Why are TfL fares so high?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ธ.ค. 2024
- I’m sure people will actually watch this video before commenting.
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It’s the UK which is expensive, not just London
Compared to the rest of the world TfL fares might be expensive but compared to the rest of the UK, they are very cheap. The standard bus fare in London is £1.70 (iirc) but this is £2 in the rest of the UK and averaged much more (I remember paying £3.60 for a single) until the £2 flat fare was introduced
TfL also have a simplified ticketing and centralised planning through Oyster/contactless where the rest of the country has a complicated patchwork of private operators which doesn’t integrate with rail/Metro/tram etc meaning you often need to buy two separate tickets if you need to change modes
That’s true, but they still have a TON of room to improve in terms of fares and ride quality. It’s probably beyond the control of TfL at this point
Absolutely right. If I want to go see my father only 20 miles away, I have to take a bus by one operator from my house to my nearest train station, then a train to his nearest train station, then a bus by a different operator to his house. A return journey like this in a day won't leave me with any change from twenty quid. You can cover that distance for three quid in London.
until you get to the edges of london
London bus driver here. The standard fare is £1.75. Sorry to be a pedant 😉 London bus fares are super cheap compared to the rest of the country. If you travel just by bus, you will not pay more than £5.25 per day (0430 - 0429 the following day)
@@tigglepig thought it had gone to £1.85/£5.50
I live in Zone 6 and work at London Bridge. I pay £6.50 if I get off at Zone 2, so I do, and walk the extra 30 mins to work. If I went from Zone 6 to Zone 1, it costs me £11.60. It's insanity!
And people in New York complain about a $2.90 flat fare...
@@dexterdugarjr.3217 But in New York public transport is for the disabled and/or homeless. For them it's a lot of money...
@rudolfzweep8 Public transport is for the disabled and homeless in every country, one of the main benefits of public transport is its accessibility. That's what makes Londons fares so egregious
@@rudolfzweep8 Um.....most homeless work 9-5 and I am one of them. Second, the disabled work as well (Access-A-Ride, while not the best, is also an option). How does this discount the point though when the majority don't fall into either demographic. $2.90 is CHEAP. $3 can't buy much else here
@@rudolfzweep8 Also, the homeless are City Hall's issue to deal with, not the MTA. I don't pay for the subway to be a shelter. I pay for it to be transportation. And as a freelancer that gets damn near 30% of my check taken (we pay slightly more since we are employees AND employers. Dumb as hell imo) and yet, new shelters are continuously blocked by NIMBY's, exacerbating the problem. The issue with New Yorkers is they don't understand what that $2.90 gets them and how good of a value it truly is.
TfL had an operating grant from government until 2018 when it was withdrawn. An interesting side effect of removing the grant is that tube fares now have to subsidise road works on TfL's main roads. A subsidy from fare payers to drivers.
Funny how the withdrawal of the grant happened to coincide with a Labour London mayor being elected isn’t it? Tory government were happy to pay a grant when Boris Johnson was mayor.
And unlike other parts of the country London gets no funding from the Vehicle tax which is supposed to support road maintenance.
Why should the rest of the country subside transport in London? Quite right the subsidy was cut.
@@loftlegacy You’re looking at this the wrong way. ALL the UK’s public transport should be properly funded by central government.
I never realised buses ran on rails, not roads...
One thing you should note is Hong Kong has very little government subsidization because the transport operators basically build malls on top of stations and use the rent for themselves
MTR in Hong kong also has a massive property portfilo not just shopping mails on top of/near stations. Aswell as running other transport network in other countries like the Elizabeth line and south west railway in London
also worth mentioning is the fact that the government also indirectly subsidizes MTR through the the practically free granting of plots to building stations and the properties on it (the reason behind KCR winning the Sha tin to central link bid)
@@cyberhero2009I have described it as, “A property company that happens to run trains.”
Similar happens in Japan. Some Uk train stations are pretty much in a field with a car park next to it. No reason to visit. We ought to axe WHSmiths and Costa from train stations and instead foster stores selling local delicacies and regional specialties - as they do in Japan. Many people travel by train in Japan just to visit the station and try a famous regional Ramen etc. There’s no passion or vision in the UK, no national pride, just a constant grind and invasion.
That is the indirect subsidy part. Rights to a lot of TOD basically for free.
I now wonder how the bus companies survive on fares only.
Whato Jago,
I enjoyed your irony. On the word "modernisation" we see some 1938 stock arriving at Croxley. This is the type of thing which makes me watch the channel so much.
As a Northerner the fares feel incredibly cheap, though maybe that's just because I expect to be losing a kidney every time I buy a pint.
And without that kidney, dealing with the pint will be a lot harder...
You won't loose that kidney on 1 pint, unless there is a deal between Cafe and hospital 😊
Don't forget to run very fast for the bus. Like a certain gentleman in one of Jago Hazard's videos. Oh wait... your kidneys!
I agree, try living in rural Essex with no practical public transport, then you would be grateful for what you have.
The cheapest return fare from my local station to my nearest hub station (York) is £24. What's the tfl daily cap again?
"Fares Fair was a public policy advocated by the Labour Party administration of the Greater London Council (GLC), then led by Ken Livingstone. The policy of low public transport fares was implemented in 1981, but was later ruled to be illegal in the courts and rescinded the following year." Wikipedia.
Didn't it start in South yorkshire
@@sglenny001 Yes, but the People's Republic were going to go much further than the GLC ever intended to. South Yorkshire intended to hold fares at the 1974 level until inflation meant that it cost more to collect the fares than they were actually collecting, at which point they would have made the buses completely free.
West Midlands PTE were also starting to reduce fares, but when the GLC jumped on the bandwagon a bunch of London Tories got upset that the plebs were going to get cheap LT bus rides (and of course they objected to anything the GLC did on principle, even when it was Tory run); the resulting court cases screwed the cheap fares in the rest of the country as well as in London.
It also led a lot of money going into travel subside and not into investment.
Personally I don't think fares on TFL are too bad, whereas national rail fares are extortionate.
Not to mention the bus fares, the £2 cap seems pretty good at first (and it's definitely better than what we'd have otherwise), until you realise not all bus operators have to abide by it, and since so many bus routes have been cut over the years it's rare a single bus will get you to where you're going anyway. Makes the £1.75 hopper look like a fantasy land lol
As a rail commuter into London I think TFL is a bargain by comparison
People who complain about TFL fares know nothing about the suffering of those who travel on NR....
