"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick. Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick." -- Bruce Lee
“Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.” - Dōgen Zenji, 13th century
Lesser skilled players complaints in FGC reminds me of this old guy I played hold em with at the casino once. Homie goes: "Every time I bluff you guys call and every time I have something you fold!!!"
middle is like "dammit how dare he use an unsafe move, now I can't think straight, I can't play right" and then we eat a dp trying to do the mathematically perfect punish and the other person's like "sick"
High IQ: Sol's 5k is reeeeal fast AND this bum who keeps jumping in keeps getting hit by it as an AA. And I keep confirming off it into a combo. SWEET!
@@chasecomfort3940 considering that the lower half of the playerbase has no mix, they go for the same rescatable mix in the same order every time, ranking on a new account is like playing MegaMan bosses
You can absolutely achieve the Zen state of Mushin in fighting games. Mushin translates to "no mind" and it's what athletes and musicians call 'being in the zone'. It's when you can focus all you mind on the intentionality of what you want to do without any conscious effort wasted on thinking about the individual steps that need to be done to accomplish the goal. TLDR: Your body basically just goes on autopilot and does what you want it to without thinking.
It's definitely symbolic of enlightenment. First, you're chillin'. Then, you realize the world isn't what you think it is and seek the truth. Once you find the truth, you realize the whole point is to chill, so you go back to chillin'.
@@HanMasho this is also more or less what isshin is trying to teach you in sekiro and why he always says hesitation is defeat. it's why i think it's a good game for new players to train their mental on
@@-nomi.- I know what you mean. It's like Sajam was talking about in the video: Learning frame data is helpful for getting better, but it doesn't really matter until you can just feel it out and have the right answer for any given situation internalized and ready without having to think about it. Also, Isshin gave me so much trouble. I think it took like 4 hours over the course of 2 days to finally beat him.
Yeah for real, I've been maining the same character in T7 for over 10 years. I complain all the time about their weaknesses but never dropped the character. Just gotta be a jedi with what few tools ya got.
I've been playing Skullgirls again after a long stint and I learned some new comvo routes and I feel like a god. At this point I'm just freestylin Painwheel combos on the fly, not even optimized ones but my fingers just learned how to play this character finally.
He's talking about internalizing what you've learned. You're in the middle when your brain is still trying to ingest the knowledge and figuring out when to apply it. You become the person on the right after you don't need to think about mechanics anymore and you start playing the player. Core-A-Gaming did a video on this topic a while back. th-cam.com/video/g4-EyNJhcQ8/w-d-xo.html
This is the whole "don't think, feel" Bruce Lee quote, if you play enough you get intuitively good about things that you used to have to think about, so you just do them because you recognize the situation subconsciously, which leaves your conscious mind free to do things like yomi and pattern analysis and come up with strategy instead. This is why people get read so often, cause they're busy thinking about what they're doing so they don't spend time analyzing their opponent nearly enough.
na bruh you don't need frame data(kinda joking, I don't know a lot of it). I switched mains from devil jin to jin and they play very different so it fucked me up at first but after you just keep playing who you wanna play you'll naturally be accustomed to there moves and you can just do whatever after
My only advice on tekken is just main one single character and learn the ryhtim of the character, u only need frame data at the beginning of the round in tekken
Nah. The problem is new Tekken players have this weird idea of playing the game properly and never really develop problem solving skills. Maybe in part because they are chasing the impossible dream of memorizing all the moves and frame data (happened to many in early 2017) but not trying to play the flow of the game plan relative to their character. Peter Y Mao had a good video about low level Tekken and developing anticipation by cutting through stuff new players would mix themselves up with and it is brilliant. All comes down to trusting in spacing and punishment for the most part. If you happen to play a character like Jack-7 whose got range 2-3 keep out moves and you have to deal with Law who wants to come inside to party, you simplify the game from there. You will see the occasional junkyard string but at that time you probably launched his ass anyway since u felt so confident just keeping Law out.
"You'll know the moment you go from [there] to [there]". I feel like those jedi moments come in bursts of time and at a certain point the bursts are just really close together.
The transition from the the middle curve to the Jedi state is the whole reason I love playing fighting games. It's about internalizing a character and a game's mechanics so much that I can just STOP THINKING and just play the game. It feels like you just become the character on the screen, without having to worry about all the nonsense calculations in the back of your brain.
"It's about internalizing a character and a game's mechanics so much that I can just STOP THINKING and just play the game" I feel this. When they announced AK in T7 I was so floored by his design and his moves that I was down to learn him when he came out. I internalized all the BnBs and the consistent punishes so that even with training mode and matches, I knew specifically what I was looking for in most situations. It almost felt like he was an extension of me in video games and it felt satisfying winning and losing with the char. That is until I got a better idea of what I wanted to do with a char on offense and they needed an air grab since AK's grab combo ender felt so SICK just executing it. So I went and switched to Julia.
Terrence Tao wrote a short article titled "There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs" on this exact subject only with regards to mathematical maturity. Interestingly enough he broke it down into 3 broad phases that kinda parallel the ones from the image
I think being the guy on the middle is important to becoming the guy on the right. When you don't have a feel for a game yet, you have to work things out instead of just operating on instinct, until you build up those instincts.
I think it's required, much like Sajam suggests in the video. In-depth knowledge of the game is the difference between the guy on the left (I'll call him 55) and the guy on the right (145). Comments here are trashing guy in the middle (100), but he'll clobber 55 most of the time. 100 knows setups, oki, etc. 100 would need two or three correct guess to win a round, whereas 55 would need a lot more. 145 knows tech to the point of not even thinking about it. When 55 throws out unsafe moves or is "fighting the air", 145 subconsciously register the mistake and capitalize. This subconscious reaction is how 145 has an advantage on 100, who still spends time to analyze situations. 145 is "mashing", but they're typically mashing the options which are favorable based on knowledge and experience.
