ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this episode of Layer by Layer, we discuss some shortcomings we made with this recent batch of filament and why we believe transparency is important. We also provide a more detailed plan for the Slant 3D Testing Lab, and discuss recent news involving AnkerMake' new 3D modeling software, and BASF shutting down Sculpteo.
🔔 Don't forget to like and subscribe to Slant 3D for more mass production 3D printing content!
00:00 AnkerMaker Releases 3D Modeling Software
01:35 BASF Shutting Down Sculpteo
03:37 We Screwed Up Filament
10:07 Special Print Settings for Our PLA
12:54 Trying Our Best to be Transparent
20:01 IMPORTANT: Why We Want to Build a Testing Lab
30:54 API v2 is Coming
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Can you please do a No Spool version so i can just reuse my bambu labs spools and save the environment and save you some money too!!!
I think they will have to figure out how to do that but I think that would a great option for a lot of people
Yes, please! Even if the savings aren't entirely passed on to the customer, I'd love to be able to reuse my Sunlu spools with a better filament!
I’m with you. I wish we had more refill options for bambu spools
100% agree!! We 3D print so we can make objects out of thin air, I have no problem printing a spool or two or three, especially reusable spools.
No reason we shouldn't settle on a standard spool size, especially if we can all save money and waste by reusing spools.
I was involved in a startup in the early 80's, bringing up manufacturing of a product nobody had made before. Wow. Thank you so much for letting the world know that if this was so damn easy, anybody could do it! Another day, and something new bites you in the ass! Learn, grow, and share! Thank you and look forward to learning more!
I would absolutely pay for a Kickstarter since part of my job is writing specs for 3D printed parts for our company. The lack of clarity and data in printing that isnt "print it and destructive test each iteration" is honestly pathetic. I would love to see robust UV and fatique testing of PLA, ABS, PETG, and ASA. Also, maybe a suggestion to work with ASTM and maybe some bigger companies that would benefit from it. People sleep on 3D printing because many people arent serious including many 3D printing companies. Its companies like yours that i regularly point our interns to when inspiring them to take this all seriously and design accordingly. Keep it up
Thank you!
Suggestion for subscriptions: Have a "I want this material, I don't care about color" option (for folks who do functional/prototyping stuff, where there's going to be a couple printed to check size/fit/function before making a 'good' one), which might help with 'we get X spools per batch, and we have demand for X-1 spools of this color'.
All 3 rolls of clear filament were punctured. I threw them all in a sealed bag with silica. I have printing with one roll almost non-stop since delivery, I have hadn't had any problems and the filaments looks good! I guess I'm one of the lucky ones
Same, I did respool mine because they didn't fit under the lid of the AMS. Glad they brought up the winding issue on the podcast, some room for improvement there.
I feel like another direction you could go that would reduce your costs and make it even more transparent is to work with NSF or NIST and a university providing funding to a PhD student or masters student(s). This would make it so you wouldn't have to buy the equipment, the working relation to the university means you could possibly always send a person to test samples with their equipment (most likely nicer) and have a person solely dedicated to this work. By the end of it, you would also have a person you know you can hire if you so choose.
Heat resistance is the biggest weakness of amorphous PLA. I'm excited about your selection of Ingeo 3D850. The cool thing about 3D850, is that it has a higher hardness/modulus/strength than 3D870.
The lab idea sounds fantastic, but it has a huge issue: the filament brands themselves are not consistent with their products. A filament that works perfectly today, can be replaced in the same brand by another with different characteristics, so I don't know how useful a test with that depth would be.
Also, please give us a European reseller of your products!!!
Wouldn't it be great to test each brand every year to see if they are staying honest?
@@slant3dthat would be awesome!
And I second the suggestion of a European reseller, I'd definitely order a couple of spools to try out.
If you have time and resources for that, I am all in @@slant3d
Yes please +1 for a European shipment center/ reseller
I've received spools in a similar box, and the solution that was used was a thin 9x9 piece of card paper between them. I don't know if that would be cheaper or not in the end, but it seemed to work fine.
I was thinking a couple pieces of printer paper might be sufficient
I would love to see a series on how you calibrate your machines, and how accurate you can parts get with said calibration process. Like what are your tolerances?
so great you are creating a repository of material technical data to inform strength of printed parts, infill patterns, etc. This kind of very useful data helps the industry grow and improve quality/engineering standards. Thank you!!
