My Rant on Mythic+ Deaths and why the Community got their feedback wrong...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
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Yeah, some of these Mythic+ players never stick around long enough to see whether or not you can still time a key with 10 deaths. They are not in a position to judge whether or not it's possible.
with all the weakaura and addon developers out there you'd think someone could calculate your run time considering group average dps or something. it's gotta be possible to get a rough estimate.
@@kfactor99 Do you really think that these rage quitters would utilize some sort of add on to estimate the probability of success before they desert a key?
Right, if every key was finished, I can only imagine how high we might see the average death count.
That 24 death RLP really begs the question!
@@kfactor99dungeons arent linear because pulls and bosses are completely situational depending on how the group routes and which packs they pull so there is no way for an addon to tell whether you will time a 30 minute dungeon, 10 minutes into it.
Something I've found that's not unique to WoW, is that long-time players have a VERY skewed understanding of what a "good" and "bad" player are. And they have absolutely no idea what "casual" actually means.
CE absolutely means you're a good player. You're statistically WELL above average if you're getting CE each tier without paying for it. But they'll look at a log where someone died once and say something to the effect of "lol, guy sucks and is carried" because they have this giant inflated ego that makes them pretend that if they were in that position they'd never screw anything up.
This guy probably doesn't do 19s. He's very likely doing +5s where he outgears it and isn't seeing many deaths because nothing's lethal. Especially with that 'healer carry' comment. Even semi-hardcore players that have attempted +12 or so without complete endgame ilvl would know that some deaths just happen. It's not even necessarily that someone ate something they shouldn't. There are times in M+ currently where mobs can just smash your face in from RNG. Nokhud has plenty of those moments at the very start. Fortified Nokhud can just instantly kill a random caster unless they pre-defensived a pull expecting to get chosen as target 3x in a row. And if it happens again while defensive is down? You're just dead. The healer's not carrying you through it. Same with rotting wind in the same dungeon. At a high enough level if that gets off? The healer's not carrying it, you're just gonna wipe. It's up to everyone else to have used their stops/interrupts well.
And I mean, was he just not here for the megadungeon? Cause some of those pulls would just instant delete a person from top tier teams that were pushing WF level keys.
But also, people make mistakes. I've seen Dorki/Growl keys where they do something dumb and wipe, or one person dies to something avoidable. Not everyone is 100% on their game at all times. Even if they were, most people are inconsistent. They'll have bad days, etc.
It's totally unrealistic to expect that the standard should be 2 deaths = failure. That's something that only should (and currently only does) exist at the World first level.
Exceptionally well said. Couldn't have said it better myself!
So funny the twist of this guy who came in guns blazing very opinionated later admitting that he has little actual experience, whilst talking to someone with immense documented experience.
Ya, kinda crazy. I can't imagine trying to conduct a conversation like this.
I'm a history professor. Trust me, this is pretty much the norm. Also, this channel rocks as a 3000 ilvl M+er myself. I consider that midcore casual, but then I remember that's also top 8% of all players.
Humans struggle with comprehending large number samplings. It's actually been studied!
@@SanketDesai1 cool perspective! Ya 3k is actually quite exclusive if you look at the stats!
that guy seems like the player that got cutting edge at the end of siege of orgrimmar and because of that he thinks hes the shit but nowadays he only times +6s because he "cant be bothered to deal with the community"
Seems like the kind of guy who got cut on an edge and got confused.
Interesting Data. But guys like that dont care about the data, like you said. He probably just watches pros play and thinks 2+ deaths is bad.
That's why I thought too at first.
Now I'm not sure. Sadly he won't be allowed to discuss this without data on this channel!
@@heythereguysitsMetro now what would be funny if they commented on this video about this XD
@@lancelottzimmerman6997 I'm sure he will. he has posted a block of text every day since the first comment. I told him about it in the other video. Maybe he will finally realize how stupid he looks after seeing this one, but I'm sure a comment is coming either way.
I think personally that the issue is not the death itself, but how punishing is the run back plus the deaths. In some dungeons like HOI prior to the save point after the frog boss it was an instant broken key even at a low level.
In S4 not pre-patch a 14 HOI would more than likely be bricked if you had a single wipe to the frog boss. The point im trying to make is that some total wipes or 5 deaths could cost depending on where you are in the dungeon. While in other dungeons or even in the same dungeons having 15 deaths but they were all random deaths will still result in a key upgrade.
TLDR is context matters a lot. I pugged a lot in S1-3 in DF to Hero mostly for the mount and honestly the mental breakdown and assumed fail is what hold most groups back. (my opinion)
Yup, and that is all going to be much much worse in TWW
Got curious by that persons comments so decided to browse raiderio and see what the top healers were doing before prepatch. Top healer has a timed AV 17 with 12 deaths. 16 AA w/ 8 deaths. 12 RLP w/ 12 deaths. 13 NO w/9 12++ HoI w/ 9, 14 BH w/ 16, 15 Nelth w/ 14, 14 Ulda w/ 7. All timed btw not depleted. Guess that person actually sucks though because good healers don't have more than 1 or 2.
@@mbailey314 haha great way to go about this.
Great vid as usual man, hope your life gets better soon.
thanks, its been a really rough 2 years but hoping this last weekend is the last of it now.
Deaths (its time subtraction from the key's timer) + recovery time, always have a certain impact on the key's timer for sure so, anything can be baptized as "normal" in an environment which has a clear design points and targets, one which Damage dealers, Healers, Tanks' DPS will vary, path taken and tacts/methods is the only thing that will create the relativity of what normal can mean from day to day, week to week, month to month etc etc.
The way the scaling works is, that, ideally, the higher you go, the more deaths matter against the timer UNLESS your overall DPS can already cover for that but even then, there's a cap your gear's ilvl will start hitting at some point, hard and harder as you go up on the difficulty key, which then, traditionally, flat values for tanking, healing and damage dealing alone, sometimes even if spells with percentages exist to compensate for any other insufficiency, simply are just not enough to time a key and you need to find other workarounds assuming they exist which also have a variable degree of risk and even then, once you exhaust that as well, that's that limit.
Top % design, the best will be proven by the results, the principle reflects reality (exceptions exist when Blizzard fucks up something with the tuning of course but i am not including these to this argument for the obvious reason). M+ is mostly not designed for pugging.
Healers for example are (or at least should be) the most aware people of this fact simply because of how limited our healing is intentionally, and specifically in terms of flat values, one look at our spells and we can tell what you can heal or not if you have enough experience.
If you, out there, someone, a random person, who is a tank, and you go and pull 3-5 packs and with each having 2-3 casters(especially important the higher the keys level is), and we have 5 interrupts with minimum 15 sec CD but the enemy start recasting after 4 secs of being cc'ed, (0 now in TWW), and you expect us to live through all casts which basically if not stopped, one-shots their target, you have a lot to learn.
gotcha
Almost timed a 14 nelth with 26 deaths today after the reset. Off by like 12 seconds. Mind you it was a group of friends and we were having fun regardless testing out some new stuff. Did find out that the chains appear to be broken and they never stun the mobs, you just die lol
@@theoriginalzinng hmm that's crazy. I'll be back today to test!
