Keep in mind *Subcreation* is a data-driven M+ tier list and it's not a 100% representation of what classes are capable of achieving. I would say the gap has been bridged between the top 2 healers (Druid/Evoker) and all of the other healers would sit slightly below them right now. I am relatively happy that Blizzard pushed changes faster than before. When comparing raid balance I would say it needs further inspection and tuning but that is probably only going to be addressed in the next raid.
I've been playing MW monk for many expansions and in my opinion the best thing they can do for it is split ranged MW and fistweaving into two seperate specs. Its 2 completely different playstyles trying to share the same tree, like if holy and disc priests were forced to share a tree. If they want to fix the problem, they need to split them. This would allow them to give fistweaving and ranged mistweaver talents they desperately need and don't have because they have to share 1 talent tree and there just isn't enough space for both. I have seen a lot of people trying to play ranged mistweaver again recently but it lacks much viability due to the spec being focused on fistweaver right now. If they could split the specs and give fistweavers the abilities they need and ranged mistweavers the ability to do good damage and use their utility from range, it would be an overall benefit to both playstyles.
All the have to do is just give Soothing Mist the passive aoe damage aura. Or add the talent Rdruids have that make all your healing do damage. Or make Jade Lightning the chain liughtning that does more damage. This would largerly solve the problem.
As soon as i saw the disc changes i was like "Oh we are back baby!" I leveled fast, skipped hc dungeons and went straight into keys and was absolutely blasting🥳 Sooo fun! Great video Mad!💯🔥👌
Valuable information. I would have preferred a HPS buff over DPS buff, but I agree with you that Shaman will be more fun. Thanks Mad. Have a great Sunday.
Holy Paladin Mastery is the main reason I've been benching my Holy Paladin for Mistweaver and Holy Priest, having a blast on both. Paladin is clunky and akward between its Mastery, Beacon and reliance on AW for to make your healing spells actually heal for any respectable amount. I've been contemplating Shaman and Druid recently but Shaman feels gimicky with its huge damage buffs and Druid is waaay to popular.
Playing mw here and new talent is nice, sheilun's feels really good but I wish the cast time wasn't this long, maybe make it interact with thunder focus to make it instant or something like that, almost 2 sec cast is way too long
As a resto shaman doing +18s now, I've tried the "dmg build". Turned out to be wasted talents because our HPS is so shit that we have to be ready to spam mana inefficient heals to save ppl and therefore cast only a few chain lightning/lava burst. I dont know why increase healer dmg if the specs hps throughput is low. It doesnt matter if I can do 20k dps if I let an actual dps player that does 75k die.
@@Chileno6921 Did I say that I'm having problems healing or did I say I dont have much downtime to do dps? Read carefully. Im tired of fat nerds saying "git gud"
I think monk is amazing in m+. Shaelun's and the buffed revival + cd reduction for it are insanely good. The mistweaving build pumps so much healing. Fistweaving deals more damage though. But Fistweaving doesn't feel hopeless like it did before the patch. Still difficult to pull off without a good group, but definitely feels doable now. Shaman still needs one more button for burst healing, be it vesper totem or chain harvest. Then they will be there too.
All SL restoration shaman said that vesper totem was not overpowered and they would be good without it. This is what restoration shaman is like without that huge crutch....
I main resto shaman, and although I freaking love the damage buffs, I feel like blizzard has really been pushing resto shaman as a battle healer more than an actual healer since shadowlands and it feels kinda bad... I mythic raid and would love to be able to heal more or bring more utility to the raid, not dps...
You’re totally sleeping on casting mw with unison, invoker’s delight, tear of morning, and yu’lon. I really think it’s probably one of the highest burst healers in the game was great mana management. Damage is kinda low though.
