I am one of the refugees from the New Atheism movement who is now grounded in a parish, living in a family that has been healed (and is being healed) by Christ. Both of you played a large and pivotal role in this transformation of my life. Thank you both for your tireless efforts to wake the rest of us up to the way reality really functions. May your work continue to be blessed!
When a reformed pastor and an Orthodox icon carver meet akd create the blueprint for the ideal bible school session for adults high in openness...what a joy see you two there. Where there are two together in His name, you're in for a feast 🎉
19:19 - I have been called by God to stop following the news everyday like I have for the past 4 years. As you say, I too believe the solution is in one’s own life. I want to focus on being a better wife, mother, neighbor, church family member. I think I’m being pressed to focus on the relationships in my life instead of worrying about what’s going on in the world.
It seems to me that if it's the effect or fruit of something, then necessarily one of those things would be the Christian willingness to assert itself politically. (Though of course not limited by or contained by that)
@@MitchellHousehold I think that needn't be necessary, at least not explicitly so. Anyone explicitly running as Christian often also seems to miss the mark, as that quickly turns into a false religion. But I'm open to being wrong, perhaps it could help.
What if I applied that logic in other domains of authority and responsibility like being a father? I certainly intend my fatherhood to be an explicit assertion of Christian authority and this serves my children. This is for the betterment of my family but it does not mean Christianity is now being co opted towards some utilitarian end. I don't see why the same hierarchy isn't true politically. It can assert itself politically but be in its proper place, just as being Christian serves my family, it doesn't make that the point of Christianity, but still an active effort of work within the faith.
@@MitchellHousehold Here's why: coercion in the household is a completely different deal compared to coercion in politics. Similarly, I'm a communist at home: we share food, there's no property rights, and we're happy with that. Apply that nation wide and you get the worst tyranny you could possibly imagine. I need a better argument to be persuaded.
Jonathan pageau is a voice Crying in the Wilderness. He happens to have one of the Most honest and realistic view about the situation in culture today. Especially what he says in 34:30, about the Disciples been scandalised by Jesus's arrest and wanting to pull out their sword to fight. I think that is the mood of many Christians, as we see what is happening in culture.
Me before this video: Man I can't wait for the the PVK Jonathan Pageau interview to come out Me after watching this video: Man I can't wait for the Cosmic Skeptic Jonathan Pageau interview to come out
The backstory of the Mohamed Hijab interview was fascinating... I went back and skimmed through the video again because of the mention it got in this. Boy does the context Jonathan gave in this talk help you understand that conversation better!
There were two hints that gave it away, and maybe I noticed them because I was born and I still live in a Muslim nation. First, the architecture in the background and second, they weren't wearing shoes. Of course, I couldn't know about what JBP was supposed to do there, but I guessed he brought Jonathan with, perhaps just to feel safer. It's dangerous to walk into a place like that after all, like sheep among wolves. And they are wolves; not all of them, but some like MH, and I can read it on their faces. They aren't touched by Christ or the Holy Spirit at all. You bring a Cross to a place like that, because "with this shall you conquer".
Great conversation, really appreciate the engagement here, a few notes: Sure, hierarchies are disrupted, by rebellion, protesting, objection, opponent processing. The alternative is cooperation, submitting to something above both of you so that we can cooperate to building something bigger than either of us. I hear the emergence objection already, but that is inevitable, things will emerge. It is up to us to name those things (properly) and keep dominion over them. In other words, the problem of if we are living closer to heaven on earth or hell on earth is strictly a function of our behavior. If we all get along, we can cooperate to make things closer to heaven, if not, then we will always move closer to hell. Again, cooperation requires a submission to a common higher thing that happens to be towards the true, beautiful and good. In the age of Gnosis, the church has receded and the negotiation of church and emperor isn't happening at all, we are just splintering apart, due to this opponent processing, this protesting and constant critique everyone seems so found of, as if they are smart enough or authoritative enough to do so. Modernity is a flattening of the world through materialism. That is why it is best thought of as The Age of Gnosis, because it 'flattens' the world to 'knowledge' which is universal, it's objective, it's material and it perfectly reflects reality. Quite flat indeed, just the wrong moniker. I'm not sure I like this frame of 'secular images' but the point is clear enough. It's more like desalinized images, where you are rebelling against the sacred and pretending as though you've banished it entirely. This separates heaven and earth so it's harder to bring them together. That manifests as a binary between doing things for heaven or earth, rather than trying to bring them together. The frame doesn't collapse the world, story (through poetics) does this. The frame is also needed, so we are missing two things, one due to post modernism (the frame) the other due to a lack of acknowledgement and training (symbolic understanding through poetics) making Jonathan and Jordan the two most important folks to resolve the Meaning Crisis. This point about hierarchy not in the Roman authority way is super important. Politics is a flattening of the idea of hierarchy and few seem to understand this. Oh, so when it's your idea of God, you don't need to specify, but when it's Islam you are suddenly reticent? That is interesting indeed, Pastor Paul. You missed Jonathans excellent point right there. Oh, still struggling with the one and the many. Get out of that neoPlatonic BS frame that Vervaeke pushes. That context on the conversation with the Muslim really helped to frame things in a way that makes the conversation itself make more sense. Thanks! True, sing it, people do NOT know history, at all. Almost none. It's stunning how little they know, both in time span and in detail. John's take on AI is pretty out there. He's also technically wrong, but some of what he thinks might happen will, just not the way he thinks. This idea that AI will be inherently spiritual is so insane I cannot even. I'm not sure about the useful of John's tools...they are more likely to become cults than anything else. John's Silk Road idea is pretty strange, ultimately, I get why he's there, trying to create an intersection between East and West, but that isn't a new project and it's not necessary. East and West say the same thing using a slightly different emphasis, but it's very much the same. I like this point about how shallow AI is and how until you use it, you won't notice. So the outside looks shiny and new, but it's really just a cannibal and you won't know that at first. This is the danger of all emergence is good sorts of attitudes, it's easy to see the new shiny thing, say 'oh look, shiny thing!' and think it's ok, or good, or must be protected, but in reality, it's a cannibal and you didn't notice yet. That happens a lot. That is the danger in spreading seeds without cultivating them. AI is a Frankenstein fun house mirror reflecting back on you and making you think it's outside of you. AI has no body (it is parasitic upon yours), Daily Wire does. These two things are not the same. Materialism doesn't put a cloak on things, it flattens, no need to hide anything, it's all equal or below human agency. In one way, AI has been around a long time, what we are seeing is the democratization of AI more than anything else. It is this accelerationism, things are moving REALLY fast now, stunningly fast. Too fast, far too fast.
I think what I said is, "In 500 years when there is an autocephalous Orthodox Church of Texas and guacamole has replaced hummus as the Lenten dip of choice."
Minute 55 is a powerful moment about the absence of visual art in reformed circles, towards the end the daily wire question is answered with understanding, my respect grows for both of you, honorably opening your hearts. Holy Theotokos pray for us!
As a Hispanic, I would like to see more interest or knowledge of the Hispanic world. I think the "Black Legend" has done so much damage in this sense. It's an obviously so important piece in Christian history which always gets forgotten, especially among the anglos (and all their spheres of influence as well, which ,sadly, very often include Hispanic America). The Spanish Catholic Empire was very different from all the colonial empires in modern Europe; it would be wrong to call it "colonial", being much more like Rome (replicating Spain everywhere it went). Even if there was an incredible respect for the native americans (read the will of Queen Isabella about them, or the "Laws of Burgos" or the "Leyes Nuevas"), and the native Americans were allowed to keep their traditions as long as they weren't contrary to Catholicism (i.e.: human sacrifices), it is true that there were also many important sins, like wanting, in the case of the Iberian Penninsula (in the Americas paganism , of course, and necessarily, more or less coexisted with Catholicism), an absolutely purely Catholic kingdom, and to that purpose kicking out both Jews and Muslims (unless they agreed to become Christian). In practise, there is a lot in this part of history that can without a doubt be judged as forcing Christianity politically upon non-Christians. One does not need to be very intelligent to see that this is not very Christian... Since those Jews and Muslims for sure ended up hating Christianity much more, and the hope of their conversion was lost! It is even more saddening when one sees how those Sephardic Jews, many of which went to the Ottoman Empire, conserved their Spanish language for centuries, and wrote beautiful songs in it, which means they were Spanish, even if not Christian. I am mentioning this because it was probably, in any case, the most "succesful" attempt of a "religiously pure empire", which did last until Napoleon's time. On the other hand, Spain is probably the European country which has cared the least about "race". There were black conquistadores, like Juan Garrido, who often had slaves of their own; and such fascinating characters as the black Juan Latino, a son of slaves who was considered one of the best Latinists of 16th century Spain, about whom Lope de Vega wrote a poem and some other writer a play, and who married a Spanish noble white lady. But the biggest sign that race was usually (there are always exceptions) not a big deal, was that marriage between races was always promoted. It was certainly modern in many ways, but not at all modern in the Protestant-Capitalist-liberal-Free market sense (which basically comes from Calvinism, first in Holland and later in England). There was market, and even the first global market in it - a huge amount of trade between Mexico and China, for instance - but capitalism or free market were never, and would have never been allowed to become idols, as they very quickly did in both Holland, England, and all the anglo-world. The community (and this community had very much to do with the Catholic church) was always above the individual, and helping the poor (and not individually, but through the institution of the church, its orders, branches...) was seen as a duty. This is the reason, by the way, why there are so many "communist tendencies" in Hispanic countries. Catholicism is just so absolutely incompatible with liberalism (by the way, liberalism in the Hispanic world is right-wing, it means basically individualism, free market and anti-community), even if many people are confused on this point nowadays. So, if there is no true Catholic politics, and especially if people have become agnostic/atheist, common people with a culturally Catholic background (especially Hispanic) will naturally feel drawn to socialism/communism. So we could call that the heresy of Catholic countries (also Orthodox, obviously, as was seen in the USSR, and in Greece as well communism was once very big, but because the religious doctrine, in which the community is above the individual, is quite similar there, as far as I know). In Calvinist/Puritan countries, they feel drawn to the heresy of individualism, which is two-fold: on the one hand, the free market heresy, on the other , the heresy of wokism (obviously, all this "I can choose my gender" thing, or the "let's dress in the most ideosyncratic way possible", or the "new age", and all this, have nothing to do with communism, it is actually ultra-individualism, and it has 100 times more to do Ronald Reagan or Milton Freedman than with Marx or Fidel Castro).
I wish they would read your comment. But you have to realize most of these are Protestants and they are just woke progressive 1.0. They hate hate Catholicism. They need to convert. I was raised Calvinist and our whole identity was anti Catholicism
The internet is dominated by the American and English-speaking sphere. The Spanish Catholic colonization of the Americas had little to do with the British mostly Protestant colonization of Northern America. The Anglos basically exterminated every culture they encountered there. The Spanish brought Christianity and civilization while merging with those people's cultures creating new nations that became objectively much better than they were before the arrival of the Europeans. Certainly there were some black chapters in the Spanish conquista but most of it was very positive in the end for all involved, it was a non-racist and well-intended endeavour towards the natives. The Anglos were always racist towards all natives they colonized, segregated peoples and didn't merge with the pre-existing cultures.
I also think about why Jesus told them to bring their swords to gethsemane and then chastised them for using the sword. I really loved Jonathan’s observation here and I’ll be catalyzing this for a while- in my wrestling with how to deal with the evil and injustice everywhere- don’t draw your sword and don’t run- but for God’s sake stay the hell awake!