This is a great case-study in the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Your data is great and completely backs up your "opinions" (which I agree are not actually opinions, they're facts as far as your experience is concerned based on the data), I wish we had more of this and things like average deaths for a timed key were listed on Archon (Subcreation). Warcraftlogs might at least have completed key data sampling but voluntarily submitted data is still going to be skewed but its at least a reference point. I tried finding average deaths for keys in warcraftlogs and couldn't figure out how to do it. I couldn't find death statistics on Archon either. That would be useful data to bubble up for all key levels - what is the average number of deaths for a timed key? What's the range for each key level? Disband rate would be heavily underreported but we could at least get a lower bound.
@@typicalzergling9955 the game would be better if all that was easier to find accurately reported for sure.
Off topic, but same issue.
The feedback forums (in this case I'm referring to class forums and feedback threads) are full of people who very very very clearly DO NOT play the spec at any sort of competitive level or even come across as having played the spec before. I would unironically say a majority of posts in my class' feedback thread are made by people who show a blatant signs of not understanding the basics of the class. Aka, like you said, self proclaimed casuals.
I really don't know what to say, but it blows my mind and it's depressing that those are the people who blizz is actually listening to.
I'm not sure how often they read class discords or what and I know you don't necessarily think highly of the class discords, but some of the class feedback forums are just awful. The actual feedback from experienced players and people who play the spec are drowned out by all the arguing and self proclaimed casuals smearing the forum with general nonsense.
I say it's depressing because I want my spec to be fun and improved, but when I see blatant casuals or people who don't know the class giving feedback like it's been their main since birth i just don't know how to feel about the future of the game and in particular, my class.
Ya, its a GIGANTIC issue. Going to be published an update to this video where you will see even CLEARER how what this mentality is, and see the true nature of the origin of this feedback.
If what I show is similar for anyone on those forums, the game is in serious trouble.
With blizzard think of them more as "artists" than statisitcal analyists.
@@Cabersview no idea what you are trying to say here sorry.
did a 20 AV with 14 deaths and still timed. yes deaths are expected. yes most are avoidable. there are some deaths unavoidable. even with defensives up some adds can hit you for 2M. unless your in discord and coordinating your kicks ppl will die. its part of the game.
@@sparkz2718 ya, seems very normal no matter how high of a key you do. Have a followup coming on that today.
We have a real problem with context in my industry as well, the comments you highlighted are very similar to conversations I've either seen or been involved with myself.
Every single time what the commenter thinks *should* be reality, simply isn't and very often they're arguing as if they're an expert but they aren't.
It must be that they're either extremely dillusional or their version of success is very far removed from ours.
Ya, and idk how its gotten to this point. I'm publishing an update on this video tomorrow where things get even crazier from this person on this topic and really go to show just how out-there people are and how much they lack the ability to give an actual opinion vs discuss facts on a topic.
As of right now, two weeks before launch this season will be very rough for pugging. Even the better known dungeons on beta (10-12 range) are very tight in timers without many deaths. Some of the new dungeons are just a shitshow of bugs and overturned mechanics. The season will for most people probably be a bunch of +10 necrotic wakes per week and then call it. All the other keys are either made worse now or are bad designed. Sure some bosses are pretty cool but a lot of times it’s mechanics overload. 5 aoe abilites, dispels and healchecks overlapping each other.
I don’t understand why they won’t wait with timer changes until a few weeks into the season. Blizzard is getting their data from 2 sources: average players doing low keys and really good players doing high keys (with meta speccs). How they can derive those timer changes from this data is a mystery for me. Even if they add timer back later it will make a bunch of players quit the game because m+ is going to be a disaster. Especially combined with the death change. It’s such a feast or famine situation. If you have a group with above average players who also die less the timers will be fine to a certain lvl. From my estimation on beta if you wipe once (not even counting some absurd run backs) the key is basically over in some dungeons.
Grim batol is the worst offender in this regard. If you wipe right before or on the second boss you can leave the dungeon and go again (speaking of 10+ keys).
As said before, my biggest problem is not not timing the key. It’s the fact that in a non pug situation you are forced to waste so much time reupgrading your keys. And even in pugs, if you are not playing a meta class and spend hours in que to deplete a key on a first pull in a dungeon it’s just a terrible experience.
I think just in general they do not want to remove time from a timer during a season. So they are likely starting it harder than maybe is needed and will loosen it up down the road.
This double dips into a win for them and people will praise them for making things easier without remembering this change first.
I would be interested in stats in regard of FOTM-player. Are they more likely to leave a dungeon first, or the cause of a disband? Since this would be an insane amount of work to check every footage for this, i'd be happy to hear your opinion about it.
@@leautrec6492 ya I had wanted to take a look at that specifically but never got around to it. Clearly fotm players are a problem but how much is the question.
I like your videos, and I think you're valid. I haven't looked over the data yet, though. Here's how i know you're valid without looking at the data. You show that you care in your videos, which by default gives you value. Your tone is correct when discussing whatever topic you are on, so I will listen to you instead of arguing with you. Anyway, keep up the good work! I hope blizz knows your value ❤
Edit: I think =roundup() might help your 8.8 turn into a 9.0? It works in excel not sure about Google docs
Thanks for saying all that. Means a lot.
You have more patience than I do, I couldn't argue with his reasoning.
Haha I love stuff like this!
I haven’t run any M+ in S4, as Remix started, and my wow mates were kind of absent. However, I am a long-term casual player, and enjoy more difficult aspects of the game such as M+. I have a regular couple of guys I run them with, and we typically pug the other two: either both DPS, or DPS/Healer. We make it clear what our expectations are for the run: timing or just a clear. We called ourselves the 1-second crew, as that’s how close we get to the timer sometimes! We aren’t fussed about deaths, or wipes. We see them as learning moments and simply try to enjoy the experience and improve. I (DK Tank - Genesimmons, whisperwind) have pugged a few lower level M+ when I was geared, as they were survivable as last man standing. I even helped out some of those in chat who were begging for help in chat with a M/M2. However, I never pugged anything higher than a 9 because people simply quit, and that was S3! Anyhow, I’m drivelling on. Love the content, keep it coming, and looking forward to TWW M+.
Thanks a lot! You have a good outlook on it all for sure. All mistakes are a learning opportunity, in both games and IRL.
The people running away from them in game, with no real consequences, are just setting themself up for more failure elsewhere.
Sounds like you just had a wonderful conversation with a stoner wow player.
Sadly, I don't think so. Seems like a young person honestly.
The amount of keys I timed with ridiculously high deaths is crazy…. I have to admit, it feels kinda wrong to upgrade keys above 11 with more than 20 deaths, and I like SOME change to the time punishement, but 15 sec can be too rough… IDK will see
Ya we will have to see how it plays out. Certainly sounds too high.
I think it's the combination of the new death penalty with the reduced timers. If it was one or the other it would be fine, but we are getting both.
Most of the time, there's no point in arguing with people who are not willing to consider why they might not be understanding (or just misunderstanding) something, you are only wearing yourself out for no good reason.
Luckily, most of them will likely make it quite clear from how they form their argument(s), as to why it's not a good idea to try to have a productive discussion with them.
Maybe one day they might be ready but ain't nobody be setting a calendar for, let's say a meeting, 30 years from now (figure of speech) for something which will also likely be irrelevant anyway.
