The lack of development of British high speed rail transport infrastructure and its links with continental Europe has many parallels with the demise of the British car industry.
I think it stems from WW2, a sense of islandism and somehow specialness in the face of the loss of the Empire, a reluctance to embrace Europe and its many cultures, and a hard coded steal from the poor and give to the rich classism.
@@robtyman4281 I think they're more than anti rail; they're anti investment. They are entirely focussed on short term profits and asset stripping and have no concern for future investment.
@@Bungle-UK with only 38% percent of your rail network being electrified, as well as the hs2 shitshow, I doubt that. Even small countries such as belgium or the netherlands have more km of high speed rail.
@@RichardFraser-y9t not just the government of the UK but the rest of Europe too. we could do so much more to put up a fierce campaign to encourage people to go by rail, and to reduce the problems that railways in Europe (Britain included) face today. remember it was thru aggressive campaigns that low cost carriers like Ryanair won the public.
@@chrisj9700in France, for example, internal flights are banned where there is a high speed line. I’ve travelled on French (and German) high speed lines at a very competitive price. Much cheaper than you’d pay in the UK. We could make UK rail faster and cheaper if we had the political will.
"Largely cut off" The ongoing tragedy of British railway development in the late 20th & 21st centuries continues. We're destined to keep creating half-finished pieces of line which don't create a meaningful system, leaving critics to shout "it's not profitable - we should cut it"
It's quite strange to see such a project seeming to have been planned and designed to fail in retrospect. Looking at failures to meet cost and schedule goals I don't know whether it's done much better in Germany or not. But, at least, projects are rarely crippled in such a way that they end up with barely a chance of reaching a purpose ever.
@@michaelburggraf2822 The UK lacks a strategic vision of rail - successive conservative governments have sought to dismantle any idea that the state should look at any infrastructure as a whole. We are a chaotic shambles and will continue to be so for generations while we continue to re-elect these morons.
The whole reason why Conservatives cut things short so that exact argument is made but at the same time, they have something to show but at a huge waste of money... If things like HS2 were completed in full including the HS1 HS2 link - These 2 projects together would be a gold mine... But its not the oil lobby making the money, the only lobby Tories seem to care about...
Why should people who never or hardly use rail travel subsidise it via tax? I’ve been travelling for the last few month at least once a week between Liverpool and Euston for work and the trains have been, at most, only half full. The shift from 5 days office working to WFH has changed the rail industry forever. People complaining the network is busy at weekend for leisure travel is laughable when many have been sat at home during the working week. Why should the taxpayer subsidise peoples’ leisure time?
It genuinely makes me angry to see how the potential of a *direct rail link to continental Europe* has been squandered over the past few decades, it could be an incredible asset for transport decarbonisation but even after 30 years it seems like nobody's learned anything, especially given the the lack of connection between HS1 and HS2.
Well….. HS2 will connect to HS1 via London transport. Connection both is kinda an impossibility without massively remodeling londons termini, in addition to getting the tunnels to fit inbetween the tube, the Elizabeth line, and the regular waterworks
@@corpsimmons575the whole point of a link would be to bypass the two termini though, and a link connecting the two lines was even considered when HS2 was being planned. It's not going to be convenient for international/south-east passengers to walk or take the tube between Euston and St Pancras, especially for those with luggage. Plus, the capacity argument against international trains on HS2 is weaker now that Phase 2 is cancelled and Euston has been shrunk.
A brilliant illustration of how successive British governments have been pathetic, shortsighted and inept (and corrupt) in their continuing failure to deliver an integrated public transport network for its citizens, visitors and businesses, and to miss just about every economic opportunity this should have brought to the nation. The Victorians would wet themselves laughing at how useless this country has become since their heroic efforts.
Well said. 👍 Fragmentation and asset stripping of national infrastructure by privatisation. Leaving nothing at the centre to remain an informed client. Nimbyism, profiteering……..you could go on, an on😡
It’s a lack of adaption and concrete leadership. GBR hopes to at least give the railways better leadership than the DfT, but by in large, the issue is Britain (like Russia) hasn’t really adapted to losing their empire nor the fact that they are continually chasing short term profit to feign the image of their empire, which inevitably leads to economic downturns and ruin. A product of the times, where companies would rather string together short term profit plans rather than invest in the future properly.
successive Conservative governments. Things actually started to improve under Labour, then as soon as the Tories came back it was just more of the same. Surprise surprise.
@@corpsimmons575 What the heck does political short-termism and mismanagement of the railways have to do with loss of the empire? Which btw happened several decades before any of these problems we are discussing here became an issue...?
Wet themselves laughing? Only its a crying shame. It's like every lesson they learned on how to get things right has been squandered. It's not funny, it's sad. Really sad.
There once was a point where passengers were prioritised. In the early 1900s, most railways focused on having the best carriages and passenger service.
Very true. They just don’t have the foresight, or the imagination to realise that good public transport links (rail, tram, bus etc.) are essential to economic growth. UK governments are blinkered.
@@marionbloom1218How? New Labour set up Network Rail and that saved people from DYING!!! Despite the shit the rail infrastructure is with this country, network rail successfully stopped people dying from privatisating our rail infrastructure to having some of the safest rail infrastructure in the world.
Don't forget Stratford International, the ironically named station since it has never had an international service stop there and was built to allow services to stop in London on their way to other destinations in the UK. As far as holes in the ground go, it's one of my favs but worth £200million; probably not.
Or Ashford International, which was open for a few years, but closed during Covid, and hasn't reopened. Maybe by 2025, but probably not. Now, I have to get a train to London, (70 miles away) to get a train to France. (20 miles away.) I'm in east Kent.
@@sarkybugger5009 I think the government only built Ashford Int. in order to pretend there was some benefit to Kent for all the disruption and construction of HS1 and the first opportunity they got to shut it down, they did.
@@sarkybugger5009absolutely; additionally, the cost of travel to St Pancras on Southeastern for an early Eurostar to connect for travel further into Europe is staggering....
At least the Nightstar rail cars made by Metro-Cammel didn't go to waste, they ended up over here in Canada as the VIA Rail Renaissance cars which are still in use today. I bet the engineers of the Nightstar cars never thought they'd be getting pulled around by EMD F40PH and GE P42 locomotives in Canada.
That or operating in place of the Streamliners in a year or two, I fully expect one set of the Canadian to be replaced by a full rake of Renaissance cars once the remaining SCV-42s are delivered
Class 37 on a sleeper..?? No ones getting any kip then... 🤣 A very informative yet somewhat depressing video highlighting how badly mismanaged the UK is over rail.. 😥 We're supposed to have invested the dam things too...
Really interesting….and relevant for me. Was on Bromley South station when last Night Ferry service passed by…..was also at Bromley when Eurostar services trundled their way through before HS1 line commissioned. Now in Manchester and part of team upgrading what is still known as MID (Manchester International Depot)
It must be the most underused depot in railway history! I was the first guard to work a train out of there while it was still a Eurostar depot. It was the first regional railway train from Birmingham to Manchester airport, and was stored in the depot for security reasons.
Very interesting presentation! I've been a lifelong train buff, but to be honest, I never really have followed the eurostar evolution! I'm, however, not surprised to see its another good old British cock up?
In a roundabout way, regional Eurostar now kind of exists, on mainland Europe at least, due to the merger of Eurostar and Thalys. All Thalys services are now branded Eurostar.
This situation will continue for as long as successive British governments buckle at the knees to the demands of the vocal minorities. If they had the guts of their European counterparts in places like France and Germany to just build the infrastructure and ignore the idiots, letting people realise when it's complete just how effective it is and, meanwhile, avoiding costly and time-consuming public consultations, getting the work done on time and to inflation adjusted budget, then we'd be in a much better place now, and might even still have HS2 North on the cards.
For passenger trains, it is all brand new, and freight trains use the existing network. The booking service is excellent. I was able to book seats for two months of travel and pay for them sitting here at home. There were no problems whatsoever. This is a sorry tale of U.K. ignorance, incompetence, and sheer bloody-mindedness. Apart from the waste of money. That's my rant over 😂.
Excellent summary of quite a frustrating state of affairs. The thing that gets me is all the engineering and socioeconomics works - the only reason high speed rail in the UK is struggling is a lack of industry coordination and a total absence of political leadership. This should really be an open goal to massively improve connectivity (with huge economic benefit across the UK) whilst reducing environmental impact of transport (in the context of the ongoing climate emergency).
Now that those trains are almost all withdrawn - I want to make my Transport Tycoon days a reality and run Eurostar power heads with long freight trains.
im just waiting for a proper Eurostar add-on for TSC (the only one im aware of is kinda crap and there is one for MSTS) so that at some point we can just drive it on any line we want basically
Thanks Ruairidh, that was an interesting video. It's sad that Eurostar didn't reach its full potential. You mentioned that some of it was down to technical issues, but they could have been overcome. The main issue was political antipathy here in the UK towards rail travel, especially from the Tories. What a network we could have had!
