Why the Prime Directive Might Actually Be a Terrible Rule
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2024
- ▶Watch more Trek, Actually videos:
• Trek, Actually
▶Patreon: / steveshives
▶PayPal: www.paypal.me/SteveShives
▶Subscribe: / steveshives
▶Twitter: / steve_shives
▶Facebook: / thatguysteveshives - บันเทิง
![[TH] VCT Pacific Stage 2 - Playoffs Lower Bracket Final // PRX vs DRX](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5HwO1bQyAx4/mqdefault.jpg)
I prefer Futurama's god rule. “When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
As a seasoned stellaris player, you try alot of different approaches to develop young, pre space civilizations.
Best approach in the end is a forcible military conquest, followed by extremely invasive genetic alterations and psyco-indoctrination.
Cook a hundred years and you have completely integrated and harmonious drone... I mean citizens.
Hive mind?
No we-I have no idea what you are talking about. (*Creepy crawly sounds intensify*)
“When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all.”
Its true!! There were several intervention in human history which resulted into avoiding horrible wars! But since these wars were avoided and didnt happened ... people dont know that they would have happened.
If a man washes a dish and no one sees it....did it happen? "Kate and Leopold"
When you do things right, people won’t be sure you’ve done anything at all. Is a good quote, unfortunately some may confuse...good with right. There are as we could say...problematic individuals or groups our governments deal with in silence. Imagine say..for instance, someone higher up developed a virus to secretly exterminate the evil dominion. Hahahaha.
@@supermal112233
Yea :
Good vs Bad
Righteous vs Evil
Right vs Wrong
Correct vs Incorrect
Moral vs Immoral
Ethical vs Unethical
Many conflate these issues to mean whatever drives their narrative at the time. Me, I have my own take on it all :
Good vs Bad = Good is whatever works for you (me), Bad is whatever harms me.
Righteous vs Evil = (Cause there's no such thing as "Good vs Evil" despite humans claiming otherwise - so it's basically the same as "Self involved/Narcissistic" vs "They are different from me and therefore must be rejected" which is toxic)
Right vs Wrong = Kinda like below, despite it being vague : True vs Untrue
Correct vs Incorrect = Accurate/Reality/Real/Fact vs Inaccurate/Fantasy/Fake/Fiction
Moral vs Immoral = Don't care about this, I care about what _is_ [the two above this] and what _isn't_ bc Morals are too much like "Righteous vs Evil" : A social construct _forced onto others through indoctrination_ and used for subjugating others _different from yourself_ for _not being more like you_ - again, toxic
Ethical vs Unethical = Ethical, but not at the expense of Logic : I'm the "ends justify the means" kinda person, I'm just not _dumb_ about it : _dishonest with myself about what "the ends I really want are"_
I make no apologies for any of it, and I'm good with the lot of the way I've come to view it.
Others try and pick fights with me about this stuff and I just blow them off, or whatever else I feel like doing at the time, but I don't compromise any of this stuff. I hate it when others do.
Spock: " That violates the Prime Directive."
Kirk: "Prime what?"
They actually had this conversation in: "For the Earth is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
Well, they did not literally say "Prime Directive", but the conversation wend somehow like this:
Kirk: We have to warn these people.
Spock: Captain, you are violating Starfleed regulations. We can not foresee what consequences our interference might have.
Kirk: Everyting has to be better than extinction.
Spock: Logical.
Ironically, Janeway and Paris had the exact opposite conversation in: "Time and Again"
Paris: All these people are going to die, we have to warn them.
Janeway: We do not know what the consequences might me.
Paris: Everything has to be better than extinction.
Janeway: You are not going to warn these people, that's an order.
Jason .Roberts and so ironic for a Vulcan to mention that
@@MasterWaveXL7 Especially because, as a half-Vulcan, he is about the most egregious example possible of not following it. Sarak couldn't keep it in his pants. At least he took Amanda and Spock back to Vulcan instead of forgetting about them like Kirk lol.
@@schwarzerritter5724 Janeway feels like that kind of boss that keeps track of your bathroom time.
*Kirk in a fake Spock accent (with falsetto undertones (akin to Monty Python) "ooooh, the Prime Directive...we can't go against THAT one now can we?"*
"What about the Vulcans guiding the development of Earth following first contact?"
"That's not canon yet!"
XD
But the joke doesn't really make sense because the Prime Directive is a rule of the federation....which didn't exist when the Vulcans interfered with earth. TPol also specifically states that the Vulcan Science Directorate created a non interference rule (a precursor to the Prime Directive) specifically because of the disaster that the Vulcan/earth contact became, resulting in over 100 years of Vulcan involvement of supervising Earth development.
But it does make sense. He was saying that history shows whenever an advanced civilization interferes with a less advanced one, no matter how good the intentions, it goes horribly wrong. Not that the Vulcans violated the Prime Directive, which did not yet exist then, but here was a case that an advanced civilization interfered and things did NOT go horribly wrong. And at the time of this Episode, that lore had not yet been developed.
@@tjdarkrage6693 I guess what I was thinking was that from the Vilcan's perspective, first contact and interference with Earth was a disaster. They felt morally obligated to help guide the development of Earth and Earth became resentful through their own ignorance due to lack of experience. So even if societies don't get sick or die; or start to deify; or develop religions around the technological superior culture, there are still long-term consequences that are not pleasant and can be draining on the resources of the more advanced society. They felt so strongly that things had gone wrong with Earth they created their non-interference Claus so they would never get into a similar situation again. So that led me to believe that from their perspective, even though Earth ended up being their ally, the disaster that was intervention was not worth it.
First contact is permitted if the civilization is warp capable. The Vulcans where there when Cochrane broke the warp barrier.
@@tjdarkrage6693 Except that it doesn't necessarily. I don't know why everyone assumes that. It's not a hard and fast rule -- it depends on the parties involved in each specific incident. Just because it happened on Earth many times (not all the times) doesn't mean that it's some unchangeable, universal standard that applies everywhere all the time. I thought it was established that Earth is not the center of the universe?
So it sounds like the problem with the "Prime Directive" is the very one Picard cites as reason to save Wesley ("Justice is never as simple as a rule book.") when Wesley crushes some flowers on a planet where the only punishment is execution for ANY rule infraction. No law should ever be interpreted in an absolute black-and-white. The INTENT is good, to avoid Starfleet empire building, but it needs more shades of grey and exceptions for special cases ("Yes, you can intervene to save an entire civilization, but keep the exposure as minimal as possible." and "Yes, you can intervene to ease planet wide suffering, but again keep the exposure as minimal as possible.") Even our laws for murder have shades of grey for self-defense and degrees of severity (involuntary manslaughter versus intentional murder versus pre-planned murder)
When was "Avoiding Empire Building" given as the reason for the Prime Directive? My recollection was that wasn't the reason, more of "don't play God." The Federation "empire builds" through a combination of colonization, after analyzing cultures through anthropology, when they become warp capable the Prime Directive no longer applies and offer them membership in the Federation.
Basically, dogma shouldn't take precedence over common sense. If the rule exists to protect less developed cultures, then _obviously_ it should be disregarded when adhering to it would result in _more_ harm. (Like extinction.) Picard's attitude of sticking to the letter of the rule purely on principle, regardless of the circumstances and consequences, kinda looks like washing your hands of any responsibility in such cases.
The obvious problem with the prime directive is being totally hypocritical to the entire purpose of Starfleet.
To seek out new life and new civilizations, to explore strange new worlds..... Discovery and exploration is about learning. The purpose of the federation is explore the universe to learn new knowledge.
To somehow think its it ok for humans to explore the universe, find new civilizations, and then carry back home new information, technology, medical advances (remember finding the cure for McCoy's fatal illness on an asteroid they put back on course?) and use all that knowledge to better and benefit the human race, while at the same time refusing to assist, teach, or bring science and technology to other less advanced worlds, is blatant colonialization. The only time star fleet ever banned itself from interacting with another civilization was the original pilot: Talos - because their telekinetic powers would become addictive.
Developing warp drive has nothing to do with it. Its ok to inject new knowledge and understanding into a culture, ANY culture, including your own, or its not.
Additionally, it does not take generations for a civilization to "adapt" to new technology. Humans today have the same DNA, the same mental abilities, that we had 300,000 years ago when we lives in caves and huts. A persons culture is not genetic, it is 100% learned behavior. Each generation is able to learn new information and base their lives on it.
If the human race in star trek was serious about the prime directive, they would apply it to themselves, say home on Earth, and advance science and technology at their "own pace".
Picard had the chance to let Wesley dies and passed? that sad I hated that jerk.
I always assumed the rule was created to stop Captains from pulling a Kirk and having thousands of children through out the galaxy.
No...that's allowed!
😂😂😂😂👍Good one Katrina!
If that's the case then what the hell is Commander Riker doing 😮😂
Kirk still found a work around.
Riker only does it with post-warp women.
“That’s not cannon yet!!” - that was always my fav line from Picard in the Symbiosis Episode
Chase Carter
Not "cannon" - that is a weapon - but "canon" - the collection of ideas and principles that create and maintain the world in which the characters inhabit.