If they want to learn, they might.
Well there will be an update on this topic coming in a video Friday. So stay tuned to that, because that video will certainly end all this.
I see what you mean, but after that, we know everything there is to know about the discussion and there is no more way to hide from it.
They have no choice BUT to admit they are wrong and learn from that. Or just hide from it and pretend like they never saw it.
Guy should have done that in the first place, it seems.
terminally online people are cringe. im sure he just leaves on wipe.
@@AerEllyn you are right. It's hard to tell if he is a leaver though. It sounds like he is saying he doesn't ever even have wipes because of how skilled he is.
I got 2 healers to 3k pugging, 10 death average is absolutely normal. I remember this one Atal run. We had zero deaths the entire dungeon in this pug until we got to the last boss. We proceeded to wipe 3 times on Yazma and barely killed it. Zero deaths went to 15 on one boss.
Haha ya atal was certainly the poster child for this information.
I like the info always find it neat.
Personally played super causal this season and basically only had like a 5-10% leave problem and maybe 5-8 deaths on average but I'm only in 8-10 keys. Since I main a tank I can pretty easily solo 30-50% of a boss which I find is generally what blocks a pug and causes people to leave. With the changes to war with in I think this is going to cause me to not be able to hard carry bosses and will likely lead to a ton more frustration and causing me to just not play this season but we shell see.
To be fair tanks surviving on their own for a large portion of a fight is just ridiculous. Everyone feels like a blood dk nowadays.
@@Shadowxjen Completely agree on prog level keys but kind of don't on lower stuff. Like up to vault cap since I feel like that makes the pug world a lot more forgiving. Don't want an 80% disband rate like some people =p
I doubt you wont play. It will just be harder. Not impossible.
Super off-topic, but it's kinda crazy how much I've learned about debating someone online about anything, wow or not from all your videos, Metro. I have the source, this isn't fact, prove me wrong. It's not a take if you have fact and proof to support it. Great vid Metro.
Thanks! I have been involved in things like this since I was a kid so I have learned a lot about how best to have them publicly.
That guy ultimately just didn't understand the thing he was reacting to at all, and that is the foundation for making yourself look really silly.
Good video.
Thanks.
I feel like these segments are becoming my favorite content. You have a knack for addressing community BS without becoming a keyboard warrior about it. I appreciate your takes and your objective calm reasons.
Thanks, glad to hear that. There are a lot of them in the community discussion playlist too. Been doing this as far back as I can remember haha
While 10 deaths is normal, on a 10+ key level i agree that it shouldn't be. 18-20 keys are being done in DF with 15-20 deaths. And its just insane. But its just a balancing issue. It means the timer is not an issue in terms of dps, and we could do a whole half a dungeon if we played perfectly, its the dmg output of bosses/trashes that limit our timers
I personally vastly prefer it this way. Sadly the community doesn't seem to understand the leniency anyway, so I guess at the end of the day, if they are going to leave over one death, it might as well be because it actually matters.
@@heythereguysitsMetro yeah i understand while it can create a more toxic environment, but at the same time it creates a bigger skill check at lvl 12-13. Hopefully we'll see less ppl not knowing what are the mechanichs at 15-16 this way. We prolly had the easiest M+ season in my opinion in S4. I dont think everybody should be able to do 15-16s or hell anything above 10.
@@Neugo_play Season 3 was even easier, which is crazy.
As a mythic 3k+ io healer I find this a lot with 2.5k and lower players. The best part is when you try to explain some of the reasons on those missed mechanics (in a helpful non rude way) they just add you to their ignore list right before leaving with a "HAHAHAHAHA you bad heal" comment. I'd love to help teach and improve their game play by talking to them in discord but they simply won't. Honestly, all of us screw up from time to time but when you don't self reflect on what went wrong you'll never improve whatsoever.
Yup that's the biggest issue with the game for sure.
Hello, i feel like my insight is on your level of thinking. I am a new healer in DF not new player to wow. The one shots in DF were crazy and alot of times you couldnt avoid them. However, since playing in the beta the healing needed is almost x2/x3 in some cases. I could be doing 600k hps and barely keep up. It shows how bad some people are. I have only finished one dungeon. This could be due to tuning and our ilvl as well. If you want a very casual view you can message me and can go deeper. fyi love your content and hot takes, what the wow scene needs lol
Thanks, trying to do my part. The community needs more of it! if you feel like you have perspective to offer, find the best avenue for you and shout it loudly.
I think you just have to be a magnet for this I have never had a toxic key but I also make sure I'm 1st dps so now one can say anything
@@updownanarchy5796 magnet for what? This is not a discussion about toxicity.
He accused you of being a lolcow because he had no other way of figuring out how you were wrong on a topic he clearly knows everything about.
It’s not the system with a problem it’s my HEALERS.
This is why I subscribe because even in this guys bad faith attempt of discrediting your “opinion” you provided him the means to argue his point but he’d rather call names and blame healers.
Ha ya its pretty nuts right. He literally could just USE THE SPREADSHEET to make his point.
I think you are really spot on with that first comment though.
He has no idea how wrong he is, and because I disagree with what he thinks is right, I must be something below him.
Interesting video you made, the case you're discussing is likely exemplary of so many problems not just in WoW, but in a lot of gaming communities and most likely life in general. I'm guessing this falls under the ever so famous "Dunning-Kruger" effect (though apparently that has been misunderstood as well, I'm not sure).
I think one thing that often gets overlooked when it comes to m+: It's highly likely that what's true for mythic raiding is also true for m+: Only a VERY small percentage of players are actually doing keys in the level you are doing in your streams. Sadly, there isn't much data for that, but I remember during WoD Blizzard once communicated that less than 5 % of all players had a character that even had ONE achievement for a mythic boss kill in Highmaul. Which is a CRAZY small amount.
IF - and again, I don't have data and I'm not sure it's available at all - m+ would work in a similar way, that puts a lot of issues into perspective. People are watching streams of people who are doing keys in the 15 and higher range and assume that these are examples of how "good" players are playing this game. But the reality most likely is that these players are absolute outliers in the grand scheme of things. Even if you regularly beat the timer in a +13 during S3 or S4 of Dragonflight, you are likely an absolute outlier compared to the average wow player.
I'm rambling here, the point I'm trying to make (and I'm very aware that I'm guilty of absolute feelycrafting here and that I have no evidence): People like the guy in your comment section most likely have a WILDLY skewed and absolutely wrong impression as to how the "average" m+ key works, how the average wow player does m+ and just how wildly unusual most streamers/content creators are that put out content showcasing keys in a range most players will NEVER see.
Well said all around. That was the strangest part of it all. He is saying the keys I'm doing are low, when I'm well within a 1 percentile of all players as a totally non meta tank with only pug keys ran haha.
Well the actual strangest part was when he said "I'm not big into M+" but we can ignore that part.
Tbh i think the ''normal death counter'' depends on the comp, a comp with a mm hunter + enchance sham + dev evoker will prob have a higher death counter cause those are squishy classes with few defensives.
When you start to see high tank death counter or a dps dk/palladin that dies too much, thats prob just skill issue.
Well sure, but this isn't a sample study. Its just general statistical analysis.