The testing lab is interesting. There are so many things accepted and repeated as fact with zero basis in the hobby space of 3d printing. Especially if you get into the less common filaments like HIPS.
Love this.!! ❤ honesty first.
Everyone makes mistakes. Even the best of the best..
But anouncing this for the world to see is different. Hudge hudge respect! Keep it up.
I would throw in for a kickstarter. In my opinion, the data you collect with these tests should be open, available for download in an open format so others can build the knowledge into their own workflow. I'd be happy to help advise on the format and a build website to host the results if you don't want to do it in house.
That sounds great
With this spool, it does not fit into a Bambu Labs AMS unless you do the Hydra upgrade and even then, the lid does not close. Saying that, I have really liked how my prints have turned out with this filament. First time I had tree supports that did not have arms that break off into tiny pieces during removal. Stupid strong prints and I look forward to making more stuff with this filament.
Thanks so much. We are working on the spool problem.
@@slant3d thanks for fixing the front page email link as well.
Apart from CNC Kitchen, another channel doing semi-scientific testing of filaments is My Tech Fun. I can wholeheartedly recommend it.
Agreed. He's also not using industry standard, or even particularly rigorous, testing methods, but he's doing the same tests for everything, so it's nice for making comparisons.
Suggestion, put links to tangled and angle in each video description. Love the vids, take care.
Definitely interested in the lab stuff. And although CNC Kitchen is great content - the last time he measured filament strength appears to be 8 months ago, when he tested filament colors? He's been making different kinds of content recently.
If you're going to be testing specific manufacturers - two I'd like to see are Polymaker and Inland. Polymaker's filament advertising is *everywhere*, they're hard to miss and they sponsor a lot of TH-cam channels as well. Inland is essentially Micro Center's brand, and annoyingly enough it's hard to get good information about their filament.
Sounds like a good idea
This is so cool, from the "consumer focused open communication and focus" and even the willingness to establish an actual "engineering standard". I'd like to help however I can, but I wish I could actually help in the work and use my degree somehow
But yeah, seriously, are yall hiring?
All 3 of the spools I ordered were also punctured but it seems they rubbed against each other so vigorously that it created fragments of black material from the spool and it got mixed up into the loose filament. I had to respool them with a filament cleaner to get rid of all the residue and dust that stuck to the filament. Other than that, the filament printed ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL and was surprisingly strong. I LOVE the transparency of everything you're doing and will continue to support you guys!
You do the standards test, I'll contribute some. We need it not just in the video, but on a web site. Thanks!
Already part of your subscription. The updates on the filament and your response is amazing. If you match dollars so you have skin in the game, I would be willing to put down $100 or more towards getting standards created!
I'm just getting myself started into the 3D printing world and I got to say the lack of standardized anything is kind of frustrating as everybody and their mother has opinions I would love to support you and then thereby the community start getting some standardized numbers on these things.
I’ve only printed with one other clear PLA and it was terrible. I’ve been printing with all 3 of my rolls, and it’s been pretty good! My only complaint is the plastic spools are very thick and bulky, they will not fit in the AMS, and you will need to transfer it to another spool to use it. It is very clear, prints pretty easy, (def follow the bed temp recommendations) for a first launch of filament there’s certainly potential!
Great to know. As someone who prints primarily out of an AMS this is a major consideration point for me.
@@OmegaGamingNetworksame here
Oh man I love the community engineering database idea. Totally get the crowdfunding aspect as it's the broader industry that benefits from reliable data. I for one would absolutely chip in a hundred bucks to that effort, it's sorely needed.
Thank you
Interesting. My PLA is wet all the time and breaks so easily until it's dried. I do print in the room with the washing machine but I dont really have a choice.
Update- they made it right with me. I am still unsure what the cause might have been, would be nice to know.
2 of my spools are entirely unusable due to warping. The third prints exceptionally well.
I have posted on the blog and sent an email but have had no help with a solution on the unusable filament.
Thanks. I will forward this to the team as well. We will get the two spools refunded. Make sure that you sent across your order number with the email.
I appreciate the hell out of the transparency here.
