My personal favorite theory of the sun, is that the sun, and the stars, are just like in our world "the same", except stars are all distant. According to sellen, amber houses ancient life, while glintstone houses remnants of life. The theory is wide and covers a lot of things, but basically, the sun, or "the one great" brought life to the world, the crucible, and eventually the erdtree. The erdtree was eventually worshipped over the sun, so it was forgotten. All sun descendant powers use faith or arcane. Arcane for ancient life, blood, etc, which are the original "arcane" powers of life from the sun. And faith for all the sentient use of those powers, golden instead of red. The sinners who lost their eyes, and discovered the "blood star", actually just rediscovered their true source of their powers, the sun, which is a star. So despite them using sorcery, they require faith to access those powers. Meanwhile, stars, glintstone and intelligence are all tied to death and spirits. Despite the golden order supposedly having power over death, all spells involving spirits are sorceries. And thanks to sellen, we know that glintstone is "remnant life", meaning even good old glinstone is just death/soul magic. The reason is quite simple, faith and the arcane has power over "life", while sorcery has power over "spirit". So perhaps "eclipsing the sun" is meant to take the life power of faith and arcane away, that is artificially keeping those that live in death "alive". While all smithing stones are warm in coloration, and eventually shine red with the ancient dragon scale, which clearly is the peak of "ancient life", somber smithing stones are "drained of color". Maybe it has to do with removing the "amber" and "gold" from it. Why? I have no idea. But if I had to guess, it would have to have something in common with the moon since one, the moon is described as "pale", two, the moon's light technically is a reflection of the sun's, and three, moon related lore and spells are tied to sorcery and intelligence, which means it doesn't have sun or life powers. Hell, maybe that's why miquella's unalloyed needle becomes white and drained of color once completed, since it succesfully lost its golden "outer god" influence. Perhaps that's what ranni's ending truly entails? If the pale moon, is the removing of the influence of any god or holy power, (but still veing influenced by its reflection and its remants of life, such as glintstone), then the dark moon is the absolute absence if any sun or celestial power. Food for thought. :) I am genuinely hoping my theory is at least a tiny bit confirmed with the DLC, but I have an inkling that it's going to be micro lore revelations exclusively, nothing major. So we may get some lore about the shadows and beasts of the empyreans, which is cool. But I doubt we will get ANYTHING about the elden beast, or what the hell is the deal with starscourge conflict.
In the occult the Sun is indeed the highest or one of the highest gods/angels. At least from our perspective on earth, though i suspect there are more dimensions to suns and stars that we cannot see from our 3D-perspective. In general the goal of alchemy is to first achieve immortality, then over hundreds and thousands of years gradually become so enlightened that you literally become a star/sun/planet. Elden ring is very inspired by alchemy so it makes sense that it would touch upon these themes. Stars/planets/moons/suns are in the occult regarded as "gods" hence why the gods are in the heavens etc.
Oh damn I thought that for the longest time, that the Erdtree is upside down! It always had me fascinated with the Erdtree iconography within the Carian tower, and inverted acarian tower, because when you invert the tower via the statue, the depictions of the Erdtree flip ad look like they're the right way up!
I've always suspected that the Erdtree is made of corpse wax. Corpse wax is an overlooked part of the lore imo. They feed bodies to the Erdtree through Erdtree burial, and Godwyn is a huge corpse literally infused to the tree's roots. I suspect Erdtree Burial was a tradition created in an attempt to make the Erdtree survive. Just like feeding Undead to the First Flame. Presented as an honor but really a curse on humanity from a God's hubris. Corpse wax looks like regular gold until you read the Gargoyle item descriptions. And it feels very "Miyazaki" esque to have the big golden symbol of life be, in reality, a giant disgusting pile of decaying flesh. If anyone can disprove this with an item description please share
Regarding the endings: There is another interesting detail - Marika. She is beheaded at the end of the battle - signaling the end of her reign. and the death of the golden order for which she was the vessel. In the 4 endings of Restoring Order, we put the head back, and the rune inside Mareka's body is supplemented with our new rune. those. The golden order has been restored in a modified form. Now this is our new order. In the Frenzy Flame ending, Marika's head DOESN'T ATTACH TO THE BODY, but is destroyed, and then the body too. which means that we do not restore anything, but destroy everything to the ground. In Ranni's ending, she raises Marika's head as if putting it in place, but only from her perspective, keeping her head at a distance from her body, and it is at THIS MOMENT that the "Snow Moon Portal" appears. Perhaps the particle flows are directed into the gap between Marika's body and her head, or are caused by this difference in distance. The moon is also at a distance from the earth, and the restoration of order occurs in this way, as if indicating that now the Head of order is not on the body (earth) but in space (the moon). In general, this is not easy, and there is something to think about.
