World's first Nano Flow cell energy powered EV's are coming?!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ธ.ค. 2022
- World's first Nano Flow cell energy powered EV's are coming?!
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#nanoFlowcell #NanoFlowcell #batteryproduction #evbatteries #evnews
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Flow batteries make lots of sense to me for grid-scale stationary storage.
Vanadium Redox Battery，china already build the world largest flow battery power storage station. Dalian Rongke Power has connected a 100 MW redox flow battery storage system to the grid in Dalian, china
It makes a lot of sense to replace hydrogen. As long fuel is cheap.
They would also make a lot of sense in solar boats...
As long as the liquid is pre-rechargeable and draining out doesn’t take too long Flow Battery sounds good. 528lbs of fuel VS Tesla’s 1,200lbs of battery 🤨 and faster re-energizeation time.
Aloha from Hawaii, Sam. First of all, best wishes for positive outcomes and a speedy recovery for your wife. Secondly, thank you for the information you share and the videos you produce. I find them very insightful.
Regarding nanoflow, first of all, I don't work for Nanoflow nor do I have any stake in the company, etc... As for their energy system, they operate using the concepts of the flow or redux flow battery, where there are 2 electrolytes, a negative (anolyte) and a positive (catholyte), which are combined to produce electrical energy. The difference is that Nanoflow claims output significantly higher than what has been realized in the past. I don't claim to know all of the ins and outs, but I do have a science background and would suggest that this is at least plausible. As for how easy it would be to adopt, well it depends on the nature of the chemicals involved. One way to "recharge" a flow battery would be to replace the spent electrolytes. Another way would be to use electrical power to forcibly separate the electrolytes back into their anolyte/catholyte states. This, in my opinion, is key. I see at least 2 ways that these could be useful and possibly favorable (or at least comparable) to a plug-in EV. In the first case, suppose you had tanks of electrolyte and home? You could use energy generated at home (or purchased from the grid at low demand times) to "charge" your tanks. This would give you backup power for your home, but also potentially give you a way to swap out the spent electrolytes in your car. Alternatively, if you could plug in your nanoflow vehicle at home and reverse the process, it would basically function like a BEV. Also, I'm assuming that the process of switching out the fluids is akin to filling petrol in an ICE vehicle, so could be much faster IF they were to build out infrastructure to allow external "charging", and these "charging" stations could be powered by solar or could buy grid power during low peak times and sell back during high demand times, similar to Tesla's strategy that you spelled out earlier. I have no way of knowing how economical or safe it would be, but I think it does show some potential. I think it makes sense to keep an open mind. What if the electrolytes exhibit none of the detrimental properties of lithium or sodium batteries and could be switched back to anolyte/catholyte with zero degradation just with electrical power? Wouldn't that be a positive? Anyway, thanks again. Sorry for the long post. Keep up the great work and I look forward to your future videos.
I think these makes a lot of sense when compared to hydrogen. For example, you don’t need cryogenic transport, specific pipe materials or reinforced tanks for transport.
Also, there is nothing stopping them of using an actual battery for daily commute, with that thing actually working as a range extender.
A well reasoned response, although nanoFlowcell only mention refuelling using their bi-ION electrolyte. I believe that redux flow batteries are useful means of storing energy for industry or grid balancing, but wouldn't have thought of them as a means of powering a sports car. However, if the energy density is as good as the claimed range indicates, then maybe they would be good for trucks.
I see the value of a flow battery for energy storage. But if you had one at home, it still probably would be better to use the energy in a flow battery to charge a conventional BEV rather than having to get a specialized vehicle that can only work with the fluid.
Couldnt have said it better myself Sam looks as if he is losing a bit of sleep
Thankyou. The notion of replacing the fluids as a method of recharging bothered me too.
As I understand it, a flow battery is a rechargeable battery just a Li-Ion, soduim, or any other type. The primary method of recharging is to plug it in to a source of electricity. The thing with a flow battery is that when the capacity degrades too much, that is when you swap out the fluids. It is the equivalent of the battery swap process.
I suspect the claim of just swapping the fluids in this case is to get around the criticism of EVs about charging times. It doesn't immediately follow that draining thad refilling the flow battery tanks would be as fast as filling a petrol tank.
To me, the key question is whether this company has solved the flow battery's low energy density and specific energy issue sufficiently for EV use without sacrificing other essential parameters. On that issue, I'm reserving judgement.
The thing people get wrong about electric cars is they don't run on batteries, they run on electricity. They are source agnostic. they can use batteries, solar, hydrogen even a gas powered motor or a mix of the previous for electricity.
