Steel frame more weight equals less recoil energy transfer to the shooters grip. No way around the physics at play. Very negligible improvement but it's still there to be sure. Polymer framed guns are lighter & carry easier on the body & that is a nice plus over the steel framed guns. bla bla bla. I will stick with my High Power & 1911 all being said.
@@c10wiremantawwallace13 everything you said is spot on and great advice for any new shooter. Life experience and an aging body however forces compromises. That’s why I now prefer lighter polymer frames and will be getting the new S&W bodyguard 2.0 this week.
@@Bar1putt I am no spring chicken either 62 now & steel has that feel of value I can't get away from. I really like my 2/3 size 380 acp 1911 by Browning that has a polymer frame for casual carry.
It really comes down to what feels good and works well with you. Every shooter has differences in their grip, muscle mass, overall body dimensions, eyesight, etc etc. you can't rely on mfg data. Stacatto claims their polymer frame absorbs and flexes to mitigate muzzle flip. Others say steel does this, or aluminum, or titanium or unobtainium.
Staccato frames are still steel with a polymer grip. It is the weight of the steel than makes the difference in absorbing the recoil. Grip, muscle mass, body dimensions, eye site etc will all be a constant when it comes to her testing unless she put on 20lbs between shoots.
hahahahaha good one! I think it’s a Warhammer or Cyberpunk reference, something about a cyborg rejecting the flesh for the metal. I see this quote everywhere on TH-cam.
One of the main points of a steel frame pistol is less muzzle flip, but the added weight makes transitions a tiny bit slower during USPSA type matches. I have a Rival and Rival S. I actually prefer my Rival setup better for matches since I mostly double tap each target based on the initial sight picture, then transition as fast as possible to the next target.
Truly outstanding video! Have wondered about this for decades, ever since my first Glock. My current three will be my last. Thank-You for your informative analysis. Please continue your excellent work!
You can have both is the same gun. Polymer for EDC, then for competition add a TLR-9 with tungsten’s batteries (10 oz), a brass or tungsten thug plug (3-5 ounces), tungsten guide rod (2ounces), brass baseplate (3ounces), etc….etc…. And you can add over a pound onto the gun for flatter shooting and softer recoil. That’s removable! Other types of weights are available too
I really, really want one of those PDP SF 4.5’s, but $1700 + tax + fees for a non-competition pistol?! I’ll spend the extra $1k on ammo and training. Maybe in a few years I’ll find a used one for closer to $1000. Until then, polymer it is. And Honestly, the PPQ 5” from a few years ago is an absolute laser beam. Flat, smooth, and comfy. I’ve never had any stock polymer pistol shooting better than that one.
I have regular PDP full size 4.5 polymer and love it. Would splurge on steel frame if it wasn't that pricey, I shoot PDP way better than my CZ 75 SP01.
I too have the elusive 4.5” PDP. Sometimes I carry the PDP slide with Holosun optic on my PPQ M1 frame. It fits perfectly in the PDP holster and prints less with the compact frame w 15 round mag.
I shoot the 4.5 polymer in competition. I use the Taylor freelance brass backstrap and a steel guide rod with 13# spring. I have a pack up that doesn’t have the brass backstrap. The 4ish total oz weight difference perceptively helps me.
I don't know the exact difference in weight but I will say, I shoot my x macro way better with the Icarus grip over the polymer! Maybe it's mind over matter but if that's the case it's worth it to me!
I just added the 4” PDP to my daily winter carry. And I love that gun. It’s very accurate for me and the trigger is so good for a striker fired platform. I was thinking about the metal frame for competition but a cheaper option would be to get the 4.5” or 5” barrel.
You are correct. There is a big difference between a "steel" frame and a "metal" frame. Metal could be either steel or aluminum. It would depend greatly on the individual pistol as to whether or not you get any difference in weight. I think smith and wesson has an M&P "metal" model that weighs the same as the polymer m&p. In that case, I'm not sure you would see any advantage other than maybe long-term durability.
I would also take my steel pdp or any steel firearm over a polymer version any day. At the end of the day practice with what you got. Also I hope you have got a long slide kit from zr tactical. What a game changer I’m recoil management. Plus there mag extensions as well for the steel pdp.
A heavier gun will have less recoil. Boils down to how heavy a gun do you want to carry? For competitions, weight doesn’t matter as much as it would for carry.
I love both, have nice 1911s and Aluminum frame P320 custom works guns and lot of tiny 365 / 365XLs and pocket guns. 365 polymer frame is much better hot summer days carrying in pocket, a really nice 1911 is sweet to shoot on the range. Thanks for the video !