I wonder if what we are witnessing/ hearing from the church of the minor Erdtree is the exit of Godfrey and the emergence of Radagon. Her searching the depths could be sending Godfrey and the tarnished outside the lands between to do the searching while establishing fundamentalism/ Radagon.
I always assumed the Marika speeches given by Melina in specific sites of grace were in chronological order, starting from the first church up in the mountains ("Hark, my lord Godfrey") down to the church of pilgrimage in weeping peninsula ("Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed"). Which would place the minor erdtree speech way before the exile of Godfrey and the tarnished (which is mentioned in the third church). But maybe I'm wrong and they're not in chronological order at all.
“Saint Trina may be Melina, but also not Melina, in the same way that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, but not the Gloam Eyed Queen, and Marika but not Marika” I totally get where you’re coming from but out of context this sounds so funny
there are three stems, I always saw the minor erdtree church as having ties to the three fingers. I think its wax on the tree, that's how they keep disease from entering a cut limb when pruning a tree.
Some general thoughts about the role of duality in Elden Ring: Miyazaki seems to like tragic dualities, like the pursuit of one thing producing its opposite. The main image of light and dark in Dark Souls is something like this, the choice to continually kindle the fire exhausting the world its meant to perpetuate (this is also the gameplay loop). There are a lot of dualities in Elden Ring but it's harder to map them cleanly onto this structure. Miyazaki said somewhere iirc that the Shard Bearers are heroes who are examples of corrupted virtues; virtues which become vices. Marika herself is dual figure, being both herself who shatters the current order but also being Radagon who mends it. But it's not entirely clear where or if there is a tragic necessity in this. There is the superficially typical image of the Lands Between as a deathless world which lives in perpetual decay in trying to keep itself from decay; and there is some irony that the force of death is returned to the Lands Between through the death of Godwyn, which introduces a kind of living death into the world as Death Root and Those Who Live in Death, parodying the deathless stagnation of the Golden Order (which seems to die in life). But there is no narrative necessity (at least apparent to me) connecting the removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring and it's parodic resurfacing through the Night of the Black Knives, which I think makes the story less interesting. In general Elden Ring seems more interested in the integration, or failure to integrate opposites, than previous games (Protection of the Erdtree incantation: "In the beginning, everything was in opposition to the Erdtree"). Ranni, for example, being the child of Radagon and Rennala, is the product of attempting to integrate the order of the moon into the Golden Older. Deathroot is the product of failing to integrate Death into the Golden Order, and its exclusion is what defines it. Miquella's Haligtree is a thwarted attempt to reintegrate elements from the Golden Order's past which it rejects, such as the misbegotten, who express the bestial aspect of the crucible, or the Albenaurics, who seem to have some relation to the Eternal Cities where Marika is originally from. The Erdtree itself seems to be a product of integration in the form of the crucible, from which it was distilled and before (I think) the Rune of Death was removed. Perhaps those deaths in the age of conquest were necessary for growing the Erdtree before the Rune of Death was removed? The Erdtree would have then begun to die shortly after, and the death that was needed to grow it had to be removed to prevent it from dying. This makes thematic sense but I am not sure how much textual evidence there is to support this. Do we know if the tarnished were exiled before or after the removal of the Rune of Death? Do we even know why they were exiled? Do we know if it has anything to do with Godfrey's relation to the crucible era and its relation to death? The only thing approximating a reason I can remember is: "Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die." At any rate, I think what makes figuring out the role of duality (or any themes really) in Elden Ring more complicated than previous Miyazaki games is (1) GRRM's role in coming up with mythos, so that it at times feels like a GRRM political drama which has been retroactively made to speak Miyazaki, and, related to this, (2) that the game seems to not be as much about choosing to perpetuate life and death in general, but a particular order of life (and death). Dark Souls is about the cycle of life and death and choice of whether or not persevere: that is what the gameplay loop is, that is what the story expresses, and I think it's pretty clear even to someone who doesn't pay a great deal of attention to the "lore." Elden Ring seems more about various orders or visions of life and death, and the choice of whether to preserve them or do something else. As an open world game the player chooses the order in which they do things, and they choose the order which they want to perpetuate. As such the game, at least for me, had a harder time making definitive thematic statements despite the incredible mass of "lore," and often felt like a disordered collection of "themes" and images not sure what they were trying to say.