Jason, I only hear this point of information made by naysayers of the potential for renewable energy. Photo voltaic and wind are the cheapest safest and most rapidly deployable sources of power. They need storage and batteries are only one way to accomplish this. I do not think as many people are unaware of the point you are making as you are characterizing.
Very few people are unaware of this obvious fact.
But the laws of thermodynamics a fundamental part of the equation for energy efficiency for the propulsion system. So details matter.
@@markharmon4963 thing is, solar and wind are also the most inconsistent forms of energy. Like you said, storage is a necessity however how much storage is also tricky.
That said, no one said we need actual batteries to do the job. Certainly not the same ones that go in EVs.
@@markharmon4963 You'd be a fool to believe in Li-ion Tesla megapacks as the only solution. Many forms of energy storage exist.
If you could install a fluid processor at home for a reasonable amount of money AND the vehicle had a 1000km plus realistic range, those users likely wouldn’t care about public infrastructure. Drive for a week or so, then plug in to swap out new fluids and you’re done til next time. By then, your home system has refortified the original stuff and holds it ready for the next fluid swap. I’d try it because after living with a super-short range EV for a year I’ve discovered my daily routine easily supports 90% home recharge.
I see this having potential and being the best of both worlds. Charge at home most of the time, and then on long trips exchange the fluids at the "pump" if you don't have the time to charge at a super-charger. In addition, you don't have to worry about this blowing up in flames.
Sure, companies will invest in thousands of pumps that will save 10 minutes to a some drivers.
@@fenrirgg Better to have flow battery stations than hydrogen stations. They'd be a heluva lot cheaper.
@James Van Damme Hydrogen is so bad a solution for cars that this being less bad is no big deal.
To make it clear, you cannot recharge this car at home. It will always need taking to a dedicated filling station, so it's no better than a long range Diesel car in that respect. I doubt seriously the mileage claims, unless they're hypermiling. But hypermiling a Diesel-fuelled car with a large fuel tank would also yield similar ranges.
Furthermore, this Ion flow technology is more complex than an ordinary EV, maybe more complex than an H₂ fuel cell car, requiring storage tanks for both electrolytes, two pumps for the electrolytes feeding each cell of the battery, the battery being formed from cells in which both of the liquids come into contact with electrodes, as in any battery. Then there is the electric motor system, and all of the electronics supporting all systems. Thermal regulation of the whole system is also a consideration, so radiators will still be needed. And you have to drain and refill both electrolyte tanks every time the battery is discharged. At least with a fossil car you only have to keep adding liquids. With an ordinary EV, you only have to plug it in and then forget it while you do something else.
And EV's are proven statistically to be less than 1% as likely to burn themselves out as are petrol cars. Fossil cars burning up are so frequent that they rarely make the news. Conversely, EV's burning are rare and therefore newsworthy. But a number of recent models, which are LFP battery powered, will almost never catch fire, because of the better, much less flammable, battery chemistry.
@@RWBHere Actually, flow batteries are rechargeable. Here is one source (out of hundreds) you can look up: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
Thank you covering this. I see the nanocell pro's and con's much better now. I would think a at home electrolight charger would be avalable? The quick re-fuel is a big plus for long trips. I been looking at the Porsche efuel, it has potential to be clean replacement for gas.
I am amazed at how *can't" Sam is about any company other than Tesla or BYD.
The massive industrial effort that is going to be required to build out the electrical grid to support EV charging is mind boggling.
I was wondering why this video didn't have "Game Changer" in the headline.
This tech is elegant and they can be charged like any battery ev.
Are you sure can be charged??
@@tv-ld3wv Yes.
Koenigsegg showed a car using something like this year's ago.
I see now they worked with Koenigsegg on this in the early 2000s but have split with them in 2010 to pursue according to Quant a completely different electric car that also runs on flow batteries.
This seems like a perfect fuel for long haul trucks.
yes and also for RVers. pretty much any area that requires towing heavy loads. These are the areas that the current battery technology is lacking. Also here in Australia we have vast distances between towns especially in the outback so EVs are useless for those of us that love our outback camping.
i hlghly doubt some small company has just invented some kind of miracle fuel.
Perfect for container ships, trains, power storage...
Lots of research on this in the past, but non-freezing, non-pumping electrolytes always turn out to be simpler. Plumbing and pumps always give you trouble.
Perfect but doesn't work...
