The mod operates by maintaining additional copies of hp, mp, and rp. So, there is a master copy of those resources used by the game, and "shadow" copies maintained by the mod. Initially, these are the same. Once the player uses or gains resources, we can check how much they changed by computing the difference between shadow and master copies. That is, the resource in game will change. But our shadow copy will still have previous value allowing us to determine exactly how much the value in game was changed. Since we can now know the difference, we can just amplify or reduce the gained/used resources and update our master and shadow copies accordingly. This way of executing the mod bypasses all the complexity of modifying existing game code which led to crashes.
As Wright says, this was a quick turnaround on something the wider community failed to realize for far too long. I take it that business with the RE guy and the stuff they were using helped? Or was this just the method you were talking about previously? At any rate, I'll be sure to tell Zesty to give her a gander. More for later when the full run begins/ends, obviously. Might not want to start that straight away. Give me a chance to perhaps give some ideas. Tough this week for me since I don't really know my own schedule for sure. NOTE: He at least got around to promoting your BH run (if you've not already seen). Maybe turn a head or so more in the right direction.
@@BigVEENope, the tech that RE guys used wasn't used here. This was about the idea to clone Mp and track how it changes compared to the in-game value. This master-shadow replica for tracking changes is a pretty standard programming technique. I just happened to see the pattern here and apply it. Some implications of this mode are: - We can scale the damage we receive - We can scale the amount of Rp we get from BoA slaps - Mp scaling is already shown here
@@kiraqueen0 >RE wasn't needed for this Hey, alright. Had it all well in hand, then. Wright says that browser isn't open web anymore. Inconvenient. Good it wasn't needed (yet). >implications Right, so our first focus was the most extreme case for MP. If we were to do RP, then what? Depends on the objective, I suppose. Is it about using RotT BoA uniques (especially Inferno) a bunch? Less so power? Maybe pull a stunt like Hydra Armor where the RP% is set to E along with the E perk of 25% slower drain rate? It is like God Armor, except instead of doubling your P%, it drops by half (of VH). BoA slaps still build RP normally, but BH can be used for direct strikes (probably only use RP for BoA for a theme) as if to build off your run using souls (hit count fueling Inferno as with Torment and maybe CR or even CWB). Activation cost would remain 10RP and need I think 25RP to trigger still. E doesn't change that. AotF being active will basically stop drain over time. Shame the unique moveset isn't a bit more interesting (like RotG). Would make it more appealing to do this (beyond making it the 'Fire Tornado' playthrough). EXP has no particular interesting qualities since we can't use them to fuel attacks or anything liket that. HP focus is less of a thing since there are no weapons or costumes generating them more (or at all). Athena would again be tops in this regard. Using modification for her E self means tenfold value, but to what end? You just do a bunch more trading? Perhaps let yourself using RotT more in that fashion (since you can recover more easily)? Again, inability to force the orbs is a big hiccup. It isn't like GoW1 with the RNG stuff. Nor is it like GoS with a costume able to make such orbs. Without a way to make a weapon (BoO, for instance) for HP orbs to drop (even if just smalls), it feels super pointless. Just encourages you to take more hits (not even like we get better DEF and more 'armor' to exploit like a tank). With EP%, collisions are the big thing. That's clear as crystal, but GK VH already covers that. No need for mods. P%? You could mod for E with God Armor (even DO). Sadly, Herc is NOT that guy (didn't get 5.0 in this field the way Athena did in her star attributes). If it were possible to make him so, that's a different story. As is, GA taken to E for P% would allow for essentially 4.0 (x4) on VH. Options like portions of 360 toss, light toss, normals, AQ, CR's explosive orb, etc. would all scale up. Just that collisions would be a bit meh (vanilla H tier). Recovery on orbs would be where VH probably should have them to begin with (half). So better than vanilla H, but worse than actually vanilla VH. What to do with such power? BH focus would be too direct. Brainless. BoO focus is similar (the best parts don't scale). That leaves SoD. This way altering explosions, Cursed Remain bombs, heavy ender and light ender can all feel strong. This for a SoD focused run that is NOT about PS (for a change). NOTE: With P% high and decent MP% (especially if that is ALSO flagged to E with the MP cost reduction **not as good as Athena, but still super usable**), you would be optimized for a ton more use of AQ (dull as that is) and CR (Suspended Congress for days). With the latter, it is lvl3's explosion that benefits. The former is just stronger in general (feel free to mash it out in most cases).