One take that I have here is that whenever I do something above 10 I don't care about the upgrade as much just overall performance of the group. In other words I just want for it to be a blast (not in the DPS terms but in execution). What I mean by this is that I'd rather enjoy not timing a key with low geared players who perform mechanics and die less, than time a key with 20+ deaths. I'd just feel mad for timing it. What my friend says: "I want to overcome the dungeon, not the incompetence of players".
My reward is time well spent rather than some arbitrary rating increase,
And I am aware that it's possibly too much to ask from pugs. But I take my time in picking players whenever I host. Or I observe how others from the group before I commit.
Well you are welcome to prioritize whatever you like. As long as you respect the time and interest of the other players you are playing alongside.
If you make it clear that in your key, the only thing that matters to you is not having a lot of deaths AHEAD of upgrading keys, than they are beholden to that.
But if you are just leaving keys that are upgrades because of a few deaths, you need to stop pugging. That is not okay.
Maxim just put out a video where he is being interviewed by somebody about “How Liquid works”. In that video he goes over the players that they have, toxicity and how it doesn’t exist at his level. When people mess up they don’t blame others and claim to be the best because those players cannot succeed. This troll that you are feeding here is clearly a wanna be top 1% and is the type of person that leaves a key after the first death, honestly not worth time or effort. If he wants to deny your statistics fine, if he wants to deny what a top level guild leader is saying, fine. Eventually this person will learn to realize that it isn’t everybody else that is wrong and they would probably have more friends if they eased up a bit.
@@NerdrageHockey right, I'm fast tracking the "eventually" part of your comment haha.
Ignorance is a waste of time and I will do what I can to stomp it out.
I think honestly the average deaths in season 4 might even be lower than they were in season 3. Thinking back i think i had a good amount of upgraded 24s-25s with more than 20 deaths on the counter. Fortified Fall was a big one for example. In pugs it was completely normal to rack up like 8 deaths in the second boss area alone. Unfortunately since i skipped season 4 i cant really judge it for myself, but i have more than 300 dungeons to look at in your library so i dont really understand how someone can not see the Problem there.
Ya timers were even more lenient back then too tbh. There was really only throne and rise that were tight at all.
If the death average of keys being so high for some dungeons but not others do you think that the damage is too high or the timer is too lenient in the higher death count dungeons
I think algethar is simply an outlier in how little group wide damage there is. The only places you'd ever die is bosses, and people are more apt to give up on bosses.
Truthfully this is way too small of a sample size to go off, but its the best I can do with everything going on right now.
Math, statistics, and evidence are always arguable in the minds of simple people.
It depends on the situation. A good example is when people try to apply sims to reality in Mythic+ pugging.
A bad example is when you say its not normal to have more than 3 deaths, when I literally have proof it is haha
@@heythereguysitsMetro Statistics are generalizable to the population. They are a good measure or predictor of outcomes but not an explicit indicator of future events or phenomenon.
I'm personally a fan of you needing to play a pretty clean run to time. If you're dying 10+ times and timing something to me that just means your brute forcing it and the timer wasn't strict enough in the first place. It seems clear that Blizzard is trying to cut down on brute forcing keys by design, both with the penalty increase and the shortened timers.
The end result will just be that the pug community will settle in at completing lower key levels and that's perfectly fine. The upgrades stop at +10 anyway
How do you think a lot of pugs, low level groups work?
I'm not, but I can see why people are. I think everyone THINKS its better, but its also going to lead to WAY more disbands. So you'll be doing lower keys simply because people keep leaving, not because you can't actually do higher.
i feel this is going to get worse in the war within because i feel alot of people dont understand this and class changes are bad across the board
What makes you think "class changes are bad across the board?"
This man is coming in with receipts
haha too many people just throw them away!
From what I can tell is they are trying to move the whole Mythic+ space away from casuals (PUGS), which is really unfortunate. I am mostly pugging and I see these changes as a really bad thing. For how it currently is, I have no problems with seeing "bad" players do +10. For the more hardcore you have a good range from 10 onward.
Judging from all the changes in the next season it is going to be hard to get a +11 or +12 as a pug group.
One of my friends had a good time playing in the 0-13 range in the previous ranking. Now he finds the +2 or +3 just too hard and basically doesn't play M+ anymore.
Don't forget pugs aren't just for casuals! It's a totally different bracket of gameplay all together and it can be done both casually and seriously.
I think an important distinction is the difference between full wipes and random deaths through the key that don't result in a full wipe. Something like 15 deaths through a key vs 3 full wipes can be the difference between timing a 15 death key and not.
Well there is no real way to make that distinction given this already small sample, but I agree with you.
This got brought up for the conversation about timers being tighter, and you losing 15 seconds per death though.
So from Blizzard's perspective, they are all equal.
Hey man, I hope you're doing ok.
I actually do think that the community, or at least the vocal minority, are what is going to be the death of the game if Blizzard keeps listening to them. I don't think it particularly matters on "how many" deaths you have and can still upgrade a key, what really matters is how quick you recover from a wipe (which is why the RLP might have upgraded with 26 deaths) and how well you interact and play with the other people in the group (for example, 20 deaths with quick recovery times could be less impactful of the timer than 10 deaths and a slow recovery time).
I actually think that the system as it stands is pretty good at the curve when it comes to 'deaths per run' as normally in world first and top keys you can't have a death due to the scaling difficulty, where as lower as you go the timers become easier to recover from, which I think is actually a good thing. I personally think that if they make ALL mythic+ keys require no deaths or it's a deplete will basically kill pugging and probably kill the mode because if it's not accessible for the average player then they'll get disengaged and unsub, and this is bad for both the game and Blizzard's bottom line. The scaling difficulty already solves this issue that the commenter mentioned and making deaths more punishing will just further alienate the player base, it might be different if keys didn't go down in level, but this would make it unbearable.
Sources: I don't pug a lot but I do casual keys with my friend group with the occasional pug or 2 and we're by no means world first players, but we're a group a guys and gals that just enjoy spending time together doing keys and this is something that would probably turn us off the game as M+ is the main reason we stay subbed. We manage to get up to 15 - 20 in the previous iteration and currently go up to 10's in this iteration this season, which we're mostly happy with.
Agreed with all of that tbh. I would say that even for the top players keys allow for quite a few deaths.
But ya either way I agree that this will alienate a lot of players and will cause a lot of frustration early.
Earlier this week I timed a 15 Nokhud on my BDK with 18 deaths, and that wasn't even a pug, it was people I play with almost every day, Fortified is rough sometimes with a lot of trash deaths. I wonder what % of keys with more than 10 deaths are Fortified vs Tyrannical.
@@DaveStarfire hmmm damn now I want to go check out the difference. It's GOTTA be overwhelmingly high for fortified though. Because deaths on tyran usually means boss wipes.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Exactly my thoughts. I copied your spreadsheet and checked, of the keys listed with more than 10 deaths, 17 were Fortified, 11 were Tyrannical, 28 Total. Which does lean toward Fortified, but interestingly not as much as I thought it would.
@@DaveStarfire Hmm ya I'm surprised!