I think Elden Ring has more to do with Duty. Which is also reinforced by the multitude of options a player has in an Open World. The game is still about life and death (as is all of From’s games), but the MANY different endings to me suggest they took a different approach than Dark Souls. DS was about ending an age or continuing an age. Elden Ring is about changing an age, to have a duty to change the course of life. The Endings in ER also imply for better “living worlds” than DS, with each ending (outside FF) having to do with letting the people live in this age, as opposed to DS where everything is looong gone - with no ability for any change anymore. Also with the GRRM thing, It’s waaay more than a more complex political structure in Elden Ring (which also adds to the idea of the duty of ideals). In EARYLYY Miyazaki interviews, he labelled exactly what George Martin’s influence was: “When we were talking with George Martin, we had these themes and ideas for creating pieces of artwork for the bosses, for these core characters of the story. And when he wrote the mythos, we asked him to create these dramatic heroes of this ancient mythos that takes place before the events of the game” Sure, George’s Mythos influenced Miyazaki into what Elden Ring was going to be. But GEORGE was actually the one that had been influenced by Miyazaki. When Miyazaki went to George’s house, he told George what themes and core aspects of a story he wanted. George then took Miyazaki’s themes and concepts and turned it into lore. So even if George wrote characters that Miyazaki didn’t, Miyazaki’s DNA is STILL in the core themes and impetus of the Characters (heroism, duty, taking by force, etc.). Miyazaki also makes specific mention to The Elden Ring and the Erdtree being INCREDIBLY important to the themes and core aspects to understanding the story. People overestimate George’s influence. The story isn’t as separated as it seems. Miyazaki is the one who told George what the core themes are supposed to be, and it was George’s duty to implement these themes into Characters, Ideological concepts( the Elden Ring), the Tree’s of Life in Elden Ring (Erdtree, or other), etc. It’s still very much a Miyazaki story. Especially with Marika - a being who, has a lot of political complexity of George, but her current state as an almost cosmic incomprehensible deity is most definitely Miyazaki’s touch. The best analogical way I’d simplify the behind the scenes of Elden Ring is: Miyazaki made the cake, the basing, the necessities. George made the flavour and toppings, that were informed by Miyazakis core base (SIDENOTE; another note id like to make is that Elden Ring’s was uniquely made, from a storytelling perspective “The biggest departure from the Dark Souls series is that I had this constant source of inspiration and impetus from George RR Martin and the mythos he had created. This probably had the largest impact on the game just because it was an approach I hadn't used before. It allowed me to draw lines connecting the history in this new mythos and build up something very fresh. It provided a lot of motivation and a great, constant source of inspiration” (Gamesradar, 2022) Take that how you will. I only mention it because I feel it is somewhat important to add. I simply interpret this as Miyazaki building the game around the story, whereas with DS he would come up with gameplay and story simultaneously. In another interview, in response to his ‘Gameplay first, Lore second’ design for Dark sous, Miyazaki talks about how Elden Ring was more ‘Lore first, gameplay Second’ (DondonRV, Making Of Elden Ring, timestamp 7:09:40).) TL;DR - Miyazaki and GRRM’s involvement is MUCH more interconnected and seamless, with evidence provided above - making the themes of the Game Miyazaki’s as much as it is Martins. With no discrepancy between the two in design. Some say overvalue Martins involvement, some undervalue it. Both are wrong, as it seemed to have been more a collaborative effort than anything else. The important thing to note here: the themes and concepts of Elden Ring are FULLY Miyazaki’s creations, not GRRM. That’s for sure. But it was Martin who was respectful to Miyazaki’s instructions, so he created a world built with the DNA of Miyazaki’s idealogical structure within every aspect.
I always saw the Black Moon of Nokstella as the cities inhabitants attempt at *copying* the Dark Moon Ranni is connected to. They used to worship it but lost that connection when they fell underground and thus, crafted an artificial copy. The copy then attracted the attention of an Astel, and well, you know the rest lol.
Man the sun discussion reminds me like, what is the nature of the outside world implied to be. Is the lands between like olympus basically where a ton of important mythical shit is going down spelling the fate of the world, but inaccessible to normal people (like dark souls it's the center of the world), or is the lands between this private bubble kingdom having it's own family drama where the laws of reality are bending because a god alien landed down at some point ( i think demon souls is like this but i don't know the lore of that game very well ) A or B really changes my perspective on questions like was there originally no sun to me
Posting this before watching, but I hope you are genuine about ‘lore psychosis’ here. I genuinely went through psychosis six months ago, and one of the things that I went through was a deep period of contemplation and investigation regarding Elden ring and fromsoft lore in general. It tied in to other delusions that I developed during my psychosis, and was a very difficult experience for me and my family. Don’t do drugs kids.
