There is lots of room for improvement. We left a couple feet of hoist short but raising the entire sail should be even better for light wind. We need to make some adjustments to the sheetlet lengths and attachment points. It’s also probable that we will add some stiffness to the front of the lower two battens. Can’t wait for the bad weather to let up so we can go again…. And again…. And again. Southbound.
Thanks. It was a fine feeling. Dreamy day. I’m sure the Bay will offer up plenty of breezy testing days too. But now that we have a base to begin tuning, it should be fun.
A lot has happened to the sail since this was made. Battens and yard are much stiffer now, sheetlets are more correct and we know more about how it works. I am a lifetime sailor, from high performance dinghies to world record speeds on windsurfers. All the concepts of western sails have to be left behind. The way the sail sets and twists and performs to weather in a breeze seem to do fine without a vang. Preventer also. Not wanting to gybe with the balanced rig. Mostly everything about how it is working is challenging my long held ways of thinking. We’re not trying to win, just to finish easily. Thanks for the suggestion though.
@@rosiegreddogyachts4135 I rigged a lightweight vang on my experimental sail, something like on an Optimist pram and it really helped to keep everything tight.
The battens are 100% carbon in the aft 2/3 and glass epoxy in the front for flex and strength combined. The parts are joiners with machined scarf joins inside long ferrules, same as they do on yachts. Having the battens in sections gave us lots of flexibility to choose stiffness. All just a wild ass guess though. The pockets hold the battens, which would normally be flat on the sail, perpendicular to the sail surface, a kind of rib like thing. Loaded in that plane the battens are about ten times stiffer and twice as strong as when they are flat loaded. They are 23’ long. After sailing we will be making lots of adjustments and then try again, maybe in more wind. We want to know how it all works before we go changing too much. My life has been all about high tension, high performance sailing from dinghies, ocean racers, then years of windsurfing speed chasing. What i see from the deck and cockpit is very odd looking to me, yet the images and video from off the boat showed something much more like what i have imagined… kind of a relief actually. Looks pretty good.
Have a look at this - reddogyachts.com/red-dog-blog/f/are-there-blue-whales - there is a good photo of the battens, loaded from the mast overlap point to the leech end, with them laid flat on the floor. it was not possible to bend them more than this without them wanting to flip up. we had to capture them carefully. no way will this light weight scheme work with the battens flat on the sail. we will see how much real camber gets in the sail body once we can get some real load on the rig. but in any case, hose battens act very stiff in that orientation. and the 'rib' thing is insignificant in the scale . not to mention that the whole laminar flow thing, all the Bernoulli stuff kind of goes out the window with the junk rig. i think you have to go to imagining something in nature as an example. one of the interesting things to me is the way the head spar appears to twist around the mast and aligns with the apparent wind in a counter intuitive way, at least for me. still... looks pretty good.
20230116, Stavanger: Forgive me if I sound patronizing - I do want you to have success, and I think you are pretty close now. However; bendy battens were a big hype in Britain in the early nineties. Problem was, in light winds, when one wants plenty of camber, they stayed straight, leaving the sail as a lame duck. In strong winds, they could end up with too much camber. I had my first 32sqm JR in 1990. The sail was shipped over from a sailmaker in Britain. It was perfectly flat and the boat kind of died as we headed up for upwind work. In 1991 I modified the (aluminium) battens with hinges, giving a constant 10% camber. Great success, but I feared for the integrity of the mechanics. From 1994 I have been making my sails with straight battens and camber (bagginess) sewn into each panels. These sails have served me well and make the rig powerful, even in light headwinds. In case you end up dissatisfied with your present sail, I suggest you have a closer look at the cambered panel JR, as used on my present Marieholm IF, Ingeborg. You’ll find it at the end of this write-up: goo.gl/vzGLzi Good luck!
@@Arkverne No forgiveness needed. I always seek every bit of information without prejudice and then make a decision to act. I love the JRA and have used the resource for many years of dreaming and drawing. And your document is also a treasure of details that will help as we move along. After reading practical Junk Rig for the tenth time, redlining and highlighting, i came to the conclusion that some things had worked better than others and stuck with the most basic. This sail is large and very light, it should be reefed pretty quickly, and even in the lightest wind, seems to take a decent camber. Not sure how that will translate to more loaded condition, but I’m sure we will be working that out as we go along. And the thing i really love about this, similar to the windsurf rig, there are no rules that say one thing is right or wrong. The hand held rig changed everything about what worked best regularly. One thing i do know though, there is nothing without angle of attack. And the junk concept gives you the best control of that. And a sheet of plywood will give you lift at low angles, just tough to keep it doing that… what the camber is for. As for using built-in camber i will wait on that. But thank you for the great information. That was all in the research we did along the way. We just decided to go with what we have. We’ll be keeping on with updates about how it works. Maybe our batten thing will be an answer. They are huge stiff when unloaded, then hopefully stiff enough when loaded. Thank you
looking good barry. Zach from Maui. z
Great video, great boat, that's all I got! 😂👍⛵⛵⛵
Looks pretty good
There is lots of room for improvement. We left a couple feet of hoist short but raising the entire sail should be even better for light wind. We need to make some adjustments to the sheetlet lengths and attachment points. It’s also probable that we will add some stiffness to the front of the lower two battens. Can’t wait for the bad weather to let up so we can go again…. And again…. And again. Southbound.