@@adolfodef Oh shit. TNG Abridged would be hilarious.
Not a Star Trek buff, but wasn't the whole point of the Vulcan helping after first contact that with wapr travel, humanity had reached a level of technology that allowed them to be contacted and 'interfered' with? So how is this a contradiction?
My personal Canon is based on Chaos theory !
@@ViolosD2I Yes...but so what? The claim was that more advanced civilizations interacting with less advanced civilizations was always disastrous for the less advanced civilization. By no stretch of the imagination could the post-apocalyptic Earth of First Contact be described as the technological equals of the Vulcans just because one of Earth's few remaining scientists said "Hold my beer" and built a half-assed warp drive. While the Vulcans were compliant with the Prime Directive's letter and it's an example of the reason why the Prime Directive has that cutoff (because otherwise the Vulcans were looking at a bunch of Mad Max characters spilling out into space to raid planets and pirate ships) it's still an example of a more technologically advanced civilization intervening to "help" a less advanced one and it turning out just fine.
The prime directive is a law, made by law makers. It is exactly what it needs to be: a way for Star Fleet to disavow the actions of a captain (or any member of Star Fleet really) should anything go wrong. And should things turn out fine then they just don't mention it.
The Federation is basically a vaguely fascist libtatorship who sends loose cannons as far as possible from home so that they can be someone else's problem and not start any wars or revolutions (ie 'Emperor Tiberius' of the Mirror Universe).
@@lanadrey5085 Can you explain what a "facist libtatorship" is and how the Federation is one?
So like don't ask don't tell but for interfering with undiscovered civilizations
Or how SOCOM works
It's the EULA for space explorers. It's not about what you can it can't actually do, but if you signed the agreement you can't really sue the company when you choose to break the agreement and use your device in a way that was unintended.
Sounds like Star Fleet needs a JAG Corps!
"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom. It is indolence."- Big Louie
Yes. Go vegan.
sounds more like Big Karen to me.
Good one! Picard said it best in "Justice" when he said no law should be absolute. That includes the Prime Directive.
_When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?_
-- Cmdr. William T. Riker
Picard and Data have a nice scene at the end of "Pen Pals," as well, where Picard tells Data that by violating the Prime Directive to help Sarjenka's planet, he reminded them all that there are some obligations that transcend their duty as members of Starfleet.
its okay to let a bunch of no name aliens die but when Wesley is in danger Picard will happily tear up the prime directive. i thought it was right to challenge it in this case but it shows the directive is flawed
Actually, I think that's one of the real purposes of the Prime Directive in the Star Trek universe. Yes, it's an important lesson about the damage that can be caused by interfering with lesser developed civilizations, but all of the best Captains have either violated or seriously bent the Prime Directive at times to positive results. We've also seen good Captains stick to it unquestioningly at times, only to leave the characters and the audience with a sense that there had to be something that could have been done. So, while the more direct meaning behind the rule is vitally important, I think we're left with an equally important idea that taking anything too far can lead to tragedy...no matter how well the intentions were.
Picard explained the Intent of prime directive in that Episode
The Nibiru weren't just "pre warp"
They were PRE STEAM ENGINE.
Maybe even pre wheel
Pre sail
Technically all the replies in this thread counts as "pre warp" .
pre Coffee Bean & Tea Leaf
Pre - dab.
What?
They could have conceivably had no knowledge of dabbing or any other similar equivalent gesture.
Just saying.
I would argue the Prime Directive is like Asimov's Three Laws Of Robotics - interesting not in how it's upheld, but rather in how it's broken.
Good point. The Laws of Robots are there so Asimov can show how they don't work.
The Prime Directive seems to me more like guidelines. Some principle that should be followed, but there are exceptions under the right circumstances. Basically like most laws today, strict enough to say what is bad, but vague enough so the courts can interpret in each individual case.
If memory serves the didn't the Laws work pretty much perfectly? In the book at least (bear in mind I haven't read it in years so if I'm misremembering I'm sorry) if a Robot came to the same conflict between serving humanity and ensuring the safety of humanity (aka the main problem a lot of people seem to point out with the laws and also the thing that caused Viki to rebel in the movie), one of two things would happen. Either they'd be stuck in a logic loop until they shut themselves down, or in the case of several very powerful AI from the book, they just never actively rebelled and worked to put themselves in a position where they basically ran everything for humanity, by convicting people it would just be more convenient to let AI manage things. Essentially they took over the planet without anyone even noticing, and no one ever did because they just ran things so well and without causing any problems that would make people think fight back against them. The only case I can think of was when one Robot went "insane" and took over the space station they were working on, convincing themselves the humans on board didn't exist, but even then it was really just the Robot trying to do something they knew the humans wouldn't let them do but was ultimately for their own good.
@@somerandomschmuck2547 There were at least five books in Asimov's robot series. In the books, there was no law to protect humanity programmed into any robot, the three laws were about not harming human beings as individuals, obeying commands given by human beings, and self-preservation, in that order. They were etched into the positronic brain so deep they couldn't be consciously violated by the robot, like their brains would fry if they tried to violate them. The stories often had to do with how these laws interacted, like one robot got stuck in a loop because it was ordered to do something that would have destroyed it, and it was expensive so was given a stronger sense of self-preservation than normal, so it was just wandering around the surface of Mercury spouting nonsense until a human's life was in danger in its presence and that broke the loop. I think there was another part mentioned where people tried making warships with positronic brains and told them that the other warships it was fighting were like itself, no humans just other robots. But when it found out it was harming humans its brain fried itself. The laws were pretty immutable, and eventually sentient/conscious artificial life stopped being used because the three laws somewhat limited their usefulness at executive-level decision-making, and at more basic levels it was just, they took 'er jerbs!
"Jean-Luc that's a waffle"
We might forget about pancakes as well
🎶 Waffle, waffle, waffle. Waffle, waffle, waffle. Waaaaaafle... 🎵
Jean Luc is French. Maybe it was a Belgian Waffle.
“Jean-Luc that’s a waffle” I almost died 🤣
So did i
Yeah that was great lmao
I really enjoy his silly little skits with the episodes they're great!
“Jean-Luc…that’s a waffle. “ Dead. Pan. 😂
"Well I'm French, so I have high standards for food."
They eat waffles too Jean luc
Joshua Wells "Funny, you have a very British accent for a Frenchman"
luftwaffles!!!
@@bigdaddydudely2002 That's right I have Dutch Stroopwaffles with my caffé in Paris.
"The only thing evil needs to go on is the passiveness of good people."
"the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
@@qaesarx In a way you're both right. Good and evil can become orderly forces, just like a dictatorship born through military conquest.
Good can unfortunately allow the fester of evil to survive an unbearable amount of time. Constant forgiveness to the hateful and ungrateful. Someone has to go to hell and drag down sinners, so that paradise can exist clean. Evil pays its price to do good sometimes.
One argue that if German win WW2, then German would've been what US is today, fighting for freedom all around the world, and all the evil things they done is necessary for the cause.
All evil was done under the illusion of doing good. Even Hitler believe what he done was for the good of the people. Believe it or not "The only thing evil needs to go on is the passiveness of good people." is a mantra favored by most tyrants.
@@fadlya.rahman4113 That's not true. The ugly truth is that their purity tests would have continued right on to their own self destruction. That is after all their final solution.
I think they lost the meaning of the Prime Directive after TOS. Kirk had the best feel for how it was to be interpreted. It applied to developing societies, allowing the saving of endangered civilizations or ones that had stopped developing. Contrary to TNG guidelines, Starfleet actually sent the Enterprise to prevent the destruction of a primitive society in The Paradise Syndrome.
Doctor Crusher is a heavy metal name lol
Crusher fears Pulaski.
I would say there's an excellent rock-paper-scissors dynamic here but I'm not too sure Pulaski is scared of Bones, or much of anything, outside of transporters
M Friend made it the name of an NPC cage wrestler troll in shadowrun. His sparing partner was Locky Balboa
@@TypingHazard it's not rock paper scissors as much as a food chain
I would watch a whole 2 hour video of you re-dubbing conversations between Picard and Crusher.
Yes! It's almost as awesome as the SFDebris Janeway
+Steve Shives Make it so. XD
I agree! That was so funny :)
ikr! Esp loved the closing conversation over breakfast
If you like that, I recommend you check out the _Ensign's Log_ podcast by Steve Shives and Jason Harding. It's set within the original Star Trek series, and Steve and Jason play as two ensigns whom observe the events through their characters' point of view. Top notch humor!
5:40 TNG is actually probably the only show where if nothing bad happens and everything goes to plan, it's still really entertaining. One of my favourite episodes is S4 Ep2, Family, where after dealing with the Borg, the enterprise docks at Earth and Piccard visits his family and settles his differences with his brother.
I STILL remember scenes from that episode, even after having watched it over 20 years ago. Wow.
The "Family" episode was the perfect follow-up to the two-parter "The Best of Both Worlds." Those three episodes are in my top 10.