The thing is ... this thing can be charged like a normal EV. The refuelling thing will happen when you are on the highway and you are in a hurry or... when you live in an apertment and you can't charge at home and you can't wait 2 hours somewhere to get your EV charged
Using flow cells for cars makes sense to me. Lots of people don't need to go above 110km/hr or need the amazing acceleration that conventional EVs have. The science behind how they got the weight down by reducing the volume of fluid is pretty damn cool.
The amount of mining of lithium we would need to facilitate EVs being majority of vehicles certainly going to come at great cost to the environment.
Having said that if the can get EV batteries to use common metals/materials then conventional EV shits all over having to make a bunch of fancy new fuel.
Thank you for bringing this up to the community. If that vehicle can really get that range it will make no sense to drive to a station. It will be just as good if they just refill it once every month or more. Gas station work only for gas cars really. Even BEV will be better with on road charging than the whole "stations" solution.
530 lbs of liquid is far less than an 1100 lbs lithium ion battery pack. Plus you get double the range from said liquid. It’s also faster to refill as opposed to charging your bev. It sounds like it’s more environmentally friendly and cheap to make. Plus the bi-ion liquid is non-toxic and non-flammable meaning storing and transporting it is far easier. Sounds like a winner to me.
that's Viking for you... He is sucking every SHIT coming out of Elon's mouth like a good fanboy he is, but dismiss every other new idea as ridiculous. 😂😂
Happy new year Sam to you and your family and thanks for this info
Happy new year!
My initial reaction to this example of the flow battery was the same, but I don’t rule it out completely. A couple of factors that will determine our path forward are:
1. The ability of the grid to modernize, including construction of major new transmission lines to power communities from large renewable energy facilities. There’s a huge backlog of projects waiting to be built in the U.S. due to lack of a viable connection to the grid. Can we overcome this “gridlock”?
2. The speed of increase in energy density using whatever battery technology evolves - lithium, sodium, or something else. Is density doubling every 18 months? If so, maybe flow batteries provide no technological advantage.
3. The political and financial power of big oil to maintain its existing business structure and convert it for the next generation of transportation. Consumers are comfortable with that model, although many hate big oil. Reminds me of the beta vs. VHS battle and how that turned out, with the 2nd best technology winning that skirmish.
I’m located in Vancouver Canada and just want too thank you for the information you provide with your videos. Wishing you all the best in 2023!
Have a look at, just have a think video on this.
Theoretically it's a really good option for a EV... And yes, this is an EV regardless that it doesn't use batteries.
A hybrid version of a vehicle which uses battery plus nano flow would be pretty good.
Don't write this off, it's clean, renewable and much better than hydrogen
Gotta be more efficient than H2, which sucks.
My company worked on a flow cell battery that used a solution of vanadium pentoxide. The vanadium solution has a huge capacity to accept electrons. The cells were used for solar farms or windmills through a "transformer" that used the solar/wind electricity to "charge" the solution - thus storing the electrons just like charging a battery. When needed the solution could be run in reverse through the transformer to power the grid. The solution would last virtually forever. The drawbacks were the size of the solution storage tanks... 8 to 10 thousand gallons. If this were applied to an electric car... there would not be a need for transferring solution - only running the solution through a transformer to recharge the depleted vanadium pentoxide. So ideally each car would have a transformer that when connected to a power source would recharge the solution in situ. The only catch would be what range would a 500 gallon tank (weighing ~4,500 pounds provide?
technically speaking they should be lighter if most of the volume is a fluid with the density of water. the problem with flow batteries is the low discharge and charge rates. but the up shot is you can replace the fluids instead of charge them directly.
I can see one application for this technology. It requires storage tanks and gas stations already have those. The station could use the technology to power level 3 chargers to reduce impact to the grid and reduce the power requirements for installing car chargers. As gas demand falls we should consider if Nano Flow or some type of flow battery could be refitting to gas stations. I think that's a much better use for it than trying to fit that system in cars.
With ultra efficient ultra light aero-dynamic Aptera Sol its PV panels recharge at 40 miles/day. That's 10 times the annual energy I need. I can store the excess for emergency trips, as backup for my house in a black out.
There are videos on TH-cam about this car that date back over 7 years . There own videos state current fueling stations can be easily retrofitted to fuel tank. It’s basically a salt water battery.
I was thinking the same thing. There is no comparison to hydrogen and how difficult it is to transport and store.
Indeed 7 years of nothing new? What's going on is there anything new and is it real this time? If it was why didn't Tesla motors buy it, after all they know how to move fast and could use lots of existing technology and infrastructure to further accelerate the transition to sustainable mobility! I really wish this could become true some day but I don't really trust that flow cell company...