3:04 The thing that I remember the most is when my DP vastly improved. At first I thought it was my reactions that were the problem, but it's when I heard Fuudo(I forgot when this was, I think it was during one of Daigo's old streams. The ones they used to do together.) say something in the lines of "Never block a jump-in. Just do your anti-air instead of blocking 100% of the time, even if you fail, because it's good practice". That's when I thought, "He's absolutely right, if I get to successfully block that jump-in anyway, why not do my anti-air?". That's when I realized that it was just an issue of confidence that I was so inconsistent with my DP's. I already knew that my opponent was about to jump and I had my anti-air on the ready, but I was just too afraid that my DP wouldn't come out in time that I'd go back to blocking. Since I adopted that mentality, my anti-air percentage improved by 4-5x.
Reminds me of an old SF4 image meme where it took 4 pictures of the game same situation and gave commentary from 4 different perspective: The scrub, the beginner, the intermediate and the advanced/pro. The scrub and intermediate are worried about possibly mashing to not lose the position or not dropping the combo they practiced with confirming on hit. The advanced/pro was more worried about spacing and thinking about their opponents' next possible offensive move isn't a threat via frame data due to what they have scouted out moments ago. But I think this new meme does a better job catching the philosophy of that situation from different perspectives.
Man, I am stuck in the middle so farking hard in SFV it hurts. I played some Blazblue the other day with friends and oh my God, it felt so good to not have to think, just go "madly whip around the screen do poison get bugs throw into distortion and win."
This explains LTG perfectly, he's stuck in the middle and won't move forward while crying about it. Also a lot of Japanese pro players I follow just say they feel like it would connect or it wouldn't when they are streaming, I think they do know the frame data but not really use it most of the time and the flow of the match ends up being what they use to choose what to do next.
Yeah must people don't really memorize numbers... they learn "I can punish this move by using this move" Like i know Boxers straight dashes are -4 on block but that's not because i memorized the frame data of the dash straights, it's because i know i can punish dash straights with my st lk which happens to be a 4F move. I don't know the frame data of every single sweep in the game but i know i can punish them with a sweep of my own or any other button when closer. Except for Karins sweep... you gotta medium DP that for some reason. ^^
Frame data is far from everything. I play Balrog and I know a lot of the stuff I do is punishable by the frame data. In a real match however my spacing matters a great deal and often what is punishable on paper is not punishable in a match. I know doing a light low straight is meaty after a forward throw. Even though by the frame data it's -7 on block, in practice because of spacing and being meaty most characters can't touch it. In fact, I sometimes catch whiff punishes with crouch strong after doing it. Or like Sajam said here, if your opponent is + after a given move but doesn't follow it with another attack or always follows it with the same one, you might have an opening there to push a button despite going second.
Back when I got into FGs in SF, whenever I heard post set adjustments and frame data talks come up, the player trying to adjust isn't trying to learn EVERY missed number from their opponents' character. They are specifically trying to remember key numbers per the situation that they keep losing to. But you are also seeing them adjust their spacing ACTIVELY during the new set. Its hard at times to see as a new player if you aren't used to seeing micro walks or moves that change spacing in neutral but it is there and those things are bigger momentum wings than playing math to try checkmate the round. Back when people were doing work analyzing EVO2014 grand finals between Bonchan (Sagat) and Louffy (Rose) I didn't hear much about frame data differences. I just kept hearing about Rose winning the plasma war and in certain spaces, Rose imposes her match up advantage. BUT Sagat can win that match up if he's playing the right spaces and in Bonchan's case he kept playing a space just to zone with tiger shots and losing the overall meter battle.
JWong just uploaded a video of himself winning an Avengers in Galactic Storm tourney where he notes that he doesn't know the game. Jedi understanding and skill of FG fundamentals allows players like him and Sajam to dominate even outside the games they know.
It makes sense. Because how much more different is the Avengers game in terms of the constants of FG concepts of spacing and moves that are good because they are fast and take up space.
I think a big reason for this is that at the beginner level you are more attracted to strategies that seem cheap and abusable (oki, frame traps etc) and put less value on practical skills that will help you in the long run. Also properly practicing practical skills (anti-airing, movement, spacing) on your own is not easy. These skills need to be improved overtime in real matches while getting your ass beat until you start getting your ass beat less and less and eventually you start winning.
The road to mastery, simplified: Unconscious incompetence (You don't even know all the things you don't know) -> Conscious incompetence (You realize all the things you don't know, you start learning and being deliberate but you are still incomptenet) -> Conscious competence (You have learned relevant knowledge and with great focus can consciously execute/implement that knowledge in your craft) -> Unconscious competence (You have internalized the relevant knowledge can implement that knowledge or technique into your craft without even thinking about, it has become so ingrained. Your mental load is free to focus on other things even while you effectively perform the mastered skill)
The only time I use frame data is when there's a change and I just kind of use it to let me know what I can and can't do in a broad sense. After that I just go that's 3 frames now i can mash it instead of getting punched in the face.
i remember popping into dustloop for the first time and being SO overwhelmed by xrd information. i ended up never playing xrd but since then i've been trying to learn to focus on the big picture a little more. sometimes i just look at all the info and try to summarize it in a sentence or two, like "this is a good poke. this is the best setup because _" etc. i'm still not good at fighting games but i try not to clutter my head with things i won't need in split seconds.
This topic reminded me of how I transitioned from the middle to the right side of the chart, and it was by getting my ass kicked so hard that I took a break from fighting games. When I came back to them a couple of months ago, shit just clicked
I think it's really interesting that there's a good mix of top players who play the "right way" in whatever game and players that are basically just intuitive. I noticed it when I used to watch AE 2012 competition and it's applicable to any game where there's a wide spread of ways you can be "jedi". Watching Justin, RyanHart, Gamerbee, Daigo, Momochi, Mago, Kazunoko, Tokido (list goes on but for example purposes); even between all these players, they play so differently stylistically but are all legendary in that game. I think same logic applies to the other games and people don't like to admit that because they have a preconceived notion of what fighting games "should" be, if that makes sense.