As a star fleet captain, If I saw chimp like beings on an unknown planet sitting on sharp and protuding objects, I would not interfere.
With the alien addict episode I always just think the ferengi pulled up after they left and cut themselves in on the action
That surprisingly makes sense
They did say what happened in a lower decks episode
While I generally agree with your arguments, I think drawing the line at warp drive isn't arbitrary. The invention of warp drive is the point when a species can start interfering with other civilizations. They are no longer living in isolation and can impact the galactic community.
Right, but it's still possible for more advanced societies to interfere in the further development of _their_ culture, too. It just seems like the concern about that goes away, or is at least greatly diminished, once a planet develops warp drive.
The thing about warp drive is if you have it, you have the ability to produce and contain anti-matter as well as manipulate spacetime. At that point, you can destroy planets at will so intervention and goodwill become a matter of self-preservation for the more advanced species. I don't feel that it's diminished so much as, "Now they can threaten our way of life so we should make sure they see our existence as a benefit rather than a hindrance." And they do it just enough to keep the new kid on the block happy without giving away every piece of tech they have.
Similar to how the Vulcan policy is based around discretely slowing down technological advancement of less advanced species while still throwing out the occasional breadcrumb to keep them happy.
cultures grow and evolve over time. The point of non interfering until warp is achieved is to permit a species' culture to develop naturally until they reach the point that they can begin reaching out and making contact with other civilizations. You can then treat them as peers and have a rich cultural exchange instead of wiping out anything that made them unique and turning them into clones of yourself just with ear ridges or something.
+TheBrothergreen You're reading things into my comment that aren't there. I was addressing the point about whether warp drive was an arbitrary line, not whether the overall reasoning behind the Prime Directive was morally just.
To me, it seems like Warp technology is their line of demarcation because that's what brought the Vulcan's to Earth. The problem is, different cultures are affected by technology in different ways. The real test should be cultural rather than technological. In other words, how likely are they to think we're Gods or some such if we showed up to help. Are they already seriously considering the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. Things like that. One's level of technology doesn't necessarily mean that all of those other potential issues have been ironed out. It just means that if they go nuts at the revelation, they're more capable of causing real problems. Think of it in terms of The Orville, in which you have a technologically advanced race (the Krill) that is still a fanatically religious species. It's possible to not have advanced technology and have a rational and measured society. It's also possible to have advanced technology and be fanatical and a danger to everyone else around you.
'THAT'S NOT CANON YET.'
I almost spat out my green tea in laughter.
Star Trek: An advance civilisation oppresses a less advance one,the federation does nothing
Babylon 5: An advance civilisation oppresses a less advance one,B5 declares war on them
CatNadian B5 is right in this case.
the federation would intervene, though, there's several episodes where they prevent klingons/romulans/whomever from interfering with the development of primitive people. allowing someone else to break the prime directive would make them complicit.
The B5 spinoff _Crusade_ had an interesting episode when they stumbled on a planet where the government was aware alien civilizations existed but kept it a secret, and the crew stumble on Alien Mulder and Alien Scully (no, really, they were parodies of Mulder and Scully) and find out (thanks to Alien Cigarette Smoking Man) that the government was secretly running a con where they denied aliens existed but allowed enough to leak out so that conspiracy theorists like Alien Mulder thought that aliens were engaged in a conspiracy to take control of the planet. That way, when things went wrong, people would blame the aliens (that the government officially denied existed) and not the perfectly mundane explanations of political incompetence and/or corruption. He thanks Gideon and the crew for their inadvertent interactions with Alien Mulder because Alien Mulder was starting to lose confidence in his beliefs, but now that he's come face to face with real live humans and absolutely knows they exist, his confidence is restored, Alien Scully is also a full believer, and they'll continue spreading the message about the evil humans plotting against the people of the planet.
At the end of the episode, the _Excalibur_ is leaving the system and Gideon is so annoyed that humans are being made the scapegoats that he orders a mass bombardment of the planet...with copies of the most recent version of encyclopedias carried by the ship and allowing the people who stumble across them to learn what's really going on beyond their planet. When his first officer points out they're interfering with the development of the planet's civilization, the obvious shout out to the Prime Directive, Gideon turns to him and bluntly states "I don't care."
@@keith6706 I personally would be fine with that except from a government agency. If YOU want to overthrow the Taliban, I wish you luck. But NO WAY should the US government be allowed to get involved. They can't do anything right and, frankly, aren't trying.
@@richardarriaga6271 That's absolutely bad-ass. And I can't believe I haven't watched that show yet. I saw a few episodes when I was a pre-teen and loved it. I'm crazy about older sci-fi.
Picard seemed to increase in intelligence a lot after being assimilated and then rescued from assimilation.
being connected to an all-knowing hive mind tends to do that
Until the episode "Homeward" came along.
Don't interfere with the development of other species that are not warp capable unless there lives are in immanent mortal danger or danger of extinction. That would fix about 90 percent of the problems with the prime directive. Although you would think the prime directive would be don't piss of an hostile alien empire.
It was also cited in TNG as the reason the Federation wasn't going to take sides in the Klingon Civil War, but then, in the interest of upholding the Prime Directive, they blockaded the Romulan Star Empire from supplying the Duras sisters with weapons and supplies. Its very flexible when the security of the Federation is at stake.
Yeah, that would work fine, until the respective species is on the brink of planetary war and thus wiping THEMSELVES out. Then you get into the question of, should we interfere to protect a somewhat violent species against themselves? Like, wouldn't it be nice if the Vulcans did that when we were lobbing nuclear bombs at each other?
@@Solon7766 Both Romulan and Klingon are warp capable. Romulan interference into Klingon affairs changes the balance of power which UFP's security interest is affected.
@@Solon7766 fed were taking sides all ready by becoming arbitor of suucsession and taking over police investigation
makes me wonder... if an advanced civilization stopped the extinction of the dinosaurs on Earth, would humanity have ever evolved?
The beginning of this video reminds me of a joke.
Jean-Luc: "Wesley. Do you know the difference between the Prime Directive and your mother?"
Wesley: "What's that, Captain?"
Jean-Luc: "I have never violated the Prime Directive."
😂😂
Dr Crusher: "You didn't violate me, either, I loved it"
This has probably been posted here a dozen times already, but just in case; The Vulcans only initiated first contact with humans because it detected the warp signature of Zephram Chochran's experimental ship. The rule is once a race achieves FTL space travel then they are no longer a less advanced species, then they can stand on almost equal footing with the rest of the space faring races.
"Jean-Luc, that's a waffle."
Headcanon accepted.
"Homeward" and the prologue of "Star Trek: Into Darkness" are examples of times when The Prime Directive was overridden in order to save civilizations from extinction and give them an opportunity to continue their development without further interference. In these cases I think ignoring The Prime Directive was acceptable. We may never know if this was done for us at some point albeit in the world of Star Trek or the real world.
The difference, though, is that Into Darkness had a Captain (Kirk) violating it, and Homeward had someone who wasn't a captain (Nikolai and Worf, both). In both cases, the individuals in question tried to help in ways that wouldn't violate the directive (at least until Pike decided that volcanoes fall under "natural development of a society" even though volcanoes, while natural, are not something a society that primitive can in any way control. If a society develops nukes and wipes themselves into extinction overnight, THAT would be a natural development of their own doing). In Homeward... Picard didn't even WANT to consider options to save ANYONE, even if those options included ways to avoid violating the Directive outright. He was like, "Nope. Let 'em all die. I gotta get my Janeway on today!"
Disappointed there were no Voyager clips... Janeway seems to follow or break the prime directive depending on her mood that day. See: Scorpion.
yeah and didn't they get stranded there because she didn't want to violate it? Jesus Christ, Katherine. How did they not mutiny???
Oh wait-
To be fair, Janeway and the crew of the Voyager were in survival mode at that point. The only directive that mattered at that point was the Omega Directive, and only because not following the Omega Directive would be disastrous on a galactic scale.
Janeways hair bun could also magically make torpedo's who wants to piss off that
Janeway's reasoning was, "My responsibility is to get my crew home, which means the Prime Directive doesn't matter (unless and until I decide otherwise)."
Breaking the prime directive was fine if it was done for plot reasons.
I think that Mass Effect handles the philosophy behind the prime directive in regards to the Krogan better than Star Trek ever did.
'YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE KROGAN!'
That line just hit you right in the feels with Wrex, after nearly an entire game of build up.
Obviously it was going to go bad. The Citadel Council didn't go in and teach the Krogan how to behave. They USED the Krogan. They needed supersoldiers to fight their war. It was exploitation, plain and simple, and the ultimate result should've been clear from the very beginning.
@@TheSuperRatt Funny thing is that if they'd bumped into the Krogan before they'd nuked themselves into oblivion things would have gone better.