@@usertogo because you really think Tesla is gonna pull up all there superchargers and switch the electrics cars power source from batteries to bi-ion fuel. No they won’t. If Tesla could have there way the would crush nano flow cell into the dirt
@@Focus_20SF Tesla also has stationary storage where these flow cells could be ideal for huge capacities. Even in a vehicle the liquids can be recharged simply electrically (I have no data how quick though) so no need to invest into fluid exchange infrastructure - however that could be an attractive aspect why the dependence based currently petrol selling industry should not jump on this if it was real...
Another genius of this technology is, you don't need new infrastructure. You can use existing infrastructure by simply retrofitting existing stations. A gas station owner can convert half or all the tanks currently holding petrol over to bi-ion solution, and then retrofit the pump hardware.
Very interesting concept. May be more practical in a country like Australia. Big cities mong distance between?
Sounds like they targeted the wrong market. If it is as good as portrayed why would they not produce long-range class 8 trucks?
Maybe it's just a demo.
If they could flog the bottled fluids in supermarkets next to bottled water in hyper markets they’d have a winner😂
Seems a winner for semi-trucks. Hydrogen is a pain in the ass as a fuel and battery is heavy and takes too long to charge.
Plus your fuel is literal water, try making that catch fire.
The "cell" would have to have multiple reaction plate to work which equals a lot of platinum as catalyst! should out price itself anyway + an ev as you said makes much more sense + the ability to drive on your own terms and charge it with your own produced electricity!!!
Wait... flow batteries use platinum? I thought that was just fuel cells.
What I don't understand, is, why don't the Petrol Stations, provide Supercharging areas, until Gas powered cars are ultimately banned.
The Charging Stations will still be selling accessories, and foods, as they do now !
What makes it possibly practical is the 1200 mile range , you don't need to fuel it that often .
Among the many reasons I like EV technology is that I would never have to visit a station again. I love the idea of charging from home. The time saved and convenience is very appealing.
How about long trips?
If you not live in an apartment that is..
Flow cells can be charged. Changing fluid is like a battery swap. I'd take that in a heartbeat with the cycle-life and reduced weight over Li-ion. The increased range is not going to hurt either.
Long trips are only done once a while. So it’s ok to have 20 mins stops every 300km. But for 95% of the time, the EV is charged at home. It saves so much time as against refilling. Specially when I see ICE cars lined up at Costco pumps for 20 mins for cheaper fuel on regular basis.
@@jassam707 Which is why a flow cell battery hybrid is such a good idea
Gorgeous car, Sam. Looks even better than the original Roadster. IMO.
A google seach says the gull winged Nanoflowcell weighs 5070 lbs about the same as a Y, supposedly with a top speed of 236mph.
Well the idea in theory is miles ahead of hydrogen which has alot of overhead. Maybe for transportation industries who want to keep equipment going 24/7 this might work. I can tell you from personal experience electric yard tractors are basically worthless in the winter. Mostly due to long charge times but if you could just swap with freshly charged electrolyte it would only be slightly inconvenient.
Viking I think you have misunderstood the flow battery
1 you charge it by connecting it to a power source JUST LIKE A NORMAL EV
2. You can ALTERNATIVELY charge it by replacing the liquid in the 2 tanks
3 It cannot catch fire
4 it lasts forever.. almost
Do more research
Hi Sam, I was very interested in this particular tube. I'm from Canada, currently live in Edmonton and most of the kids (grown up) still live in Calgary where they grew up, its their home. So far I cant see 1 EV that would get me back and fourth (820 kM, in winter time, when you use more juice per km) I'm an Engineer, and had been studying Flow Batteries for off-Grid application, I live on a small acreage. I would really be interested to produce my own Bi-Ion, even set it up so that others can enjoy it too.
So, needless to say, I hope they build a 4x4 pick-up truck based on this technology, and I wouldn't care less if it had 500 kg B-ion tanks.
Love all your shows though.
I read that the liter of bi-ion cost 0.10euros
But the cell cost 600 dollars to produce
Is this mean every time at station you will change the cell ??
Or it's just the cell filled up with electrolyte ??
Edit: the tank is about 120 litres
Also is that cell can be charged with electricity like normal EVs till the liquid consumed or it totally consumed after passing the 1200 miles range??
You're looking even more tired mate. I hope you're holding up OK with all you have going on at home. Best wishes to the whole family! ♥️
There's an Australian company called redflow. Look it up.