Thank you for your work. It so sad that people do not consider the average player. But sometimes in the game if got the feeling that players judge harsh and fast because they do consider themselves perfect. They think they know the dungeon, their class and what some famous you tube player did. The idea for this kind of perfect is cultivated on youtube. The tolerance for anything beside that is really close to zero with some players. The Iron is that espacially this kind of players are not able to perform when things go wild. But to do things different to suit the actual needs of the group or to overcome mistakes is the pug way for me. It is funny because for me a good player is willing and able to adapt to a little normal pug chaos. In the end it was always the most rewarding moment to actually upgrade a key with a lot of deaths, mistakes and all.
I totally agree with everything you said. A key you battle is far more rewarding.
And influencer culture has made a serious crater out of some discussions in the game's landscape.
I try to do my part, but in truth I am not immune to it either.
Hey metro, for fun i checked my runs for fun as i am a low levwl player higest i do is 10😂 however death count on 7-10 was approx 9.5 per timed run total of only 20 runs though but still funny to check back on my runs🤪
Ya, so even at that level its normal.
I thought we were gonna see long timers in the further attempt of blizzard to make the 1 thru 10 keys being a progression. Where in season 4 you would get one shot by a lot of avoidable damage in +2 meaning in this up coming season 1 yes new players will die in +2 but guess what u have this insanely long timer. So that u can make those mistakes and as long as your group can kill the content you would have a good chance and upgrading. Then by the time these players progress to +7 deaths are more important and those last 3 key levels takes good play and the proper output. I wonder if them really only getting Data in the beta at +10 being tested will bite them in the future. i think it will be a rough start for season 1
Ya that's a great point. Tbh timers will still always be lenient in a low key. But you would think they would want them to be lenient even further so people don't feel like they can't learn in the lower keys.
There was a 20 or 30 death world first key in either s1 or s2 before aug hit, crazy example on how deaths can play a very low impact on success but these deaths were all at point where they didn’t loose a lot of time for it. Like no Boss wipe etc, but that begs the question why would you be allowed to die this much and still upgrade a key only the top % of the top m+ players ever see (less then 0.1%). Ofc blizz fixed that timer later on. Sadly can’t find the video, mustve been on naowhs deleted channel. Probably hard for blizzard to correctly tune the keylvls so this doesn’t happen but people can die 20 times in a weekly or lower and still upgrade.
Right, no matter what they change, it will always be true at some level.
I think people just need to get over the idea that deaths are a bad thing.
I think this guy who commented is privileged at running keys in a total premade.
Because in those scenarios, yeah he is right about the death count.
The death count is usually not surpassing 5, not in my group anyways.
But for a pug environment i can see 15 being normal.
Ok so he definitely went mental after a while and he doesn't seem to understand the definition of the word "Normal".
Normal is what the majority does.. quite simple to understand imo.
And the majority is pugging so 15 deaths could very well be a normal average.
Maybe. I don't know if any logic can be applied to be honest. But maybe.
@@heythereguysitsMetro haha yeah XD
I hope life gets better for ya soon! :)
Me too tbh. Can't take much more of this.
Actually incredible that this guy wrote a bible of a statement just to call players that are doing keys he will never enter "shitters" and to brag about healing +5s with 1 to 2 deaths. I'm so beyond confused on what is going through these people's head. Also, it is very hilarious how he contradicts himself when he says "Literally who cares" when he brought up the conversation in the first place.
Ya just a bunch of really weird stuff being said. Hopefully he learns something from this, because its such a waste of time.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah, very weird and confusing, but maybe he is trying to rage bait, because there is no way he takes himself seriously with that statement. Who knows at this point.
@@her0268 I thought that too but him quoting me like that takes a lot more effort than your normal post.
Dude is just obsessively wrong.
I watched Growl video a couple of days ago about timer changes. He thinks that Blizzard wants to make ppl do smaller keys and do them cleaner with this change. Im not gonna lie, you can find some positive things here, like making pool of keys that are puggable smaller so there is more ppl in this range of keys, but i think IF its blizzard's goal its just gonna make overall expirience worse, like increasiang number of disbands, making progression harder, so more ppl would just quit because they feel like they stuck and just more pug unfriendly eco-system. I'm not gonna lie, im not really a good player, i got a bit more then 3.1k playing meta class in s3, but because keys were very timeable i did them a lot. On main char, on alt char etc. I probably did more keys in s3 then all other df season combined.
@@vermil4894 oh ya, he is right and that's absolutely what they want. But sadly it hugely impacts pugging.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah when I look at the timer changes all I'm reminded of is launch Wildstar.
The timers (and objectives) were tight enough there that if a death or two happened you'd lose your 'gold star.' And what that resulted in was people immediately abandoning at the very first sign of failure. It didn't actually help increase the playerbase, it just churned them off of the content because nobody wanted to waste time on a 30 minute failure. I think it actually is a HUGE reason for the rapid decline in that game's population, too because gold stars were needed for attunement. Almost nobody I know except my pretty hardcore friends even played Wildstar raiding as a result.
@@CAPSLOCKING Ya that game had a big issue with philosphy and understanding what people actually wanted vs who wanted it. They were appealing to a crowd of people who ever never going to quit wow, AND to casuals like this moron who think they are impressive when they are just confused.
Losing formula there to say the least.
On a serious note, I believe that this guys has not played since Season 3 and is not aware of the changes for Season 4.
So, he is commenting from the perspective that he did +10-15 keys in S3 and believes you are playing on the same level and feels his opinion and experience is just as relevant.
I think that would explain a lot of the things he wrote.
Ahh ya know what, you are probably right on that. That's gotta be it honestly. Good catch, as always.
algathar is the most fun, most played dungeon so either people are better at it from playing it more, or play it more because its easier?
I think its just the dungeon with the easiest trash. Still has hard bosses, but if you wipe on those you usually don't finish.
@@heythereguysitsMetro Yeah true actually, Vexamus is one of the harder bosses this season, and even Overgrown Ancient is fairly punishing. A lot like Mists of TS in a lot of ways, which I personally love that place
I can't agree harder with your POV. Pugging is hell, specially if you don't Mythic Raid and Blizz just cares of what some weirdo in the forum post saying its unfair that Mythic Raiding could be replaceable for a M+ and cry rivers about it, when in reality they dont even clear H (which most people who cares even a bit for M+ do week 1 and mostly first few days). I just hate how crest cap fucks on M+ while letting M raiding get away with it.
I know this topic is not related but I just wanted to point out how fucked the game is where people who dont even know what they are asking for are heared. Blizzard should actually read the story of the data instead of taking AI based decisions filtered by common word results.
Its a huge issue for real. A lot of people asking for stuff they haven't fully thought out.
I have pugged almost this entire expansion and I’ve seen no shortage of people projecting their own insecurities on others. Most of the time it’s funny, but it gets tiresome after a while. If you time the dungeon, it’s a win as far as I’m concerned.
@@joek2978 that should be a universal thing surely. But there is even one guy in this very comment section saying an upgraded key is not enough lol
How many AV deaths are jump skips and someone jumped without using a parasol/slow fall/immunity and dying?
Also, RLP timer was so forgiving. Could have clipped 2 mins off it's timer and added it to Neltharus.