I used to see these Regional Eurostars in 2002/03 between Wakefield Westgate and Leeds bearing the GNER and Eurostar liveries. Great work Ruairidh MacVeigh in providing a summary of what went wrong in the British railways industry since the 90s.
If there wasn't such severe regulations DB might have been successful with their proposed ICE Service between London and Frankfurt. Or even that company that was going to use Ex Postal TGV's to operate a parcel service through The Channel Tunnel. Sadly they didn't come to being or even that Nightstar service at least the coaches built for such haven't gone to waste as they now are all in Canada. Anyway a rather informative clip to see out 2023 and Happy New Year to you and your family Rory.
Regional Eurostar was a great idea but what was better was when GNER took lease of a few units and used them to increase capacity on the ECML between Leeds and London.
I remember seeing the GNER sets, in the mid-to-late 2000s. Even rode in one on the short hop between Leeds and Wakefield. They were smooth, riders, and gave a feeling of a less constricted passenger cabin.
The platform allocations at Leeds always baffled me. The sets would have fit in platform 8, but were almost always sent into Platform 1 which meant everyone in the three carriages at the London end having to walk down the train in order to alight.
As an American, I only heard of the EuroStar from Top Gear when it was featured in a race from south of France to London against the new Bugatti Veyron. One thing I will say I love about the original Eurostar sets is the sound they make flying by. The whir-whir-whir-whirr to me just sounds so cool.
It's sad that Eurostar, isn't a viable option for most people, especially in the north it's cheaper to fly to paris or Brussels than to get the train down to london.
I can't fully articulate how angry it makes me that none of this could happen. I would love to be able to use sleeper trains to visit places but even our Caledonian Sleeper is very expensive.
I worked for the post office /royalmail 84-2012 and when they were setting up the rail net they looked at the Eurostar for postal work like the French do with there la poste TGVs also before TPOs were even thought of being withdrawn using mk3 spare sleepers or night star stock converted but cost issues etc All the best 😊😊
Given the current renaissance in overnight sleeper train services on the other side of La Manche (put "European Sleeper" or "OBB Nightjet" in your search engine?) this TH-cam article provides yet more painful viewing - the UK could conceivably play an integral role in this exciting concept but again (think HS2?) UK consumers are excluded through a toxic combination of UK govt. inspired incompetence/arrogance/stupidity/short-termism/bureaucracy - tragic!!!
0:49 I've Been On The Eurostar High Speed Express Passenger Train From London In England In The United Kingdom To Disneyland Paris In France Twice From September 2019 And June 2022 Last Year And It Was Super Awesome And A Bit Like British Rail InterCity 125 High Speed Diesel Electric Express Train And It Was A Bit Like The Orient Express Steam Powered Passenger Train As Well Too. Thanks Mate. X
How very British, great possibilities hampered by immediate screwups and dire infrastructure, and class 37s were at one point the only hope! I like 37s but blimey they're hardly a new invention!
It's a shame that after such a short time of operation the Amsterdam connection is getting cut for half a year during construction at Amsterdam Centraal, Eurostar did not want to operate the trains upto Rotterdam instead, people will now have to use other means of travel like Eurostar red (former Thalys) or the dutch ic direct* for high speed lines or the traditional rail network for those wanting to save money * A new service is planned to operate at this time with the new ICNG-B trains that skips Breda, Noorderkempen, Antwerpen Berchem and Brussels north and central, this service is planned to run 4 times a day each way
I don’t think it’s fair to say “Eurostar did not want to operate the trains up to Rotterdam instead”. Rotterdam’s cross-channel lounge and passport control zones are not big enough to be the terminus for the whole Netherlands, so trains would have had to run nearly empty. I imagine there might be limited platform capacity to act as a cross-channel terminus as well.
@@petergilbert72 it was still Eurostar that refused to run these trains, the dutch government actively tried to look for solutions to keep the services coming to the Netherlands, I don't think the station capacity at Rotterdam itself was a problem however as it's the 3rd largest station in the country, the only real factor would have been the border facilities and waiting area, they could however still do the old system of running trains with inbound passengers to Amsterdam, then run empty to rotterdam to pick up the limited amount of passengers they can from there and then continue to Brussels to fill up train, along with that the building at Amsterdam is not very large either and would also cause limited passenger capacity
From what I gather, they're basically going to revert to what they did when the service started - run through to Amsterdam on the way out and operate separate Amsterdam-Brussels and Brussels-London services on the way back
@@petergilbert72however, the Eurostar "lounge" at Amsterdam Centraal is woefully small, overcrowded and lacking in facilities, including seats, so it's clearly in need of re-building. As far as I know, it can't handle the number of passengers wishing to use the service, which unbalances the supply relative to the demand.
I genuinely love your videos but one thing that irks me is your continual misuse of the phrase “domestic” airlines (at 7:34). That just means airline operations wholly within one country. The term you are looking for is “commercial” airlines or just simply “passenger” airlines.
@@that1niceguy246 “Domestic airlines” could be used if you were talking in the context of airlines that operate services wholly within one country, such as saying InterCity between London and Scotland competed with UK domestic airlines, but in this context he’s referring to competition between the UK and the Continent, so by definition that isn’t “domestic”. He uses the phrase “domestic” airlines three times in this video, and on other videos he’s done, when the correct term is “commercial passenger services”, or “civil aviation services”. I will still continue to watch his videos, however, because mostly he’s very informative and has a great voice for the videos. He does a very professional job and deserves the views he gets. It’s just this misuse of the term “domestic airlines” that bugs me.
Very interesting video and it's really a shame to see the Nightstar run in Europe although these sleeper cars came closer to my American backyard. When it comes to sleeper trains, I would like to see the history of DB's old City Night Line trains and the current NightJet service from OBB that replaced them in a future documentary. I also would like to suggest a documentary on the failure of the German Transrapid maglev system and how all the world's Transrapid projects (except Shanghai's) didn't come to fruition.
well tbh the CNL and NJ trains have a history that dates much further back in time - before the CNL there was the "Trans Euro Night", a pool of sleeping cars owned by Western European railways from 1971 to 1995 (you could still see their logo for some years after it went defunct), and then before that... the CIWL company that managed night trains across Europe since the late 19th century... a singular video wouldnt do justice to the history of continental European night trains (and their unfourtunate demise in the face of high speed railways and low-cost airlines).
As comments from Canada have said I was amazed to travel on the superb Nightstar stock from Montreal to Quebec. Still we can soon travel all the way to Mexico and NIgeria to travel on our equally brilliant HSTs but that’s another story!
Much as the idea of a HST in strange places is amusing, HSTs were not designed for those environments or loading gauges, and are going to struggle with maintenance, corrosion, and crash safety in those environments. They were brilliant 40 years ago, but they're unfortunately reaching the end of their lives and likely won't go out in a blaze of glory while they're at it.
@@RaphH_ thanks for your comments. I worked for 19 years at Westinghouse and worked on HST compressors and then P4s (Double points if you know what they are). Spend years with the guys from Craigentinny telling me how incredible these units were and hated the Class 91 and MK4 s. As for corrosion Derby tested the original HST coaches for corrosion before GWR started up its Castle units and found the only area to suffer was the door hinges which were not required as they were upgraded to auto doors! As for the MTU units spares will only be a problem if Germany has problems with inflation (which is highly probable) and increases prices!
Quite sad to see the UK even to this day still suffering from the consequences of falling behind during the 2nd Industrial Revolution of 1870-1914 on matters like electrification and upgrading of the rail network and other industries. Those ideas like abandoning a number of cross-London rail schemes including an additional Snow Hill tunnel type mainline tunnel between Euston and Charing Cross stations with the North Western and Charing Cross Railway. Whatever one's thoughts on high-speed rail in the UK, recent efforts have been pretty pathetic to be honest even before the current scrutiny of HS2. What with planners ignoring the reality of a through HS2-HS1 link between OOC and Stratford International, complemented by HS4Air as well as maybe a White City Eurostar scheme-inspired route from OOC to Ashford instead of the palaver of requiring White Elephant termini in central London at Euston and St Pancras connected by way of shuttle buses, people movers or enhanced walking routes.
nice vid. I worked on the Eurostar from 1994 until it moved in 2007. I recognised some of the faces. I would just like to point out that UK Border Agency did not exist until 2005, Immigration and Customs did. Under the CTA it was a requirement of controls both by the French. the Belgians and the British to have security controls. As to demand, it was an impossible dream and in fact one could fly from Edinburgh to London City quicker than the the train could run-even if a Sleeper made timings somewhat questionable. The final nail was the timings through the tunnel, which were flighted as they had to cope with Passenger, RoRo and freight. I make the Point because we were dealing with Paris, Brussels inwards and out which made roughly four trains per hour as well as the other requirements and the tunnel fire that occurred ( I can't remember the year, unfortunately) meant that what running there was meant that only one Portal on the French side could be used. The final point was that on the continent it was funded by state as opposed to the British tradition of private investment. Unfortunately Thatcher has been used as a Whipping stool for the fact that we did not rebuild our railways after the war-when it was nationalised.
