tracer or something along those lines. I would try that first if that doesn't work, let me know.
And thank you for the compliment, I appreciate hearing that.
@@Toid So I have had a look and there doesn't seem to be any issues in that department. No letters or anything. It looks exactly the same as the FRD files that do work. Also I tried SPl trace or your suggested equivalent and neither of the ZMA or FRD files now load for the tweeter I am trying to use on another project. Seems odd. Anyway if you think something might fix this let me know. Otherwise I am doing it old school. Don't have a alot of choice I guess.
@@eatdrinkwineguy you can email me the frd file. I'll take a look at it
@@Toid Oh that's legendary. Thanks.
Dang dude... I have a lot to learn. I'm good at the building, but not the designing lol! This was super helpful though
Or we can just collab sometime ;)
@@Toid you might be on to something there...
Ok, now how do you address the drop at 2k?
Also I went to your site but couldn’t find contact info for you there. So, I’ve got a pair of Silver Flute 6.5” 4 ohm drivers I need to something with. I’ve also got some old Peerless dome mids and dome tweeters from a pair of speakers I built long ago. They used peerless kg120 woofers but after 20 some years in the AZ sun they disintegrated. I want to use them in a three or four way design. The mids are going for $275 ea used but the tweeters are not the greatest. So I might just use the mids and a newer pair of tweeters with them. So, I need help designing and have cabs built for these two projects.
That's not really an issue. Keep in mind or zoomed in very far. That's only about a 1db drop, which is perfectly acceptable. And at 2Khz, is even preferably to some.
But wait, are you look at the frequency response of the drivers alone or a drivers in the actual box with the crossovers?
The concept is the same either way you look at it. In this theoretical response, we are looking at a full range driver. We are making the crossover network for it, which includes a BSC and a notch filter. If you have more peaks caused by diffraction or if you need to increase you BSC, you will be able to use these same principles to get the response you are desiring.
Have you ever tried building a multiple full range driver speaker, I was thinking a couple of small drivers with a big one could sound decent. Maybe plugging the small ones in parrallel and then plugging the big one in series with that, so that each small one sees about half the power of the big one, assuming they all have the same impedance.
I haven't tried that
You could try something with a bunch - say, eight or so - of small 3-4” drivers facing the rear as reflective ambient sound, and one facing forward, for that “concert hall” feeling. You might need some eq on it as well. :)
@@keithgardner5818 anbd call it the bose 901 L.OL.
Would adding a Zobel to flatten the impedance curve be a good idea?
Not in this case. You wouldn't really use a zobo on a full range driver unless you were using that full range driver as a mid-range or a woofer. Just keep mind impedance is going to go up and down with frequency. It's not going to be flat. That's normal for a loudspeaker.
Noob question: Can you buy components at the specific values set on the components (resistors, inductors and capacitors)?
Yes you can
I no like to get kind at Parts Express
Hope you make a video on impedance now!
What do you mean? What about impedance do you want to learn?
@@Toid If I will use the 4ohm version for this speaker the crossover will be the same?
Hi!. Whats your opinion on the xls encore? Greetings!
I've never heard them, so I really couldn't say how they perform. My one concern is that there appears to be a lot of upsell for different components that shouldn't make an audible difference. The only one that I can see that would make a difference is the bypass cap. But if the speaker needs it, I'm not sure why it's an option. So that would be the concern I would have. But they are good drivers, so I'm sure if the crossovers and box are designed well, they would sound good.
@@Toid thanks for the reply. Appriciate it. You say if the crossover is designed right...but for what I understood; Its rightly designed because they are top notch components...(?)nor isnt that the case? For how much could one build a kit by its own and have the same results you think?
I have 4 of these and I was going to buy the XO parts to build thru your kiosk so you get $credit$ but there’s only a link to the drivers...?
Only change is I build 1/4 wave transmissionline enclosures out of Pvc/ABS sched40.
I appreciate that. I'll post the links tomorrow when I get up for the morning.
How I got really tight bass on a 3-way speaker woofer. I have a 100 mf cap and a 1 ohm resistor in parl, and that is in series with my main inductors, which is a 9 mh inductor in parl with a (3 mh inductor that is in series with a 2 ohm resistor). The 6.5" woofer is also in a double chamber bass reflex enclosure. The best bass I have ever made in a speaker.
IMO just use a 31 band DSP/EQ for $100-200 and not have to mess with any of this. Simply cut the frequencies that are too loud and you get a silky smooth response.
can you do all that with minidsp?
Definitely
How bout dose bookshelf speakers dough?
Parts Express The MK402s are awesome!
yo' PE do something for us in Europe so we would be able to buy your products at the same prices from USA. A warehouse or something.
Have you been to www.soundimports.eu/en/ ?
If Dayton Audio is what you are looking for then check out where you can buy in Europe! www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/where-to-buy/
If Dayton Audio is what you are looking for then check out where you can buy in Europe! www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/where-to-buy/
Series Notch Filters are designed to dampen driver resonance at its resonance frequency (fs).