>Saint mod lives Oh? >description That to say our situation is as follows?: 75P% (base output nerfed by VH **slight de-emphasis from normals**) 750EP% (slight amp piled on to VH **not quite GK tier collisions**) 125HP% (slightly better HP recovery after nerf from VH) 1000MP% (modded value to have E Ath on VH **ignoring normal nerf**) 25%RP% (usual VH nerf) 150EXP% (slight amp over normal VH's nerf to 'upgrade' potential) I believe we were intended to start with MAX, so EXP isn't relevant. No expectation for extensions to factor as normal NG+ is also being used if I recall correctly. RP and P being as they are is to discourage favoring these things. No adjustment for the E perk to RP drain rate. Sub-weapons build no RP per hit. To get RP in this run, you will have to strike a RotT door, finger of Atlas, get orbs, get hit by sources that grant RP, do throws that grant it or switch to BoA (don't believe relics build it). Higher collisions shy of one-shot on TRAN KNEE are a welcome boon (unique situation to this attire having 75/37.5 as the full/half situation on this front for that mechanic). HP being slightly better just means a bit more forgiveness than typical for VH. 'Small' HP is 4, Medium (unique to it) is 10 and 'Big' HP is 20, so for you it is 5, 12.5 and 25. 2 and 8 for RP (down to 0.5 and 2). But the start of the show? Wright denotes 'small' MP orbs are 4 units and 'large' are 10 units. These are baseline. For you, tenfold. Thus, 40 and 100 respectively. Just one 'large' orb would fill the MIN bar. MP being as it is means the meager orbs from SoD DMG kills should prove invaluable. I don't see it in the current Google docs from Wright (and can't readily find where he gave me the data), but I believe the RNG range was 0-3 small orbs for SoD. So 0-120MP per thing killed that registers as a SoD kill (like having it out while throwing or killing with non-EH spells). Just rolling 1 should mean 40MP per foe, which is already incredible. This without six of them paying out three orbs for far more than your MAX bar can hold (no overage bonus in this game **not even with this set-up**). There are still times the normal (non-SoD) orb payout is better, mind you (as with OS kill on SEM during Theseus). Being E Ath with the perk, MP cost is reduced by 25%. Cheaper spells means more casts (our true focus **enabling more use of TB and EH in particular*) even before getting these returns. Not so much about CR (definitely not the P% scaling AQ). That at MAX also has a P% aspect (final orb explosion **though the knockback is EP%**). Learning tech like CWB on fused types and the overcharge (just need enough for WB to fire thus a final shot can be far more cost effective even without a fused target), at least. Much more freedom to TS groups away (clearing wide areas with a lingering attack that reaches far above/below). Even use LV as an invincible ranged launcher tool willynilly (though having SoD for that fabulous t1 is actually free and relatively safe, too). Still has that charming bugged interaction with statues (equating to insta-shatter).
What are we talking about here?: Typhon's Bane WB - 3MP (slightly cheaper) CWB - 18.75MP (good reduction, but gap closed means 'overcharge' value is lessened) LV - 18.75MP (paying for a launch with inv-f, spell priority, non-P%, wide hitbox and more range) TS - 37.5MP (still a little pricey, but definitely more spammable **orb returns fueling this masskiller like crazy**) Euryale's Head GS - 7.5MP p/s (it helps) GF - 18.75MP (much more reasonable to toss out without thought or multi-cast even **gloveslap less called for**) GB - 18.75MP (forgivable to use for raffs with certain set-ups) GR - 37.5MP (can now be abused further **suffice to say**) NOTE: Do recall that even a single small MP orb is worth 40 units (full return with interest for even TS **and GR**). Can't exactly get MP back from crush/ruin, so keep that in mind. Docs from Wright give the potency of these things away. >pinned comment Duly noted. Just for reference, when I did a non-modded Athena themed run, my set-up was as such for the NUR version (not so much PAIN+): -Grabs (circle and X option only; some grabs are questionable) Thus no neckbreak/torsorip (triangle) for quick kill utility nor 360 toss (for most enemies). -OH/alt.OH (air grabs not so much) Limited air OS grounds our focus just a bit. I'd say it is fine for Pests/Fodder, but not Major Grunts and above. As such, the smallest enemies. Don't make her look like she's a powerhouse hulking out, yeah? Even as is, you probably shouldn't be doing it even for OH/alt.OH, but we're giving ourselves leeway for this set-up case. Being able to get 360 toss off harpies is a boon worth some attention. -s1-s6 (Valor), t1 (not so much t3/Spirit or t0/Plume) Moving away from heavies beyond the starter. No explosive moves. Our bounce options become limited with BoA. No such issue with SoD (do whatever **unrestricted warfare**). Sadly, no way to uniquely give certain crystal moves P% immunity like SoD I(it is what it is **or those