Years from now: "So, Chris, tell us how you got fired from the Dice Tower..." Seriously, though, my respect for Chris and the Dice Tower has grown. It's essentially a company sponsored game and yet one of their employees says, "I cannot humanly recommend anyone buy this game." Way to show integrity!
This game was annotated to backers as this is a "Kickstarter release only" from the start. The game was made to be a big production and loses some of the grandeur of city building if the buildings were not there. Most of us backers know this is KS only. I even waited a couple days backing to confirm am I willing to pay more for the look of a roman city on my playmat. It is the first time I balked at not immediately buying an Emerson Matsuuchi game. I like that Chris give his concerns about over scaling of production value and rates the game a 6.5, (pssst never get into Warhammer). But also Camilla states it would be a bland tile placement game and gives it a 7.5. Part of the fun of these reviews are with 4 people you can compare why this team of people we love to watch give their perspective on games and then assign a score. There will always be games that people like while at the same time that you or I will not like. And it is refreshing that the DT crew can honestly tell us why they don't like something, and hopefully without reprisal from the Internet.
I just saw this - great discussion. I didn't back the game because of the production. If this game was available as tile it would be an instabuy. I hope they make a retail version that has some special buildings as plastic but is predominantly tiles. Looks great on the table as this monstrosity - that novelty wears off after a few plays.
I feel Chris on his review. I don't think these reviews should just be game is fun or game is not fun. Need to consider how much it costs, how much space it takes up, and the other factors that go into buying a game or not. If the components could be cheaper and more compact with little detriment, I think it's valid to question why it wasn't done that way. It seems like one he'd recommend playing if you get the opportunity, but couldn't recommend you buying unless you really value the form factor and I appreciate that sentiment.
I agree with Chris, this Game is for conventions but I will never own this overly produced game that it’s mechanism seem too simple for such a huge box. Great review
@@Polovene the reality is that i can't play that game and the main reason is monetary. I for one believe that game design is art and art should be disseminate not gate kept.
I wozld love to have the option to buy a tile based version of the game in retail. And have the option to update to deluxe if I want to. I often update to deluxe with games I love. but its not nessecary for every game. For me it has the same problem as Era, which was so overproduced for a Roll and Write game. And the yellow board looked awful. If I would buy a deluxe game it should look like Foundations of Rome!
I agree with you on Foundations, though I got Era brand new for a pretty cheap price and it is only 1/3rd the size so I'm not sure that comparison fully holds. Ironically, I'm with Yi for this game, but I would never play Era as a roll and write.
I'm so excited to get my copy in a month or two. It's a grand experience that can be played in a short amount of time and will hit the table more often because of that.
So my understanding of the "Dicetower Essential" range/branding is that it is a game that Dicetower thinks everyone should own, am I right? If that is the case how can you label a kickstarter exclusive game that is not coming to retail as part of this range? Am I just not understanding what the "essential" label represents?
I was asking myself the same question. I don't even see the point of reviewing something that's Kickstarter Exclusive, because IMHO conceptually all that could be done for something like that is a preview. What's the point of having a review of something that cannot ever be bought again? Then again: In my opinion reviews are there for the purpose of making informed purchase decisions. Maybe some people only watch them to feel better about things they already bought?
See a lot of comments about making this just a tile laying game, which I get the point if trying to hit the mass market audience but the game pieces/buildings get picked up from the board frequently during the game play. I think it would be difficult to do this if they were flat tiles.
I went back to watch how the new Cleopatra production was reviewed. Interesting. This review would probably have been better with someone who is more critical of overproductions for the game underneath, like Zee for instance, to have supported Chris. I love Emerson, but I think they did him dirty with this production because if the GAME is as good as said - plastic aside, this looks like a pretty basic tilelayer - most people will never experience it because it is unnecessarily big and, as a result, unnecessarily expensive.
also, I wish Bonocaure would stop interrupting and then railroading people with childish antics. every review it is the same. have some class, man. edit: I do recognise that he could be so much worse without Tom reigning him in all the time
I 100% agree with your comment about Bounocore. I don't know if that's the persona he chooses to become when in front of a camera, or if he really behaves like that around his friends, but he comes across as very unlikeable.
Not sure who the size of the game is for. As someone getting deeper into the hobby, I cant justify the shelf-space, because i know there will be so much more coming i want to fit-- and if someone like me who has a ton of shelves dedicated to board games isn't the person this is for.. then who? the size of this isn't going to be what someone new to the hobby will pick up.
For me, with a collection over 100+ games now, I am looking for very specific games that have an impressive/unique table presence with replayable, interactive, and strategic gameplay experiences that I can table with my family AND my gaming groups. The storage/setup/teardown for this game sealed the deal for me to back it because I want it to be a quick and simple process. If this was produced just as a tile laying game I would want to play it some day but never buy it. I would probably forget about it to be honest. I want fewer games in my collection that I can play over and over while still delivering an outrageous experience in all facets.
@@daviblight if it was a little smaller I probably wouldn’t care, but I would want to be able to see those player markers on each building clearly on the board without having to stand up the entire game along with being able to pick up each building easily without knocking pieces over. Hard for me to say scaling down a little or not at all without having the physical game yet.
The overproduction debate here seems to boil down to what perspective you are coming from in terms of defining what overproduction means. From what I hear from their reviews this feels like a very accessible game that has been made inaccessible to some extent via its grand production and KS exclusivity. I think it hits the mark in what they were setting out to create, but based on the gameplay experience the game could achieve a similar result with a lot less and personally I think that makes it overproduced.
If it wasn’t the way it looked, it would be good but forgotten immediately with all the other great polyomino games we have available. Just do a push-up every so often. A board game shouldn’t threaten you.
Now that I have my copy of the game, I agree that the game is very overproduces for what is a welcoming game that is slightly more complex than Century Spice Road. If they wanted to do something more than tiles, they could have gone the route of Era. That has buildings that are smaller so the box size and footprint would be more reasonable.
Games with this level of production are usually reserved for incredibly mechanically complex games. It’s nice to have a big game for people who prefer easy-to-play, quick games but still want to experience those crazy production levels.
I think it would be perfectly fun as a tile game. And at least 1/4th the price and size. It's baffling to me the publisher didn't make a tile version for the mass market. The folks super into minis could get this version. Everyone is happy.