Also, as an avid fan of old-school Trek bicycles, steel is generally far less rigid than aluminum. Which results in a smoother ride. An, although extremely minor, I suspect steel framed guns do dissipate and absorb the recoil better than aluminum. Definitely not as much as polymer. However, all things being equal, I think a steel framed gun would feel less jarring than an aluminum frame gun. But you'd need identical models with the same weight and size to tell. So it's just a theory on my part.
Yeah I have the aluminum frame for the zev and I would agree that if you do the aluminum without the weights it’s pretty pointless. Still working on my video to come but one thing to try is the lighter recoil spring or the dpm in the Walther as they are over spring from the factory and it really helps with recoil.
The difference is in materials. Tactical Toolbox was talking specifically about aluminum frame guns to polymer. Not steel. Steel guns shoot A LOT flatter and softer. Aluminum frames don’t really make a lot of difference. The perceived recoil impulse is sharper with aluminum frames vs polymer frames. At least in my testing. I’ve done it with sigs. My PDP Match SF vs my PDP 5” side by side is insanely different. You’re looking at maybe even less than half of the felt recoil. So I’m gonna go with the steel frame. I haven’t shot my polymer frame much since I got my Match SF 😂
It sometimes comes down to design. I own a PPQ. The balance is absolutely horrendous. I've added a brass backstrap just to pull the grip down and aid in some of the nose heaviness. (Mixed with the 19lb spring, its just not a very good design) so I'm sure with a glock or a design that manages recoil better inherently by design, doesn't need a steel frame. Where as a gun like a PDP, or M&P, or Canik get a marginal increase in control and performance. Its negligible unless you're an experienced shooter with the feel sensitivity close to Tiger Woods (who could feel a couple cotton balls difference in weight between 2 seemingly identical clubs) But all in all, you're an American, buy whatever you want and stop letting "content creators" dictate your purchasing. 🤷♂️
Wow this was very informative and well put together! Appreciate the content. I was an early 5” pdp adopter, and was thinking well sheesh, do I need to go steel or just be content with poly😖
I think it really depends on the gun. For a 1911/2011 with a high bore axis, a steel lower and grip makes a huge difference in how flat the gun shoots. For a Glock and most poly guns with a lower bore axis, I don't notice enough of a difference to justify the switch. As polymer does soak up a good bit of recoil thru flexing, a metal frame actually feels snappier to many people.
I have a PDP-F and the Q4 SF. I love both, but prefer shooting the F series more, although not because of steel vs. polymer, but because the F series fits my smaller hands better. Had it not been for that, I most certainly would be shooting the Q4 alot more.
I'm a big fan of the aftermarket aluminum grip modules for the p365 and p320 (specifically the Mischief Machine Commanders) It's not just a weight thing, though. The grip angle and texture okay a large role, too. In fact, the MM full size aluminum P320 is substantially LIGHTER than the Tungsten impregnated polymer X-Five grip module. But the aggressively textured grip panels and 2011/1911 grip angle give it a bit of an edge in shootability for me. I would love a steel version though...
I used to carry a Kimber Micro 9 Raptor which is a metal gun. It shot really nice and I love the gun, but I now use the p365 as my daily carry. The 17 red of the macro can’t be beat on such a small gun.
Excellent comparison. Thank you. Something I'd really like to see is a comparison of the Canik Rival polymer WITH THE BRASS BACKSTRAP compared to the Rival-S (steel frame). Can you get metal frame stability for less by putting a little brass on a equal polymer gun?
As someone who owns the Rival polymer with the brass backstrap, I have been told by others they prefer the feel of mine over a steel frame Rival. I have never shot one, nor do I care to. Happy with my setup.
Don't know if they have one for the 4.5" PDP SF. But ZR Tactical makes a long stroke guide rod and spring. The gun which already has a great return barely moves after putting in the long stroke guide rod. People like Velox Training Group and Tony3m really show the PDP SF at it's full capability.
You could run an interesting comparison by attaching enough weight to the baseplate of a magazine to normalize the weight between polymer and metal framed guns.
So, with regard to recoil, sure it may not be perceptive depending on how well both are made, but what steel brings is stability, they tend to recover faster, especially with less skill or grip strength. Polymer having its flex really helps it perform better though. There’s pros and cons as always, but this is why it’s important to get behind the guns as well as evaluate your needs
I appreciate the data point about the dot, but your times did not pose a statistically significant change. This illustrates that predictive shooting is about timing and control more than feedback from the sight.
