Why a Body in a Resurrection? | Episode 1407 | Closer To Truth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- Judaism, Christianity, and Islam teach the ‘resurrection of the body’, the person brought back to life after death. But isn’t a ‘body’ out of place in a nonphysical afterlife? Isn’t a body a burden throughout eternity? Moreover, how to resurrect a body? Featuring interviews with Eleonore Stump, Dean W. Zimmerman, Peter van Inwagen, and Eric Steinhart.
Season 14, Episode 7 - #CloserToTruth
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Closer To Truth host Robert Lawrence Kuhn takes viewers on an intriguing global journey into cutting-edge labs, magnificent libraries, hidden gardens, and revered sanctuaries in order to discover state-of-the-art ideas and make them real and relevant.
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Closer to Truth presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
#Religion #Resurrection
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I am enjoying these discussions!
I find it fascinating to read everyone’s opinions here. In an area that simply cannot be known, we are all speculating. Belief that gives comfort to one may not work for another. As I search for peace, I wish you all peace.
Hey Jonny... I like your perspective. Peace to you too
Depends of course if the creator has revealed his plans in advance.
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Discover "faith in God" through the scientific methodology in only three stages: faith in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery faith is in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery. Faith in God’s hypothesis is justified.
@@adeelio83 Discover "faith in God" through the scientific methodology in only three stages: faith in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery faith is in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery. Faith in God’s hypothesis is justified.
@@mustafaelbahi7979 Sorry to say but I can't understand what you are trying to say.
I enjoy this program but it’s difficult for me to understand how some well educated people believe these ancient myths as veridical truth.
*SOME*? Most well educated people believe in God. If well educated here means has attended university at the bachelor, master and PhD level, the statistics are clear; the majority of those who are educated are believers.
I’m not referring to believing in god as both theists and atheists cannot prove their viewpoint. I’m referring to people who believe what is written in ancient scrolls.
@@deanwilson8955 You've just demonstated the reason. The notion that disbelievers in a Russel teapot have as much of a burden of proof as the believers is already absurd, but apparently you're fine with it. But when _some_ absurdities are normalized, people consider even greater absurdities, like taking the ancient myths seriously. There's no limit to this insanity.
@@AlexanderShamov
It's just the good ol' human condition at work my friend.
@@deanwilson8955 What "ancient scrolls" are you referring to? I have some interest in scrolls but I can't seem to grasp the language of Greek. Maybe it's my chemo-brain. Don't forget that back then ( 2,000 years ago and more) most cultures were oral and very few people could read or write. So people who were educated would read from the scrolls before an audience.
Extremely interesting video. I love Eleonore Stumps analogies and the way she thinks. I also loved that Robert showed the completely polar opinon of Eric Steinhart (and Roberts obvious dislike of Eric's thinking).
Robert, It's nice to find someone like yourself, that is searching for the same answers as I am. I'm in my 50's now, but I came to the realization at a very young age that the survival of my consciousness after the body dies, is the most important principal to me. Right now, there is no scientific evidence to prove this and all the religious explanations are just stories to give people false hope. Are there any scientists that you can talk to or interview that are doing any experiments to prove that consciousness survives the death of the body?
Sam Parnia,Bruce Greyson
@@agusti211 I've watched many videos on Sam Parnia and Bruce Greyson and the just talk about their Near Death experiments. I guess I'm looking for experiments that are more like the kind they did in the movie Flatliners.
The happiness that comes from a body devoid of all imperfections is so immense that this question would never occur to the brain of an immortal!
Your body isn't just you...you are your consciousness which actually defines who you are . Your consciousness is everything about you including your memories and life experiences.
You will not be annoyed, you as the entire universe will delight in your expirence, and ours because of your fractal. You are a unique facet on the crystal that is consiousness.
Because Emotions are Powerful! And maybe we need a physical body to have powerful physical emotions.
We don’t know yet how to exist without the body . That’s one of the abilities of this quantum machine . We must learn so much we are lost in the universe 🙏🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻
''God is sitting around in heaven'' on his Lazyboy,
amazing all the afterlife info this women has.
frank whelan
... she’s proposing a thought experiment.
Discover "faith in God" through the scientific methodology in only three stages: faith in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery faith is in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery. Faith in God’s hypothesis is justified.
@@mustafaelbahi7979 lol, watch me draw a circle
According to neuroscience, the human brain is subject to the principle of equivalence, and the "concept of value" that differs from one person to another and not because of the objectivity of the question, why did the mouse not aware of you judge you for reality? The word "faith" is linked in the subconscious to the word "absurd." This was an attempt by the unconscious to steal the equivalent.
@@mustafaelbahi7979 This is exactly how intelligent people enshroud their superstitions in a capsule of scientific and philosophical nonsense to avoid cognitive dissonance.
my sincere thanks. one of the best channels available..
When trying to intellectualize the details of existence outside of spacetime we fall into the trap of materialism. Since we are within the limited sphere of three dimensions within time, it is impossible to conceptualize another reality. Consider the scripture..."No eye has seen, No ear has heard, neither has it entered the mind, the things God has prepared for them that love him."
sounds like something you make up to say to bad children to get them to behave
@@gwills9337 What sounds like "something you make up...?"
The Father has made our Way 'home' plain enough in Christ Jesus. The Gospel and the fellowship of His Spirit is sufficient for this faith pilgrimage.
@@thomasdykstra100 I believe yet I still struggle with questions and doubt. Is this contradictory?