Hi, I am just wondering what addon / weakaura you use that flashes the middle of the screen whenever an ability is off cooldown? As a preservation evoker that would be really helpful
Is anyone else kind of regretting maining pres evoker? In raids it feels kinda clunky to me. And dealing with pug mythic+ groups with ranged characters that stand in Africa, and annoying spread fights like NO tempest, idk kinda wish I rolled something else
As a Rshaman I feel this expansion with how many swirlies we have to dodge it makes it hard to play a r shaman that has to cast a lot to heal. I’m looking to switch to a healer that has to cast less. Outside of cds we just don’t have a lot of burst healing. Might try a MW
MW here. New talents are nice but we still need some help. Sheiluns casting time is too high and not be a smart heal can really feel bad at times. Should be instant cast since you have to wait a while for clouds anyway
I prefer resto druid with these new changes. I hate playing melee, but to improve your dps it was mandatory. Now I just have to stay at range using DOTs and starfire. Btw I reach Protector of the pack using bear talents, improving my survability. Imo in pugs we don't need extra dots and aoe dmg in feral form when we already have starfire, sunfire, moonfire, swarm and starsurge.
This is my first tier raiding as Rshaman and tbh I'm not having a ton of fun playing it in raids. You want to feel like you're contributing to the success of your group, but things like cloudburst healing often go to overhealing because other healers are just better at healing and heal through damage bursts quicker than you can. My healing tide often overheals for more than it heals. I could switch to healing stream, but it's not much of a difference in output, sometimes lower than CBT. I kind of feel like shaman would be better if your group goes with fewer healers than what an encounter calls for. Maybe I suck at the spec; I wanted to make sham my new main, but with the evoker healing for like 50% more output than I can sometimes, pretty sure I won't be sham going into the next tier.
My tier list based purely on what I have played with in 14-17 level keys: S: Resro Shaman, Preserve Evoker A: Holy paladin, Holy Priest, MW Monk Have not played with it yet: Discipline priest Never take it, avoid any group with it: Resto Druid. I will avoid any group with a resto druid in it. Because they are so popular, I have run with far more of them then any other healer. And I have met a total of 1 resto druid who didn't suck.
@@DavidtheViking They are in an awkward spot to be honest. There tree kinda garbage and they play clunky. Blizzard needs to commit to either hpala being melee or ranged instead of trying to do both. Becuase Melee build and caster build both feel awkward because they not working well together in the tree.
@@DavidtheViking like other people said the main issue isn't performance but it doesn't feel great. Melee build is fun but can be unreliable given it's positional dependence and holy light build is fucking weird cause your best power generation is to waste healing on a beacon target to also spam holy power heals cause holy light casts like the bar is moving through custard. They seem to want to strike a balance but both feel half baked and not fully realised
Agreed, it’s more about play style than numbers. There is an aspect of unreliability. It doesn’t feel as confident as other healing classes. The numbers would slightly go up if it were addressed. I don’t think anything big needs to change, just the way holy power can be generated without wasted healing or being forced to be in melee while using GCDs on crusader strike. Being in a dangerous area and doing damage should be a rewarding experience and not one you have to put yourself in
I personally LOVE running my Holy Pally with a combination of Maraad's and Avenging Crusader. :P Im not someone that sticks to cookie cutter specs haha. I especially dislike Glimmer builds since they were so popular last expansion :P
Holy paladin is bottom tier healing and damage output in all forms of content, and the only changes we get are worthless, like they don't even play hpal. Avenging crusader isn't effected by mastery and is unusable as a result unless you make a gear set with as close to zero mastery as possible. They make buffs to the caster build which is pointless because our mastery forces us into melee anyway and we're still counted as melee for raid mechanics. They need to change the mastery to shock barrier and make avenging crusader effected by mastery. Or they can make beacons count as points of origin for mastery calculation again, and add the mastery range increase back to Rule of Law. We're getting overlooked for any buffs because of aura mastery, its the only thing we really have that is good and you could argue rewind is better.
Mastery is the main reason I've been benching my Holy Paladin for Mistweaver and Holy Priest, having a blast on both. Paladin is clunky and akward between its Mastery, Beacon and reliance on AW for to make your healing spells actually heal for any respectable amount.