would become a focus**). Not stated, but should be clear BH is not in the running (at best Flicks/Legions). BoO would be basically only for lights, light special and (ranged) DR thematically. CC can help with the spear, not with her Blades. Being in her namesake gives them some excuse to be used, mind you. Could even upgrade them, but similar thinking is applied. The likes of air TR would be pushing it, but ground TR is a no-go. The rest of the block specials seem fine. Held light is pushing it a little and the shoulder seems out of character (rise would be fine). I'd say they are mostly for RP building, so just slap with lights should you want them. When you get to Zeus S3/S5, use MP if not pulling a fast one with SoD (as you did BH before). Super Plume all day? Not for this gal. -(air) s1-s3, t1 Anything goes, really. If you're in the sky, feel free to go wild. Aerial superiority (could even flex some long jumps aside from high jump antics as to reach better positioning in a fight). -Magic focus (TB primary, EH secondary) See: Above. -Blades (SoD and BoO are excusable but I'll stick to 'her' weapon) This was true of my NUR, but for you it really should be MP focus. When running low on recoverable MP, SoD. Only really working BoA for OH/alt.OH and slaps for RP. BoO is really pushing it (to say nothing of BH). -Relics are fine, Rage not so much As said. I'd de-emphasize Revenge just for being an explosive type powerhouse move. Maybe don't use that much. Return in general is permitted. Maybe try to parry more than block though tricking and whiffing/zoning are still the biggest priority as she is not the god of carnage/bloodshed who likes to wade into intimate range trading blows. That would be Ares. Wings are good on both fronts. Want to glide around and release Flicks? Go for it. Be as cute as you like. AotF? Exploit it whenever available, obviously. Trident? Not much we can do with it, sadly. 'Water' isn't so much an element to work here. RotT really ain't it. Definitely shouldn't use it much. I think the only place I'd want to see it is when you need to nerf a collision heading at the protectee or to limit DMG he'll take when you're not focused on him (he's getting bullied). This beyond forced cases. Unique BoA moves (even lights)? Probably no reason to do this. At best switch to RotT with enough hit count to not Flare, but to Inferno (since it is like using a spell in a sense and rarely gets shown **one-setup would be CWB at point blank on BK's S1 for 100+h then switching over to use this move just to do it**). -Ranged/cheap strats given priority (strategic is her priority, but distance is her secondary) If you've got sweet spots (semi, too), high ground, barriers, etc., you really should be using them. Likewise, working hazards. FF applies? There you go. Be the anti-BR. Not about style. It is about smarts. While efficiency and resource management with our current boons are indeed the biggest focus, one should also keep in mind environmental factors (and enemy mix). The SAINT is not the goddess of fair play. Peace is the objective. Peace in death. By whatever means, but with preference to a 'hands clean' approach (not so much looking to take licks **though even that can be calculated, so don't take it for ND/NH**).
All these things said (I'd have to give my old coverage and/or do an actual E Ath run to try and help you with hypothetical planning for possible approaches for a full run), let's see the video itself, eh? 0:05 For Whom the Bell Tolls, is it? 0:16 So begins this vision of an impossible future realized. >TS Not sure that looked like reduced casting cost. >no MP drops Got to have SoD out for that. 0:22 >WB as they fall spawn in Funny. 0:26 Definitely feels like full VH cost. 0:29 >toggle on Hmmm? Are we making the full switch now? 0:32 >another GR >reduced cost "It has begun!" - Happy Soul Sapper 0:36 >SoD out Lovely. Time to see some MP orb drop (JUICY edition). It is an EVEN FURTHER BEYOND tier of modding feat, but to take the RP building of BoA, but apply it to SoD strikes (except for MP) would be really something. That translates as follows: s1 - 0.25 s2 - 0.25 s3 - 0.25 s4 - 0.25/0.25/0.25 s5 - 1 t1 - 0.25 t2 - 0.25/0.25/0.25 t3 - 1 air s1 - 0.25 air t1 - 0.25/0.25 AS - 1 (per direct hit) / 0 (explosions) PS - 0 UR - 1 (direct hit) / 0 (explosion) NOTE: Flat bonus having nothing to do with MP%. Custom value would be even better to give some moves more reason to get focused as with s4 or t2 (if taken up to 0.5 per strike in a multi-hit) or even aerials (be unsafe for more replenishment sort of thing). Just a dream (as with s5, t3, AS and UR crystal aspects being non-P% or MAX gaining mini-PS on crystal side strikes and mini-altering on spear side strikes **game engine would no doubt struggle with the vfx**). 0:39 >takes some hits These will hurt as her. Part of why you want to space them out. 0:42 >PS Stronger collision on non-P% attack. CC for safety (and dps since it can be fired more rapidly with less recovery like on-landing PS into grounded). >no MP drops Rhodians, please. 