Parallel Notch (Trap) Filters are designed to remove broad peaks in the frequency response of a driver. These filters are more complicated than the Series Notch Filter, because the components are in series with the driver. The resistance of the inductor and the type (mylar, electrolytic, polypropylene) of capacitor will affect the performance of this circuit.
Impedance Equalization Circuits, also know as "Zobel" circuits, are used to counteract the rising impedance of a voice coil caused by inductive reactance. This problem mainly occurs in sub woofers because of their large coils. A Impedance Equalization circuit is usually placed after the crossover.
If I will use the 4ohm version for this speaker the crossover will be the same?
+123toid
+123Toid
Why you want to correct or attenuate the peak at 17k, most humans don't hear such high frequencies anyway, a better approach would be a 12dB per octave roll off from 12k down, I'm just saying..
The full range of human hearing is considered 20hz to 20Khz. You are right that there are people who cannot hear in this range, that especially includes many men over the age of 50. However, if you are trying to attain the flattest/purest response, assuming the full-range of hearing, you would take care of that area. But if you are one of the people who have a hard time hearing that high, then you are absolutely right to just leave it alone.
but then you can fix the impedance with a zobel
Interesting, but when do you make real measurements instead of simulations?
Would you just use dsp;
You can do that. But a DSP costs around $150 and you have to keep it with the speakers. The passive crossover depending on quality could be less than $20 for both and they stay with the speaker forever.
Toid's DIY Audio getting the cost out of the equation i find dsp better sonically what's your opinion ;
A properly designed passive crossover can sound just as good as a properly implemented DSP. But a DSP definitely has it's advantages, including changing the sound whenever you want. I personally prefer passive crossovers, but I completely understand why more and more people are going to DSP.
Rofl Copter that's a great point! They work on the sure wondom amplifiers. I haven't used them myself. Have you? I have wanted to try them though
I was thinking 17k, I sure can not here that, if it was 11k, OK I can hear that a little. :-(
Can you even hear 17K ?
I don't know why anyone worriers about a peak past 14khz. So, we're going to introduce phase shift for the sake of neener-nanner flat responses. With my hearing I'd never notice a peak at 17khz
Your use of passive filters totally defeats the benefits of using a full range driver. A frequency response graph only tells you about the loudness at each frequency, a frequency response graph tells you nothing about what the speaker sounds like when playing those frequencies. A frequency response graph tells you about the quantity of sound, NOT the quality of sound. Everything you do with your passive filter components makes the speaker sound worse.
That makes absolutely no sense. You're going to have to research Quite a bit. I'd like to start by telling you how wrong it is, but there's just too much there. These are very good concepts for people to use. but if you're unaware, you should at least start with baffle step compensation. Read up on it and do some research.
@@Toid Everything I said is factual. There is no musical information at 17khz so leave it alone. Baffle step only affects tweeters which are on a baffle more than 10 inches wide.
@@dreamdictionyour just proving you don't know what you're talking about. You need to research this. I'm saying this to help you out. The first time you said 7 khz come on now you're saying 17khz. And baffle step doesn't affect tweeters, it affects mid-range and woofers. The smaller the baffle the sooner it occurs. without going into too much detail, has to do with the wavelength of the frequency wrapping around the side of the box. Next time you should let people help you out when you don't know what your talking about
@@Toid You are talking about something you don't understand because you have not done your own tests. You think you know what you are talking about but you don't.
Baffle diffraction ONLY affects frequencies ABOVE those frequencies which have a wavelength shorter than the distance between center of the speaker and the edge of the baffle, do your own calculations and you will see why Baffle Diffraction ONLY affects tweeters. As for bass, 80hz has a wave length of 14 feet so for baffle diffraction to affect 80hz the baffle would need to be 28 feet wide.
Putting a speaker in a box INCREASES the bass because the waves from the rear of the cone which are 180 degrees out of phase are trapped by the box so they cannot wrap around and cancel out the waves from the front of the speaker cone. This would be obvious to you if you have ever played music through a speaker in a box and then play the same music through a speak which was out of the box.
I said, there is no point suppressing speaker output at 17khz (SEVENTEEN) because there is no musical information at 17khz.
I said, most classical recordings are recorded live in a auditorium. Whenever such recordings are made, microphone placement is decided by an engineer walking around with a spectrum analyser. It is a FACT that when listening to an orchestra from the front row of an auditorium, there is no sound above 7khz (SEVEN). To detect higher frequency harmonic information you need to be literally inches from the musical instrument.
You are talking about something you don't understand because you have not done your own tests. Go and do your own tests before you reply.
@@dreamdiction and you almost have baffle step compensation figured out. Wavelength plays an important role in this. I love when you say do you're own tests, when you're talking to a speaker designer who obviously has more experience than whoever you are. But since you seem to be allergic to don't research and don't want to watch the video I linked which actually show the tests, I'll leave you to live in your item ignorance. At first, I was trying to help you, now I'd rather just let you believe whatever it is you want to. Have a wonderful night.
Just in case you know how to read, I'll leave this here: www.salksound.com/wp/?p=42