Does it relate to JBP's definition of "meek", which is "someone who knows the art of war, but chooses not to fight"? As in, Christ is telling them to be prepared for battle, but to choose the path of meekness?
If they didn't bring their swords, Jesus couldn't have taught them and displayed His power! Agent/arena.... no? Agent shapes the arena? Potter shapes the clay?
57:30 and before - I see Paul VanderKlay thinking. There IS some intellectual honesty there. There is hope for this man. There is. In my zeal to denounce the great Satan of Protestantism I have often missed seeing that before. Paul VanderKlay MAY be saved
Up to 28:25 Whilst the Church can define the state's commission, a particular temporary state that will end cannot define for the Church what the Church's commission is. I've edited that thought into my longer post regarding this video.
The bit about Christians and Jews becoming the atheists brings to mind when you first mentioned the Burned Over District. My first thought was what the people of that partnof New York later became, especially given the ideal of the District in its prime. They were zealous for God, then abandoned God but never abandoned their zeal.
It's also possible that that kind of ecstatic mass religion is from some source other than God. The earlier American Great Awakenings may not be so distinct from the current Woke Revolution than American low Church Protestants would care to believe.
It's also possible that that kind of ecstatic mass religion is from some source other than God. The earlier American Great Awakenings may not be so distinct from the current Woke Revolution than American low Church Protestants would care to believe.
I thought there was some sort of question mark about Shakespeare’s beliefs. Some have suggested he was a recusant catholic. Obviously it was a time when beliefs were in flux so maybe he had a mixture of beliefs
@@williambranch4283agreed. Because - Goethe. Goethe revered Shakespeare and had strong Humanist inclinations. But he denounced Christianity. If Shakespeare had been an obvious Christian, Goethe would have had something to say against his work 😂
@@Charlies_Little_Corner Per great literary critics, the point of great literature is to model ever greater human consciousness. More like Pageau perhaps than Vervaecke.
I felt like Paul did a lot more talking than normal in this one. Probably because he and Jonathan haven't spoken much recently. Still, a good conversation.
I think it was important for him to hear you reflect back what you were seeing so he has something to go with- also, when you both speak we get higher definition with more contrast and definition to the ideas
@@PaulVanderKlayPaul, when are you converting to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy? I am happy to have a conversation with you anytime to show the absolute necessity of this, the corruption must be removed FROM THE ROOT
I often think about my theological forebearers, who swam out into the river Tiber to rescue children being exposed to die for their imperfections, and who cared for the dying in the midst of the various plagues sweeping through Rome. No one then could have imagined the empire being utterly transformed by their actions, by their faithfulness. Remember, the gladiatorial games didn't actually end until 404 when Almachius, a monk, climbed into the arena and challenged the crowd, who stoned him to to death for interrupting their entertainment. So what do we do in these times? The same thing as ever. Be faithful, and obey. The harvest is rich, the grain groans under the weight of the kernels. May the Lord of the harvest send more workers.
I think we need a Universal History episode dealing with the Spainish Inquistion & Reconquista contra hersey, Islam, and Sephardic Judism. Should dovetail with the small Catholic contingent who seek canonization of Queen Ysabela I. Would give a good case study on the strengths and weaknesses of a homogenizing Emperor
@@monicamurphy1792 The rupture starts with Luther, but Calvin steps into the gap and invents wokeness. Look no further than the smashing of statues - it’s staring you in the face as soon as you admit the truth
@@catholicconvert2119 i think its remarkably unwise to apply the modern partisan dichotomy upon history. relative to the romans, the early Christians would have been seen as woke revolutionaries as well. The dichotomy constantly shifts.
@@kuhatsuifujimoto9621 This is not a loose historical analogy but an exact critique of the origins of an idea. You can trace it very easily- where does wokeness come from? MASSACHUSETTS, HARVARD, it comes from the PURITANS and the institution that JONATHAN EDWARDS was first president of
24 mins in, glad to hear this sharp distinction between the civilizational form of Christianity (which seems to me like the type of religious external Jesus harshly rebuked in Matt24 I think- because it had the form without the substance that produces anything of value and was a source of incredible injustice and abuse and was an insult to the name of God) - and the kingdom Jesus was bringing- where we clean the inside of the cup first - I can’t really say what I want to say in a TH-cam comment, but thanks- this was good
Completely incorrect. These two are not set against each other. Civilization being Christian does not make people somehow less personally Christian - it’s the opposite. A civilization becomes Christian when a great many people convert to the point it subverts the state.
1:00:00. Also the veil into the Holy of Holies in the Temple would have had the Zodiac on it…puts another layer of meaning into the account of the “rending of the veil” when Jesus dies in the cross
"we as human beings can never get the mix right" - we do get it right but it would only stay "right" in a static world/universe. It's like saying set your sails in a fixed position and we will reach the destination... Without fully understanding that the sails themselves need to constantly be adjusted to contend with the prevailing winds while being mindful of our current orientation and heading towards a desired goal or outcome.
The assertion that the West never truly civilized itself and replaced religious structures with secular ones. Let's break down the points step by step: 1. **Climbing the Ladder of Religion to Secularism then kicked it away:** - **Example:** The shift from religious authority to secular governance can be seen in historical events like the Enlightenment period, where reason and science gained prominence over purely religious dogma. 2. **Supernatural Monitoring to Surveillance:** - **Example:** From the concept of divine judgment in religious beliefs, societies transitioned to extensive surveillance systems like CCTV, courts, and police for social order. 3. **Modern Technology and Penitentiary:** - **Example:** The development of penitentiaries as a means of punishment reflects a shift from religious notions of sin and redemption to a more secular approach focused on rehabilitation and social control. 4. **Relative Prosperity and Lack of Existential Threat:** - **Example:** The post-World War II era brought relative stability and economic prosperity to the West, reducing immediate existential threats and fostering a sense of security. 5. **Secularism as "Diet Christianity":** - **Example:** Secular values such as human rights and equality can be seen as deriving from Christian moral principles, albeit with a secular interpretation. 6. **Secular Utopia and Disillusionment:** - **Example:** The anticipation of a utopian society without religious constraints led to the expectation of a perfect, harmonious world under secular governance. 7. **Current Challenges and Wars:** - **Example:** Ongoing geopolitical tensions and conflicts challenge the idea of a peaceful, utopian secular world, reflecting a more pragmatic and complex reality. 8. **Economic Challenges and Consumerism:** - **Example:** Economic pressures and the inability to sustain high levels of consumerism contribute to disillusionment, as material wealth alone does not fulfill the promise of utopia. 9. **Scapegoating and Mass Dissatisfaction:** - **Example:** In times of social unrest or economic hardship, societies may seek scapegoats to blame for unfulfilled promises, potentially leading to tensions and conflicts. 10. **Reflection on the Illusion of Utopia:** - **Example:** As people come to the realization that a perfect society may never materialize, there can be a collective sense of betrayal and the need to hold someone accountable for unmet expectations.
The Gospels' Peter story is about a man of law confronting a man of grace (Jesus). In the process he demonstrates the essentials that Paul described in his argument about law and sin. Peter had his own Romans 7 crash and burn when the cock crowed (that which I would do , I do not). Peter's epistles show a dramatic rise out of his futile efforts of justice toward a grace through faith realization. I can see why he came to have fond words for Paul.
While secularism aims to establish a neutral public sphere that does not favor any particular religious belief or doctrine, it is true that the secular framework itself can be seen as promoting its own grand narrative or worldview. This narrative often emphasizes rationality, human autonomy, and scientific inquiry without incorporating religious ways of thinking in the public sphere. Consequently, some argue that secularism may not achieve complete neutrality. Here's a step-by-step guide to further illustrate this perspective: 1. Implicit worldview of secularism: Secularism, as a philosophical and political stance, is built upon certain underlying assumptions and values. These assumptions often prioritize rationality, scientific inquiry, and human autonomy as the primary sources of knowledge and ethical principles. Example: In secular societies, public policies and decision-making are often grounded in reason, evidence, and the pursuit of individual freedoms and rights, without giving explicit consideration to religious ways of thinking or moral frameworks derived from religious traditions. 2. Limitations on religious expression in the public sphere: While secularism aims to accommodate diverse religious perspectives, it often imposes limitations on the expression of religious beliefs in the public domain. This can be seen as favoring a particular secular worldview over religious ways of thinking. Example: In some secular societies, restrictions may be placed on religious symbols or practices in public institutions, such as banning religious attire or prohibiting religious ceremonies in public spaces. These restrictions can be perceived as privileging secular expressions of belief over religious expressions. 3. Emphasis on rationality and exclusion of religious discourse: Secularism tends to prioritize rationality and scientific inquiry as the basis for public discourse and decision-making. Religious ways of thinking, rooted in faith and revelation, may not be accorded the same weight or consideration in public debates. Example: In public discussions on contentious issues, such as bioethics or social policies, arguments based on religious beliefs or religious moral frameworks may be dismissed or marginalized, as they do not conform to the prevailing secular emphasis on rationality and evidence-based reasoning. 4. Challenges to claims of neutrality: Critics argue that secularism, by favoring certain modes of thinking and excluding religious perspectives, cannot claim complete neutrality. They contend that the secular framework itself embodies a particular worldview that may marginalize or ignore religious ways of thinking. Example: Critics might argue that secularism, with its focus on reason and rationality, neglects the role of faith, spiritual experiences, and moral guidance derived from religious traditions. This exclusion can be seen as a bias against religious perspectives in the public sphere. 5. Call for inclusive dialogue and recognition: Some proponents of religious perspectives argue for a more inclusive public sphere that incorporates a range of worldviews, including religious ways of thinking. They advocate for a more robust engagement between religious and secular perspectives in shaping public policies and societal norms. Example: Proponents might call for a recognition of the diversity of religious beliefs and a greater openness to dialogue between religious and secular worldviews. They argue that an inclusive public sphere should not privilege one particular narrative or worldview, but instead foster respectful engagement and mutual understanding. It's important to note that different interpretations and implementations of secularism exist, and debates continue regarding its boundaries and principles. The claim of neutrality is a subject of ongoing discussion and critique, and there are efforts to develop more inclusive approaches that accommodate diverse perspectives, including religious ways of thinking, in the public sphere. Certainly! Here's a step-by-step guide to further illustrate how secularism, while claiming neutrality, may favor a particular worldview and exclude religious ways of thinking in the public sphere: 1. Assumptions and values of secularism: Secularism is built upon assumptions and values that prioritize rationality, scientific inquiry, and human autonomy as the primary sources of knowledge and ethical principles in the public sphere. Example: In public debates on ethical issues such as assisted reproductive technologies or end-of-life decisions, arguments based on scientific evidence and individual autonomy may be given more weight, while religious perspectives that emphasize divine commandments or moral traditions may be marginalized. 2. Limitations on religious expression: While secularism aims to accommodate religious perspectives, there can be restrictions on religious expression in the public sphere, leading to a potential privileging of secular perspectives over religious ones. Example: In some secular societies, limitations may be imposed on the display of religious symbols or the practice of certain religious rituals in public spaces, such as government offices or schools. This exclusion of religious expression can be seen as favoring a particular secular worldview. 3. Emphasis on reason and exclusion of religious discourse: Secularism often places a strong emphasis on reason, evidence, and scientific inquiry as the basis for public discourse and decision-making. Religious ways of thinking, rooted in faith and revelation, may not be given the same level of consideration or recognition. Example: In public debates on issues such as climate change or education policy, arguments based on scientific evidence and empirical data may take precedence, while religious perspectives that draw on faith or spiritual beliefs may be dismissed as lacking rationality or objectivity. 4. Marginalization of religious moral frameworks: Secularism tends to marginalize or ignore religious moral frameworks in the public sphere, as they may not align with the prevailing emphasis on individual autonomy, rights, and utilitarian ethical principles. Example: In discussions on issues such as same-sex marriage or abortion, secular arguments based on individual rights and personal autonomy may take center stage, while religious perspectives that hold differing moral positions based on religious teachings may be disregarded or dismissed as non-rational or outdated. 5. Critiques of neutrality claim: Critics argue that secularism, by privileging certain modes of thinking and excluding religious perspectives, cannot claim complete neutrality in the public sphere. They contend that the secular framework itself embodies a particular worldview that may marginalize or ignore religious ways of thinking. Example: Critics might point out that the secular emphasis on reason and rationality neglects the role of faith, spiritual experiences, and moral guidance derived from religious traditions. They argue that true neutrality should accommodate and engage with a diversity of worldviews, including religious perspectives. 6. Calls for inclusive dialogue and recognition: Some proponents of religious perspectives advocate for a more inclusive public sphere that incorporates diverse worldviews, including religious ways of thinking. They call for a respectful engagement between religious and secular perspectives in shaping public policies and societal norms. Example: Proponents might emphasize the importance of recognizing the diversity of religious beliefs and values in public debates and decision-making processes. They argue that an inclusive public sphere should allow for robust dialogue and mutual understanding between different worldviews, including religious and secular perspectives. It's important to note that interpretations and implementations of secularism can vary across different societies.