@@johnbrzykcy3076 : "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[d] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.:--Romans 8
Take this to heart, Brother John::
"Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice[b] cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So death is at work in us, but life in you.
"Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, 'I believed, and so I spoke,' we also believe, and so we also speak, knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence. For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
"So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."--2 Corinthians 4
I love idea about my home and me being happy there, but it's because life is temporary and ever changing phenomena, if we talk about eternity i definitely want to make many radical changes and improvements before that can happen. I want a perfect body, a perfect home in a perfect place, with perfect neighbors or no need to bother resurrecting me.
I realise just how much the world misses without continuing revelation from God. I am grateful that I know what has been revealed in the latter day concerning these things. I bear witness that truth has been restored on these matters, yea even more and that our Father has not left us to fend for ourselves or depend on the knowledge of men regarding truth. Saith the Saviour to mankind/ the seeking soul in these last days "Come and see".
The 'Resurrection of the Body' happens when you're alive , not after you're dead. It's a tremendous energy which flows through the body, possibly caused by the reactivation of the Thymus gland. All the great mystics experienced it, although they didn't say too much about it. Krishnamurti only spoke of it on his deathbed. Nowadays Eckhart Tolle talks about the 'inner body' often.
Maybe, life once will be able to restore you (to wake you up from the dead) because you are written in its own structure and it will be able to read the "book of life". I would recommend with Isaak Newton: Be careful with hasty judgements and conclusions about the future ability of the mind (or the life)!
I'm always just as clueless after I watch one of these
It's scandalous that you didn't interview N.T. Wright or Stephen T. Davis.
Sam Harper it seems the host is interviewing only christian philosophers not theologians
If you are resurrected in heaven (a place of eternal existence)
with a new body and are a certain age that never gets older,
do you no longer need food ?
No need of a stomach, intestinal system, or a rectum ?
All the internal parts that are necessary for us to exist in this life would seem
to become superfluous.
What would you look like ?
“The best picture of the human soul is the human body.” Wittgenstein.
a discussion based on the question of 'why a body in a resurrection' with several theologians, 27 minutes of discussion and not one of them makes any reference to scripture or the environment in which those scriptures were produced… on a material subject that could only be understood through revelation; there is no historical development or cultural citations, theologians sit at their desks, make hypothesis, think themselves clever, award themselves phds, and wonder why others remain skeptical
Yes, and then pretend all that groping about brings them "Closer To Truth"...
I don't want my body ever again. It has caused me too much suffering.
Our bodies die and decompose into their constituent parts.
What survives the death of the body is your consciousness which is part of the greater consciousness. Does it have a body? Well, maybe it is an energy or light body, or spiritual body.
But really, it is a mystery.
Sorry to hear about your suffering. I somewhat understand your feeling as I've been struggling with terrible gastritis for 5 years ( after fighting cancer). I like the word "mystery" too. Why do we think there is no mystery to life?
A third question is at what stage of that bodies existence would it be resurrected, at death or when?
Jesus is our redeemer.
get out while you still can Chris.
What if in an unlimited dimensional universe you, like God, are in all of them now experiencing the same life in different ways? And, in the end come together as you, Robert Lawrence Kuhn with the memories of all of those lives as your existence experience!
I think many people who have physical illnesses don't want a "body" in the after-life. However a resurrection body is meaningless for most people who don't think the possibility of an after-life exists.
Discover "faith in God" through the scientific methodology in only three stages: faith in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery faith is in any hypothesis precedes the stage of discovery. Faith in God’s hypothesis is justified.
Your comment misses the key point: that Christ's resurrected body as recorded in the gospels exhibits transformed continuity. Physical illness is eliminated. Additionally, personhood is embodied - we think, act, etc., with our entire embodied mind, which is located in communities. This is absolutely consistent with contemporary philosophy of mind and is why the greatest 20th c philosopher of mind, Ludwig Wittgenstein, described his thinking as 100% Hebraic. By the way, the idea that there is no resurrection is meaningless to Christians, so I'm not sure why you would write your second sentence.
@@lesliecunliffe4450 Hey Leslie... I did not intend to say that the resurrection is meaningless "to Christians." I meant to say that people who don't believe in an afterlife certainly don't believe in any kind of resurrection, Would that not be contradictory if they believed such? I agree that to Christians, the resurrection ( however it would happen) is very important. In fact, if no resurrection of Christ, then no crucifixion, then no Son of God on the cross, then probably no god ( or at least no Christian god ).
@@johnbrzykcy3076 But that's obviously the case and therefore not worth mentioning, which was my point. Best wishes.
According to Paul's letter to the Romans, the resurrected afterlife is experienced as transformed continuity as lived out in an equally transformed creation and world. The 'nonphysical' afterlife is not a Jewish/Christian idea but one imported from Greek thought. The Hebraic idea is a physical resurrection of the embodied person. That's why Wittgenstein described his thinking as 100% Hebraic, which is consistent with his embodied, communitarian view of the mind. Sources: Wright, N.T. (2003) The Resurrection of the Son of God, London, SPCK; Labron, T. (2006) Wittgenstein's Religious Point of View, London, Bloomsbury
I think most people, even people without religious faith, deep down desires an essence of himself or herself continues to exist beyond death, no matter how hazy this idea may be. Very few really desires to be extinguished like a flame without a trace after death.