This is where the closure of so many railway networks from the beaching axe gets put into heavy questioning yes the purpose was to cut back and save money but the fact is those underuse railway networks and corridors have made up a good connection from the south of England to the north towards scotland
Beeching was not responsible. He only compiled a report. The Labour Party closed most of the unprofitable lines. The responsible minister being Barbara Castle.
@@SuperMikado282 Had Beeching actually given a factually correct report? Many say he hadn't, that stations were busier than reported. Congested roads don't have much traffic volume on them if you look when it's quiet.
Don't blame Beeching for the "Beeching cuts". It was then transport minister Ernest Marples that was the real villain. He set Beeching up as the fall guy by setting his terms of reference so that the outcome of his analysis was a foregone conclusion. Why? So his family company Marples Ridgway could get the contracts for building the new motorways that would be required for all the cars people would have to buy once forced off the railways. Possibly the crookedest, most disgraceful minister we have ever had, he raped the nation of its assets and still we are struggling today because of him. And Marples never even paid the tax he owed on these profits, doing a midnight flit to Monaco when HMRC were catching up with him! Beeching wrote a second report on the need to invest more in trunk routes, but this got buried because it didn't suit Marples' needs. Beeching also started Freightliner, the containerised freight service that saved freight traffic on UK railways.
Fond memories of the 00s when I was a York-KXX 1st class commuter and would randomly board a Eurostar set. They were roomier but the full Silver Service dinner in the restaurant car on the GNER sets was way more fun, especially when Chef was in a bad mood. The 2for1 drinks and free half bottle of red for GNER Gold Card holders meant every journey was enjoyable #goodolddays
Without wanting to get involved with the endless arguments about viability of Nightstar, I'm still sad not to have ever had a sleeper service to Europe from Swansea. It would have been fun to get a train from just down the road to Paris!
The inconvenience of getting to and from airports, the traffic jams, etc, sometimes creates so much headache that train service would be preferable. What a story. As always, thanks.
Thank you for this, it fills in a lot of gaps in my knowledge, as I wasn’t even a teenager when this was all going on. I was aware of most of the stock through various models, but the proposed routes in the U.K. wasn’t clear to me. Fascinating that Waterloo wouldn’t have been a part of some of the routes…
When I started as a Senior Conductor for Great Western our sleeper from the West Country terminated at Waterloo in order to provide connection to the Eurostar. Hardly anyone used the connection,and eventually the service returned to Paddington. I was the guard on the last Waterloo sleeper and we had such a good run between reading and Waterloo that we were all back in Paddington (by taxi) before we were due into Waterloo.
Eurostar always a magnificent train and Ive been on the Eurostar before some 15 years ago when I was on a school trip to Paris Sadly Eurostar are no longer going to Disneyland Paris Due to the effects of the pandemic And the fall out of the EU brexit
Around the the turn of the century, I was a young child living in a Kent town called Staplehurst. I was at the station on several occasions when a Eurostar blasted past, horn toots as they passed whistle signs on their approach. Until HS1 opened, Kent ran entirely on third rail until you got closer to London. It was quite spectacular to the
The White Rose trains did occassionally run on the Hertford Loop because I caught a picture of one. This was during an engineering blockage of the mainline but admittedly this was towards the end of their time on the East Line and was probably after one of a series of electrical power upgrades on the Hertford Loop
This is a totally depressing video. The short-termism of Little Britain is clearly shown here. Most of Europe has followed the lead, given by NS, Netherlands, to convert every line to overhead electric supplies, and they have succeeded. Excellently. And in the meantime, what did Britain do? Partially completed electrification of the east Coast Mainline. Massive gaps in the "doing" of the project, has resulted in a 50/50 split between electric power, and dual-fuel fossil munchers. Britain lacks the education system to do anything, but produce lawyers, and bankers, or else nobody important. Where are the educated politicians who understand modern requirements, and who are capable of looking beyond the next brown envelope bung? Where are hte educated engineers, with charisma, who can motivate the public to back progress. The class 373 was an opportunity to gain experience of modern trains sets, that completed the set tasks. And it was ended by the xenophobic TOCs, privatised companies who worked for their own profits and not the good of the country. 2022, the year when the TOCs received a total subsidy that was equal to the last 5 years of British Rail subsidies! Even the ROI "does" trains better than Britain.
Good video, but very sad that so much opportunity and promise was squandered. And so poignant watching this after the sabotaged HS2 project has been cut back to a useless new line between Curzon Street and Old Oak Common.
Pathetic Tory legacy of being beholden to road and air transport interests rather than the national interest. Imagine the economic social and political advantages to the UK if the new HS lines had all been built! In the light of the climate crisis which was already well known in the 1980s and 90s these historic decisions appear almost criminally negligent let alone contemptuous to the interests of citizens outside London and the South East.
@@Bungle-UK It’s not about speed altogether. It’s about giving people the option to go by train instead of by plane. Is that hard to comprehend? You can see in the comments here how people really want the eurostar to actually go to the other cities in the country. Train travel is generally more comfortable than plane travel and is easier to board
The story of Britain and high speed rail should be turned into a miniseries. There's plenty of plot twists and drama to make it work. Whether it would be a comedy or a tragedy would remain to be seen...
Thank you Ruairidh for such a comprehensive tale of woe! I'd forgotten half of the unedifying saga and knew not of the rest. One day in the future we might get our act together... we can but hope!
So, the trains had to be at least 1200 feet long to go through the tunnel. But the regional ones were 1024 feet long and also went through the tunnel. Hmm.
I'm not quite sure if you're aware of it, but there's always a comon denominator for all the 'british failings', compared to (development-wise) 'similar' nations. Seen through my eyes, it's basically always due to the british (or anglo in general?) unwillingness to venture into something new, when it hasn't been devised by themselves. Given that this anglo attitude has led to many globally important developments (but maybe not so unique that others might not have got there too - albeit a little later), you've gotta have some degree of understanding for it. Which means it is by itself not totally wrong, but if you're surrounded by so many other highly developped nations that are more open to change, then their influence will inevitably, sooner or later, have repercussions on your own life. The question that still remains to be consciously answered is: When will you recognise/acknowledge this fact, and how wil you respond? You're in a real dilemma there, and to some degree I do sympathise with you. I wish you good luck on your way to a solution - which your clue/spine/useless political class will hardly be helpful to achieve (the other lands are insofar not in a much better position...)
The poor quality of the British political class has always been the main issue. They have always been dominated by classicists rather than technologists.
Yes you were…if you weren’t interested in gaining unusual track mileage around north and west London. I was and I travelled on it. Extremely interesting route on a HST.
Took the Eurostar London to Brussels back in 1995. Awesome. I do remember getting an ironic kick out of the fact that a multimillion Pound trainset capable of 300kph kept having to stop for the 5:13 out of Paddington. I assumed it was just delay at having the "real" track installed, never occurred to me the government could actually be blasting away at its own foot by doing it on purpose.
@@paulmasterson386 It was hyperbole. I was making up something that SOUNDED like a slow, puddlejumper, local train which keeps stopping and starting. Plus my train left around 09:45 so it was already in Brussels (if not already on the way back) by 5:13.
@@natehill8069 got it! I was a Paddington guard so I was confused. Waterloo was only a temporary solution as there’s no room to build a high speed line without knocking down vast amounts of expensive London housing. Although St Pancras was a longer route it was cheaper to make it the European terminus.
‘Eurostar has struggled for market share due to competition from low cost airlines…’ - Uhm, 2022, Eurostar already has 80% of direct market London-Paris. (Bloomberg). We don’t have the same definition of ‘struggling.’
I think that point is a reference to travel from the UK regions to the continent. Not just from London. Where like you say, Eurostar is the market leader. But Random regional travel pairs, like say Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol, Birmingham ect to anywhere on the near continent, are absolutely dominated by the airlines.
Yes, that is a pair of Mk3 sleeper coaches in DSB Sleeper Train livery. DSB bought 10 SLE from BR in 1988 and classified them as WLABr had them in service until 1997 when all were withdrawn and sold to Angel Trains and returned to England. One was preserved and 2 are known to have been scrapped. These coaches were redundant in the UK but were the ideal length for use on the train ferries across the Great Belt. Once the fixed rail link was completed in 1997 to rail traffic the ferries were no longer needed and the Mk3s became surplus to requirements.
I have taken the Eurostar ski overnight service a couple of times. The standard Eurostar stock is used, overnight journeys are incredibly painful as only airline style or table seats are available. Most of us slept on the hard floor. I would love to use the service again, but a proper sleeper arrangement is a MUST.