Also, healers don't carry high keys. You either live or die in 1 global so it doesn't even matter. This dudes take is somebody who just does their weekly 8 for vault and is afk most of the time. The DF timers were pretty generous outside of Neltharus(in my experience.) and it was normal to time keys with a lot of deaths. Not sure why this person thinks 14s were low keys. Before pre-patch, 14 and 15s were still top 1% of rating. I think 3200 rating was top 1% before pre patch. It's been inflated since because of how easy the prepatch keys have beem.
Lastly, what does CE or Mythic Raiding have to do with M+? There are a lot of raiders that don't M+ who are very good players, and lots of M+ people that don't raid and are also very good players.
@@mbailey314 ya he admits to this too which is wild.
Also in terms of AV that's a great point. Seems like some one always dies in very key to falling.
That would be a good thing to check out using the sheet if you want!
I think your right to a degree but I also think the truth is somewhere in the middle of you point at least in terms of Dragonflight. I do agree pugging SUCKS cause my friend and I do keys together but we find 3 others who we have ZERO clue about ( cept IO score ) and it is a mixed bag no doubt. I think you could be right about War dungeons and pugs since the tuning is all over the place and it will require kicks galore and anyone who pugs knows that skill can be totally foreign to some pug players at times. I respect your opinion and I might not totally agree on all your points but that is life. I wish you and your channel the best and I found you cause I am a new tank ( starting w/ Druid ) but found you cause I want to be a Blood DK after I get more experience in tanking. Please keep up the content and again hope your keys in War are better then you expect cause if you are right I might be a tank for a few weeks before i throw in the towel - LOL -- not really but pugs can test one's patience.
@@trevorwilliams2482 I feel ya! Thanks for saying all that. If you have any questions about tank stuff lemme know!
Look, I enjoy a nice argument from time to time with Oneazeroth myself. But this guys comment was absurd to the max.
And his last remark sounded like BIden was in the conversation. He can't see the healers LMAOO well that would explain allot about him.
I do agree TWW is looking to have quite a rough start IMO. I think there would be nerfing inbound whatever the form.
what I do know is it's going to be a very interesting launch. I think delves are awesome, those will do well. And the world content is just..there really.
The new dungeons? They're cool.
haha
I don't know what it is but people have gotten this mentally that if you have 10 deaths then it's not timeable. I remember in Season 3 Naowh and his group timed a +28 Throne of the Tides (i think it was tyrannical but i'm not sure) with close to 20 deaths. Might just be like 10 seconds left but my point still stands.
It's ridicilous that just because you get a couple of deaths here and there then people think it's not timeable. This is one of the reasons i prefer my premade groups over pug groups.
No hate to pug groups but imo they tend to do this way more than premade groups.
@@Laptican oh ya they absolutely do. We showed this a lot in season two, when a priest left a key with factually enough time left but he was sure he was right. I think that's the biggest issue here. People would rather be right and not try than be wrong and have a chance at success.
It's meant to be competitive content but these people playing don't know the first thing about competitive mindsets.
The first thing you learn is, it ain't over until it's over.
I like how you say that. It's a bunch of people playing competitive content who don't have a competitive mindset. That's so true. It seems like most people actually play for ego, and not to actually improve.
A real life example I can think of is people that get really fit and attractive but only to play the opposite sex, not because they actually wanted to improve themselves.
@@XAn0nymousX0 Good example there. There are a lot of people like that IRL too. The way I always tell people who think they are serious is, go watch ANY sport's interviews and you will NEVER see a single person ever throw another teammate under the bus or brag about giving up early.
Its utterly antithetical to success, and people do it fucking DAILY in wow.
Am i the only one that thinks its kinda satisfying when a group sticks through a shitton of deaths, only to NOT disband and actually complete the key in the end?
Oh absolutely its an amazing feeling.
Its always something that gets a lot of comments on the stream too.
Also, this video has got me kind of interested in creating an add-on that can do these spreadsheet reports for you.
I think its possible to create an add-on that can output death counters, full wipe counters, time remaining at the end of a run, average amount of defensives across the group comp, healer overall HPS, and so on, into an excel spreadsheet that you can then do analysis on at a later date.
@@hjaltejohnsen4056 if you do let me know! The biggest issue I have been told is that there is no API for keys that don't finish. So it makes it hard to do automatically. If the death thing goes huge I'll just input that in the sheet manually too, not really any extra work.
Great response video.
Thanks!
I bet you this guy in the comments making all the noise is the actual carry. I find players like this that say someone is trash is really outing themselves. As for 10 death average thats about what ive seen as a pugger myself.
Oh 100 percent the carry. He basically admits it lol
Guy must be trolling. The doubling down is painful. Replying to legitimate arguments by basically saying "nuh uh.". So either super wild takes that border on trollbaiting (looking at "most top players are bad") or paragraphs of basically nothing (The "I have taken a look and most of what you say is nonsense" part). We have a saying here in germany that would basically go like "Lots of talking, but nothing was said.". I feel like that sums it up quite well.
Yes that's the perfect summary of it tbh.
The guy is obviously wrong and you have the proof, but there is an error with how you did this. The selection bias you used is upgraded keys, then checked deaths. You compensated somewhat doing it by dungeon, but your % success would be relevant because a really easy dungeon would have fewer deaths because it is easy, and a hard dungeon would have fewer because the deaths would cause it to fail. Again, in spite of this I think you prove your point that the key isn't bricked and the off the top of your head number you used was pretty accurate.
Ya I'm not really very good at statistical analysis. I see what you are saying, was just thinking that ONLY the deaths matter because a key is not always easy for just damage intake or something.
Like everyone agrees Algethar is harder than Azure Vault, but Azure Vault has way higher death average, etc.
But ya, at the end of the day, the data is there for public use!
I think your death number is inflated by good resto druids being killed by your routes.
Hahaha
Yeah lol the wow community in general is a great representation for the Dunning Krueger effect :P
"Shit players will die to avoidable mechanics" and so will good players from time to time his point here is literally moot. I swear 80% of the player base just watches MDI/TGP and forms their opinions based on that while blatantly ignoring any mistakes the pros make in their keys/runs from time to time. I watch a lot of Naowh and Gingi streams and their live keys often have average of 6+ deaths with push keys sometimes going above. People forget deaths aren't everything, it's more about when you die and how many die at ones than about overall deaths in the key.
"Half the players in Mythic CE guilds even up to WR 600 or so are bad players" I'd really like to see the data he's pulling from there. Or is he just throwing out random assumptions with no actual info to back it up? Also "bad" is a relative term, if they're good enough to clear Mythic raid they're definitely not a "bad player".
Ya, just pulling random nonsense basically. Obviously anyone who says a top 600 world guild is "bad" is just being hyperbolic or lacks intelligence. Hard to tell which is true with this guy tbh.
@@heythereguysitsMetro probably both are true tbh
So many of your opinions are about pugging higher keys. I'm not sure where you expect bleeding edge pugging to be. I think it's clear blizzard thinks high keys are 10s since that's the ceiling of rewards. If you are talking about the fact that's it's not good to have tight timers and low error rates for 12s 13s or 14s especially in a pug, I just don't understand it.
@@jgn1977 just comparing it to the last 8 years is all. If you haven't been around for too long I can see why it would be confusing. Pugging looks like it's just a worse version of pushing but in truth it's very different with different things to think about. So that's what we discuss.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I was there for the start of dragon flight in season 1 and people weren't really pugging 22s 23s and 24s. Maybe at the end of the season but not at the start and certainly not in the beta.
