Lights Flicker In The House For 3 Years, What Does That Mean?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2024
- petersonelectr... - In Centennial where a customer had an electrical issue; lights were flickering. Talking about what we did to troubleshoot the issue.
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I was watching your videos on lights flickering because im running a project. A very big project. We had an issue in one of the buildings where lights were flickering and we knew it was a neutral problem. We just couldnt figure it out. I noticed your shop location and low and behold you were located a half hr drive from the project. I took your video to the meeting of the big wigs that were asking me what the hell i was going to do about it. I told them your location and they said get him in here. U showed up that day.
I had 4 journeymen, one master, the city of ft collins all look in the gear to know avail. You showed up and fixed the problem within five minutes. No one thought to check the nut on the neutral bus bar because upon installation there are two nuts on that bolt, one nut breaks off upon tightening the bus bar for proper torque. When only one nut is there everybody assumes the single nut is tight. No one even thought to check.
Thankyou is not enough for you josh. More people then you know are so thankful. You have alot of electricians scratching there head right now including me. You taught us all a good lesson. We got ur number josh. Cant wait to thankyou in person. Your shop is ten minutes from my home.
They treated me at work the next day as a hero simply because i was the one that found you. They arent even going to send us a bill. Your the man josh. I sincerely thank you my friend.
That sounds like some darn good input on the thoroughness of this guy... You should give this guy's comment a like!
my lights flickered because if a burnt circuit breaker . still operational but the contacts were torched.
Did you ever get to thank him in person seeing that this comment was two years old and his shop is ten minutes from your residence?
2 years after he fixed my building i ran in to him at black jack pizza. Thanked him then. I was the hero at the project just because i found him.
1oldiesbut
Thanks for your watching and subscribing to us. The point of these videos is to help people, not typically the DYI. I do not know if I make a ton of money on my TH-cam videos, I just know that this is something we started six years ago and my SEO guy thought I had a good idea.
I have been criticized at charging customers for my time while I do these videos, I always ask my customer if I can make make a video. I do not mention their name and address “after” I have billed them.
These videos are on my time in my dime to create and download, and have my SEO guy blog them.
You are correct that I am caring and I am glad to help people, I never did well with bully’s in school! Nowadays these people are cowards online that make horrible comments to other people that they didn’t ever met, but this will not deter me. I think the reason why I get a lot of criticism is because I’m either explaining other peoples messes up’s, or making them aware they didn’t screw up, or other tradesmen think I’m giving out secrets of how bill people.
Bottom line I love what I do when I’m passionate about it, but I do not mind piss and other people off if they step on my toes
I'm not a electrician but I admired this man enthusiasm for his trade, this is the type of fellow I would like to work in my home .
1. He cares for what he does
2. He will see it as his mission to get to the bottom of the problem.
3 He has respect for your property.
Top bloke
Awesome and informative video.
I was at the mercy of our local electric provider with our flickering/dimming lights for about 1 1/2 years. They kept insisting the issue was on our side. They sent out the same tech many times and came up with the same "diagnosis": "it's on your side".
Fortunately our meter box was from the early 60s and was easy to bypass the seal to be able to test the connections inside that proved consistent voltage fluctuations even on their side by myself.
Finally, they sent out a competent lineman and he redid the connections that I had told them needed replacing and viola!, no more flickering or dimming of our lights. I cut open the connector for the neutral that I knew had to be bad, and low and behold, it was corroded and partly scorched. I thanked that guy for his service.
Killed two fridges and one freezer and lights constantly burning out. Not even so much as an apology or anything from the company.
BTW: only reason we didn't get an electrician was because I had to stop working due to my disability and mounting medical bills, otherwise, that would have been done first thing. I do have enough knowledge of electricity (both AC and D.C) to do simple diagnostics.
The local power company tried the same thing on me.
I had heard hissing near the wires but no visible arc for many months - especially when it rained. My reporting of the hiss was ignored.
When the lights started flickering, I called again, but was told that it was at my end. So I took my Fluke meter and measured the leg voltages at the feeder connections in the distribution panel, including when I plugged in a 1200 watt portable electric hotplate.
When I called them up again and told them about my measurements, they had a lineman out within a couple of hours. It was a loose neutral connection at the power pole that was not properly tightened.
Years ago I had a neutral break off at the top of the telephone pole but didn’t notice. Every time I turned the toaster on the lights in the kitchen would get really bright. Once it was fixed everything was fine.
The lineman said that if I would have been touching the water faucet that I probably would have been electrocuted by being the‘GROUND’!!!! I cheated death once again!
This happened to my girlfriends house and I traced it to the pole. Town electric co. Well they said they checked it at pole,nothing wrong. The house burnt down. Started at the panel. After rebuilding, the light started doing the same thing. Flickering, blowing bulb. Made the little town electric co. come out and they found one leg loose at the top of the pole,wind blowing it back and forth. Arcing. Unbelievable!!!
Did they reimburse you for the house burning down?
Was the house insured?
I've been an electrician for over 40 years and this is almost always a neutral problem, just start by checking the main service entrance connections then move to the breaker panel then down the circuit with the problem. If turning on and off a 240 volt appliance causes things to go on and off it is in the main panel or service entrance.
I learned this from experience.
Michael Clark I have noticed about the same thing. I've been an electrician since 1983. In Texas, there is no true 2 phase. The neutral is the grounded center-tap on the secondary side of the transformer, which makes out-of phase impossible. When lights flicker (which we define as on and off at a fast rate) that usually indicates a loose hot. What I saw in this video was not a flicker, but a surge. When the lights dim or get too bright, it is just like you said, almost always a neutral problem. I am not sure the advantage of locating the exact spot of the broken neutral, especially at a cost of $2800. This is a house. It's broken . Replace it. Am I right? Is all this overkill, or am I missing something?
Right on Michael, your spot on.
I have the same issue, l lose 120vac, check the sub panel, nothing there. Check main panel, and nothing there, no 120vac from one leg L1. I don't have 120vac coming from the meter out side. I get power back on that leg L1, when I turn on my 240vac dryer. Please help.
Our lights flickered for years. I checked everything, multiple times. I called the power company and they sent someone out who concluded there were no issues. It ended up being a short cable going to the transformer that was burned nearly in two. My neighbor had been "watching the pretty blue lights for years."
Good video, shows you really know your stuff. I had a very similar problem nearly 30 years ago. The 1st day my wife and I moved into our home, 1/2 the lights were getting BRIGHTER when the A/C came on. The other 1/2 would not come on. The previous home owner had used a post hole digger to put in a new side fence. He nicked one of the feed cables and the cable must have burned in two. I ended up having to trench in new cables, which was a real PIA since they are buried 5' deep and were 70' long.
Thank you for watching, glad to hear some videos help other tradesmen. I hope to impact other electricians and apprentices. I have to agree with schooling, it helps with theory, but in the end it’s the (OJT) On the job training that helps deepen the knowledge once the experience clicks. Keep up the good work!
You nailed it. I saw an apartment that had a fire due to a poor connection between the center tap of the utility transformer and the ground/neutral of the building. The occupants experienced up and down variations in incandescent light brightness before the fire. The bad connection allows the normal +/_ 120 V to vary depending on the relative load on each side. The load current imbalanced caused a voltage imbalance as well. The higher voltage could literally break down some appliance circuit or create an arc...which resulted in a fire.
Dennis Fitzgerald I
A poor connection in a circuit that is passing high current will heat that connection up and potentially cause a fire.
Mr. Peterson,
You are in 2018, standardizing open sourced information, and your work is phenominal. For years the general public has been kept naive, by individuals whom have been given the keys to such in depth knowledge, made simple for them to understand. But today i find you, daring to spread the gospel of electricity for all to visually and audibly interpret, as it is our own.