According to the Urantia Book, what really "resurrects" in our next life is not the material body, it is the personality, the identity of the person. We are to be re-personalised with memories that are worth keeping and mind-patterns in a new life vehicle, the morontial form. You "sow a mortal body" in the grave, you reap "a morontial form" on the mansion worlds. (Paper 39:2)
I think the mistake is in thinking that we live in a physical universe NOW. We’re merely experiencing a material sense of a non-physical universe ... as in dreams.
I presume after this life, one’s body would merely be a more true-to-form representation of one’s inner beauty or lack of. So angels would probably ‘look’ amazing, to reflect their love of ‘God’/truth.
But again there would be no physical body per se. It’ll just be spirit touching or seeing other spirits through a material sensing... as in dreams! But then there’s no reason to believe that’s not what we’re doing even NOW.. although less true to form!
The body at moment of death, the physically healthy and youthful body, the ailing body but nature brain, the ideal and optimal body? What about pets' and pests' bodies? It's be awkward to look at the one legged cricket I accidentally stepped on for eternity.
Transcendence is the goal of the game. A material body is the game. Once you reach the goal, you enjoy it for a while, but you eventually want to go back to playing the game so you can try to beat it again.
And being in the present , President body with all your historical memory and then you create your own information upon on top of all existing information 🙏🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻
Our ego is so big, that one body isn't enought anymore, we want more bodies...
I think they start out believing want their saying? I think it's all BS because no one has sent a postcard back from the other side.
I think Robert here is riding the crazy train. Going from Science to fantasy.
Hey... I'd like to ride, not the "crazy train," but amidst the branches of TREEBEARD in The Lord of The Rings fantasy!
Roberts reached an age he feels Death/End is near,so naturally he seeks knowledge on Death,Afterlife.There will come a time when you might too.
@@HumanBeingsRThinkingBeings In the middle of a pandemic, I suspect we all worry about dying. The only way to discover anything about what it's like to be dead is to ask a dead person. Which is problematic. Robert is talking to (living) people who claim to know about being dead. Probably to make an entertaining video: we certainly aren't going to actually find out what it's like to be dead.
@Stefano Portoghesi I'm gonna keep riding "the Peace Train."
@Stefano Portoghesi Peace to you....
The Bible answers these questions best. I don’t hear anyone using what the Scripture reveals to answer Mr. Kuhn’s questions.
Christians who believe in the resurrection of the physical body should read 1 Corinthians 15 again.
Don't fret. Believe in us(humanity) and our mother(earth). It will take time, but Wisdom shall prevail. Its inevitable.
I really learn a lot from watching these episodes. Thank your for producing this content!
Over my dead body… has a whole meaning
Anyone who can speak with such certainty about that which cannot be known is indeed a fool. Many, many fools in this episode.
I think there is a difference between a self and an identity; identity seems to have more to do with memory and prediction whereas self is about awareness or consciousness.
Information is never lost to the ideal Observer, (even if reality were exclusively materialist, it's still never lost) so even if there is resurrection through a recurrence theorem, infinite monkey theorem or a cosmic mind pulling your blueprint from the platonic archives and adding a drop of time to it...with maybe a slight adjustment to see how the butterfly effect writes it out, I think the characters really exist in a very real cosmic story.... even though a self might not always remember past parts it has played.
The neverending storyverse
I was thinking long and hard about this most important question of all in theology and came up with only one idea that satisfy most aspects and contemporary thoughts. I don't know if this is true, but this partial solution doesn't contradict anything i know about religion, science and my personal experience, that's weird and reason why i might be on to something.
Let's imagine history have some physical structure, like light we can see in the night sky, traveling to us from a distant worlds long lost in the past. This means everything that happened still exist inside a sphere of electromagnetic wave radiation we emit from day we are born and until we die. Than there's a weird property of consciousness when our perception of self change with personal morals, our thought depends on memories and emotional intelligence in the present. But those are not objective physical properties, if i could relieve same moment, my material form will exist the same, but my thoughts might be slightly or radically different, since they emerge from deeper thoughts. This fact got me thinking, entire system might transcend dimension, maybe light we radiate can have life of it's own.
It would be like all we experience right now is just one possible path of signals inside our virtual physical brain, that exist inside nothing of space time. We exist as sphere of light radiation, our conscious mind can travel all around that sphere. This version of consistent self is one pulse, another version is slightly ahead and another version is traveling behind us, all pulses are just as real and consistent as this one.
This idea would imply material reality has already happened, we just have different thoughts each time our conscious soul travel trough same hyper material maze. Material structure of events stay the same, just our sense of self is always different.
Next problem is what is real material structure than, it's probably just physics, just particles and stuff that doesn't have any intent or meaning. This is just another horrible idea anyway, nobody can imagine eternal bliss without paradoxes and agony of some sort because everything that last to long must became evil and unbearable sooner or latter, no matter how good and beautiful it seemed at the beginning of eternity. My paradox avoid those problems, we can never experience material structure directly because all physical procesess must travel in time and all eternities end just as same as original one, except it always seems new to us. It's not complete theological idea because it doesn't answer what happens when babies are born sick, in misery and die after few years of incredible agony they went trough until that far somehow, no matter how conscious experience can change, it can never be a tolerable and good existence, so this idea must also be false or entire existence must be unbelievable evil, no matter how average eternities might appear nice, moral, logical and pleasurable in that flawed concept of mine.
I think you need to read about Islam
@@mustafaelbahi7979 disagree, he's already demonstrated a huge waste of time and energy in the story he just wrote. This guy needs to get as far from dogma as possible and start his secular journey...leaving obtuse ruminations (like above) in his past.
@@gwills9337 It seems that you do not know what the doctrine means and that every person has a doctrine and that you must correct your limited doctrine in a question of how? To answer the question, why?