I recognize the practicality of polymer guns for carry but metal guns just feel natural. A one-to-one test in the same family like the PDP or S&W M&P is a good test. A lot of reviewers will compare something like a Glock 19 to a Government 1911 and then say that the metal gun shoots flatter. Of course it does, a 1911 is like shooting on easy mode.
I have a 9mm S&W model 639 stainless. It's a beautiful gun and accurate. That said, I am going to trade it because it is too damn heavy to shoot for very long. About 2 lbs 4 oz. Compare that with say a Sig P365x which weighs about 1.1 lbs, the S&W is more than twice the weight.
I believe another consideration would be longevity. Does a poly frame degrade faster than metal or steel? I’d tend to think so. A consideration if you intend to pass on your guns…
I use the Icarus ace hybrid pro grip for my p365x, it’s aluminum and makes a hell of a difference over my polymer grip p365x. I’d rather carry a few extra oz. everyday and be more consistent with my shooting should the chance ever arise.
Polymer frame is ok with all aluminum trigger shoes / magwell / base plate / mag release. For lower muzzle flip, comp or port works. But metal frame is cooler like P365 Legion
They absolutely do make a difference, especially with muzzle flip. The metal frames have a noticeably lower muzzle flip than their polymer counterparts.
I use a steel frame for steel challenge, but for carry it will always be a g19 or 45 the 45 for me is the fastest gun out of a appendix holster I got, I have not passed the air marshal test with the Shadow 2 yet, but that's just me.
4" PDP with a full size grip definitively does not have less perceived recoil than the 5". Honestly, I haven't shot my PDP in a while, and holy smokes does this gun love to move.
Have you tried PDP F series ? I think you've used only regular PDP frame? I have PDP full size and that's by far best gun for me. I have small hands and wonder if PDP F series would be even better ?
Wouldn't it make more sense to try and get the advantages that the steel frame provides (better felt-recoil, faster shot-on-shot tracking, flatter shooting, ...) through other means (porting, compensator, heavier aftermarket parts, ...) than its sheer weight, as to not have to sacrifice the advantages that the poly provides ? (Lower price tag, less fatigue in extended session, easier handling going from target to target, recoil absorbption through deformation, won't rust in the long term if exposed to the elements extensively, ...) I mean : can we embrace modernity without sacrificing tradition ? ^^
I wonder if that guy who made that video was talking about aluminum frame vs polymer frame. Steel frame vs polymer frame has quite a difference so I don't know how anyone could claim that's negligent... it's usually ~40% increase in weight.
So what about just adding weight to the polymer frame like in the grip, backstrap, light rail, mag extension, etc? I know there are some solid brass WMLs for "gamer" rigs.
Hey Tessah. You have talked about your comp PDP a few times. Did you ever get a chance to check out the pdp-f? You are similar size to my wife and she got a chance to shoot one once and really enjoyed it but is not sure it would conceal well on someone her size.
I own the PDP-F 3.5. It was my first gun purchase and I hoped it would be my carry gun. I absolutely love the gun. I am a small framed women and even with my enigma express dialed in, it is too large for me to conceal carry.
These are the reason my wife was curious if anyone else had any experience with it. She has mostly seen men reviewing it. She tried one and loved shooting it but had the same concerns
Metal frame pistols make much better impact weapons than polymer frame pistols but should be light enough to carry. Something like the steel frame Walther PPK/S (19 oz), S&W 640 Pro (22.4 oz) or Ruger SP101 (25 oz).
Weight and rigidity(or flex in the case of Polymer) absolutely affect shooting. There is also a significant difference between hammer fired and firing pin pistols. If I were walking by as a cop was shot and the assailant tried to kill me where my only option was to grab the cop's gun... Could I defend myself with a Polymer frame firing pin gun? Certainly. Am I more competent with a hammer fired metal gun (preferably steel, but even aluminum)? Most definitely. Is that the case for everyone? I doubt it.
100% I don't see a huge difference in recoil management between Polymer and Aluminium, steel frame is king when it comes to competition shooting and polymer for carry unless you prefer the aesthetics for some reason.
How do you like the Lokgrip on the PDP SF? I bought the thin boogies and I’m not too thrilled. It definitely took out the contour of the backs strap area and not a fan. Feels like I’m holding onto a broom stick.
Oh I very much prefer these thinner grips. I can't hardly reach the trigger at all with the stock backstrap. For smaller guns like the P365/XL I prefer more of a bump on the grip, but for full size guns like this I need to use the reduced size grip.