0:45 >finally gets ONE orb Look at that VALUE. 0:53 >twofer >nearly back to full bar KEKAROO! 1:03 An example of spell use with SoD out. 'Slay all' while very difficult to interrupt (would negate cost, at least) and the chance to get orbs (only needing one to regain what was lost). >gets back one and has slightly more than he started with See? Just like that (as foretold in the Necronomicon). 1:25 Greater focus on spells, then. NOTE: A pity the unexisting bug of GoW1 can't be worked here. Would be having a field day with GR in particular. 2:00 While there IS argument to be had for UotG use with Athena, I just wonder if it wouldn't pull focus away from the spells too much in the Saint Mod. Definitely cool having 100pDMG per strike for multi-hits. That's for sure. Not everything applies, but most will. Perhaps a different run to toy with (another time). Zesty seems gunshy about dabbling in that meme for whatever reason. Could do a lot of RotT, CoC, etc. on things then switch it up to tools better suited to statue crushing. Cute gimmick in my book.
@@BigVEEJust as you said. I am happy to say that the Mp after gaining orbs and using magic printed the exact values you mentioned here. I was checking them in the console. I haven't touched anything other than Mp, so hp, rp are the same as regular VH Athena. >The upcoming run(s) I feel like I need a bit more time before I can go. I have to fully FEEL the run in me. That said, we will play as a caster and this will be SoD only. I was waiting for this VH spell casting experience for so long man. I can wait for you to finish Athena E and give some hints before I go. I appreciate your notes, they really condition the run in better directions.
@@kiraqueen0 I'll probably make another topic to that end (the new run). Easy enough to start with old copypasta to reference from the PAIN+ and NUR+ version of the old (unmodded) VH runs (though more focused on other things). Still, perhaps some value in referencing them. This before actually beginning the proper coverage with recommendations (myself doing E Ath whilst trying to focus on casting as you shall). Still need to find a download option for Wright's docs that lets me see the gifs properly. Maybe my phone? It is bootleg, but whatever works, right? So long as I can actually see what I'm looking at I can better help name the damn things. **checks** Less than ideal, but yes. That seems to be working. Combined with the tab for it, I should be in good enough shape there. I'm sure Wright will be pleased (that I can actually continue as intended). >exact values You would find much of this with Wright's docs as is. >only as we discussed Of course. SAINT mod may have started with Athena, but it doesn't have to end with her (and this particular run). Where it is concerned, however, it was entirely about getting the maximum use of TB and EH, so we needed the highest possible MP% and MP cost reduction while otherwise just a VH run with the costume. You've made the impossible possible there already. >more time You and me both. I need to know my schedule before I can really start such an undertaking as E Athena with attempts to plan a bit encounter to encounter. Tough account for RESOURCES, mind you. Not like we have on-hit MP building let alone on-hit MP orb generation. Infinite respawns foes ARE exploitable here, mind you. Even when they stop giving up EXP, you can keep working them. As noted, I would start with sharing (very outdated) copypasta of two ancient runs. After that would be the actual push to move through E Athena. I'll probably switch to helping with the Bestiary after sharing the copypastas in the new topic. Work on that while waiting to see what my new schedule shall be (if any changes are to be made at all **up in the air**). I presume we're aiming for MAX from the start, yeah? I'll have to make such a file in the first place. My PS3 edition is lacking on that front. Don't have the PS2 stuff anymore. I suppose this buys you some of the time you wanted to recover. >VH spell casting experience Yes, indeed. Obviously EH isn't going to be a big factor in boss encounters (nor sub-bosses) or even some mini-bosses. TB will have much more of a role to play in many of these things, but even it will get kek'd at times. Need to have things to kill to get MP back via SoD being out. Boss drops exist, but can't always count on that. Not enough adds to go around. You already know your boy Perseus won't care during S1. Built different. Can't be helped.
The mod operates by maintaining additional copies of hp, mp, and rp. So, there is a master copy of those resources used by the game, and "shadow" copies maintained by the mod. Initially, these are the same. Once the player uses or gains resources, we can check how much they changed by computing the difference between shadow and master copies. That is, the resource in game will change. But our shadow copy will still have previous value allowing us to determine exactly how much the value in game was changed.