Technically, Nikolai did not violate the prime directive. It applies to Starfleet Personnel, but not Federation citizens. What made it a prime directive issue had more to do with the fact that Nikolai refused to leave without his family thus forcing the Enterprise to either abandon him or violate the prime directive.
the fact that Federation citizens are not bound by the prime directive is a major oversight in my opinion. It means that while Starfleet can't save a planet facing imminent destruction, a wealthy Earthling can easily conquer a developing Society and face no repercussions. in fact, the Ferengi did this in a Voyager episode, and the only reason why Starfleet was allowed to interfere was because they entered the Wormhole during a federation hosted event making it a federation created problem. If not for that one technicality the planet would have been theirs, legally speaking, and these oversights basically make the prime directive even worse in practice than it already is.
Eh, those Ferengi would have eventually either died of old age or been overthrown when enough people got sick of their bullshit. Plus, they were in the Delta Quadrant, and whatever damage they had done would be undone in a few generations, especially when people realize "Hey... these guys died of old age! Gods don't die! These bastards were frauds!"
Janeway got involved because she was determined to take as much time as possible to avoid entering the wormhole to get home so that she could keep Voyager in the Delta Quadrant and make her crew continue suffering for her amusement.
If it only applies to starfleet, how come merchants aren't the ones making first contact?
@@jimskywaker4345there was a Disney ride about what happens to species who do this. Something something, man eating alien teleported.
Janeway was notorious in breaking the Temporal Prime Directive
The reasons for non-interference in "Dear Doctor" were invalid and showed Archer and especially Phlox in a very bad light:
First of all, the Prime Directive (which was not invented at the time as we all know) could not apply since the people affected by the disease, albeit not yet warp-capable, had already started to go into Space and seek contact with other species.
Furthermore, Phlox's assumption that the one people was destined to go extinct and the disease causing the deaths of millions was a natural process that was supposed to happen is also faulty. Evolution is not a determined process with a fixed goal like it is presented in "Dear Doctor". One species is not doomed and supposed to perish so that another one that shows some signs of an evolutionary process can flourish. That is just an oversimplification of the Theory of Evolution that leads to huge misunderstandings on the development of life and its adaptation to its environment.
I disagree. Phlox discovered that the condition of the aliens was not an ordinary disease and that the Menk had the potential to evolve beyond their current evolutionary state. He and Archer just recognized that there was more at stake than what lied on the surface. The reason for their non-interference was that they didn't knew all the consequences of their actions, so they decided to do nothing at all. This is in line with ethical theories like the Kantian one.
@@panther7748 that is such moral cowardice
@@panther7748From a medical perspective, the only consequences that mattered were curing the disease or not. Which is why Crusher was such an advocate for interfering & providing addiction relief. Her primary ethical obligation is to treat disease & end suffering, so when she saw it she wanted to do just that.
Phlox was faced with far worse consequences for not intervening (generations of suffering & eventual extinction instead of withdrawals) & yet said essentially: “f-it. Clearly they got bad genes, so I guess the universe wants them dead or something; who am I to interfere with destiny… I mean evolution.”
His social darwinist nonsense about the Menk rising up is basically just the weak should perish logic. Since when do doctors allow those too weak to fight off infections die? His logic could literally be extended to deny medical interventions for any disease:
What a nasty virus you got there; I could give you this hypospray that’ll cure you but I won’t cuz your body needs to either tough it out or else you were meant to die. Because you see Jim over there. Well, he’s doing just fine cuz he’s genetically immune to it, so letting you die is just letting evolution run its course.
What absolute nonsense. He should have lost his medical license for it.
You know what’s interesting is the “rule” is only ever referred to. It’s hard to interpret something when you don’t know what it is
I bet the go’uld wished Stargate Command had a prime directive.
Something8830 i would like this statement a thousand times if I could.
I bet humanity wished the Goa'uld had had a prime directive too... ;)
Gould have mostly inslaved humans
You got a wide variety of prime directives displayed in Stargate series... the Asguard demonstrate a more sensible 'prime directive' type of thing. You are able to make contact if your society has advanced enough to solve certain questions. And then the Tolons have a more extreme version of prime directive, which is practicably the same as startreks - we wont help, no matter what. and then there are the Narcs.... They would save anyone, even the bad guys! But only if the problem is in their face,... if it is something bad happening somewhere else, then they dont give a crap. So in conclusion, the Asguard are the most benevolent race, doing more to help the universe than any of the other recalcitrant basteds.
If you follow the absurd extreme version of the Prime Directive that says you can't interfere to help someone even if it's to help them overcome suffering they experienced after someone else even more advanced than you already intervened to hurt them, then yes, that would hinder Stargate Command.
Essentially, all of human history in Stargate is the result of Goa'uld who, while they did help spread humans across the galaxy, exploited and harmed humans in almost every other way. A majority of human groups Stargate Command meets are less advanced than humans on Earth, in part because they are in small colonies, but mainly because they gained freedom from the Goa'uld more recently than the humans of Earth and the Goa'uld hindered their development.
Oh look! An incredibly vague, all important rule used by a large organization to avoid responsibility. Never heard THAT before :P
Pretty interesting video.
I just started watching Star Trek, but I always thought the prime directive was supposed to be scientific rule as opposed to a moral one.
It’s kind of like an experiment, you’re supposed to observe the results, not create the results you want.
I think it’s supposed to be an amoral rule which is funny given how morally righteous star fleet is. It’s a weirdly inhuman standard they hold themselves to.
I was under the impression the Prime Directive explicitly ended when a civilization developed warp technology, thereby exempting the Vulcans from violating it with earth. But no idea if that is true.
It seems logical.
There wasn't any Prime Directive until the United Federation of Planets was formed and that didn't exist until long after the Earth had developed warp propulsion.
I'd love to see a star trek episode where they meet up with another federation like entity that uses hyperspace (or wormholes) instead of ftl and that would be their prime directive trigger.
It wouldn't "trigger" it. Most species use a form of the warp engine because it is sort of the "logical" way to achieve faster-than-light travel. But what the directive really refers to is the ability of interstellar space travel.
those are still ftl
@@panther7748 I think ftl communication also counts but that might have been a beta canon interpretation
What the Prime Directive actually means is: "Don't get involved unless you know exactly what you are doing!"
And how often do we know "exactly" what we're doing? We cannot see all the consequences of our actions.
@@tenhirankei Like when a captain turned a planet's population into literal Nazis, because the way he saw it, at least Nazis got shit done. Who could have know that would go wrong?
Do any of us ever know exactly what we are doing... and, what about all of life? I see a man on the street looking for food in a dumpster. I give him a few dollars. I offer him my gloves and scarf. ... it turns out, I've set in motion events that will bring about his redemption/reformation as a human being. In 20 years he writes great novels that win prizes or has gotten an education and helps mankind in some other worthy way. OR -- in 20 years he is married, has a son and his son becomes the next terrible dictator that kills millions in a horrific war. Is either outcome my fault? I meant well.
I quote Tolkien : "not even the wise can see all ends. "
@@schwarzerritter5724 Well, anyone with a functioning brain would have known what would go wrong. And John Giles, the man in question, apparently did not have a functioning brain. There's a difference between helping people and teaching them to be Nazis.
Like Into Darkness TOS also had the crew working within the Prime Directive to save a species from a natural disaster (in that case a meteor impact). It was the B plot in the episode where Kirk losses his memories and "goes native" among a bunch of white actors in red face.
One day a civilization will declare war because star fleet let them almost die.
No they won't. If they had the means to declare war on the federation they wouldn't have almost died in the first place. They'll either save themselves and be stronger for it, or die.
@@PinocchioThePupppet in STO that happened. Iconians had declared war on Federation\Klingon alliance,mostly thanks to Temporal Prime Directive breach.
It actually already happened in voyager. When earths space probe carrying greetings and plans for warp tech ended up putting a planet into the ice age because they accidentally exploded said warp tech. The survivors then wanted nothing more than to destroy anyone associated with earth because earths true goal (according to their thinking) was to act like friends but then let them kill off their own people with this tech they weren't ready for and steal their planets. Lucky for earth, they were very far away and they exploded themselves back to the ice age so they couldn't actually declare war on them.
@@PinocchioThePupppet and it's exactly that kind of callous disregard for others' wellbeing that has resulted in so many problems on this planet
@@PinocchioThePupppet Anyone can declare war, not everyone can win.
necrontyr: you can fix our species wide cancer !
old ones : that would violate our prime directive
necron: AHHHHHH* 65 million years of war *
I think S F Debris summed this up best: the prime directive had existed for so long by TNG that it had been accepted as dogma instead of as a guiding principle.
The Symbiosis episode doesn't make sense in another context, as there are 2 planets. If the government of one planet wanted help, shouldn't it be their place to ask the Federation for help?
I would break the prime directive 2 save civilians from going extinct
Thanks for liking my comment
Kind of like how I’d stop an animal killing and eating another animal in the wild!
so fictional politics is actually the same as actual politics
If you stop and think about it, we have the same basic wants and desires we had 200 yrs ago , the future won't be any different.
if they can’t call for help, they must die...
that’s essentially how the prime directive works when faced with saving a civilization from extinction or doing nothing. if they don’t have the technology to travel really fast, then they aren’t a ‘higher’ species and therefore must be left to die. never mind the fact that they have no idea help is out there, and they don’t have the capability of asking for it when they need it. that makes it more horrific imo
Archer and Phlox: "Ha ha society go brrrt"
First season TNG is a terrible guide to go by. As far as I'm concerned, the Prime Directive works well, as a PRINCIPLE that technologically-advanced space-faring cultures need to be careful about their influence on cultures that aren't there yet. What that means will vary from case to case; but in the case of the Space Drug Pushers, both planets were clearly into warp technology, so the PD isn't even a factor. Basically, it was an example of writers writing above their pay grade, trying to make deep philosophical arguments they didn't even understand.