Flickering lights. After viewing this video I reached out to Joshua about a similar problem. He responded to my inquiry within 8 hours. He came out THE NEXT DAY. He spent time carefully checking everything & determined the problem is with Xcel Energy. He called them to tell them what he found & where he thinks the problem is. I will stay in touch with him until the problem is solved. It is a relief to know what is going on with my lights. I recommend Peterson Electric for competent, reliable, & friendly service. Thanks Joshua & Alshia
Thank you Rebecca, glad to help.
Good video. I've seen that problem several times. Now, I know to check the neutral right away if the lights flicker like that. Also, motors will make strange sounds sometimes. Like blower motors, fridge compressors and such. Thanks for the video.
Yes they do make a weird breathing sound as if they are alive sometimes!!
And also check the neutrals connection at the panel to make sure the lug is not loose or corroded. That will also cause the problem in the video. Jumpering a wire around the loose connection like he did and going back to the meter bus would have also cleared the problem if that were the case. In other words...verify that it is a fault in the cable vs. a faulty connection before you come to a conclusion and still have the problem after the expense of replacing the feeder wire.
great video.. found my problem lightning struck one side were it went threw the basement wall were the soil was wet didnt find it till the ground froze and separated the cable and got low amps on that side
@@realflow100 They are A-live.
You sound more like a detective trying to determine what was causing the problem. Good video. Sound could have been a little better, but I enjoyed it.
Thanks for watching, yes we have to dig deep sometimes on these calls. It seems when others are not able to find the problem people call on us to dig deeper. Tried to get the sound as loud as possible, the I-phone is as good as it gets, maybe when I get the new I phone 8 it might help.
Regarding the sound get a wireless microphone you can clip to your shirt and that will eliminate the weak audio.
Irrigation specialist grandfathered in low voltage. Love your use of terms like voltage=pressure. I've been away from contracting for some years now I miss it. Those old skills do come in handy for trouble shooting and repairs. You clearly are in the zone in your career. Awesome!
Awesome video. My advice to you would be to ignore negative comments. You are looking to gain and give knowledge. Not entertain idiots. Haters want to hate
A couple of years ago, I was called to look at an early 2000's Volkswagen Beetle which kept melting fuse boxes. The last time the owner replaced the fuse box he bought two, so we had a replacement on hand already. But, I had to determine why and try to fix it. When the owner started the vehicle, there were also strange noises emanating from the engine compartment. The purpose of my call out was the melting fuse boxes, so the noises would have to wait. I checked the voltage at the battery and the fuse box (in this car, the primary fuse box is directly on top of the battery). The voltage looked okay, borderline low, but okay. FYI, a car battery is approximately 12.5v when fully charged and should be between 13 & 15 volts while the engine is running (ideally, 13.5 - 14v). This car's battery voltage while the engine was running was 13v even with no lights/accessories on.
I then checked the voltage at the alternator: 13.5v. I re-checked and sure enough, there was a 0.5v drop in voltage between the alternator and the battery. The cable from the alternator to the fuse box/battery was only about 4ft (1200cm) long. I checked the fuse for the alternator connection and the cross-sectional area of the wire. The car left the factory with the ABSOLUTE minimum thickness of wire for the fuse value used (not the safe minimum, the absolute minimum). Any damage/deterioration in the cable or connections compromised the current carrying capacity of the cable. Any...
I replaced the alternator cable with a cable one size thicker than what was factory installed. I both crimped and soldered the connectors onto the ends of the cable. I replaced the partly melted fuse box with the spare the owner had on hand. No more voltage drop after starting the engine. Surprisingly, the strange noises from the engine area also disappeared. I assume the strange noises were from electric actuators (or similar devices) on the engine which were noisy due to low voltage.
Great discussion, I have been an electrician for almost 40 years. I have ran into a number of these issues through the years, great troubleshooting. Worked on fused panels to a single 30 amp circuit running the whole house.Too many stories.
have "run"
Thanks for watching. I had an old teacher that taught us that voltage is pressure, the potential waiting to be used. When resistance is present as we turn on an item than our amps or joules are created. But this also has to be thought out by article 210.19 in the code. (2*K*I*A / CM) = VD.
When this is considered we always have a manifestation of article 110.14, our weakest link.
I’m a first year apprentice and I just subscribed. I have a feeling you are a wealth of knowledge that will help me in my career.
I had a similar issue a couple years ago, failed insulation on the underground cable, had a corroded neutral. Caused some very strange effects, some things would work, some wouldn't, lights were dim, etc. One leg was 125 volts, the other was 100-105 depending on the load. Luckily it was in front of the meter so I was off the hook for any costs. When he described the differing voltages that's the first thing that came to mind was a faulty neutral somewhere.
I love troubleshooting jobs like this. I can see you also enjoy these challenges! :)
Years ago my uncle's house was having flickering lights but only on certain circuits. The cause was some bad 1930's splices in the attic. They had used solid 14AWG, twisted and taped over with rubber melding tape. Due to shade tree electricians adding additional circuits, they had way too much on that circuit. It was supplying two bathrooms with in-ceiling heaters, as well as some kitchen outlets. They were further foolish enough to install a 30A breaker for that circuit.
In the attic, the twisted splice had overheated. I turned on the two bathroom heaters because that provoked the flickering. In the attic I was horrified to see a glowing incandescent splice! The tape had burned away completely and the twisted copper wire was red hot!
As you say, never ignore flickering lights! In my mind, flickering = arcing and arcing leads to fires.
Holy cow! That's scary!
I once saw a bumper sticker on the back of a pick up truck that said... "Electricity Is Not a Hobby". I assume that the guy driving the truck was an electrician, but I agree with his sticker. That is not something to play around with! I can wire a simple lamp or speakers in a car. But there's no way in hell I'm messing with household electricity!
Totally crazy but believable. I can't count how many times I've run across 'splices' that were just wires twisted together and held in place with electrical tape. And in the old days, they would cut the equipment grounds off of everything!
YES and they somehow get away with it and don't get killed! That is what amazes me.
I had a similar but much less drastic situation in my kitchen years ago. I noticed that the fluorescent light sometimes flickered when I turned it on. I replaced the switch and then it didn't work at all! It seems that when the house was built the hot wire to the switch was spliced to the rest of the circuit with a crimped collar which was covered by a sleeve secured by a set screw with a bakelite cover. The collar had loosened up causing an intermittent connection. I cleaned off the wires and respliced them using a wire nut. Nowadays I have an LED fixture which works and looks much better than the old one.
Flickering does not necessarily equal arcing - especially if lights get overly bright momentarily or steadily.
It is entirely possible for a high resistance neutral on the feeder side to cause the dimming/flickering badly enough to cause devices to fail from over/under voltage.
The problem can sometimes be difficult for an inexperienced person to determine since, if the Side A and Side B loads are balanced, then everything is fine - since little or no current will be flowing in the bad neutral.
Thank you. I am not officially an electrician. Just a Ham Radio Operator. I bought a house with a 200 amp service. It didn't have much interior wiring and had old knob and tube wiring including the braided lamp chords hanging the light fixtures from the ceiling. With a nearly empty box I added some wiring.
Later I noticed the lights would occasionally flicker. I couldn't understand why when there was a water pipe ground and a ground rod outside as per code. Still later I had the lights going on and off in an uneven fashion. As I approached the service box I saw arching at the cold water ground. I shut the power off and noticed the grounding bracket was much looser on one side than the other. I tightened it so both sides were even and tight. That solved most of the flickering.
I was not done though. I rented the house out and the tenant had a dish service installed. He told me the installer had complained about my ground. Well it wasn't brand new and didn't have the gadgets for attaching antenna grounding they are used to. Still later I went out and looked at it and found the rod to be loose. It was only a rod stuck in the ground. I have since added two 8 ft. ground rods. No more flickers.
Grounds are not the solution to flickers your loose neutral is.
I can not believe all the trouble you go through just to help out a brother electrician, greatly appreciated. Look out for your main gas line they usually run parallel to the power as well.
Where I live (Sweden) 400V 3-phase is the norm, even in residential installations since the late 70's. And I did grow up on a farm and did learn the necessity not only about having good grounding and neutral but also the order of the phases otherwise things would run backwards.