The thing is that the overproduction is put to good use. You could easy shrink that box 50 percent with the same plastic buildings but they made everything so its minimal setup and maximum convenience with the trays.. Saying the game is too pricey and has too much plastic could be said for 90 percent of KS and GF campaigns too. They were very upfront that this game would be KS only because of the cost and desire to include the components they did. It was marketed to people who seek this kind of thing. I think Camilla got it pretty spot on that just about anyone can play this one and if you dig the theme more than her its not going to be a bad buy to have in your collection.
I am in same boat Such a weird argument for overproduction. You seen cmon? You seen awaken realms? Would it be great if this game had a carton only version for retail? Certainly. Does it take away from the fact that this is an excellent city building game? Not at all. And those miniatures? Sign me up. Good game becomes better with good minis is what I think.
I 100% agree with Chris. I’m not against giant, lavish productions for those who want them, but to take a game that seems like it could appeal to a broad audience and then decide not even to make a ‘regular’ version is disappointing.
i.d.k. I would consider buying it as it is. Simply because my thoughts on games is that having a few really blinged out games beats having loads of games that are just sub par.
I'm genuinely surprised by Chris' comments. Not that he made them, but I honestly thought he would say it was down to the amount of needless plastic in the game/environmental issues.
Foundations of Rome is one of those games I want to play but have no desire to own. That box is obnoxiously big and doesn't deserve an entire Kalax cube to itself. Shelf space is precious!
I looked at this on KS and drooled as I love the miniatures and the theme. I came very close to backing but in the end didn't as I suspected the gameplay would not be strong. I am always wary of games that put a lot of emphasis on production value as much of the cost would go on cosmetics.
I get that the production of the game elevates the experience, but what experience are you elevating? an abstract tile laying/polyomino placing game with a "river market" of cards? If I am going to pay triple digits for a board game mostly because of plastic, it's going to be a grandiose, epic game, or at least a very thematic game, where the miniatures will be put to good use. This is the equivalent of making miniatures for every card in Machi Koro. This is 90% a toy/collector's item and 10% a strategy board game, and it's most definitely NOT worth it's price point. It reminds me of the giant Takenoko, or the collector's edition of Small World. If you really love those games and you want to have a deluxe, premium edition of those games you can, but you don't need to. And you can pay $35-$50 for the same gameplay. This is the epitome of unnecessary.
The opening is not suppoed to be facing up when you put the lid on. Got my game today. The opening was not up, no pieces fell anywhere. All ready to play.
I was seriously thinking about backing the relaunch, but for me Chris is right. What a daunting prospect it would be to own a game that size and that's coming from someone who has backed several large all-in games. But even those are broke into boxes a third the size of this. Maybe I can convince someone in my game group it's the perfect game for them. And thanks for spinning the box, that was valuable perspective information.
You're not supposed to store it so that everything is on it's side. It's supposed to all stay horizontal. Would definitely not have th epips fall out as much or at all if they weren't tipped over. That said, super glue.
While this game looks lovely, I'm not sure it does anything that many other tile placement games already do in a far smaller footprint at a lower price. I could see owning a version of this with tiles for the city pieces and minis for the monuments, but I'm not paying $150 for a very overproduced game. I think as consumers we have to also consider the greater impact a game like this has on the environment in regards to manufacturing and shipping costs. How many of those big boxes will fit in a container? How much does it cost to transport over 8000 copies across the water and from the distribution hubs? How much plastic was used in the production of all of those components? And that's not even getting into the socioeconomic issues of manufacturing a product in China. I think board gamers need to consider how our hobby impacts the world around us and be better stewards. Chris kind of touched on it with his commentary, but I feel like he didn't really get to the heart of how can one recommend such a large and overproduced game when something like Hansa Teutonica or Root exists with a smaller, more affordable footprint and likely has less of an impact.
For me I am not willing to give up a whole kallax cube (4 or 5 games) for a good game with only an hour playtime. If I had more space I would maybe consider something like this but that box right there is 4 Lacerdas.
Interesting perspective, but if I play a game 4-5 times more (game play length wise, not just # of plays) than all the other games in that same physical kallax cube space, then you better believe I will find room for it :).
you could buy Emerson's entire catelogue for less than this game, and it would fit only half a kalax shelf with certain games like Spectre Ops consolidated (I checked)
@@TheDarktater agreed…I am counting on this one being that. I had a ton of fun playing on TTS a couple times and I think it could be one of my most played games every year.
I would like to play this, but as a theoretical purchase this seems insane on almost every level. It's a Twilight Imperium scale box for essentially a tile layer that plays in under an hour? That seems more than a little nuts. As a $40-$60 mostly cardboard game this would probably be pretty cool. For $100-$160 and you're gonna eat up an entire shelf plus incredibly inconvenient to get to a game night it's hard to imagine this justifying its own existence frankly.
I'm still trying to figure out what is daunting. This is such an easy game to set up. Ark Nova could justifiably be labelled daunting. Certainly Brass Birmingham is a brilliant game, but daunting to set up and manage pieces. This is a big game but it's not daunting at all. It's a lightweight game. As far as labeling this as overproduced, I feel that is doing a disservice to the hobby. This is a wonderfully produced game, that shames many expensive and under produced games.
You're absolutely right that it shuns many games that are bloat and no substance. The substance of the game is great, but for me, the pieces get in the way. Very often I see people standing up to be able to see the board state, see if they have a control marker hidden behind a giant building that generates two coins. Or standing to count how many adjacent buildings of a type are next to one of their structures. On top of that, the shelf space and table space it takes is enormous. It's a factor of all those things, and clearly it's to taste since someone else in the review gave it an 11 out of 10, and it made a million dollars on its first crowdfunding campaign. But, if feel disingenuous if I hadn't reviewed it the way I did. Thanks for watching, and it's cool that you enjoy the game.
Any reviewer who not only doesn't give a shit about price point but also actively turns their nose up at it doesn't have an opinion worth listening to. It is wild that this isn't a deluxe edition for this light a game. Not having a standard edition that is accessible to the average person was an enormous overstep by the publisher.
Completely disagree. It is not up to the reviewer to make assumptions about individuals budgets and spending habits. Even a $50 game to some is too expensive, better to stay out of making assumptions about people. Present the game qnd people can decide for themselves.