Interesting programme. Not sure who decided on the overnight trains or the regional ones. When I joined Eurostar(EPS) in 1995 was hard to find anyone who thought they had a future. Am not so sure regarding the facts saying Via rail Canada took all the night stock. Currently outside Great Yarmouth station there are a lot of EPS night stock rusting away.
Just returned home to Denmark from S Korea, where I was thrilled by the KTX, this excellent video broke my heart. I grew up near Stafford in England. I could go on, and on. But I will make do with quoting Frazer from Dad's Army: "We're doomed!"
I remember visiting Manchester Longsight depot for work and there was a modern, long, blue shed with “Eurostar est ici”written in large letters on the side. Don’t think so!
Ruairidh, I would just like to say how much I find your channel watchable because of your detailed research coupled with your thought out and scripted narrative. Too many channels are packed with enthusiasm and interesting content but brought down by poor preparation resulting in over repetitive ad libbing and padding. Thank you for your work and I look forward to future videos
The irony is that if this had been invested in properly and HS2 had been funded, we would have very likely seen regional eurostars in the next 10 years. We'd likely need them too, if we want to reduce our use of heavily polluting air travel. Once again let down by those in charge for short term gain.
In the nineties Eurostar was supposed to go to Manchester Piccadilly. The site was cleared and space for tracks made, then as now, the north doesn’t deserve a good rail service as the London centric government of any party doesn’t see what London gains from this. No point pushing more freight on the WCML as it’s already full with no spare room. Services through Man Pic are stuck on 2 tracks that have commuter services running literally every 10 minutes so no chance of more trains there. That is why a tunnel under the station was put forward. Stupid government froze at that thought because it would be too expensive. Thing is, there is already some tunnels under Man Picc that were supposed to be the start of an underground system for Manchester to ease road congestion. Government decided they needed a tram system, problem with is, they shut railway lines down and utilised some of that infrastructure to run the trams on. So the roads are even busier and blocked morning and evening, because the loss of rail services into Manchester. The reality is congestion is worse than ever and rail can’t help because what wasn’t used for the tram had roads and house built on it, creating even more traffic! It’s got so bad Network Tail now want to take over a heritage line that was scrapped when the trams were built. The East Lancs Railway ain’t happy about that idea.
When it is said Eurostar is only competitive in London and the South East, I'd mainly say London. In many parts of the south east, it is not competitive, as there is the time and cost of catching a train into London, then often trekking across London on the Underground, before then getting on Eurostar. Parts of the midlands and northern England can get to St Pancras faster than parts of south east England. It's the more interesting and environmentally friendly way to travel, but it takes longer and is more expensive. Oh well, at least our roads are better invested in compared to Europe... oh wait, got that wrong, they're more congested and in a greater state of disrepair. Oh well, at least Folkestone Eurotunnel terminal is nicer than Calais, oh wait, it isn't. Ah, well at least Dover port is a nicer port than Calais port, oh wait, it isn't.
Nowadays with the advent of EVs and their propensity to catch on fire I'd rather take my chances on a ferry crossing, with lifeboats on hand, than I would being stuck in a tunnel.
I was the guard on the first passenger train to use Manchester Eurostar depot! A class 309 set was stored there overnight before the official opening of the southern chord from Wilmslow to the airport. We went empty to Birmingham,and took passengers to the airport. I remember our 4car 309 slowly passing the Eurostar set stored on the other road and thinking what a contrast. Shortly after that the regional services were cancelled.
Wow. I remember decades ago night trains bet Stockholm and Copenhagen, Moscow and the Black Sea region, also Zurich to Vienna. It's a shame this didn't work out for the UK and Channel Tunnel service. Happy New Years 🎉
I'm hoping to revive this idea with my proposal of the new InterCity 230 Project, a collaboration between FirstGroup and Deutsche Bahn. Once I have the money, I'll buy out FirstGroup, and make them a better company, as they are pretty much the WORST transport company in the country. We'll have Siemens Taurus locos imported from Europe (Germany, Austria, etc.), as well as the existing MK4 coaches working alongside Siemens Viaggio coaches being built for us that are identical to the ones that the new ÖBB Railjet sets have. Another idea would be to import ICE 1 and ICE 2 sets from Germany, and trim platform edges here in the UK to accommodate a wider loading gauge. Let me know what you think!
As regards the Regional Eurostars... there's no way the Chennel Tunnel would have gotten voted for by the UK Parliament is it was limited to a 'From London' service. But, as soon at there were technical difficulties, added to the confusing mess of Privatisation, it seels it was all the excuse needed to simply cancel it... and the sleeper trains with it.
Only the UK could throw so much money into a project and still end up with nothing useful at the end of it. And it seems no lessons were learned either - We're still doing the exact same thing today with that expensive and not terribly useful mess that is HS2. Deeply embarrasing for a country that was once world leader in engineering and in particular, railways! We are country full of creativity but have possibly the most inept, self serving and and short-sighted government imagineable.
Its terribly depressing that HS2 has been cut os mich, and that the HS1 link was cut. If it wasnt then there would have been a continuous high speed network from manchester to milan. How incredible it would have been
Connected by service yes, but strictly by lines up to high speed rail standard no. There's a gap in high speed lines in southern france between Perpignan to Montpellier, where TGV and AVE trains both in domestic and international services have to take a scenic but classical nonetheless rail line, shared as well with regional trains and freight (unlike other lines both in Spain or France, which are up to HS standard and/or have exclusive HS service). And if you can get to milan using HS lines, you can take the italian network to Salerno.
I was referring to the comment made by PeterFriedich. But yes, once Lyon Turin is open (and by that time you'll have Milan Venice open most likely, so you can consider that as well, along other Italian and French projects) it will be a formidable network indeed
The lack of development of British high speed rail transport infrastructure and its links with continental Europe has many parallels with the demise of the British car industry.
Expensive and slow.
I think it stems from WW2, a sense of islandism and somehow specialness in the face of the loss of the Empire, a reluctance to embrace Europe and its many cultures, and a hard coded steal from the poor and give to the rich classism.
It's a reflection of the Tories, and their real intentions. They are profoundly 'anti-rail', and have a history of this. It's well documented.
@@robtyman4281 I think they're more than anti rail; they're anti investment. They are entirely focussed on short term profits and asset stripping and have no concern for future investment.
What exactly are the parallels with the car industry?
The utter irony and shame that Britain, being literally the birthplace of trains, has screwed itself over rail development
The Tories have screwed us over Rail wise you mean..
It's always been the Conservatives ripping countries apart.. 😥
Birdlandia (south of Plymouth) is better than Britain at trains and companies.
Screwed itself over how? It still has an extensive network with record passenger numbers and the highest average service speed in the world.
@@Bungle-UK - Now those are the mistruths you speak of.. 🤣
Maybe record passenger numbers before the pandemic that scared you ❄️s into driving... 🤣
@@Bungle-UK with only 38% percent of your rail network being electrified, as well as the hs2 shitshow, I doubt that. Even small countries such as belgium or the netherlands have more km of high speed rail.
Never underestimate the ability for the UK government to half ass the rail industry to suit party politics.
and to be fair... the low cost airline industry of destroying its competition
@@CFRTrainSpotteryep, and to be fair the government can change that.
@@RichardFraser-y9t not just the government of the UK but the rest of Europe too. we could do so much more to put up a fierce campaign to encourage people to go by rail, and to reduce the problems that railways in Europe (Britain included) face today. remember it was thru aggressive campaigns that low cost carriers like Ryanair won the public.
Yeah, because its really that simple isnt it....? FFS.....
@@chrisj9700in France, for example, internal flights are banned where there is a high speed line. I’ve travelled on French (and German) high speed lines at a very competitive price. Much cheaper than you’d pay in the UK. We could make UK rail faster and cheaper if we had the political will.
"Largely cut off"
The ongoing tragedy of British railway development in the late 20th & 21st centuries continues. We're destined to keep creating half-finished pieces of line which don't create a meaningful system, leaving critics to shout "it's not profitable - we should cut it"
It's quite strange to see such a project seeming to have been planned and designed to fail in retrospect.
Looking at failures to meet cost and schedule goals I don't know whether it's done much better in Germany or not. But, at least, projects are rarely crippled in such a way that they end up with barely a chance of reaching a purpose ever.
@@michaelburggraf2822 The UK lacks a strategic vision of rail - successive conservative governments have sought to dismantle any idea that the state should look at any infrastructure as a whole. We are a chaotic shambles and will continue to be so for generations while we continue to re-elect these morons.
The whole reason why Conservatives cut things short so that exact argument is made but at the same time, they have something to show but at a huge waste of money...
If things like HS2 were completed in full including the HS1 HS2 link - These 2 projects together would be a gold mine...
But its not the oil lobby making the money, the only lobby Tories seem to care about...