Not only are NR fares appalling but the service is terrible, that is according to a few relations of mine who have no choice but to use that method of transport - overcrowded trains and big delays are the main complaints.
If you travel in one zone, I think it's really cheap.
I feel incredibly lucky to live in London, where public transport is privatised but not deregulated. Compared with other areas in the UK, the fares seem reasonable and the service reliable.
If it was 'de-regulated- it'd be even better.
@@stevenfarrall3942explain your reasoning behind that as almost every sector that's fully privatised is a rip off to customers with little choice
The Tube isn't privatised.
@@keithparker1346 Tsk. Your assertion as to the choice available of goods and services in what's left of freedom and the exchange economy is evidentially a total fallacy. And as regards railways this channels content is a testament to the pioneering, privately financed innovation in mass transit that took place in London and the UK in the 19th century.
In fact it is the government 'economy' that has an absence of choice (it is a de facto rationing system), is massively inefficient, bloated with bureaucracy and largely utterly unaccountable.
@@stevenfarrall3942 utter nonsense
I'm a Canadian, living in Ottawa. A couple of years ago, we finally got light rail and it has been a lot less than what was hoped for. Technical problems and that little hiccup known as COVID have meant that the system has been a PR nightmare. Add to that, buses that rarely run to schedule and you're left with a great big mess that even Mr. Yerkes couldn't fix. Perhaps TfL fares are "high", but at least you've got a very comprehensive system that meets the public's needs--even if it's not 100% perfect.
Be thankful that’s one mistake Ottawa has made that doesn’t get felt all across the country!
The same could be said for every other large town/city in the UK really. London is pretty unique (but investment has been dropping over time even there)
@bighamster2 Ottawa's LRT has been an absolute fiasco. Facebook doesn't give me enough space to list off all the problems, but it's been a textbook example of how to NOT run a railway.
@@BulletNoseBettyout of curiosity I looked it up, comments are limmited to 10,000 characters. As a fellow Ontarian, I am aware thats not enough over the history of the drama haha.
(PS this is YT not FB 😜 )
"A lot less than we hoped for."
Possibly still better than Birmingham UK, which has a grand total of one tram line (West Midlands Metro), which once the initial phase (mainly running along a disused rail line) was opened, took multiple years and many millions of pounds to extend through the city centre, a few hundred metres at a time. Oh, and a large section of track through the city centre had worn out and needed to be replaced after only five years. A spur line is in the works, but will have a huge gap in the middle for several years while the HS2 station is built. Never mind the tram fleet being taken out of service for several years as cracks had developed in the bogie box.
I live in Luxembourg. Here, all public transport is free. The political view is that it is cheaper than making people pay for it (because lower usage means more road maintenance, more pollution and associated health issues, more congestion, less economic activity, less social interaction such as children visiting their friends or grandparents).
Some viewers may not agree, but they did the study and this is what they believe based on it.
I am a Scot who has lived in London for over 25 years and constantly amazes me how long Londoner feel short changed when they vast amounts of public transport and lots of interchanges which can be can accessed with oyster and contactless travel vast distances across Greater London with daily and weekly caps. Having sampled transport across Scotland and the north of England Londoners don’t realise what they have. Always enjoy your videos 😃🏴👍
Compare to other capital and global big cities. Stop comparing London to the North or Scotland.
Londoner here,
I have been to many different parts of the UK and it is safe to say I am never complaining about TfL ever again!
@@neiloflongbeck5705 I think it's quite clear they mean major capitals and world cities outside the UK. Are you just being obtuse?
@@neiloflongbeck5705yeesh. London’s the third biggest city in Europe. More than double the population of Berlin, three times Paris. It’s a megacity. You’re comparing apples with raisins.
@@neiloflongbeck5705 🙄
As someone from Hong Kong I would like to raise a point that transportation company (namely MTR who runs all the train and metro in Hong Kong) is one of the big land developer in Hong Kong. The government do subsides a bit for the public transport (namely for the elderly and with social care), but mostly the transportation company earn from real estate. With the high price of housing in Hong Kong you can see how we subside the transportation we got in a more indirect ways.
The irony in all of what you said (which was extremely interesting) is that Central Government investment in Public Transport is pretty London-centric, either within the conurbation (Crossrail) or connecting to it (HS2). I can't rememeber the exact year, but I recall a set of DfT figures showing that Greater London was receiving £1,000/person investment compared to the North East's £5/person - an inequality that serves and ultimatly benefits no-one.
If a government was willing to invest in infrastructre beyond the basic essentials then there would be enough money for both easily
Cross rail and HS2 may be perceived outside London as "London centric" but for real they are about people outside London coming here. That should not be counted in with travel around London.
I'm surprised that the NE even got £5 per person.
Everyone agrees that civilisation ends at the M25, we just disagree as to which direction you're travelling.
probably because london is subsiding the north. additionaly, infastructure investment is a near sure fire bet in london. regardless, i do hope more investment is done to bring networks in northern major cities closer to london, like manchesters bee network
@@johnforrest695yes, it's of huge benefit to me here in rural North Yorkshire.
Hong Kong inherited the best of UK (England or say London) system. So good that the Elizabeth line is now built by Hong Kong Metro Company. However, the reason why HK Metro is so affordable is due to the Metro company is actually a property company. Mixed-used buildings are built along if not on top of the Metro station. Therefore, people pay an extreme premium on housing which is located closely to the Metro station, which is basically paying for the fare indirectly.
Whilst London fares might seem expensive, bus fares in cities and towns across the rest of the country are much higher.
Um, no. There's a flat £2 single fare on buses across the country. I travelled from Swindon to Salisbury today, 40 odd miles, same bus all the way, £2 fare. Mind you, it did take about 2 and a half hours.....
@@stevefry5783 sorry Steve, London’s buses are flat fare £1.75, and that national cap of £2 is currently time limited.
@@utterlee It might be theoretically time limited, but it's been extended about 4 times now. As it's a very sensible and not overly expensive policy, hopefully at some point the extension will become indefinite.
@@jamwil200 oh yeah hopefully it will be extended for sure. London buses will still be cheaper though.
And for that £1.75 you can connect to other buses, so long as you board within an hour of your journey starting, so even cheaper! I remember watching a video recently where someone went from SE outer-London (Sidcup maybe?) to Heathrow Airport for £1.70 as it was then. That also brings to mind the free-bus zone around Heathrow which I think is GREAT when MANY other cities around the world artificially hike airport fares.