Great video! It's mind-boggling to see the things people do that isn't up to code. And for what? The few dollars you're saving are worth spending to make sure it doesn't burn down around you. I'm a DIYer but I always pull permits and have the work I do inspected to make sure it's right.
I agree, either being a DYI or a Master at the field, I think people just do not know how to say no to their ideas and get help. As a company we have to ask a lot of closed ended questions to make certain people are not asking us how to do for as so called "free estimate". I do not think people general understand how much time it took to learn these things and how much money and schooling, it took for us to be able to operate a business professionally. Inspectors are their for the general helping of knowledge and safety control on building, although, I have seen the most intense problems with them on small projects in someone's home. When they come out as a wild card, this is not safe, I have called many of times to deal with their boss on such small issues. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you do it yourself make certain you understand what your working on or go and hire someone. TH-cam is not an Academy and or a place to put your home or family at risk. I'm heading to my inlaws 80miles away today to help them, some dumb-ass neighbor wired their furnace with an extension cord, and they have aluminum wiring in the house, FIRE HAZARD!. I'm hoping they did not pay this jerk for the work he did, if their house catches fire who is to blame?
Depends on the house, really. Take my house for example. I bought it back in '95 for $15k. It was a slumlord's rent house before that.
The guy I bought it from did a horrible remodel and wired the whole place up on two breakers. It was knob-and-tube before that - still got the original 1920s fixtures above the false ceiling. The wiring is solid enough that it doesn't catch fire, but it's so far off code that the only way to fix it is to gut the inside of the house down to the studs.
It's the cheap homes like mine where you really see the pennies getting pinched. Wiring this place right would have cost about 10% of what he sold the house for, so he wired it wrong, made it look nice, and sold it to an unsuspecting 19 year old who didn't know better.
And you know what? It's not the worst I've seen, by a long shot. I was turning my truck around and knocked off a power line that was (illegally) too low in a commercial area near St. Louis. The renter showed me the electrical box - in a 4-foot high dirt-floored area under the house - and it looked like cloth-wrapped spaghetti down there with pennies in place of half the fuses. I told him he needed to find a new landlord, especially since I wasn't the first truck to knock that wire down. But if you think about it, the slumlord has no incentive to fix the problem; it'd take at least two years' worth of rent to fix it right. Better to sell it contract-for-deed to some poor guy who'll never be able to afford an electrician.
@@Petersonelectricllc Yep. When a prospective clients first two questions/comments are: Do you offer free estimates? And I am willing to help with the labor as much as possible to save money.... I tend to steer clear. I do offer free estimates. And I am aware and understanding of certain clients needing to be conscious and calculated financially, but I also prefer to do good work for a good price. Work that I can stand behind. And that kind of work isn't cheap, and can't be done in a hurry. I'm not going to outbid several other electricians in a bidding war for that reason. I'll let somebody else fight for those jobs. And the "What can I do to help in order to save money...?" crap is just ridiculous. I am a professional electrician. You as a homeowner will not be assisting me on this project. I would never offer to assist my doctor or lawyer in an effort to decrease the bill.There is virtually nothing a homeowner can do except get in the way. Any assisted labor will certainly not be contributing to productivity, and therefore my bottom line.
I am very understanding of people who prefer to pull permits. Thats totally fine. Some people just like to do things by the book, and things do tend to run smoother that way. But as an electrical contractor I must say its often a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy that I honestly prefer to do without. I always leave it up to the client. But I suppose it depends on how much you trust your contractors, and if you've worked with them before. I value doing quality work. But I also work with other contractors who even though I consider them great friends would not consider them great contractors with good integrity. Just like any other field I suppose. So in that sense as a client you may be smart to involve a third party.
Thank you. My father was a master electrician, I worked with him for years, but in the end my path was not to be an electrician. In retirement I do handyman work. This video shows there is a reason it takes so long to work your way up to a master and those who are not should stick to the simple things to repair and know when to suggest the homeowners call in the master to correct the problem.
Thank you, I wish most people would see this in our field. In fact, in everyone's filed work their are secrets of knowledge and wisdom of others that you catch and hope in the end help your customers.
I was working on a new twin-tower residential mid-rise in Seattle several years ago. On the 2nd floor every 3rd recessed light in the long corridor was on an emergency circuit. During the day ALL the lights in the corridor would get very very dim and then later go back to full intensity. No dimmers involved, and 2 separate circuits fed from 2 separate electrical systems. After several days of troubleshooting I discovered that there was cold outside air entering the ceiling area of the corridor lights when the wind blew in a certain direction. This cold air was being forced into the corridor through the tiny vent holes in the top of the fixture reflector. And since these fixtures were CFL it affected the temperature sensitive amalgam reservoir in each of the CFL lamps. Once the air leak was fixed the lights worked perfectly. It wasn't an electrical issue at all!
I had this problem at my house decades ago. We'd notice that when turning on a unit heater (120V) in the bathroom, that the opposite leg's voltage would go high. The source of the problem was a corroded connection and an undersized neutral wire. Until we had the service connection redone, I ran a 2AWG wire from the neutral on the box to the neutral at the meter case and that solved it. We eventually had the whole service redone with underground service to the pole and an upgrade in ampacity.
Thanks, we’ve been in this 20 years we are being safe as possible
Thank you for watching, it would mean a huge amount to our small shop if you would copy this and add this as a google, Angie’s, Yelp and BBB for reviews, that is the gift that will keep on giving back to us. Thanks for calling glad to help, i for some reason have a gift at finding the oddest problems on jobs, go figure. Cheers!
Nice job. I run into people allllll the time who have purchased homes that have been modified improperly (electrically) and the home inspectors don't say anything about it.
Smh so true and during the pandemic who wants to call an electrician?...
the flicker that I analyzed resulted in a dramatic voltage drop to 67 volts on one leg, without a drop on the other leg at the customer side of the meter. Called the power company to disconnect their side of the meter and found their neutral connector (aluminum with Allen bolt) had corroded from internal arcing on the face of the connector. SRP did not have a replacement, so I filed it down smooth for the SRP repairman who used a compound in the re-installation on the utility side of the meter. Problem was never on the customer's side. Sometimes, when everything was working properly, the first thing to check is the neutral connector and voltage on the customer side, as you did. In my case it was obvious there was a problem on the utility side. Sounds like the underground neutral on customer side in your case was damaged somehow and your return was divided, causing flicker.
You could absolutely megger that. Disconnect the neutral and hots at both ends, and megger each conductor to each other and then to ground. If the wiring is good, you will read completely open or max out the meter and it would read in the hundreds of mega-ohms. The megger checks the integrity of the insulation with a higher voltage, it doesn't matter if the neutral is slightly smaller. If the insulation is bad somewhere on the neutral you will get a much lower resistance reading to ground compared to the good conductors. Megger is a must for that type of troubleshooting, especially underground feeders and services. You can also use it to check failing motors, etc.
xprocharged1 - Absolutely spot on. I work at a LARGE facility (i.e. - 65 acres w/ 230 buildings) w/ 34.5 KV primary to 2300 V. distribution & four substations, so I have a little experience. (Been IBEW journeyman for 40 years and have trained many apprentices.)
You can't teach "common sense", but you can teach safety! If you can't afford to purchase the "tools of the trade" to do your work safely and effectively, then I guess you have to rent them. I have always bought.
Your advice is good. I would have followed up with checking resistance of the conductor "loops" created with an ESR meter. It can measure into the Milli-ohms range of resistance.
In the end, his temporary paralleling of the neutral was a quick way to verify his suspicions.
100% agree. I am an IBEW JW as well, coming up on 20 years
Yea I have been in the trade for a short time compared to you guys but I am licensed and I will tell you it is very hard to justify buying a megger when you primarily deal in residential
topflight408 I hear exactly what you're saying, but if you troubleshoot things like this even a few times a year, it will pay for itself by time saved. You could even buy an old analog cranking Simpson and it would work just as well and I've seen them in pawn shops and estate sales where the people don't know what they have just old electrical junk priced less than a basic multimeter that we all buy.