Warp technology is beside the point of the prime directive. The philosophical question of the prime directive is about the wisdom of meddling in situations that you've only just discovered and therefore cannot possibly fully understand. Obviously at first glance it looks like helping those people with their drug problem would be the best thing to do, but we've only just met these people and they are an alien civilization that could easily subvert our expectations. We might be making things worse in ways we don't understand, so the prime directive says that Starfleet is to always try to avoid interfering in these kinds of situations.
Certainly it is much easier to avoid interference in pre-warp civilizations since you can just leave them alone. Once a civilization has warp drive then it is much harder to stay neutral since the people you meet can follow you home. Even so, the basic concept of non-interference still makes just as much sense.
TNG has been deeply hypocritical in its use of the PD on several occasions. In the case of "Symbiosis," Picard immediately jumped at the chance to help them fix their ships. Once he learned that one planet was screwing the other he claimed PD and reneged on the repair deal.
kingbeauregard . Did they have warp tech though? I thought they only had interplanetary travel. But that episode had more to do with the provision of non-interference in other cultures and internal affairs.
yea pretty sure they were limited to travel within their system otherwise they would've been free to do a lot more to help.
In Symbiosis if he had interfered not only would it have started a "war" as they did not have weapons to fight the Federation but the other planet did not understand they were being used so to stop the shipments that way would have caused a @!$ load of consperices and misunderstanding in the populus against the Federation; so, Picard stoping the shipments and walking away was the only way to make sure that both civilizations truly realized what happened. The main push for the non-interferance is the "Klingon" incedent that caused them to be at war (remember Vulcans were not the first race we meet originaly that would be the Centarins).
As for letting the people know about you is great but when the whole point is not to contaminate the culture that doesn't work. "interesting acsent ... oh your from the neighboring village." Screw up happens. "Let's go kill our neighbors" O.O
Could you elaborate on Section 31 please? The black ops sector of the federation!
Section 31 is a intelligence and covert ops organization operating independently from the Federation but it's main goal is the protection of the Federation and all it's citizens by any means necessary.
In a nutshell, they are the CIA but turned Evil and made the Federation stupid enough to die by mundane means.
implying that the CIA is not evil...
Less CIA and more ONI from Halo.
Section 31 is actually run by a computer program. It has human agents because it needs hands on operatives to function, but "the director" is actually the program. None of the higher ups of the organization ever meet with the director in person, he just appears in darkness to them on a screen issuing them orders, and they are oblivious to this. Section 31 started as a 22nd century Federation security program, and just went and grew from there.
I've long thought that a good plot line for an episode would have been for the Federation to encounter a tech advanced, but not warp capable, planet with nuclear weapons and involved in its own cold war. Two major nations are on the brink of slugging it out with nuclear weapons and even initiate massive launches.
Does a starship captain just sit idly by while the world dies?
Agree... A lot of the inconsistency is, as you said, due to writing and interpretation... In some cases it's okay, even laudable, to break the Prime Directive; in others it's the worst offense a Starfleet officer or scientist can commit. Its this lack of consistency that really makes it confusing, but that's because of the fact that it's a rather basic tenet that plays into so many of the stories, written by so many different people, and presenting so many different dilemmas.
For instance, the first season episode "Justice" where Picard violates the Prime Directive to save Wesley from a death sentence for smashing up a flower bed on a planet where *ANY AND ALL* crime is punishable by death... but isn't allowed to simply "transport out" with Wesley by the inscrutable and powerful "godlike" aliens looking out for the planet... And whose minds are apparently changed by an impassioned diatribe on law and justice by Picard...
Admiral Satie questions Picard on his "violating the Prime Directive a total of *nine times* since taking command of the Enterprise" because it "certainly shocked the hell out of her". Evidently *all* of these instances were judged "justified" reasons for violating the PD, since Picard had obviously not been court martialed and drummed out of Starfleet or sent to prison. (I assume most of these "instances" were "on film" as series episodes at this point).
Another "reason" for the PD was seen in the TOS episodes "A Piece of the Action", where a previously visiting Federation (Earth prior to the Federation founding, aka "Archer's time period") had visited the planet and found a pre-industrial humanoid civilization, and gave them some "harmless" technological advances-- diagrams of how to build radios and things of that sort, and somehow left behind a book entitled "Chicago Gangs of the 20's" that basically they adopted as a blueprint for their society and which basically became their "Bible" of sorts... Another similar episode along the same vein is "Patterns of Force" where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy end up on a planet ruled by Nazis, under severe oppression and wiping out a neighboring planet in their system that was slightly more advanced and had been making contact with them... an aging Federation scientist, studying in the more primitive planet's culture, had apparently used the model of the Nazi's organizational skills that they used to turn Germany around after the loss of WWI and turn it into a major world power in a matter of a few years, to attempt to invigorate or organize the primitive society and help them advance, not realizing the massive concentration of power involved would prove too much of a temptation for their leaders and give them the tools to become as sadistic and powerful as the Nazis did in Germany. (Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.) Kirk is horrified that his mentor did this, and he's sorrowful that he did, and made the monumental mistake of thinking he could "control it this time, so it would turn out different".
Then, as you pointed out in "bread and circuses" how exactly do you chose to handle such an obvious problem with the Prime Directive-- there's no "existential threat" to the society; despite the fact that its a brutal dictatorship and enslaving millions and killing all who oppose it... in fact the aliens are the aggressors in the episode; they captured and killed the crew of the vessel Kirk was sent to investigate the disappearance of because 1) they didn't want their "alien ideas" contaminating their society, and 2) the were xenophobic and didn't want other aliens learning about their planet and coming to their world and possibly interfering in their culture. In the end Kirk and company escape, Merrick the traitorous Starfleet officer who became a turncoat and helped the natives destroy his fellow Starfleet officers gets killed, Kirk and company reflect on the bridge on the similarity between Earth's Roman Empire and their society, and Uhura explains their puzzling misinterpretation of the slave's religion-- they're not *SUN* worshippers, they're *SON* worshippers-- the Son of God.
So after Kirk noting they had them both-- Caesar and Christ, all is well with the universe and off they fly, as McCoy notes the new movement's philosophy of "total love, brotherhood, and peace" implying that it's just a matter of time until the Imperial Roman society collapses and is reformed or replaced... after no telling HOW many millions suffer and die, or how bloody an insurrection or civil war or holy war erupts to overthrow the old order... But of course "we cannot interfere in the natural course of evolution of this species"...
Actually, "Bread and Circuses" presents the type of argument that, in this case, the PD is a good idea... suppose you try to interfere and prevent all those deaths and suffering as the planet shifts from the existing order to the new philosophy... Good to reduce deaths and suffering, right?? BUT what if in the process you make them even MORE xenophobic, and prompt the rise of a NEW order, or that the old one prevails and is even MORE determined to prevent such alien intervention in the future... and basically throws its entire society into an "arms race" to develop the technological capacity to make sure they can never be interefered with again, and become some sort of super-space Nazis in the process?? This is the sort of thing the PD was designed to prevent.
The other thing is, the PD is rather simplistic at the heart of it... Okay, the FEDERATION obeys these rules, Starfleet chief among them (most of the time, anyway, or when they DO violate it they are either justified or ATTEMPT to justify the interference, like Admiral Mark Jameson giving weapons to BOTH sides in the conflict on Mordan IV after Karnas kidnaps a contingent of Federation people and threatens to kill them if *he* does not get advanced Federation weapons). Presumably, Federation law also bars its citizens from interfering in the affairs of lesser developed races within Federation space (can you imagine a group of 23rd century "Jehovah's Witnesses" flying around the galaxy to less developed planets to "bring them the word" or some sort of interplanetary "peace corps" or charities flying all over the galaxy to "help" more impoverished or backwards planets?? Remember the trouble they got into when Beverly was kidnapped by the Ensata terrorists who then tried to blow up the ship and kidnapped Picard, and Riker and crew had to team up with the local police/military to assault their compound and kill their leader in "The High Ground"??) BUT, while the Federation can pass this law and enforce it on it's citizens, and possibly even its trading partners doing business with the Federation and its member planets, what about the nonaligned planets like Bajor, among many others?? What about the Federation's enemies or planets choosing not to join the Federation, like the way the Klingons armed the villagers with flintlocks in the TOS episode "A Private Little War"?? Certainly there is little/nothing Starfleet could do to stop or prevent such incursions by enemies or nonaligned planets... What happens when you have a planet that is dedicated to the idea of "helping" less developed societies and it is part of their core beliefs, and they fan out into the galaxy intending to 'help' whomever and wherever they can? Does Starfleet attack them and try to prevent them or attempt to stymie them at every turn, out of dedication to the PD??