As someone who’s traveled Europe. I realised how insane our fares are, a month pass to travel anywhere in Germany is currently €49….. I returned home and the Stansted express was nearly half that just to get back from the airport.
it was 9€ before the Car Lobby and backwartsminded Idiots killed it, but only for local service and "slow trains"
one of their "out of touch" arguments against it was: that people used it for "leasure activitys" and not only for traveling to work 😑
"a month pass to travel anywhere in Germany is currently €49"
That's a politically sponsored special offer. In the UK, our politicians prefer to cut taxes so that their billionaire chums can get even richer - and ordinary people keep voting them back in because they'll get to pay about £500 less tax a year, i.e. less than the cost of their CostaStarNero coffee each day.
This €49-ticket is not at all a sustainable financed matter, it will prove to be a straw fire. It’s price is already expected to rise significantly and if the public transit organisations tend to talk about money for financing improvements of services they get told not to be greedy as “they got sooooo much extra money already” …but that “extra money” was meant for filling the financial gaps that were scraped into their pockets by launching this low-low-price-ticket. It’s just silly. I myself work at a pt organisation and see this nonsense every day. I am curious when we have to cut services due to the lack of financing again - in a time when passenger numbers are growing. At least: With the 49€-ticket especially those lines that were a bit something like cash-cows until now, where you had sometimes the chance to finance additional services out of revenues are no longer, as (how it could be expected) the longer haul regional traffic makes widespread use of the 49€… I am not at all opposing lower fares in pt, we need them in Germany - not only for a monthly ticket, and not only in local and regional transit. But we also need more capacity on the rails, in the trains, increased quality of service and we need to continue timetable improvements. And we need attractive jobs in the rail industry. All this needs money.
I am not against lower fares, but I am fed up with a government that launches locust tickets but is not willing to pay the price for this!
I moved to London from Nottingham in 2002 and soon afterwards my new colleagues were complaining the single bus fare had increased to £1.10. Meanwhile in the city i had just left, a single bus fare was £1.60 (for a fraction of the distance in London).
I'm now in Manchester where there is no linked transport fare structure and public transport is therefore much less convenient and much more expensive than London.
They’re fixing that in Manchester now! The bus network is all being integrated into the trams and rail to make it simpler
there is a pricey all modes day ticket in manchester
@@reececollison5101 I got a ticket on the train yesterday and the conductor said I could also use it on the trams in zone 1. So it looks as if it's starting to integrate. Good news!
@@highpath4776 I forgot about that option! It's a shame the cost is a disincentive to using it.
Down to London not being deregulated.
Actually for Hong Kong, only the rail company, MTR, is indirectly subsidized with land development right next to stations. But in recent years, fare income is sufficient to cover cost. For bus companies, which are privately owned, are relied mainly on fare income and able to cover the cost. The problem for london public transport is inefficient under aged infrastructure and inflexible operation practice.
The fares for all other forms of Public Transport in Britain are very expensive anyway. When I go into London, the cost of a day pass is a very reasonable price.
I used to hire a car for the weekend, so that I could go to see someone, because the hire charge, deposit, and fuel wss cheaper than the cost of the bus, or train.
In victoria (+ surrounding border towns), a state in Australia, you can travel an area roughly equivalent the size of the UK for a daily cap of $10.60AUD (2024) (just over £5), and half the cost for concession. Our services are much more sparse given lower population densities, but it is still super useful, and cheaper rural fares encourage tourism and travel which boosts the economy
Victoria's suburban network has around the 30% mark for fares vs total cost, very similar to the other networks Jago mentioned. Regional is obviously a lot lower than that now, but given how centralised everything is in Melbourne access to get in there is pretty important.
Short journeys can be relatively *very* expensive, and long ones very cheap (eg Uxbridge to Upminster)
From a late 19th century local newspaper: 'With the recent increase in train fairs people will no longer travel for pleasure but only for business.'
I feel like a lot of people in the UK are just so used to high fares that they think TfL is cheap, but when compared to the rest of the world it’s still insanely expensive
I've travelled in Poland from Warsaw to Kielce which is 180 miles for the princely sum of £13.50 on the high speed train. The service was impeccable. On time, clean & reliable with a decent selection of food on board.
Oh yes. You take the Eurostar to Paris, it's not known for being a cheap city yet public transportation is sooo much cheaper than in London.
@@oldskoolmusicnostalgia
Have you actually seen ticket price from London to rest of UK like wales or northern UK?
They COST way more than Eurostar 💀
At the exact moment you said, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss," Roger Daltrey was singing on my TV screen in a Who concert on Sky Arts.
I would think another reason not touched upon is that the bones of the Tube were laid down when it was dominated by competing companies. So there's a lot of redundancy in the modern system. If you were to design the Underground today from scratch (and we'll ignore the actual building of the tunnels for now), it would in no way resemble what we see today. Over a century of inefficiency has left the system scrambling to catch up to demand ever since.
Would actually say there is very little redundancy in the current system given that all the lines operate pretty fully loaded, certainly anywhere near the central area. Plus a century of central control filling in the obvious gaps - so the Tube is actually a pretty well honed system.
The UK thinks that public transport is a burden on the taxpayer. Even the USA thinks that subsidising the metro system in their largest cities is normal.
If we didn't have to pay for wars, pointless managers and pen-pushers across the public sector and a few other things the government wastes our money on, we might be afford things that are useful to us.
Not popular to remind that Britain had a fully integrated and cross funded transport system.
Thatcher privatised transportation and it failed.
Old buses appeared on the road , no investment in rail stock etc.
Yep thats Britannia @@TheCrimsonAvenger
@@faenethlorhalien Like education. Etc.
The public transport system should not be in private hands, they’re only interested in the shareholders and their own pockets, consider the amount of tax taken from the motorist to pay for roads while little or no tax is taken for public transport and the private companies keep deferring their taxes anyway so don’t even pay for their last years taxes while yours is taken immediately out of your pay packet
I'm shocked to learn that TfL has a 50% farebox recovery rate. Perhaps the best explanation for TfL's fares are that Londoners use TfL's services at the prices charged. To relate a counter-example, to try to recover after COVID, Los Angeles Metro cut its "day pass" from $7 to $3.50, or the price of a round-trip. A similar move was made in San Diego. I think it's a great move--it invites people to take many more trips a day than just their one round-trip, or even make a side-trip on the way home.
That's pretty much what LT have been doing for the last 40 years with the Travelcard.