Literary alchemy is a very old, and very common tradition. The magnum opus makes for a very nice narrative blueprint as it covers compelling stages of transition through life. Before Joseph Campbell (total hack) made his dumbed down sludge of Carl Jung's archetype theory, literary alchemy was the ubiquitous layout for most heroic stories. Miyazaki and Martin are two of many story tellers to do this. However, they're both studs and do does it dang well. Melville did it too, and Tolkien, and Shakespeare, and William Blake, and John Milton, and CS and Lewis, and Gene Wolfe, and Ursula Leguin, and Samuel Delaney, and Roger Zelazny, and Stanley Kubrik, and Francis Ford Coppola, and Joseph Conrad, and... It's honestly not anything new or unusual. We just don't hear about it because of Campbell's book of low hanging fruit. In general, FromSoftware is harnessing story telling techniques that can be found in a lot of other places, especially modernist lit. But it's cool and maybe somewhat uncommon to see it done in video games, and it's always nice to see it done so well.
@@copyninja8756 joseph campbell proposition is the bare skeleton of a story, anyone trying a literary analysis of stories with such a bare bone structure is not taking their analysis seriously, it's like saying a story has a beginning a middle and an end, you'r certainly not wrong but you didn't add anything of real value
One thing concerning the minor erdtree. If you look at the erdtree in the elden lord endings, it no longer has only the "spectral remembrance" golden layer to it, but now has a "bark/wood" texture with grace on top of it, as if it has restored somehow. See the fracture ending in particular, it is especially evident in that ending. I think we will get an explanation in the DLC. Clearly the endings as they have already existed since version 1.0, are meant to reflect the full game with all DLC released. This game is incomplete and has already been made from the ground up with the DLC in mind.
Miyazaki said that the DLC is completely independent to the Ending of the main game. While they will still recontextualise the basegame, the ending itself will largely remain as it is… up to interpretation - considering that the endings of previous games (DS1, BB, etc.) also don’t benefit much from the DLC’s release
@@HeevaEgo I don't think he's saying the DLC is going to change the base games endings, it sounds like he's saying the already existing content of the (base game) endings was made with the DLC content in mind. Meaning what is already there will make more sense after the dlc, as you say 'contextualizing' it. Both things can be true and honestly it would make sense because elden ring is the only from game that after years of playing it and watching countless lore videos I still don't understand the major plot points or motivations of the major characters (why did marika shatter the elden ring, etc.).
@@coreyrachar9694 This is what I meant. This game is incomplete. The game was made as a "whole vision" from the beginning, but the DLC is needed to give a clearer image of that vision.
@@redheadsilver8041 right, my bad. Yeah I agree. I misunderstood. Recent Chinese interview, Miyazaki talks about how George RR Martin’s Elden Ring was too rich and content-filled that they couldn’t find a way to incorporate all of it into the base game, in an cohesive and interesting manner. So Shadow of the Erdtree is essentially the opportunity to incorporate this large part of the Lore into the game, in DLC form - probably due to its severe dissimilarities to the Lands Between (I.e - the Land of Shadows being a completely separate land etc.). However, As is with EVERY other fromsoft title. Miyazaki will make effort into NOT completing his lore. In Eary 2021 interviews, he talks about having a complete story in his mind, but he doesn’t want to share it with the player… (e.g.) - the nameless king was ONLY EVER a concept in Miyazaki’s mind and was never supposed to be shown or revealed to the player (until DS3, but we know that DS3 was initially unintended for the original vision for Dark Souls, as Miyazaki expressed his distaste in making sequels) Expect there to STILL be intentional plot holes. It’s almost certain in a Miyazaki game. It’s dangerous to expect answers to everything. I point towards the example of Gwyn’s firstborn NEVER being supposed to be revealed (initially), and being left open to interpretation for FIVE years, until Bandai greenlit Dark Souls 3.
@@redheadsilver8041 Imagine Dark Souls without Artorias of the Abyss. Imagine Bloodborne without The Old Hunters. As far as I'm concerned, we haven't even really played Elden Ring yet lmao. We played the 100+ hour tutorial for the DLC.
Stream starts at 5:57
thank you
Thanks 🙏
My personal favorite theory of the sun, is that the sun, and the stars, are just like in our world "the same", except stars are all distant.
According to sellen, amber houses ancient life, while glintstone houses remnants of life.
The theory is wide and covers a lot of things, but basically, the sun, or "the one great" brought life to the world, the crucible, and eventually the erdtree. The erdtree was eventually worshipped over the sun, so it was forgotten. All sun descendant powers use faith or arcane. Arcane for ancient life, blood, etc, which are the original "arcane" powers of life from the sun. And faith for all the sentient use of those powers, golden instead of red.