It's an interesting and complex issue and idea and one I'm not sure you can ever get a satisfactory answer to or definition of...
Later! OL J R :)
And yet I can easily sum up large portions of this problem with 'do not for any reason give information, knowledge, technology, science, philosophy, or anything else that may control, alter, or stimulate the civilization of any races that have not yet advanced to warp core capability.'
One could, of course, turn this into outright law - no post-warp core individuals may give such things to any pre-warp core peoples - and a few other pieces could easily be added on, including what to do when observing, either in space or on land, and what to do if one's actions accidentally lead to a leak of said philosophies, technology, etc; the last part may be difficult, but would likely include on-land observation and trained teams to extract such intel before it became too immersed within their culture. Long-term attempts to resolve the problem, like with Nibiru, would be necessary. But again, any moral law would need to put the lives of an entire race before the fear of accidentally altering their belief system or advancing their technology.
(And of course, as Steve stated, the 'pre-warp core' piece is a bit arbitrary and has its own problems; the fact that two planets with their own races met one another before developing warp cores, and thus already learned of alien races, shows that the Prime Directive fails immediately if it cannot account for that. A better choice would be when they reached 2 out of 3 (or so) 'goal posts' - a certain knowledge [evidence of life in outer space], a certain level of technology [warp core development], a certain level of ethical philosophy [peace before war, or laws mandating equality and just consequences without death penalties], etc.)
I came up with this in about ten minutes. Surely the Federation could have come up with something better with the years they've had to figure it out.
Thanks for the lengthy, detailed analysis! I was just thinking, those TOS episodes you mentioned--the ones with a civilization run by 1920s mobsters or return of the Nazis--were probably less interested in the morality of the prime directive, a legal stance that really becomes of greater importance within the Star Trek world later on in TNG and later. My guess is the writers had a cool idea for an episode, "Hey what if the Enterprise visited a world where _____ happened?" and then came up with an explanation to try to fit their creativity within the established mythos/canon of the show.
Wow, that is a very interesting logical paradox! I had never considered that! You suppose that an enemy or non-ally of the Federation is actively disrupting the natural order of a younger civilization. If Starfleet intervenes and stops this from happening, then they break their prime directive. If they do nothing, their prime directive will be broken anyway, just not by them. Although I suppose the answer to this scenario would be, "Try to stop the interference in secret without any natives finding anything out or minimal influence."
My impression of the Prime Directive is far less an adamantine commandment than it is a guideline which is subject to situational conditions, at least as represented by whether it's honored in the breach or observance in _Star Trek._ Fact is, by the time TNG comes along, I would expect there to be a required course in TPD for command-level personnel.
Boil it down, TPD is an observe-it-when-you-want / ignore-it-when-you-want element of _Star Trek_ culture, and damned little more than that.
Troubleshooter125 . I agree it's a guideline. I figure that in the ST universe ignoring the directive likely puts you under some kind of review and investigation, but only if it is warranted do they have some kind of disciplinary action. Otherwise every captain in all the series would have been court-martialed and possibly incarcerate.
Prime directive is a Star Fleet mandate, not a Federation Law. The civilians of Federation can go and do whatever the hell they want. But they usually don't have the resources and starships to do so.
It should be a guideline... But the term "directive" means an authoritative instruction. In other words, a command... A direct order. While the term "prime" means highest or most important. So "prime directive" literally means highest command or highest law.
"The Pirate Code is actually more of a guideline than a rule."
Maybe the Prime Directive was a more reasonable plan to prevent overpopulation and consumption of galactic resources than that devised by Thanos.
Exactly! just how far are you willing to get involved. At what point are you not literally playing God?
Thanos's plan is pointless anyway! He kills half of everyone...and any healthy high tech civilization will recoup those losses in two generations (if they breed at 'human' rates)...while less healthy or less tech developed races would be all but wiped out! In other words, the only lasting effect would be on peoples that were NOT overpopulated anyway.
James Newcomer He might just keep snapping his fingers every couple of decades. Or when he feels that population has gotten to high. I think he would see it as his duty to travel the galaxy monitoring the balanced cosmos he had made making sure it stays in check. Like a watchmaker adjusting a drifting clock.
Isn't Marvel Death literally just a skeleton?
Jack Evans marvel death is basically formless and can take any appearance.usually takes the form of a skeleton or sometimes a woman. In terms of pure sexiness Lady Death from the Evil Ernie series is smoking hot. Though I must say Death of the Endless from DC is my favourite female Death. For male death I do like the Death from the Discworld series, very humorous.
"we're leaving now and never coming back so it's whatever..." Must of laughed for 30 minutes straight!
Star Trek’s alternate title could be “How are we going to violate the prime detective this episode?”
I can see reasons for the prime directive, such as punishing any Star Fleet member acting as a god with a pre-wrap civilization. Yet the prime directive could only punish the offender after the fact. There's still nothing preventing a lone Star Fleet captain from beaming down to a plant, shoot a few phaser blasts, and demand that the natives worship them. Sure the rule is there to hold people back. But something tells me someone who would do something like that has enough ego to brake that rule regardless.
Though in one way the Prime Directive might actually help a space flight but still pre or early wrap civilization. In Enterprise the Vulcans sort of view themselves as shepherds of humanity and several other races. They use their overwhelming tech and promises of more knowledge to keep the other races a subservient state. It's only by defying their Vulcan over lords that humanity is able to grow as a people.
"Hey don't make that face at me Pike, I'm just asking questions!" LOL!
The correct implementation of something like a Prime Directive would be to (1) Not interfere in the internal affairs of another civilization, unless (2) someone in that civilization asks for your help, and (3) you think that the help they're asking you for is the right thing to do.
So you don't go barging into foreign affairs and making a mess of things where you're not wanted. But if the foreigners want your help, you're free to give it to them. Except you don't have to give it to them if you think they don't deserve it.
E.g. if the Space Nazis want your help Space Gassing the Space Jews, you can still say no to that. But if the Space Jews ask for defense against the Space Nazis, you can D-Day the Space Nazis all you want. And if all of space doesn't want your dirty Earthican hands meddling in their Star Wars, then you mind your own business.
I think the main problem with the Prime directive is not so much wether it's a good idea or not it's that the writers have never seemed able to come to a coherent idea of what it actually IS. the definitions of what exactly is and isn't allowed seem to change almost every time it comes up.
I don't see how the prime directive could be enforced anyway. Sure, I suppose Starfleet personel can be trained to respect it, but Starfleet is not the only space capable organization in the Federation, and Federation ships and people are not the only ones travelling in Federation space, and Starfleet cannot patrol all non Federation worlds all the time in case any of these decide to land for one reason or another and mess with those planets cultures, on purpose or not.
The whole point of the prime directive is to prevent reckless Starfleet personnel from fiddling with things that they don't understand. They are explorers going out there to learn, so they should not be expected to make competent decisions about the direction the galaxy should take. For all we know the Boraalans could later develop into an an existential threat to galactic civilization. That includes accepting the possibility that non-Starfleet ships might actually know what they are doing, especially ships from more advanced civilizations.
Non-interference is about the fact that Starfleet knows that it doesn't know what it's doing, so it would be like trying to be a surgeon without any medical training. Not only should you not be cutting people open, even when you have the intention of helping, but you also shouldn't try to get in the way of other people performing surgery because those other people might be actual surgeons. Just observe, try to learn everything you can, and stay out of the way.
I mean...it's a Star Fleet reg so those other parties don't matter. And it probably has a counterpart in Federation civilian law.
Playing 4X games have taught me that the player that does not aggressively take over small neutral factions and ramps them up ASAP to contribute to the war effort will soon be conquered by players that do. And the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians are players that do. You can bet that those players believe they are in a 4X universe.
there is one episode pretty much exactly like that. The enterprise returns to a planet that was visited before to find it now embroiled in a large scale war. The tech level of the planet was very primitive, like bow and arrows primitive, but one side had seemingly gained flintlock rifles much earlier then they really should have.
The crew discovers a klingon plot to secretly aide one faction to ensure it wins and declares an alliance with the klingon empire. So they do the only thing they can do, and provide the other faction with exactly the same tech level of weaponry to keep the battle fair.
Francois Lacombe I think it is more a forcing morals, and a absolute over reaction to the fear of it.
The episode with the Borallans was complicated slightly by the fact that one of the Borallans discovered the ruse and chose to commit suicide as a result. The implication being that the other Borallans would have done the same had they also known they had left their homeworld.
So it brings up a bit of an ethical conundrum around the right to die. If we know someone would rather die than be saved, then is saving them actually the ethical thing to do?
I agree though that in reality, such a prime directive would surely have any number of amendments made to it to deal with complex or unusual situations such as entire civilisations potentially being destroyed.