Hpal buff is actually great. I don't see many hpal players not taking the build because it does less dps, but the difficulty of new hpal is just too little that any no brainer can heal 17+ TJS. The build I tested was Sangtified Wrath + Zealot's Paragon + Avenging Crusader.
Well druid is still op they nerft ysaras gift Abit that's it , paladin got Abit nerft it feels you need 5holy power to pop Wings and overal hps feels lower it was good wy change it, shaman still feels bad way to slow and you need high tide it feels like something is missing,and hpriest wel tbh it dosnt feel that bad atleast that are my experiences i feel sad about Paladin it's not my main bud so Fun to play.ok Mad thanks for the movie keep it going
I loved rdruid at the benning but i stopped playing it. The rework is disgusting. I hate the cat form nerf, the nourrish gameplay in pvp. I think the update is very bad designed and wrong. I ll reroll evoker cuz it s the only healer now.
Jesus christ bro for gods sake make melee wings spend mana again instead of fucking holy powers. I don't care make it literally spend 200k mana it'll still be better in dungeons. I'd rather use my holy powers on wog to actually heal the wounded target than using 5 holy powers to pop this garbage random heal cd. Ita only useful if it procs by itself rn
@@tay5658 This is why i hate M+ and only doing it cause i have to for my Raidgroup. Healers should be excel/ranked in their Usage of Utility and Healing the Group..Not their Dmg
Keep in mind *Subcreation* is a data-driven M+ tier list and it's not a 100% representation of what classes are capable of achieving. I would say the gap has been bridged between the top 2 healers (Druid/Evoker) and all of the other healers would sit slightly below them right now. I am relatively happy that Blizzard pushed changes faster than before.
When comparing raid balance I would say it needs further inspection and tuning but that is probably only going to be addressed in the next raid.
I've been playing MW monk for many expansions and in my opinion the best thing they can do for it is split ranged MW and fistweaving into two seperate specs. Its 2 completely different playstyles trying to share the same tree, like if holy and disc priests were forced to share a tree. If they want to fix the problem, they need to split them. This would allow them to give fistweaving and ranged mistweaver talents they desperately need and don't have because they have to share 1 talent tree and there just isn't enough space for both. I have seen a lot of people trying to play ranged mistweaver again recently but it lacks much viability due to the spec being focused on fistweaver right now. If they could split the specs and give fistweavers the abilities they need and ranged mistweavers the ability to do good damage and use their utility from range, it would be an overall benefit to both playstyles.
P😅 2:33 ny😊😊
Ö😅 3:20 Lilian. What 😊ut😊😊😊
Same with melee and caster holy Paladin. First node in the tree should be a choice between a melee or ranged playstyle.
All the have to do is just give Soothing Mist the passive aoe damage aura. Or add the talent Rdruids have that make all your healing do damage. Or make Jade Lightning the chain liughtning that does more damage.
This would largerly solve the problem.
I don't get how a spec that is supposedly B tier gets a buff and then lands in C tier
As soon as i saw the disc changes i was like "Oh we are back baby!" I leveled fast, skipped hc dungeons and went straight into keys and was absolutely blasting🥳 Sooo fun! Great video Mad!💯🔥👌
Valuable information. I would have preferred a HPS buff over DPS buff, but I agree with you that Shaman will be more fun. Thanks Mad. Have a great Sunday.
Holy Paladin Mastery is the main reason I've been benching my Holy Paladin for Mistweaver and Holy Priest, having a blast on both. Paladin is clunky and akward between its Mastery, Beacon and reliance on AW for to make your healing spells actually heal for any respectable amount. I've been contemplating Shaman and Druid recently but Shaman feels gimicky with its huge damage buffs and Druid is waaay to popular.
Playing mw here and new talent is nice, sheilun's feels really good but I wish the cast time wasn't this long, maybe make it interact with thunder focus to make it instant or something like that, almost 2 sec cast is way too long
I am so happy with discipline priest also got my shaman decent which really fun again
How do you feel about *healer* balance in M+ compared to Raid? 🤔
M+ is fine but shit in raid r shammy fucked in raid
As a resto shaman doing +18s now, I've tried the "dmg build". Turned out to be wasted talents because our HPS is so shit that we have to be ready to spam mana inefficient heals to save ppl and therefore cast only a few chain lightning/lava burst. I dont know why increase healer dmg if the specs hps throughput is low. It doesnt matter if I can do 20k dps if I let an actual dps player that does 75k die.