In my town in Germany (Regensburg) a one-way ticket bought on the bus itself costs €3.60. Whether you get off at the next busstop or at the end of the line, the price is the same.
Ouch!
When visited London in 2009 I had a RailPass which allowed me to travel on the BR lines, and I got around London perfectly well at no cost. When I came in 2014 the Overground had taken over most if these lines, the RailPass didn't work any more, and my travel budget was screwed.😥
I think if fares were to be lowered, its questionable if the system could cope with added demand. This is also why TOCs charge very high fares for the peak, simply because their trains would be extremely full otherwise.
I also feel as though journeys at the start/end of the off peak season and some Saturdays/Sundays are busier than peak. I feel as though fares from London can deal with removing morning peak and Fridays as the reverse seems to be far busier, since you do not expect a Londoner to work at Reading or Slough for example.
For example, I went on a Friday 10:00 am EMR service (2 car class 158) from Norwich to Liverpool and despite the off peak, it was busy with some standing from Thetford to Peterborough (where I and many people got off).
(edited to add 2 car 158)
@@annabelholland yes that happens, I've had that on EMR from St pancras many times. And thats poor yield management, they should improve on that.
I've commuted and trust me there are very few people that want to travel in rush hours for leisure the morning
"This is also why TOCs charge very high fares for the peak, simply because their trains would be extremely full otherwise."
Nope. Yield management by pricing went out of the window with privatisation. The TOCs charged very high fares in the peaks pre-Covid because that's how they made the franchise payments to government, and post-Covid they continue to charge very high fares in the peaks because that's what the DfT instructs them to do in order to keep HM Treasury happy(ish).
@@atraindriver Well, partially agree, partially disagree. In London, most TOCs have very high train loadings in the peak for Tuesday to Thursday and more and more commuters are coming back. My local line (Great Northern Moorgate services) is completely packed each morning. So the yield management aspect there is still valid. For Friday its different and you see some TOCs have amended their fares (Avanti). But you're right in saying that TOCs have very little commercial freedom right now.
Interesting that you steered clear of Fares Fair. Still controversial? But as many commenters have pointed out, once you have Oyster or contactless it's a lot cheaper than many areas. The £2 flat bus fare doesn't apply in Wales and if you have to pay (I don't, because anyone over 60 can get a bus pass here) a day ticket, just for the city, in Swansea is - £7.40. For any other than the shortest single trip that's yer lot.
I have a Welsh bus pass and so haven't experienced it, but some TrawsCymru bus routes in Wales are/were free at weekends.
I get a daily ticket in Swansea for £4.20 online or £4.70 on the bus itself. (First Cymru / First Bus). This is generally cheaper than any return journey, so I always get it.
@@grahvis We also have subsidised free buses over the weekends for December.
I clearly remember these 80 and 50p ticket machines. I've still got an unused 50p ticket from my first time in London.
I went to a concert on Leith Links, Edinburgh with a friend last summer.
Within the city, Edinburgh buses have a tap tap go thingy where the daytime fare is £2 cash or card a bus but capped at £4.80 by card only if you use the same card or device each time. By cash a day ticket for buses and trams is £5 and you get a paper ticket.
If you use card, your third bus is 80p and each next bus used that day is gratis. You can use your debit card which is handy if you are from another town. The tram ticket is also £2 and machines will let you tap your debit cards too which is also handy. Unfortunately they are not combined with buses and not capped as you will discover when you see your bank statement having blissfully used a minimum of couple of one and one of the other in a day.
I'm a Londoner living in Christchurch NZ which has a population of about 400,000. Our bus fares have been reduced down to $2 (about a pound) to travel anywhere with concessions being $1 and kids under 13 are free when using a card. Though most people still drive as the traffic isn't bad and loads of parking. I am in a rural area so would have to drive to the ferry, catch the ferry for $4 and then a bus for $2 which is really great value. The reason I drive is that I wouldn't be able to manage the shopping for my family of 6 on a bus and ferry but if I lived in the city I would probably get rid of the car.
I think in comparison to public transport outside of greater London, it's actually a bargain!
@ 6:06 , the blue ticket machines from the 1970s / early 1980s . My father told me a story that some passenger claimed to have an electric shock off one. (he worked in the Signal Electrical Dept, like I did later on)
So after that there was a relatively complicated "Earth Proofing circuit" that I believe would cut the power if an earthloop circuit got broken !
Yes, these days , they'd just use an RCD , but still this was earlier times !
When we went on holiday to London with my grandfather, aside from a trip with my cousin's future husband (who drove) we travelled exclusively via public transport and walking. However, we pretty much exclusively used the busses. One of the things that surprised me was the lack of mode-neutral integrated fares, i.e. the same trip has a different price depending on mode, and consequently it was cheaper to travel by bus. Here, for example, it's the same price whether you use a train or a bus (there are also ferries but they're not integrated in this same way).
Different forms of travel have their own pros and cons, usually time. Expecting the same fare for say a tube journey from a to b as a bus journey is kind of silly. In general the slower the transport the cheaper the fare
They tried to adjust things in the 1980s (Fares Fair), but that didn't work either...
The big thing I notice as a visitor to London (other than being on the wrong end of the exchange rate) is the steep discount for contactless or Oyster. Or is that a huge surcharge for cash? When I got off the plane last year it was £2.10 for off-peak contactless or Oyster from Heathrow to Earls Court, but £6.70 for cash. Ouch!
Cash is expensive for TfL to process, and puts staff at increased risk of being attacked.
Electronic payments are much cheaper for them to process, and safer.
Heathrow Airport has it's own fare-zone on the London Underground alongside Hatton Cross as part of the Airport-free fare zone which I think is subsidised by Heathrow Airport Holdings but this also means that the fares out of Heathrow are expensive.
I don't know how the system works for Heathrow but the Airport is probably classified as Zone 0 or Zone -1 in their computer system.
As for the more expensive cash paymen, I have no idea but TfL probably charges extra for cash payment at Heathrow assuming that you used a TfL ticket machine and not a Heathrow Express or National Rail ticket machine (I have never been to Heathrow before, so I suspect there is more than 1 type of ticket machine?)
@@wclifton968gameplaystutorials All TfL cash fares are pricey. I tried a few trips on their fare finder web page and the cash surcharge was 100% or more.
When in London I've been using an Oyster card for virtually the full 20 years of its existence, and I live 200 miles away.