Perhaps this is why I've never been good at fighting games, and a lot of other things. I seemingly have no muscle memory, no autopilot- if I'm not actively thinking through something I struggle immensely with it...
This applies to learning _almost anything,_ too. When you start learning a language, you have to start out memorizing vocabulary and one-to-one translations. You have to analyze the grammar of a sentence, and keep all the rules in your head when you're producing the language, and it's _extremely_ hard. But when you have truly internalized a language, you don't even think about all that stuff, and it just comes naturally. You don't worry about what a word translates to, you just know what it _means._ Hell, this even applies to abstract stuff like learning programming to some degree. At some point, you just develop an intuition for solving problems.
That last comment epitomizes that moment where people who think ApologyMan is a genius then realize that man is fallible to a fault when they read his twitter.
I think we all have jedi moments even when we are in the middle,sometimes during a match you gain "momentum" and u just start pressing buttons that seems always to be the right one putting an immense pressure on the opponent, that's a certified jedi moment
Not saying im good at fighting games, I am not. But I definitely fell into the trap of wanting to always know the "right answer", and was much more focused on wins and the frequency of them than learning new shit. I also stopped trying to play against my opponents' character and played against the person. I think getting into Killer Instinct more recently really helped reinforce that idea since there is so much player interaction happening all the time during a match.
Light side: always mixing a different way each time because of muscle memory Dark side: mixing someone to death with the same option over and over because "surely he wont do it again"
After learning this I feel like confidence it also key. If your confident your stuff is going to work then you dont think doing it, just when to do it. Also I realized that even the non optimal stuff is super important because if your only doing 2 things it's easy to react to, but if you have been doing 4 different things it much tougher.
Doing non optimal stuff but you are confident about it goes a long way than trying to be 'game proper' and having to actively think about it. It is a hard thing for new players trying to wrap their head in fighting games because they probably got ingrained in the idea that fighting game smarts is something methodical and based on fast reflexes. Maybe something relative to eSport FPS where twitch trigger finger is a great trait. Rather it is more about confidence and being adaptive in situations AND in game positions.
Its basically just that Aristotle quote: "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know" or at least similarly to the Dunning Krueger effect. And once you DO know that's when you're back to that confidence you had in the beginning.
It's pretty simple, it's like a lot of things. You go through 3 stages: 1) I have no idea what I'm doing, so I can't really think about it I'm just doing it. There's literally nothing to think about because I don't know enough to be able to think about it. 2) 【ＹＯＵ ＡＲＥ ＮＯＷ ＭＡＮＵＡＬＬＹ ＢＲＥＡＴＨＩＮＧ】 - You know enough to be able to think about it but you don't have it down so you're thinking about EVERYTHING. 3) It's all in the muscle memory now. I've seen basically everything and I don't have to think about it, I just do it.
Right side is probably "Expertise-induced amnesia" which is when a task becomes so well practiced and automated that the person isn't even aware they do it anymore.
MvC3 Dante is the only character I've ever really felt like I was Jedi status with. It's not like I could replicate any combo I saw, because I definitely couldn't, but instead of thinking in inputs I thought in animations or general concepts (fast poke, far poke, anti-air, bold-cancel teleport, etc) and my hands just did it. I've chased that dream in other games and with the rest of my team in Marvel, but I've never been able to get there with another character.
Its a lot like fighting in MMA too. You get to a point where you stop thinking about the kicks and punches and the steps to complete a certain submission or takedown and you just react to stuff.
I used to be the guy in the middle, but after watching Sajam learn in the middle of matches I thought: "hey, I should be able to do that too". So, during the Strive Beta I just learn the basics and went at it. I got paired several times against a Ky player who would sometimes end his strings with the flip kick that looks like an overhead (although I think it isn't). Every time I blocked it I tried different buttons. I always lost with a button there, so I figured it was plus and started jumping back after it. I should have probably tried pressing a button to test if I could interrupt it mid animation but I only thought of that after watching a few replays. Anyway, the point is that just going at it with some basic understaning and learning the rest on the fly is much more fun.
This reminds me of a quote, I think it's Nietzsche... "A master neither makes mistakes nor hesitates" or something along those lines. When it comes to the general approach, I think it also has to do with one's personality. For example, I am that guy who goes to guides, youtube, info etc. for any game, fg or not, when "starting to engage with it". It's not taxing to me, it's not boring, I just approach it that way. As a matter of fact, I like that part of the process.
I am similar in regard to how I approach fighters. I like looking up guides and things like that because I love to learn and I find many of them informative and genuinely entertaining. it also gives me some sort of basis to build off of while I am learning how to craft my playstyle. I think having a solid baseline of what my character can do right out the gate makes it easier for me to focus on MUs and player tendencies, rather than wrestling with all three aspects at once. This is also why I am trash at fighting game betas lol
I remember playing DBFZ and whenever a new character came out, I'd read all their frame data online and memorize if they had vanish 6 frame L, or what weird normals left me plus at weird spacing and stuff. Then by the time Videl and Jiren came out I was full on "learn dank meme combos" and "challenge vanish whenever cus fuck it" I've been learning skullgirls for like 3 months now and I have no idea what the frame data is for anything.
The more I play different fighting games where I don't know much about the core mechanics, the more I realize how far I can go just by observing player habits and having really basic punishes that more dedicated players would laugh at me for.
Reminds me of Playing SFIV at an arcade in Vietnam years ago. Was able to hold my own against experienced players just by playing fundamentals: normals, shoryu, hadoken, tatsu. I didn't know any FADC combos or links or anything. When you play a lot of fighting games, much of those fundamental concepts carry over, which is why it's good to learn them. A lot of people sitting in the middle of the bell curve actually forget about the basics; too busy learning advanced stuff.