I’m an M&P fanboy but it pisses me off they made their metal series pistols aluminum and not steel. Granted, they are only a couple hundred more than their polymer brethren as opposed to twice the price for the Walther but imo they should’ve gone all the way or not at all.
I used a polymer pdp 4.5" for my first 3 gun matches. I am switching to a steel full sized cz shadow 2. I enjoy the pdp, but I shoot better with the cz.
I've shot and carried both aluminum and poly guns. The design of the gun makes more of a difference than the frame material. Yes, a lot of disingenuous people out there are slinging metal frames for way more money when they give no actual benefit. But my "g34 we have at home" shoots waaaaaaay softer than my CZP01. Go figure.
Oh come on! Common sense please... This has NOTHING to do with steel vs polymer guns. This has EVERYTHING to do with heavy vs light guns. Heavy guns have lower felt recoil and faster muzzle recovery because the same force will accelerate a bigger mass to a lower speed. A 40 ounce gun is always going to be easier to shoot faster and more accurately than a 20 ounce gun. -- People have been trying to cheat in USPSA and IPDA events by adding weight to their polymer guns with tungsten spring guides and lead behind serial number tabs for years just to get a few extra ounces on their pistols. Because of class rules -- which favors striker fired guns and require double-action/single-action, hammer fired guns to start de-cocked with the hammer down -- steel framed striker fired guns offer a unique advantage of the much higher weight of older designs like CZs and the light, consistent trigger pull of semi-single action striker guns like Glocks. They sure as hell get you more than the 2 or 3 ounces from guide rod and hidden weight cheats! In many ways, weight is king. Weight tames recoil and flip without the annoyances of muzzle brakes such as noise, vertical blast and hassles during disassembly. If you are a competitive shooter adding 20 ounces is worth thousands of dollars! Oh, and the manufacturers are keenly aware of this too... ever wonder why all the steel framed PDPs, Q5s or whatever else are always just under the 43 oz weight limit and just barely fit into a 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8” box?
@@tessahbooth An interesting experiment will be to attach a weight to frame rail of a PDP 5" Match (Polymer) to bring it up to the same 41 Oz. I bet you it'll shoot faster and flatter than the steel frame gun; not only will it have the benefit of the same total mass, it'll actually have more of thhat mass concentrated exactly where you want it (up front).
In a self defence reference no the steel frame price and weight is not worth the price of the polymer. In a competition then sure go wild other wise it doesn't matter.
My life experience is this: as a young man with a strong body, give me a steel frame. As an old man with a cranky back, polymer frame please!
Sound logic
Mhm
Steel frame more weight equals less recoil energy transfer to the shooters grip. No way around the physics at play. Very negligible improvement but it's still there to be sure. Polymer framed guns are lighter & carry easier on the body & that is a nice plus over the steel framed guns. bla bla bla.
I will stick with my High Power & 1911 all being said.
@@c10wiremantawwallace13 everything you said is spot on and great advice for any new shooter. Life experience and an aging body however forces compromises. That’s why I now prefer lighter polymer frames and will be getting the new S&W bodyguard 2.0 this week.
@@Bar1putt I am no spring chicken either 62 now & steel has that feel of value I can't get away from.
I really like my 2/3 size 380 acp 1911 by Browning that has a polymer frame for casual carry.
Nice to hear someone make the distinction between competition and carry guns when choosing material.
It really comes down to what feels good and works well with you. Every shooter has differences in their grip, muscle mass, overall body dimensions, eyesight, etc etc. you can't rely on mfg data. Stacatto claims their polymer frame absorbs and flexes to mitigate muzzle flip. Others say steel does this, or aluminum, or titanium or unobtainium.
Staccato frames are still steel with a polymer grip. It is the weight of the steel than makes the difference in absorbing the recoil. Grip, muscle mass, body dimensions, eye site etc will all be a constant when it comes to her testing unless she put on 20lbs between shoots.
From the moment I understood the weakness of Tupperware1, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
I aspired to the purity of the blessed machining.
Pride month is June.
hahahahaha good one!
I think it’s a Warhammer or Cyberpunk reference, something about a cyborg rejecting the flesh for the metal.
I see this quote everywhere on TH-cam.
Can’t wait to see future videos on it! Just got my match SF. Only once to the range and still waiting on my optic plate, but loving it so far
You just earned yourself a sub. That was a very well worded and Described explanation.😊
One of the main points of a steel frame pistol is less muzzle flip, but the added weight makes transitions a tiny bit slower during USPSA type matches. I have a Rival and Rival S. I actually prefer my Rival setup better for matches since I mostly double tap each target based on the initial sight picture, then transition as fast as possible to the next target.