Hey Mr. Vanderklay, one reference you can check out is the Encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI "Deus Caritas Est." Specifically part 2, number 28. It's super relevant.
Hey Paul, Great convos with Jonathan! Around 58 minutes in JP is talking about the loss of theology in visual arts in the Protestant tradition. While I understand what he was getting at, he is forgetting some of his art history. The northern European painters had strong theological presentations in many media(Durer, Van Eyck, Rembrandt, etc.) He is correct that things did move toward more secular images, but even in still life's and portraits the artist who often place elements of ' memento mori'(remember your death) in the works. These might include decaying flowers or fruit in a still life or a mirror with a spectre of death in a portrait. The point is that the art was no longer iconography, but there were often Christian and theological messages woven into them, particularly in the Northern Renaissance and later Baroque periods.
But Christian and theological messages being in a painting is still fundamentally a moralistic and didactic approach to art, where art is supplementary to studying the Bible, it provides some more easily digestible information. What Jonathan is getting at, at least what I understand it to be, is about art as an imitation of incarnation. Art as word becoming flesh, as for instance holy icons taking part in sacraments and liturgy, similarly to how baptismal waters are an ordinary way to baptise or how Moses rod was used to split the sea.
I took it as a comment on modern day Protestantism. And more specifically the evangelical strains of it. I grew up in those spaces and I will say there is a great lack of beauty in them.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmen- there’s like a weird Puritanism in some of the evangelical stuff. As a kid, some of our church friends got into a church that said that even singing and dancing was too close to worshipping the devil. Sounds like projection by the pastor to me lol.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmenthis is it, there aren't many prominent liturgical artists among the Protestant traditions; even if Anglicans and Lutherans still have and use art as the Roman Catholics do.
@PaulVanderKlay I really hope he accepts your offer, he's a super private person haha and he's super busy in the cold right now but hopefully he can get back on twitter or release his new book and maybe start doing some interviews again!
General question... why does no one in TLC ever even reference "The Chosen" series? Not looking for a fight.... just some clue as to why it's been ignored.
The arc of the covenant - straight image. Indiana jones/star wars were more religious in symbolic meaning than the Protestant church. Lucas Spielberg picked up where Tolkien and Lewis left off, with out Christ tho
Lucas had his own twist on Christ. His Chosen One was tempted and failed. Yet his son, Luke, redeemed him through sacrifice and Anakin’s final act was to save his son out of love, sacrificing his own life for his son’s. I mean that’s what Jesus’s story is about. It’s about how sacrifice is a rebirth. It’s all there. It’s why ppl love Star Wars even if they don’t know why.
I’ve been enjoying the little corner videos for some time now, and accept the encouragement to be more than a consumer. So, here are a couple of comments: “We as human beings can never get the mix right”. Perhaps this is God‘s intention; that reality is not best described as a pendulum, but as cycles. That would explain the transitional period that we’re in, where the works of men are coming to an end - that mankind (including the “church”) might experience our ineptitude at solving civilizational problems. Perhaps 2Corinthians 3:18 applies to groups of all sizes as much as it does to the individuals in those groups. And perhaps it does not only apply to believers. “We are in a returning moment.” I like the hand motion of a cycle, but I would propose that God‘s intention, and the execution of His plan in the age is not about returning, but moving to the next level of maturity. The image of a spiral staircase seems to be popular. The silhouette of a mountain with plateaus at various levels is also a helpful image. BTW: The same is true (ie., maturing) in reading the Gospels over and over - we grow by and in them. Have a strong day in the Lord, Rob
The contrasting perspectives on Christianity, secularism and Islam regarding the integration of values, ethics, and various aspects of life: **Secularism as "Diet Christianity" and Politics as Ethic Writ Large:** 1. **Secularism as "Diet Christianity"**: - **Step 1**: Some critics characterize secularism as a diluted or reduced form of Christianity, suggesting that it retains certain moral and ethical aspects while discarding the religious foundation. - **Example**: Secular ethics may draw on values traditionally associated with Christianity, such as concepts of justice and human rights, while divorcing them from their religious origins. 2. **Politics as Ethic Writ Large**: - **Step 1**: The statement implies that, in a secular context, political decisions are often guided by ethical considerations, serving as a broader expression of societal values. - **Example**: Secular democracies often frame laws and policies based on ethical principles such as equality, freedom, and justice, even without explicit religious grounding. **Islam as an Integrated and Holistic Approach:** 1. **Integrated Approach to Life**: - **Step 1**: Islam is described as offering an integrated and holistic approach to life, implying that religious principles permeate all aspects of an individual's existence. - **Example**: Islamic teachings guide not only religious practices but also daily activities, interpersonal relationships, and business transactions. 2. **Absence of Sundering Facts from Values**: - **Step 1**: The statement suggests that in Islam, there is no separation between factual knowledge and value-based judgments. - **Example**: Islamic teachings encourage the pursuit of knowledge (facts) while emphasizing the ethical and moral dimensions of that knowledge. 3. **Unity of Scientific Explanation and Purpose**: - **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no sundering of scientific explanation from purpose, indicating a seamless integration of understanding the natural world and recognizing divine purpose. - **Example**: Islamic scholars historically made significant contributions to various scientific fields, seeing scientific inquiry as a means of better understanding Allah's creation. 4. **Unity of Morality and Law**: - **Step 1**: The statement suggests that Islamic morality and legal principles are intricately connected, with ethical considerations guiding legal frameworks. - **Example**: Sharia, Islamic law, incorporates moral and ethical principles derived from the Quran and Sunnah into legal rulings. 5. **Unity of Theoretical Inquiries and Practical Ways of Living**: - **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no sundering of theoretical inquiries from practical ways of living, emphasizing the practical application of theoretical knowledge. - **Example**: Islamic theology and philosophy provide a framework for understanding existence, and this understanding is expected to inform the practical aspects of a Muslim's life. 6. **No Sundering of Politics from Ethics**: - **Step 1**: The statement asserts that Islam does not separate politics from ethics, indicating that ethical considerations are integral to political decision-making. - **Example**: Islamic governance principles incorporate ethical values, and leaders are expected to uphold justice, compassion, and accountability. 7. **No Sundering of Sacred from Profane**: - **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no division between the sacred and the profane, suggesting that all aspects of life can be infused with religious significance. - **Example**: Islamic rituals, prayers, and ethical guidelines are not confined to specific sacred spaces but are woven into the fabric of daily life. In summary, the statements highlight a contrast between the perceived secular approach, where ethics may be detached from religious foundations, and the Islamic approach, which emphasizes an integrated, holistic worldview where religious principles inform every aspect of life.
This is exactly what I spend so much time trying to explain to people- Muslims often are confused by the western separation of religion and life- and vice versa, Americans are perplexed by the inextricability of religion from life in Islam. However, practically speaking, most Muslims have religion bound in their language and customs and law, but they also have the issue of being “white washed tombs” that Jesus rebuked in the religious elite. There’s a danger in relying institutionalizing and “culturalizing” that which requires whole person devotion to be marked as anything amounting to faith acceptable to God. Is it better to have the civilitational aspect? Maybe, but Jesus said the prostitutes and tax collectors and those who had no religious cover were entering the kingdom ahead of the religious ones.
Not sure if David Bentley Hart essay "Christ and Nothing" was mentioned in these comments, but if you were the one who posted about that essay, thank you. I would love to find video or conversations about this essay.
Great get together of the 2 sides of the original little corner of the internet, now the walls of the corner have expanded tremendously but good to know the corner is still there.
The Evolution of Secularism let's explore the development of secularism through different historical transformations, considering its roots in Christian history and subsequent evolutions: **1. Monastic Origins:** - **Beginning of Secularism:** The term "secular" has its roots in Christian monasticism. When a monk chose to leave the monastic life and integrate into the everyday life of the community (the commons), this transition was considered secular. - **Example:** A monk deciding to leave the monastery and engage in the secular world, participating in civic life or pursuing non-religious activities. **2. Henry VIII and Dissolution of Monasteries:** - **Desanctification of Church Properties:** During the reign of Henry VIII in the 16th century, England underwent significant religious changes. Henry dissolved monasteries and confiscated their properties, putting them into the secular market. This rendered these properties desanctified and marked a transformation of secularism. - **Example:** Former monastery lands being repurposed for secular uses, such as agricultural or commercial ventures. **3. Secularism in the Enlightenment:** - **Intellectual Movement:** In the Enlightenment, secularism took on a more philosophical and intellectual character. The emphasis shifted towards reason, science, and the separation of church and state. - **Example:** Enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire and Rousseau advocating for a secular state that prioritizes reason and individual liberties over religious authority. **4. Secularism as Separation of Church and State:** - **Modern Definition Emerges:** In the 19th and 20th centuries, secularism evolved to emphasize the separation of church and state. This transformation aimed to create societies where religious beliefs do not dictate political decisions, laws, or public policies. - **Example:** Constitutional provisions in secular states explicitly separating religious institutions from governmental affairs (e.g., the First Amendment in the United States). **5. Secularism in the 21st Century:** - **Pluralistic and Inclusive:** Modern secularism often promotes a pluralistic and inclusive society where individuals of various religious beliefs and non-believers coexist. It seeks to create a neutral public space where diverse perspectives are respected. - **Example:** Laws and policies that ensure equal treatment for people of all religious beliefs and those who identify as secular or non-religious. **6. Critiques of Secularism:** - **Challenges and Debates:** While secularism has evolved to promote religious freedom and inclusivity, it faces critiques. Some argue that it can inadvertently marginalize certain religious or cultural groups. - **Example:** Debates surrounding laws on the display of religious symbols in public spaces, such as schools or government buildings. **7. Global Secularism Variations:** - **Diverse Manifestations:** Secularism takes different forms in various countries, influenced by historical, cultural, and political contexts. Some societies have strong secular traditions, while others navigate a delicate balance between secularism and religious influence. - **Example:** Contrasts between secularism in Western democracies and variations in countries where religion plays a more central role in governance. In summary, secularism's development has been marked by historical transformations, from its monastic origins to its role in the Enlightenment and its contemporary emphasis on the separation of church and state. This evolution reflects changing attitudes towards the role of religion in public life and the ongoing quest for a society that respects diverse beliefs and perspectives.