@@dannykdri no, but it is for the reviewer to analyze critically whether the cost of the game is reasonable for the experience it provides, as they did with Cleopatra for instance. In fact, Tom is NORMALLY extremely critical of games for being "bigger than the experience". It is not a good precedent for the hobby that simple games like this are produced to involve as much plastic as possible in order to inflate the price as much as possible in order to increase the likely profit made. This is relevant for any viewer and doesn't need to infer the wealth of the viewer.
If there weren’t a lot of options for gamers to choose from in this hobby, then I’d be more inclined to agree. But there are. I don’t blame anyone for saying “nope, too expensive for me” but I don’t see why that would make this bad for the hobby when that person has literally thousands of alternatives to turn to. This game was designed to be exclusive, so the fact that not everyone can have is actually ‘mission accomplished’. But a reviewer can’t effectively quantify the value a game has to the audience because 1) any game’s value will be entirely subjective from one player to another, and 2) $100 might be fine for one and unacceptable to another. SU&SD’s review of Rococo Deluxe was as close as I’d ever want to see from a reviewer, simply because they highlighted the cost but didn’t let it influence their overall review. Conversely, Chris Yi’s overall opinion was heavily influenced by the production, and while I understand his perspective (I think), I disagreed with his conclusion. Fortunately, he explained it well enough that it doesn’t influence me that much, since his concerns aren’t something that bother me.
@@dannykdri What a weird quirk that seems exclusive to this hobby. Can you imagine a car reviewer not mentioning price, if Kia started selling cars at the price of a Ferrari but they were little more than a Rio with a sweet paint job?
This is going to look and play awesome when it arrives for backers. It's too bad this won't hit retail or if there was a smaller version available for the masses because the gameplay is excellent having played on TTS. Not sure if future expansions are in the works or not, but with the different modules already available, and given the amount of player interaction, I can't see this one getting old for quite some time. A staple in the collection for sure!
I'm glad that I got to watch this review, and would agree with Chris that it looks way to big (and way to expensive) for me. I am not against big games, nor am I against expensive games. It's just that, with limits on my budget and board gaming opportunities, I have to draw the line somewhere. Thank you, Chris, for your honest opinion on this game.
3 things making it a no-no for me: - I know it's a drop of water in an ocean of plastics we use on a regular basis, but if I'm told disposable plastic bags / straws/ q-tips / cutlery / glasses are banned, I don't want to buy a giant pile of plastic when it could be something else (I don't own a 3D printer for the same reason). - it's actually really not beautiful to me, those greyish buildings looking like pieces from a toy made 50-60 years ago... really not a fan. But I don't know any such games I like aesthetically (I don't like Santorini, neither My City, Skyliners, High Rise, Ginkgopolis...) except maybe latest edition of Suburbia and it's perfectly fine that it's just cardboard tiles. - In countries or cities where you move by foot or bike or metro, like it should be (not taking a huge car to go next door and buy milk or bread), how do you deal with this game? You leave it at home and hope your friends will come to you each time you want to play?
I seriously doubt the game is good / deep enough for the size of the box. That box takes size of 5 normal sized games. Is this better than those 5 games to warrant the space it takes? Doubt it. I would never be taking this to game nights, and I don't want it to take the said space. A prime example of a game which is so overproduced that it just becomes a detriment.
I love big chunky KS productions, this game doesn't look like it deserves the treatment it got. Way too simple and basic. I have to agree with Yi. This should be a small box card tiles game at about $20 for it to be an 'essential'
i think the game is awesome and the production is just right. is the box ludicrous? yes. is it easy to travel with? no. but i agree i can have a game night which this is the only game. for noobs you're going to want to play twice at least and the game takes only about an hour to play.
My thoughts: The board is a major turn off. The production quality is amazing and in 2019 I’d be tempted to buy this. Given current real world economics though, the gaming hobby is going to take hard hits and I think a game this expensive is going to be one of those things hit.
Your argument on whether this is overproduced or not could have been solved by just asking "over what?"... Over the game mechanics necessity? Yes Over the functional necessity? Probably yes, but maybe... Over the selling point requirement? No What's the definition of overproduced? Which one? All of them?!
I really like the game design, and I'm sure I would have a great time playing this game, but I will never buy this. It's too big, too expensive, and it simply occupies too much of my gaming inventory space. A cardboard tile version of this game would be great. I would buy it and really enjoy it, even with some miniatures for the monuments. But as it is, it's too much.
The gameplay of New York 1901, the market of Suburbia, and the quick flow of Century. Yet you could buy all three of those for less money than this one box, have much more interesting games with more replayability, and combined they'd take up less room on your shelf. They'd also fill a whole game night, where as this is done in 45mins? What an absolutely pointless product.
@@Draffut2003 I dont think it's jealously - most of the commentors are sharing a similar thought, and im sure many are sitting next to a similar literal wall of kickstarter big box games that I am - it's that this review, Chris aside, does not feel like a truly critical analysis of the product.
I backed the base game but now I regret not getting the Monuments expansion. I wonder if there will be any possible way to get it (besides the dreaded eBay)?
I think I'd fall somewhere in the range of Chris's rating. The game itself just wouldn't offer me enough to play long term. The components would definitely attract me to the game if I saw it setup and I'd try it at least a few times. The only negative I have about the city building aspect of it, and this carries over into other games, is that I don't particularly like the "buildings randomly placed on a grid" idea. As beautiful as the buildings are, when they are simply smacked down on a square grid, it doesn't translate into me feeling like I'm building a city. It doesn't look like a nicely designed city that I had a hand in creating, just a mishmash of plastic buildings with no thought, order, or aesthetic appeal put into it. This is probably just an issue with board games in general; it's hard to carry-over that city building feeling you can have with video games (like SimCity) into the board game sphere.
I would rather make a diy cardboard version for myself than buy it. It is really sad because I would probably buy a simplified version of this game with only the monuments as miniatures. They missed out on a lot of buyers with the overproduction and the price.
There is now way I am hauling this around nor BUYING a game that expensive. I cannot justify that price point, and if people can, then they got really lucky to make it well through the pandemic.