@@mustafaelbahi7979 Why, new version of Koran came out or something?
@@xspotbox4400 Because they don't want you to get an answer to the question, why? Which would justify the reward for your nervous system.
Im not sure how you would be disappointed or upset about something you will have no recollection of from your patterns past.
It is a Buddist thing to just let it go.
Yeah his view was the worst I thought. It's like making clones but improving them each time they die.
I never thought anything would make me hate the word "particular." But, alas, I hate it now.
These people cannot see beyond the physical. So sad.
I could imagine resurrection appealing to some of a scientific bent bcause of its materialism. Information is a property of a physical system.
After spending hundreds of hours reading the Bible, secondary sources, watching lectures etc. I find it very difficult not to resent Christianity. If we must take our inheritance from antiquity I much prefer Attic culture. I grew up in a household that encouraged reflection on Isaiah and Paul rather than Plato and Archimedes; this utterly baffles me.
With respect to the historicity of the bodily resurrection: All four Gospels mention an empty tomb, all mention Joseph of Arimathea moving the body to the tomb, and all mention that the tomb was discovered empty on the third day by female followers of Jesus. So it seems to make sense to invoke, in accordance with principles of historical criticism, the criterion of multiple independent attestation to show that each of these events is historical. However, multiple attestation doesn't furnish us with absolute evidence. With respect to the tomb the Gospels only agree on the point that female followers of Jesus witnessed the associated miracles at the tomb itself. Three of the Gospels, all but Matthew I believe place a special emphasis on Peter as receiver of post resurrection miracles and appearences. In fact, the Gospels place an unusual emphasis on Peter throughout. My gut feeling is that the Nazarene cult had much greater ties to power than we are led to believe, Council member Joseph of Arimathea being one among many (The gospel of John says that Joseph was fearful for his life and indicates that he had very little sympathy in the Council but this seems to be more of a projection of the sectarian nature of the milieu that produced the Gospel of John than anything else in my view). I believe that Peter played a prominent role in centralizing the cult in Jerusalem along with others such as the sons of Zebedee due to the frequency with which their names are given in the Gospels. I believe that the accounts we have received in the Gospels may indeed be very close to eyewitness accounts in some sense, but that these accounts are filtered through the lens of this centralized cult, and that through length of time and endless repitition and reworking through countless preaching campaigns where new members are gained and lost that these eyewitness accounts drifted and drifted until they were muddled. The resurrection account is likely a fabrication that took hold once its effectiveness for recruitment was quickly realized. Those Christian communities that became prominent inherited these distorted stories and each of these in turn evolved again, reaching a variety of centers of gravity which were necessarily thrown off the mark by their reliance on this Peter associated centralized cult for source material.
Sorry, Sid...you've just exposed your antipathy for this subject. What an abominable "student" you are--or is that claim merely a pretense to credential the summary of lies with which you follow it?
Despite all of your "hundreds of hours of study", you willfully skirt the real appearances Jesus made to his disciples after His resurrection--His actual bodily presence, attested by the joyful embrace of the women in the garden (Matthew 28), His later eating of the fish in the presence of His disciples (Luke 24), and the "hands-on" palpation of His stigmata by Thomas (John 20). And these are only a few written reports drawn from 40 days of observing His bodily presence between His Resurrection and Ascension.
You are deceitful for omitting what every reader will find, and what every believer knows is crucial to the Gospel--for Christ's bodily resurrection signifies the acceptance of His sacrifice by the Father for sin, which is the singular basis for the forgiveness we may find by placing our confidence each in His personal substitution for the individual's sin penalty.
Therefore, your bias is fatal to your opinion.
"'Why are you troubled,' Jesus asked, 'and why do doubts arise in your hearts? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see-for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.' And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet."--Luke 24.38-40
@Sid: You are out of date. Critical scholarship on the written historicity of Jesus and the resurrection had vacillated much during the 19th-20th centuries. But today both are widely accepted as being promulgated verbally almost immediately with written attestation widely distributed within 30 years of the cruxifiction. Common sense rules the day when one considers that the followers of Jesus almost immediately came out of hiding and proclaimed the unlikely message of his resurrection, much to their own peril, both from the Jews and Rome. Whether or not Peter was considered the leader of the movement is not relevant to the message. As a matter of history, the church fathers often disputed their preeminence based on their personal relationships with Peter, John or James after the apostles died. The fact that the Roman church achieved prominence 300 years later is irrelevant. Keep studying my friend. "Whoever endures till the end (in faith), will be saved."
@@thomasdykstra100 I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression. I do hold a deep antipathy for the subject and I thought I was open about this. If you must know I carefully track all of my study time, severe OCD perhaps but undiagnosed. I'm generally against credentialing as I find it distasteful. I wasnt trying to credential so much as make it clear to the reader that the my opinions aren't entirely ill formed. (Aside: I'm a curious person and I noticed that you mentioned credentials in another post on this channel. This is psychologically interesting.)
I didn't mean to exclude the other appearences, their very existence helped me form my conclusion. Clearly we disagree. My opinions are based on reading the resurrection accounts two times over. In performing this task I sought to write down every event that is shared in all four resurrection accounts. My efforts resulted in the following common thread: Joseph of Arimathea moved the body to a tomb, the tomb was found empty on the third day by (at least) two female followers of Jesus who also saw brightly illumed figure(s). Call this collection of events A. Call the events you referenced in Mt 28, Lk 24, and Jn 20 B, C, and D respectively. We have the following table:
Event: A
Textual Source: Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn
Reported Witness(es): (at least) Mary Magdalene and Mary
Event: B
Textual Source: Mt
Reported Witness(es): Mary Magdaline, Mary
Event: C
Textual Source: Lk
Reported Witness(es): Disciples
Event: D
Textual Source: Jn
Reported Witness(es): Disciples
Etc.