Nice 👍
An impressive build and rig. Looks pretty good indeed. I can't wait to see how she handles a stiff breeze as well. Grateful for your postings!
Thanks. Once this nasty weather clears up, will give her another go.
Great to see the first sail Barry!
Thanks. It was a fine feeling. Dreamy day. I’m sure the Bay will offer up plenty of breezy testing days too. But now that we have a base to begin tuning, it should be fun.
Great stuff.
Deserves 1080p at least.
A vang in the middle of the boom would help a lot.
A lot has happened to the sail since this was made. Battens and yard are much stiffer now, sheetlets are more correct and we know more about how it works. I am a lifetime sailor, from high performance dinghies to world record speeds on windsurfers. All the concepts of western sails have to be left behind. The way the sail sets and twists and performs to weather in a breeze seem to do fine without a vang. Preventer also. Not wanting to gybe with the balanced rig. Mostly everything about how it is working is challenging my long held ways of thinking. We’re not trying to win, just to finish easily. Thanks for the suggestion though.
@@rosiegreddogyachts4135 I rigged a lightweight vang on my experimental sail, something like on an Optimist pram and it really helped to keep everything tight.
Is that an Aluminum hull ?
Foam/e-glass/vinylester all resin infused, fully bonded and tabbed into monocoque. Lots of carbon in key load areas
20230116: Question to Rosie G crew: Do you rely on bendy battens to get some camber in the sail?
The battens are 100% carbon in the aft 2/3 and glass epoxy in the front for flex and strength combined. The parts are joiners with machined scarf joins inside long ferrules, same as they do on yachts. Having the battens in sections gave us lots of flexibility to choose stiffness. All just a wild ass guess though.
The pockets hold the battens, which would normally be flat on the sail, perpendicular to the sail surface, a kind of rib like thing. Loaded in that plane the battens are about ten times stiffer and twice as strong as when they are flat loaded. They are 23’ long.
After sailing we will be making lots of adjustments and then try again, maybe in more wind. We want to know how it all works before we go changing too much.
My life has been all about high tension, high performance sailing from dinghies, ocean racers, then years of windsurfing speed chasing. What i see from the deck and cockpit is very odd looking to me, yet the images and video from off the boat showed something much more like what i have imagined… kind of a relief actually. Looks pretty good.
Have a look at this - reddogyachts.com/red-dog-blog/f/are-there-blue-whales - there is a good photo of the battens, loaded from the mast overlap point to the leech end, with them laid flat on the floor. it was not possible to bend them more than this without them wanting to flip up. we had to capture them carefully. no way will this light weight scheme work with the battens flat on the sail. we will see how much real camber gets in the sail body once we can get some real load on the rig. but in any case, hose battens act very stiff in that orientation. and the 'rib' thing is insignificant in the scale . not to mention that the whole laminar flow thing, all the Bernoulli stuff kind of goes out the window with the junk rig. i think you have to go to imagining something in nature as an example.
one of the interesting things to me is the way the head spar appears to twist around the mast and aligns with the apparent wind in a counter intuitive way, at least for me.
still... looks pretty good.
20230116, Stavanger:
Forgive me if I sound patronizing - I do want you to have success, and I think you are pretty close now.
However; bendy battens were a big hype in Britain in the early nineties. Problem was, in light winds, when one wants plenty of camber, they stayed straight, leaving the sail as a lame duck. In strong winds, they could end up with too much camber.
I had my first 32sqm JR in 1990. The sail was shipped over from a sailmaker in Britain. It was perfectly flat and the boat kind of died as we headed up for upwind work. In 1991 I modified the (aluminium) battens with hinges, giving a constant 10% camber. Great success, but I feared for the integrity of the mechanics.
From 1994 I have been making my sails with straight battens and camber (bagginess) sewn into each panels. These sails have served me well and make the rig powerful, even in light headwinds.
In case you end up dissatisfied with your present sail, I suggest you have a closer look at the cambered panel JR, as used on my present Marieholm IF, Ingeborg. You’ll find it at the end of this write-up:
goo.gl/vzGLzi
Good luck!
@@Arkverne No forgiveness needed. I always seek every bit of information without prejudice and then make a decision to act. I love the JRA and have used the resource for many years of dreaming and drawing. And your document is also a treasure of details that will help as we move along. After reading practical Junk Rig for the tenth time, redlining and highlighting, i came to the conclusion that some things had worked better than others and stuck with the most basic. This sail is large and very light, it should be reefed pretty quickly, and even in the lightest wind, seems to take a decent camber. Not sure how that will translate to more loaded condition, but I’m sure we will be working that out as we go along. And the thing i really love about this, similar to the windsurf rig, there are no rules that say one thing is right or wrong. The hand held rig changed everything about what worked best regularly. One thing i do know though, there is nothing without angle of attack. And the junk concept gives you the best control of that. And a sheet of plywood will give you lift at low angles, just tough to keep it doing that… what the camber is for.
As for using built-in camber i will wait on that. But thank you for the great information. That was all in the research we did along the way. We just decided to go with what we have.
We’ll be keeping on with updates about how it works. Maybe our batten thing will be an answer. They are huge stiff when unloaded, then hopefully stiff enough when loaded.
Thank you
Good!
Best wishes from Stavanger, Norway.
Arne Kverneland