This is the epitome of what’s wrong with the current board gaming industry and why I’ve been drawn away from it a little bit. A $30 mediocre game with a $200 skin for the fomo crowd who prefers pretty miniatures over brilliance designs
What would be a brilliantly designed game? Sure, FoR is a very decent polyomino game, yes it is overproduced. Are there better polyomino games? Sure. Are there more overproduced games? Probably. Do those take away from the fact that FoR is a very good game? Not really. Any hobby is expensive and board games isn't an exception. Where I come from the average price for a game is about 2000-3000 local currency. I bought this one for about 40000 local currency. Is it expensive? Yes. Would I recommend it to anyone? Hell no, 40000 local currency is median salary here. Not all products will be enjoyed by everyone, it is what it is.
@@crossrhodes14 I don’t disagree with anything you said here. However I don’t think it undermines my point that the deluxification trend has reached a point where it borders insanity. As a result the design qualify will inevitably suffer since publishers realize that throwing their limited $$$ at big minis and deluxe components will make them quick bucks.
@@tonyl2087 Overwhelming majority of games are still about 25-45$ pricetag. Kickstarter games aren't and weren't ever made for everyone. Cthulhu wars, most CMON games, Foundations of Rome were only possible because of kickstarter. And games have been improving mechanically as well, not just in visual aspect. Games by John D Clair are innovative e.g., stuff like Ankh , Cthulhu DMD, Feed the Kraken are all really good games mechanically, and they were only possible, again, because of Kickstarter.
I feel like I have the Big City Anniversary edition and I dont need this because they are pretty similar. I wish the Big City buildings looked as good as this though. This looks a bit more streamlined and less math-y than Big City.
Anyone complaining about the product should also complain about 80% of all CMON games. Think of it as an heirloom game. There are several optional rules modules that will definitely amp up the decision space. I am pretty sure this will be in future top 10's. Including top 10 over produced, but it will be awesome.
I do complain about 80% of CMON games being overproduced. I find the concept of selling an heirloom edition of an untested game to be odd, and yet somehow a kickstarter staple. It may be my "Old man yells at cloud" view.
I respect Chris's views based on his personal belief's and the courage to admit that. I believe it is overdone and I had the opportunity to purchase the emperor's pledge and I jumped at the chance because the production is over the top. To me it is a collector's item and if you can afford it why not. People collect cars and fill garages with them and never drive them, now that's a real waste because I will play this game and enjoy it.
I agree with her 100% if it was a tile game I wouldn’t play it. The fact that it’s “over produce” makes me wanna play it because the monuments stand out. Can’t wait to get it
Which is only an argument if you don't have to pay for the game. Base game 100 bucks for a game that has less gameplay than some small box games makes this at least questionable.
I am sceptical this game will win any awards nor will it be remembered in a few years. Not saying it is a bad game, but certainly odd that a simple tile laying game is presumptuous enough to assume it is so good to be deluxified right from the start
Just re-watched this review to help me decide on backing the relaunch. Ultimately, the talk about over-production decided for me - I backed the game. I have a few $200+ games that have awesome minis, but I never play them. When I say never, I mean NEVER. They sit in their box, nice and pretty, and way too much of a time commitment to learn and play. Most often, I'm having some drinks and need something lightweight to play and it's a shame that I never get to show off my high priced games. I'm hoping this one gives me a chance to show off an "over" produced game rather than just another nice set of plastic sitting on my shelf.
I am just not getting this just for the size and costs…I don’t think the gameplay is that new…there are similar games that I believe can do much better with the costs…the new kickstarter with the expansion is $200…oh my world
@@thedicetower That’s well and good, but if he could dial things back a bit, stay on topic and let others offer their opinions without interrupting, it would make the video much more watchable. As it stands, I tend to skip the videos he features in because he’s so exhausting. When I’m looking for a review of a game, having Jar Jar Binks bouncing off the walls the whole time is not what I want to see. Please just stop.
Years from now: "So, Chris, tell us how you got fired from the Dice Tower..."
Seriously, though, my respect for Chris and the Dice Tower has grown. It's essentially a company sponsored game and yet one of their employees says, "I cannot humanly recommend anyone buy this game." Way to show integrity!
The trays should be pulled from the side. Not from the top. So Tom’s only nitpick is thanks to incorrect storrage …
What are these? Monuments for ants? The buildings have to be at least... three times bigger than these!
'I cannot humanly recommend this to another person' is one of my favourite new statements that I shall use in the future for sure!!
This game was annotated to backers as this is a "Kickstarter release only" from the start. The game was made to be a big production and loses some of the grandeur of city building if the buildings were not there.
Most of us backers know this is KS only. I even waited a couple days backing to confirm am I willing to pay more for the look of a roman city on my playmat. It is the first time I balked at not immediately buying an Emerson Matsuuchi game.
I like that Chris give his concerns about over scaling of production value and rates the game a 6.5, (pssst never get into Warhammer). But also Camilla states it would be a bland tile placement game and gives it a 7.5. Part of the fun of these reviews are with 4 people you can compare why this team of people we love to watch give their perspective on games and then assign a score.
There will always be games that people like while at the same time that you or I will not like. And it is refreshing that the DT crew can honestly tell us why they don't like something, and hopefully without reprisal from the Internet.
sensing a bit of tension between Tom and Steven lol
I just saw this - great discussion. I didn't back the game because of the production. If this game was available as tile it would be an instabuy. I hope they make a retail version that has some special buildings as plastic but is predominantly tiles. Looks great on the table as this monstrosity - that novelty wears off after a few plays.
I feel Chris on his review. I don't think these reviews should just be game is fun or game is not fun. Need to consider how much it costs, how much space it takes up, and the other factors that go into buying a game or not. If the components could be cheaper and more compact with little detriment, I think it's valid to question why it wasn't done that way. It seems like one he'd recommend playing if you get the opportunity, but couldn't recommend you buying unless you really value the form factor and I appreciate that sentiment.
I agree with Chris, this Game is for conventions but I will never own this overly produced game that it’s mechanism seem too simple for such a huge box.
Great review
it's like going to a high end restaurant. A bite size portion of food is served on a 12-inch plate.
this is everything i hate about Kickstarter culture. i don't want gaming to become like golf
Board gaming would never "become" this. This is an exclusive product, specifically for consumer that want an amazingly produced one
Become like golf? You mean, where the lower the score the better? 😉
@@Polovene the reality is that i can't play that game and the main reason is monetary. I for one believe that game design is art and art should be disseminate not gate kept.
@@davidtronche875 cry about it lmao
99% of the comments are what I hate about most gamers. Play it or don’t. Fussing and fretting over a board game is silly.