@@BassandoForteif only there was any semblance of fact or logic in your post.
Why should people who never or hardly use rail travel subsidise it via tax?
I’ve been travelling for the last few month at least once a week between Liverpool and Euston for work and the trains have been, at most, only half full.
The shift from 5 days office working to WFH has changed the rail industry forever. People complaining the network is busy at weekend for leisure travel is laughable when many have been sat at home during the working week. Why should the taxpayer subsidise peoples’ leisure time?
It genuinely makes me angry to see how the potential of a *direct rail link to continental Europe* has been squandered over the past few decades, it could be an incredible asset for transport decarbonisation but even after 30 years it seems like nobody's learned anything, especially given the the lack of connection between HS1 and HS2.
Well….. HS2 will connect to HS1 via London transport. Connection both is kinda an impossibility without massively remodeling londons termini, in addition to getting the tunnels to fit inbetween the tube, the Elizabeth line, and the regular waterworks
@@corpsimmons575the whole point of a link would be to bypass the two termini though, and a link connecting the two lines was even considered when HS2 was being planned. It's not going to be convenient for international/south-east passengers to walk or take the tube between Euston and St Pancras, especially for those with luggage. Plus, the capacity argument against international trains on HS2 is weaker now that Phase 2 is cancelled and Euston has been shrunk.
A brilliant illustration of how successive British governments have been pathetic, shortsighted and inept (and corrupt) in their continuing failure to deliver an integrated public transport network for its citizens, visitors and businesses, and to miss just about every economic opportunity this should have brought to the nation. The Victorians would wet themselves laughing at how useless this country has become since their heroic efforts.
Well said. 👍
Fragmentation and asset stripping of national infrastructure by privatisation. Leaving nothing at the centre to remain an informed client.
Nimbyism, profiteering……..you could go on, an on😡
It’s a lack of adaption and concrete leadership. GBR hopes to at least give the railways better leadership than the DfT, but by in large, the issue is Britain (like Russia) hasn’t really adapted to losing their empire nor the fact that they are continually chasing short term profit to feign the image of their empire, which inevitably leads to economic downturns and ruin. A product of the times, where companies would rather string together short term profit plans rather than invest in the future properly.
successive Conservative governments. Things actually started to improve under Labour, then as soon as the Tories came back it was just more of the same. Surprise surprise.
@@corpsimmons575 What the heck does political short-termism and mismanagement of the railways have to do with loss of the empire? Which btw happened several decades before any of these problems we are discussing here became an issue...?
Wet themselves laughing? Only its a crying shame. It's like every lesson they learned on how to get things right has been squandered. It's not funny, it's sad. Really sad.
Britain screw up public transport at every opportunity. 😌
British governments, especially tory ones.
There once was a point where passengers were prioritised. In the early 1900s, most railways focused on having the best carriages and passenger service.
Very true. They just don’t have the foresight, or the imagination to realise that good public transport links (rail, tram, bus etc.) are essential to economic growth. UK governments are blinkered.
@@alejandrayalanbowman367 Most of this was messed up under Tony Blair's Labour government!
@@marionbloom1218How? New Labour set up Network Rail and that saved people from DYING!!! Despite the shit the rail infrastructure is with this country, network rail successfully stopped people dying from privatisating our rail infrastructure to having some of the safest rail infrastructure in the world.
Don't forget Stratford International, the ironically named station since it has never had an international service stop there and was built to allow services to stop in London on their way to other destinations in the UK. As far as holes in the ground go, it's one of my favs but worth £200million; probably not.
Or Ashford International, which was open for a few years, but closed during Covid, and hasn't reopened. Maybe by 2025, but probably not.
Now, I have to get a train to London, (70 miles away) to get a train to France. (20 miles away.) I'm in east Kent.
@@sarkybugger5009 I think the government only built Ashford Int. in order to pretend there was some benefit to Kent for all the disruption and construction of HS1 and the first opportunity they got to shut it down, they did.
@@sarkybugger5009absolutely; additionally, the cost of travel to St Pancras on Southeastern for an early Eurostar to connect for travel further into Europe is staggering....
At least the Nightstar rail cars made by Metro-Cammel didn't go to waste, they ended up over here in Canada as the VIA Rail Renaissance cars which are still in use today.
I bet the engineers of the Nightstar cars never thought they'd be getting pulled around by EMD F40PH and GE P42 locomotives in Canada.
That or operating in place of the Streamliners in a year or two, I fully expect one set of the Canadian to be replaced by a full rake of Renaissance cars once the remaining SCV-42s are delivered
Class 37 on a sleeper..?? No ones getting any kip then... 🤣
A very informative yet somewhat depressing video highlighting how badly mismanaged the UK is over rail.. 😥
We're supposed to have invested the dam things too...
Ironic a legit international service was scuppered by border force…rubber boat 10 Eurostar 0…😭
Really interesting….and relevant for me. Was on Bromley South station when last Night Ferry service passed by…..was also at Bromley when Eurostar services trundled their way through before HS1 line commissioned. Now in Manchester and part of team upgrading what is still known as MID (Manchester International Depot)
It must be the most underused depot in railway history! I was the first guard to work a train out of there while it was still a Eurostar depot. It was the first regional railway train from Birmingham to Manchester airport, and was stored in the depot for security reasons.
Britains current transport links and relations with our European neighbours have taken decades of work to get to this position.What a triumph......
Another superb documentary Rory, well done! 👍🏻 👏
Isn't it just!🤩
Very interesting presentation! I've been a lifelong train buff, but to be honest, I never really have followed the eurostar evolution! I'm, however, not surprised to see its another good old British cock up?
In a roundabout way, regional Eurostar now kind of exists, on mainland Europe at least, due to the merger of Eurostar and Thalys. All Thalys services are now branded Eurostar.
This situation will continue for as long as successive British governments buckle at the knees to the demands of the vocal minorities. If they had the guts of their European counterparts in places like France and Germany to just build the infrastructure and ignore the idiots, letting people realise when it's complete just how effective it is and, meanwhile, avoiding costly and time-consuming public consultations, getting the work done on time and to inflation adjusted budget, then we'd be in a much better place now, and might even still have HS2 North on the cards.
Exactly, these naysayers should study and travel on the amazing Chinese high-speed rail network.
For passenger trains, it is all brand new, and freight trains use the existing network.
The booking service is excellent. I was able to book seats for two months of travel and pay for them sitting here at home. There were no problems whatsoever.
This is a sorry tale of U.K. ignorance, incompetence, and sheer bloody-mindedness.
Apart from the waste of money.
That's my rant over 😂.
Excellent summary of quite a frustrating state of affairs. The thing that gets me is all the engineering and socioeconomics works - the only reason high speed rail in the UK is struggling is a lack of industry coordination and a total absence of political leadership. This should really be an open goal to massively improve connectivity (with huge economic benefit across the UK) whilst reducing environmental impact of transport (in the context of the ongoing climate emergency).
I always liked when the Eurostars ran out of waterloo. I found it neat to watch these long trains snake out of london.
British politics continue to keep the UK an island in all aspects, they are literally isolating the country from a thing known as progress.
"Fog in the Channel, Continent isolated"
Now that those trains are almost all withdrawn - I want to make my Transport Tycoon days a reality and run Eurostar power heads with long freight trains.
transport tycoon deluxe where you add extra locos to make the trains even faster. 700kmh eurostars or TGV's! (and 1000kmh+ maglevs)
The days of converting my trains to monorail and finding I still have a steam locomotive I forgot to replace ages ago... Good times.
im just waiting for a proper Eurostar add-on for TSC (the only one im aware of is kinda crap and there is one for MSTS) so that at some point we can just drive it on any line we want basically
I use em in my transport fever maps. They actually sound amazing too.
Thanks Ruairidh, that was an interesting video. It's sad that Eurostar didn't reach its full potential. You mentioned that some of it was down to technical issues, but they could have been overcome.
The main issue was political antipathy here in the UK towards rail travel, especially from the Tories.
What a network we could have had!
I thunk both sides are go blame. HS2 cutting up is both sides fault.
@@gerogyzurkov2259 but it's only one side to blame for selling all the Land so further expansions become either impossible or even more costly
To be fair, Labour were in power for 13 years and they didn't do anything to expand the network!
I used to see these Regional Eurostars in 2002/03 between Wakefield Westgate and Leeds bearing the GNER and Eurostar liveries. Great work Ruairidh MacVeigh in providing a summary of what went wrong in the British railways industry since the 90s.
If there wasn't such severe regulations DB might have been successful with their proposed ICE Service between London and Frankfurt. Or even that company that was going to use Ex Postal TGV's to operate a parcel service through The Channel Tunnel. Sadly they didn't come to being or even that Nightstar service at least the coaches built for such haven't gone to waste as they now are all in Canada. Anyway a rather informative clip to see out 2023 and Happy New Year to you and your family Rory.