The goal isn't to be good, the goal is to get good. I had the honor of going to one of the first strive locals in my area last night and we had some of the hypest matches I've ever seen, and it all came from our whole scene having just the slightest idea what they were doing. Don't play the perfect game that can't be criticized, play what you think might work on your opponent.
I think to this point it can happen a lot more when you are enjoying the game or playing the game with a friend after a little bit of practice. And like in sports some days are just good days and some are just bad days. Either way you can focus on your fundamentals with serious stuff or choose to focus on having fun with a friend by hitting some button to deal damage
I main dbfz. The moment I changed from a situation frame data monster to a gaming jedi was when I stopped caring about getting hit and focused more on why I got hit. Also movement and positioning became more of a priority than pouring out damage
actually, Sol's 5k got nerfed to 5 frames, it was a monumental moment in GG history, because for like 19 years sol's 5k was 3 frames and his go-to move
If anything being smart is a detriment like with Mango doing the -6 DAIRs where it's "worse" in terms of frame advantage but the shine after blows up shield grabs, in most games I play I learn a combo off of 2A or the equivalent and throw combos if there are any. Literally stagger pressure and decent defense will carry you to mid-level far easier than memorizing 500 moves frame data. It does help that I have a 13 frame reaction time but down the road when people know what to look for that doesn't matter as much since you need to watch the stagger and the throw and assists and the good ol' Boko bar
I feel like I naturally gravitate towards the jedi side. I usually try to learn the frame data for my own characters but then I just feel out matches between different characters, observe habits and maybe check information on moves that are blowing me up across multiple opponents using the same character. Imo I think being able to learn how to assess other players habits from game to game is one of the most important things for being the Jedi player. Works in anime fighters, 3d fighters and even smash.
The guy on the right has just mastered the game. This is just how you master anything. Same thing happens with drums. After like 10+ years you just improvise cause you just understand how to do things, so you just do it.
In other words, Ghandi was the guy on the right all along. As is Punk, who didn't know the exact amount of additional hitstun counterhits gave ( only that they gave it) until late into street fighter five's lifespan and his career.
I rely on the mids for alot of bison stuff, mp,mp,mp,HPxxqcbhp midscreen is a string that ends -10 but the spacing makes it safe, but people still try to punish coz it's -10, then I get a free whiff punish, but lower levels and higher levels will always jab between mp and HP and the gap is there to disrupt it, so it doesn't work on shit and really good players
It's the difference between the guy who drops his tod and doesnt care and the one who panics and tries it again. The one dude is just like reset the other dude is like wtf do I do
"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee
Is that a real quote? I've never seen that before
@@El-Burrito Yes it is 100% real
I was going to comment this exactly
@@dgas5904 Bruce Lee has ENDLESS quotes and philosophies that not only coincide with martial arts but FG philosophy in general.
That's real af lol
its when light punch, medium punch, light kick heavy punch becomes, "HOWS IT TASTE, KEEP THE RHYTHM UP"
this is the best analogy i have ever seen
Lollll what are you referencing
@@myboy_ Shun Goku Satsu, I wager?
@@myboy_ You wanna learn how to do a fuckin infinite?
@@myboy_ th-cam.com/video/vpYdEjvAg3k/w-d-xo.html
Step 1: Punch
Step 2: How do I punch?
Step 3: P U N C H
It’s like jazz. You learn it, then forget it. Then you improvise. And that’s when the music starts.
Thats literally how you master anything
I came here to say the same!
that's a beautiful analogy.
Jazz is life
Good old Jazz baby
The transition occurs when you go from waking up super like a scrub to waking up super like a god
This was so funny to me
“Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters.”
- Dōgen Zenji, 13th century
Lesser skilled players complaints in FGC reminds me of this old guy I played hold em with at the casino once. Homie goes: "Every time I bluff you guys call and every time I have something you fold!!!"
"Yeah I did I'll do it again" - Pretty much every FG jedi probably
middle is like "dammit how dare he use an unsafe move, now I can't think straight, I can't play right" and then we eat a dp trying to do the mathematically perfect punish and the other person's like "sick"
I need the person making these godlike thumbnails to plan my funeral
But the thumbnail is just the meme he's discussing
He got a like simply because I like the comment and I am gonna steal this. Thanks!
Taking a shit & I read this comment & start to 💩 again no bull 🤣
Low IQ: Sol's 5K is reeeeal fast
Midwit: Sol's 5K has a 2 frame startup animation and becomes active on frame 3
High IQ: Sol's 5K is reeeeal fast
High IQ: Sol's 5k is reeeeal fast AND this bum who keeps jumping in keeps getting hit by it as an AA. And I keep confirming off it into a combo. SWEET!
The fighting game experience
- You mash buttons
- You learn how to block (kinda (not really))
- Now you mash buttons but it works
Blocking maybe half the hits and remembering 2H will get you in the upper quartile of DBFZ
@@chasecomfort3940 considering that the lower half of the playerbase has no mix, they go for the same rescatable mix in the same order every time, ranking on a new account is like playing MegaMan bosses
Replace this bell curve meme with a gorilla turning into a human and then back into a gorilla
Spoken like a true leo player
he has ａｓｃｅｎｄｅｄ to ＭＯＮＫＥ
Super Simian God Super Simian (SSGSS)
Is this literally the Buddhist saying "Mountain is mountain. Water is water" for fgc? Do we achieve zen through fighting games? lmao
Have you ever raged so hard online that you reached a new level of Yomi? This is true zen.
You can absolutely achieve the Zen state of Mushin in fighting games. Mushin translates to "no mind" and it's what athletes and musicians call 'being in the zone'. It's when you can focus all you mind on the intentionality of what you want to do without any conscious effort wasted on thinking about the individual steps that need to be done to accomplish the goal.