Maybe cab companies could be interested, or bus companies. Cabs could refuel at their bases, busses could drive from base to base... Eventually people would wonder if they could own such a car, then things could change quickly ?
Looks like an updated smart roadster
I understood these flowcell cars can be charged at home or also from superchargers. OR it also can have its fluid replaced for an instant charge. I understood it wasn’t ONLY from swapping the fuel. Which by the way the fuel is 100% recyclable at the pump. I also see a nice transition (in theory) from oil companies wishing to convert corporate owned pump stations so they may be interested in owning this technology in addition to big auto.
i ahd been researching flow battery technology for cars. This should have been the first path personally but there are more challenges to overcome in terms of charging.
If all gas stations switch from gas to salt water then job is done. I wouldn't discount this technology. They can just concert fluids. It's not hard at all.
No mention of what the end byproduct is from this process.
You recharge the electrolyte, and get going again. Nothing is consumed.
@@jamesvandamme7786 At one point they spoke of refilling the tanks.
@@ImBooX2 But how do they recharge the chemicals? It's probably the reverse of the discharge, but probably slower. If they just landfill them and mine new ones that ain't ever gonna fly.
@@jamesvandamme7786 They are not letting out a lot of information, I have looked. They say the electrolyte can be recharged but nothing is said about what that takes as in how long. I can't believe hundreds of gallons of depleted electrolyte can be quickly charged. They have also said the depeleted electrolyte can be pumped out and replaced with fresh electrolyte.
Any time there is a chemical reaction there is a byproduct and degredation of the electrolyte. Just like the batteries used in electric cars now. I have found nothing discussing that.
Gracias hace ya 8 años que no sé nada de esta tecnología ...por fin ..gracias
this is Revolutionary technology for sure
If one only put about 1/10 of the total fluids in the car, the acceleration would be significantly improved, with a range probably more like 100+ miles.
Flow batteries maybe the optimum solution for large scale storage. I have wondered why this technology is not be adopted for ships semis, trucks etc.
Flow batteries can be configured with primary or secondary cells. This offers a wide range of recharging options. For example, one is to hold the recharge liquids at home. . Another is to make a home based recharge station secondary style. Recharging may be their least problem. We need a lot more information.
This "technology" is simple nonsense...
I have questions.
1.) Does the fuel dispense into the air like exhaust and that's why it needs to be refueled or does the fuel get used and needs to be pumped out and replaced for new fuel?
2.0) If the fuel des need to get pumped out is the spent fuel recycled or capable of being recycled.
I'm not worried about infrastructure. With the ability to go 1000 miles you don't need as many facilities in the beginning. I'm not worried about not being able to refuel at home if I only need to refuel every few weeks.
The infrastructure from existing gas stations could already be perfect for these nano flow cars. The transition might not be that difficult. As the demand for ice cars go away, this could be a reasonable use for all of those gas stations. Perhaps even cheaper than demolishing the infrastructure all together for full on ev stations.
I read about this technology years ago. I don't think that the fuel is "consumed". I think it is some sort of ionised liquid and needs to be either recharged somehow in the tank or pumped out and refreshed with new fully charged fluid. So it really is a battery - just in liquid form. The big advantage would be that the fuel can be endlessly recharged and so there is no waste, and refuelling the car would not really take longer than current ICE vehicles take to fill up. Recharge time is still the biggest problem with EVs. I've been waiting to see if anything came of this idea.
The possibility that this car reaches production is nano.
While covering this please cover Red Flow which is a Australian Flow Cell company. They are not, today, claiming a car in the future but battery storage for home/business/grid.
It seems to me that if the flow battery were charged like any other battery, with no need to frequently replace the electrolyte fluid, that it would be superior to a solid or gel type battery. The fluid opens up vastly higher energy density, while the electrodes become the "engine."
A good overview and a fair degree of healthy scepticism on Nano Flow cell energy, but there is still that "Tesla" bias that creeps in. Maybe apply that same degree of scepticism to Tesla's vapourware and the channel would have more respect beyond the Tesla fan base.
It depends. Is the process reversible, so you can charge at home, maybe with solar, most of the time? Then replacing the juice would be like going to a fast charging station, or a battery swap station. The juice tanks might not have to be that large then if you only go less than 100 miles per day. The electric producing fuel cell would be almost identical to using hydrogen, but less complicated (maybe). It's promising - I would like more info.
There has been a flow cell sports car shown at car shows in Geneva for quite a few years promising production ‘next year’. Consequently I am very suspicious.