Our HPS isnt shit tho?, sure we might be lacking some burst group healing, but if you are having problems on 18s there might be a different issue
@@Chileno6921 Did I say that I'm having problems healing or did I say I dont have much downtime to do dps? Read carefully. Im tired of fat nerds saying "git gud"
@@MPHaddock Get help dude, you clearly have issues, not only in the game.
Hope life treats you better in the future
@@Petrixxxxxxx sure sure I hope the best to you buddy
Hey thx for this Video... as a restro druid i don't like the fact that i am forced to take the boomy Talents.. Just not my playstyle...
Agreed its shit
For sure. I 100% agree that the temporal anomaly changes made the rotation so much better..
I think monk is amazing in m+. Shaelun's and the buffed revival + cd reduction for it are insanely good. The mistweaving build pumps so much healing. Fistweaving deals more damage though. But Fistweaving doesn't feel hopeless like it did before the patch. Still difficult to pull off without a good group, but definitely feels doable now.
Shaman still needs one more button for burst healing, be it vesper totem or chain harvest. Then they will be there too.
All SL restoration shaman said that vesper totem was not overpowered and they would be good without it. This is what restoration shaman is like without that huge crutch....
During SL I never played around with VT, but I agree about chain harvest. Having that ability would definitely bring us to more relevancy. It slapped.
@@AmanitaMuscarias resto was genuinely really viable without vesper in sl I dunno how they managed to botch the healing numbers
I main resto shaman, and although I freaking love the damage buffs, I feel like blizzard has really been pushing resto shaman as a battle healer more than an actual healer since shadowlands and it feels kinda bad... I mythic raid and would love to be able to heal more or bring more utility to the raid, not dps...
You’re totally sleeping on casting mw with unison, invoker’s delight, tear of morning, and yu’lon. I really think it’s probably one of the highest burst healers in the game was great mana management. Damage is kinda low though.
Hi, I am just wondering what addon / weakaura you use that flashes the middle of the screen whenever an ability is off cooldown? As a preservation evoker that would be really helpful
could be Doom_CooldownPulse
Nice video! Thank you for making it.
Hey bro! do you have a guide/link to your addons profiles ?
I woul love to have something simuler :O looks sick!
Is anyone else kind of regretting maining pres evoker? In raids it feels kinda clunky to me. And dealing with pug mythic+ groups with ranged characters that stand in Africa, and annoying spread fights like NO tempest, idk kinda wish I rolled something else
They need to buff Holy Paladins asap this is crazy
Rework on mastery is the only thing holy paladin needs.
As a Rshaman I feel this expansion with how many swirlies we have to dodge it makes it hard to play a r shaman that has to cast a lot to heal. I’m looking to switch to a healer that has to cast less.
Outside of cds we just don’t have a lot of burst healing. Might try a MW
Bro where can I find your WeakAuras Perservation Evoker setup ?
When I get back from holiday, gonna level my priest and gear it. Got a bit sick of evoker now.
I love my resto shaman. I've been enjoying my druid but after trying resto shaman in this patch I don't want to go back.
When you are taking about healers in mythic plus but then show data from raids? Is that intentional?
MW here. New talents are nice but we still need some help. Sheiluns casting time is too high and not be a smart heal can really feel bad at times. Should be instant cast since you have to wait a while for clouds anyway
Its should be longer cast by 0.2 sec but heal 5 players and not only 3
Only thing about disc priest is my 4peace I want big bubbles but the bubble point is so far away.
Yea i can see RSham going up to A.. im doing 18s and 19s pretty damn comfortably
I prefer resto druid with these new changes. I hate playing melee, but to improve your dps it was mandatory. Now I just have to stay at range using DOTs and starfire. Btw I reach Protector of the pack using bear talents, improving my survability. Imo in pugs we don't need extra dots and aoe dmg in feral form when we already have starfire, sunfire, moonfire, swarm and starsurge.
what item are you using to play as a tuskarr?