Since we can now know the difference, we can just amplify or reduce the gained/used resources and update our master and shadow copies accordingly. This way of executing the mod bypasses all the complexity of modifying existing game code which led to crashes.
Very clever. Didn't expect to see this so soon. Amazing work.
As Wright says, this was a quick turnaround on something the wider community failed to realize for far too long. I take it that business with the RE guy and the stuff they were using helped? Or was this just the method you were talking about previously? At any rate, I'll be sure to tell Zesty to give her a gander. More for later when the full run begins/ends, obviously. Might not want to start that straight away. Give me a chance to perhaps give some ideas. Tough this week for me since I don't really know my own schedule for sure.
NOTE: He at least got around to promoting your BH run (if you've not already seen). Maybe turn a head or so more in the right direction.
@@MrWrightAppreciate it. This master-shadow replica idea made things really fast to develop.
@@BigVEENope, the tech that RE guys used wasn't used here. This was about the idea to clone Mp and track how it changes compared to the in-game value. This master-shadow replica for tracking changes is a pretty standard programming technique. I just happened to see the pattern here and apply it.
Some implications of this mode are:
- We can scale the damage we receive
- We can scale the amount of Rp we get from BoA slaps
- Mp scaling is already shown here
@@kiraqueen0 >RE wasn't needed for this
Hey, alright. Had it all well in hand, then. Wright says that browser isn't open web anymore. Inconvenient. Good it wasn't needed (yet).
>implications
Right, so our first focus was the most extreme case for MP. If we were to do RP, then what? Depends on the objective, I suppose. Is it about using RotT BoA uniques (especially Inferno) a bunch? Less so power? Maybe pull a stunt like Hydra Armor where the RP% is set to E along with the E perk of 25% slower drain rate? It is like God Armor, except instead of doubling your P%, it drops by half (of VH). BoA slaps still build RP normally, but BH can be used for direct strikes (probably only use RP for BoA for a theme) as if to build off your run using souls (hit count fueling Inferno as with Torment and maybe CR or even CWB). Activation cost would remain 10RP and need I think 25RP to trigger still. E doesn't change that. AotF being active will basically stop drain over time. Shame the unique moveset isn't a bit more interesting (like RotG). Would make it more appealing to do this (beyond making it the 'Fire Tornado' playthrough).
EXP has no particular interesting qualities since we can't use them to fuel attacks or anything liket that. HP focus is less of a thing since there are no weapons or costumes generating them more (or at all). Athena would again be tops in this regard. Using modification for her E self means tenfold value, but to what end? You just do a bunch more trading? Perhaps let yourself using RotT more in that fashion (since you can recover more easily)? Again, inability to force the orbs is a big hiccup. It isn't like GoW1 with the RNG stuff. Nor is it like GoS with a costume able to make such orbs. Without a way to make a weapon (BoO, for instance) for HP orbs to drop (even if just smalls), it feels super pointless. Just encourages you to take more hits (not even like we get better DEF and more 'armor' to exploit like a tank).
With EP%, collisions are the big thing. That's clear as crystal, but GK VH already covers that. No need for mods. P%? You could mod for E with God Armor (even DO). Sadly, Herc is NOT that guy (didn't get 5.0 in this field the way Athena did in her star attributes). If it were possible to make him so, that's a different story. As is, GA taken to E for P% would allow for essentially 4.0 (x4) on VH. Options like portions of 360 toss, light toss, normals, AQ, CR's explosive orb, etc. would all scale up. Just that collisions would be a bit meh (vanilla H tier). Recovery on orbs would be where VH probably should have them to begin with (half). So better than vanilla H, but worse than actually vanilla VH. What to do with such power? BH focus would be too direct. Brainless. BoO focus is similar (the best parts don't scale). That leaves SoD. This way altering explosions, Cursed Remain bombs, heavy ender and light ender can all feel strong. This for a SoD focused run that is NOT about PS (for a change).
NOTE: With P% high and decent MP% (especially if that is ALSO flagged to E with the MP cost reduction **not as good as Athena, but still super usable**), you would be optimized for a ton more use of AQ (dull as that is) and CR (Suspended Congress for days). With the latter, it is lvl3's explosion that benefits. The former is just stronger in general (feel free to mash it out in most cases).
This is sick. If you could mod the golden fleece to disable the auto parry I would love you forever
Appreciate the sentiment. That would be truly awesome. I am constantly researching new ways to mod the game. I will keep this in mind.