The sinners who lost their eyes, and discovered the "blood star", actually just rediscovered their true source of their powers, the sun, which is a star. So despite them using sorcery, they require faith to access those powers.
Meanwhile, stars, glintstone and intelligence are all tied to death and spirits. Despite the golden order supposedly having power over death, all spells involving spirits are sorceries. And thanks to sellen, we know that glintstone is "remnant life", meaning even good old glinstone is just death/soul magic. The reason is quite simple, faith and the arcane has power over "life", while sorcery has power over "spirit".
So perhaps "eclipsing the sun" is meant to take the life power of faith and arcane away, that is artificially keeping those that live in death "alive".
While all smithing stones are warm in coloration, and eventually shine red with the ancient dragon scale, which clearly is the peak of "ancient life", somber smithing stones are "drained of color". Maybe it has to do with removing the "amber" and "gold" from it.
Why? I have no idea. But if I had to guess, it would have to have something in common with the moon since one, the moon is described as "pale", two, the moon's light technically is a reflection of the sun's, and three, moon related lore and spells are tied to sorcery and intelligence, which means it doesn't have sun or life powers.
Hell, maybe that's why miquella's unalloyed needle becomes white and drained of color once completed, since it succesfully lost its golden "outer god" influence.
Perhaps that's what ranni's ending truly entails? If the pale moon, is the removing of the influence of any god or holy power, (but still veing influenced by its reflection and its remants of life, such as glintstone), then the dark moon is the absolute absence if any sun or celestial power.
Food for thought. :)
I am genuinely hoping my theory is at least a tiny bit confirmed with the DLC, but I have an inkling that it's going to be micro lore revelations exclusively, nothing major.
So we may get some lore about the shadows and beasts of the empyreans, which is cool.
But I doubt we will get ANYTHING about the elden beast, or what the hell is the deal with starscourge conflict.
Love your theory… I think it nicely explains the eclipse
oh god I hope this could be related to marika/radagon and ancient dragons’ stone forms
In the occult the Sun is indeed the highest or one of the highest gods/angels. At least from our perspective on earth, though i suspect there are more dimensions to suns and stars that we cannot see from our 3D-perspective.
In general the goal of alchemy is to first achieve immortality, then over hundreds and thousands of years gradually become so enlightened that you literally become a star/sun/planet.
Elden ring is very inspired by alchemy so it makes sense that it would touch upon these themes.
Stars/planets/moons/suns are in the occult regarded as "gods" hence why the gods are in the heavens etc.
Oh damn I thought that for the longest time, that the Erdtree is upside down!
It always had me fascinated with the Erdtree iconography within the Carian tower, and inverted acarian tower, because when you invert the tower via the statue, the depictions of the Erdtree flip ad look like they're the right way up!
I've always suspected that the Erdtree is made of corpse wax. Corpse wax is an overlooked part of the lore imo. They feed bodies to the Erdtree through Erdtree burial, and Godwyn is a huge corpse literally infused to the tree's roots. I suspect Erdtree Burial was a tradition created in an attempt to make the Erdtree survive. Just like feeding Undead to the First Flame. Presented as an honor but really a curse on humanity from a God's hubris. Corpse wax looks like regular gold until you read the Gargoyle item descriptions. And it feels very "Miyazaki" esque to have the big golden symbol of life be, in reality, a giant disgusting pile of decaying flesh.
If anyone can disprove this with an item description please share
Regarding the endings:
There is another interesting detail - Marika.
She is beheaded at the end of the battle - signaling the end of her reign. and the death of the golden order for which she was the vessel.
In the 4 endings of Restoring Order, we put the head back, and the rune inside Mareka's body is supplemented with our new rune. those. The golden order has been restored in a modified form. Now this is our new order.
In the Frenzy Flame ending, Marika's head DOESN'T ATTACH TO THE BODY, but is destroyed, and then the body too. which means that we do not restore anything, but destroy everything to the ground.
In Ranni's ending, she raises Marika's head as if putting it in place, but only from her perspective, keeping her head at a distance from her body, and it is at THIS MOMENT that the "Snow Moon Portal" appears. Perhaps the particle flows are directed into the gap between Marika's body and her head, or are caused by this difference in distance. The moon is also at a distance from the earth, and the restoration of order occurs in this way, as if indicating that now the Head of order is not on the body (earth) but in space (the moon). In general, this is not easy, and there is something to think about.
I wonder if what we are witnessing/ hearing from the church of the minor Erdtree is the exit of Godfrey and the emergence of Radagon. Her searching the depths could be sending Godfrey and the tarnished outside the lands between to do the searching while establishing fundamentalism/ Radagon.