TLDR: Your body basically just goes on autopilot and does what you want it to without thinking.
It's definitely symbolic of enlightenment. First, you're chillin'. Then, you realize the world isn't what you think it is and seek the truth. Once you find the truth, you realize the whole point is to chill, so you go back to chillin'.
@@HanMasho this is also more or less what isshin is trying to teach you in sekiro and why he always says hesitation is defeat. it's why i think it's a good game for new players to train their mental on
@@-nomi.- I know what you mean. It's like Sajam was talking about in the video: Learning frame data is helpful for getting better, but it doesn't really matter until you can just feel it out and have the right answer for any given situation internalized and ready without having to think about it.
Also, Isshin gave me so much trouble. I think it took like 4 hours over the course of 2 days to finally beat him.
It's not that hard. All you gotta do is pick a few characters you like, then play them a lot.
That's it guys. That's the secret.
Whats funny is that I already forgot most of T7 frame data and I just played by guts and situations that I can exploit
Yup. Hardest part is always finding a character you like and not dropping him when you see his weaknesses.
Yeah for real, I've been maining the same character in T7 for over 10 years. I complain all the time about their weaknesses but never dropped the character. Just gotta be a jedi with what few tools ya got.
@@Kilvoctu Paul right?
You still need to play with purpose if you want to improve tho.
I've been playing Skullgirls again after a long stint and I learned some new comvo routes and I feel like a god. At this point I'm just freestylin Painwheel combos on the fly, not even optimized ones but my fingers just learned how to play this character finally.
He's talking about internalizing what you've learned. You're in the middle when your brain is still trying to ingest the knowledge and figuring out when to apply it. You become the person on the right after you don't need to think about mechanics anymore and you start playing the player. Core-A-Gaming did a video on this topic a while back. th-cam.com/video/g4-EyNJhcQ8/w-d-xo.html
Some days you're level three, some days you're level one
how did this show up in my reccomended as soon as it was uploaded?
Are we force sensitive?
frame 1 recommendations on load up. What a world.
This is the whole "don't think, feel" Bruce Lee quote, if you play enough you get intuitively good about things that you used to have to think about, so you just do them because you recognize the situation subconsciously, which leaves your conscious mind free to do things like yomi and pattern analysis and come up with strategy instead. This is why people get read so often, cause they're busy thinking about what they're doing so they don't spend time analyzing their opponent nearly enough.
Noob: Mash buttons
Intermediate: Press buttons in a timed manner
Advanced: Mash buttons in a timed manner
Fighting games is like learning programming.
At the start, you wonder why stuff isn't working. At the end, you wonder how the hell stuff is working.
I was thinking Buddhism philosophy, but this Is really good too
No lies detected
why does no one know what their code does, i’m not a fan of this compsci meme. coding isn’t as esoteric as people would have you believe
@@logandunlap9156 Just like fighting games! Wonder if there's a reason for the commonality.
Tekken throws your ass in the middle and keeps you hostage there.
The problem with middle players is they have a hard time simplifying. U don't need frame data. Just play for fun and get in a rhythm.
na bruh you don't need frame data(kinda joking, I don't know a lot of it). I switched mains from devil jin to jin and they play very different so it fucked me up at first but after you just keep playing who you wanna play you'll naturally be accustomed to there moves and you can just do whatever after
My only advice on tekken is just main one single character and learn the ryhtim of the character, u only need frame data at the beginning of the round in tekken
Nah. The problem is new Tekken players have this weird idea of playing the game properly and never really develop problem solving skills. Maybe in part because they are chasing the impossible dream of memorizing all the moves and frame data (happened to many in early 2017) but not trying to play the flow of the game plan relative to their character. Peter Y Mao had a good video about low level Tekken and developing anticipation by cutting through stuff new players would mix themselves up with and it is brilliant. All comes down to trusting in spacing and punishment for the most part. If you happen to play a character like Jack-7 whose got range 2-3 keep out moves and you have to deal with Law who wants to come inside to party, you simplify the game from there. You will see the occasional junkyard string but at that time you probably launched his ass anyway since u felt so confident just keeping Law out.
Fighting games have taught me how to read minds and react to things without thinking about it
"You'll know the moment you go from [there] to [there]". I feel like those jedi moments come in bursts of time and at a certain point the bursts are just really close together.
The transition from the the middle curve to the Jedi state is the whole reason I love playing fighting games. It's about internalizing a character and a game's mechanics so much that I can just STOP THINKING and just play the game. It feels like you just become the character on the screen, without having to worry about all the nonsense calculations in the back of your brain.
"It's about internalizing a character and a game's mechanics so much that I can just STOP THINKING and just play the game"
I feel this. When they announced AK in T7 I was so floored by his design and his moves that I was down to learn him when he came out. I internalized all the BnBs and the consistent punishes so that even with training mode and matches, I knew specifically what I was looking for in most situations. It almost felt like he was an extension of me in video games and it felt satisfying winning and losing with the char. That is until I got a better idea of what I wanted to do with a char on offense and they needed an air grab since AK's grab combo ender felt so SICK just executing it. So I went and switched to Julia.
Terrence Tao wrote a short article titled "There’s more to mathematics than rigour and proofs" on this exact subject only with regards to mathematical maturity. Interestingly enough he broke it down into 3 broad phases that kinda parallel the ones from the image
I think being the guy on the middle is important to becoming the guy on the right. When you don't have a feel for a game yet, you have to work things out instead of just operating on instinct, until you build up those instincts.
I think it's required, much like Sajam suggests in the video. In-depth knowledge of the game is the difference between the guy on the left (I'll call him 55) and the guy on the right (145).
Comments here are trashing guy in the middle (100), but he'll clobber 55 most of the time. 100 knows setups, oki, etc. 100 would need two or three correct guess to win a round, whereas 55 would need a lot more.