Great video I was eyeing an aluminum carry but now I think I’ll stick with what I got.. that PDP though. That I want
Truly outstanding video! Have wondered about this for decades, ever since my first Glock. My current three will be my last. Thank-You for your informative analysis. Please continue your excellent work!
"I tote real steel, yours don't appear polished. The gun's all metal so my gear solid." -Tessah Booth
Thank you for great information . Have a blessed one
You can have both is the same gun. Polymer for EDC, then for competition add a TLR-9 with tungsten’s batteries (10 oz), a brass or tungsten thug plug (3-5 ounces), tungsten guide rod (2ounces), brass baseplate (3ounces), etc….etc…. And you can add over a pound onto the gun for flatter shooting and softer recoil. That’s removable! Other types of weights are available too
I really, really want one of those PDP SF 4.5’s, but $1700 + tax + fees for a non-competition pistol?! I’ll spend the extra $1k on ammo and training. Maybe in a few years I’ll find a used one for closer to $1000. Until then, polymer it is.
And Honestly, the PPQ 5” from a few years ago is an absolute laser beam. Flat, smooth, and comfy. I’ve never had any stock polymer pistol shooting better than that one.
I have regular PDP full size 4.5 polymer and love it. Would splurge on steel frame if it wasn't that pricey, I shoot PDP way better than my CZ 75 SP01.
I too have the elusive 4.5” PDP. Sometimes I carry the PDP slide with Holosun optic on my PPQ M1 frame. It fits perfectly in the PDP holster and prints less with the compact frame w 15 round mag.
I shoot the 4.5 polymer in competition. I use the Taylor freelance brass backstrap and a steel guide rod with 13# spring. I have a pack up that doesn’t have the brass backstrap. The 4ish total oz weight difference perceptively helps me.
Wonderful video. Keep up the great work!
I don't know the exact difference in weight but I will say, I shoot my x macro way better with the Icarus grip over the polymer! Maybe it's mind over matter but if that's the case it's worth it to me!
Is the icarus grip steel or aluminum?
@@cs51207Aluminum
@@cs51207Aluminum about 4oz more. They just came out with a polymer frame too
I just added the 4” PDP to my daily winter carry. And I love that gun. It’s very accurate for me and the trigger is so good for a striker fired platform. I was thinking about the metal frame for competition but a cheaper option would be to get the 4.5” or 5” barrel.
You are correct. There is a big difference between a "steel" frame and a "metal" frame. Metal could be either steel or aluminum. It would depend greatly on the individual pistol as to whether or not you get any difference in weight. I think smith and wesson has an M&P "metal" model that weighs the same as the polymer m&p. In that case, I'm not sure you would see any advantage other than maybe long-term durability.
Great video, great points, pithy & cogent. Thank you!
I like steel
I would also take my steel pdp or any steel firearm over a polymer version any day. At the end of the day practice with what you got.
Also I hope you have got a long slide kit from zr tactical. What a game changer I’m recoil management. Plus there mag extensions as well for the steel pdp.
A heavier gun will have less recoil. Boils down to how heavy a gun do you want to carry? For competitions, weight doesn’t matter as much as it would for carry.
I have my PDP SF match on order. Hopefully it’s worth it!
I love both, have nice 1911s and Aluminum frame P320 custom works guns and lot of tiny 365 / 365XLs and pocket guns. 365 polymer frame is much better hot summer days carrying in pocket, a really nice 1911 is sweet to shoot on the range.
Thanks for the video !
Also, as an avid fan of old-school Trek bicycles, steel is generally far less rigid than aluminum. Which results in a smoother ride. An, although extremely minor, I suspect steel framed guns do dissipate and absorb the recoil better than aluminum. Definitely not as much as polymer. However, all things being equal, I think a steel framed gun would feel less jarring than an aluminum frame gun. But you'd need identical models with the same weight and size to tell. So it's just a theory on my part.
Another Great Video 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Yeah I have the aluminum frame for the zev and I would agree that if you do the aluminum without the weights it’s pretty pointless. Still working on my video to come but one thing to try is the lighter recoil spring or the dpm in the Walther as they are over spring from the factory and it really helps with recoil.
The difference is in materials. Tactical Toolbox was talking specifically about aluminum frame guns to polymer.
Not steel. Steel guns shoot A LOT flatter and softer. Aluminum frames don’t really make a lot of difference. The perceived recoil impulse is sharper with aluminum frames vs polymer frames. At least in my testing. I’ve done it with sigs.