22:00 someone please annunciate what is the pattern? The seed, the rebirth and resurrection but make me see the pattern as it corresponds to the cultural war. I can’t see it yet.
Am up to 13:30. Legislation refers to an inherent identity in reference to which there is legislation; so the attempt to legislate is theistic; so the individual legislator (voter) who wants to logically steward will always be expressing some form of theocracy; the biblical command echoed in the New Testament "honour everyone" evidently commands the consideration of everyone's responsibility and eventual vote, a consideration that bio-logically respects the human responsibility to learn to bio-logically steward an ecosystem that includes their bio-logical body; the human digestive system means we have a right to nourishment, the human immune system means we have a right to an available vaccine; the human reproductive system means we have an eventual right to mutually marry a member of the opposite sex in terms of reproductive organs; a voted for parliamentary debating chamber is a place where learning and voting can take place so Christian theocracy establishes democratic bio-logical projects that function as countries as part of Christianity's international cosmopolitanism; it also makes sense to have a constitution that admits that whilst the Church can define the state's commission, a particular temporary state that will end cannot define for the Church what the Church's commission is; in terms of what is allowed and what is not allowed, that can be voted on; religion like anything else that can be tolerated in a community can be voted on and in a way that accepts that people ought to work things out as stewards - but that will be subject to reasonable guards if a person expresses dangerous thoughts; whilst we can vote, the individual is not to enact the illogical wishes of any illogical, anti-human policy of any majority; a monarch, as a form of juror, a referee who decides if the proposed law is just in given circumstances could represent the authority of the individual against a corrupt majority; and the individual has the authority as a steward about whether or not they want to trust any person with any particular responsibility. As far as I can tell, whilst Jesus forbids murderous intent and abolished the death penalty around 2000 years ago, He affirms the protective use of weapons of defense and self-defense. Were a murderous attacker to suffer a fatal blow as a consequence of defensive action then evidently that would be God (who defends the extent of human rights) not the mere human defender of human rights taking vengeance; we are to strive to create a space of repentance and reconciliation on the earth through a respect of human responsibility; it is God alone who decides the extent of any particular responsibility. [Up to 20:30] Jesus' death was a uniquely qualified sacrifice; we are to encourage everyone to be living sacrifices of bio-logical service. Up to 26:56: The Church is to go out and command that all including the political leaders repent under Christ's Kingship and if they don't we are to tie up the murderous leaders and replace them as office bearers.
1:01:00 Protestantism thinks it can have the universal without the particular. We are all priests! But when we ask what it looks like in the day to day, we have no priests to think of. If all days are holy, no days are holy kind of thing.
Yup! Protestantism is a crime, a deep stain, a root of rebellion against God. The culture cannot be healed until the Protestant admits their sin, and confesses and converts
Kyros: the Othordox church isn’t everywhere, so people in smaller contexts have no option than to just exist until the Divine Liturgy reaches every space? There must be some avenue of bringing deeper meaning to Christian space with out it just being simply a mutant, but rather an organism growing and maturing
Is Peter's delay in building the Church on Mount Tabor to building it at the Empire's capital like God's rejection of David's attempt to build the Temple? What of David as a man of war and Solomon as a man of peace and/or wisdom?
1:33:52 at the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you're interested in a creative documentary about AGI, God, Revelation etc. interspersed with film references from Metropolis to Terminator, the "What is a Human?" series, esp. Chapters 3 and 7-9 might pique your interest. Even more so, since I combine the ideas of Pageau, Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke with it.
During christian millenium, the state was restrained and distinct from the church. Rome combined the two and that was and is a serious error. Ultimately that combined power went to absolute monarchs and then to Man via democracy.
Symphonia died in the East as well, for the same reasons: prosperity led to corruption at every level. After the Turks took over Constantinople, the ruling Sultan Mehmed II, who led the capture of the city, had a recurring dream about a hand with five fingers. Upset that neither he nor any other Muslim could decipher its meaning, the Sultan sent out his men to find the monk Gennadios, who was renowned for his insight into things of a spiritual nature. Once they found him, the men asked monk Gennadios to interpret the Sultan’s dream. Gennadios agreed but said he needed to fast and pray for several days before he would be able to interpret it. After fasting and praying, he was informed by God what the dream meant. The hand with five fingers the Sultan continually saw in his dream represented five faithful Christians-the five faithful Christians Constantinople did not have living in it at the time of its collapse. “If there had been only five faithful Christians in Constantinople, God would not have allowed it to be captured by you,” monk Gennadios explained to the Sultan.
I can understand why Dr. Jordan Peterson encourages everyone to hear you. The things you say are in another level. It is really hard for us to connect things you mention. I think maybe you are one of the few real thinkers I’ve heard. We all replicate what we have heard. You really create new ideas.
To understand what happened at the mosque in London, ask yourself how keen Jordan’s bosses at DW would be for a fruitful dialog between Christians & Muslims to occur.
It's extremely difficult or next to impossible to have a dialogue between very devout Muslims and Christians. Read the Quran and Hadiths. A verse from the Quran 98:6: إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ وَٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ فِى نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَـٰلِدِينَ فِيهَآ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ ٱلْبَرِيَّةِ ٦ translated: Indeed, those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of ˹all˺ beings. I believe that a devout Muslim believes that the Trinity means that Christians are polytheists as an example. And if you believe in Jesus Christ as being God, you commit the sin of sherk, one of the worst sins that can be committed in Islam. Ultimately, our goal should be to reach Muslims for God's kingdom. Ayann Hirsi Ali has converted to Christianity after leaving Islam's torturous life into atheism which was also not helping and now to Christianity. What is you problem with the DW?
To what extent can orthodox westerners incorporate the religious culture of Catholicism and Western Europe? I just have this image in my head of westerners sitting around listening to eastern chanting and doing away with a rich religious history. A bit like those who convert to Islam and change their name and start talking in Arabic terms lol. It’s important to maintain a degree of continuity I think
In America there are Orthodox Western Rite parishes, though not many. It will happen, but it will take time. I discussed this issue with my Priest and he blessed me to use some Western prayers in my personal prayer life. He was also intending to use Gregorian chant in the Divine Liturgy, but unfortunately he moved to a parish in a different country. The current Priest is not as open to such things, but he is a temporary Priest until we find a permanent one, so hopefully the permanent Priest will be more open to it.
I have a question that I hope can be answered that is somewhat unrelated to this specific video but related to Christianity in general. I rarely hear Jonathan discuss the pivotal role of women in Christianity like Mother Mary, Magdalene, or Martha for example. What does orthodoxy have to say about these important women and their significance in the Bible? I can’t help but get the feeling that there is a reluctance or even a sort of distaste for this topic especially from figures like Jordan Peterson. I think Peterson even said at one point that the feminine is something that is chaotic and needs to be civilized by reason, which in a way I agree with however I’d like to believe man and women - Adam and Eve are of equal importance and in equal partnership within our world. I’m picking up on a fear or demonization and a resulting demotion of the female energy from the Christian community. I’d love to hear a response on this.
Home is a great place for ministry and disciple-making! The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace!
That formula you gave for how Christ was risen, is risen, and will rise is very similar to how Catholics (and probably orthodox) formulate the concept of our salvation. We were saved, are being saved, and hope to be saved. I know you don’t generally speak on doctrinal issues, and especially not in a personal way, but I’m curious how your own beliefs on doctrine have changed in light of your interactions with JP among others and the ruminations of the last few years. It may not be your thing, but I’ll state my interest all the same :)
I am one of the refugees from the New Atheism movement who is now grounded in a parish, living in a family that has been healed (and is being healed) by Christ. Both of you played a large and pivotal role in this transformation of my life. Thank you both for your tireless efforts to wake the rest of us up to the way reality really functions. May your work continue to be blessed!
What an exciting time! I too was an atheist that was turned around. It’s so cool to see so many coming to Christ. God bless to you and your family.
Paul, you mentioned 'what you want to accomplish'. Which is?
Are you a Catholic Jeremy
That’s awesome
God bless you
When a reformed pastor and an Orthodox icon carver meet akd create the blueprint for the ideal bible school session for adults high in openness...what a joy see you two there. Where there are two together in His name, you're in for a feast 🎉
19:19 - I have been called by God to stop following the news everyday like I have for the past 4 years. As you say, I too believe the solution is in one’s own life. I want to focus on being a better wife, mother, neighbor, church family member. I think I’m being pressed to focus on the relationships in my life instead of worrying about what’s going on in the world.
'The Christian nation is the fruit of something, not the cause'. Beautiful insight and so important to take with us in daily life.
It seems to me that if it's the effect or fruit of something, then necessarily one of those things would be the Christian willingness to assert itself politically. (Though of course not limited by or contained by that)
@@MitchellHousehold I think that needn't be necessary, at least not explicitly so. Anyone explicitly running as Christian often also seems to miss the mark, as that quickly turns into a false religion. But I'm open to being wrong, perhaps it could help.
@@MitchellHouseholdOr as Jonathan would say: 'If you try to weaponize Christianity to any other goal it will always be perverted'
What if I applied that logic in other domains of authority and responsibility like being a father? I certainly intend my fatherhood to be an explicit assertion of Christian authority and this serves my children. This is for the betterment of my family but it does not mean Christianity is now being co opted towards some utilitarian end. I don't see why the same hierarchy isn't true politically. It can assert itself politically but be in its proper place, just as being Christian serves my family, it doesn't make that the point of Christianity, but still an active effort of work within the faith.
@@MitchellHousehold Here's why: coercion in the household is a completely different deal compared to coercion in politics. Similarly, I'm a communist at home: we share food, there's no property rights, and we're happy with that. Apply that nation wide and you get the worst tyranny you could possibly imagine. I need a better argument to be persuaded.
Always feels like Jonathan has another gear he taps into when put on the defensive. I enjoy those little moments.
I love it when Christian intellectuals show some teeth. We need way more of that.
timestamp?
Jonathan pageau is a voice Crying in the Wilderness. He happens to have one of the Most honest and realistic view about the situation in culture today. Especially what he says in 34:30, about the Disciples been scandalised by Jesus's arrest and wanting to pull out their sword to fight.
I think that is the mood of many Christians, as we see what is happening in culture.
I delight in the richness of these conversations! Thank you so much for sharing them with us! Praised be Jesus Christ, now and forever. Amen.
These are my favourite conversations
Glad I was able to circle back to this conversation. Great job, gentlemen. Appreciate you both.
Me before this video: Man I can't wait for the the PVK Jonathan Pageau interview to come out
Me after watching this video: Man I can't wait for the Cosmic Skeptic Jonathan Pageau interview to come out
The backstory of the Mohamed Hijab interview was fascinating... I went back and skimmed through the video again because of the mention it got in this. Boy does the context Jonathan gave in this talk help you understand that conversation better!