The Prime Directive is flawed because it hinges on the determination of what is natural and what is not. A Starship captain could witness a volcano decimate a planet and its population without blinking an eye, yet step in if a foreign alien power with advanced warp technology decided to exploit or wipe out that same planet. Is it actually unnatural though for an advanced alien power to do that? Arguably, since warp technology exists (in the star trek universe) it is a natural occurrence as in the sense that civilizations can develop it and therefore it is not novel, whether or not a particular civilisation has warp technology makes no difference to that. It would therefore not only be Starfleet's choice not to step in under any circumstances - but it's duty not to. It would have to merely watch as warp powered alien factions exploit or plunder less advanced ones.
The only proper 'natural' course of action is that which is natural to us as a species or to whatever faction we align. It is pomposity to believe in a moral superiority when our very existence in the universe itself is by definition interference.
Blowing up an asteroid that so much as gets in the way of a star ship could have implications for the development or panspermia of a galaxy. So to suggest we don't take part is a fallacy. We already have.
Benjamin Sisco actually addressed the concept of an invasion, somewhat indirectly, in Deep Space Nine. He tells Nerys: "Even if the Cardasians re supplying weapons to certain groups, the conflict itself is internal to Bajor." This statement implies that, in the event of inter-cultural conflict, they can interfere.
"Natural" means anything unaffected by human technology. This of course would not be a very useful definition once we meet aliens, so I think it's safe to say natural can mean anything unaffected by an intelligent species's technology. So, yes, it is unnatural for an advanced alien power to exploit or wipe out a planet
The prime directive doesn't ask captains to make a determination of what is natural and what is not.....................
It simply means mind your own business. It was never the mission of any starship to go and alter new civilizations, it was to discover and learn about them. No where in the mission does it say police or provide emergency services to alien worlds.
As I mentioned elsewhere, there is some fault on the writers end to not put things clearly. But when it reaches the audiance to a point, where they start to thing of what is right an wrong, even if all the characters on screen do the wrong thing, than the right messege has been delivered.
@@cowlinator Resource gathering is unnatural?
If they can help without revealing themselves.. i really fail to see the problem, even less considering how... the alternative is just 100 % annihilation
The Prime Directive is sometimes a bad idea, as interference would make sense in some situations like Symbiosis, or Into Darkness.
Some people do interpret it more strictly than necessary, precluding the best solution in a particular case.
Homeward Bound illustrates how the rule doesn't apply to Federation civilians, and minimizing the interference while still saving them seemed logical.
Maybe the rule makes sense overall as it prevents more damage than it allows.
Please never stop talking about star trek.
Crusher: What about Vulcans guiding the development of Earth following the events of First Contact.......
Picard: THAT'S NOT CANON YET!
"Every man is guilty of the good he did not do." Voltaire.
I always felt like there should be an obvious distinction between interfering in internal cultural affairs and interfering with physical/external threats like volcanos. You could make a much more complicated story about having to let a society destroy itself via something like a war or with climate change, where interfering might require you to overthrow the government or forcibly re-educate the population. At least the drug addict planet was a cultural problem, but the volcano thing....
The Prime Directive from a show standpoint is made to be debated and doubted, its the crux of the show and idea, it offers drama. From an in show POV the Prime Directive is a macro v micro view of sentient civilization. In the micro view of the here and now it seems like the good idea to interfere and help out people, but on a macro level and in the long run the interference violates and hurts that civilizations future natural evolution which can be far more damaging in the long run. It really comes down to the big picture.
Also you even say the Vulcans only made contact AFTER humans discovered warp drive. Thats keeping in tradition with the Prime Directive, even though its before thats even a thing. Lol As always love the vids keep em coming please!
I am kind of surprised you didn't talk about the episode where Data was in contact with a young girl from some random planet that was pre-warp and her planet was in danger.
“Jean-Luc that’s a waffle” 😂
The Prime Directive is a very necessary and moral rule.
That being said, it's a rule, not a law, and rules are meant to be broken.
Also, it's flaws are a good thing, because we can come in and improve on it.
Such distinctions between combatants are not always so clear.
The Prime Directive might simply not be based on ethical reasons but on the assumption that a certain level of cooperation is necessary to develop advanced tech.
Non-warp civilizations might grow into potential enemies if you supply them with technology before they've developed into a cooperative and relatively peaceful society. (Y'know, like we supplied the Taliban.) Some will form a relatively peaceful society that enables them to develop warp drive, others will die out before that. The ethical imperative of the Prime Directive is that the Federation doesn't go and destroy those potential enemies before they can pose an actual threat... but refusing them to help is _technically_ not the same as murdering them.
The admirality always get upset over officers helping non-warp civilizations bc they just _want_ them to die out. You can't have a wide-reaching government with all these newcomers popping out everywhere in your territory all the time... and that's how the Federation sees it: the planets these non-warp civilizations are inhabiting and the space around them are Federation property. That's also the reason why it doesn't matter if the Klingons intervene with non-warp civilizations in _their own_ territory where Federation/Starfleet jurisdiction does not apply.
that what i see directive bein in practise ultimetly fed dont give an fuck about lesser races it means nore to them
A few things.
1: Helping another people isn't always giving them technology, we have seen time and time again ways of helping without ever giving them technology. I do agree that it is dangerous to give technology to a race that is less advanced socially and politically.
2: If you see someone about to get stabbed in the heart and you just stand there and watch when you could have stopped it from happening, you are complicate in the murder and are therefore no better than the murderer. You have no moral high ground. The only exception is in the case of people who are extremely dangerous such as Hitler, Ganges Khan and Atilla The Hutt to name but a few.
3: You say the admirality want the pre-warp civilizations to die off so the Federation can take the land they believe is theirs but where is the proof of this?
@@boredfangerrude Re point 2: Justifiable homicide exists. Unless you (the putative neutral observer) knows everything (literally everything) there is to know about the participants in an apparently murderous act, you are interfering without adequate knowledge of who is "good and who is "bad" within your observed "murder scenario." Claiming a "moral high ground" reflects more on your own egocentricity, and less on some god-like understanding of what any scenario involving observed groups and individuals really represents. Let the neutral Directive rule. Stay out of it.
@@boredfangerrude Ah Yes, Attila the Hutt, the favourite brother of Jabba
It does not take the cooperation of the entire planet to develop advanced technology such as the warp drive. We only have to look at Nazi Germany during WWII and the space race during the cold war to see this. Often war and competition are what motivates the development of advanced technology. If planetary cooperation was what you wanted before first contact, then having addressed world hunger, stable but fair governments (democracy is the least stable, it's just far more fair than oligarchies), and sustainable economies would be the watermark for interaction.
If preventing primitive culture's from becoming potential enemies in the future, we would just annihilate primitive culture's that developed advanced technologies such as the warp drive. That's basically the philosophy of the aliens in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and that of Ming the Merciless.
I would pay money to see a scene similar to the following:
The Enterprise has picked up a passenger, basically a Superman expy. Refugee, time-traveller, dimensional slider, whatever. They come across a planet about to suffer an extinction level natural disaster. The Enterprise refuses to intervene, despite having the ability to stop the event, citing the Prime Directive.
Expy: Then this is where we part ways, Captain. Thank you for the hospitality.
They turn to leave.
Expy: My people have a saying. "Screw the rules, I'm doing what's right." This isn't a species about to die due to their own actions. This isn't the result of a war getting out of hand, or rampant famine and disease caused by those in power hoarding resources. This is a natural disaster, one you have the capacity to stop. If you refuse to do so...then it is no different than if you glassed the planet from orbit. If an entire race, an entire species, an entire planet dies because you refuse to help...then their blood is on your hands. You are guilty of the murder of an entire planet.
The prime directive is hubris. To believe that a species has a natural evolution that can end in extinction displays a belief in fate. Saying that you cannot intervene places you outside of being the hands of fate, essentially saying you are above fate. Also - mankind was interfered with - remember the original series episode where they find out that the Greek gods were aliens?
you should see Isaac Arthur's Video on this,he uses it in the context of the Fermi paradox and, You will not look at the prime directive at all the same ather watching it
I assume you mean "Smug Aliens"?
@@KaiserTom I though of 'uplifting'
(a) What the Vulcans did was irrelevant. The Federation didn't exist at that point, and there are plenty of species -- like the Klingons -- who clearly had no such compunctions.
(b) A major reason not to interfere with alien cultures is potential harm to those cultures. And to be entirely clear about what the risk is, it's not at all clear what might constitute "harm" to an alien culture. Changing the social norms of entire planets can be incredibly destabilizing, and can lead to rampant violence, poverty, ecological devastation, and even madness. If a society has spent centuries or millenia in a particular arrangement, they may not have the capacity to handle a new one -- and even with extensive study of that culture, it's nearly impossible to predict. So no matter how urgent the situation seems, and no matter how good the intentions, it can still basically fuck up entire civilizations.
(c) Another major reason not to interfere with them is potential harm to the Federation. If and when things go wrong, the Federation now has a responsibility to correct the balance as best they can -- which not only is potentially resource-intensive, but can also lead to further disasters, for the same reason the initial interference did. At that point the Federation has to decide whether their best option is to slink away into a corner and hope things turn out for the best, or use their unwieldy club hands to perform neurosurgery on an unanaesthetized patient. It's just a recipe for disaster.