@@wclifton968gameplaystutorials No, I believe Heathrow is just part of Zone 6 and has the same fares as any other station in that zone. The only difference is that they have removed 'off-peak' fares to Heathrow so you always pay the peak fare. Last time I was there is was something like £3.60 to anywhere in the centre but now it's £5-something. Still pretty good value I think. The free-fare zone local to the airport is a different thing altogether.
The provincial government in my part of Canada has decided to end its subsidy in 5 years and the premier said that "it's not the taxpayer's responsibility to subsidize the people who _choose_ to use the bus." So 5 years from now car ridership will explode and traffic will become even worse than it is now. The right leaning government thinks that for anything to be a success it must necessarily make a profit. So if public transit isn't profitable then it's clearly a failure and it should be allowed to fail and entrepreneurs will find a -better- profitable alternative etc. etc. etc. Except the alternative is the car because the public can't wait for the free market to "capitalist" its way into exploiting the public's misery.
I think transport in London is very reasonably priced and well integrated. I like how you can just go round tapping your card with nothing to worry about thanks to the daily caps. Try living in non metropolitan part of England.
It's all about the comparison. Public transport in London is less overpriced than the rest of the UK, but it's still expensive compared to major cities in other countries
@@grassytramtracksYeah but you're comparing apples and oranges when you look at other countries. Britain is an incredibly expensive place to be at the moment (I'm an ex-pat who lives abroad but comes back to visit regularly so I notice it more). In many of those other countries wages are also a lot lower. I totally agree that public transport infrastructure needs more subsidy, but all around the country, not just London. The long term aim should be to spread people, jobs, wealth further afield around the country and end the "London centric" problem that is blighting everyone, both those 'struggling' to live in London and those who don't. You could argue that prices in London need to be drastically INCREASED to force more people out to less crowded regions.
Consolation today is news that the Mayor has a fares freeze !
And claims people will “save” money because he hasn’t put the fares up 🤨
Only for 2 ticket types almost no one uses.
Bloke is a total charlatan.
He'll freeze the fare to £1.75 (bus/tram) but as soon as the Bank of England starts bailing out the government by printing more money (inflation), he'll just raise the fares even higher.
Does anyone still remember the 80p bus ticket on the oyster card vs. the £1.50 cash fare?
Conning the public in hope they vote for him
I became a twirley today. I now have an over 60’s Oyster card. Initial cost £20 a year then £10 every year every year after until I reach the age of getting a freedom pass (if it still exists by then). Got on a bus this morning and the card reader went red. Driver said I was too early as I can not use it before 9am!
When I had mine it was £10 full stop, and didn't expire until you qualified for a Freedom Pass, but you pretty much save the cost during the first week! I agree about "twirlies", though - I don't often go out that early, but when I do, I have to remember to pay on my phone!
As someone from Manchester... no, they're cheap. It's one of the only things in London that is actually cheaper than the rest of the country.
Yeah you’re right! Also the fact you pay once and can bus hop for the next 62 minutes, free of charge, is insane.
Coming from a place in the midlands where fares cost £2.55, (before the National £2 bus cap), to go one way on a 15 minute journey (outskirts of the city to city centre).
The bus also only comes 3 times an hour, every 20 minutes.
London buses are so cheap and frequent!
The only downside is the buses in the midlands are cleaner, have Wi-if, charge points, and the driver says hello when you board and goodbye when you disembark. 😂
That's a downside?!
@@Mark.Andrew.Pardoe My guess is they were being sarcastic or meant to put upside rather than downside lol.
They meant it's the only downside of the London buses that this ISN'T the case.
The short lived GLC initiative back in 1981 or `1982 called 'Fares Fair' did dramatically reduce fares in London. It was an instant success, boosting passenger usage, reducing car miles in London and proving very popular.
It was challenged by Bromley council and a controversial decisions by the Law Lords (including a certain Lord Denning) overuled the GLC and banned it! So much for the power of the ballot box, it's nothing compared to the rule of class!
However, in time honoured British tradition, a compromise was reached leading, for the first to integrated ticketing, ie; the Travelcard, and now the Oyster system.
The point is; that cheap public transport IS popular and has huge social and economic benefits. It just requires some politicians with the courage of their own conviction and a bit of vision further than the opinion polls to grasp the nettle and implement it!
One of the arguements used by the Tories in Bromley was that the Underground did not serve the Borough.
In fairness (fareness?) a lot in London dont pay. Over 60s, on Bus over 67s from outside london (after 930am on weekdays), under 16s , disabled and their carer, TfL public transport workers and their partners, police in uniform, others have reduced fairs, 16-21 in education, some jobseekers
On my last trip to England (August 2018) I didn’t have much of a schedule and could sometimes save a bit of money on rail fare between cities by booking a few days early and picking the cheapest trip. When I couldn’t, the prices struck me as fairly high. Cheapest trip was the morning I arrived, by bus from Manchester Airport to downtown Birmingham (I could have stayed on the bus and after a few more stops ended up at Heathrow for not much more in fare).
City bus fares in Lincoln struck me as reasonable (hardly any taxis, no Uber, bus was useful). I haven’t used public transit in London since 1995…
While transit in New York is subsidized, remember that people who live and work in New York pay federal, state, and city income taxes. You pay one way or the other.
I remember paying £4.50 for a journey from Leeds to London Victoria on the Megabus, then having to spend over £10 for a single journey on the tube! 😮
The fares are catching up with the rest of the country.
Its very expensive. I try to avoid zone 1 with overground, I walk more I bike much more and I always take the bus when I can't bike. For example I go to St Pancras when I work and I stop at Camden overground and I walk to St Pancras via the canal.. I spend 1.9£ high peak vs 3.4£ going straight to St Pancras
I’m here in the United States, never been to the UK, don’t live in a big city and don’t take the trains, yet I love this channel!
I travel regularly on the Paris public transport system, and whilst it is - on the whole - a great service, the cheapness of the fares must put a huge tax burden on public finances, and therefore taxpayers.
Hong Kong doesn't subsidize it's transit system - actually it's very profitable. What it does do is allow the transit system to buy land, build stations near it, and sell it on for a profit.
Plus they run half the world's public transportation which I'm guessing makes them a ton
Er, Herbert Morrison (Minister of Transport 1929-31) was the future Leader of the London County Council (1934-40) not the former Leader. But he was a leading Labour member of it so the point is still valid.
Surely it is because the one time (I can remember) when they tried to do it differently - "Fares Fair" a la Ken Livingstone in GLC days - it went up against the Thatcher government and (effectively) hit the buffers via various court decisions.