This table may or may not be missing textual sources and witnesses since I haven't revisited the accounts. If there exists an event K that needs to be incorporated into A please let me know. Anyway, if we continue to fill out the table with other appearances E, F, G, H, I, etc. we start to see some interesting patterns. The predominant terms under 'Reported Witnesses' are Mary Magdaline, Mary, Disciples, and Simon Peter. Simon Peter appears suspiciously often. Events B, C, and D are peculiar in that they mention that Jesus physically touched people and objects. B shares the same witnesses as event A within the context of Mathew; C again places a special emphasis on Simon; D is most peculiar. D for doubting Thomas lol. I do wonder about the historical circumstances surrounding this passage. Notice the part about the windows being closed. Very strange. There is quite a lot going on here.
It seems that we must agree to disagree. I don't see how these sources provide us with enough additional evidence to turn the tables. The reported witnesses of these appearences are frustratingly lacking. We are told about events witnessed by the remaining disciples but through the mouth of the Gospel writers. We simply must take into account the political motives of these authors and the institutions they represented.
"This is written so you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name." - John 20.31
Not exactly the words of Thucydides.
I feel a great deal of woe over the paucity of our textual sources. What history has left us is but a poorly formed shadow of an object that we will likely never get to see. It seems like the Gospels tell far more about how the idea of Jesus of Nazareth was used as a recruitment tool than they do about the man himself. If only I could be there to witness it myself rather than being forced to meander through the tea leaf crumbs of ancient manuscripts.
I'll leave you with a poem inspired by this exchange:
Indulgent tapestry fatally torn
Virgin stars in serpent's coil
Billow hands of Temple worn
Words of wineskin often spoil
@@lastchance8142 In the absense of a conversation partner who is deeply interested in biblical scholarship I probably wont return to the Biblical text for some time. Not sure why the thirty year time frame counters what I've said. I was vaguely aware of Mark being written in the 50's or 60's and had this in the back of my mind. Mark is my favorite book of the NT, it's so alive.
Hey Sid... I'm trying to understand why you resent Christianity?
This is theological and philosophical shenanigans and religious sheer nonsense.
"I doubt, but hope, it's Closer to Truth". Big thumbs up from me for the video (despite, or because of, some of my snarky comments).
All these worldly gods and their concepts are human made...
When we die the radiation leaves the body and the physical body biological body stays and the radiation comes out of the present memory goes to historical memory until it will be present again in this virtual reality experience 🙏🌻🌻🌻🌻🌻
I really appreciate you approaching this subject and field with the same objectivity I’ve seen in your other videos especially reading the comments of the majority of the viewers. Kudos 😉
Ro Es I equally appreciate your comment. It baffles me that so many people can’t express a difference of opinion without being dismissive, derisive or argumentative. Thank you for strengthening my faith in TH-cam commenters. In regard to Robert, I think you’re right because he’s like that in his other videos too. His subjectivity is objective and his objectivity is subjective 🤣. Stay safe friend 🙂
If you believe in resurrection your pattern is what must be preserved then resurrected into a new body. Makes sense because my original body is long gone through continual replacement of atoms and cells. Only memory and consciousness appears to remain. Patterns.
Buddhism is about soul extinction. Nirvana means ''snuffing out''. Judaism does not have an afterlife. Christianity speaks of a higher type of body. " There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.'' No religion is Abrahamic, he didn't found any religion.
Good
Great talks...love it
It's a metaphor of conciousness being connected to the body...
After death we are either cremated or buried and become worm food.
Either way, it's gonna be awfully hard to put all the atoms back together again.
Not even the king's horses could do that.
Man where did you get these people. Was she educated at Disney Land. This it what happens when people are educated in a box.
Home skooled !
I think to understand the Resurrection its important to understand ancient Near-East ontologies of the 'Self'.
Hey DLee... can you explain what you mean by "ancient Near-East ontologies of the 'Self?"
The consciousness mechanism requires a physical state.
Is Robert Lawrence Kuhn taking the Devil Advocate approach in this presentation. That I can buy into. If he really believes what he is saying then there is a limited understanding of the concept of Resurrection Of The Body. We need to let go of our ego and trust God. That is the definition of Faith.
I find the biggest problem is the limitations the show places on which mythologies they query.. as a neo progressive conservative, I have answers that are very different from those reached in many of the shows. I'm sure many do..
Here's an idea... resurrection is the body and consciousness being reformed as it was. Reincarnation is the consciousness transfering to another body.
As reincarnation would require birth, the process of synching the past mind/consciousness with the new still developing body might explain the lack of conscious memories of a past life and the "natural" talents that a person could discover because of learning that ability in the last life... maybe...
I'm probably projecting my prejudices on it, but Robert's face when talking to the "particularity" woman around 3 to 4 minutes in looks just like an "oh whoops, I've got to politely listen to this and somehow make a video out of it" face.
My goodness! Doesn't she get silly at around 16:30 ? Lots of undefined technical words that might just be woo-woo. Robert exudes patience.
Didnt get that whatsoever, Robert has done thousands of interviews over the years and met people with so many different ideas and beliefs, he wouldn't be shocked by any idea that you would consider crazy, he is a respectful journalist and if he ever came across disrespectful he would no longer get any guests.