I always assumed the Marika speeches given by Melina in specific sites of grace were in chronological order, starting from the first church up in the mountains ("Hark, my lord Godfrey") down to the church of pilgrimage in weeping peninsula ("Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed"). Which would place the minor erdtree speech way before the exile of Godfrey and the tarnished (which is mentioned in the third church). But maybe I'm wrong and they're not in chronological order at all.
“Saint Trina may be Melina, but also not Melina, in the same way that Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, but not the Gloam Eyed Queen, and Marika but not Marika”
I totally get where you’re coming from but out of context this sounds so funny
Plot twist: us, the Tarnished, was Torrent all along
1:19:25 i love how well this aged, this is basically confirmed with the DLC and the new crucible lore and spiral imagery.
there are three stems, I always saw the minor erdtree church as having ties to the three fingers. I think its wax on the tree, that's how they keep disease from entering a cut limb when pruning a tree.
Some general thoughts about the role of duality in Elden Ring:
Miyazaki seems to like tragic dualities, like the pursuit of one thing producing its opposite. The main image of light and dark in Dark Souls is something like this, the choice to continually kindle the fire exhausting the world its meant to perpetuate (this is also the gameplay loop). There are a lot of dualities in Elden Ring but it's harder to map them cleanly onto this structure. Miyazaki said somewhere iirc that the Shard Bearers are heroes who are examples of corrupted virtues; virtues which become vices. Marika herself is dual figure, being both herself who shatters the current order but also being Radagon who mends it. But it's not entirely clear where or if there is a tragic necessity in this. There is the superficially typical image of the Lands Between as a deathless world which lives in perpetual decay in trying to keep itself from decay; and there is some irony that the force of death is returned to the Lands Between through the death of Godwyn, which introduces a kind of living death into the world as Death Root and Those Who Live in Death, parodying the deathless stagnation of the Golden Order (which seems to die in life). But there is no narrative necessity (at least apparent to me) connecting the removal of the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring and it's parodic resurfacing through the Night of the Black Knives, which I think makes the story less interesting. In general Elden Ring seems more interested in the integration, or failure to integrate opposites, than previous games (Protection of the Erdtree incantation: "In the beginning, everything was in opposition to the Erdtree"). Ranni, for example, being the child of Radagon and Rennala, is the product of attempting to integrate the order of the moon into the Golden Older. Deathroot is the product of failing to integrate Death into the Golden Order, and its exclusion is what defines it. Miquella's Haligtree is a thwarted attempt to reintegrate elements from the Golden Order's past which it rejects, such as the misbegotten, who express the bestial aspect of the crucible, or the Albenaurics, who seem to have some relation to the Eternal Cities where Marika is originally from. The Erdtree itself seems to be a product of integration in the form of the crucible, from which it was distilled and before (I think) the Rune of Death was removed. Perhaps those deaths in the age of conquest were necessary for growing the Erdtree before the Rune of Death was removed? The Erdtree would have then begun to die shortly after, and the death that was needed to grow it had to be removed to prevent it from dying. This makes thematic sense but I am not sure how much textual evidence there is to support this. Do we know if the tarnished were exiled before or after the removal of the Rune of Death? Do we even know why they were exiled? Do we know if it has anything to do with Godfrey's relation to the crucible era and its relation to death? The only thing approximating a reason I can remember is: "Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die."
At any rate, I think what makes figuring out the role of duality (or any themes really) in Elden Ring more complicated than previous Miyazaki games is (1) GRRM's role in coming up with mythos, so that it at times feels like a GRRM political drama which has been retroactively made to speak Miyazaki, and, related to this, (2) that the game seems to not be as much about choosing to perpetuate life and death in general, but a particular order of life (and death). Dark Souls is about the cycle of life and death and choice of whether or not persevere: that is what the gameplay loop is, that is what the story expresses, and I think it's pretty clear even to someone who doesn't pay a great deal of attention to the "lore." Elden Ring seems more about various orders or visions of life and death, and the choice of whether to preserve them or do something else. As an open world game the player chooses the order in which they do things, and they choose the order which they want to perpetuate. As such the game, at least for me, had a harder time making definitive thematic statements despite the incredible mass of "lore," and often felt like a disordered collection of "themes" and images not sure what they were trying to say.
I think Elden Ring has more to do with Duty. Which is also reinforced by the multitude of options a player has in an Open World. The game is still about life and death (as is all of From’s games), but the MANY different endings to me suggest they took a different approach than Dark Souls. DS was about ending an age or continuing an age. Elden Ring is about changing an age, to have a duty to change the course of life. The Endings in ER also imply for better “living worlds” than DS, with each ending (outside FF) having to do with letting the people live in this age, as opposed to DS where everything is looong gone - with no ability for any change anymore.