I wozld love to have the option to buy a tile based version of the game in retail. And have the option to update to deluxe if I want to. I often update to deluxe with games I love. but its not nessecary for every game. For me it has the same problem as Era, which was so overproduced for a Roll and Write game. And the yellow board looked awful. If I would buy a deluxe game it should look like Foundations of Rome!
I agree with you on Foundations, though I got Era brand new for a pretty cheap price and it is only 1/3rd the size so I'm not sure that comparison fully holds. Ironically, I'm with Yi for this game, but I would never play Era as a roll and write.
I would recommend trying New York 1910 or Acquire. They might scratch that itch for far less money.
Good news! Foundations of Metropolis is now a thing, which is basically the same game but in a Ticket to Ride size box.
I'm so excited to get my copy in a month or two. It's a grand experience that can be played in a short amount of time and will hit the table more often because of that.
So my understanding of the "Dicetower Essential" range/branding is that it is a game that Dicetower thinks everyone should own, am I right? If that is the case how can you label a kickstarter exclusive game that is not coming to retail as part of this range? Am I just not understanding what the "essential" label represents?
That used to be a thing, but apparently not here.
I was asking myself the same question. I don't even see the point of reviewing something that's Kickstarter Exclusive, because IMHO conceptually all that could be done for something like that is a preview. What's the point of having a review of something that cannot ever be bought again?
Then again: In my opinion reviews are there for the purpose of making informed purchase decisions. Maybe some people only watch them to feel better about things they already bought?
It was given a seal of excellence, not essentials. Different things
@@12345678abracadabra No it is actually part of the Dice Tower Essentials line and it received a seal of excellence two separate and different things.
Yeah if definitely degrades the label/brand of their seal.
See a lot of comments about making this just a tile laying game, which I get the point if trying to hit the mass market audience but the game pieces/buildings get picked up from the board frequently during the game play. I think it would be difficult to do this if they were flat tiles.
Terra Mystica did distinct buildings from a player board that tells you their info. If this were much smaller, I would look into it.
I went back to watch how the new Cleopatra production was reviewed. Interesting. This review would probably have been better with someone who is more critical of overproductions for the game underneath, like Zee for instance, to have supported Chris. I love Emerson, but I think they did him dirty with this production because if the GAME is as good as said - plastic aside, this looks like a pretty basic tilelayer - most people will never experience it because it is unnecessarily big and, as a result, unnecessarily expensive.
also, I wish Bonocaure would stop interrupting and then railroading people with childish antics. every review it is the same. have some class, man. edit: I do recognise that he could be so much worse without Tom reigning him in all the time
I 100% agree with your comment about Bounocore. I don't know if that's the persona he chooses to become when in front of a camera, or if he really behaves like that around his friends, but he comes across as very unlikeable.
I'm so happy Chris was here to voice his opinion. Not a huge fan of the smaller guy's personality.
It's always fun reading about people not wanting to buy a game that's sold out everywhere.
Well there is an active Kickstarter going on for a second printing of it. That could be what they're referring to.
I'm waiting for the Oink version I can put in my pocket.
The oink version would be a box of matches, and it would be called the post-Nero expansion.
I was going to found this last year but then I saw the price, my jaw dropped to the floor and unhappily passed on it. Way to rich for my blood.
Not sure who the size of the game is for. As someone getting deeper into the hobby, I cant justify the shelf-space, because i know there will be so much more coming i want to fit-- and if someone like me who has a ton of shelves dedicated to board games isn't the person this is for.. then who? the size of this isn't going to be what someone new to the hobby will pick up.
People who love minis above all else. The game is gorgeous, no doubt. But other than that, I agree.
For me, with a collection over 100+ games now, I am looking for very specific games that have an impressive/unique table presence with replayable, interactive, and strategic gameplay experiences that I can table with my family AND my gaming groups. The storage/setup/teardown for this game sealed the deal for me to back it because I want it to be a quick and simple process.
If this was produced just as a tile laying game I would want to play it some day but never buy it. I would probably forget about it to be honest. I want fewer games in my collection that I can play over and over while still delivering an outrageous experience in all facets.
@@KingMePlease3 do you think if this was scaled down, but still had pretty miniatures it would devalue it for you?
@@daviblight if it was a little smaller I probably wouldn’t care, but I would want to be able to see those player markers on each building clearly on the board without having to stand up the entire game along with being able to pick up each building easily without knocking pieces over. Hard for me to say scaling down a little or not at all without having the physical game yet.
The overproduction debate here seems to boil down to what perspective you are coming from in terms of defining what overproduction means.
From what I hear from their reviews this feels like a very accessible game that has been made inaccessible to some extent via its grand production and KS exclusivity. I think it hits the mark in what they were setting out to create, but based on the gameplay experience the game could achieve a similar result with a lot less and personally I think that makes it overproduced.
Maybe Tiny towns achieves similar results for a cheaper price.
If it wasn’t the way it looked, it would be good but forgotten immediately with all the other great polyomino games we have available.
Just do a push-up every so often. A board game shouldn’t threaten you.
So much respect for Chris on this one. It does look amazing and I'm sure it's fun but my god it's just too much for what it is.
Now that I have my copy of the game, I agree that the game is very overproduces for what is a welcoming game that is slightly more complex than Century Spice Road. If they wanted to do something more than tiles, they could have gone the route of Era. That has buildings that are smaller so the box size and footprint would be more reasonable.
Games with this level of production are usually reserved for incredibly mechanically complex games. It’s nice to have a big game for people who prefer easy-to-play, quick games but still want to experience those crazy production levels.
I think it would be perfectly fun as a tile game. And at least 1/4th the price and size. It's baffling to me the publisher didn't make a tile version for the mass market. The folks super into minis could get this version. Everyone is happy.
Was just at Gen Con, they have a more accessible tile version, but side by side it doesn't even seem worth it
The thing is that the overproduction is put to good use. You could easy shrink that box 50 percent with the same plastic buildings but they made everything so its minimal setup and maximum convenience with the trays.. Saying the game is too pricey and has too much plastic could be said for 90 percent of KS and GF campaigns too. They were very upfront that this game would be KS only because of the cost and desire to include the components they did. It was marketed to people who seek this kind of thing. I think Camilla got it pretty spot on that just about anyone can play this one and if you dig the theme more than her its not going to be a bad buy to have in your collection.