@@bannaubrycheiniog1329 You are absolutely right, of course: I was just seeing what I thought ought to be there. People are prone to that, apparently, and none of us is immune.
Doesn’t matter that you are 21 years or 70 years old, our body changes, maybe we go in different experiences with our body only not our consciousness/soul....our soul age may be in different way....
I have been aware of spirit most of my life, it stays with you all your life once you have seen, heard etc, no one will believe you unless they have experienced it. Ask or seek it will be shown to you if you are sincere.
Hey Michael... aren't those the words of Jesus the Christ? Some people don't care to ask or seek.
@@johnbrzykcy3076 yes, it can be very scary at times not to be messed with, all we need to do is sit and be quiet we would learn so much more in this life. I dont understand it but i know spirit is real, i think you have to look at atoms, electricity etc to understand how it can be. Best wishes. Michael.
@@michaelburden5895 Thanks for sharing Michael.
@Stefano Portoghesi I disagree. Jesus loved us too much to want to free Himself from the ropes and nails. That was the real power of God, love for His creation. I respect your worldview. He did die like any other crucified human would have died, but his reason to die was love. I wish I could understand that kind of love.
@Stefano Portoghesi Wow... Thanks for sharing all that. I have to read slowly and try to digest what you say. I guess I am "insane" then because I think Jesus died for love of his creation. Of course it seemed like everything was beyond his control when he died. Jesus even felt abandoned by both His Father and his followers. So... let me read again what you wrote and try to understand your worldview? Okay? John in Florida
If you're commited to your own persistence; check out Dharma and Karma and try to imagine how it might work.
in platos form ,a body in its perfect form maybe the one that is in resurrecttion eliminated those imperfectness and exist in a perfect form of self ,meaning to say me or my self in a perfect me at my resurrection
Catholics, like me, believe in being judge by God right away after we die (soul)...then our body get resurrected when Jesus comes back.
That's not what Catholics believe, though. Where did you hear that? In Catholicism you are dead and you stay dead until you get resurrected. Then you get judged. Most go to hell, some go to heaven. So, in essence, Catholic heaven and hell are completely empty as of now. The torture, either way, doesn't start until Christ comes back.
Christ's resurrection of his body was for the purpose of demonstrating to humanity that mankind has more life awaiting them beyond the material death experience. If mankind were each perfect spiritual ideas in the divine Mind -- then each person's identity can never be lost, nor die, nor be destroyed -- because all that God creates is eternal. Christ's body was resurrected as material because the disciple Thomas felt the holes in Jesus' hands and side left during the crucifixion.
But, it is likely that after Jesus stayed 40 days on the earth following his resurrection -- that as Jesus ascended into heaven, Jesus de-materialized and became totally a spiritual image in Heaven.
It started for me 30 years ago when I purposed all matter gets pulled down to a single point from all Black Holes combined and then once to much matter is at one spot Space time restarts ,so what happens to self aware beings is the second question for me but I think we may become non material being at some point after living the choice of life by joy or by darkness, maybe required to be a being of joy before becoming non material....thinking out loud
I'm halfway through but is he going to touch on the Dzogchen rainbow body or the Hermetic 'body of light' as (in Manly P Hall's words) the golden wedding garment at the Wedding of the Lamb? It's the alchemical side of this that's way more interesting.
Folks ! When you die that’s all folks. Stop trying to justify this afterlife fantasy. Deal with the realization of your impending death and move on with what is left of your life.
Hey Jeff... when you stated "that's all folks," it reminded me of those old cartoons on tv. I hope this life is more than a cartoon.
John Brzykcy . Well it is more then a cartoon. Maybe you have kids. They hopefully live on after you die. So you passed your genes to them. In a way you do live on thru your children. That really is all that can be expected as an afterlife
@@jeffamos9854 I respect your worldview. But I myself hope and trust in an afterlife with the Creator of the cosmos - Jesus the Christ. John in Florida
Yep.
Ever notice how people who want to believe in eternal life are narcissistic and can't imagine the world going on without them?
The world will go on without me. Yet I believe in the possibility of an eternal life. By "narcissistic" do you mean self-centered?
@@johnbrzykcy3076 They think their breadth of knowledge, wit and experience should carry on. They love themselves.
@@moonbeamskies3346 Thanks for sharing the definition. I hope I'm not narcissistic.
“Sorry Erick” lol
would a person with down syndrome or a baby dies at 6 months old would they be happy to be resurrected.....what happens if the earth ends where will all these souls live?
Where does the lady get the information that angels are immaterial? On a side note, I don't think there's any such thing as something that's totally immaterial in the non-physical sense. There is matter\energy, and God is made up of both and so are angels and so are we. After all, we still don't know what most of the universe is made of! I'm not saying that dark matter is the same as spirit matter, but who knows. That's why I enjoy physics, I love the search knowledge!
Where does it say in scripture that angels are immaterial? I don't even think God is immaterial! He's just as real and physical as the rest of us. Personally I believe that angels are people that either haven't been born yet, or they are people that have died. After all, who better to help out somebody here on Earth than maybe their deceased mother or something like that. Those who love us the most would find the most joy in being involved in our lives.
Don't fall into the trap of imagining that just because there is a word for something there must be some underlying substance. Angels are just a part of a fantasy that has no foundation outside of the imagination of the people who invented it.
it was interesting to read your comment and notice where your 'love of physics' ends at 'I believe in angels'. It's almost like the ladder impedes the former.....