Also with the GRRM thing, It’s waaay more than a more complex political structure in Elden Ring (which also adds to the idea of the duty of ideals). In EARYLYY Miyazaki interviews, he labelled exactly what George Martin’s influence was:
“When we were talking with George Martin, we had these themes and ideas for creating pieces of artwork for the bosses, for these core characters of the story. And when he wrote the mythos, we asked him to create these dramatic heroes of this ancient mythos that takes place before the events of the game”
Sure, George’s Mythos influenced Miyazaki into what Elden Ring was going to be. But GEORGE was actually the one that had been influenced by Miyazaki. When Miyazaki went to George’s house, he told George what themes and core aspects of a story he wanted. George then took Miyazaki’s themes and concepts and turned it into lore. So even if George wrote characters that Miyazaki didn’t, Miyazaki’s DNA is STILL in the core themes and impetus of the Characters (heroism, duty, taking by force, etc.).
Miyazaki also makes specific mention to The Elden Ring and the Erdtree being INCREDIBLY important to the themes and core aspects to understanding the story.
People overestimate George’s influence. The story isn’t as separated as it seems. Miyazaki is the one who told George what the core themes are supposed to be, and it was George’s duty to implement these themes into Characters, Ideological concepts( the Elden Ring), the Tree’s of Life in Elden Ring (Erdtree, or other), etc.
It’s still very much a Miyazaki story. Especially with Marika - a being who, has a lot of political complexity of George, but her current state as an almost cosmic incomprehensible deity is most definitely Miyazaki’s touch.
The best analogical way I’d simplify the behind the scenes of Elden Ring is:
Miyazaki made the cake, the basing, the necessities. George made the flavour and toppings, that were informed by Miyazakis core base
(SIDENOTE; another note id like to make is that Elden Ring’s was uniquely made, from a storytelling perspective
“The biggest departure from the Dark Souls series is that I had this constant source of inspiration and impetus from George RR Martin and the mythos he had created. This probably had the largest impact on the game just because it was an approach I hadn't used before. It allowed me to draw lines connecting the history in this new mythos and build up something very fresh. It provided a lot of motivation and a great, constant source of inspiration” (Gamesradar, 2022)
Take that how you will. I only mention it because I feel it is somewhat important to add. I simply interpret this as Miyazaki building the game around the story, whereas with DS he would come up with gameplay and story simultaneously.
In another interview, in response to his ‘Gameplay first, Lore second’ design for Dark sous, Miyazaki talks about how Elden Ring was more ‘Lore first, gameplay Second’ (DondonRV, Making Of Elden Ring, timestamp 7:09:40).)
TL;DR - Miyazaki and GRRM’s involvement is MUCH more interconnected and seamless, with evidence provided above - making the themes of the Game Miyazaki’s as much as it is Martins. With no discrepancy between the two in design. Some say overvalue Martins involvement, some undervalue it. Both are wrong, as it seemed to have been more a collaborative effort than anything else. The important thing to note here: the themes and concepts of Elden Ring are FULLY Miyazaki’s creations, not GRRM. That’s for sure. But it was Martin who was respectful to Miyazaki’s instructions, so he created a world built with the DNA of Miyazaki’s idealogical structure within every aspect.
I always saw the Black Moon of Nokstella as the cities inhabitants attempt at *copying* the Dark Moon Ranni is connected to. They used to worship it but lost that connection when they fell underground and thus, crafted an artificial copy. The copy then attracted the attention of an Astel, and well, you know the rest lol.
Man the sun discussion reminds me like, what is the nature of the outside world implied to be. Is the lands between like olympus basically where a ton of important mythical shit is going down spelling the fate of the world, but inaccessible to normal people (like dark souls it's the center of the world), or is the lands between this private bubble kingdom having it's own family drama where the laws of reality are bending because a god alien landed down at some point ( i think demon souls is like this but i don't know the lore of that game very well )
A or B really changes my perspective on questions like was there originally no sun to me
Where in game is it called 'crater lake'? Seems important as that would in some ways be a 'smoking gun'.
It's funny how tiny godwyn's body is in comparison the the roots of the erdtree, like that little guy is causing major problems everywhere else.
Most diseases are caused by things orders of magnitude smaller than what they are affecting.
@@endlesstrash4718 Yeah I was thinking earlier about how Godwyn acts very similar to cancer.
Posting this before watching, but I hope you are genuine about ‘lore psychosis’ here.
I genuinely went through psychosis six months ago, and one of the things that I went through was a deep period of contemplation and investigation regarding Elden ring and fromsoft lore in general. It tied in to other delusions that I developed during my psychosis, and was a very difficult experience for me and my family.