@@jgn1977 And what?
The comment reads like alot of the other casual viewers/trolls of your channel. Seems like many think the review keys you do are your keys lol. Good video sir, I agree with your analysis as a fellow pugger ^,^
Hmm ya maybe that's it. I REALLY worry if that's actually it though man. Like its SOOO fucking obvious that its not my key that I'm reviewing lol...
They think I change my UI every other day?
Deaths happen, double digits is pretty normal tbh, ive upgraded 17s this season with damn near 20 deaths. Now if it was 15 sec a death prolly wouldnt of upgraded it 20 deaths = 5minutes if im right with the math. Deaths are gunna feel pretty bad at start of the season for sure idk what this guy is ranting about tbh, unless youre doing like a 3.. deaths happen 95% of the time. Only thing i can think of is he is saying next xpack those keys wont be upgrades but idk.. deaths happen .. kicks get missed people stand in things its w/e.
@@faxxie9964 yup very normal. Not sure how anyone who pugs could think otherwise!
Blizzard would be wise to not cave to the neck beard mytic + crowd wants. We know how this plays out, this is what happened to raiding. Seeing how popular Mythic+ got, it would be wise to learn from the past. If they cave, get ready for 50 addons to do one dungeon
@@jdr1767 well that's the problem we are showing off here. They are listening to people SPEAKING like "neck beards" while admitting they are casuals. The problems run deep here man. Because the casuals are so stuck in this culture that they aren't able to just stay in their lane and have fun anymore.
keys 14 and higher is interesting. Before I saw your methodology, I was hoping for a graph, with lines for difficulties like "2-9", "10-15", "16+" as four different lines on a graph measuring deaths/week. (If you include DF S4, obviously the first line falls away and you can just pretend the other two are 10 numbers lower, to see how they compare). But it seems the stats page doesn't actually include deaths per run, did you have to check every video manually to get them? I could probably make that graph if you already have the number of deaths written down somewhere.
Ya, I had to manually check every video. its not really something I intend to support moving forward, but might be worth checking out again come TWW given the changes. If you are around after that time, I'd be happy to talk more about how best to implement this!
@@heythereguysitsMetro Since you're already so thorough, possibly just add a "deaths" category for each run too going forward? That would already enable a lot of the fun interactions and simplify your work if you wanted to do this exact analysis you did in this video again in the future.
I'm personally most interested in the thesis "low keys are harder than high keys", which would need to be observed over several seasons since launch season basically doesn't count for this.
@@birds-and-bones ya that's what I would do, in terms of deaths. I wouldn't be able to comment much on the high vs low thing, but that's just a talking point we use to show how different low keys can be from high and how the difficulty is different too.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I haven't followed your career for years, but I think when you play lower keys (outside of early S1), it's often with non-tanks, which is also a confounding factor for success rates.
(digression inspired by previous paragraph:) I also main BDK, but my Prot warrior has similar experiences as her - while as heal/aug evoker, it's completely different. I imagine you have many similar anecdotes. As a tank with many years of experience, no matter what class, you have more control over situations. Socially too, people tend to listen if I ask people to not stress or fight, things will be fine and doable.
This usually doesn't work if you're any other role. People want to listen to the Authority, and they demand it come from the guy with the shield. No matter if that player doesn't want to hold the reigns.
@@birds-and-bones I think you are just overthinking it. The times I state "low keys are harder" I'm just commenting on how different the difficulty is. Its not the same as this, where I have stats to back up that statement or anything.
Just more of a funny way to explain the totally different situations that cause difficulty in low keys that never happen in high keys, like people letting patrols sneak up on them, or not kicking a single spell in a dangerous pack.
Stuff that good players do well, making the keys look easy. And when bad players don't do it well, it makes low keys look impossible.
Honestly, that guy most likely was just one of the people who got cracked and made a fool of on your stream. Like the weird Shaman who lost his mind too
That was at best a deliberate troll bait post, and trying to understand those folks logically is impossible because their ravings are completely illogical
I would agree if he didn't keep trying to argue. I think its just some one lost in the internet culture and not really ready for actual intellectual discussion about things.
u have to consider that ur pool of deaths that ur referencing has you as the tank in the majority. hope this helps
In what world would you think I have not considered that all the runs on my sheet are not including me as the tank?
@@heythereguysitsMetro huh? im assuming u are the tank for the majority in these insanely high death runs. u dont use voice comms and ur tank gameplay is borderline griefing 90% of the time for the rest of ur party.
@@mycaravanwasrobbed-vp9he That doesn’t change the fact that keys are timeable with many deaths. Timers were very generous in DF, as long as you could survive you could time.
@@mycaravanwasrobbed-vp9he in what way is it greifing lol. Can't wait to hear this.
@@heythereguysitsMetro well lets put it like this, the overwhelming majority of keys u are playing the tank, a role in which has the greatest impact on death count overall. You are the common denominator for these keys, hence the high death counts. If you played dps instead i can say without a shadow of a doubt in my mind that there would be less deaths overall on ur sheet, as the dps role while it does have some impact on the count - its a role that is objectively least impactful on the overall death meter.
You had me cracking 😂😅
Hope you got some glue!
Alexensual is a wow lolcow. Hopefully that says enough
Not really, no. Can you define what you mean when you say the word?
Probably shouldnt be timing your keys with 16 deaths, def shouldnt be timing your keys with 24 deaths. i think its a good change, stick to max at +6s if you die a lot 😂
@@bworl7 it's overboard for sure but bringing up a 6 makes you look like an imbecile.
10-15 deaths might be 'nornal' for you, but that is not a good key. More than two complete group wipes should be an auto deplete, obviously the key was beyond the groups skill level lol.
The ironic part about your comment is there are people who would say just 1 group wipe should be auto deplete because its obvious the key was beyond the groups skill level. Theres always someone who thinks more extreme. Its doesnt mean theyre right the same way youre not right in this instance
Oh my god, seriously!?
How do I make this whole video and people still say this lol...
The key was UPGRADED. Do you think that's a good key or not?
I think the timers are too lenient and people are being carried by ilvl more than ever before. Timing a key with multiple wipes worth of deaths is just not healthy for the game. People need to realize that playing safe and staying alive is better in 99% of situations in high keys. We need to stop rewarding people with key upgrades when they are incapable of doing the basics of kicks/stops/DR's/ect.
I'm looking forward to the 15sec per death timer.
@@Luxumbra69 We will come back to this in a few months I'm sure. I doubt anyone will like it once its in place unless it just doesn't have any real impact on keys.
Deaths are very much a part of the game.
Deaths are crazy, I never knew it was that bad. Deaths in groups I make are just a like 1 wipe max but on average it is 1 or 2, but I pick my pugs carefully since so many sign up…and not to toot my own horn, I parse top dps and healing, so a big reason is a healer covering mistakes outside of really high keys where unavoidable 1 shots happen.
Maybe in low keys? In higher keys, deaths are very common and not a hindrance to success at all. At least right now. Going to likely be very very different next season.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I try to pug title range, at worst a little below. This is perhaps a benefit to been a healer with high score, you can pick the very best dps who sign up and are usually title range themselves.