I believe that was this precise vehicle. This is a Swiss-based company and from what I've read, they first appeared in said show back in the 20-teens. Don't have the exact year, but something like 2015 seems to ring a bell.
The electrolyte in a Quant doesn't go away. Once it is discharged, it still remains in the tanks where it can be pumped out for recharging and exchanged for fully charged electrolyte, thus giving the car a recharge time as quick as an ICE car, and you can put a recharging station in your garage without a high amperage circuit because the electrolyte can charge during the week while you drive out your 600 mile range. The flow cell has no fire danger, doesn't degrade, doesn't self discharge, and has no expensive and rare materials. That should be enough to convince anyone. Tesla had better get on board or they will be left behind.
This is a single issue solution. It solves some of the range anxieties that converts from gasoline cars often experience. Of course it could only solve this issue if there was to be enormous investment in relevant infrastructure (sound familiar?). Battery cars are improving all the time. Charging infrastructure is improving all the time. For the vast majority of journeys 90+% there is no advantage to a huge range capability and a significant disadvantage if there is no supporting infrastructure. Electricity is an utterly ubiquitous energy, available everywhere, globally. Every house, street, business uses electricity it’s available 24 hrs a day. Petrochemical energy companies are dreaming if they think that they can put the battery genie back in the bottle solely to protect their profits
Exchanging fluid would be risky, contamination would be possible
Thanks for the coverage on this new take on power delivery. I imagine that fueling up would first require the spent fluids to be evacuated and collected before new fluid electrolyte replaces the old. Two step process. Sounds messy.
check out RedFlow in Australia, Mr. Viking.
Flow batteries are interesting, however they are behind LiFe batteries in power, weight, energy and cost. I would LOVE to see competitive flow batteries. For very large batteries, they may be able to be made cost effective. Many of the flow batteries are rechargeable - RedFlow ZnBr are. I'll look into the system but the RedFlow tech is in the 3kw-5kw range for a car sized system. That's the power needed for an ebike.
These would be wonderful for large boats if they could output 100kW and store 10MWH or more per cubic meter (1000kg) in a stack package of a cubic meter or less. The nice thing is that you could either add more Zinc/Bromide to the existing water, centrifuge out the Zinc Oxide, or use new fresh/sea water, thus giving sufficient range. Work boats that could use this tech would need several hundred hours of range at 8knots.
Looking at their website, they have a product called a 'quant 48' that claims to be able to power 4 140kW motors at 48 volts. Doing the math, that's nearly 3000 amps per motor. The cables would be pretty big, and the heating loss would be immense.
If they integrated the motor and reactor, and just fed the liquids in, that might work, but a 140kW reactor would be huge using existing tech (like RedFlow). But this company is using 'Nano Technology. Just because it's Nano, you still have to obey the laws of physics.
Their website is confusing, absent any real technical detail and full of pictures and videos. I'd need much more detailed info on this before investing. Beware.
Sounds better than LFP assuming it's affordable.
You can reverse the flow of the battery and charge the electrolytic fluid at home at the same rate as a lithium battery. May be difficult to supercharge the battery but this is where replacing the fluid comes in, this is not simple as you have to pump two liquids out and then pump two liquids in. The discharged liquids can be recharged at the filling station, so no need to cart the liquid around except for initial stocking and balancing the levels between different stations. I don't see that they could get a 320kW flow cell in the car (4 x 80kW motors), I suspect they running a sub-100kW unit with a lithium-ion battery for peak use, like a Hybrid, and may have issues with maintaining top speed. This is a very promising alternative to a lithium-ion battery but the efficiency is only around 75% whereas the lithium-ion battery is around 90%, much better than hydrogen at 38%. Added to this, is that this is more complex so may not make sense for most cars but may be great for trucks and semis as their batteries are a lot bigger as they need more storage, and have higher usage.
Yes, this is what I read about years ago. Pump out the spent fuels at the recharging station where it is recharged on-site. No need for expensive superchargers, although that would depend on the operator. Also since the fuel is not toxic or flammable, the infrastructure for the recharging station is probably much cheaper than a regular petrol station.
I don't think it is necessarily too complex for cars - pumping is pretty easy. I actually think this is quite an exciting technology.
That Range claim is awesome-can it be possible?? Might work for large trucks?? Will have to be cheaper than battery offerings?