>Saint mod lives
Oh?
>description
That to say our situation is as follows?:
75P% (base output nerfed by VH **slight de-emphasis from normals**)
750EP% (slight amp piled on to VH **not quite GK tier collisions**)
125HP% (slightly better HP recovery after nerf from VH)
1000MP% (modded value to have E Ath on VH **ignoring normal nerf**)
25%RP% (usual VH nerf)
150EXP% (slight amp over normal VH's nerf to 'upgrade' potential)
I believe we were intended to start with MAX, so EXP isn't relevant. No expectation for extensions to factor as normal NG+ is also being used if I recall correctly. RP and P being as they are is to discourage favoring these things. No adjustment for the E perk to RP drain rate. Sub-weapons build no RP per hit. To get RP in this run, you will have to strike a RotT door, finger of Atlas, get orbs, get hit by sources that grant RP, do throws that grant it or switch to BoA (don't believe relics build it). Higher collisions shy of one-shot on TRAN KNEE are a welcome boon (unique situation to this attire having 75/37.5 as the full/half situation on this front for that mechanic). HP being slightly better just means a bit more forgiveness than typical for VH.
'Small' HP is 4, Medium (unique to it) is 10 and 'Big' HP is 20, so for you it is 5, 12.5 and 25. 2 and 8 for RP (down to 0.5 and 2). But the start of the show? Wright denotes 'small' MP orbs are 4 units and 'large' are 10 units. These are baseline. For you, tenfold. Thus, 40 and 100 respectively. Just one 'large' orb would fill the MIN bar. MP being as it is means the meager orbs from SoD DMG kills should prove invaluable. I don't see it in the current Google docs from Wright (and can't readily find where he gave me the data), but I believe the RNG range was 0-3 small orbs for SoD. So 0-120MP per thing killed that registers as a SoD kill (like having it out while throwing or killing with non-EH spells). Just rolling 1 should mean 40MP per foe, which is already incredible. This without six of them paying out three orbs for far more than your MAX bar can hold (no overage bonus in this game **not even with this set-up**). There are still times the normal (non-SoD) orb payout is better, mind you (as with OS kill on SEM during Theseus).
Being E Ath with the perk, MP cost is reduced by 25%. Cheaper spells means more casts (our true focus **enabling more use of TB and EH in particular*) even before getting these returns. Not so much about CR (definitely not the P% scaling AQ). That at MAX also has a P% aspect (final orb explosion **though the knockback is EP%**). Learning tech like CWB on fused types and the overcharge (just need enough for WB to fire thus a final shot can be far more cost effective even without a fused target), at least. Much more freedom to TS groups away (clearing wide areas with a lingering attack that reaches far above/below). Even use LV as an invincible ranged launcher tool willynilly (though having SoD for that fabulous t1 is actually free and relatively safe, too). Still has that charming bugged interaction with statues (equating to insta-shatter).
What are we talking about here?:
Typhon's Bane
WB - 3MP (slightly cheaper)
CWB - 18.75MP (good reduction, but gap closed means 'overcharge' value is lessened)
LV - 18.75MP (paying for a launch with inv-f, spell priority, non-P%, wide hitbox and more range)
TS - 37.5MP (still a little pricey, but definitely more spammable **orb returns fueling this masskiller like crazy**)
Euryale's Head
GS - 7.5MP p/s (it helps)
GF - 18.75MP (much more reasonable to toss out without thought or multi-cast even **gloveslap less called for**)
GB - 18.75MP (forgivable to use for raffs with certain set-ups)
GR - 37.5MP (can now be abused further **suffice to say**)
NOTE: Do recall that even a single small MP orb is worth 40 units (full return with interest for even TS **and GR**). Can't exactly get MP back from crush/ruin, so keep that in mind. Docs from Wright give the potency of these things away.
>pinned comment
Duly noted. Just for reference, when I did a non-modded Athena themed run, my set-up was as such for the NUR version (not so much PAIN+):
-Grabs (circle and X option only; some grabs are questionable)
Thus no neckbreak/torsorip (triangle) for quick kill utility nor 360 toss (for most enemies).
-OH/alt.OH (air grabs not so much)
Limited air OS grounds our focus just a bit. I'd say it is fine for Pests/Fodder, but not Major Grunts and above. As such, the smallest enemies. Don't make her look like she's a powerhouse hulking out, yeah? Even as is, you probably shouldn't be doing it even for OH/alt.OH, but we're giving ourselves leeway for this set-up case. Being able to get 360 toss off harpies is a boon worth some attention.