Oh the joys of unintended consequences in manufacturing! Good luck with the others that are surely coming your way.
I appreciate what you're trying to do here and I think you do an excellent job of explaining things. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much.
Growing pains aren't going to prevent my subscription. I'm excited to see this through!
I'm in on the test equipment Kickstarter. I love that kind of content.
Oh, yeah my filament came with the vacuum bags punctured and I didn't worry about it. The spool being a little bit too big and spooled a little too loosely for the Bambu AMS was the only problem I had, but I respooled the material.
You are trying to tackle the combinatorial explosion of testing. Can't be done for software testing where it is cheap, it is tilting at windmills when trying to do physical testing. Please just come up with a couple of the most important dimensions to try to come up with a few generally applicable rules for those issues.
Awesome!
I would support the Kickstarter.
Sounds really interesting!
Awesome, thank you!
Having a testing lab is very interesting . My interest as simple hobbyists would be what is worth investing in to handle different materials on largely one off curiosity driven projects that would otherwise just be non starters. I might suggest that if you are linking it with crowdfunding you set up a degree of independent governance - especially if you looking at your own and competitors filaments. In effect making you primary sponsor of say a company limited by guarantee (there are quite a few such models but transparency of process and publication of output and independence pretty key to such testing lab style arrangements). Just a thought , I realise it adds legal and managerial complexity but thinking about it at the beginning is a lot easier than retrofitting and will make the on run commercials cleaner and clearer to attract crowd funding and other commercial sponsors.
Lol. I have received boxes of filament where the spools were broken and the jagged pieces pierced the bag.
I would have been thrilled if all I had to do was dry out some filament.
I would definitely be in for kickstarter. Appreciate what you guys are doing.
NASA, ASTM, SAE, ASME, ISO and universities like Penn State & UTEP are all working together to implement AM standards across the board. I’m an actual aerospace engineer and my DoD employer has been sending us to UTEP to take their AM certifications / training for FDM, SLA and Powder Bed Fusion applications. It’s very informative and there is a lot that going on behind the scenes that consumers don’t know and best practices in general. There should be ISO, ASME and NASA published standards online that could help assist you with your testing and research you are trying to do.
As a PhD student in the space, I agree that there is a lot of work being done. My university has projects for standards, algorithms, solving hybrid problems, etc. One more organization to add to your list is NIST. With the increasing commonality of AM, reduction in cost and the move towards a greener future, money is being dumped into AM.
Have you tried taping the spools together with packing tape to prevent them moving on each other? Also buying an air cushion machine to fill the inch space?
Also do you plan on doing other subscriptions, such as bimonthly or longer?
I have a model printed by them and it looks amazing!
Awesome. Thanks
In regards to the filament issues, this seems to be happening with many "cheap" and corner-cutting manufacturers, even US-based. Which, to be clear I am not saying you are, seems you actually care and are working on the issue, but lately in my 3D groups people are getting upset at the under-10 spools. I would say at least 3 companies are being brought up, routinely. For example, one person bought 50+ spools, and they said only about half arrived intact. Broken bags, spool holders, dirty filament, and so on. Another bought almost 70 from another company, and less than a dozen were intact.
Even though it adds cents to each order, a thin cardboard box outside of the vacuum bag really seems to help. As you talked about, unless the box is just right for the number of spools, and there is no wiggle room, they will move and can shatter the holders.
Perhaps partially unrelated a topic of discussion, hopefully not, but from working at a warehouse, I've seen one packaging by a vendor where they 3d printed the housing for it that both made it super easy to store as well as count the current quantity of metal ringed parts that they manufacture. I've been meaning to ask for some time now on packaging in general. Specifically dealing with how 3d printing small insertable parts before sealing these in would help smoothen sealed packaging to avoid tears and otherwise around in this case the center spool hole that can also be easily removed once opened back up. In general, it seems like a nice idea to have a custom enclosure to ensure parts being moved around internally and externally can help reduce cost of shipping by having reusable housings that could also have identifiable NFC/RFID tagging for quick identification/processing whether in the lid or otherwise.
Thank you for the input. One question, how do you anneal PLA. filament??? Much appreciated if you can answer this.
sure on the crowd funding!