My PDP Match SF vs my PDP 5” side by side is insanely different. You’re looking at maybe even less than half of the felt recoil. So I’m gonna go with the steel frame. I haven’t shot my polymer frame much since I got my Match SF 😂
It sometimes comes down to design. I own a PPQ. The balance is absolutely horrendous. I've added a brass backstrap just to pull the grip down and aid in some of the nose heaviness. (Mixed with the 19lb spring, its just not a very good design) so I'm sure with a glock or a design that manages recoil better inherently by design, doesn't need a steel frame. Where as a gun like a PDP, or M&P, or Canik get a marginal increase in control and performance. Its negligible unless you're an experienced shooter with the feel sensitivity close to Tiger Woods (who could feel a couple cotton balls difference in weight between 2 seemingly identical clubs)
But all in all, you're an American, buy whatever you want and stop letting "content creators" dictate your purchasing. 🤷♂️
Well said 👍!
Wow this was very informative and well put together! Appreciate the content.
I was an early 5” pdp adopter, and was thinking well sheesh, do I need to go steel or just be content with poly😖
big heavy full size pistols are great for competition.
medium to small frame polymers are excellent as daily carries.
I think it really depends on the gun. For a 1911/2011 with a high bore axis, a steel lower and grip makes a huge difference in how flat the gun shoots. For a Glock and most poly guns with a lower bore axis, I don't notice enough of a difference to justify the switch. As polymer does soak up a good bit of recoil thru flexing, a metal frame actually feels snappier to many people.
Haha I've got a polymer-framed PDP and man it's so snappy. I'm glad I got a Lok grip, Walther tungsten guide rod, and a weapon light.
My p01 definitely is the flattest shooting pistol I own.
You can't just say that without stating the guns you are comparing it to.
@@Osprey1994 p07, G19
I have a PDP-F and the Q4 SF. I love both, but prefer shooting the F series more, although not because of steel vs. polymer, but because the F series fits my smaller hands better. Had it not been for that, I most certainly would be shooting the Q4 alot more.
I'm a big fan of the aftermarket aluminum grip modules for the p365 and p320 (specifically the Mischief Machine Commanders)
It's not just a weight thing, though. The grip angle and texture okay a large role, too.
In fact, the MM full size aluminum P320 is substantially LIGHTER than the Tungsten impregnated polymer X-Five grip module. But the aggressively textured grip panels and 2011/1911 grip angle give it a bit of an edge in shootability for me.
I would love a steel version though...
You nailed it! Thanks
Was one of your first pistols the Walther P22? I think it was one of your old videos, I'm teaching my daughter on the P22 now. Digging the Walthers!
It wasn't! The only other Walther I have owned is my Q5 SF!
Sounds like a great pistol to start someone off with!
I used to carry a Kimber Micro 9 Raptor which is a metal gun. It shot really nice and I love the gun, but I now use the p365 as my daily carry. The 17 red of the macro can’t be beat on such a small gun.
Good video. It proves again I stick to my CZ Shadow 2. Cheap, better gun than PDP steel frame.
I really like my Q4 SF!! It’s one smooth shooting tool and the great part, is I only paid $899 brand new
Rats… I paid $850 on the polymer version… (but it was a new release back then). How on EARTH you got a 40% MSRP discount?
@@VincitOmniaVeritas7 man I don’t know. 🤷🏽♂️ PSA had them on a clearance sale and I scooped it up IMMEDIATELY
Excellent comparison. Thank you. Something I'd really like to see is a comparison of the Canik Rival polymer WITH THE BRASS BACKSTRAP compared to the Rival-S (steel frame). Can you get metal frame stability for less by putting a little brass on a equal polymer gun?
As someone who owns the Rival polymer with the brass backstrap, I have been told by others they prefer the feel of mine over a steel frame Rival. I have never shot one, nor do I care to. Happy with my setup.
Don't know if they have one for the 4.5" PDP SF. But ZR Tactical makes a long stroke guide rod and spring. The gun which already has a great return barely moves after putting in the long stroke guide rod. People like Velox Training Group and Tony3m really show the PDP SF at it's full capability.
You could run an interesting comparison by attaching enough weight to the baseplate of a magazine to normalize the weight between polymer and metal framed guns.
I love my Q4 SF, it’s my carry gun too!
So, with regard to recoil, sure it may not be perceptive depending on how well both are made, but what steel brings is stability, they tend to recover faster, especially with less skill or grip strength. Polymer having its flex really helps it perform better though. There’s pros and cons as always, but this is why it’s important to get behind the guns as well as evaluate your needs
Wow that thumbnail is gorgeous. What grip is that?