145 knows tech to the point of not even thinking about it. When 55 throws out unsafe moves or is "fighting the air", 145 subconsciously register the mistake and capitalize.
This subconscious reaction is how 145 has an advantage on 100, who still spends time to analyze situations.
145 is "mashing", but they're typically mashing the options which are favorable based on knowledge and experience.
3:04 The thing that I remember the most is when my DP vastly improved. At first I thought it was my reactions that were the problem, but it's when I heard Fuudo(I forgot when this was, I think it was during one of Daigo's old streams. The ones they used to do together.) say something in the lines of "Never block a jump-in. Just do your anti-air instead of blocking 100% of the time, even if you fail, because it's good practice". That's when I thought, "He's absolutely right, if I get to successfully block that jump-in anyway, why not do my anti-air?".
That's when I realized that it was just an issue of confidence that I was so inconsistent with my DP's. I already knew that my opponent was about to jump and I had my anti-air on the ready, but I was just too afraid that my DP wouldn't come out in time that I'd go back to blocking. Since I adopted that mentality, my anti-air percentage improved by 4-5x.
There you have it. Jedi's absolutely mash buttons with confidence despite the consequences.
@@t4d0W I guess you could interpret it like that.haha
All fighting game greats reject humanity. For it all returns to monke.
I feel like the Tekken games keep everyone but like 50 people worldwide in that middle section.
Not true. U can be right side and never play a pro tourny
@@abramlittle7102 D O U B T
@@beastfulboy Arslan Ash was right side in Tekken and never played in a "pro" tournament until a few years ago.
The required movement in Tekken to play optimal is obscene.
th-cam.com/video/h6QqueTs8QY/w-d-xo.html
@@spiritualopportunism4585 bruh he just hitting buttons.
Reminds me of an old SF4 image meme where it took 4 pictures of the game same situation and gave commentary from 4 different perspective: The scrub, the beginner, the intermediate and the advanced/pro. The scrub and intermediate are worried about possibly mashing to not lose the position or not dropping the combo they practiced with confirming on hit. The advanced/pro was more worried about spacing and thinking about their opponents' next possible offensive move isn't a threat via frame data due to what they have scouted out moments ago. But I think this new meme does a better job catching the philosophy of that situation from different perspectives.
Man, I am stuck in the middle so farking hard in SFV it hurts. I played some Blazblue the other day with friends and oh my God, it felt so good to not have to think, just go "madly whip around the screen do poison get bugs throw into distortion and win."
I feel this is acctually a good thing to keep in mind.
This explains LTG perfectly, he's stuck in the middle and won't move forward while crying about it.
Also a lot of Japanese pro players I follow just say they feel like it would connect or it wouldn't when they are streaming, I think they do know the frame data but not really use it most of the time and the flow of the match ends up being what they use to choose what to do next.
Yeah must people don't really memorize numbers... they learn "I can punish this move by using this move" Like i know Boxers straight dashes are -4 on block but that's not because i memorized the frame data of the dash straights, it's because i know i can punish dash straights with my st lk which happens to be a 4F move.
I don't know the frame data of every single sweep in the game but i know i can punish them with a sweep of my own or any other button when closer. Except for Karins sweep... you gotta medium DP that for some reason. ^^
Frame data is far from everything. I play Balrog and I know a lot of the stuff I do is punishable by the frame data. In a real match however my spacing matters a great deal and often what is punishable on paper is not punishable in a match. I know doing a light low straight is meaty after a forward throw. Even though by the frame data it's -7 on block, in practice because of spacing and being meaty most characters can't touch it. In fact, I sometimes catch whiff punishes with crouch strong after doing it.
Or like Sajam said here, if your opponent is + after a given move but doesn't follow it with another attack or always follows it with the same one, you might have an opening there to push a button despite going second.
Back when I got into FGs in SF, whenever I heard post set adjustments and frame data talks come up, the player trying to adjust isn't trying to learn EVERY missed number from their opponents' character. They are specifically trying to remember key numbers per the situation that they keep losing to. But you are also seeing them adjust their spacing ACTIVELY during the new set. Its hard at times to see as a new player if you aren't used to seeing micro walks or moves that change spacing in neutral but it is there and those things are bigger momentum wings than playing math to try checkmate the round.
Back when people were doing work analyzing EVO2014 grand finals between Bonchan (Sagat) and Louffy (Rose) I didn't hear much about frame data differences. I just kept hearing about Rose winning the plasma war and in certain spaces, Rose imposes her match up advantage. BUT Sagat can win that match up if he's playing the right spaces and in Bonchan's case he kept playing a space just to zone with tiger shots and losing the overall meter battle.
JWong just uploaded a video of himself winning an Avengers in Galactic Storm tourney where he notes that he doesn't know the game. Jedi understanding and skill of FG fundamentals allows players like him and Sajam to dominate even outside the games they know.
It makes sense. Because how much more different is the Avengers game in terms of the constants of FG concepts of spacing and moves that are good because they are fast and take up space.
I think a big reason for this is that at the beginner level you are more attracted to strategies that seem cheap and abusable (oki, frame traps etc) and put less value on practical skills that will help you in the long run. Also properly practicing practical skills (anti-airing, movement, spacing) on your own is not easy. These skills need to be improved overtime in real matches while getting your ass beat until you start getting your ass beat less and less and eventually you start winning.