No. Hong Kong's is mainly from other revenue. If you look at JR East, other revenue also is a large proportion. Those include stores inside the station / next to the station, ads, vending machines, credit cards ... etc.
It costs me £4.80 to get a return to the City Centre in Exeter by bus, a 5-8 minute, 1.4 mile bus ride, if it turns up... it's a 20-22 minute walk. So while London is expensive compared to the rest of Europe, it's cheap as chips compared to the absolute joke elsewhere in the country.
Public investment in transport makes economic sense. London economic output is twice the size of Scotland and Wales output combined. London economy accounts for a quarter of the UKs economic output and contributes a net £38.7 Billion to the UK treasury. TFL contracts alone contribute around £6.4 Billion to the UK economy overall. 43,000 people were directly supported by the London Underground Investment Programme and 68% of these jobs were outside of London. For every £1 that was spent on the London Underground Investment Programme, 55p went to workers outside of London. London does not compete with Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Glasgow, Cardiff etc, but with Paris, Frankfurt, New York, Berlin, Brussels, Singapore, Hong Kong, Shanghai, Peking. Many foreign governments agree 6 year funding settlements with their urban transport authorities - giving the ability to plan and budget long-term. If London loses out to foreign cities due to an underfunded transport system then the whole of the UK will suffer.
But a London bus fare is £1.75 (not that long ago it was £1.50) and one hour allowed for a second bus journey on the same fare. Here in Leeds it is £2 and 30 minutes from the start of your first journey! Plus London has an: underground, trams, ferries and cable car. OK Leeds does have a ferry! 😂
Related to the comment early on in the video, reducing fares does seem to attract greater passenger numbers. Here in Ireland the govt. a couple of years ago arranged for all public transport fares to be reduced by 20% as a post-Covid boost. Add to this an extension of the areas Leap cards (sort of Oyster equivalent) cover and last year journeys by public transport rose an astonishing 24% between 2022 & 2023!
We also now have the 90-minute €2 fare in Dub that covers **everything**
@@TheChrisD And us crumblies don't pay a bean, even on Ianród Éireann! 😅
Thanks to that crook Charlie Haughey in his famous 'giveaway' budget,much of which was later abandoned after winning the election.
I can see the benefits of a cheap or free pass in Dublin or Cork -but not for the entire island of Ireland.
The economic arguement for expanding the railway rests on fare paying passengers not as a branch of social services.
Yes I well recall from my time in London that TFL was indeed ruinously expensive, just like a lot of other stuff in the home counties. Then again try riding the Glasgow Subway - that too is heading into second mortgage territory, and it's a fair bit smaller too, although happily the scotrail services around the city are a little bit more reasonably priced.
Jago
Thankyou for the informative vlogs on London transport. Also for Readly and Surfshark. I use these daily and discovered them through your TH-cam channel. All very useful.
Many thanks,
Jonathan
I recently did a bunch of journeys around London and I was quite surprised how little I got charged. For instance traveling in from Zone 8 to Zone 1 and then going all around London, and then back out to Zone 8, I got several journeys charged at zero due to the daily cap being reached. And the total for the day was several pounds less than the cost of a paper one day travelcard (£12-something vs £15-something). Also, another journey in from Zone 8 to Zone 1, across London, and then out to Zone 6 was only £4.70 where I was prepared for it to be more like £10.
if you used some overgrounds it would be 8/9quid
@@highpath4776 If you are referring to the £4.70 journey, then it did include the Overground. The TFL fare for a single off-peak journey inside Zone 8 is £4.70, using any combination of trains, be it National Rail, Overground, Underground or DLR.
@@ib9rt not if you are on your way to Cheshunt its not.
@@highpath4776 Fares for any journey can be looked up on the TFL website. Also, off-peak fares are lower than peak fares.
As someone who rode public transport in and around NYC for decades, you get what you pay for. Sure, I could ride the subway from the Rockaways to the northern Bronx for $2.90, but who would want to given the cleanliness and safety issues.
For us visitors, I think that tickets are really expensive. Comparing with my city, a bus ticket here is 0.80€ and the underground fares are the same in the centre, just a bit more when you got to other zones or the airport (that is 2€). And now they are half of that because the governments are helping a bit in this crisis.
For Hong Kong. Germany and France
It also helps that MTR, DB/ Arriva, and Keolis. All run major services for TFL which makes a profit which can be reinvested into the respective home countries that can subsidise to make the fares lower in the countries above.
Some of us oiks who live far from our capital city would have answered the question "Why are TfL fares so high?" with a rather blunt and arguably uneducated reply along the following lines: "Everything in London is unbelievably expensive - I can't work out how people can afford to live there." Mind you some of the London museums are free, to be fair. However, the more erudite Mr Hazzard as ever engages his great brain power to come up with a more erudite and detailed explanation. Now I know!
I’d have wagered money that you were going to drop Yerkes in like that. It did make me laugh despite feeling pretty rough today.
Cheers Jago you are the medicine to my malady
At least there is something like a daily cap in London. In NL anyone can travel as much as they'd like and they'd be charged for every journey without any limitation. Next to that, day tickets are only usable at the company you buy them from. When there are multiple public transport companies in one region, tickets are not interchangeable so you really have to have a good look at the company. It gets even more confusing in the municipality where I work for, as we have two separate bus concessions running within our borders, both operated by the same transport company, but because they both have a different commissioning body, the tariffs differ and tickets are not interchangeable.
This never used to be the case. When i first went on underground trains in London there were even ticket meachine for 1d and 2d (that's old pence!) It is only since the tories started trying to reduce the power of the people to get more money out of them.
As an American, I'm glad to see that our influence, via Yerkes, is so heavily and thoroughly felt. We're insidiiously taking over everything, and we've come to far to stop us now!
Unfortunately American entrepreneurship these day's goes beyond useful projects such as transit to the very destructive products manufactured by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon.
uk transport fares are really reasonable, I consider a day return from Bradford to Halifax at £7.10 for a 10 min journey to be beyond reasonable as you must consider performance related bonus payments to senior and middle managers for their hard work on tackling fare evasions and maintaining a very complex system. London is similar, these human dynamos deserve their bonus payments and I for one am happy to pay them for their hard work, dilligence and humanity in delivering world class services to a diverse and gratful public
TFL and Nrail fares are the 2nd thing (behind rent) that’s driven me out of london forever after seven years of struggle and trying. Here in Madrid travel is 8€ PER MONTH for under 26s. enough is enough!