-s1-s6 (Valor), t1 (not so much t3/Spirit or t0/Plume)
Moving away from heavies beyond the starter. No explosive moves. Our bounce options become limited with BoA. No such issue with SoD (do whatever **unrestricted warfare**). Sadly, no way to uniquely give certain crystal moves P% immunity like SoD I(it is what it is **or those would become a focus**). Not stated, but should be clear BH is not in the running (at best Flicks/Legions). BoO would be basically only for lights, light special and (ranged) DR thematically. CC can help with the spear, not with her Blades. Being in her namesake gives them some excuse to be used, mind you. Could even upgrade them, but similar thinking is applied. The likes of air TR would be pushing it, but ground TR is a no-go. The rest of the block specials seem fine. Held light is pushing it a little and the shoulder seems out of character (rise would be fine). I'd say they are mostly for RP building, so just slap with lights should you want them. When you get to Zeus S3/S5, use MP if not pulling a fast one with SoD (as you did BH before). Super Plume all day? Not for this gal.
-(air) s1-s3, t1
Anything goes, really. If you're in the sky, feel free to go wild. Aerial superiority (could even flex some long jumps aside from high jump antics as to reach better positioning in a fight).
-Magic focus (TB primary, EH secondary)
See: Above.
-Blades (SoD and BoO are excusable but I'll stick to 'her' weapon)
This was true of my NUR, but for you it really should be MP focus. When running low on recoverable MP, SoD. Only really working BoA for OH/alt.OH and slaps for RP. BoO is really pushing it (to say nothing of BH).
-Relics are fine, Rage not so much
As said. I'd de-emphasize Revenge just for being an explosive type powerhouse move. Maybe don't use that much. Return in general is permitted. Maybe try to parry more than block though tricking and whiffing/zoning are still the biggest priority as she is not the god of carnage/bloodshed who likes to wade into intimate range trading blows. That would be Ares. Wings are good on both fronts. Want to glide around and release Flicks? Go for it. Be as cute as you like. AotF? Exploit it whenever available, obviously. Trident? Not much we can do with it, sadly. 'Water' isn't so much an element to work here. RotT really ain't it. Definitely shouldn't use it much. I think the only place I'd want to see it is when you need to nerf a collision heading at the protectee or to limit DMG he'll take when you're not focused on him (he's getting bullied). This beyond forced cases. Unique BoA moves (even lights)? Probably no reason to do this. At best switch to RotT with enough hit count to not Flare, but to Inferno (since it is like using a spell in a sense and rarely gets shown **one-setup would be CWB at point blank on BK's S1 for 100+h then switching over to use this move just to do it**).
-Ranged/cheap strats given priority (strategic is her priority, but distance is her secondary)
If you've got sweet spots (semi, too), high ground, barriers, etc., you really should be using them. Likewise, working hazards. FF applies? There you go. Be the anti-BR. Not about style. It is about smarts. While efficiency and resource management with our current boons are indeed the biggest focus, one should also keep in mind environmental factors (and enemy mix). The SAINT is not the goddess of fair play. Peace is the objective. Peace in death. By whatever means, but with preference to a 'hands clean' approach (not so much looking to take licks **though even that can be calculated, so don't take it for ND/NH**).
All these things said (I'd have to give my old coverage and/or do an actual E Ath run to try and help you with hypothetical planning for possible approaches for a full run), let's see the video itself, eh?
0:05 For Whom the Bell Tolls, is it?
0:16 So begins this vision of an impossible future realized.
>TS
Not sure that looked like reduced casting cost.
>no MP drops
Got to have SoD out for that.
0:22 >WB as they fall spawn in
Funny.
0:26 Definitely feels like full VH cost.
0:29 >toggle on
Hmmm? Are we making the full switch now?
0:32 >another GR
>reduced cost
"It has begun!" - Happy Soul Sapper
0:36 >SoD out
Lovely. Time to see some MP orb drop (JUICY edition).
It is an EVEN FURTHER BEYOND tier of modding feat, but to take the RP building of BoA, but apply it to SoD strikes (except for MP) would be really something. That translates as follows:
s1 - 0.25
s2 - 0.25
s3 - 0.25
s4 - 0.25/0.25/0.25
s5 - 1
t1 - 0.25
t2 - 0.25/0.25/0.25
t3 - 1
air s1 - 0.25
air t1 - 0.25/0.25
AS - 1 (per direct hit) / 0 (explosions)
PS - 0
UR - 1 (direct hit) / 0 (explosion)
NOTE: Flat bonus having nothing to do with MP%. Custom value would be even better to give some moves more reason to get focused as with s4 or t2 (if taken up to 0.5 per strike in a multi-hit) or even aerials (be unsafe for more replenishment sort of thing). Just a dream (as with s5, t3, AS and UR crystal aspects being non-P% or MAX gaining mini-PS on crystal side strikes and mini-altering on spear side strikes **game engine would no doubt struggle with the vfx**).