@@gwills9337
Not at all. Physics is hypothesis, evidence, data, and theory based. But the deeper my understanding of physics goes, the more I realize how little we actually know. And the entire cosmos could be full of things we have no understanding about.
My religious beliefs do not preclude my understandings of physics and my studies in that area. I can't prove God exists. I can't prove there's life after death, and I can't prove there's life before death. But I have a hypothesis that those things are real, and there is evidence, personal evidence, that I have experienced and also the experiences of people in my immediate family, that lead me to believe these things are indeed real. It is nothing that I could write a dissertation on, but there is enough evidence for me to at least entertain the possibility.
My belief in God is absolutely not the Trinity! That's not a hypothesis that I believe has any validity. I believe that God is a literal father of our spirits, that we lived before this earth, that we exist in mortality for a short time, that we die and eventually get resurrected and live again. I know there's not a whole lot of evidence for these ideas except for some crazy Bible stories, but there could be validity to these stories and my personal experiences, and those from my family lead me to believe that these stories have some truth to them.
God, or my Heavenly Father is a physical being. He has power and glory and influence that expands through the cosmos, though I can't tell you exactly how. Perhaps the fields of field theory emanate from God, or at least he has the power or technical knowledge to manipulate them. I don't know.
My religious beliefs are that we have the capacity to become like God, that's why he chose to be called only Father, because like earthly children we have the capacity to become like our parents. And maybe in a trillion years after I die I will evolve to that state that He is in now.
I am not the only one to believe this way. 2001 space Odyssey is probably the closest science fiction depiction to what I think God is. So some people would call them aliens. Or maybe in
Interstellar, God would be one of the 5 dimensional Bulk beings.
Anyway that is what I currently believe. I know my beliefs are likely to change as I gather more evidence and have more personal experiences. I don't expect anyone to believe what I believe without having similar experiences. I enjoy studying physics, and I've dedicated my life to that research, because I like to know how the universe works. My religious beliefs teach me WHY the universe exists and why I am here. Science teaches me HOW the universe came into being and the laws by which it functions.
The qur'an answers all questions
Why a body in a resurrection, are gold is eternity, if we don't rich tha point, the father send you back whit all the information to produce a new form of life can be any-tin, in a new universe is the reason multiunivercse exist, you comeback whit a new opportunity and at the same time you reproduce your spirit energy, in more life (spirit energy) is the reason of the body. stay in the bright side.
If the body is burned after death?then how you resurrect?
This is a hot topic.
"some very intelligent people believe in god" Yes, you need a lot of intelligence to ponder the subleties of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. But that kind of intelligence does not always walk hand in hand with the ability to question the unsupported assumptions that underly your beliefs. That much is clear from this video, where the religious participants blithely ignore or don't even appreciate the missing foundations on which their beliefs are based. If you hold that the earth is held up by four pillars then you need to address what do those pillars rest on.
turtles, obviously!
Great philosophical response.
The philosophical answer is a question in it self..One
We're the most not only discusting but self-conceited creatures ever exists, who de we think we're deserve to second bite of a cherry!!
Correction typo:who do we think or entitled for a second chance to revivify again...
It is a surprise to me that so many highly-educated persons would be talking absolute nonsense, with absolute conviction. .
The “Cannibal Paradox” shows how silly this idea is. Imho there should be a 2nd channel called “further away from truth” where he talks to religious people. As they start talking, the camera goes more and more out of focus and the audio degenerates into random noise.
It all has to with original intent!! Man was made as a composite being of spirit, soul, and body!! Made in the image and likeness of God!! But God is spirit and has no image right?? Well, God did acquire an image when God took on flesh in the person of Jesus!! In time, the incarnation happened some 2000 years ago, but at the incarnation eternity came into time!! The person of Jesus had two natures Eternal God and Man in flesh!! In Jesus creation is bridged with the creator!! Jesus is the bridge!! The one mediator between God and Man!! So, Having an eternal component, everything Jesus was/is and did, had an eternal component to it!! That said, when Genesis says that man was made in the image of God, it was referring to Jesus!! Jesus is the image of the invisible God !! So, we were made to be like Jesus, having bodies and spirits!! That is the original intent for Man!! That said, the redemption wrought by Jesus redeemed both body and soul for eternity!! Soul first and then the body!! In that order!! That is why we get our bodies back at the end, though not as we have the body now!! Our bodies now, are not in the image of Jesus!! Our current bodies are corruptible!! The bodies we receive at the resurrection are incorruptible, impassable, infinitely agile, and immortal!!
Not sure the particularity theory you presented makes sense...
Fact, Energy transformed into matter and then matter transformed into intelligence. This entire process came strictly from the potentiality that exists inside this energy as we live in a closed system. It's evident that energy in it's purest form makes Universes and biological beings. The making of this current system is wondrous, complexed and even unfathomable. So, it is sensible to assert this energy has infinite possibilities considering what it already did with the creation of this universe. Based on the evidence, I'm placing my bet on this energy system 'GOD' being able to create a state where man doesn't die and with ease. It is human mental limitation that believes the system has limits after all it has already done and that's foolish, for we are fools.
@Stefano Portoghesi Since you brought up science, let's talk some physics lol. Let's start with the easy stuff like quantum mechanics and the behavior of subatomic elements. Electrons for instance are nothing more than fields of probabilities. Photons my friend are massless. Photons/Light is never at rest according to relativity. Should I continue or do you see my point? To end, the world isn't made up of the physical stuff you think.