Agreed. Looking at it with this context feels completely different than when I viewed it basically in a vacuum back when I first saw it.
There were two hints that gave it away, and maybe I noticed them because I was born and I still live in a Muslim nation. First, the architecture in the background and second, they weren't wearing shoes. Of course, I couldn't know about what JBP was supposed to do there, but I guessed he brought Jonathan with, perhaps just to feel safer. It's dangerous to walk into a place like that after all, like sheep among wolves. And they are wolves; not all of them, but some like MH, and I can read it on their faces. They aren't touched by Christ or the Holy Spirit at all. You bring a Cross to a place like that, because "with this shall you conquer".
Gonna need this for work this morning. Thanks Paul!
Thank you Paul
Sweet, it's up! Thank you for this Paul
Great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thought provoking.
Great conversation, really appreciate the engagement here, a few notes:
Sure, hierarchies are disrupted, by rebellion, protesting, objection, opponent processing. The alternative is cooperation, submitting to something above both of you so that we can cooperate to building something bigger than either of us. I hear the emergence objection already, but that is inevitable, things will emerge. It is up to us to name those things (properly) and keep dominion over them. In other words, the problem of if we are living closer to heaven on earth or hell on earth is strictly a function of our behavior. If we all get along, we can cooperate to make things closer to heaven, if not, then we will always move closer to hell. Again, cooperation requires a submission to a common higher thing that happens to be towards the true, beautiful and good.
In the age of Gnosis, the church has receded and the negotiation of church and emperor isn't happening at all, we are just splintering apart, due to this opponent processing, this protesting and constant critique everyone seems so found of, as if they are smart enough or authoritative enough to do so.
Modernity is a flattening of the world through materialism. That is why it is best thought of as The Age of Gnosis, because it 'flattens' the world to 'knowledge' which is universal, it's objective, it's material and it perfectly reflects reality. Quite flat indeed, just the wrong moniker.
I'm not sure I like this frame of 'secular images' but the point is clear enough. It's more like desalinized images, where you are rebelling against the sacred and pretending as though you've banished it entirely. This separates heaven and earth so it's harder to bring them together. That manifests as a binary between doing things for heaven or earth, rather than trying to bring them together.
The frame doesn't collapse the world, story (through poetics) does this. The frame is also needed, so we are missing two things, one due to post modernism (the frame) the other due to a lack of acknowledgement and training (symbolic understanding through poetics) making Jonathan and Jordan the two most important folks to resolve the Meaning Crisis.
This point about hierarchy not in the Roman authority way is super important. Politics is a flattening of the idea of hierarchy and few seem to understand this.
Oh, so when it's your idea of God, you don't need to specify, but when it's Islam you are suddenly reticent? That is interesting indeed, Pastor Paul. You missed Jonathans excellent point right there.
Oh, still struggling with the one and the many. Get out of that neoPlatonic BS frame that Vervaeke pushes.
That context on the conversation with the Muslim really helped to frame things in a way that makes the conversation itself make more sense. Thanks!
True, sing it, people do NOT know history, at all. Almost none. It's stunning how little they know, both in time span and in detail.
John's take on AI is pretty out there. He's also technically wrong, but some of what he thinks might happen will, just not the way he thinks. This idea that AI will be inherently spiritual is so insane I cannot even.
I'm not sure about the useful of John's tools...they are more likely to become cults than anything else.
John's Silk Road idea is pretty strange, ultimately, I get why he's there, trying to create an intersection between East and West, but that isn't a new project and it's not necessary. East and West say the same thing using a slightly different emphasis, but it's very much the same.
I like this point about how shallow AI is and how until you use it, you won't notice. So the outside looks shiny and new, but it's really just a cannibal and you won't know that at first. This is the danger of all emergence is good sorts of attitudes, it's easy to see the new shiny thing, say 'oh look, shiny thing!' and think it's ok, or good, or must be protected, but in reality, it's a cannibal and you didn't notice yet. That happens a lot. That is the danger in spreading seeds without cultivating them. AI is a Frankenstein fun house mirror reflecting back on you and making you think it's outside of you.
AI has no body (it is parasitic upon yours), Daily Wire does. These two things are not the same.
Materialism doesn't put a cloak on things, it flattens, no need to hide anything, it's all equal or below human agency. In one way, AI has been around a long time, what we are seeing is the democratization of AI more than anything else. It is this accelerationism, things are moving REALLY fast now, stunningly fast. Too fast, far too fast.
Too bad Jonathan didn't answer the question about Québec. It was a fantastic question. (17:38)
It’s my family history as well. I’d suggest you look into Saint Sulpice.
Listening to this conversation was a joy and a blessing. I wish my friendship zone was like this!
The fact that only Peter was called satan is so interesting to contemplate. Amazing to contemplate and reflect on. Great work you two
I believe the tide is already turning.
I think what I said is, "In 500 years when there is an autocephalous Orthodox Church of Texas and guacamole has replaced hummus as the Lenten dip of choice."
I love that
That sounds great. 😊
This episode turned my mind to pure gravy. Praise The Lord Jesus Christ.
"Generations of cannibalism don't lead to healthy populations." Jonathan Pageau 1:25:00
Always enjoy these conversations 🙏.
Amen. Great conversation. Pushes one to search the scriptures & seek first the kingdom of God.
1:33:24 “God punishes you by giving you everything you want just to see if you can handle it" Mike Tyson
Minute 55 is a powerful moment about the absence of visual art in reformed circles, towards the end the daily wire question is answered with understanding, my respect grows for both of you, honorably opening your hearts. Holy Theotokos pray for us!
As a Hispanic, I would like to see more interest or knowledge of the Hispanic world. I think the "Black Legend" has done so much damage in this sense. It's an obviously so important piece in Christian history which always gets forgotten, especially among the anglos (and all their spheres of influence as well, which ,sadly, very often include Hispanic America).
The Spanish Catholic Empire was very different from all the colonial empires in modern Europe; it would be wrong to call it "colonial", being much more like Rome (replicating Spain everywhere it went).
Even if there was an incredible respect for the native americans (read the will of Queen Isabella about them, or the "Laws of Burgos" or the "Leyes Nuevas"), and the native Americans were allowed to keep their traditions as long as they weren't contrary to Catholicism (i.e.: human sacrifices), it is true that there were also many important sins, like wanting, in the case of the Iberian Penninsula (in the Americas paganism , of course, and necessarily, more or less coexisted with Catholicism), an absolutely purely Catholic kingdom, and to that purpose kicking out both Jews and Muslims (unless they agreed to become Christian). In practise, there is a lot in this part of history that can without a doubt be judged as forcing Christianity politically upon non-Christians. One does not need to be very intelligent to see that this is not very Christian... Since those Jews and Muslims for sure ended up hating Christianity much more, and the hope of their conversion was lost! It is even more saddening when one sees how those Sephardic Jews, many of which went to the Ottoman Empire, conserved their Spanish language for centuries, and wrote beautiful songs in it, which means they were Spanish, even if not Christian.
I am mentioning this because it was probably, in any case, the most "succesful" attempt of a "religiously pure empire", which did last until Napoleon's time. On the other hand, Spain is probably the European country which has cared the least about "race". There were black conquistadores, like Juan Garrido, who often had slaves of their own; and such fascinating characters as the black Juan Latino, a son of slaves who was considered one of the best Latinists of 16th century Spain, about whom Lope de Vega wrote a poem and some other writer a play, and who married a Spanish noble white lady. But the biggest sign that race was usually (there are always exceptions) not a big deal, was that marriage between races was always promoted.
It was certainly modern in many ways, but not at all modern in the Protestant-Capitalist-liberal-Free market sense (which basically comes from Calvinism, first in Holland and later in England). There was market, and even the first global market in it - a huge amount of trade between Mexico and China, for instance - but capitalism or free market were never, and would have never been allowed to become idols, as they very quickly did in both Holland, England, and all the anglo-world. The community (and this community had very much to do with the Catholic church) was always above the individual, and helping the poor (and not individually, but through the institution of the church, its orders, branches...) was seen as a duty.
This is the reason, by the way, why there are so many "communist tendencies" in Hispanic countries. Catholicism is just so absolutely incompatible with liberalism (by the way, liberalism in the Hispanic world is right-wing, it means basically individualism, free market and anti-community), even if many people are confused on this point nowadays. So, if there is no true Catholic politics, and especially if people have become agnostic/atheist, common people with a culturally Catholic background (especially Hispanic) will naturally feel drawn to socialism/communism. So we could call that the heresy of Catholic countries (also Orthodox, obviously, as was seen in the USSR, and in Greece as well communism was once very big, but because the religious doctrine, in which the community is above the individual, is quite similar there, as far as I know).
In Calvinist/Puritan countries, they feel drawn to the heresy of individualism, which is two-fold: on the one hand, the free market heresy, on the other , the heresy of wokism (obviously, all this "I can choose my gender" thing, or the "let's dress in the most ideosyncratic way possible", or the "new age", and all this, have nothing to do with communism, it is actually ultra-individualism, and it has 100 times more to do Ronald Reagan or Milton Freedman than with Marx or Fidel Castro).
I wish they would read your comment. But you have to realize most of these are Protestants and they are just woke progressive 1.0. They hate hate Catholicism. They need to convert. I was raised Calvinist and our whole identity was anti Catholicism
The internet is dominated by the American and English-speaking sphere. The Spanish Catholic colonization of the Americas had little to do with the British mostly Protestant colonization of Northern America. The Anglos basically exterminated every culture they encountered there. The Spanish brought Christianity and civilization while merging with those people's cultures creating new nations that became objectively much better than they were before the arrival of the Europeans. Certainly there were some black chapters in the Spanish conquista but most of it was very positive in the end for all involved, it was a non-racist and well-intended endeavour towards the natives. The Anglos were always racist towards all natives they colonized, segregated peoples and didn't merge with the pre-existing cultures.
Oh Finally! Man! The anticipation!!! Woo-hoo!
Very powerful and inspiring discussion, thank you for offering it
Amazing conversation!
Always good to hear you two talk
❤ This is the best! Do not look to men for salvation but trust in the Lord alone!!!
I also think about why Jesus told them to bring their swords to gethsemane and then chastised them for using the sword. I really loved Jonathan’s observation here and I’ll be catalyzing this for a while- in my wrestling with how to deal with the evil and injustice everywhere- don’t draw your sword and don’t run- but for God’s sake stay the hell awake!
Does it relate to JBP's definition of "meek", which is "someone who knows the art of war, but chooses not to fight"? As in, Christ is telling them to be prepared for battle, but to choose the path of meekness?
If they didn't bring their swords, Jesus couldn't have taught them and displayed His power! Agent/arena.... no? Agent shapes the arena? Potter shapes the clay?
57:30 and before - I see Paul VanderKlay thinking. There IS some intellectual honesty there. There is hope for this man. There is. In my zeal to denounce the great Satan of Protestantism I have often missed seeing that before. Paul VanderKlay MAY be saved
Relieved to hear that
Up to 28:25 Whilst the Church can define the state's commission, a particular temporary state that will end cannot define for the Church what the Church's commission is. I've edited that thought into my longer post regarding this video.
Nice flight with this conversation! 😊
The bit about Christians and Jews becoming the atheists brings to mind when you first mentioned the Burned Over District. My first thought was what the people of that partnof New York later became, especially given the ideal of the District in its prime.