Regional Eurostar was a great idea but what was better was when GNER took lease of a few units and used them to increase capacity on the ECML between Leeds and London.
I remember seeing the GNER sets, in the mid-to-late 2000s. Even rode in one on the short hop between Leeds and Wakefield. They were smooth, riders, and gave a feeling of a less constricted passenger cabin.
The platform allocations at Leeds always baffled me. The sets would have fit in platform 8, but were almost always sent into Platform 1 which meant everyone in the three carriages at the London end having to walk down the train in order to alight.
As an American, I only heard of the EuroStar from Top Gear when it was featured in a race from south of France to London against the new Bugatti Veyron. One thing I will say I love about the original Eurostar sets is the sound they make flying by. The whir-whir-whir-whirr to me just sounds so cool.
It's sad that Eurostar, isn't a viable option for most people, especially in the north it's cheaper to fly to paris or Brussels than to get the train down to london.
Ahhh finally we get to nightstar! I remember you pitching this video a couple years ago now. Good to see it come to fruition
I can't fully articulate how angry it makes me that none of this could happen. I would love to be able to use sleeper trains to visit places but even our Caledonian Sleeper is very expensive.
I love the exterior and interior design of the class 373. That is a well thought out design that still looks good to this day.
I worked for the post office /royalmail 84-2012 and when they were setting up the rail net they looked at the Eurostar for postal work like the French do with there la poste TGVs also before TPOs were even thought of being withdrawn using mk3 spare sleepers or night star stock converted but cost issues etc
All the best
😊😊
Given the current renaissance in overnight sleeper train services on the other side of La Manche (put "European Sleeper" or "OBB Nightjet" in your search engine?) this TH-cam article provides yet more painful viewing - the UK could conceivably play an integral role in this exciting concept but again (think HS2?) UK consumers are excluded through a toxic combination of UK govt. inspired incompetence/arrogance/stupidity/short-termism/bureaucracy - tragic!!!
For all of you complaining about passenger rail in GB, look into the sh**show that passes for passenger rail here in the US.
Once again you have blown me away with another cracking video mate
Well researched and very well delivered fantastic subject
0:49 I've Been On The Eurostar High Speed Express Passenger Train From London In England In The United Kingdom To Disneyland Paris In France Twice From September 2019 And June 2022 Last Year And It Was Super Awesome And A Bit Like British Rail InterCity 125 High Speed Diesel Electric Express Train And It Was A Bit Like The Orient Express Steam Powered Passenger Train As Well Too. Thanks Mate. X
How very British, great possibilities hampered by immediate screwups and dire infrastructure, and class 37s were at one point the only hope! I like 37s but blimey they're hardly a new invention!
It's a shame that after such a short time of operation the Amsterdam connection is getting cut for half a year during construction at Amsterdam Centraal, Eurostar did not want to operate the trains upto Rotterdam instead, people will now have to use other means of travel like Eurostar red (former Thalys) or the dutch ic direct* for high speed lines or the traditional rail network for those wanting to save money
* A new service is planned to operate at this time with the new ICNG-B trains that skips Breda, Noorderkempen, Antwerpen Berchem and Brussels north and central, this service is planned to run 4 times a day each way
I don’t think it’s fair to say “Eurostar did not want to operate the trains up to Rotterdam instead”. Rotterdam’s cross-channel lounge and passport control zones are not big enough to be the terminus for the whole Netherlands, so trains would have had to run nearly empty. I imagine there might be limited platform capacity to act as a cross-channel terminus as well.
@@petergilbert72 it was still Eurostar that refused to run these trains, the dutch government actively tried to look for solutions to keep the services coming to the Netherlands, I don't think the station capacity at Rotterdam itself was a problem however as it's the 3rd largest station in the country, the only real factor would have been the border facilities and waiting area, they could however still do the old system of running trains with inbound passengers to Amsterdam, then run empty to rotterdam to pick up the limited amount of passengers they can from there and then continue to Brussels to fill up train, along with that the building at Amsterdam is not very large either and would also cause limited passenger capacity
From what I gather, they're basically going to revert to what they did when the service started - run through to Amsterdam on the way out and operate separate Amsterdam-Brussels and Brussels-London services on the way back
@@petergilbert72however, the Eurostar "lounge" at Amsterdam Centraal is woefully small, overcrowded and lacking in facilities, including seats, so it's clearly in need of re-building. As far as I know, it can't handle the number of passengers wishing to use the service, which unbalances the supply relative to the demand.
I genuinely love your videos but one thing that irks me is your continual misuse of the phrase “domestic” airlines (at 7:34). That just means airline operations wholly within one country. The term you are looking for is “commercial” airlines or just simply “passenger” airlines.
Could domestic also be used to refer to airlines from the local country, in this case the UK?
@@that1niceguy246 “Domestic airlines” could be used if you were talking in the context of airlines that operate services wholly within one country, such as saying InterCity between London and Scotland competed with UK domestic airlines, but in this context he’s referring to competition between the UK and the Continent, so by definition that isn’t “domestic”. He uses the phrase “domestic” airlines three times in this video, and on other videos he’s done, when the correct term is “commercial passenger services”, or “civil aviation services”. I will still continue to watch his videos, however, because mostly he’s very informative and has a great voice for the videos. He does a very professional job and deserves the views he gets. It’s just this misuse of the term “domestic airlines” that bugs me.
Very interesting video and it's really a shame to see the Nightstar run in Europe although these sleeper cars came closer to my American backyard.
When it comes to sleeper trains, I would like to see the history of DB's old City Night Line trains and the current NightJet service from OBB that replaced them in a future documentary. I also would like to suggest a documentary on the failure of the German Transrapid maglev system and how all the world's Transrapid projects (except Shanghai's) didn't come to fruition.
well tbh the CNL and NJ trains have a history that dates much further back in time - before the CNL there was the "Trans Euro Night", a pool of sleeping cars owned by Western European railways from 1971 to 1995 (you could still see their logo for some years after it went defunct), and then before that... the CIWL company that managed night trains across Europe since the late 19th century... a singular video wouldnt do justice to the history of continental European night trains (and their unfourtunate demise in the face of high speed railways and low-cost airlines).
As comments from Canada have said I was amazed to travel on the superb Nightstar stock from Montreal to Quebec. Still we can soon travel all the way to Mexico and NIgeria to travel on our equally brilliant HSTs but that’s another story!
Much as the idea of a HST in strange places is amusing, HSTs were not designed for those environments or loading gauges, and are going to struggle with maintenance, corrosion, and crash safety in those environments. They were brilliant 40 years ago, but they're unfortunately reaching the end of their lives and likely won't go out in a blaze of glory while they're at it.
@@RaphH_ thanks for your comments. I worked for 19 years at Westinghouse and worked on HST compressors and then P4s (Double points if you know what they are). Spend years with the guys from Craigentinny telling me how incredible these units were and hated the Class 91 and MK4 s.
As for corrosion Derby tested the original HST coaches for corrosion before GWR started up its Castle units and found the only area to suffer was the door hinges which were not required as they were upgraded to auto doors! As for the MTU units spares will only be a problem if Germany has problems with inflation (which is highly probable) and increases prices!
What a day to publish this!
Nice to see your own work included in this particularly depressing video.
Quite sad to see the UK even to this day still suffering from the consequences of falling behind during the 2nd Industrial Revolution of 1870-1914 on matters like electrification and upgrading of the rail network and other industries. Those ideas like abandoning a number of cross-London rail schemes including an additional Snow Hill tunnel type mainline tunnel between Euston and Charing Cross stations with the North Western and Charing Cross Railway.
Whatever one's thoughts on high-speed rail in the UK, recent efforts have been pretty pathetic to be honest even before the current scrutiny of HS2. What with planners ignoring the reality of a through HS2-HS1 link between OOC and Stratford International, complemented by HS4Air as well as maybe a White City Eurostar scheme-inspired route from OOC to Ashford instead of the palaver of requiring White Elephant termini in central London at Euston and St Pancras connected by way of shuttle buses, people movers or enhanced walking routes.
nice vid. I worked on the Eurostar from 1994 until it moved in 2007. I recognised some of the faces. I would just like to point out that UK Border Agency did not exist until 2005, Immigration and Customs did. Under the CTA it was a requirement of controls both by the French. the Belgians and the British to have security controls. As to demand, it was an impossible dream and in fact one could fly from Edinburgh to London City quicker than the the train could run-even if a Sleeper made timings somewhat questionable. The final nail was the timings through the tunnel, which were flighted as they had to cope with Passenger, RoRo and freight.
I make the Point because we were dealing with Paris, Brussels inwards and out which made roughly four trains per hour as well as the other requirements and the tunnel fire that occurred ( I can't remember the year, unfortunately) meant that what running there was meant that only one Portal on the French side could be used.