I am in same boat
Such a weird argument for overproduction. You seen cmon? You seen awaken realms?
Would it be great if this game had a carton only version for retail? Certainly. Does it take away from the fact that this is an excellent city building game? Not at all. And those miniatures? Sign me up. Good game becomes better with good minis is what I think.
This can't be worth the space on the shelf, at least for me.
I 100% agree with Chris. I’m not against giant, lavish productions for those who want them, but to take a game that seems like it could appeal to a broad audience and then decide not even to make a ‘regular’ version is disappointing.
i.d.k. I would consider buying it as it is. Simply because my thoughts on games is that having a few really blinged out games beats having loads of games that are just sub par.
I'm genuinely surprised by Chris' comments. Not that he made them, but I honestly thought he would say it was down to the amount of needless plastic in the game/environmental issues.
Foundations of Rome is one of those games I want to play but have no desire to own. That box is obnoxiously big and doesn't deserve an entire Kalax cube to itself. Shelf space is precious!
I looked at this on KS and drooled as I love the miniatures and the theme. I came very close to backing but in the end didn't as I suspected the gameplay would not be strong. I am always wary of games that put a lot of emphasis on production value as much of the cost would go on cosmetics.
not sure if this game deserves a review since its only for kickstarter backers and won't come to retail.
This game has the greatest rulebook I've ever seen.. they should do a top ten awful/great rulebooks !!! Plz.. for these publishers to learn!
I get that the production of the game elevates the experience, but what experience are you elevating? an abstract tile laying/polyomino placing game with a "river market" of cards? If I am going to pay triple digits for a board game mostly because of plastic, it's going to be a grandiose, epic game, or at least a very thematic game, where the miniatures will be put to good use.
This is the equivalent of making miniatures for every card in Machi Koro. This is 90% a toy/collector's item and 10% a strategy board game, and it's most definitely NOT worth it's price point.
It reminds me of the giant Takenoko, or the collector's edition of Small World. If you really love those games and you want to have a deluxe, premium edition of those games you can, but you don't need to. And you can pay $35-$50 for the same gameplay. This is the epitome of unnecessary.
The opening is not suppoed to be facing up when you put the lid on. Got my game today. The opening was not up, no pieces fell anywhere. All ready to play.
I got my copy today. I bought it _because_ of the production.
I was seriously thinking about backing the relaunch, but for me Chris is right. What a daunting prospect it would be to own a game that size and that's coming from someone who has backed several large all-in games. But even those are broke into boxes a third the size of this. Maybe I can convince someone in my game group it's the perfect game for them. And thanks for spinning the box, that was valuable perspective information.
A tile version would be better, and sell more I imagine..
Like comparing a lamborghini to a ford :)
You're not supposed to store it so that everything is on it's side. It's supposed to all stay horizontal. Would definitely not have th epips fall out as much or at all if they weren't tipped over. That said, super glue.
Not every game has to be a tiny squirt gun - some people want a Super Soaker.
While this game looks lovely, I'm not sure it does anything that many other tile placement games already do in a far smaller footprint at a lower price. I could see owning a version of this with tiles for the city pieces and minis for the monuments, but I'm not paying $150 for a very overproduced game. I think as consumers we have to also consider the greater impact a game like this has on the environment in regards to manufacturing and shipping costs. How many of those big boxes will fit in a container? How much does it cost to transport over 8000 copies across the water and from the distribution hubs? How much plastic was used in the production of all of those components? And that's not even getting into the socioeconomic issues of manufacturing a product in China. I think board gamers need to consider how our hobby impacts the world around us and be better stewards. Chris kind of touched on it with his commentary, but I feel like he didn't really get to the heart of how can one recommend such a large and overproduced game when something like Hansa Teutonica or Root exists with a smaller, more affordable footprint and likely has less of an impact.
For me I am not willing to give up a whole kallax cube (4 or 5 games) for a good game with only an hour playtime. If I had more space I would maybe consider something like this but that box right there is 4 Lacerdas.
Interesting perspective, but if I play a game 4-5 times more (game play length wise, not just # of plays) than all the other games in that same physical kallax cube space, then you better believe I will find room for it :).
@@KingMePlease3 it would have to be a spectacular game to give it that much space and get rid of 4 other games.
you could buy Emerson's entire catelogue for less than this game, and it would fit only half a kalax shelf with certain games like Spectre Ops consolidated (I checked)
@@TheDarktater agreed…I am counting on this one being that. I had a ton of fun playing on TTS a couple times and I think it could be one of my most played games every year.
@@KingMePlease3 then it would be worth it!
I would consider it if they'd make a second edition in a smaller box. Required shelf space is a large factor for me these days?
My wife loves Ancient Rome, and this game will be worth it simply for the look on her face when she opens up the box.
But there are literally dozens of better games set in Rome
I would like to play this, but as a theoretical purchase this seems insane on almost every level. It's a Twilight Imperium scale box for essentially a tile layer that plays in under an hour? That seems more than a little nuts. As a $40-$60 mostly cardboard game this would probably be pretty cool. For $100-$160 and you're gonna eat up an entire shelf plus incredibly inconvenient to get to a game night it's hard to imagine this justifying its own existence frankly.
I'm still trying to figure out what is daunting. This is such an easy game to set up. Ark Nova could justifiably be labelled daunting. Certainly Brass Birmingham is a brilliant game, but daunting to set up and manage pieces. This is a big game but it's not daunting at all. It's a lightweight game. As far as labeling this as overproduced, I feel that is doing a disservice to the hobby. This is a wonderfully produced game, that shames many expensive and under produced games.
You're absolutely right that it shuns many games that are bloat and no substance. The substance of the game is great, but for me, the pieces get in the way. Very often I see people standing up to be able to see the board state, see if they have a control marker hidden behind a giant building that generates two coins. Or standing to count how many adjacent buildings of a type are next to one of their structures. On top of that, the shelf space and table space it takes is enormous. It's a factor of all those things, and clearly it's to taste since someone else in the review gave it an 11 out of 10, and it made a million dollars on its first crowdfunding campaign. But, if feel disingenuous if I hadn't reviewed it the way I did. Thanks for watching, and it's cool that you enjoy the game.
I agree w chris yi. I like emerson's games. But this is too much.