Plus, generally our contractor supply's meggers, but we supply our own multimeter etc.
xprocharged1 I completely agree. I purchased a Supco 500 Volt Megger on Amazon years ago and it works well to as you noted see and test the insulation integrity of the conductors. No longer a guess work situation. I've used it many times to test wiring. Great input.
Not an electrician, but a retired Fire Captain. Have worked with so many related issues pursuant Fire/Building code. This was a very interesting video and speaks well of all electricians who value their trade and Service offered.
Thanks for watching, that is really dangerous, I was shocked really bad when a plumber took the cold water electrode conductor off of the water pipe and I was working on the panel. There was no ground rods either.
Love your videos. Watching you troubleshoot and how you have deduced what the problems are has saved me so much time in my own investigations.
Glad to hear, hope they help. Not enough support in the electrical field.
Peterson Electric with my house, the furnace was wired into the recepticle on my living room circuit and my kitchen breaker controls the kitchen all upstairs rooms and the backporch which is a total of 5 rooms on a 20 amp breaker
Peterson Electric i wired an entire house once and i only had one light not work
I would pull a couple more 15 and 20 amp circuits after your trace this existing one out and than go ahead and divide the rooms that makes most sense.
That is good, I always test my circuits with pressure before the drywall goes up. This is what they do in plumbing when they are testing water and gas lines.
Awesome vid! Definitely not something you learn in trade school to the depth in how you explained it. It's great to see how open you are with your explanation. Like you said, not many share their trade "secrets". Not just anyone can do this, especially not the typical DIYer or wanna be "electrician" that thinks they know it all through YT alone. 👍🏽
Thanks for the info. Very helpful, even if I never run up against such a situation. I am considering buying a house in the neighborhood built around 40 years ago, so it gave me a few ideas of things to look for when doing the walk through.
Finally, someone in the field who knows what they are doing!! This is an excellent video. I've been on dozens of service calls with similar light flickering issues and your troubleshooting methods are spot on. The dryer is one of the places I always go to first depending on the customer's installed appliances. One of my biggest pet peaves has always been coming in and cleaning up someone else's shoddy, illegal or unpermitted work.
Thanks for watching, glad to help out.
That’s the disadvantage of direct burial cable. I always put it in pipe so that it does not become damaged as easily as direct burial
I thought if the lights flicker it can burn a house down?
Nice diagnosis. My [underground] neutral opened up suddenly and completely at Christmas time several years ago. Fortunately, we had a lot of family in the house, because several fires erupted spontaneously in various things, most notably surge protectors. Several receptacles actually blew out of the wall! It was good that we had a lot of people to put out the fires. Anyway, since the fault was on the utility company's side of the meter, I assumed that they would take care of things.
They claimed it was an "act of God" and refused my claim. Sadly, I was between homeowner's insurance companies at the time, so, I had to rewire my entire house on my own dime. If it had burned down, I would have been in deep trouble with the bank! I have been doing this for years, having wired my first house as an eight-year-old kid, and my work, even then, passed on first inspection! Well, the materials to fix everything cost several thousand dollars, and I needed new appliances, televisions, light fixtures, and so on.
Although I had no warning, the moral of this story is that, if you are seeing lights flicker and "bloom", get the problem fixed before your house burns down. Yes, it can happen to you!
By the way, I couldn't help thinking, "Richie Cunningham became an electrician!"
I ended up turning off the breaker. At the moment, gonna keep it off till I can get the power company or electrician to check this place out.
In my 50 plus years I have seen dad neutrals many times. You had the right idea, just replace the wires and put a disco outside. Great video.
@Peterson Electric help? We just bought a house, it was built in 1970. Things were fine for the first two months but in the third month, one circuit that controls the office, kitchen, dining room, back porch, the lights flicker, appliances turn on & off a bunch. What's weird is that this typically happens at night when we turn the lights off in the kitchen and office, but sometimes in the day too. The fridge and others turn off and on before turning off for good. We'll turn the lights back on, and after some hard flickering, they will stay on and the fridge, microwave etc. Come back on. Turn the lights out again and the appliances go back out. So we have to leave the lights on all night to prevent this. No heat or signs of overheating, burning, or melting, no smells behind the panel. The electrician said the panel is only 60 and needs to be more than double that, but he did not know about why leaving the lights on helps. Any idea? Utility company cleaned up some corrosion in the meter box, and replaced some outside wires from squirrel damage and said everything else looked good. It's been worse since then. We turned the furnace completely off once for a few days and things were fine, and we turned it back on. It started again, but now turning the furnace off again doesn't work. I am at a loss.
It is great to see someone going the super extra mile, real great lesson, thank you. At work we use this : Greenlee PE2003 Pulser Fault Locator (takes a while to master) and it can help you find a buried broken wire and also we can use this Spx Radiodetection Rd7000 Pl Cable Pipe Locator Rd Tx-3 Transmitter to get a ball on how the wire runs underground ( but it is a very expensive solution). Seen a lot of problems with loose connections inside panels, specially with aluminum wire. Thank you for the video.
to find a bad wire in the ground you need a fault meter it will find the break in the ground with in a foot. it will put 1000 to 2000 volts on that wire . the volts will leak out on that wire . the probes you stick in the ground will find the break. if you know the path of the wire under ground, you can find the break.
I work for call before you dig in Ohio and the equipment we use is a RD 8000 or 8100 from Radiodetection and they have an A-frame that can detected a burnout with in a few feet but a skilled locater can find a burnout without the A-frame by watching the depth and current reading on the equipment. I've help the local electric company find burnouts using my equipment when thumping did not work. Note; this does not work all the time.
As a new licensed electrician thank you for the trouble shooting advice.
Well if you watched the video close enough, you would see how small the Yard was and how the back yard slopes really bad, we were hopping to not have to trench, because it was very difficult to do.
She wanted us to diagnose it and “MAKE” certain this was the issue. If you “listened” to the video you would have heard that three other electricians and two meter guys could (NOT) fond the issue, But we did. So look closer before your say, duh!!!
Two area's worth checking, check hot legs coming off transformer, and check ground rod to earth and ground at the circuit panel. Where I live now, the power went ballistic and readings at the electric panel were all over the place. Called power company and when he arrived, I showed him the crazy numbers at the panel. He went to the transformer and found one of the hot legs had fell out of it's spring loaded holder. About 15 years ago at former home, similar story with erratic readings at panel and lights going nuts. Turned out I needed a new 8'ft grounding rod installed and new ground cable to circuit panel. In both cases, it was that easy. Another thing to check is the actual lines that run from transformer to circuit panel. The one thing I've learned about electricity is that it's predictable. When it goes haywire, start at the transformer and work back towards structure including ground rod to earth.
I agree with this, I have found a lot of older homes that do not have any grounding electrode conductors per 250.52. This is why in the video we simple ran #10 awg cu off of the van to just test the sub-feeder and it showed how it cleaned it up. WE than ran a larger ALM conductor until we could get back out there and trench it with inspections.
I am a HVAC tech by trade. I want to thank you for sharing. There are a lot of people in various trades who do not want to tell anyone what they know. They think, either you should have to learn it the hard way or they do not want you to know as much or as little as they do. I see it every day. Whether you are talking to a customer, someone interested, or a apprentice, you have no right to belittle them. Journeymen, I do not care if that is how you were treated, that does not give you a right to treat others that way. It is like saying because your Dad beat the crap out of you, that you must beat the crap out of your Son. Videos like this, may actually teach others in the trade as well as help others direct an electrician on something they did not think of. Thanks again for the video, it was long, but I understand why it needed to be. It would be a good video to show every apprentice in any state. Keep up the good work. By the way, with a 6 years of schooling in Electronics, I know ohm's law also. It caught me off guard a little when you said pressure, but you are right, it doesn't matter as long as everyone understands. So for the rest of you who have a problem with it, go back to your little holes.