They were zealous for God, then abandoned God but never abandoned their zeal.
It's also possible that that kind of ecstatic mass religion is from some source other than God. The earlier American Great Awakenings may not be so distinct from the current Woke Revolution than American low Church Protestants would care to believe.
It's also possible that that kind of ecstatic mass religion is from some source other than God. The earlier American Great Awakenings may not be so distinct from the current Woke Revolution than American low Church Protestants would care to believe.
Bach and Shakespeare were two of the most consequential artist in History and they were both Protestant
Saints sacrifice.
Kierkegaard made the distinction between a saint and a genius
I thought there was some sort of question mark about Shakespeare’s beliefs. Some have suggested he was a recusant catholic. Obviously it was a time when beliefs were in flux so maybe he had a mixture of beliefs
I accept Bach as Christian. Shakespeare was a Humanist. If he wanted to be Catholic, he should have moved to Italy.
@@williambranch4283agreed. Because - Goethe. Goethe revered Shakespeare and had strong Humanist inclinations. But he denounced Christianity. If Shakespeare had been an obvious Christian, Goethe would have had something to say against his work 😂
@@Charlies_Little_Corner Per great literary critics, the point of great literature is to model ever greater human consciousness. More like Pageau perhaps than Vervaecke.
We'll do it live !
Paul NEEDS to be at the Symbolic World conference. I’m surprised he’s not a speaker.
Only got through the first 5 minutes. Never seen so many topics jammed into one question. Remarkable.
I felt like Paul did a lot more talking than normal in this one. Probably because he and Jonathan haven't spoken much recently. Still, a good conversation.
That's funny because in these conversations sometimes I get knocked for listening too much. I talked even more with Martin Shaw
I think it was important for him to hear you reflect back what you were seeing so he has something to go with- also, when you both speak we get higher definition with more contrast and definition to the ideas
@@PaulVanderKlayYou seem to always find the right balance!
I wish you had paused more often and given Jonathan more time to speak
@@PaulVanderKlayPaul, when are you converting to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy? I am happy to have a conversation with you anytime to show the absolute necessity of this, the corruption must be removed FROM THE ROOT
I often think about my theological forebearers, who swam out into the river Tiber to rescue children being exposed to die for their imperfections, and who cared for the dying in the midst of the various plagues sweeping through Rome. No one then could have imagined the empire being utterly transformed by their actions, by their faithfulness. Remember, the gladiatorial games didn't actually end until 404 when Almachius, a monk, climbed into the arena and challenged the crowd, who stoned him to to death for interrupting their entertainment. So what do we do in these times? The same thing as ever. Be faithful, and obey. The harvest is rich, the grain groans under the weight of the kernels. May the Lord of the harvest send more workers.
I think we need a Universal History episode dealing with the Spainish Inquistion & Reconquista contra hersey, Islam, and Sephardic Judism. Should dovetail with the small Catholic contingent who seek canonization of Queen Ysabela I. Would give a good case study on the strengths and weaknesses of a homogenizing Emperor
They don’t want to discuss Catholicism because they refuse to repent of the rebellion against God of the Protestant Revolution
patience has been rewarded 😂
Favorite moment: Jonathan Pageau explaining to Paul Vanderklay Calvin's observation and insistence that the human heart is an idol factory . 🤣
Calvin was a woke progressive, the original woke leftist progressive in fact
Ummm, okay.Anachronistic, but how about giving that title to the other Genevan, Rousseau?
@@monicamurphy1792 The rupture starts with Luther, but Calvin steps into the gap and invents wokeness. Look no further than the smashing of statues - it’s staring you in the face as soon as you admit the truth
@@catholicconvert2119 i think its remarkably unwise to apply the modern partisan dichotomy upon history. relative to the romans, the early Christians would have been seen as woke revolutionaries as well. The dichotomy constantly shifts.
@@kuhatsuifujimoto9621 This is not a loose historical analogy but an exact critique of the origins of an idea. You can trace it very easily- where does wokeness come from? MASSACHUSETTS, HARVARD, it comes from the PURITANS and the institution that JONATHAN EDWARDS was first president of
24 mins in, glad to hear this sharp distinction between the civilizational form of Christianity (which seems to me like the type of religious external Jesus harshly rebuked in Matt24 I think- because it had the form without the substance that produces anything of value and was a source of incredible injustice and abuse and was an insult to the name of God) - and the kingdom Jesus was bringing- where we clean the inside of the cup first - I can’t really say what I want to say in a TH-cam comment, but thanks- this was good
Active Christianity vs passive Christianity. Passive religion fits with well-behaved consumerism.
Completely incorrect. These two are not set against each other. Civilization being Christian does not make people somehow less personally Christian - it’s the opposite. A civilization becomes Christian when a great many people convert to the point it subverts the state.
1:00:00. Also the veil into the Holy of Holies in the Temple would have had the Zodiac on it…puts another layer of meaning into the account of the “rending of the veil” when Jesus dies in the cross
Thanks
19:38 - re: the Ark. I went with a Noah’s Ark them for my newborn. We need to create our own arks for the coming times.
Wonderful! Great wide ranging discussion between brothers.... our project is to make believers of men.... surreptitiously.....
"we as human beings can never get the mix right" - we do get it right but it would only stay "right" in a static world/universe. It's like saying set your sails in a fixed position and we will reach the destination... Without fully understanding that the sails themselves need to constantly be adjusted to contend with the prevailing winds while being mindful of our current orientation and heading towards a desired goal or outcome.
The assertion that the West never truly civilized itself and replaced religious structures with secular ones. Let's break down the points step by step:
1. **Climbing the Ladder of Religion to Secularism then kicked it away:**
- **Example:** The shift from religious authority to secular governance can be seen in historical events like the Enlightenment period, where reason and science gained prominence over purely religious dogma.
2. **Supernatural Monitoring to Surveillance:**
- **Example:** From the concept of divine judgment in religious beliefs, societies transitioned to extensive surveillance systems like CCTV, courts, and police for social order.
3. **Modern Technology and Penitentiary:**
- **Example:** The development of penitentiaries as a means of punishment reflects a shift from religious notions of sin and redemption to a more secular approach focused on rehabilitation and social control.
4. **Relative Prosperity and Lack of Existential Threat:**
- **Example:** The post-World War II era brought relative stability and economic prosperity to the West, reducing immediate existential threats and fostering a sense of security.
5. **Secularism as "Diet Christianity":**
- **Example:** Secular values such as human rights and equality can be seen as deriving from Christian moral principles, albeit with a secular interpretation.
6. **Secular Utopia and Disillusionment:**
- **Example:** The anticipation of a utopian society without religious constraints led to the expectation of a perfect, harmonious world under secular governance.
7. **Current Challenges and Wars:**
- **Example:** Ongoing geopolitical tensions and conflicts challenge the idea of a peaceful, utopian secular world, reflecting a more pragmatic and complex reality.
8. **Economic Challenges and Consumerism:**
- **Example:** Economic pressures and the inability to sustain high levels of consumerism contribute to disillusionment, as material wealth alone does not fulfill the promise of utopia.
9. **Scapegoating and Mass Dissatisfaction:**
- **Example:** In times of social unrest or economic hardship, societies may seek scapegoats to blame for unfulfilled promises, potentially leading to tensions and conflicts.
10. **Reflection on the Illusion of Utopia:**
- **Example:** As people come to the realization that a perfect society may never materialize, there can be a collective sense of betrayal and the need to hold someone accountable for unmet expectations.
The Kingdom of God advances without threat of death or suffering, or fear of it. 25:00
The movie Jesus of Nazareth with Robert Powell gives a thought-provoking portrayal of Judas.
The Gospels' Peter story is about a man of law confronting a man of grace (Jesus). In the process he demonstrates the essentials that Paul described in his argument about law and sin. Peter had his own Romans 7 crash and burn when the cock crowed (that which I would do , I do not). Peter's epistles show a dramatic rise out of his futile efforts of justice toward a grace through faith realization. I can see why he came to have fond words for Paul.
While secularism aims to establish a neutral public sphere that does not favor any particular religious belief or doctrine, it is true that the secular framework itself can be seen as promoting its own grand narrative or worldview. This narrative often emphasizes rationality, human autonomy, and scientific inquiry without incorporating religious ways of thinking in the public sphere. Consequently, some argue that secularism may not achieve complete neutrality.
Here's a step-by-step guide to further illustrate this perspective:
1. Implicit worldview of secularism: Secularism, as a philosophical and political stance, is built upon certain underlying assumptions and values. These assumptions often prioritize rationality, scientific inquiry, and human autonomy as the primary sources of knowledge and ethical principles.
Example: In secular societies, public policies and decision-making are often grounded in reason, evidence, and the pursuit of individual freedoms and rights, without giving explicit consideration to religious ways of thinking or moral frameworks derived from religious traditions.
2. Limitations on religious expression in the public sphere: While secularism aims to accommodate diverse religious perspectives, it often imposes limitations on the expression of religious beliefs in the public domain. This can be seen as favoring a particular secular worldview over religious ways of thinking.
Example: In some secular societies, restrictions may be placed on religious symbols or practices in public institutions, such as banning religious attire or prohibiting religious ceremonies in public spaces. These restrictions can be perceived as privileging secular expressions of belief over religious expressions.
3. Emphasis on rationality and exclusion of religious discourse: Secularism tends to prioritize rationality and scientific inquiry as the basis for public discourse and decision-making. Religious ways of thinking, rooted in faith and revelation, may not be accorded the same weight or consideration in public debates.
Example: In public discussions on contentious issues, such as bioethics or social policies, arguments based on religious beliefs or religious moral frameworks may be dismissed or marginalized, as they do not conform to the prevailing secular emphasis on rationality and evidence-based reasoning.
4. Challenges to claims of neutrality: Critics argue that secularism, by favoring certain modes of thinking and excluding religious perspectives, cannot claim complete neutrality. They contend that the secular framework itself embodies a particular worldview that may marginalize or ignore religious ways of thinking.
Example: Critics might argue that secularism, with its focus on reason and rationality, neglects the role of faith, spiritual experiences, and moral guidance derived from religious traditions. This exclusion can be seen as a bias against religious perspectives in the public sphere.
5. Call for inclusive dialogue and recognition: Some proponents of religious perspectives argue for a more inclusive public sphere that incorporates a range of worldviews, including religious ways of thinking. They advocate for a more robust engagement between religious and secular perspectives in shaping public policies and societal norms.
Example: Proponents might call for a recognition of the diversity of religious beliefs and a greater openness to dialogue between religious and secular worldviews. They argue that an inclusive public sphere should not privilege one particular narrative or worldview, but instead foster respectful engagement and mutual understanding.
It's important to note that different interpretations and implementations of secularism exist, and debates continue regarding its boundaries and principles. The claim of neutrality is a subject of ongoing discussion and critique, and there are efforts to develop more inclusive approaches that accommodate diverse perspectives, including religious ways of thinking, in the public sphere.
Certainly! Here's a step-by-step guide to further illustrate how secularism, while claiming neutrality, may favor a particular worldview and exclude religious ways of thinking in the public sphere:
1. Assumptions and values of secularism: Secularism is built upon assumptions and values that prioritize rationality, scientific inquiry, and human autonomy as the primary sources of knowledge and ethical principles in the public sphere.