The road to mastery, simplified: Unconscious incompetence (You don't even know all the things you don't know) -> Conscious incompetence (You realize all the things you don't know, you start learning and being deliberate but you are still incomptenet) -> Conscious competence (You have learned relevant knowledge and with great focus can consciously execute/implement that knowledge in your craft) -> Unconscious competence (You have internalized the relevant knowledge can implement that knowledge or technique into your craft without even thinking about, it has become so ingrained. Your mental load is free to focus on other things even while you effectively perform the mastered skill)
The only time I use frame data is when there's a change and I just kind of use it to let me know what I can and can't do in a broad sense. After that I just go that's 3 frames now i can mash it instead of getting punched in the face.
i remember popping into dustloop for the first time and being SO overwhelmed by xrd information. i ended up never playing xrd but since then i've been trying to learn to focus on the big picture a little more. sometimes i just look at all the info and try to summarize it in a sentence or two, like "this is a good poke. this is the best setup because _" etc. i'm still not good at fighting games but i try not to clutter my head with things i won't need in split seconds.
This video literally came out at the perfect time for me lol, gracias sir jam
"Don't get hit" - Isai
This topic reminded me of how I transitioned from the middle to the right side of the chart, and it was by getting my ass kicked so hard that I took a break from fighting games. When I came back to them a couple of months ago, shit just clicked
I think it's really interesting that there's a good mix of top players who play the "right way" in whatever game and players that are basically just intuitive. I noticed it when I used to watch AE 2012 competition and it's applicable to any game where there's a wide spread of ways you can be "jedi". Watching Justin, RyanHart, Gamerbee, Daigo, Momochi, Mago, Kazunoko, Tokido (list goes on but for example purposes); even between all these players, they play so differently stylistically but are all legendary in that game. I think same logic applies to the other games and people don't like to admit that because they have a preconceived notion of what fighting games "should" be, if that makes sense.
the left right bit is the most relatable thing on the planet
I actually just wrote a university paper about the FGC and I wrote some of the concepts about being a Jedi compared to a padawan in it
Perhaps this is why I've never been good at fighting games, and a lot of other things. I seemingly have no muscle memory, no autopilot- if I'm not actively thinking through something I struggle immensely with it...
This applies to learning _almost anything,_ too.
When you start learning a language, you have to start out memorizing vocabulary and one-to-one translations. You have to analyze the grammar of a sentence, and keep all the rules in your head when you're producing the language, and it's _extremely_ hard.
But when you have truly internalized a language, you don't even think about all that stuff, and it just comes naturally. You don't worry about what a word translates to, you just know what it _means._
Hell, this even applies to abstract stuff like learning programming to some degree. At some point, you just develop an intuition for solving problems.
Sajam had the massive brass balls to call most people in the high-level fgc idiots. What a fucking legend.
I realized im slowly turning into the jedi the moment I realized frame data matters less when you space moves. lol
He actually right tbh i play dbfz and ggacr among other anime fighters and i tend to play around my opponent and make him whiff so that i can punish
Pretty much the same way I've played fighting games, mostly trying mind games or making my opponent more predictable.
That last comment epitomizes that moment where people who think ApologyMan is a genius then realize that man is fallible to a fault when they read his twitter.
I think we all have jedi moments even when we are in the middle,sometimes during a match you gain "momentum" and u just start pressing buttons that seems always to be the right one putting an immense pressure on the opponent, that's a certified jedi moment
Fantastic video.
Not saying im good at fighting games, I am not. But I definitely fell into the trap of wanting to always know the "right answer", and was much more focused on wins and the frequency of them than learning new shit. I also stopped trying to play against my opponents' character and played against the person. I think getting into Killer Instinct more recently really helped reinforce that idea since there is so much player interaction happening all the time during a match.
Light side: always mixing a different way each time because of muscle memory
Dark side: mixing someone to death with the same option over and over because "surely he wont do it again"
imo u can be on multiple points on the graph at once for different aspects of the game; also this video is such a good thing to keep in mind
ignoring that there are wojaks on screen 😭
This is excellent advice!
After learning this I feel like confidence it also key. If your confident your stuff is going to work then you dont think doing it, just when to do it. Also I realized that even the non optimal stuff is super important because if your only doing 2 things it's easy to react to, but if you have been doing 4 different things it much tougher.
Doing non optimal stuff but you are confident about it goes a long way than trying to be 'game proper' and having to actively think about it. It is a hard thing for new players trying to wrap their head in fighting games because they probably got ingrained in the idea that fighting game smarts is something methodical and based on fast reflexes. Maybe something relative to eSport FPS where twitch trigger finger is a great trait. Rather it is more about confidence and being adaptive in situations AND in game positions.
now that im climbing the Strive tower (from 4th floor now struggling between 7th&8th) i understand this video more than ever
Its basically just that Aristotle quote: "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know" or at least similarly to the Dunning Krueger effect.
And once you DO know that's when you're back to that confidence you had in the beginning.
I have this on repeat 24h
It's pretty simple, it's like a lot of things. You go through 3 stages:
1) I have no idea what I'm doing, so I can't really think about it I'm just doing it. There's literally nothing to think about because I don't know enough to be able to think about it.
2) 【ＹＯＵ ＡＲＥ ＮＯＷ ＭＡＮＵＡＬＬＹ ＢＲＥＡＴＨＩＮＧ】 - You know enough to be able to think about it but you don't have it down so you're thinking about EVERYTHING.
3) It's all in the muscle memory now. I've seen basically everything and I don't have to think about it, I just do it.
Right side is probably "Expertise-induced amnesia" which is when a task becomes so well practiced and automated that the person isn't even aware they do it anymore.
MvC3 Dante is the only character I've ever really felt like I was Jedi status with. It's not like I could replicate any combo I saw, because I definitely couldn't, but instead of thinking in inputs I thought in animations or general concepts (fast poke, far poke, anti-air, bold-cancel teleport, etc) and my hands just did it. I've chased that dream in other games and with the rest of my team in Marvel, but I've never been able to get there with another character.
Its a lot like fighting in MMA too. You get to a point where you stop thinking about the kicks and punches and the steps to complete a certain submission or takedown and you just react to stuff.
I used to be the guy in the middle, but after watching Sajam learn in the middle of matches I thought: "hey, I should be able to do that too". So, during the Strive Beta I just learn the basics and went at it.