Blubbery Muffin :)
Im still loving Holy priest. so good.
It feels great. Really smooth
Poor holy priest, btw these numbers and results are true but i never ever give up on hpriest
Holy is perfectly fine - lots of people are just playing disc bc of the changes
Holy priest is fantastic if your good at it
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 actually i play ranged healers but disc couldnt be an alternate of holy,at least for me, i hate meta things xd
@@VGDoctor disc is certainly not meta
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 i meant buffs and nerfs
This is my first tier raiding as Rshaman and tbh I'm not having a ton of fun playing it in raids. You want to feel like you're contributing to the success of your group, but things like cloudburst healing often go to overhealing because other healers are just better at healing and heal through damage bursts quicker than you can. My healing tide often overheals for more than it heals. I could switch to healing stream, but it's not much of a difference in output, sometimes lower than CBT. I kind of feel like shaman would be better if your group goes with fewer healers than what an encounter calls for. Maybe I suck at the spec; I wanted to make sham my new main, but with the evoker healing for like 50% more output than I can sometimes, pretty sure I won't be sham going into the next tier.
I went from resto sham to Holy priest this expansion. Great.
You didn’t the meta changes in every patch?
Holy priest is great
@@erichall090909 yeah honestly I think this ranking is wrong, it's better than resto shaman in M+
im happy resto is doing good, im said its not because of healing, healing is still clunky, as is lava burst into healing rain, it just feels... clunky
Try pulling the HPS a Holy priest can do vs a Disc and especially in AoE healing, you won't be able to.
Keep in mind barrier doesn't show up on the meters.
@@Luminon87 Iirc it does, as healing, and if you actually wanna filter it out as healing, the Details addon has an option to filter it out.
My tier list based purely on what I have played with in 14-17 level keys:
S: Resro Shaman, Preserve Evoker
A: Holy paladin, Holy Priest, MW Monk
Have not played with it yet: Discipline priest
Never take it, avoid any group with it: Resto Druid.
I will avoid any group with a resto druid in it. Because they are so popular, I have run with far more of them then any other healer. And I have met a total of 1 resto druid who didn't suck.
Basically 80-90% of the video on Evoker and Resto Druids, the rest are briefly mentioned!
Hpal needs a nudge more love ❤️
Why is that ? To be up like in SL s1? They in a good spot atm and capable of doing world 1st keys they just not op
@@DavidtheViking They are in an awkward spot to be honest. There tree kinda garbage and they play clunky. Blizzard needs to commit to either hpala being melee or ranged instead of trying to do both. Becuase Melee build and caster build both feel awkward because they not working well together in the tree.
@@DavidtheViking like other people said the main issue isn't performance but it doesn't feel great.
Melee build is fun but can be unreliable given it's positional dependence and holy light build is fucking weird cause your best power generation is to waste healing on a beacon target to also spam holy power heals cause holy light casts like the bar is moving through custard.
They seem to want to strike a balance but both feel half baked and not fully realised
Agreed, it’s more about play style than numbers. There is an aspect of unreliability. It doesn’t feel as confident as other healing classes. The numbers would slightly go up if it were addressed. I don’t think anything big needs to change, just the way holy power can be generated without wasted healing or being forced to be in melee while using GCDs on crusader strike. Being in a dangerous area and doing damage should be a rewarding experience and not one you have to put yourself in
First world keys have hpal in the comp
Rsham acid rain is going to get nerfed. Their dps is such a massive outlier
I personally LOVE running my Holy Pally with a combination of Maraad's and Avenging Crusader. :P Im not someone that sticks to cookie cutter specs haha. I especially dislike Glimmer builds since they were so popular last expansion :P
same here, something makes me not want to use default build thats over there lol
But but but.. I like holy 😊 I guess i give my shammy a go ...