Thank you. I helped a family build a house after their house burned many years ago. The house still has a weird flicker resembling what you described/showed. I don't know how it got wired, but now maybe I can help them bring an electrician in to resolve the problem. This bit of knowledge will help prevent a bad electrician from taking advantage--again.
Ours did the same thing at our Church, it was a Loose Neutral at Utility Pole.....
Need to correct your volume levels. Can barely hear you with volume maxed
Im very happy that you take time to do videos like this. Been an electrician is hard plus there's people that they feel like they know everything amd they DONT!
THX!
Thx
There's a lot of detail in being an electrician that many don't want to follow even if they know better.
I'm not even an electrician and this was the most interesting thing ever.
Thanks to you all on your suggestions on meters. I spent two hours on the phone with a Greenlee Rep on meters, he said the following;
“For underground tracing the line when power is on or off use the BLL-200”. $1,550
“When testing insulation values and or old bug splices or bad workmanship use the PE2003” $1,250
“When tracing inside of a building through boxes and panels and possible walls, use be CS8000” $850
I’ll let you know in a year once I get these meters for Christmas and what I find. This will take certain jobs to locate these specific problems. I spent a year researching these meters and specific tools for problems I’ve encountered.
I use a Fluke Pro3000 for toning out wires in walls and boxes. But I have issues with copper pipes with this meter.
I use a fluke meter for catching inrush current readings and true RMS voltage readings and it has an excellent clamp for amps.
I use a fluke thermal gun for readings.
CS 8000 will work for underground breaks I've found dozens with mine 👍
How did you find faults with the CS 8000, it stated it was for indoor use?
Even the GreenLee 2007 can locate underground breaks.
Sigh. The consequences of cheaping out, perhaps picking a contractor who said "nah, you don't need a permit for this". Now the poor owner who didn't even make that decision has to remodel part of their house to bring it back into compliance, at, no doubt, substantial cost. Too bad there's no way to stick whoever's to blame with the bill. =/
KooriShukuen really surprised a home inspection didn't catch that if she had it done before she bought the house. So sad.
I pretty sure you can use a megohm meter. The size of the wire or distance doesn't matter if your checking each wire to ground. Just disconnect both sides( meter and panel). Isolate each wire. Then test it to ground. If it's in the megohm and higher it's good. Below that you have a insulation problem. Correct me if I am wrong. Thanks
Awesome video. House was getting random flickering that could not be reproduced especially when electrician was here. He tested the neutral connections very well (one commenter said that they should have checked hots instead), but anyways everything was tight and we turned all high amp stuff on and no flickers. Later that day it started again. Electrician warrants his work and would find problem for us, but recomended to call power company to test their side since their service is free and also a necessary step in this case. They cleaned and tested/checked wiring at transformer on pole, wiring at ground pedestal in back of yard and connection to the meter on house (their side they are responsible for). They used a BEAST to pull a load and line was good on both 120's. The BEAST is connected for 5 seconds and draws a load for that same amount of time. Random flickers may or may not occur during that 5 seconds and I made a comment about that. He said lines are good and said he would have meter dept talk to us. Meter dept came out a week later and hooked a meter up for 7 days. They pulled the meter data and downloaded the data and rolled a truck to us (same guys as before) immediately this time there was evidence issue was on their side and not customer side. The issue was the ground pedestal (similar setup to this video except our meter is on the house and not ground pedestal like the video had. They removed the two hots and neutral and changed the metal block they tie down to. He said it was corroded because of water. (neighbor behind us flooded that area out a few months prior when his well sprung a leak) These were same guys that were out first time and I did see them check pedestal first time. I wanted to ask why they missed it the first time, but I never did. Flickering doesnt happen anymore. All 3 lines at pedestal were cleaned up block changed out. All good now. The flickering type I had was not the same as this video. Mine would occur sometimes, but not everytime a high amp device came on and my flickers were very random.
Yep, glad it was found, I've seen this happen as well.
Thank you, I ordered a BLL200 and a PE2003 they are made by Greenlee, we have two reps coming out to help us learn them tomorrow. I am excited, the ones I have rented for the past seven years from tool rental companies have not been so acute to finding the faults. These two tools come with three total units and it is an A-frame with the two boxes and a hand held locator. In this video it would of helped a little, but the issue was up under the footer of the outside of the new sunroom wall. Since, they did not sleeve this in PVC conduit, we are not able to re-pull the wire, and therefore it would of most likely lasted to replace the neutral bug, especially since the weight of the sunroom will shift. The best reason of re-trenching this is so the customer does not need to ever touch this again. Usually when someone calls us we find that the date is about five to ten years ago they had to mess with this. Anyways, we spent about $2,850 total with tax for those tools I listed above.
There is really a lot of tips you need to learn just doing it. I hope the greenlee rep gave you a good rundown and didn't just read the manual to you.
multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/30566O/cable-and-pipe-locating-techniques-manual.pdf?fn=Cable%20and%20Pipe%20Locating.pdf
3m has a really good guide, they make some of the better locators, but yours should be fine for power. 99% of this will apply exactly to your meter, you might be missing some of the frequencies, but the generalities about coupling and attenuation will hold true for higher vs lower frequencies on your transmitter.
You could have found it under the footer with the PE2003, see page 53 of that guide.
And really take to heart when the manual says to use a separate temporary ground stake. If you just use the PGE, you'll get RF coupling onto everything that's grounded to that electrode.
It's a good idea to megger the cable to earth (an isolated ground rod or juts a screwdriver stuck in the ground) before you start locating for the earth fault to make sure it's there and not something else. The megger should read hundreds of megs or max out if the insulation is good. If you're in single megs, you might have some generally shoddy insulation but it's not really bad enough to locate a fault in, locate the whole cable once and mark it with paint, then pour water on the whole thing and see if the megger can break down the insulation over a minute. I usually see 1k-50k ohm as a fault I'd feel confident locating.
... and I'm not sure you were well served by that rep. That's two products for doing the same thing that 3m does in one (Dynatel 2273) I will say the greenlee unit looks lighter. The 2273 gets heavy when you're swinging it around for a few hours.
Locating is hard enough that I'd dig a trench or two in your yard for training and bury some cable in it--put a few knicks in the insulation, remove some whole chunks of insulation, and break it in a spot, but almost touching. Put one section next to a chainlink fence if you can. This is all stuff you'll run into in the wild. Give everyone a go at locating, and see who picks it up the best.
You can also get a 'sonde' for locating empty conduits. 3m, ditchwitch, ridgid, jameson(tracer), and radiodetection are the other brands I can think of.
Thank You, for your video. It was very informative.
The people who built the extension onto the kitchen fail to do it the correct and legal way.
Great job on explaining how and what you did to troubleshoot the issue.
Hello, I stumbled onto this vid. To answer your question if nobody has? This works for "direct burial" wire runs, not when a wire is nicked and ran inside insulation conduit. Search "ground fault locator". It sends a pulsed voltage into the ground via a small ground probe/screwdriver. Then using an A-frame w/ mounted meter you work along the wire path and the meter reads the pulsed voltage via the probes on each end. The meter's needle will deflect you to the point and then when you go past, it will deflect the other way. The you turn the A-frame 90 degrees and do this to measure that direction. "X" marks the spot of your insulation break or leak to ground. Then dig it up and make your repair. Sometimes you need to use a wire tracer first. This way when using the A-frame you work along directly above the wire run. This equipment is fairly common and used by USA (underground service alert) Location companies, etc.
I'm a Overhead Lineman here in Mich, and if there are upgrades to the home, I check to see if Pex Plumbing is installed. Often the Plumber will "Unground " the house w/o understanding what a House Ground is. So make sure the House Grd is still connected to Elec panel and Cold Water Meter. Make sure the Cold Water Meter has Jumper Wire across it still, and that connectors are not corroded. Second, if this is the case, check the connections for this jumper wire for corrosion. At the outside Meter I notice Copper Wiring and a Aluminum Ground Lug. Two metals of different materials will cause corrosion. This is a major cause for Flickering Lights. It's takes about 5-6yrs to cause the Flickering Lights. This problem is so common, I put both my kids through college with the Overtime I've worked because of this. If this doesn't work, call the Utility, they will check their wiring for bad connections or Open Neutral. I hope this help, STAY SAFE! Good vid.