Kickstart sounds good I just hope it gets the reach it deserves and that big fishes also gob into it
This all sounds so exciting... It would be really cool for you to colaborate with Stefan... Don't know if there are difference with Europian and USA norms...
Regarding the filament, this explains why the 2 packs I get from some vendors have a super thin piece of cardboard between the spools.
Bring on the kickstarter!
Thanks
Any thought on using a BambuLab AMS compatible spool? The spool I received is too large for the AMS. They only support 200mm spool diameters (7.9"). My other feedback was related to the vacuum bags (answered here), and the outer layers of filament are full of dust and junk. It appears to be just PLA dust and debris.
Interested in the kick starter on testing... Also interested in checking manufacture comment on filament diameter variance through the entire spool, realize it's only a single spool point in time of a filament line run... Could be interesting to hold manufacturers accountable over time on repeat testing to separate almost good enough and whether or not they consistent to their own specs...
Did I hear you mention annealing the filament? Do you have a recommended process for this?
make sure when you go to cardboard spools they dont glue the last bit of filament on the spools. i had some spools that were glued at the end the cardboard and glue jam up my bowden tube and did not trigger my runout sensor.
You should look at using the 3D stamped/ partial shredded paper like Digikey uses. That would keep the 9x9x9 box with a lower cost than foam.
How many mils thick is the plastic used to seal the rolls? I highly doubt several days of friction between two rolls packaged in the same box would cause enough wear and tear.
Something you may want to warn your customers about with Ingeo 850 is it doesn't like to play well with (specifically) Prusa MK3 printers with stock hotends, especially on prints with lots of retractions. The easy(tm), long term fix is for your Prusa customers to replace their heatbreak with a standard geometry e3d V6 heatbreak as long as they don't have MMU units. Prusa bores out (or orders from e3d a bored out version) much of the heatbreak to 2.2mm from the standard 2.0mm to increase reliability with the MMU. This lip where the 2.2mm bore necks down to 2.0mm allows the filament to swell a little right above the melt zone and 850 tends to try to anneal in that area, creating a bulge in the filament that is harder to push into the melt zone. This can be overcome with hotter printing temperatures at the cost of increased stringing if the customer has an MMU or doesn't want to swap that part out. Here is a 4 year old video explaining it better than I can: th-cam.com/video/dSPPrb0J8CY/w-d-xo.html
yes on the kickstarter. The testing would benefit everyone for the future.
thanks
One thing I'd like to see if you're doing more scientific tests - actual tables I can access via website or PDF. Videos are great entertainment, but not great for quickly looking up as a reference since I need to scrub back and forth to find where in the video the information I want is.
Absolutely
I would totally contribute to open-source filament testing
Maybe I missed it but is adding a much cheaper piece of padding to the box to eliminate the shifting not going to work long term? Is it just too much of an extra step?
the filament testing information kickstarter isn't something i'd use most of the time, but i'd be in for $10 just to have it available if i need it.
I was wondering, is there a way that you can print the filament role the same color as the filament I don’t know if that would be too cost expensive but I know when I try to find the right filament, I have to dig through the roles order to see the color and if I could just see it from the actual filament role itself, I feel like that would be much nicer.
For the box sizing issue. Could you potentially cannibalize another box of a 9×9×9? Like cutting the panels and wedging them on the sides to take up the space and keep the spools snug, plus giving a bit more protection during transit?
I mean... I'd kickstart that. Idk if many others would, but that kind of info would be *super* helpful. Not sure if Kickstarter is a good venue for this, but best of luck.
Thanks
Huh, mine wasn’t vacuum sealed when I unboxed it but for some reason that didn’t set off an alarm bell that it wasn’t supposed to be that way.
Could you please tell us the proper way of annealing PLA? Does it only work with PLA+?
I am very pro this project. I wonder if BASF already has the material sheets for baselining the material.
You may be able to get Safety Data Sheets for each material to get melt temperatures and ignition temps.
I'm strictly a hobby printer, but I'm looking forward to a low cost 3D950 filament to be regularly, particularly for strictly mechanical or internal structure prints. That can save my more expensive pretty filaments for artistic prints. I'll definitely be a customer for Tangled Wonk filament.
How does the Tangled PLA compare to Polymaker PLA Pro? Right now PLA Pro is the gold standard for certain kinds of functional prints (*cough* firearms *cough*) and I'm curious if Tangled would be a good source for a comparable material.