I have to stress though, I never sign up to any old group, only specific groups I think can succeed or make my own and check the players first.
@@iaxdy9822 We did a follow up on this showing the average death count of the top groups. Might be worth a look even if its just that part. Was surprising results.
I really don't think blizzard is listening to these type of players feedback like you claim in the video, or else we'd get an affix like "any deaths result in a key depleetion"
@@dylanwright6632 then why else did they take the 5 second death timer and triple it?
@@heythereguysitsMetro I have opinions on that too, regarding the m+ rework in its entirety but specifically in regards to this: I don't see people really giving feedback that "deaths need to be punished more". I don't believe the death timer change was in relation to any feedback and more of Blizzards initial attempt at trying to appease both the casual key gamers and the high end pushers.
@@dylanwright6632 Well that's what I'm saying. There was a lot of people in those circles saying this is how it should be changed and they are happy it happened.
I guess its technically possible none of those people ever expressed that concern before they made the change, but I just don't see that being the case.
At the end of the day, only Blizzard knows though I suppose.
@@heythereguysitsMetro The way I'm looking at it is that people aren't necessarily happy about the death timer changes, but more so about the overall m+ changes at that level. I havn't specifically seen anyone, other than this guy you're talking about in the video (but blizzard isn't listening to people like him when it comes to high end m+ changes), specifically praising the death timer changes but rather expressing praise towards the overall changes with the removal of the rotating affixes. Idk if im making sense but its flowin in my head so im writing it down.
@@dylanwright6632 ya, nothing wrong about what you are saying. I just am saying that I have seen a lot of people a lot of different places praise the change specifically. So the question in my mind is whether its praise that's coming afterwards or its something that was asked for. I didn't really ever imagine Blizzard would do any of this so I never paid attention.
But at the end of the day only they know if they actually came up with the idea on their own haha
hopefully ppl will finish out of time keys now instead of rage quiting lol
Ya sadly I doubt that will ever happen. Good to see you again!
bro thought he was the judge and only his opinion matters , i think he lost sight of reality , and forgot that this is a game not an irl job , hes one of the reasons pugs are toxic.
Ya, its a good point really. I would say much of the "toxicity" comes from expectations, and in this case, the fella has a lot of expectations that don't line up with reality, and that often leads to a bad experience.
Azralonites, man
@@woopig4419 hahaha
15:09 idk man some of metros commentary is the funniest shit. I shit coffee at the warlock death gate
Haha ya that dude is just being a hater honestly. Normal people don't spend all this time discussing something they don't enjoy.
@@heythereguysitsMetro no defect mentality lolololol wild
think that guy realizes if all these 'shitters' left the game the game would die? SO apparently if you play the game, love the gasme but dont get to the highest levels of M+ ur a shitter? I happily tank 10-12s the second 1/2 of a season when i want a change of pace, have no real need to go higher but really enjoy tanking at that level and DPS not much higher am i a 'shitter' LOL
You would THINK that's his perspective, but given how the comments unfold I actually have no idea what his point ever was. It sounds like a player who thinks he is very good and let's his ego talk, but all bets are off after that last comment.
I feel like most people that do 19+ level keys would not be making claims like that. Just a keyboard warrior with too much free time. Oh wait "not a big M+" player... well they got their bit of fame
Ya, you are right honestly. Its just SUCH a stupid thing to say if you are actually a casual.
I bet that guy is a healer too.. running around screaming.. 'DOGEBITENHOUSSEN"
The dude doesn't know that on a +12 if you fail a mechanic the healer has nothing to heal, because you're dead! Haha.
He doesn't know a great many things, it seems.
10-15 deaths is low for progression keys, very high for homework keys, and unheard of to people who leave as soon a a small mistake happens. I bet that guy was a leaver.
Gotta be.
This fool got cooked, nahhhh this is what we need calling out the community of toxic people that dnt even play the game but just shit talk all day 😂
@@datemike1184 ya honestly I don't let this sort of thing stand. If you don't know what you are talking about, stay away from discussions that are important. This has plagued this game for far too long.
lolcow is kiwi farms term. Kiwi farms is a site that has single threads on Internet personalities documenting every bad tweet/vid/etc that the person makes. Think boogie2988 or Chris Chan or destiny. These entities would be considered a “lolcow”. I guess you milk LOLs from them.
In this guys usage of it he seems to use it more like the word “Karen”. A catch all to apply to some one and disregard their opinions completely.
Ya no idea who these people are haha. From what I can tell its just hyper obsessed kids being bullies.
I agree with the relation to "karen."
even if someone is being stupid or weird on the internet they dont just get called a "lolcow" (you get called other bad words instead lol)
it is a very specific label reserved for extreme behavior and he is completely using it in a wrong situation
but with the way he comments and behaves, im definitely sure that guy called a lolcow one time and he started using it to insult others as well
@@TheGraveyarder Anyone who uses language like this is usually just not intelligent enough to actually express themselves properly. I have NEVER had a meaningful conversation with people who speak like this tbh.
This guy is incoherent, but hes not even close to the worst I have seen.
@@heythereguysitsMetro I can’t explain how jealous I am that you don’t know who these people are. Truly a blessed existence.
Brother, you got one guy-ed
What's that mean.
@@heythereguysitsMetroit means you focused in on one person who appeared to have an opinion that is supported by a lot of people (aka the title of the video) when in reality they are an extreme outlier (or just wrong in this case). I get why you made this video, to bring people's attention to people who think and speak like this, because I think it's important too, but either way that's what the phrase means.
@@quintit got you need a dictionary just to understand people on the internet anymore. Thanks for explaining that.
When people start talking like this guy you know its a guy that got ksm in prepatch after progging it all season. Honestly might sound elitist but blizzard should not listen to feedback from ppl that are below certain rio.
Ya it's not even elitist honestly. There is some level of mastery required to be able to understand the system well enough to give feedback on it.
You’ve got terrible takes and I can’t watch your videos, but I’m going to watch your videos and then try and argue with you even though I don’t even play m+ and don’t know what I’m talking about. you can’t makes this stuff up lol too funny.
Haha particularly funny how the quote he is reacting to is well over half way through a 18 minute video.
The culture of arguing about nothing on the internet has gotten pretty silly though.
I'm used to the early days when people who argue like this actually think they are good.
This dude actually admits to being bad! How crazy is that.
>makes daily rant videos
"this is not a video i planned making..."
>lies about the content I produce
"formats his nonsense in a way to make it sound clever and obfuscate the fact that you totally misrepresented what I said..."
Am I doing this right?
so basicly all ur videos are just about "well sucks to suck". stop focusing what others do wrong if u where ANY good u wouldnt have to make these videos
He is a good player, you must not have watched him play if you think that.
@@danielg2154 not even fucking REMOTELY what my videos are about man. You just watched this video right? Don't be like this guy. Actually look at the content we produce and listen to the messages espoused. Don't be so dumb that you make an entire assumption based on very little knowledge.
We don't really laugh at "bad" players here. We laugh at the situations these players get themselves into. But of course we understand that everyone starts somewhere bc we were there once.
The only ppl who get cooked are those who are toxic and actively trying to ruin keys for others.