Example: In public debates on ethical issues such as assisted reproductive technologies or end-of-life decisions, arguments based on scientific evidence and individual autonomy may be given more weight, while religious perspectives that emphasize divine commandments or moral traditions may be marginalized.
2. Limitations on religious expression: While secularism aims to accommodate religious perspectives, there can be restrictions on religious expression in the public sphere, leading to a potential privileging of secular perspectives over religious ones.
Example: In some secular societies, limitations may be imposed on the display of religious symbols or the practice of certain religious rituals in public spaces, such as government offices or schools. This exclusion of religious expression can be seen as favoring a particular secular worldview.
3. Emphasis on reason and exclusion of religious discourse: Secularism often places a strong emphasis on reason, evidence, and scientific inquiry as the basis for public discourse and decision-making. Religious ways of thinking, rooted in faith and revelation, may not be given the same level of consideration or recognition.
Example: In public debates on issues such as climate change or education policy, arguments based on scientific evidence and empirical data may take precedence, while religious perspectives that draw on faith or spiritual beliefs may be dismissed as lacking rationality or objectivity.
4. Marginalization of religious moral frameworks: Secularism tends to marginalize or ignore religious moral frameworks in the public sphere, as they may not align with the prevailing emphasis on individual autonomy, rights, and utilitarian ethical principles.
Example: In discussions on issues such as same-sex marriage or abortion, secular arguments based on individual rights and personal autonomy may take center stage, while religious perspectives that hold differing moral positions based on religious teachings may be disregarded or dismissed as non-rational or outdated.
5. Critiques of neutrality claim: Critics argue that secularism, by privileging certain modes of thinking and excluding religious perspectives, cannot claim complete neutrality in the public sphere. They contend that the secular framework itself embodies a particular worldview that may marginalize or ignore religious ways of thinking.
Example: Critics might point out that the secular emphasis on reason and rationality neglects the role of faith, spiritual experiences, and moral guidance derived from religious traditions. They argue that true neutrality should accommodate and engage with a diversity of worldviews, including religious perspectives.
6. Calls for inclusive dialogue and recognition: Some proponents of religious perspectives advocate for a more inclusive public sphere that incorporates diverse worldviews, including religious ways of thinking. They call for a respectful engagement between religious and secular perspectives in shaping public policies and societal norms.
Example: Proponents might emphasize the importance of recognizing the diversity of religious beliefs and values in public debates and decision-making processes. They argue that an inclusive public sphere should allow for robust dialogue and mutual understanding between different worldviews, including religious and secular perspectives.
It's important to note that interpretations and implementations of secularism can vary across different societies.
There is a huge difference between being non-religious and anti-religious. The anti-religious are secular terrorists,.
This sounds like Chat GPT 🤣
The transformation of yourself is the thing you can do all the time . . .
Hey Mr. Vanderklay, one reference you can check out is the Encyclical of Pope Benedict XVI "Deus Caritas Est." Specifically part 2, number 28. It's super relevant.
Hey Paul,
Great convos with Jonathan!
Around 58 minutes in JP is talking about the loss of theology in visual arts in the Protestant tradition. While I understand what he was getting at, he is forgetting some of his art history. The northern European painters had strong theological presentations in many media(Durer, Van Eyck, Rembrandt, etc.) He is correct that things did move toward more secular images, but even in still life's and portraits the artist who often place elements of ' memento mori'(remember your death) in the works. These might include decaying flowers or fruit in a still life or a mirror with a spectre of death in a portrait. The point is that the art was no longer iconography, but there were often Christian and theological messages woven into them, particularly in the Northern Renaissance and later Baroque periods.
Even Erasmian Humanism is a step back from religion.
But Christian and theological messages being in a painting is still fundamentally a moralistic and didactic approach to art, where art is supplementary to studying the Bible, it provides some more easily digestible information. What Jonathan is getting at, at least what I understand it to be, is about art as an imitation of incarnation. Art as word becoming flesh, as for instance holy icons taking part in sacraments and liturgy, similarly to how baptismal waters are an ordinary way to baptise or how Moses rod was used to split the sea.
I took it as a comment on modern day Protestantism. And more specifically the evangelical strains of it. I grew up in those spaces and I will say there is a great lack of beauty in them.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmen- there’s like a weird Puritanism in some of the evangelical stuff. As a kid, some of our church friends got into a church that said that even singing and dancing was too close to worshipping the devil. Sounds like projection by the pastor to me lol.
@@_BirdOfGoodOmenthis is it, there aren't many prominent liturgical artists among the Protestant traditions; even if Anglicans and Lutherans still have and use art as the Roman Catholics do.
Awesome! next we need Matthieu Pageau! Lol
I've invited him.
@@PaulVanderKlay nice
@PaulVanderKlay I really hope he accepts your offer, he's a super private person haha and he's super busy in the cold right now but hopefully he can get back on twitter or release his new book and maybe start doing some interviews again!
thanks. Got some closure about the Hijab debate.
General question... why does no one in TLC ever even reference "The Chosen" series? Not looking for a fight.... just some clue as to why it's been ignored.
Great conversation.
Love me some PVK and Jonathan P
Paul havent you already understand ..or accepted that you ARE an artist too ..a humanity community creator of great degree..
The Protestant theology of image begins and ends with the individual: imago dei. But not in the symbolic and not in the art, fear of idolatry
The arc of the covenant - straight image. Indiana jones/star wars were more religious in symbolic meaning than the Protestant church. Lucas Spielberg picked up where Tolkien and Lewis left off, with out Christ tho
Lucas had his own twist on Christ. His Chosen One was tempted and failed. Yet his son, Luke, redeemed him through sacrifice and Anakin’s final act was to save his son out of love, sacrificing his own life for his son’s.
I mean that’s what Jesus’s story is about. It’s about how sacrifice is a rebirth. It’s all there. It’s why ppl love Star Wars even if they don’t know why.
Word.
Daniel is an in-between echo between Genesis Joseph and Christ
I’ve been enjoying the little corner videos for some time now, and accept the encouragement to be more than a consumer. So, here are a couple of comments:
“We as human beings can never get the mix right”. Perhaps this is God‘s intention; that reality is not best described as a pendulum, but as cycles. That would explain the transitional period that we’re in, where the works of men are coming to an end - that mankind (including the “church”) might experience our ineptitude at solving civilizational problems. Perhaps 2Corinthians 3:18 applies to groups of all sizes as much as it does to the individuals in those groups. And perhaps it does not only apply to believers.
“We are in a returning moment.” I like the hand motion of a cycle, but I would propose that God‘s intention, and the execution of His plan in the age is not about returning, but moving to the next level of maturity. The image of a spiral staircase seems to be popular. The silhouette of a mountain with plateaus at various levels is also a helpful image. BTW: The same is true (ie., maturing) in reading the Gospels over and over - we grow by and in them.
Have a strong day in the Lord,
Rob
The contrasting perspectives on Christianity, secularism and Islam regarding the integration of values, ethics, and various aspects of life:
**Secularism as "Diet Christianity" and Politics as Ethic Writ Large:**
1. **Secularism as "Diet Christianity"**:
- **Step 1**: Some critics characterize secularism as a diluted or reduced form of Christianity, suggesting that it retains certain moral and ethical aspects while discarding the religious foundation.
- **Example**: Secular ethics may draw on values traditionally associated with Christianity, such as concepts of justice and human rights, while divorcing them from their religious origins.
2. **Politics as Ethic Writ Large**:
- **Step 1**: The statement implies that, in a secular context, political decisions are often guided by ethical considerations, serving as a broader expression of societal values.
- **Example**: Secular democracies often frame laws and policies based on ethical principles such as equality, freedom, and justice, even without explicit religious grounding.
**Islam as an Integrated and Holistic Approach:**
1. **Integrated Approach to Life**:
- **Step 1**: Islam is described as offering an integrated and holistic approach to life, implying that religious principles permeate all aspects of an individual's existence.
- **Example**: Islamic teachings guide not only religious practices but also daily activities, interpersonal relationships, and business transactions.
2. **Absence of Sundering Facts from Values**:
- **Step 1**: The statement suggests that in Islam, there is no separation between factual knowledge and value-based judgments.
- **Example**: Islamic teachings encourage the pursuit of knowledge (facts) while emphasizing the ethical and moral dimensions of that knowledge.
3. **Unity of Scientific Explanation and Purpose**:
- **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no sundering of scientific explanation from purpose, indicating a seamless integration of understanding the natural world and recognizing divine purpose.
- **Example**: Islamic scholars historically made significant contributions to various scientific fields, seeing scientific inquiry as a means of better understanding Allah's creation.
4. **Unity of Morality and Law**:
- **Step 1**: The statement suggests that Islamic morality and legal principles are intricately connected, with ethical considerations guiding legal frameworks.
- **Example**: Sharia, Islamic law, incorporates moral and ethical principles derived from the Quran and Sunnah into legal rulings.
5. **Unity of Theoretical Inquiries and Practical Ways of Living**:
- **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no sundering of theoretical inquiries from practical ways of living, emphasizing the practical application of theoretical knowledge.
- **Example**: Islamic theology and philosophy provide a framework for understanding existence, and this understanding is expected to inform the practical aspects of a Muslim's life.
6. **No Sundering of Politics from Ethics**:
- **Step 1**: The statement asserts that Islam does not separate politics from ethics, indicating that ethical considerations are integral to political decision-making.
- **Example**: Islamic governance principles incorporate ethical values, and leaders are expected to uphold justice, compassion, and accountability.
7. **No Sundering of Sacred from Profane**:
- **Step 1**: In Islam, there is purportedly no division between the sacred and the profane, suggesting that all aspects of life can be infused with religious significance.
- **Example**: Islamic rituals, prayers, and ethical guidelines are not confined to specific sacred spaces but are woven into the fabric of daily life.
In summary, the statements highlight a contrast between the perceived secular approach, where ethics may be detached from religious foundations, and the Islamic approach, which emphasizes an integrated, holistic worldview where religious principles inform every aspect of life.
Wow, what a comment!
This is exactly what I spend so much time trying to explain to people- Muslims often are confused by the western separation of religion and life- and vice versa, Americans are perplexed by the inextricability of religion from life in Islam. However, practically speaking, most Muslims have religion bound in their language and customs and law, but they also have the issue of being “white washed tombs” that Jesus rebuked in the religious elite. There’s a danger in relying institutionalizing and “culturalizing” that which requires whole person devotion to be marked as anything amounting to faith acceptable to God. Is it better to have the civilitational aspect? Maybe, but Jesus said the prostitutes and tax collectors and those who had no religious cover were entering the kingdom ahead of the religious ones.
Not sure if David Bentley Hart essay "Christ and Nothing" was mentioned in these comments, but if you were the one who posted about that essay, thank you. I would love to find video or conversations about this essay.
Great get together of the 2 sides of the original little corner of the internet, now the walls of the corner have expanded tremendously but good to know the corner is still there.
The Evolution of Secularism
let's explore the development of secularism through different historical transformations, considering its roots in Christian history and subsequent evolutions:
**1. Monastic Origins:**
- **Beginning of Secularism:** The term "secular" has its roots in Christian monasticism. When a monk chose to leave the monastic life and integrate into the everyday life of the community (the commons), this transition was considered secular.
- **Example:** A monk deciding to leave the monastery and engage in the secular world, participating in civic life or pursuing non-religious activities.