I got paired several times against a Ky player who would sometimes end his strings with the flip kick that looks like an overhead (although I think it isn't). Every time I blocked it I tried different buttons. I always lost with a button there, so I figured it was plus and started jumping back after it. I should have probably tried pressing a button to test if I could interrupt it mid animation but I only thought of that after watching a few replays.
Anyway, the point is that just going at it with some basic understaning and learning the rest on the fly is much more fun.
This reminds me of a quote, I think it's Nietzsche... "A master neither makes mistakes nor hesitates" or something along those lines.
When it comes to the general approach, I think it also has to do with one's personality. For example, I am that guy who goes to guides, youtube, info etc. for any game, fg or not, when "starting to engage with it". It's not taxing to me, it's not boring, I just approach it that way. As a matter of fact, I like that part of the process.
I am similar in regard to how I approach fighters. I like looking up guides and things like that because I love to learn and I find many of them informative and genuinely entertaining. it also gives me some sort of basis to build off of while I am learning how to craft my playstyle. I think having a solid baseline of what my character can do right out the gate makes it easier for me to focus on MUs and player tendencies, rather than wrestling with all three aspects at once. This is also why I am trash at fighting game betas lol
I remember playing DBFZ and whenever a new character came out, I'd read all their frame data online and memorize if they had vanish 6 frame L, or what weird normals left me plus at weird spacing and stuff.
Then by the time Videl and Jiren came out I was full on "learn dank meme combos" and "challenge vanish whenever cus fuck it"
I've been learning skullgirls for like 3 months now and I have no idea what the frame data is for anything.
best outro to date
3:59 - 4:15
Notable examples from Melee: Leffen and Mango
The more I play different fighting games where I don't know much about the core mechanics, the more I realize how far I can go just by observing player habits and having really basic punishes that more dedicated players would laugh at me for.
Reminds me of Playing SFIV at an arcade in Vietnam years ago. Was able to hold my own against experienced players just by playing fundamentals: normals, shoryu, hadoken, tatsu. I didn't know any FADC combos or links or anything.
When you play a lot of fighting games, much of those fundamental concepts carry over, which is why it's good to learn them. A lot of people sitting in the middle of the bell curve actually forget about the basics; too busy learning advanced stuff.
Wow this image is shockingly accurate
only frame data I know is negative 4
hi brianF
The thumbnail is perfect
The goal isn't to be good, the goal is to get good. I had the honor of going to one of the first strive locals in my area last night and we had some of the hypest matches I've ever seen, and it all came from our whole scene having just the slightest idea what they were doing. Don't play the perfect game that can't be criticized, play what you think might work on your opponent.
It happened to me this last week. I felt myself go over the hump. I remember this meme and remembered this video. It is really is true my friends.
I think the word Sajam is looking for is intuition
I remember injustice Sajam
I think to this point it can happen a lot more when you are enjoying the game or playing the game with a friend after a little bit of practice. And like in sports some days are just good days and some are just bad days. Either way you can focus on your fundamentals with serious stuff or choose to focus on having fun with a friend by hitting some button to deal damage
The last 15 seconds is me being mindblown
Past a certain point, the moves, the oki, the tactics. It all becomes instinct.
I main dbfz. The moment I changed from a situation frame data monster to a gaming jedi was when I stopped caring about getting hit and focused more on why I got hit. Also movement and positioning became more of a priority than pouring out damage
Insert rickie ortiz looking at mike playing sfv on excellent adventures saying, "brain off" in an insulting manner.
actually, Sol's 5k got nerfed to 5 frames, it was a monumental moment in GG history, because for like 19 years sol's 5k was 3 frames and his go-to move
If anything being smart is a detriment like with Mango doing the -6 DAIRs where it's "worse" in terms of frame advantage but the shine after blows up shield grabs, in most games I play I learn a combo off of 2A or the equivalent and throw combos if there are any. Literally stagger pressure and decent defense will carry you to mid-level far easier than memorizing 500 moves frame data. It does help that I have a 13 frame reaction time but down the road when people know what to look for that doesn't matter as much since you need to watch the stagger and the throw and assists and the good ol' Boko bar
I feel like I naturally gravitate towards the jedi side. I usually try to learn the frame data for my own characters but then I just feel out matches between different characters, observe habits and maybe check information on moves that are blowing me up across multiple opponents using the same character. Imo I think being able to learn how to assess other players habits from game to game is one of the most important things for being the Jedi player. Works in anime fighters, 3d fighters and even smash.
Tl;dr adaptation is king.
The guy on the right has just mastered the game. This is just how you master anything. Same thing happens with drums. After like 10+ years you just improvise cause you just understand how to do things, so you just do it.
In other words, Ghandi was the guy on the right all along. As is Punk, who didn't know the exact amount of additional hitstun counterhits gave ( only that they gave it) until late into street fighter five's lifespan and his career.
that thumbnail 💀😂😂😂😂
I hollered at that image. Looks like admiral akbar
making it past the middle is hard and takes years
1:12 i feel like youre directly referencing artosis with this persona
At one point you just see the flowchart like some chakara network & you know you’ve ascended
I rely on the mids for alot of bison stuff, mp,mp,mp,HPxxqcbhp midscreen is a string that ends -10 but the spacing makes it safe, but people still try to punish coz it's -10, then I get a free whiff punish, but lower levels and higher levels will always jab between mp and HP and the gap is there to disrupt it, so it doesn't work on shit and really good players
A button is a button, a button isnt a button a button is a button and im pressing all of them
Reaching the far right in Tekken is probably the hardest imo, out of all the fighting games
This feels like my tekken experience
It's the difference between the guy who drops his tod and doesnt care and the one who panics and tries it again. The one dude is just like reset the other dude is like wtf do I do
Wait… it’s just the dunning Kruger effect.