(d) There is perhaps a case to be made for circumventing General Order 1 in the case of imminent extinction of a race -- merely to the extent of bringing a handful of them onboard to become refugees. In no other circumstance is it acceptable, and even then it is morally grey at best, because the survivors will be scarred for generations by the memory of what happened, by the severe culture shock, possibly by inbreeding in the long run -- and they may not have the cognitive capacity to integrate with Federation society. They may become outcasts, or a servant caste, in ways that are, again, completely unpredictable.
(e) EVEN in cases of secretly intervening to prevent that imminent extinction, there is still a moral greyness. Partly that is because of the risk of being discovered -- as they were both in the first Star Trek reboot film, and in the first episode of Discovery. Partly it's because you can rarely tell whether there might be a few scattered survivors, and what they might create from the ruins of their former society. Humanity was shaped by the hardships it faced, and intervening to make sure a species doesn't experience hardships could easily stunt them.
Great episode!
I’m really glad you pointed out that warp drive is an arbitrary milestone to initiate first contact. It’s actually the last possible moment to choose before a young civilization would have the power to rapidly reach other planets and directly meet new species, so it makes sense to introduce Starfleet not any later than that.
But it’s not the first time that a fledgling space-faring society would be able to identify foreign life. For example, we here on Earth are developing amazing telescopes that will be able to determine the atmospheric content of worlds on alien stars. We will know within just a few short years if other planets have methane and CO2 in their atmospheres, prime indicators of respiration! And, we are searching actively for signs of advanced life in other systems, such as Dyson spheres and swarms. We might soon see signs of civilizations. And, we’ve sent out probes that so far have left our solar system and entered the interstellar void of deep space, while still observing and communicating with us. In the years to come we will undoubtedly be in a position to get noticed, and to notice the activity of others if they are out there (or if their artifacts remain).
The point is, looooooong before we develop warp drive, or Alcubierre space-folding, or an Einstein-Rosen bridge (wormhole), we will have scanned the galaxy and most likely have seen what was going on out there.
So any Trek society building warp drive would have been by definition curious enough about the unknown that they would have already done all the things we’ve done,many so seen Earth, Romulus, Kronos, Vulcan, etc, and all of our space-faring activities, and realized that they were not alone, plus they would likely have seen the Enterprise approach their system, just as we saw oumuamua passing through our system last year.
The time to start studying an alien civilization is as soon as you discover them. The time to interact with them is a tricky ethical issue. I suggest it’s as soon as they realize that they are not alone, and have definitive proof. We might want to meet with their leaders discreetly to help them prepare to make an announcement to the planet. Or we might want to wait until the announcement is made, so as not to pick sides or fan the flames of mistrust.
But looooooong before warp drive.
If a real Star Trek series ever gets made, the bar will have been raised substantially high on what a knowledgeable sci-fi audience will consider reasonable, given how far we’ve progressed in the intervening decades.
Well, United States goberment should have the prime directive. Every time it "tries to help" just ends up bringing war, horror and suffering to every "country in need" it touches. It could prevent many disasters.
Might? MIGHT? WAS THIS EVER IN QUESTION?
I think the Primedirective is a good rule when placed on ship captains. However the federation council etz, should be able to decide otherwise after being informed on the situation if they think it's the right course of action to intervene and they are prepared to spend the resources required to manage the whole situation. You can't expect a captain to make such longstanding decisions in most cases. That would be something the greater society and political machine would have to decide upon. The Prime directive could also be seen as a good guideline for their discussions, but they should have more leeway than captains since they could provide more expertice and a longterm comittment and resources to the cause, unlike a captain that has to move on after a while. There us usually this impractical idea that the captain of the series always gets the last word and always makes all the decisions.
Your dialogue improvisations throughout your Trek videos are all individual slices of super deep-fried nerd comedy gold, my friend. Particularly your Picard and Crusher bits. I absolutely love those 👽🤣👾😂👽🤣👾😂👽
"Space, the final frontier. These are the voyagers of the star ship Enterprise. It's continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds (for amusement), to seek out new life and new civilizations (for entertainment), to boldly go where no man has gone before (but, not to help out or interfere in any way)."
The prime directive isn't about non interference. It just absolutely forbids the disclosure of the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence under any circumstances even if a species survival is at stake and can only be rescinded on the day that species moves a craft faster than light for the first time.
The actual definition of the Prime Directive is,
First warp flight and first contact day must be one.
This is what happens in star trek first contact movie e, and is the standard for almost every race.
They will search futilely for life, see nothing,hundreds of years later, convinced they can colonize the galaxy, they test a warp probe, and before the end of that day, a gigantic alien ship from something called the federation will appear in orbit and everything they thought was true about the universe changes.
YES! Thank you. After rewatching TNG I've come to pretty much despise the Prime Directive. An arrogant rule that people unwilling to interrogate a particular situation just sit back, do nothing, and go "yup, I followed our prime directive". Sure, there are totally times when it is prudent to not intervene. But the prime directive feels like a rule created by people who don't like owning up to the consequences of their actions, thus they take none.
Starfleet: Prime Directive!
Picard: Yeah, but the woman I've been in love with since she was married to my best friend's kid is about to die because he's a klutz and broke a tiny greenhouse in a garden
Boothby: How do I implement this law?
“That’s not cannon yet” heh
I was face-palming through most of Into Darkness (it was the movie that convinced me to never watch another JJ-verse ST film ever again) so maybe I have this wrong, but I thought the Prime Directive violation for which Kirk had the proverbial keys to the car taken from him was from the fact he parked the Enterprise under the sea so close to the Nibiruans that when he took off, they saw it.
We even saw how the Nibiruans had drawn the Enterprise into their red dirt, to show his cultural contamination.
And also that he lied about it in the tribunal.
Like anything in Trek, including Captain's personalities, the prime directive is there to serve a good greater than the Federation, the plot! :)
Where is the music at 3:56 from? I swear I've heard it before.
And in the Mirror Universe Enterprise episode, first contact ended with SHOTGUN TO THE FACE!
I think the prime directive should have more accurately been summarized as "do no harm."
Basing it on the Hippocratic Oath sounds better.
The possible problem that Picard mentioned in one episode interfering can case harm that generally falls on warring states
The possible problem that Picard mentioned in one episode interfering can case harm that generally falls on warring states
That would actually be a better directive. “Hmm...Letting the asteroid wipe these people out would really harm them, let’s just nudge it a little.”
No, because how do you predict whether your actions will not do more harm later on?
Jean Luc, that's a waffle.
Hillarious
what did he expect - French Toast?
I really hated that observational outpost.
Data: "Theres a scentient species that will die out. But we can do something about it without anyone ever noticing we where even there."
Picard: "No, its against the prime directive we cannot intervene, the risk is too high!"
Starfleet: "We build an observational outpost just out of sight of a primitive cultures village, poorly conceiled by a hologram that can break any minute."
Picard: "Cool and normal!"
My first thought was that they had already broken the Prime Directive by rescuing the freighter.
I'm sure I'm wrong as I'm only a casual Star Trek fan, but it seems like the purpose of the Federation Star Fleet in TOS was focused more on exploration and in TNG tended toward diplomatic missions within the larger federation.
I think TPD functions in TOS as the same kind of guiding principle of non-judgmental non-interference that anthropologists tend to use when collecting ethnographic data on a culture. I'd agree that during the TNG years, TPD as a hard and fast rule, wouldn't apply in most cases that involve diplomacy.
TL;DR Acronyms
There was more going where "no man has gone before" in TOS. I think by the time TNG came around there was more awareness that they'd created a universe where the story encompassed more than humans, since humans were just one species of the Federation. If you acknowledge that other species matter just as much as humans, then a human crew visiting a populated planet for the first time isn't such a big deal.
We (anthropologists, that is, I am one) do NOT have a non-interference rule. That would be both impossible (we don't have magic holoscreen duck blinds) and unethical (it has been a ground rule of human subject research since the 1980's that people have a right to consent to or refuse to be research subjects; this is only possible if they know who you are, what you are researching, and why). I don't know what the situation will be like in the Star Trek future, but if any anthropologist now attempted what they do on the show, they'd probably be sued by the victims.
Andrew Hayes Thanks for the point of view. What do anthropologists do to prevent bringing a group of people into contact with a group of people with no exposure to disease they may not have the capacity to resist? That happened a great deal a century ago. The reason the pilgrims settled in Plymouth was not happenstance. All but two of the native population had died from disease unintentionally passed on by a group of fishers passing through. There was a vacant village, and fields available to be plowed.
Jean-Luc, that's a waffle... (LOLOLOLOLOL)!
The "spirit" of the prime directive is just because we can do whatever we want doesn't mean we should. Not because we can do something doesnt mean we should.
The prime directive is basically the space equivalent of the US isolationist policies before the war. Those policies didn't work because you can't really be in the world and not part of whats going on. I think the same would hold true in space. Your presence is part of the equation, you can't just act like your outside everything that is going on because you fundamentally are not.