**2. Henry VIII and Dissolution of Monasteries:**
- **Desanctification of Church Properties:** During the reign of Henry VIII in the 16th century, England underwent significant religious changes. Henry dissolved monasteries and confiscated their properties, putting them into the secular market. This rendered these properties desanctified and marked a transformation of secularism.
- **Example:** Former monastery lands being repurposed for secular uses, such as agricultural or commercial ventures.
**3. Secularism in the Enlightenment:**
- **Intellectual Movement:** In the Enlightenment, secularism took on a more philosophical and intellectual character. The emphasis shifted towards reason, science, and the separation of church and state.
- **Example:** Enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire and Rousseau advocating for a secular state that prioritizes reason and individual liberties over religious authority.
**4. Secularism as Separation of Church and State:**
- **Modern Definition Emerges:** In the 19th and 20th centuries, secularism evolved to emphasize the separation of church and state. This transformation aimed to create societies where religious beliefs do not dictate political decisions, laws, or public policies.
- **Example:** Constitutional provisions in secular states explicitly separating religious institutions from governmental affairs (e.g., the First Amendment in the United States).
**5. Secularism in the 21st Century:**
- **Pluralistic and Inclusive:** Modern secularism often promotes a pluralistic and inclusive society where individuals of various religious beliefs and non-believers coexist. It seeks to create a neutral public space where diverse perspectives are respected.
- **Example:** Laws and policies that ensure equal treatment for people of all religious beliefs and those who identify as secular or non-religious.
**6. Critiques of Secularism:**
- **Challenges and Debates:** While secularism has evolved to promote religious freedom and inclusivity, it faces critiques. Some argue that it can inadvertently marginalize certain religious or cultural groups.
- **Example:** Debates surrounding laws on the display of religious symbols in public spaces, such as schools or government buildings.
**7. Global Secularism Variations:**
- **Diverse Manifestations:** Secularism takes different forms in various countries, influenced by historical, cultural, and political contexts. Some societies have strong secular traditions, while others navigate a delicate balance between secularism and religious influence.
- **Example:** Contrasts between secularism in Western democracies and variations in countries where religion plays a more central role in governance.
In summary, secularism's development has been marked by historical transformations, from its monastic origins to its role in the Enlightenment and its contemporary emphasis on the separation of church and state. This evolution reflects changing attitudes towards the role of religion in public life and the ongoing quest for a society that respects diverse beliefs and perspectives.
Cthulhu swims slowly but always to the Left.
PVK is touched regarding sacred art.
What a thumbnail
I agree, top five, especially since it breaks the PVK template
22:00 someone please annunciate what is the pattern? The seed, the rebirth and resurrection but make me see the pattern as it corresponds to the cultural war. I can’t see it yet.
Jordan is that friend who invites you to visit his......other friends. Poor Jonathan! He was such a trooper and good sport about it.
Am up to 13:30. Legislation refers to an inherent identity in reference to which there is legislation; so the attempt to legislate is theistic; so the individual legislator (voter) who wants to logically steward will always be expressing some form of theocracy; the biblical command echoed in the New Testament "honour everyone" evidently commands the consideration of everyone's responsibility and eventual vote, a consideration that bio-logically respects the human responsibility to learn to bio-logically steward an ecosystem that includes their bio-logical body; the human digestive system means we have a right to nourishment, the human immune system means we have a right to an available vaccine; the human reproductive system means we have an eventual right to mutually marry a member of the opposite sex in terms of reproductive organs; a voted for parliamentary debating chamber is a place where learning and voting can take place so Christian theocracy establishes democratic bio-logical projects that function as countries as part of Christianity's international cosmopolitanism; it also makes sense to have a constitution that admits that whilst the Church can define the state's commission, a particular temporary state that will end cannot define for the Church what the Church's commission is; in terms of what is allowed and what is not allowed, that can be voted on; religion like anything else that can be tolerated in a community can be voted on and in a way that accepts that people ought to work things out as stewards - but that will be subject to reasonable guards if a person expresses dangerous thoughts; whilst we can vote, the individual is not to enact the illogical wishes of any illogical, anti-human policy of any majority; a monarch, as a form of juror, a referee who decides if the proposed law is just in given circumstances could represent the authority of the individual against a corrupt majority; and the individual has the authority as a steward about whether or not they want to trust any person with any particular responsibility. As far as I can tell, whilst Jesus forbids murderous intent and abolished the death penalty around 2000 years ago, He affirms the protective use of weapons of defense and self-defense. Were a murderous attacker to suffer a fatal blow as a consequence of defensive action then evidently that would be God (who defends the extent of human rights) not the mere human defender of human rights taking vengeance; we are to strive to create a space of repentance and reconciliation on the earth through a respect of human responsibility; it is God alone who decides the extent of any particular responsibility. [Up to 20:30] Jesus' death was a uniquely qualified sacrifice; we are to encourage everyone to be living sacrifices of bio-logical service. Up to 26:56: The Church is to go out and command that all including the political leaders repent under Christ's Kingship and if they don't we are to tie up the murderous leaders and replace them as office bearers.
I so enjoyed this. Thank you❤
1:01:00 Protestantism thinks it can have the universal without the particular. We are all priests! But when we ask what it looks like in the day to day, we have no priests to think of. If all days are holy, no days are holy kind of thing.
Yup! Protestantism is a crime, a deep stain, a root of rebellion against God. The culture cannot be healed until the Protestant admits their sin, and confesses and converts
"You have people looking for an emperor, or a nation"
God would let an empire fall, to save a single soul.
Human leadership, even a Pope ... is broken leadership.
Would he raise one or preserve one, even a terribly evil one, to save one soul?
@@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1 He probably has in the past.
Kyros: the Othordox church isn’t everywhere, so people in smaller contexts have no option than to just exist until the Divine Liturgy reaches every space? There must be some avenue of bringing deeper meaning to Christian space with out it just being simply a mutant, but rather an organism growing and maturing
Thank you so much for having a Christian mystic on your channel!
Is Peter's delay in building the Church on Mount Tabor to building it at the Empire's capital like God's rejection of David's attempt to build the Temple? What of David as a man of war and Solomon as a man of peace and/or wisdom?
1:33:52 at the risk of sounding like a broken record, if you're interested in a creative documentary about AGI, God, Revelation etc. interspersed with film references from Metropolis to Terminator, the "What is a Human?" series, esp. Chapters 3 and 7-9 might pique your interest. Even more so, since I combine the ideas of Pageau, Jordan Hall and John Vervaeke with it.
1:06:00 The ending of Loki 2
During christian millenium, the state was restrained and distinct from the church. Rome combined the two and that was and is a serious error. Ultimately that combined power went to absolute monarchs and then to Man via democracy.
Symphonia died in the East as well, for the same reasons: prosperity led to corruption at every level.
After the Turks took over Constantinople, the ruling Sultan Mehmed II, who led the capture of the city, had a recurring dream about a hand with five fingers. Upset that neither he nor any other Muslim could decipher its meaning, the Sultan sent out his men to find the monk Gennadios, who was renowned for his insight into things of a spiritual nature. Once they found him, the men asked monk Gennadios to interpret the Sultan’s dream. Gennadios agreed but said he needed to fast and pray for several days before he would be able to interpret it.
After fasting and praying, he was informed by God what the dream meant. The hand with five fingers the Sultan continually saw in his dream represented five faithful Christians-the five faithful Christians Constantinople did not have living in it at the time of its collapse.
“If there had been only five faithful Christians in Constantinople, God would not have allowed it to be captured by you,” monk Gennadios explained to the Sultan.
Frame: school of thought
Helpful
Amen
I can understand why Dr. Jordan Peterson encourages everyone to hear you. The things you say are in another level. It is really hard for us to connect things you mention. I think maybe you are one of the few real thinkers I’ve heard. We all replicate what we have heard. You really create new ideas.
To understand what happened at the mosque in London, ask yourself how keen Jordan’s bosses at DW would be for a fruitful dialog between Christians & Muslims to occur.
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It's extremely difficult or next to impossible to have a dialogue between very devout Muslims and Christians. Read the Quran and Hadiths. A verse from the Quran 98:6: إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ وَٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ فِى نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَـٰلِدِينَ فِيهَآ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ ٱلْبَرِيَّةِ ٦ translated: Indeed, those who disbelieve from the People of the Book and the polytheists will be in the Fire of Hell, to stay there forever. They are the worst of ˹all˺ beings. I believe that a devout Muslim believes that the Trinity means that Christians are polytheists as an example. And if you believe in Jesus Christ as being God, you commit the sin of sherk, one of the worst sins that can be committed in Islam. Ultimately, our goal should be to reach Muslims for God's kingdom. Ayann Hirsi Ali has converted to Christianity after leaving Islam's torturous life into atheism which was also not helping and now to Christianity. What is you problem with the DW?
We all know that's not happening.
To what extent can orthodox westerners incorporate the religious culture of Catholicism and Western Europe? I just have this image in my head of westerners sitting around listening to eastern chanting and doing away with a rich religious history. A bit like those who convert to Islam and change their name and start talking in Arabic terms lol. It’s important to maintain a degree of continuity I think
In America there are Orthodox Western Rite parishes, though not many. It will happen, but it will take time. I discussed this issue with my Priest and he blessed me to use some Western prayers in my personal prayer life. He was also intending to use Gregorian chant in the Divine Liturgy, but unfortunately he moved to a parish in a different country. The current Priest is not as open to such things, but he is a temporary Priest until we find a permanent one, so hopefully the permanent Priest will be more open to it.
You can just convert to Catholicism instead and worry about taking care of your own house rather than fleeing to another
“Evacuated the space of firm” - evangelicalism then co-ops concert and Ted talk
Every time there is an ad take a drink
I have a question that I hope can be answered that is somewhat unrelated to this specific video but related to Christianity in general.
I rarely hear Jonathan discuss the pivotal role of women in Christianity like Mother Mary, Magdalene, or Martha for example. What does orthodoxy have to say about these important women and their significance in the Bible?
I can’t help but get the feeling that there is a reluctance or even a sort of distaste for this topic especially from figures like Jordan Peterson. I think Peterson even said at one point that the feminine is something that is chaotic and needs to be civilized by reason, which in a way I agree with however I’d like to believe man and women - Adam and Eve are of equal importance and in equal partnership within our world. I’m picking up on a fear or demonization and a resulting demotion of the female energy from the Christian community.
I’d love to hear a response on this.
This was great but, I don't think I've EVER watched a video that had so many ads on it. Like we're talking every three to five minutes.
I found a new church on the day of Epiphany 😂 officially ex atheist, transformed and free, reborn in Christ consciousness 🙏 BOND Church
Praise God! Now go and make disciples!
Yes! We have 6 kids so I have my work cut out for me 😅🥹💓 starting at home
Home is a great place for ministry and disciple-making! The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face to shine upon you, and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you, and give you peace!
That’s good but remember Christ isn’t just a consciousness He’s a real flesh and blood man whose physical body you must eat to have eternal life
Indeed, he is the Word made flesh who tabernacled among us.
That formula you gave for how Christ was risen, is risen, and will rise is very similar to how Catholics (and probably orthodox) formulate the concept of our salvation. We were saved, are being saved, and hope to be saved.
I know you don’t generally speak on doctrinal issues, and especially not in a personal way, but I’m curious how your own beliefs on doctrine have changed in light of your interactions with JP among others and the ruminations of the last few years. It may not be your thing, but I’ll state my interest all the same :)
He will convert to Catholicism or Orthodoxy very soon