The range is the most interesting in this technology
I'd rather have a Nanoflowcell car than one with batteries. I would NEVER have to worry about the life of the battery pack or how to deal with the batteries once they are no longer viable. Also, since I live in Texas, the Quantino or Quant-e vehicles would be the ONLY four seater "EVs" that would really work here in Texas when traveling long distances. The Aptera comes to mind, BUT that's a three wheel TWO-seater. You would NOT be adding the PRICE of the battery pack when you buy the Quantino, just the price of two huge plastic tanks to hold the BION fluids. I think Nanoflowcell should ABSOLUTELY exploit that fact of their business model to no end. Imagine the price of a Tesla model MINUS the price of the battery pack and thermal management. 🤔Sure you have to "refuel" but it would be like the current gas or diesel model, but the range of the vehicles could be drastically better. Now, if Nanoflowcell also markets this technology in other markets such as home generators, RV applications, etc it could be a game changer. Power outage of the grid? No problem the Nanoflocell generator to the rescue! 🦸
What's the freezing point of the 2 fuel liquids? Would they efficiently insulate the containers and use electricity from the system to generate heat to keep the liquids from freezing? I wonder how efficient that would be? If the liquids do freeze, topping off the fuel tanks might problematic without warming them up some how.
if the electrolyte weighs about the same as water per liter that's only about 250kg. How much does a li ion 100kw battery weigh ? My guess is about double at 500kg. Hope this tech takes off.
It's aqueous, so it would weigh maybe a little more than water, assuming the aqueous solutions have somewhat higher densities.
Lots of questions: What is this liquid made of? Is it toxic as you use it? How is it produced, stored, shipped?
Deep secret.
Flow batteries already exist. Most use some sort of salt solution that is water based and not flammable. I've seen videos where when they pour the electrolyte on an open flame, it puts it out. I can't speak for all of the chemistries, but in at least one video, they said that they can basically pour the electrolyte down the drain, after straining for solids and adjusting the pH.
It's based on saltwater, according to the video. Not toxic, but I do wonder about acidity and whether or not a leak could be dangerous.
I'll buy one in a nano second once they are available in the USA.
Maybe for trucking or shipping
You can't compare this to hydrogen which is hard to store and transport. Pumping the sustainably changed anolite and catholite from a flow battery into an EV and having it discharge the two liquids to create power might be a fantastic idea. Only that flow batteries are low density, so maybe they have invented some new tech to make it work.
Or could be bullshit, but we'll stay tuned.
The concept of storing electricity in the fluids instead of lithium batteries seems to allow for high energy density. That would be desirable. For me the question is what round trip efficiency we would get when considering the two fluids being produced from renewable energy and how environment friendly any of the process steps are. If these fluids are offered at any gas station in the US, why would I worry?
The guys who would go for this are more concerned with downtime than fuel cost.Time is money for truckers, trains, ships.
Huge if true.
33 gallons is actually 150 litres or 128 litres if using American Gallons as for some reason Americans don't like to be International, they think they are buying a gallon of fuel at the Gas station but in reality it's almost a litre less than the rest of the world get when buying a gallon.
I found this out when buying Gallon containers on Amazon, I ended up with quite a few American gallon containers for free as they had to give me my money back from false advertising as I am in Australia and was buying things on Amazon Australia, now if you look at Containers on Amazon it will say if they are American or International :)
So if they have 2x33 gallon tanks and the electrolyte has the approximate density of water, that would be 8.33 lbs per gallon (33 x 8.33 = 274.89), or roughly 550 lbs for both tanks. By comparison, the batteries of the Tesla model 3 is nearly double that at 1060 lbs (482 kg) and yields significantly less range. To be fair, the 550 lbs of electrolyte does not take into account the weight of the entire power system such as membranes, discharge plates, etc.., however it suggests you can significantly scale this down to ranges that might be more practical and weigh less. Also, you are assuming that they can only be recharged by replacing the fluids, however most flow batteries can refresh their electrolytes by reversing the flow of electricity, basically charging them. Check my previous comment, which was more detailed. I think there is enough here to at least keep an open mind. Again, all my best to your family and best wishes for positive outcomes and thanks for all that you do.
P.S. Metric conversions: 33 gallons is about 125 liters, so 250 liters for both. As we know, 1 liter = 1000 grams or 1 kg (roughly 2.2 lbs). Gotta love the metric system, btw. So 250 liters of fresh water weighs 250 kg (550LBS). Also, I looked up the weight of salt water per gallon. It's about 8.6 lbs per gallon, so 66 gal would weigh roughly 570 lbs or 258 kg.
This was originally touted as a saltwater 'battery', this is very similar to the saline gradient technology developed by the Dutch firm Wetsus.