There is the 16-25 railcard and 26-30 rail card that gives you a third of transport (off peak). The railcards can be loaded onto oysters and can be used for advance tickets (peak or off peak travel).
Also, there’s a reason many young Spanish folk are moving to cities like London. I hope you’re living well! 😇
Charles Tyson Yerkes and a Who reference, you spoil us Sir!
I understand that TfL announced that their fares would be frozen this year. To be honest, as someone in the shires, I consider that travelling around London is actually quite cheap!
(Although compare that to the continent and you might change your mind - Luxembourg’s pretty comprehensive public transport system is free (although they can afford it!)
It is - this video doesn’t provide a fair and true opinion from my perspective as a Londoner born and raised. The fact children under 18 travel on buses for free - is also a big win - it wasn’t always the case!
Great explanation. Everything in London is expensive. The simple answer to this is that wherever there are underground network, these areas are expensive. All the government has to do to make London cheaper, is to expand the underground networks to a much larger area thus making communities and businesses more dispersed. This would drastically brought down housing cost, the big killer of your income and standard of living😮 the list goes on. Can you shed some light on why they don’t do that?
Hey Jago! Nice video. I have questions and you, an expert on UK transit are the perfect person to ask! I've long been confused about the reason for a couple of issues on UK local/regional transport:
In many European cities/regions, if you buy a single ticket, it's valid on local (bus, tram, underground, local train etc.) and regional (things like southern etc.) transport for a set time (usually 90 minutes or 2 hours) within a given city or region, as long as you don't go back on yourself. Daily, weekly and monthly tickets are also valid on the same modes. You can't buy just a bus only ticket and retirees and students have transport passes instead of bus passes.
How come when I'm in the UK, most places make you buy seperate tickets for seperate modes? I assume it's not because of privatisation as I've noticed the daily and weekly tickets are often valid across operators, but not across modes and when Stagecoach were running the buses, trams and East Midlands Trains in Sheffield, the Sheffield megarider still wasn't valid on the trains. Are there plans to fix this kind of thing? It makes using public transport a lot less appealing.
Also, why are train routes in the UK called things like "the x service to y via z" instead of just having an easy to remember route number? No wonder the on-board wayfinding on buses doesn't tell you where to change for which train lines. You'd have missed the stop by the time you've finished reading all the stops it calls at. I'm glad that at least the buses have regular route numbers. Imagine if the 29 were instead called "the Arriva service to Wood Green via (lists all stops)".
Have a nice day!
In London I think the Oyster fair cap is supposed to be instead of the single timed travel. The system also gets around some awkward questions that would otherwise come up with the suburban rail companies - which are effectively private franchises and originally did not accept Oyster. On another note school pupils and "Retirees" in London don't have bus passes either. School students have special cards that give free bus travel and discounted tube/train (discount depends on age). This is not just for use for travel to school. Anybody over 60 in London gets free travel after the morning rush hour or all day at weekends (this is completely separate from the national bus pass scheme that does not kick in until I think your are 66). If you work, it means you might have to pay to travel to work but not back in the evening!
I agree with you on both counts. In London, at least all the rail services are integrated with one another and a fare only depends on which zone you are starting and ending your journey in. Notably, this also includes National Rail services, which is not the case in e.g. the Netherlands.
However, London Buses do not fall into the zone system and are therefore always paid separately, which can make a bus-to-tube-to-bus journey quite expensive. This can also be an advantage though if you have already hit a daily cap or if you have a travelcard - every further bus journey in that case will be free, regardless which zone it would theoretically fall into.
And the thing about just using the operator's name and destination to designate a train is an annoyance of mine as well. In Germany, every train has a unique number like RB 34713 which might be less memorable, but at least makes things unambiguous.
@@pmas1 wow, that must be a very obscure line! When I lived in Germany, my local train into town was the RB23 and later became the S23.
@@lazrseagull54 Well, line numbers and train numbers are different things :)
Here's a timetable for a line incidentally also called RB23, and you can see that every single train also has its unique 5-digit identifier, which I believe is also shown on the departure boards:
www.dbregio-berlin-brandenburg.de/resource/blob/9560518/c0845232fc72ef222284216c0b0e2861/RB-23-data.pdf
@@pmas1 whilst you can pay for national rail services with oyster/contactless and do so seamlessly with a TfL journey, the fares are not integrated. Fares vary by route and operator but tend to be 30-60% more than TfL fares in the same zones. An off peak zone 1-2 journey on southern rail, say London Bridge to East Dulwich costs £4.70 whereas a zone 1-2 journey on the tube costs £2.80 off peak. Mixed journeys between TfL and other operators is when it really stings and a zone 1-2 journey is easily north of a fiver
depends who you are comparing with, doesn't it. London's fares may be high compared with foreign cities, but they are a bargain (especially bus fares) compared with the rest of the UK.
TfL buses daily capping is still cheaper than the West Midlands (including Bromsgrove, Leamington Spa and Kenilworth with National Express West Midlands/National Express Coventry) where the daily cap is currently £4.50. But it looks like we're much cheaper than everywhere else!
At this point I feel Charles Tyson Yerkes deserves his own sinister leitmotif, to be played whenever his name is uttered.
Played on a theremin.
You failed to mention:
- TfL's 2023/4 planned budget was £8.05bn (€9.4 / $10.2) of which £3.5bn (€4bn / $4.35bn) was expected to come from sources other than passengers (Government grants, retained Business rates, Council tax, Road tolls, ...).
- London's Network Rail commuters are independently subsidised.
- London receives in excess of 40% of the UK's total public transport spend, while only hosting 13% of the population.
- London's Public transport network receives more in public subsidies than Switzerland's entire network, and almost as much as the entire Spanish rail network.
- TFL's staff and pensioners, are some of the best paid transport workers, and index linked transport pensioners, in the World, around 800 staff reported to be in the £100,000 - £450,000 pay band in the 2023/4 reporting year.
Hi Jago, I don't comment much, but I think your channel is brilliant. I'm from the US and I really enjoy all the history-oriented content you have to present! Definitely subscribed.
Thank you!
When I last went to London, last year, it was like £3 for a day ticket on the bus, which is like £1.50 cheaper than my city and I used to go to Swansea and I swear it was about a tenner for a day ticket (back in 2010, too)
Odd that those successive governments have not used tolls to make the motorways pay for themselves. Basically what we are seeing in the UK is snobbishness about public transport. Fares are even higher outside of London due to privatisation and a lack of local political talent and oversight.