@Stefano Portoghesi I don't want to laugh at you but I can't help it lol. Sir there are many things that exists that cannot be tested or considered matter. How do we test for dark matter? You are talking about things you don't understand so be careful before you rant.
@Stefano Portoghesi By your deflection it's obvious my dark matter example made you very uncomfortable. Okay, let's back off the hard stuff and revert to some of the rubbish you mentioned earlier that I ignored. Can you provide some evidence to support a that photon is matter? What space does it take up and what's its mass?
@@djmarioc I just came here to tell you that you're out of your depth. You should be thanking Stefano for being so patient with you, as your rationalize and square circles in physics. It's always the preacher, the Woo, and the conman who seek physics to assert mysticalities rather than understand Nature.
@@djmarioc your dark matter question was incomprehensible and bespeaks your ignorance of the Higgs field, among other things. It's NOT okay to shake physics like a scrabble board, grasping for words/concepts that appeal to your dogma.
So why was Jesus resurrected with all his previous wounds? A lot of these theories proposed by these theists seem to want to dismiss the importance of resurrection of the original body. Obviously even they see the problem with the original theology.
And I agree with Robert Kuhn, the Eastern view of reincarnation loses our individual identity. But that's what everyone wants to preserve. If all reincarnation amounts to is the continued survival of energy and matter taking on different forms then we already have that in secular materialism, no need to even propose anything more. If that's the Eastern Mystical view then Eastern Mysticism is secular materialism. We already know that the matter and energy of our body will indeed be reincarnated as something else. That follows from conservation of energy and matter.
@@deadaccount5290 You're assuming that an immaterial soul could exist without a body. But if that were the case why would we bother having physical bodies in the first place?
Unless you consider yourself to already be a zombie, then having a physical body isn't going to turn you into one.
Particularity an interesting idea that preserves ego. Many prefer utopias of large amounts of sameness of thinking, values and actions like communism and wokeism and religion these seem dystopian with no possibility of change
Particularity provides for individual choices assuming individual responsibility. Change is synonymous with life. Utopias signal cessation of change.
Well first you should find a god that affects this reality. We haven't found any yet. So any further examination is pointless without a real foundation.
Thomas Ridley You mean YOU haven’t found one
@@theorderlyman8042
Why do you guys act your god is the only one that has ever existed. All of a sudden a new god comes up out of no where. Where you can't even agree on what your book is telling you. Really !!!
Excellent post.
@@moonbeamskies3346
✌
Thomas Ridley you guys? What are you on about? Haha assume much?
Dr. Who has it right just regenerate a new body for another season.
Where western science merges with eastern philosiphies. I can't blame John for rejecting that multi- gods/muti/consciousness/ multi- copies of self psuedoism. I could careless about any preposed simulation of me. Because it ain't ME!
I curiously lean towards the simple yet still awesome explanation for all of this found in the Bible. Using his unlimited power, God created a physical being from the "dust" or ground of the earth. Since He did it once, in the resurrection- why couldn't He do it again? Unless He somehow is limited in what He can do simply because humans don't understand it or cannot duplicate it in a lab.
Western science doesn't merge with anything, but there are plenty of people who don't understand science.
@@schmetterling4477 Well I'm not a scientist. But I do know mumbo jumbo when I hear it. If what he describes "multiple univereses with mulitple gods with multiple bodies" is your version of "science" then I don't know what to do with you.
Kudos -- 444 Gematria -- 🗽
Eleanor Stump does not seem to understand her own religion. “God is sitting in heaven”. God does not, at least in Christianity ‘live in heaven’. Heaven is not, in Christianity, a place, it’s an expression of the principle of wisdom through which God breathes life and meaning into the chaos of matter. The story of the Abrahamic religions is the story of how heaven creates purpose and meaning on the earth (i.e. in matter) and earth (matter) enables the manifestation of heaven, and this is achieved through the coming together of heaven and earth. Think of heaven as a platonic principle that has no real existence without becoming manifest in matter and earth as matter that is chaos until it is infused with the meaning that is the heavenly principles.
We need a physical body in resurrection because only the coming together of heaven (principles of meaning) and earth (matter) creates real and meaningful existence.
Before someone accuses me of being a mad Christian, I am a lifelong atheist, but I understand the importance of history, culture and psychology.
What denomination of Christianity teaches this?
Scott Helms - all and none of them, but it’s most clearly seen in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It’s the non-materialist view, the materialist view thinks that Genesis and the bible in general is a literal historical story and that heaven and hell are material places. The non-materialist view understands genesis and the fall as a symbolic (but real) representation of mans place in the cosmos and his/her relationship to God. The materialistic view is ignorant, greedy and small minded. The non-materialistic view is transcendent, beautiful and complete.
@@bdjshwbwhdhh1991 heaven is a real place moron....where do you think apostle paul went when he referred to the third heaven?
Ezekiel 18:4- .....the soul who sins is the one who will die.
Soul is a living, breathing creature. Genesis 1:20- then God said: "Let the waters swarm with living creatures(souls)....
Genesis 6:17- As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life....
Answer: Because some people are really gullible!!
Hey OpenMind... I don't really think of myself as "gullible" but I am open-minded.
John Brzykcy so open your brain fell out 🧠?
Jimbus Rift ok, prove me wrong. I’ll be here, all ears.
Please use global English when you can, i had to ask my Babylon fish what gullible means. Superstitious people are, generally speaking, special kind of cowards.
@@myopenmind527 If my brain fell out of my skull can I still remain open-minded?