Somebody may have already said it. But what happens to the two fluids once they've spent their energy. Does it flow into a waste tank? Does it get analyzed and tossed into the atmosphere? Have heard of the stuff in the past but usually they leave that detail out. I guess when you refill your tanks they pump out the waist. But they never go that far in explanation.
I think they answer that question on their web site. Water evaporates and molecules gathers in filter which needs to be replaced every 10,000 km. Also interesting question would be the lowest temperature the tanks can operate in.
They say the vehicle will have a long hose on board. You will dump used liquid into the nearest river or lake.
When Musk built out his charging network, he wasn't really building out a network in the way, say, that the first gas stations were a network: a network of localized pumps, supplied by a network of distributors, taking fuel from a network of tankers, and a network of refineries, and a network of oil fields to supply the base crude. That was a network! Something as large and complex would likely be necessary in the nanoflow (or hydrogen) proposal. It is a huge undertaking for a technology that very likely will be outdated sooner rather than later. In the case of the Musk network, the electricity was already there. He just provided the plug. It is a far simpler and more elegant solution. It involves minimal cost and it has tremendous opportunity for development and improvement: local storage -- perhaps using flow batteries -- and local generation using whatever resources are locally available.
They've been around for years, at least 2014 with the quant sportlimusine, maybe this time they get to production
another "game changer" that will fizzle out
Interesting concept and it may not catch on. I think it's wrong to discount it strictly because you can't charge it at home. Current gasoline cars can't be refueled at home I mean for the most part. I'm still waiting to see what people who live in metropolitan areas with on street parking only going to charge overnight? I don't see a feasible answer suggested yet for this. If full adoption is to be needed for electric cars someday this will need a solution.
Also, there's no definitive proof that you CAN'T recharge it at home. Many flow batteries can refresh their electrolytes by reversing the current, like rechargeable batteries, which is why they are being developed (and currently used) as storage solutions for renewable energies, such as wind and solar.
I would like to purchase this vehicle even if its out of the concept.
How much does the 2 seater car cost and how much does the fuel cost?
Bi-Ion is just a fancy way of saying salt water one it negatively charged and the other positively charged the tech is not new been around for at lest a 100 years it just works and works well.
This looks much better and promising solution than running cars on thousands of laptop batteries .
The problems with flow batteries:
1. Driving dynamics will be different due to that much liquid always sloshing around, adding inertia and making cornering difficult. Unlike regular fuel, it doesn't reduce in volume as there is no burning of them.
2. While it may not need recharging in the conventional sense, the liquids need to be reversed to "recharge" the battery, requiring electricity and time. Replacement of the liquids is not often but that also takes time since the tanks have to be drained to empty before refilling them.
3. They require some power to run the motors to make the liquids flow and produce the electricity. So you get lower efficiency since some of the stored energy goes to running those motors.
4. The reason flow batteries aren't around even as stationary storage (which they are most suited for) is that the liquids are corrosive.
5. The flow battery mechanism adds more parts and complexity, including more points of potential failure and more maintenance costs.
You sound like the chairman of Toyota on EV's when it comes to this Flow Cell technology. There will be competing technologies. I say, give them all a chance to prove themselves. EV's are way ahead of the rest when it comes to cars. But ships and airliners need H2. Industrial processes need H2. H2 can work in the existing natural gas infrastructures and reach into homes and businesses. There IS a future for green H2. It may spill over into cars as well next to pure EV's. Technology has not come to a halt. It will continue to evolve.
If everything about this flow cell is true, why would they not use them in trucks first where the weight be not much of a factor? Or else they have to work on making a smaller version of the cell.
WOW ... to another innovation. Wondering how much that electrolyte fuel will cost; and if this new tech will also be a source for home electricity.
If it eleminates the Lithium choke hold; if the overall vehicle weighs less, if it has range or fast fueling; sounds great but where did the material go that needs to be replaced? Into thin air?
I heard about this QUANT company from Liechtenstein about 8 years ago, but then they disappeared.
I wonder about the emissions?
Heavy duty trucks and construction gear.
I have to partially disagree with the whole thing of hydrogen vehicles not taking off. For me it seems like it would not be practical for the average car. However, it seems perfect for large scale vehicles like Trucks/Semis, Cargo Ships, extra-large machinery and construction vehicles, some other ones like that. Powering those commercial/utility vehicles using batteries wouldn't work out very well because batteries would not scale very well to those large vehicles.
Why this technology is not popularize since more than 8 years of introduction.? It is very promising though.
Ill be sticking with battery electric. Lfp