We won’t respond to unprofessional comments, I will delete you from my channel so you can not see us anymore.
I understand the ohms law chart, who am I trying to impress , You? Really. I am trying to bring it down a notch so they “92% of general public” understand what I am saying.
Yes - pressure is the same as voltage and the same as the “potential” that is present.
Juice same as amps.
You people get caught up in terms, ive Been doing this for 20years, sit in all my continue educational classes, 32 to 40 hours every code cycle. The key to making money in service is “how to communicate” to your customer. I us to be the journeyman who showed up everyday at 7:30 am and bent pipe for years, this does not impress people, what helps make a living is how to explain what is simple for them to understand.
If I scare you turn me off!
Good video thanks. I once saw a documentary where a New York utility used a radio frequency detector to locate shorts and bad connections ( the arking gives off a radio signal). I am not an electrician. I just know enough to be dangerous.
I liked it! I spent around 28 years working as an Aircraft Electrician where there are many similarities and many differences. Pressure wasn't a term we used, but it was easy enough to figure out what you were talking about. Thanks!!
Im not an electrician but have replaced outlets and light fixtures. I missed something though, if the wire going out to the the feed is the problem, how is more electricity coming in to the house at times? is it because the wire is deteriorating and the voltage is trying to push through harder cause it needs somewhere to go, like an electrical storm?
Yes, thank you very much for explaining this serious prlblem in terms we can all understand.
I've been in the electrical trade since 1980. I find this video very informative. Kudos to your knowledge and presenting this video. On a side note I have dealt with similar problems where the neutral was the problem. One case involved a pole mounted transformer feeding several townhouses where the house cold water ground was removed and no ground rod installed.
This guy really knows his trade, as a currently apprentice electrician , I'd like to work for him.
Thanks for watching, do you work in CO?
@@Petersonelectricllc No, I currently work in California.
Nice state to visit, but too expensive to live
You’re a good electrician. I enjoy your videos. When I worked in the field I heard of people using a hi-pot to “thump” the feeders. It sends a heavy surge through the wire causing the electric to seek ground. That would make the ground shake/jump close to the bad spot in the wire.
Simple - the neutral at the panel lost ground connection from the source, and was relying on earth and circuit distribution balance between legs.
By the way, the two legs are not A phase & B phase. Both 120VAC sides of a single-phase 240VAC service are the same phase. It's A leg and B leg.
Thanks
Is this why in my RV there is two 120 volts but on the same leg? my RV needs 240 volts on the AC 50 amp plug at the park.
So the RV only utilizes one of the legs, but sends out two circuits on the same leg?
Humm, that is what my RV tek said to me last year, does a twist on your mind.
Many RV parks only have 240 V split phase, just like in your house. If the RV only requires 120 V, often they have to use the 240 V plug and cord, but the electrical panel only has one leg connected.
No! Did you watch the video? We ended up trenching new lines with permits, WAS NOT A WAIST! This is what the customer asked for and what NO ONE ELSE COULD FIND!l we resolved everything, with inspections
So the problem was as you originally suspected? A Knicked neutral?
I have used an am radio and tuned it to a radio station that has a clear signal ( little to no interference.) Then start at meter and walk along the buried wires and listen for a change in the signal. If you hear an increase in interference at a certain spot it is most instances the bad spot
Kevin Mc interesting
Dimitris Zarmakoupis The higher the voltage, the better it works. Try it in your car as you drive alongside high voltage power lines.
Thank you for your input, this issue was a broken splice underground by the slab. The point of the #10 white Neutral that we ran on top of the ground from the panel to the main disconnect at the backyard, was to prove that even such a small wire corrected the issue. This help me reassure that I needed to trench and we reach arranged everything with an inspection and put a disconnect outside,. The scary thing is that she didn’t have any grounding electrode conductor‘s and we had to run to ground rods and one water bond with the intersystem bonding Bridge bar. If she had had these I wonder if the call Would’ve gone much different and the symptoms looked different.
Peterson Electric I’m sure you know that the neutral only carries the difference of the current of the 2 hot legs. If both legs current are exactly equal there is no current in the neutral. Since that is practically impossible there would be some neutral current. That current normally goes through neutral conductor or if possible an unintended path back to transformer. I assume that current was going out on the neutral wire to the fault at which point it found a ground path back to the service panel. Having a properly grounded panel may have stabilized it a bit, but if you get where I’m coming from it wouldn’t have been much different than having the neutral wire in the ground open to the earth. Both would have provided a poor return path, but would have been different than no path at all.4
Ok just found it, broken splice under the slab so I guess the settling of the slab broke the splice?
Thanks, I hope I was not rude in the video, just seen too many HO try to do work and damage or need to rewire things. What amazes me is how many calls I get that start out with, "I'm wiring my basement and I need you to do the hard work and just wire the sub panel, we will do the easy work for the plugs, lights and switches". We will not energize a non licensed HO work. It is like us going to a professional mechanic and telling them we'll use their equipment and shop and do the oil change while they work on the water pump and belts. LOL!
Keep in mind that it is cheaper to do testing in someone’s home with a hairdryer, than to use their appliances and have them burn out on your service call, the customer may make you pay for it, though this is their problem and house.
Peterson Electric
I arrived at work one day found a power strip with a built in circuit breaker had been completely on fire lots of smoke. I measured 307 volts on a 110 volt 20 amp circuit. After opening the 6th outlet in a string we found a loose melted wire but on the neutral wire. Once we cleaned up installed new but voltage returned to normal 122 volts
The reason the temporary works is the wire it is in the open and will get plenty of cooling. This could even be something like a drywall screw piercing the insulation of the neutral. In the low voltage world, I have seen plenty of battery cables get a pinhole in them. This is where corrosion can start. Interesting that the corrosion can happen in the cable even away from automotive liquids. If the corrosion did take two years, that lines right up with the add on.
307 volts? That reading is impossible on an unbalanced (broken neutral) 240 volt electrical service unless you are overseas.
Besides, you can never underestimate the feeling of having great hair. ...
Sorry, I'll get my coat. I know my way out.
James Jedamski u will get funny voltage when u start losing a nuetral
Hi I'm Michael I really like your videos and I learned a lot from them.
In my second home, I would experience a brown out. Usually lasting 5 minutes. No flickering. Just a dimming of lights. One very hot day, brown out, and stayed. I called the power company. They came right out. Where I lived, they were responsible all the way to the meter. They did a check, and meter was not getting enough. Eventually they found that the wires on the pole transformer were loose. They figured the nuts were never torqued. He asked if I noticed on windy days. Thinking about it, yes. He said that had I not called, the transformer might have blown in the next storm. And as I was next to last on the line. I might have had to wait a week or more. Fix most customers first. Loners have to wait. Not that I like that, but is realistic.
This past year, power went out at night. A few blocks away, one of those poles that had a pull down breaker. The lock was cut. They installed a critter cam after the second time. Three kids thought it was cute to cut power to a few homes. They got caught. And identified. Law has them now.
Just thought these may be helpful in the future for you.
we bought a double wide already lived in on a lot. the under ground feeders were gone. my step son and i ran new pvc conduit under ground from the meter to the box in the trailer. we pulled 3 2 awt copper conductors from meter to box, connected all up and had an inspection, all was approved and turned on. now all the lights in my bedroom and bath room would flicker. we had power company test power 3 X. police came by suspected us of running a grow house, needless to say we were not. 6 months down the line i found someone when connecting the neutrals had 1/2 wire & 1/2 insulation under the neutral bar screws, this is what was causing the flickers. we loosened the neutrals and re-positioned the conductors and re-tightened them and all problems solved.