Don’t do drugs kids.
Literary alchemy is a very old, and very common tradition. The magnum opus makes for a very nice narrative blueprint as it covers compelling stages of transition through life. Before Joseph Campbell (total hack) made his dumbed down sludge of Carl Jung's archetype theory, literary alchemy was the ubiquitous layout for most heroic stories. Miyazaki and Martin are two of many story tellers to do this. However, they're both studs and do does it dang well. Melville did it too, and Tolkien, and Shakespeare, and William Blake, and John Milton, and CS and Lewis, and Gene Wolfe, and Ursula Leguin, and Samuel Delaney, and Roger Zelazny, and Stanley Kubrik, and Francis Ford Coppola, and Joseph Conrad, and... It's honestly not anything new or unusual. We just don't hear about it because of Campbell's book of low hanging fruit. In general, FromSoftware is harnessing story telling techniques that can be found in a lot of other places, especially modernist lit. But it's cool and maybe somewhat uncommon to see it done in video games, and it's always nice to see it done so well.
Nah Joseph Campbell is good
@@copyninja8756 joseph campbell proposition is the bare skeleton of a story, anyone trying a literary analysis of stories with such a bare bone structure is not taking their analysis seriously, it's like saying a story has a beginning a middle and an end, you'r certainly not wrong but you didn't add anything of real value
Black moon that shattered... Evangelion shout out?
Hey Crunchy! Just watched a newer Lore channel that seems to have a new perspective. Check out his stuff, I really think you’ll enjoy it!
I can’t watch it unless you tell me who it is
@@CrunchyVideos oh, duh! Levovit Lore
@@andrewvellos9735 Yes, I saw his Radagon video and enjoyed it
One thing concerning the minor erdtree. If you look at the erdtree in the elden lord endings, it no longer has only the "spectral remembrance" golden layer to it, but now has a "bark/wood" texture with grace on top of it, as if it has restored somehow. See the fracture ending in particular, it is especially evident in that ending.
I think we will get an explanation in the DLC. Clearly the endings as they have already existed since version 1.0, are meant to reflect the full game with all DLC released. This game is incomplete and has already been made from the ground up with the DLC in mind.
Miyazaki said that the DLC is completely independent to the Ending of the main game. While they will still recontextualise the basegame, the ending itself will largely remain as it is… up to interpretation - considering that the endings of previous games (DS1, BB, etc.) also don’t benefit much from the DLC’s release
@@HeevaEgo I don't think he's saying the DLC is going to change the base games endings, it sounds like he's saying the already existing content of the (base game) endings was made with the DLC content in mind. Meaning what is already there will make more sense after the dlc, as you say 'contextualizing' it. Both things can be true and honestly it would make sense because elden ring is the only from game that after years of playing it and watching countless lore videos I still don't understand the major plot points or motivations of the major characters (why did marika shatter the elden ring, etc.).
@@coreyrachar9694 This is what I meant. This game is incomplete. The game was made as a "whole vision" from the beginning, but the DLC is needed to give a clearer image of that vision.
@@redheadsilver8041 right, my bad. Yeah I agree. I misunderstood.
Recent Chinese interview, Miyazaki talks about how George RR Martin’s Elden Ring was too rich and content-filled that they couldn’t find a way to incorporate all of it into the base game, in an cohesive and interesting manner.
So Shadow of the Erdtree is essentially the opportunity to incorporate this large part of the Lore into the game, in DLC form - probably due to its severe dissimilarities to the Lands Between (I.e - the Land of Shadows being a completely separate land etc.).
However, As is with EVERY other fromsoft title. Miyazaki will make effort into NOT completing his lore. In Eary 2021 interviews, he talks about having a complete story in his mind, but he doesn’t want to share it with the player… (e.g.) - the nameless king was ONLY EVER a concept in Miyazaki’s mind and was never supposed to be shown or revealed to the player (until DS3, but we know that DS3 was initially unintended for the original vision for Dark Souls, as Miyazaki expressed his distaste in making sequels)
Expect there to STILL be intentional plot holes. It’s almost certain in a Miyazaki game. It’s dangerous to expect answers to everything. I point towards the example of Gwyn’s firstborn NEVER being supposed to be revealed (initially), and being left open to interpretation for FIVE years, until Bandai greenlit Dark Souls 3.
@@redheadsilver8041 Imagine Dark Souls without Artorias of the Abyss. Imagine Bloodborne without The Old Hunters.
As far as I'm concerned, we haven't even really played Elden Ring yet lmao. We played the 100+ hour tutorial for the DLC.
Thanks!