Once again, mistweaver gonna end up the lowest dmg, forced to deal with meele mechanics while shaman breezes in the back doing way more
Why does holy priest never get love?
imho dps style healers should be higher in damage numbers, feels dumb when i can get similar dps or even bigger on traditionale healing classes
Holy paladin is bottom tier healing and damage output in all forms of content, and the only changes we get are worthless, like they don't even play hpal. Avenging crusader isn't effected by mastery and is unusable as a result unless you make a gear set with as close to zero mastery as possible. They make buffs to the caster build which is pointless because our mastery forces us into melee anyway and we're still counted as melee for raid mechanics. They need to change the mastery to shock barrier and make avenging crusader effected by mastery. Or they can make beacons count as points of origin for mastery calculation again, and add the mastery range increase back to Rule of Law. We're getting overlooked for any buffs because of aura mastery, its the only thing we really have that is good and you could argue rewind is better.
Mastery is the main reason I've been benching my Holy Paladin for Mistweaver and Holy Priest, having a blast on both. Paladin is clunky and akward between its Mastery, Beacon and reliance on AW for to make your healing spells actually heal for any respectable amount.
Hpal buff is actually great. I don't see many hpal players not taking the build because it does less dps, but the difficulty of new hpal is just too little that any no brainer can heal 17+ TJS.
The build I tested was Sangtified Wrath + Zealot's Paragon + Avenging Crusader.
Any no brainer can heal 17+ on any healer class, so there is no signifisang gap beetwen all of them and just a matter of preference.
@@uglyfate1326 We have a pro Gamer over here
Well druid is still op they nerft ysaras gift Abit that's it , paladin got Abit nerft it feels you need 5holy power to pop Wings and overal hps feels lower it was good wy change it, shaman still feels bad way to slow and you need high tide it feels like something is missing,and hpriest wel tbh it dosnt feel that bad atleast that are my experiences i feel sad about Paladin it's not my main bud so Fun to play.ok Mad thanks for the movie keep it going
You only need 5 holy power for melee wings, which nobody plays.
Let's go!🔥
I loved rdruid at the benning but i stopped playing it. The rework is disgusting. I hate the cat form nerf, the nourrish gameplay in pvp. I think the update is very bad designed and wrong. I ll reroll evoker cuz it s the only healer now.
Quentin 'FOTM' Julien.
@@Simon-pg1bm if u hate ur class design , just reroll
Quentin “Sohai” Julien
"I only play the best healers in each expansion"
Niceeee thx
Thanks for the tier list… I’ll make sure not to invite any priests, shamans, paladins or Mistweaver to my keys or raids
Why
@@erichall090909 Because he needs to be Carried. Its the baby mentality
Jesus christ bro for gods sake make melee wings spend mana again instead of fucking holy powers. I don't care make it literally spend 200k mana it'll still be better in dungeons. I'd rather use my holy powers on wog to actually heal the wounded target than using 5 holy powers to pop this garbage random heal cd. Ita only useful if it procs by itself rn
Ranking healers on their dps? What the actual fuck?
Welcome to the new era of “healing” in wow
Yeah Mad has a bad habit of making the obsession for meta worse. Don't take any notice, play what you enjoy.
All healers heal, but the healer with the most dps/utility in addition is always best in M+
@@tay5658 This is why i hate M+ and only doing it cause i have to for my Raidgroup. Healers should be excel/ranked in their Usage of Utility and Healing the Group..Not their Dmg
Hpal is still A tier easily
Sure buddy, lets not look at facts, but listen to a random TH-cam account.
SubCreation ranks them according to the affixes each week, and cus of tornados its been knocked down, along with general ranking though too.
@@Petrixxxxxxx let’s get pissed off because someone doesn’t agree with what one website says.
actaully most people have dropped life menders and are running a build to make your empowerd spells come back as fast as possible.
tldr. best healers? by far evoker then resto druid. since the begining of the xpack
Mad-howdoisay-skillzz
So stupid they nerfed rdruid, literally the first patch since BFA where they shine and now they already get nerfed
mistwiever...🥲