The final point was that on the continent it was funded by state as opposed to the British tradition of private investment. Unfortunately Thatcher has been used as a Whipping stool for the fact that we did not rebuild our railways after the war-when it was nationalised.
Excellent documentary once again ❤
This is where the closure of so many railway networks from the beaching axe gets put into heavy questioning yes the purpose was to cut back and save money but the fact is those underuse railway networks and corridors have made up a good connection from the south of England to the north towards scotland
Beeching was not responsible.
He only compiled a report. The Labour Party closed most of the unprofitable lines. The responsible minister being Barbara Castle.
@@SuperMikado282 Had Beeching actually given a factually correct report? Many say he hadn't, that stations were busier than reported.
Congested roads don't have much traffic volume on them if you look when it's quiet.
@@SuperMikado282 Marples started it. Castle did soften some of the cuts, but could have done more.
Don't blame Beeching for the "Beeching cuts". It was then transport minister Ernest Marples that was the real villain. He set Beeching up as the fall guy by setting his terms of reference so that the outcome of his analysis was a foregone conclusion. Why? So his family company Marples Ridgway could get the contracts for building the new motorways that would be required for all the cars people would have to buy once forced off the railways. Possibly the crookedest, most disgraceful minister we have ever had, he raped the nation of its assets and still we are struggling today because of him. And Marples never even paid the tax he owed on these profits, doing a midnight flit to Monaco when HMRC were catching up with him!
Beeching wrote a second report on the need to invest more in trunk routes, but this got buried because it didn't suit Marples' needs. Beeching also started Freightliner, the containerised freight service that saved freight traffic on UK railways.
Fond memories of the 00s when I was a York-KXX 1st class commuter and would randomly board a Eurostar set. They were roomier but the full Silver Service dinner in the restaurant car on the GNER sets was way more fun, especially when Chef was in a bad mood. The 2for1 drinks and free half bottle of red for GNER Gold Card holders meant every journey was enjoyable #goodolddays
How the hell did GNER contribute more to Economy then any conservative government in my life time
Without wanting to get involved with the endless arguments about viability of Nightstar, I'm still sad not to have ever had a sleeper service to Europe from Swansea. It would have been fun to get a train from just down the road to Paris!
The inconvenience of getting to and from airports, the traffic jams, etc, sometimes creates so much headache that train service would be preferable. What a story. As always, thanks.
Brilliant as ever! But so depressing that we in the UK can’t seem to manage to make the right strategic calls.
One your best most informative & well researched videos always enjoy watching them keep up the good work for 2024!
Thank you for this, it fills in a lot of gaps in my knowledge, as I wasn’t even a teenager when this was all going on.
I was aware of most of the stock through various models, but the proposed routes in the U.K. wasn’t clear to me.
Fascinating that Waterloo wouldn’t have been a part of some of the routes…
When I started as a Senior Conductor for Great Western our sleeper from the West Country terminated at Waterloo in order to provide connection to the Eurostar. Hardly anyone used the connection,and eventually the service returned to Paddington. I was the guard on the last Waterloo sleeper and we had such a good run between reading and Waterloo that we were all back in Paddington (by taxi) before we were due into Waterloo.
@@paulmasterson386 that’s interesting as well, what stock did you have at the time?
@@adamwilliams192 regular sleeper coaches,a buffet,an open second class coach and a brake open coach, hauled by a class 47.
Eurostar always a magnificent train and Ive been on the Eurostar before some 15 years ago when I was on a school trip to Paris
Sadly Eurostar are no longer going to Disneyland Paris
Due to the effects of the pandemic
And the fall out of the EU brexit
As always a great video, but please start calling the ICE I-C-E and not ice as in frozen water
Around the the turn of the century, I was a young child living in a Kent town called Staplehurst. I was at the station on several occasions when a Eurostar blasted past, horn toots as they passed whistle signs on their approach. Until HS1 opened, Kent ran entirely on third rail until you got closer to London.
It was quite spectacular to the
Looking forward to your video on the utter failure and waste of HS2 in about 5 years time...
So much work put in shame the nightstar never took up. Up it can get restarted soon.
Especially if HS1 and 2 Actually worked.
The White Rose trains did occassionally run on the Hertford Loop because I caught a picture of one. This was during an engineering blockage of the mainline but admittedly this was towards the end of their time on the East Line and was probably after one of a series of electrical power upgrades on the Hertford Loop
as i recall reading on Wikipedia, only one was allowed at a time on this line to avoid power outages. how true is this would you reckon?
@@CFRTrainSpotter Sounds highly likely to me
Rejoin the EU and join Schengen and Nightstar and regional Eurostar will become reality. It will remove the customs and border check obstacle.
Brilliant summarisation of the Eurostar journey. Thank You 👍
This is a totally depressing video. The short-termism of Little Britain is clearly shown here. Most of Europe has followed the lead, given by NS, Netherlands, to convert every line to overhead electric supplies, and they have succeeded. Excellently.
And in the meantime, what did Britain do? Partially completed electrification of the east Coast Mainline. Massive gaps in the "doing" of the project, has resulted in a 50/50 split between electric power, and dual-fuel fossil munchers. Britain lacks the education system to do anything, but produce lawyers, and bankers, or else nobody important. Where are the educated politicians who understand modern requirements, and who are capable of looking beyond the next brown envelope bung? Where are hte educated engineers, with charisma, who can motivate the public to back progress.
The class 373 was an opportunity to gain experience of modern trains sets, that completed the set tasks. And it was ended by the xenophobic TOCs, privatised companies who worked for their own profits and not the good of the country. 2022, the year when the TOCs received a total subsidy that was equal to the last 5 years of British Rail subsidies! Even the ROI "does" trains better than Britain.
Good video, but very sad that so much opportunity and promise was squandered. And so poignant watching this after the sabotaged HS2 project has been cut back to a useless new line between Curzon Street and Old Oak Common.
If the Nightstar came to be, I would probably have taken a sleeper train through the Chunnel from London to any Western European city.
Pathetic Tory legacy of being beholden to road and air transport interests rather than the national interest. Imagine the economic social and political advantages to the UK if the new HS lines had all been built! In the light of the climate crisis which was already well known in the 1980s and 90s these historic decisions appear almost criminally negligent let alone contemptuous to the interests of citizens outside London and the South East.
Regional Eurostar was never going to work….trains can’t compete with 60-90 minute flights from the UK to Western Europe.
But international train services in Europe are competing just fine against flight travel. The problem is the UK, not international train travel
@@StanTorrent Feel free to explain how a train can get from Edinburgh or Manchester to Paris or Amsterdam anywhere near as fast as a plane.
@@Bungle-UK It’s not about speed altogether. It’s about giving people the option to go by train instead of by plane. Is that hard to comprehend? You can see in the comments here how people really want the eurostar to actually go to the other cities in the country. Train travel is generally more comfortable than plane travel and is easier to board
The story of Britain and high speed rail should be turned into a miniseries. There's plenty of plot twists and drama to make it work.
Whether it would be a comedy or a tragedy would remain to be seen...
Thank you Ruairidh for such a comprehensive tale of woe! I'd forgotten half of the unedifying saga and knew not of the rest.
One day in the future we might get our act together...
we can but hope!
Very interesting and equally depressing. What a mess.
So, the trains had to be at least 1200 feet long to go through the tunnel. But the regional ones were 1024 feet long and also went through the tunnel. Hmm.
I think they were marshalled into different trains before going through the tunnel and onto their different destinations.
I'm not quite sure if you're aware of it, but there's always a comon denominator for all the 'british failings', compared to (development-wise) 'similar' nations. Seen through my eyes, it's basically always due to the british (or anglo in general?) unwillingness to venture into something new, when it hasn't been devised by themselves. Given that this anglo attitude has led to many globally important developments (but maybe not so unique that others might not have got there too - albeit a little later), you've gotta have some degree of understanding for it. Which means it is by itself not totally wrong, but if you're surrounded by so many other highly developped nations that are more open to change, then their influence will inevitably, sooner or later, have repercussions on your own life. The question that still remains to be consciously answered is: When will you recognise/acknowledge this fact, and how wil you respond? You're in a real dilemma there, and to some degree I do sympathise with you. I wish you good luck on your way to a solution - which your clue/spine/useless political class will hardly be helpful to achieve (the other lands are insofar not in a much better position...)
The poor quality of the British political class has always been the main issue. They have always been dominated by classicists rather than technologists.
I remember the Eurostar link. It was very very slow. You were much better off on the normal train and a black cab.
Yes you were…if you weren’t interested in gaining unusual track mileage around north and west London. I was and I travelled on it. Extremely interesting route on a HST.
Took the Eurostar London to Brussels back in 1995. Awesome. I do remember getting an ironic kick out of the fact that a multimillion Pound trainset capable of 300kph kept having to stop for the 5:13 out of Paddington. I assumed it was just delay at having the "real" track installed, never occurred to me the government could actually be blasting away at its own foot by doing it on purpose.