I agree with Chris, which is why I canceled my pledge and I'm glad I did. Should have been a simple tile laying game that cost $40.
Any reviewer who not only doesn't give a shit about price point but also actively turns their nose up at it doesn't have an opinion worth listening to. It is wild that this isn't a deluxe edition for this light a game. Not having a standard edition that is accessible to the average person was an enormous overstep by the publisher.
Completely disagree. It is not up to the reviewer to make assumptions about individuals budgets and spending habits.
Even a $50 game to some is too expensive, better to stay out of making assumptions about people. Present the game qnd people can decide for themselves.
@@dannykdri no, but it is for the reviewer to analyze critically whether the cost of the game is reasonable for the experience it provides, as they did with Cleopatra for instance. In fact, Tom is NORMALLY extremely critical of games for being "bigger than the experience". It is not a good precedent for the hobby that simple games like this are produced to involve as much plastic as possible in order to inflate the price as much as possible in order to increase the likely profit made. This is relevant for any viewer and doesn't need to infer the wealth of the viewer.
If there weren’t a lot of options for gamers to choose from in this hobby, then I’d be more inclined to agree. But there are. I don’t blame anyone for saying “nope, too expensive for me” but I don’t see why that would make this bad for the hobby when that person has literally thousands of alternatives to turn to. This game was designed to be exclusive, so the fact that not everyone can have is actually ‘mission accomplished’.
But a reviewer can’t effectively quantify the value a game has to the audience because 1) any game’s value will be entirely subjective from one player to another, and 2) $100 might be fine for one and unacceptable to another.
SU&SD’s review of Rococo Deluxe was as close as I’d ever want to see from a reviewer, simply because they highlighted the cost but didn’t let it influence their overall review. Conversely, Chris Yi’s overall opinion was heavily influenced by the production, and while I understand his perspective (I think), I disagreed with his conclusion. Fortunately, he explained it well enough that it doesn’t influence me that much, since his concerns aren’t something that bother me.
@@dannykdri What a weird quirk that seems exclusive to this hobby. Can you imagine a car reviewer not mentioning price, if Kia started selling cars at the price of a Ferrari but they were little more than a Rio with a sweet paint job?
This is going to look and play awesome when it arrives for backers. It's too bad this won't hit retail or if there was a smaller version available for the masses because the gameplay is excellent having played on TTS. Not sure if future expansions are in the works or not, but with the different modules already available, and given the amount of player interaction, I can't see this one getting old for quite some time. A staple in the collection for sure!
This seems simpler than the size would imply. I like that.
I'm glad that I got to watch this review, and would agree with Chris that it looks way to big (and way to expensive) for me. I am not against big games, nor am I against expensive games. It's just that, with limits on my budget and board gaming opportunities, I have to draw the line somewhere. Thank you, Chris, for your honest opinion on this game.
Your game trays are supposed to come out the side not the top.. that’s why those markers are falling out
Should have done a component drop, just for old times' sake.
Lol
This production is as ludicrous as the special edition of Castles of Burgundy. The perfect example of how form takes over from content.
This felt like a very awkward review :P
3 things making it a no-no for me:
- I know it's a drop of water in an ocean of plastics we use on a regular basis, but if I'm told disposable plastic bags / straws/ q-tips / cutlery / glasses are banned, I don't want to buy a giant pile of plastic when it could be something else (I don't own a 3D printer for the same reason).
- it's actually really not beautiful to me, those greyish buildings looking like pieces from a toy made 50-60 years ago... really not a fan. But I don't know any such games I like aesthetically (I don't like Santorini, neither My City, Skyliners, High Rise, Ginkgopolis...) except maybe latest edition of Suburbia and it's perfectly fine that it's just cardboard tiles.
- In countries or cities where you move by foot or bike or metro, like it should be (not taking a huge car to go next door and buy milk or bread), how do you deal with this game? You leave it at home and hope your friends will come to you each time you want to play?
I seriously doubt the game is good / deep enough for the size of the box. That box takes size of 5 normal sized games. Is this better than those 5 games to warrant the space it takes? Doubt it. I would never be taking this to game nights, and I don't want it to take the said space. A prime example of a game which is so overproduced that it just becomes a detriment.
You could have this in a tiny travel box for one tenth the cost, in cardboard. The game looks great, though.
The game you are referring to is called Acquire ;)
Always happy when I see Chris is included in a four squares. Would love to see more Wendy as well.
After having played this game in person, its easy to carry in a board game bag.
I love big chunky KS productions, this game doesn't look like it deserves the treatment it got. Way too simple and basic. I have to agree with Yi. This should be a small box card tiles game at about $20 for it to be an 'essential'
Getting serious Michael Douglas vibes here. Great review, great energy!
Will Vernon Piper be posting video of his painted set, or some of the painted sets? I'd love some inspiration for painting my copy when it comes.
i think the game is awesome and the production is just right. is the box ludicrous? yes. is it easy to travel with? no. but i agree i can have a game night which this is the only game. for noobs you're going to want to play twice at least and the game takes only about an hour to play.
Take Two!
My thoughts: The board is a major turn off. The production quality is amazing and in 2019 I’d be tempted to buy this. Given current real world economics though, the gaming hobby is going to take hard hits and I think a game this expensive is going to be one of those things hit.
I feel like I backed this game on Kickstarter 5 years ago..
Your argument on whether this is overproduced or not could have been solved by just asking "over what?"...
Over the game mechanics necessity? Yes
Over the functional necessity? Probably yes, but maybe...
Over the selling point requirement? No
What's the definition of overproduced? Which one? All of them?!
I really like the game design, and I'm sure I would have a great time playing this game, but I will never buy this. It's too big, too expensive, and it simply occupies too much of my gaming inventory space. A cardboard tile version of this game would be great. I would buy it and really enjoy it, even with some miniatures for the monuments. But as it is, it's too much.
The gameplay of New York 1901, the market of Suburbia, and the quick flow of Century. Yet you could buy all three of those for less money than this one box, have much more interesting games with more replayability, and combined they'd take up less room on your shelf. They'd also fill a whole game night, where as this is done in 45mins? What an absolutely pointless product.
Don't have to be so jealous that you don't have a copy.
@@Draffut2003 I dont think it's jealously - most of the commentors are sharing a similar thought, and im sure many are sitting next to a similar literal wall of kickstarter big box games that I am - it's that this review, Chris aside, does not feel like a truly critical analysis of the product.