Thank you! They're Lok Veloce grips :)
I appreciate the data point about the dot, but your times did not pose a statistically significant change. This illustrates that predictive shooting is about timing and control more than feedback from the sight.
I recognize the practicality of polymer guns for carry but metal guns just feel natural. A one-to-one test in the same family like the PDP or S&W M&P is a good test. A lot of reviewers will compare something like a Glock 19 to a Government 1911 and then say that the metal gun shoots flatter. Of course it does, a 1911 is like shooting on easy mode.
Pros and cons to both. A grandmaster Hunter Constantine sticks with polymer guns in competitions. All depends on what’s right for you
I have a 9mm S&W model 639 stainless. It's a beautiful gun and accurate. That said, I am going to trade it because it is too damn heavy to shoot for very long. About 2 lbs 4 oz. Compare that with say a Sig P365x which weighs about 1.1 lbs, the S&W is more than twice the weight.
I believe another consideration would be longevity. Does a poly frame degrade faster than metal or steel? I’d tend to think so. A consideration if you intend to pass on your guns…
I use the Icarus ace hybrid pro grip for my p365x, it’s aluminum and makes a hell of a difference over my polymer grip p365x. I’d rather carry a few extra oz. everyday and be more consistent with my shooting should the chance ever arise.
Polymer frame is ok with all aluminum trigger shoes / magwell / base plate / mag release. For lower muzzle flip, comp or port works. But metal frame is cooler like P365 Legion
What matches do you compete in? Would make a cool video to see your competition setup vs your edc setup
USPSA, PCSL and 2 Gun typically! Here's the video you seek: th-cam.com/video/ngGwypFiXQ8/w-d-xo.html
They absolutely do make a difference, especially with muzzle flip. The metal frames have a noticeably lower muzzle flip than their polymer counterparts.
Aluminum over polymer frame. It's heavier, but shoots so much better. I came from a Glock to a Staccato, for reference
I use a steel frame for steel challenge, but for carry it will always be a g19 or 45 the 45 for me is the fastest gun out of a appendix holster I got, I have not passed the air marshal test with the Shadow 2 yet, but that's just me.
I am carrying the 4.5" Poly as my hunting side arm.
4" PDP with a full size grip definitively does not have less perceived recoil than the 5". Honestly, I haven't shot my PDP in a while, and holy smokes does this gun love to move.
Have you tried PDP F series ? I think you've used only regular PDP frame? I have PDP full size and that's by far best gun for me. I have small hands and wonder if PDP F series would be even better ?
I haven't shot the F series much!
Wouldn't it make more sense to try and get the advantages that the steel frame provides (better felt-recoil, faster shot-on-shot tracking, flatter shooting, ...) through other means (porting, compensator, heavier aftermarket parts, ...) than its sheer weight, as to not have to sacrifice the advantages that the poly provides ? (Lower price tag, less fatigue in extended session, easier handling going from target to target, recoil absorbption through deformation, won't rust in the long term if exposed to the elements extensively, ...)
I mean : can we embrace modernity without sacrificing tradition ? ^^
Not that no one wanted, just that it was the hardest to get.
I wonder if that guy who made that video was talking about aluminum frame vs polymer frame. Steel frame vs polymer frame has quite a difference so I don't know how anyone could claim that's negligent... it's usually ~40% increase in weight.
So what about just adding weight to the polymer frame like in the grip, backstrap, light rail, mag extension, etc? I know there are some solid brass WMLs for "gamer" rigs.
Hey Tessah. You have talked about your comp PDP a few times. Did you ever get a chance to check out the pdp-f? You are similar size to my wife and she got a chance to shoot one once and really enjoyed it but is not sure it would conceal well on someone her size.
I actually haven't put much thought or attention towards the F-series solely because I am 100% certain it will be way too much gun for me to conceal.
I own the PDP-F 3.5. It was my first gun purchase and I hoped it would be my carry gun. I absolutely love the gun. I am a small framed women and even with my enigma express dialed in, it is too large for me to conceal carry.
These are the reason my wife was curious if anyone else had any experience with it. She has mostly seen men reviewing it.
She tried one and loved shooting it but had the same concerns
Metal frame pistols make much better impact weapons than polymer frame pistols but should be light enough to carry. Something like the steel frame Walther PPK/S (19 oz), S&W 640 Pro (22.4 oz) or Ruger SP101 (25 oz).
Tactical Toolbox loves him some sensational thumbnails. 😂
Hey, I totally get it, it's a pretty effective way to get views!