The 05.13 out of Paddington? How could that get in the way of a train leaving Waterloo?
@@paulmasterson386 It was hyperbole. I was making up something that SOUNDED like a slow, puddlejumper, local train which keeps stopping and starting.
Plus my train left around 09:45 so it was already in Brussels (if not already on the way back) by 5:13.
@@natehill8069 got it! I was a Paddington guard so I was confused. Waterloo was only a temporary solution as there’s no room to build a high speed line without knocking down vast amounts of expensive London housing. Although St Pancras was a longer route it was cheaper to make it the European terminus.
‘Eurostar has struggled for market share due to competition from low cost airlines…’ - Uhm, 2022, Eurostar already has 80% of direct market London-Paris. (Bloomberg). We don’t have the same definition of ‘struggling.’
I think that point is a reference to travel from the UK regions to the continent. Not just from London. Where like you say, Eurostar is the market leader. But Random regional travel pairs, like say Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol, Birmingham ect to anywhere on the near continent, are absolutely dominated by the airlines.
I believe some of those former mk3 sleeper carriages converted to generator Coaches are in storage at Great Yarmouth carriage sidings.
I love the match wagons in use with that Eurostar set @ 4:56!!!!!
Yes, that is a pair of Mk3 sleeper coaches in DSB Sleeper Train livery. DSB bought 10 SLE from BR in 1988 and classified them as WLABr had them in service until 1997 when all were withdrawn and sold to Angel Trains and returned to England. One was preserved and 2 are known to have been scrapped. These coaches were redundant in the UK but were the ideal length for use on the train ferries across the Great Belt. Once the fixed rail link was completed in 1997 to rail traffic the ferries were no longer needed and the Mk3s became surplus to requirements.
I have taken the Eurostar ski overnight service a couple of times. The standard Eurostar stock is used, overnight journeys are incredibly painful as only airline style or table seats are available. Most of us slept on the hard floor.
I would love to use the service again, but a proper sleeper arrangement is a MUST.
Interesting programme. Not sure who decided on the overnight trains or the regional ones. When I joined Eurostar(EPS) in 1995 was hard to find anyone who thought they had a future. Am not so sure regarding the facts saying Via rail Canada took all the night stock. Currently outside Great Yarmouth station there are a lot of EPS night stock
rusting away.
Just returned home to Denmark from S Korea, where I was thrilled by the KTX, this excellent video broke my heart. I grew up near Stafford in England. I could go on, and on. But I will make do with quoting Frazer from Dad's Army: "We're doomed!"
This is the second Eurostar video that I see that was uploaded today, right on the day service was suspended because of flooding in the Thames tunnel.
Not quite correct. The Class 37/6 used by EPS were not fitted with ETS. They were only wired for ETS with the power coming from the generator cars.
As always, very interesting and informative. FYI - Polmadie TMD is “south of” Glasgow in the same way that Bermondsey is “south of” London.
It really upsets me that we could have a system and train system that truly would made us a truly united kingdom
I remember visiting Manchester Longsight depot for work and there was a modern, long, blue shed with “Eurostar est ici”written in large letters on the side.
Don’t think so!
Ruairidh, I would just like to say how much I find your channel watchable because of your detailed research coupled with your thought out and scripted narrative. Too many channels are packed with enthusiasm and interesting content but brought down by poor preparation resulting in over repetitive ad libbing and padding.
Thank you for your work and I look forward to future videos
The irony is that if this had been invested in properly and HS2 had been funded, we would have very likely seen regional eurostars in the next 10 years.
We'd likely need them too, if we want to reduce our use of heavily polluting air travel.
Once again let down by those in charge for short term gain.
In the nineties Eurostar was supposed to go to Manchester Piccadilly. The site was cleared and space for tracks made, then as now, the north doesn’t deserve a good rail service as the London centric government of any party doesn’t see what London gains from this.
No point pushing more freight on the WCML as it’s already full with no spare room. Services through Man Pic are stuck on 2 tracks that have commuter services running literally every 10 minutes so no chance of more trains there. That is why a tunnel under the station was put forward. Stupid government froze at that thought because it would be too expensive. Thing is, there is already some tunnels under Man Picc that were supposed to be the start of an underground system for Manchester to ease road congestion. Government decided they needed a tram system, problem with is, they shut railway lines down and utilised some of that infrastructure to run the trams on.
So the roads are even busier and blocked morning and evening, because the loss of rail services into Manchester. The reality is congestion is worse than ever and rail can’t help because what wasn’t used for the tram had roads and house built on it, creating even more traffic!
It’s got so bad Network Tail now want to take over a heritage line that was scrapped when the trams were built. The East Lancs Railway ain’t happy about that idea.
I love my country’s railways. I’ve spent my career helping to keep them running. But we are an embarrassment as far as high speed rail is concerned.
When it is said Eurostar is only competitive in London and the South East, I'd mainly say London. In many parts of the south east, it is not competitive, as there is the time and cost of catching a train into London, then often trekking across London on the Underground, before then getting on Eurostar. Parts of the midlands and northern England can get to St Pancras faster than parts of south east England. It's the more interesting and environmentally friendly way to travel, but it takes longer and is more expensive.
Oh well, at least our roads are better invested in compared to Europe... oh wait, got that wrong, they're more congested and in a greater state of disrepair. Oh well, at least Folkestone Eurotunnel terminal is nicer than Calais, oh wait, it isn't. Ah, well at least Dover port is a nicer port than Calais port, oh wait, it isn't.
Nowadays with the advent of EVs and their propensity to catch on fire I'd rather take my chances on a ferry crossing, with lifeboats on hand, than I would being stuck in a tunnel.
I was the guard on the first passenger train to use Manchester Eurostar depot! A class 309 set was stored there overnight before the official opening of the southern chord from Wilmslow to the airport. We went empty to Birmingham,and took passengers to the airport. I remember our 4car 309 slowly passing the Eurostar set stored on the other road and thinking what a contrast. Shortly after that the regional services were cancelled.
Wow. I remember decades ago night trains bet Stockholm and Copenhagen, Moscow and the Black Sea region, also Zurich to Vienna. It's a shame this didn't work out for the UK and Channel Tunnel service.
Happy New Years 🎉
I'm hoping to revive this idea with my proposal of the new InterCity 230 Project, a collaboration between FirstGroup and Deutsche Bahn. Once I have the money, I'll buy out FirstGroup, and make them a better company, as they are pretty much the WORST transport company in the country. We'll have Siemens Taurus locos imported from Europe (Germany, Austria, etc.), as well as the existing MK4 coaches working alongside Siemens Viaggio coaches being built for us that are identical to the ones that the new ÖBB Railjet sets have. Another idea would be to import ICE 1 and ICE 2 sets from Germany, and trim platform edges here in the UK to accommodate a wider loading gauge. Let me know what you think!
I used to live near Tonbridge and in the mid 90’s this would go past my front garden. Wasn’t ever loud and loved seeing it.
As regards the Regional Eurostars... there's no way the Chennel Tunnel would have gotten voted for by the UK Parliament is it was limited to a 'From London' service.
But, as soon at there were technical difficulties, added to the confusing mess of Privatisation, it seels it was all the excuse needed to simply cancel it... and the sleeper trains with it.
And Via Rail have not changed much on the Nightstar stock except climate mods, plug sockets, couplers, buffer removals and a slight livery variation.
Only the UK could throw so much money into a project and still end up with nothing useful at the end of it. And it seems no lessons were learned either - We're still doing the exact same thing today with that expensive and not terribly useful mess that is HS2. Deeply embarrasing for a country that was once world leader in engineering and in particular, railways! We are country full of creativity but have possibly the most inept, self serving and and short-sighted government imagineable.
If you consider HS2's primary purpose as a vehicle for transferring public (our!) money to private interests, it has been an unmitigated success.
Its terribly depressing that HS2 has been cut os mich, and that the HS1 link was cut. If it wasnt then there would have been a continuous high speed network from manchester to milan. How incredible it would have been
Not just Milan, but to Seville too.
Connected by service yes, but strictly by lines up to high speed rail standard no. There's a gap in high speed lines in southern france between Perpignan to Montpellier, where TGV and AVE trains both in domestic and international services have to take a scenic but classical nonetheless rail line, shared as well with regional trains and freight (unlike other lines both in Spain or France, which are up to HS standard and/or have exclusive HS service). And if you can get to milan using HS lines, you can take the italian network to Salerno.
@@pablocanovas2779 I'm talking about Milan not Barcelona. Once the lyon-turin tunnel is build such a London Milan would be possible only on HSL
I was referring to the comment made by PeterFriedich. But yes, once Lyon Turin is open (and by that time you'll have Milan Venice open most likely, so you can consider that as well, along other Italian and French projects) it will be a formidable network indeed