Like we used to teach during surgical training: "Do a good operation, get good results. Do a crappy operation, nobody knows what will happen".
Great job Peterson. Keep it up.
Thanks, hope to help other tradesmen, can’t learn this in electrical school.
yes you can, you have got to have a good seasoned instructor.
What electrical school? I have not seen any in Texas and heard you have to get a apprentice license (which is no test and just a fee) and work or a master electrician for so many years until you can get a journeyman license then eventually a master electrician license after 10 years I think.
@@BigDish101 local community college has an Industrial Apprentice curriculum which the Big Three such as General Motors sends their apprentices to, also the construction union IBEW has their own curriculum as well. This is the classroom training part of the apprenticeship, which goes with the four year on the job training, in order to qualify to get your journeyman license. In lieu of union apprenticeship, you can still qualify for your license by working under the supervision of a master electrician for a certain amount of hours, a longer period than the four years involved in a formal apprenticeship program, and also go through the same classroom training on your own dime, which will reduce the total hours worked requirement. Your local or regional licensing board determines if you've met the requirements, upon reviewing your application, and if so, they will let you take the test. Once receiving your journeyman license, you can take the Master License test (much harder than the journeyman) after a two year wait. This is the way it was for me here in Michigan anyway, back in the late 80's early 90's, good luck to you.
I enjoyed your video and especially the diagnostics. I am not an electrician, but as a homeowner have relocated and upgraded the service entrance panel to my home (permitted and inspected by the county). Prior to that, in a situation related to yours, I was surprised when my mother left the den to warm her coffee in the microwave in the kitchen to see the den lights and TV "brighten" while the microwave operated. I got her to repeat the effect. I reversed the process plugging a clothes iron into the den circuit, brightening the kitchen lights. I tested and found voltages "see-sawing" between circuits similar to yours. Alarmed, I consulted several electricians and the county electrical inspector. After a lot of pondering I seized upon the common line and discovered it "floating" about 35V above ground (referenced to the well side piping of the water pump). Investigation of the building service (60A, no main, 4 15A breakers) ground found the 1940's above-ground connection to the ground rod corroded off and hanging free. Problem solved -- with a bit of head scratching. Service entrance panel relocation, upgrade, and circuit additions and splitting followed. Oh, with an upgraded building ground. :)
I went through something similar a while back, I had 93-95 volts on B phase and 129-134 on A phase at the line side of the meter, I had a fight with Duke Energy to get them to come out about it, I had checked for loose/burned lugs on the meter socket, the cut off breaker outside, and the mains in my panel, also checked for loose screws and bolts on the busbars, I wanted to verify all was tight and clean before I called them, yet they still insisted that there was nothing wrong with their equipment, their basis was because I was the only person with that issue. I finally was able to get them to come out, turns out it was "white death" on the neutral feeding my house back near the transformer, both hot phases weren't much better, all of the aluminum was severerly corroded and the insulation was cracked and flaking off. They did something similar to what you did with the #10 wire, only they ran a #6 bare copper to the neutral in my neighbor's meter socket to get me temporary power until they came out about 10 days later and dug up my back yard to run all new mains from the transformer to my meter. Fortunately I have 3/0 copper going from the load side of the meter to my panel that's all in conduit so that should last the life of the house hopefully.
The previous home owner must have done that addition themselves because no licensed contractor would have done that work so far out of code. I bet there is a lot more about that addition that is not to code.
In South Africa we use Steel Wire Armoured cable (SWA) and if you need to know where the fault is, you thump it. th-cam.com/video/wZlNsM017BU/w-d-xo.html
When I encounter fluctuating voltages and especially different fluctuating voltages on different phases, I always check neutral first. Over here our neutral is connected to earth at the meter and so a simple check would have been to check voltages between neutral and earth in the panel. Bear in mind that our 3 phase installations run at 400V (phase to phase) and single phase (or phase to neutral) runs at 240V. We do not only run two phases into a building, it is either single or all three phases.
It is admirable that you want to share knowledge and it is great that it leads to discussions like these.
BTW, we also used to downsize the neutral conductor on 3 phase installations because under normal loads, the neutral load is reduced, but with the increase in high power electronic devices like inverter drives and switched mode power supplies, we have found that there is a (ghost) harmonic load in the neutral conductor that can in extreme cases exceed the phase loads. We are thus going back to full size neutral conductors.
Do you mean a "ghost" harmonic of your supply frequency or an anomalous harmonic related to the SMPS devices in use ? Would appreciate if you could clarify what "harmonic load" refers to. Thanks.
I had a lengthy chat with an engineer that's responsible for a project I'm managing and he was telling me why we couldn't downsize the neutral conductor on a parallel 150mm square SWA supply. He was saying that the electronics these days tend to generate a return on the neutral that was a harmonic of the supply. I may be wrong but the way I understood it was that it was a different frequency than the supply and as such wasn't being cancelled out by the balancing of phases... I will ask him about it again when the project kicks off again after the holidays and see if my understanding is correct.
Thanks Gaz, that makes sense now. I'm in electronics engineering myself, started out as an electrical technician originally. I know exactly what this means. SMPSs generate output at about 20kHz approximately for the average SMPS design. Some higher, some lower. Depends on the manufacturer. As we approach the lower end of the RF spectrum, AC coupling between conductors will generate noise and, as you call it "ghost signals" in ajoining conductors. Very hard to get rid of in some instances. I worked with Military wiring installations to Tempest specifications a while ago. That's even more stringent due to security problems in telecommunications equipment coupling into power wiring.
Your quick reply is much appreciated.
In the US, we don't use 2-phase power, we use center-tapped single-phase 240v 60hz in residential installations. With very few exceptions, 3-phase power is limited to commercial and industrial installations.
Thomas Bonse, surely that is the same as using two out of the 3 phases.
I remember 3-4 years ago we had a brownout for 10 minutes or so. I hurried up and shut the main breaker off just to be safe until the power went back to normal.
I'm a retired high voltage lineman, 40 years. This does not make me an electrician. Here in Ca you can not drive a ground rod at a subpanel, due to circulating volotage and amperage.. The difference in potential can cause the Neutral to hog the load of both pannals. Just a thought.Great video.
I think keeping a “captains’ Log” is needed. You need to know at what days, time of days, storms, water-wind-snow, these events are taking place.
I once rented an expensive meter ($650 for 30 days) I rented for a church on a three phase system, to do a log for an electrical engineer, they wanted more than utility bills, so we used a three phase amp clamp + neutral, digital read out , to know what each phase was acting like and see their Peak and low times.
What if, another shop or store is effecting yours? And it only happens at certain times because their business hours differ. I would ask the power company to come out with a map so you “KNOW” who is on the same tap as your transformer.
Also, ask your neighbors if they are seeing thinks fry and at certain times, maybe it’s effecting all of you. Maybe it’s just yours.
Is there oil leaking around a huge green transformer pad?
This might say 75 KVA up to a 200 KVA, maybe undersized to a 25 or 50?
If it’s not a pad mounted transformer maybe there is three cans on a pole and they looked rusted, maybe they Arc when the wind picks up? Could be a lose connection on the pole.
What is your voltage reading on all panels, lugs, disconnects for line and load. Does it match when you turn on items and put “pressure” on the system by using a lot of current, use a thermal gun and look at each connection when on and off .
Last, check your panels. Make sure your are present when the field meter man comes out and an electrician, maybe you line them up together.
If your frying a three phase convert, (add a leg, motor or brushless) I have wired this in the past, see if the issue is on your lower volt side (120v-240) single or delta three phase, or see if it is on the 277-480 volt (Y) side, maybe he bonding jumper is lose in the step up transformer or there is a lose tap.
This is not easy to find.