Your filament sounds a lot like the PLA+ I have from Inland. It needs a slightly higher temperature, but it prints amazing and when annealed I have literally been able to make oil caps that live inside of engine bays without issue. Really crazy how good PLA can be. Plus it has amazing layer adhesion, high abrasion resistance, and a beautiful finish.
I know later in the video you mentioned that PLA+ is bull, but I can tell you the difference between PLA Pro, PLA+, and regular PLA from the same manufacturer can be dramatic. Not to mention between different manufacturers. And even between different colors and batches like you said. So I don't think it's completely bull, it's just that it's so all over the spectrum depending on numerous factors and especially the manufacturer, that there is really no standardization. Which I'm sure is what you were mostly getting at anyways, but the idea of higher grades of PLA is obviously not complete BS, as you talked about with your brand of filament.
I would definitely love to see more formal testing on filament! Make a standalone video about the Kickstarter for sure. Perhaps you could come up with a suite of extremely standardized tests and just do a few filaments through a gamut of tests every episode. Short of similar to how Fan Showdown works by the Major Hardware. He does four fans per episode, but keeps a running chart. You could do similar, but obviously with much stricter standards, that way it's not overwhelming to produce episodes and we get them more regularly.
I at first don't usually subscribe to every channel i watch. I consider that to be a privilege for the producer of the channel. However, after the last several videos I have enjoyed this severely honest conversation that you have in regards to how you run your business and how you handle your product. I have learned quite a bit (I'm a beginner hobbyist 3D printer) from your video so i believe the privilege is now mine to sub your channel. I look forward to more educational and entertaining videos.
Thanks
On the kickstarter idea to handle the initial investment hump on generating good engineering data - yep, down for that!
what about using TPU to create custom package inserts instead of foam inserts?
Intrusted to see what you do in relation to Fatigue as a simple hook I designed failed in a classic Fatigue mode with the crack polished as it grew across 3/4 of the thickness and a drastic failure in the rest of the rectangular section. The remaining failure surfaces of fused tracks showed separation as many displayed a circular fail surface indicating that they had been stretched and necked in the process.
Some feedback regarding PLA and being hygroscopic: I live in a forested suburb in the midwest and picked up printing in the winter and had great prints. Spring hit all of a sudden print quality suffered even in the Bambu. Installed a room dehumidifier, AMS dry box, and filament dryers problem went away. I exclusively print PLA and yeah it's def hygroscopic. It's the not the quantity of submersion, its the length.
I would love to see a formal test of Bambu Lab filaments. I’ve never been disappointed by their products, and they’re all well documented, but i don’t know in which applications I should care about tensile strength vs toughness vs impact resistance and so on. I’d absolutely buy into a Kickstarter that helps me understand more about what I’m doing 😃
Thanks
Do you guys online ship in the US? Would love cheap filament in Australia 😅
Master Spool refills pls :) No Spools needed and usually less weight for shipping.
I will help with the kick starter for testing.
Thanks
suicidal vacuum bags would definitly suck for petg. puns intended. glad you fixed it for future runs.
The test lab may just save my sanity. I am having trouble with blobbing and stringing with my Anycubic Kobra Max. But it is only with PETG on everything and certain prints with PLA. Also, where can I purchase your filament? I'd love to try it out.
So... What happened with the massage rollers? I know the Kickstarter didn't fund, are you looking at alternatives?
Maybe there's other considerations, but can't you put filler paper / air bags to continue to use 9x9x9s?
being able to test and verify printed parts in house might be a big a selling point to the right customers
How effective is the clear PLA for light pipes? I'm curious both for the filament by itself, and after it's printed.
Light pipes like those used in optical fibres have rings or layers of different materials. Material in centre is great at channeling light, the material at the edges bends light back towards the centre. Glass is typically used as centre core. Filament is a homogeneous material and lacks many of the desirable properties of light pipes.
@@AerialWaviator That's true for long distance fiber optics, which need total internal reflection. A light pipe an inch or two long doesn't need to be nearly so efficient. Most of them are just injection molded from a single material.