Excellent range guns, not good for carry.
Weight and rigidity(or flex in the case of Polymer) absolutely affect shooting. There is also a significant difference between hammer fired and firing pin pistols.
If I were walking by as a cop was shot and the assailant tried to kill me where my only option was to grab the cop's gun... Could I defend myself with a Polymer frame firing pin gun? Certainly. Am I more competent with a hammer fired metal gun (preferably steel, but even aluminum)? Most definitely. Is that the case for everyone? I doubt it.
100% I don't see a huge difference in recoil management between Polymer and Aluminium, steel frame is king when it comes to competition shooting and polymer for carry unless you prefer the aesthetics for some reason.
Thx. Tessah for your posts. Safe & vigilant . 👍🎯🗽🔫🇺🇸
What is the model in the thumbnail? That blue grip looks amazing but I can’t find it anywhere when I search for it. Thanks!
This is 4.5" PDP-SF, but the grips are from LOK :)
How do you like the Lokgrip on the PDP SF? I bought the thin boogies and I’m not too thrilled. It definitely took out the contour of the backs strap area and not a fan. Feels like I’m holding onto a broom stick.
Oh I very much prefer these thinner grips. I can't hardly reach the trigger at all with the stock backstrap. For smaller guns like the P365/XL I prefer more of a bump on the grip, but for full size guns like this I need to use the reduced size grip.
I’m an M&P fanboy but it pisses me off they made their metal series pistols aluminum and not steel. Granted, they are only a couple hundred more than their polymer brethren as opposed to twice the price for the Walther but imo they should’ve gone all the way or not at all.
Where can I read more about the difference in the perceived recoil between the different length barrels?
I'm not really sure, I mostly gained thoughts and opinions from talking to other owners.
@@tessahbooth anyone you can connect me with to discuss before I purchase?
Honestly, probably not. I don't feel comfortable providing contact information. I'm sure you understand! @@klomanchiodo
I used a polymer pdp 4.5" for my first 3 gun matches. I am switching to a steel full sized cz shadow 2. I enjoy the pdp, but I shoot better with the cz.
Have you tried a CZ P10SC or the P10F?
@@awokeone7997 I have not. Not yet at least. I was actually thinking about getting a p10c or p10f, but I have not gotten around to either one, yet.
I've shot and carried both aluminum and poly guns. The design of the gun makes more of a difference than the frame material. Yes, a lot of disingenuous people out there are slinging metal frames for way more money when they give no actual benefit. But my "g34 we have at home" shoots waaaaaaay softer than my CZP01. Go figure.
Won’t matter to me, the gun will still be light years more accurate than I am no matter which way I go 🤣
I don’t see a $1600 gun though
Cool
I will take a Mental Firearm anyway Longevity Steel Firearm .
Oh come on! Common sense please... This has NOTHING to do with steel vs polymer guns. This has EVERYTHING to do with heavy vs light guns. Heavy guns have lower felt recoil and faster muzzle recovery because the same force will accelerate a bigger mass to a lower speed. A 40 ounce gun is always going to be easier to shoot faster and more accurately than a 20 ounce gun.
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People have been trying to cheat in USPSA and IPDA events by adding weight to their polymer guns with tungsten spring guides and lead behind serial number tabs for years just to get a few extra ounces on their pistols. Because of class rules -- which favors striker fired guns and require double-action/single-action, hammer fired guns to start de-cocked with the hammer down -- steel framed striker fired guns offer a unique advantage of the much higher weight of older designs like CZs and the light, consistent trigger pull of semi-single action striker guns like Glocks. They sure as hell get you more than the 2 or 3 ounces from guide rod and hidden weight cheats! In many ways, weight is king. Weight tames recoil and flip without the annoyances of muzzle brakes such as noise, vertical blast and hassles during disassembly. If you are a competitive shooter adding 20 ounces is worth thousands of dollars! Oh, and the manufacturers are keenly aware of this too... ever wonder why all the steel framed PDPs, Q5s or whatever else are always just under the 43 oz weight limit and just barely fit into a 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8” box?
Yes, that is the point of the video.
@@tessahbooth An interesting experiment will be to attach a weight to frame rail of a PDP 5" Match (Polymer) to bring it up to the same 41 Oz. I bet you it'll shoot faster and flatter than the steel frame gun; not only will it have the benefit of the same total mass, it'll actually have more of thhat mass concentrated exactly where you want it (up front).
Cute girl alert!
In a self defence reference no the steel frame price and weight is not worth the price of the polymer. In a competition then sure go wild other wise it doesn't matter.