So, "IF" you know how to and "IF" they allow you to look behind the panel cover you can check voltage, but if they will not allow you too than you can simple turn everything on in the house and have someone turn on and off lighting and keep appliances turned on and see if you see flickering. This will help you know that there is wear on the electrical system. I would do a visual inspection of the load center and also see if water is getting in to any equipment. You could also look at the bottom of the panel and see if any mice have been living in there. I would also look to see if they have a cold water grounding electrode conductor by the main water shut off valve and also if there is an inter system bonding bridge bar or one or two ground rods present with a solid number #6 or larger secondary grounding electrode. Also, there are some real standard plug testers to see how the plugs are wired in the house, assuming it has three prongs. You can also trip and check GFCI circuits. If you are in the seventies or late sixties you might want to look for Aluminum in the panels or plugs and switches. If you have Aluminum in the plugs and copper in the panels or vis verse, than you know you have dissimilar metals mixed somewhere. If there is diox applied to the Buss bar or breakers than ban NEWS.
I've found Aluminum wiring from the early 70's, the aluminum oxide paste was dried up, in the attic area in J Boxes and arched, burn marks on the wires.Stripped back the damaged area re-applied jell & new nuts. Ready to go for another 50 years.
I bought(1975) a previously owned house in Cheyenne WY and discovered living room lights flickering when my wife ironed in this room. Long story short, the aluminum wiring was loose in most of the outlets, which were not approved for al. I tightened all outlets, using an approved paste. Two years later when removing the refrigerator for replacement, the outlet was half burned away; the connection had welded itself and stopped the resistance heating and possibly an interior wall fire.
No, in CO. There are realtor “inspectors” and they are only certified or less, our state does not require licensing for them. Unfortunately!
Good explanations! Good video! A-PLUS!
120/240 volt electrical systems (residential) have only one phase! The two hot are legs off the center tap transformer with the center tap being neutral but all of it is Single/One phase NOT Two! You keep referring to 2 phases but you should be saying two legs (A leg--B leg) Flickering lights look for a problem with the neutral connection other wise good video.
Technically correct. Called 240 volt single phase
Then you would get 110 VAC between A and B if they are both off the center tap. In order for A to Neutral to be 110 VAC and A to B to be 120 VAC they need to be different phases.
A leg to Neutral (Center tap of transformer) is 120 V--B leg to Neutral is 120 V-- A -leg to B- leg = 240 V..all Single phase..A & B leg voltages are being created by the primary high voltage and that is a single phase current. The A & B legs are in phase (Phase being a relationship of one thing to another referenced to TIME) with one another, A & B are at opposite polarities (IE: when A is positive B is negative and vis versa). The problem seems to be with the term/word Phase, folks confuse phase with voltage. The beauty of the center tap transformer is that it allows you to have as many different secondary voltages as you have legs but all of those different voltages are still going to be in phase with one another (1 phase in = 1 phase out)
Don't confuse Phase with Polarity of the legs and that seems to be the crux of this issue. I have had this discussion with many folks over the years it's a very common thing.
Michael Seyssens your absolutely correct but I can tell you I’ve been in the trade a long time and most guys say a and b phase
My own house had everyone stumped just like this one -right up until we lost one whole leg at the main disconnect to the service panel. I just happened to be looking at it when the main melted and I lost the panel. After a lot of wire & circuit tracing we had to condemn the entire electrical system in the house. The house was built in the early 1900s and could never pass even the most modest of code requirements. Poor patchwork, misc-matched wire gauges -to the wrong circuits, incorrect grounds and bonds... A nightmare. We moved out of the house to a safer home while we plan out a complete demo of the old place to put in something new. Glad the old house never burned down on us, but it certainly was heading that direction. In fact I had the power company pull the meter and then I stripped the house down.
Sir good morning and God bless you. Excellent video, deep appreciation for your willingness to share such a problematic issue and solution.
I disagree, people have their priorities and they put things down at the bottom of a list, I bought my house new back in 99’ for $140k. It does not now have all the newer updates and energy saving codes. But, I think it is better to keep a property and gut it and make it right. People just want to afford what they want, they want to “think” their a great DIY guy, than dump their experience or lack of licensing on the next HO Home owner and get their “profit”. The reason why there is 14,000 hours to get your time to test out and also 4yrs at a trade schools is because of how hard it is to be an electrician, but let’s face it we make nothing compare to dentists and Doctors, and Car dealerships and RV Tecks, yet people think we make too much. I do not think home inspections should be so soft in the state of Colorado, I Think if there is that much profit, we pros should get paid to look at those houses and a city insp (not the want to be inspector from the referee of a realtor) should get paid to pull permits and see if any permits were pulled. That young couple buying Someone else’s problems just took a loan for 30yrs on your profit, not ok!
They're changing the regulations here in the UK to require an earth (ground) rod on each installation (didn't used to be required on TN-C-S and TN-S systems). Good point about the spa connection.
With reference to finding a severed line or fault... I'd definitely go with a TDR. In this particular case, (I realize the video is 6 months old now but might help someone else)... I'd pull the neutral off at each end, megger it to ground to see if you have a ground on one end or both ends (due to water ingress). If so there are ways of injecting tone into the cable and testing it with a receiver (often used in telecomms)... but with the fault likely being under the addition, probably wouldn't be worth your time.
Thank you for your input, I am looking for a megger meter, any brands you like?
As I'm in the UK, my suggestions for brand may be off for the US... but either Megger itself (still around) or Fluke insulation testers are 'industry standard' here. No real particular models, as even a very basic model will do 95% of what you need.
Thanks I love my Fluke meters!
Same in the Netherlands, I use the fluke 1507.
We have what we call a 'meterkast', a cabin with the meters for electric/gas/hot and cold water/ heating, which you must have. Funny that in US, you can not have the meter(s) in a cabin.
I think the tradition varies by country very much. In the UK it's usual to find the meter anywhere they could fit it (in houses that pre-date the introduction of power)... such as under the stairs (a favourite and a nightmare to work on the distribution board!), the hallway (a little better) or, if you're lucky, in an attached garage, with plenty of room to work.
Don't paid mind to trolls and haters. Just block them.
I had a single circuit do this to me one time but me the solution was much easier than your circumstance. At the panel, the neutral was not tight under the screw and the connection was poor/intermittent. On that closet, if i were the inspector and saw that, I would tell the homeowner to rip that wall down. That panel has nowhere close to the 36" inch minimum of clear working space in front of it.
For temp power, I have punched a hole through the inside wall before and out through the exterior block and siliconed the gaps. Wasn't too hard at all to repair afterward when permanent power came in.
When you stated 240 v. A/C cleaned it up I knew it was a faulty ground. Don't feel bad. I bought a home built by an *electrician* (aka "shirt tail builder.") Everything was grounded to a galvanized cold water pipe which brought in the house water. Pipe started to leak/had to change it. Turns out the *only ground* for entire house was *that 30" length of buried galvanized pipe connected to PVC water main* ! Changed out the leaker and drove in a 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod . =No more drama.
This lose of phase happened in 1981. What was I supposed to record it with?
I was a baby, and I bet Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'" and Toto's "Africa" were on radio every day, wow, just wow. ;) I was born on November 5, 1980 ;)
Proper terminology is important
It can be lifesaving.
I agree. The devil's in the details, especially in a mature trade such as this. _Grounded_ versus _Grounding_ conductor, for example.
Being an engineer in the UK , I find your film here very interesting as we have different codes and votages , we are on 50 Hz and you are on 60 Hz . My skills are high voltages 600v down to 24v low voltages testing and finding problems , wet old cables are a problem at times doing cold store's ice makes it very interesting when you are doing heating rods on evaporation units and lights heating doors bands.As an engineer doing plant work ie take machines to bits and generators testing armature and doing 10 minute load tests on coils and motors at 1000vdc .All engineers of any kind are doing there best to help keep all people safe .Keep up the good work over there I did like you cable patch lead out side to the 125Amp brake to the in put consumer unit you could have disconnected the bad cable under the ground at both ends put a dc load on it and get a ground pick up hand tester like a metal detector to find the hot spot on the cable.
A couple decades ago, my manager cut through a water pipe and the A/B voltages immediately imbalanced. The building had been relying on the water pipe continuity to neighboring houses to return the neutral current to the shared transformer.