I backed the base game but now I regret not getting the Monuments expansion. I wonder if there will be any possible way to get it (besides the dreaded eBay)?
I think I'd fall somewhere in the range of Chris's rating. The game itself just wouldn't offer me enough to play long term. The components would definitely attract me to the game if I saw it setup and I'd try it at least a few times. The only negative I have about the city building aspect of it, and this carries over into other games, is that I don't particularly like the "buildings randomly placed on a grid" idea. As beautiful as the buildings are, when they are simply smacked down on a square grid, it doesn't translate into me feeling like I'm building a city. It doesn't look like a nicely designed city that I had a hand in creating, just a mishmash of plastic buildings with no thought, order, or aesthetic appeal put into it. This is probably just an issue with board games in general; it's hard to carry-over that city building feeling you can have with video games (like SimCity) into the board game sphere.
Make this an app and all of its problems go away - high price included.
I would rather make a diy cardboard version for myself than buy it. It is really sad because I would probably buy a simplified version of this game with only the monuments as miniatures. They missed out on a lot of buyers with the overproduction and the price.
Approved by Buonocore! It's a tank of a game and I love that about it. Glad I backed it and I'm looking forward to playing it in 2022!
There is now way I am hauling this around nor BUYING a game that expensive. I cannot justify that price point, and if people can, then they got really lucky to make it well through the pandemic.
This is the epitome of what’s wrong with the current board gaming industry and why I’ve been drawn away from it a little bit. A $30 mediocre game with a $200 skin for the fomo crowd who prefers pretty miniatures over brilliance designs
What would be a brilliantly designed game? Sure, FoR is a very decent polyomino game, yes it is overproduced. Are there better polyomino games? Sure. Are there more overproduced games? Probably. Do those take away from the fact that FoR is a very good game? Not really.
Any hobby is expensive and board games isn't an exception. Where I come from the average price for a game is about 2000-3000 local currency. I bought this one for about 40000 local currency. Is it expensive? Yes. Would I recommend it to anyone? Hell no, 40000 local currency is median salary here. Not all products will be enjoyed by everyone, it is what it is.
@@crossrhodes14 I don’t disagree with anything you said here. However I don’t think it undermines my point that the deluxification trend has reached a point where it borders insanity. As a result the design qualify will inevitably suffer since publishers realize that throwing their limited $$$ at big minis and deluxe components will make them quick bucks.
@@tonyl2087 Overwhelming majority of games are still about 25-45$ pricetag. Kickstarter games aren't and weren't ever made for everyone. Cthulhu wars, most CMON games, Foundations of Rome were only possible because of kickstarter. And games have been improving mechanically as well, not just in visual aspect. Games by John D Clair are innovative e.g., stuff like Ankh , Cthulhu DMD, Feed the Kraken are all really good games mechanically, and they were only possible, again, because of Kickstarter.
every time i see the logo for this game, i think of blue diamond almonds
"OVERPRODUCED!" but the little pieces don't exactly stay! ...def nitpicking at that point
I feel like I have the Big City Anniversary edition and I dont need this because they are pretty similar. I wish the Big City buildings looked as good as this though. This looks a bit more streamlined and less math-y than Big City.
How does this game compare to Lords of Vegas or Chinatown?
Too bad the Price was NOT an item in this review. 2nd kickstarter weny't live. Full option is 230 dollars
This one is an overproduced small game in a gigantic box.
Anyone complaining about the product should also complain about 80% of all CMON games. Think of it as an heirloom game. There are several optional rules modules that will definitely amp up the decision space. I am pretty sure this will be in future top 10's. Including top 10 over produced, but it will be awesome.
I do complain about 80% of CMON games being overproduced. I find the concept of selling an heirloom edition of an untested game to be odd, and yet somehow a kickstarter staple. It may be my "Old man yells at cloud" view.
I respect Chris's views based on his personal belief's and the courage to admit that. I believe it is overdone and I had the opportunity to purchase the emperor's pledge and I jumped at the chance because the production is over the top. To me it is a collector's item and if you can afford it why not. People collect cars and fill garages with them and never drive them, now that's a real waste because I will play this game and enjoy it.
If this is released with punch board polyominoes I will buy it. I would never play it with this much plastic.
I agree with her 100% if it was a tile game I wouldn’t play it. The fact that it’s “over produce” makes me wanna play it because the monuments stand out. Can’t wait to get it
Which is only an argument if you don't have to pay for the game. Base game 100 bucks for a game that has less gameplay than some small box games makes this at least questionable.
@@martinsonnleitner5516 if we add price, I 100% agree with you. Another conversation about how a lot of games are over value.
I am sceptical this game will win any awards nor will it be remembered in a few years. Not saying it is a bad game, but certainly odd that a simple tile laying game is presumptuous enough to assume it is so good to be deluxified right from the start
Just re-watched this review to help me decide on backing the relaunch. Ultimately, the talk about over-production decided for me - I backed the game. I have a few $200+ games that have awesome minis, but I never play them. When I say never, I mean NEVER. They sit in their box, nice and pretty, and way too much of a time commitment to learn and play. Most often, I'm having some drinks and need something lightweight to play and it's a shame that I never get to show off my high priced games. I'm hoping this one gives me a chance to show off an "over" produced game rather than just another nice set of plastic sitting on my shelf.
Didn't this get reviewed like a week ago?
Was part of the Winter Spectacular. DT is cutting up those long videos into shorter ones.
Their was me hoping we would get a roman version of ERA
Geez, lots of haters in this comment section…
So it’s a more elaborate New York 1901?
Steven would be great to promote a zombie board game.
I am just not getting this just for the size and costs…I don’t think the gameplay is that new…there are similar games that I believe can do much better with the costs…the new kickstarter with the expansion is $200…oh my world
But the box takes up so much space. :/
I don't really get it. Why is Steven so desperately trying to sell the game, if it won't be available in retail anyways?
He likes the game. He has no physical stake in the game. He just really likes it.
@@thedicetower That’s well and good, but if he could dial things back a bit, stay on topic and let others offer their opinions without interrupting, it would make the video much more watchable. As it stands, I tend to skip the videos he features in because he’s so exhausting. When I’m looking for a review of a game, having Jar Jar Binks bouncing off the walls the whole time is not what I want to see. Please just stop.