0:39 >takes some hits
These will hurt as her. Part of why you want to space them out.
0:42 >PS
Stronger collision on non-P% attack. CC for safety (and dps since it can be fired more rapidly with less recovery like on-landing PS into grounded).
>no MP drops
Rhodians, please.
0:45 >finally gets ONE orb
Look at that VALUE.
0:53 >twofer
>nearly back to full bar
KEKAROO!
1:03 An example of spell use with SoD out. 'Slay all' while very difficult to interrupt (would negate cost, at least) and the chance to get orbs (only needing one to regain what was lost).
>gets back one and has slightly more than he started with
See? Just like that (as foretold in the Necronomicon).
1:25 Greater focus on spells, then.
NOTE: A pity the unexisting bug of GoW1 can't be worked here. Would be having a field day with GR in particular.
2:00 While there IS argument to be had for UotG use with Athena, I just wonder if it wouldn't pull focus away from the spells too much in the Saint Mod. Definitely cool having 100pDMG per strike for multi-hits. That's for sure. Not everything applies, but most will. Perhaps a different run to toy with (another time). Zesty seems gunshy about dabbling in that meme for whatever reason. Could do a lot of RotT, CoC, etc. on things then switch it up to tools better suited to statue crushing. Cute gimmick in my book.
@@BigVEEJust as you said. I am happy to say that the Mp after gaining orbs and using magic printed the exact values you mentioned here. I was checking them in the console. I haven't touched anything other than Mp, so hp, rp are the same as regular VH Athena.
>The upcoming run(s)
I feel like I need a bit more time before I can go. I have to fully FEEL the run in me. That said, we will play as a caster and this will be SoD only. I was waiting for this VH spell casting experience for so long man. I can wait for you to finish Athena E and give some hints before I go. I appreciate your notes, they really condition the run in better directions.
@@kiraqueen0 I'll probably make another topic to that end (the new run). Easy enough to start with old copypasta to reference from the PAIN+ and NUR+ version of the old (unmodded) VH runs (though more focused on other things). Still, perhaps some value in referencing them. This before actually beginning the proper coverage with recommendations (myself doing E Ath whilst trying to focus on casting as you shall).
Still need to find a download option for Wright's docs that lets me see the gifs properly. Maybe my phone? It is bootleg, but whatever works, right? So long as I can actually see what I'm looking at I can better help name the damn things. **checks** Less than ideal, but yes. That seems to be working. Combined with the tab for it, I should be in good enough shape there. I'm sure Wright will be pleased (that I can actually continue as intended).
>exact values
You would find much of this with Wright's docs as is.
>only as we discussed
Of course. SAINT mod may have started with Athena, but it doesn't have to end with her (and this particular run). Where it is concerned, however, it was entirely about getting the maximum use of TB and EH, so we needed the highest possible MP% and MP cost reduction while otherwise just a VH run with the costume. You've made the impossible possible there already.
>more time
You and me both. I need to know my schedule before I can really start such an undertaking as E Athena with attempts to plan a bit encounter to encounter. Tough account for RESOURCES, mind you. Not like we have on-hit MP building let alone on-hit MP orb generation. Infinite respawns foes ARE exploitable here, mind you. Even when they stop giving up EXP, you can keep working them. As noted, I would start with sharing (very outdated) copypasta of two ancient runs. After that would be the actual push to move through E Athena.
I'll probably switch to helping with the Bestiary after sharing the copypastas in the new topic. Work on that while waiting to see what my new schedule shall be (if any changes are to be made at all **up in the air**). I presume we're aiming for MAX from the start, yeah? I'll have to make such a file in the first place. My PS3 edition is lacking on that front. Don't have the PS2 stuff anymore. I suppose this buys you some of the time you wanted to recover.
>VH spell casting experience
Yes, indeed. Obviously EH isn't going to be a big factor in boss encounters (nor sub-bosses) or even some mini-bosses. TB will have much more of a role to play in many of these things, but even it will get kek'd at times. Need to have things to kill to get MP back via SoD being out. Boss drops exist, but can't always count on that. Not enough adds to go around. You already know your boy Perseus won't care during S1. Built different. Can't be helped.