Part of the issue you are going to run into trying to develop a standard (as awesome as that would be) is the utterly non-standard standard that passes for consumer 3d printing machines. My Ender 3 is basically a ship of Theseus. My ender 5 is still stock, but I really can't tell you what the actual temperature that is going on inside the hotend, even though the thermistor says "220C". So on the consumer side, we'd have to provide a way to properly calibrate thermistors. (Flow and other factors can be measured with calibration prints.)
Now... if I could get my hands on one or 10 of your slant production printers. Or a kit...
As far as the lab testing equipment kickstarter, I'm totally in.
Related, apparently a standard was just published for PLA filament, ISO 5425:2023
Haven't actually looked at it to see how useful it is, but hopefully it leads to some standardization, because like you said, filament is all over the place right now.
KickStarter - would absolutely crowd source this exercise but being science driven I would not hold much credit to it without ASTM testing procedures , calibrated equipment, and certified labs publishing results. I love the desire and drive to get real data but remember that it is just numbers generated at a certain point in time with countless variables that will skew results. Keep up the good work but don't overextend.
I'm in for a Kickstarter. That kind of data would help, a lot.
thanks
Yep, the info generated from the testing would be great... KICK IT !!
Interesting!
Offer filament at a price that supports the testing. You can offer greater availability for materials or colors that support the testing.
I have been happy with the filament I ordered, gone through about 1kg so far. I think ironing out the bag issues and eventually going to a cardboard spool would be great. I think the kickstarter idea could work, but I think that for me to back it I would need to be able to get a test report or some type of data sheet. For my work and and my customers, referencing a youtube video is not going to suffice, I would need something more similar to other data sheets or process spec.
After 5 years in the shipping industry, I can tell you the expectation should be that about 5-10% of the packages will be damaged in shipping through excessive force. Just in the warehouses you can expect 6-10' drops (and up to 30', don't ask), and force equivalent to slamming against a wall or a dropkick.
The testing is really needed, I have a lot of tests I would love to do to like taking two rolls of PLA from the same manufacter and putting one in a dry box and leaving one out for 6 months and seeing how much the huminity impacts the print. That being said there is a reason why channels like Project Farm exist to do independing real world testing from a unbias non-sponsered standpoint. Project Farm pays for everything he tests so hes not taking sponsorships to aid in removal of bias, I love the idea of what you are going for and plan on signing up for a subscription once the spools fit an AMS. I do not know how much I would trust Ford testing Chevys and Chryslers for quality as there is a direct conflict there.
As long as the data is transparent bias shoudl not be an issue. It is not a review. It is a study. The viewer can make whatever decision they want.
I agree and honestly you guys have been extremely transparent, but the purpose of independent testing is that there is no bias. I don’t know how you would be able to show your data is completely transparent when you are the one collecting it, even if you did a dog bone test or something similar or better than CNC Kitchen some percentage of people may think well how do we know they didn’t just use their best batch and toss 5 tests away that showed them on the bottom, likewise if you take sponsorships and polymaker or overture send you spools to test because they are being sent by the company how do we know they didn’t send a beefed up blend. I’m a fan, just giving you some feedback on issues with both taking sponsorships and testing your materials versus others.
There is another TH-cam channel, "My Tech Fun", that does some testing of different filaments which might be worth looking at.
Indeed!
Ill support a KickStarter with you, I have learned alot from your videos! Built a better Birdhouse after watching that video and everyone loves them so thinking I might sell them! Not sure you can get a KS funded, but I'll do my part.
Thanks. Glad the videos were helpful
When doing dynamic endurance testing with stupid many cycles, please make sure to include fire suppression in your setup. My alma mater tested wooden beams in a nice soundproofed rockwool box, but lost the 10000 repetion data due to fire.
Identifying and acquiring ISO test standards alone is a significant undertaking. Certified testing equipment is not always the biggest post in that gane
The lab is a fantastic idea! I would give to it. Side note.... kinda sounds like the 3dprinting version of the LTT labs project for consumer electronics
Kind close to what ltt is doing
I’d have gone to some of that corrugated paper packaging, wouldn’t be hard to make a rig to perforate the paper, and relatively cost effective, and it can be rolled to fill any voids without adding to weight
I think ultimately the correct solution is they just need to make their own custom boxes in shop.
Tesla has shown the way to get prices down is vertical integration.
Though I would put that step off until probably last.