It's a bit beyond snibbishness but an overall attitude of "managed decline". Where public services are allowed to deteriorate to the point of dysfunction so private interests do it instead until the state does literally nothing and you fend for yourself.
Corbyn is the only major party leader in post-Thatcher Britain that promised that the government would actually do something to help you rather than actively do less. Considering that entire project has been purged from the political landscape, I don't think anything will change soon.
Road vehicle taxes do pay for the roads and then some. When you combine road tax and fuel duty incomes together, they far exceed the amount spent on the roads per annum.
@@pheasantics6138 There is no such thing as road tax it’s vehicle tax and it’s not only spent on the roads
@@garysanderson4932that’s a technicality, VED acts as a de facto road tax and sure it pays for other things, my point was why should motorists be forced to pay yet another levy when the taxes that are only paid by motorists already exceed the money spent on the roads by the government.
Thanks again Jago ! 'Plainly Difficult' gave you another shout out recently ! 😃
London fares may be expensive compared to other world cities (Berlin, Hong Kong etc) but they are very cheap compared to the rest of the UK
In London Fare zone minimum should be changed to two zones as paying for either one or two zones for one station depending on direction is unfair. Also the fare should be lowered and standardised for every form of transport (for example zone 1 to 3 in a mainline railway should cost the same as the tube)
Fair zones will always be unfair to some
The rest of the uk outside of london watching this and seething. Tfl providing a vast infrastructure that runs to anywhere and everywhere within the greater london area,.with high frequeny and good costs. Vs the rest of us with far more expensive prices,.ageing networks with generally poor coverage and low frequency of services. Any londoner complaining about the Tfl costs needs their heads checking.
London is one of the world's richest cities, yet it doesn't subsidise underground fares like other cities. In addition, doing away with the trams, to make motoring easier was seen as reasonable 50 years ago, but was a disaster. The capital costs of undergrounds is high; the capital costs of roads is comparatively low. I regard Amsterday as the quintessence of common sense where, in effect, everyone travels by reasonably cheap trams or, out of town, buses. When I was last in the Hague they had trolley buses to the suburbs. Provided that the prime generators of power are low emission, doing away with diesel buses would be a significant step toward cleaner air and, one hopes, lowering climate change.
I find London Transport reasonable in comparison to the alternative. Daily caps for all zones in London @ £9.40. When you look at prices of vehicles, petrol, insurance, not to mention fees incurred for driving in certain parts of the city, you could do a lot worse I think. We do walk a lot, but we take the Tube mostly to get around when walking isn't sensible.
Wasn't expecting a The Who/Won't Get Fooled Again reference, I'm impressed
London will always suffer from congestion. In one of his few good moves, Ken Livingston looked at how much grid lock was actually costing and subsidised fares. The 'Fares-fair' policy worked brilliantly. People could drive round central London but normally would choose public transport. Suddenly buses could travel quickly and became better used. Then the obvious happened. The Tories took him to court and some rich judge issued an injunction. And that was it! So now we need a congestion charge to reduce London's traffic.
The congestion charge is not wooking car drivrrs could be charged £100 a trip into the city just so they can stay in their cars.
LT fares were stupidly high before Fares Fair but Ken slashed them to stupidly low levels. After the injunction they went to a sensible compromise level. Travelcards really helped for multiple journeys. Now the Tube is often overcrowded at current fare levels. So where's the best balance?
@@Bungle-UK During the short time it operated 'fares fair' showed what it was capable of. As regards illegality, when the Tories petition a Tory judge you get some unusual but predictable verdicts. Of course many years later the tube is now very overcrowded. It comes down to whether you think think market forces or public service is more important.
Also the MTR in Hong Kong get alot of revenue from renting out retail units it owns within the stations.
Public investment in transport makes economic sense. London competes with Berlin, Frankfurt, Paris, New York, Singapore, Hong Kong, Mumbai, Shanghai, Peking rather than Birmingham, Leeds, Newcastle, Glasgow, Cardiff etc. Many foreign governments agree 6 year funding settlements with their urban transport authorities, allowing for long term planning and budgeting. London is crucial to the UK, its economic output is twice the size of that of Scotland and Wales combined. London economy accounts for a quarter of the U.K.s total economic output and contributes a net £38.7 Billion to the UK Treasury. TFL contracts alone contributed around £6.4 Billion to the UK economy overall. 43,000 people were directly supported by the London Underground Investment Programme, and 68% of those jobs were outside of London. For every £1 spent of the London Underground Investment Programme 55p went to workers outside of London. The UK needs London to compete with other World cities.
Yup.
In Berlin an all-day ticket for all 3 zones (hah!) is €11.40, covering S & U Bahn, trams and buses.
That's lower than London's off-peak daily tariff-cap for all 9 London zones (£14.90), let alone the full rate (£21.20) and the travel-card equivalent is £27.20!
In fact it's about on par with the full price of the London zone 1-3 PAYG cap (£9.60, ~€11.18)
Yes but Berlin is still alot smaller I am not sure how much smaller haha. But 1-3 Zone in Berlin could still be similar to 5 zones on TfL. The last time I was in London was in the summer and thought the fares in London were quite cheap (for reference I am from Munich but rarely buy tickets since I have a D-Ticket) I also only used oyster and was only travelling in zone 1-3
@elsyvien the Deutschland ticket has changed the game. For 49 euros per month I can go anywhere in Munich, plus if I am in Berlin or Frankfurt I can also use their public transport. On top of that, free use of any regional trains.
If you think the fares are expensive in London, try the East midlands, not only are our fares extortionate, we have hardly any buses or trains and no investment in public transport.
Hong Kong's MTR makes a substantial PROFIT. It actually subsidizes the government.
Hong Kong's fare recovery rate (the ratio of operating expenses to fare revenues) is actually consistently above 100%, so fares totally pay for operating costs. The MTR Corporation's property portfolio is immense but it doesn't even need to be used to subsidize train operating expenses.
Another reason for TfL fares being higher than in other European cities is that you have a separate much higher price for travelling during peak hours.
At least London has public transport. For many rural areas there is functionally nothing available at any cost. That's not really fare 🫤🤷♂️
Thanks to Beeching.
@@ktipuss Thanks to Government underfunding more like.
Londoners moaning that TFL prices are too high would do well to go to Birmingham or Glasgow and use the public transport there. TFL prices for what you get offers get value. Anyone having to get on the cattle train from Snow Hill on a Thursday evening will testify to that.
London wins again!