This is the "Soča River in Slovenia" if anyone wants to know. Here in Slovenia its also know an the emerald river. This part of the river we call "The S" As this is the maneuver you must make with rafts when in low water to avoid the siphon. You go into the rapid river right as the kayaker did. just before the first set of rocks about 5meters out from the first set of rocks we would back paddle and place the raft be-hide in the Eddie crossing directly in-front of the siphon while working our way to river left... The kayaker was about 2 meters off the line he should have taken to avoid what happened to him. Even while on the correct line the current is still pushing you into the siphon so you must still drive the kayak river right while on the correct line... The rock itself is siphon / "C" shape undercut as in super low water its dry and you can see how it is..... The companies of the Soča Valley keep that "siphon" clean as much as possible.. We are checking it always specially after big water levels if something is inside it we take it out ASAP.
I was there two years ago, recognised it in a second. So beutiful the water and overall landscape. We went rafting and the river was in my opinion relatively calm. But the experienced guys told us about rocks like this and hydraulics of which I had no real clue...
Thank you for your comments. I think the major mistake that the paddler made here, and that is very common among novice paddlers, is underestimating the speed of the current. Given where the paddler was pointing their boat, it seemed that they planned on paddling river right. At the same time, given how relaxed their paddle strokes were, they seem to have thought that they have enough time to get to those eddies without putting [seemingly unnecessary] power into their strokes. The typical problem with this kind of thinking is that a novice paddler doesn't account for a possibility that they can miss a stroke (like this paddler did) or hit a rock, which will slow them down, or get out-of-balance by the current and lose time bracing, or [most commonly] simply misread the current. Whereas, by paddling more aggressively than they think they need to, they're essentially buying themselves insurance against such scenarios. In order to stop underestimating river currents, one needs to practice paddling down trajectories that cross the river as many times as possible, i.e. performing ferries, wave moves, catching eddies, etc. After many failed seemingly simple maneuvres, one will realize that they should paddle harder than their initial estimate often is.
Boy just watching this made my heart race. I'm a relatively experienced kayaker but have never been in a really messy situation so it's nice to know what to do and not to do.
After thirty plus years white water kayaking at all grades; I reckon there isn't a word out of place here. Impressed by the tip on green water and undercuts. Not often taught nowadays.
I got sucked through an underwater tunnel on the Mollala River in Oregon...scariest thing that ever happened to me in 15 years of white water kayaking...
I think maybe people are misunderstanding the "hug the rock" principle. The idea is not to capsize in to the rock (as opposed to away from the rock as in the video), rather it is to lean the boat over enough that it forms an angle against the water than pushes the boat up rather than down. Hugging the rock gives you something solid to lean on, thereby (hopefully) preventing you from tipping over in to the rock. Having the upstream edge of your boat higher lets the water flow underneath it, rather than having the full force of the water crush it. My understanding is that it is the crushing force of the water that is the real danger if you don't hug the rock. In a decent flow the boat will capsize, get pinned against the rock and then deform/bend around the rock with the weight of the water. If you're not out quick enough your legs are now trapped inside the deformed hull and you're truly buggered.
If you are going the same speed as the water -the water is in control. If you are going faster or slower then you are in control (as much as you can be). Faster is usually. Better when going through holes so that you have enough momentum to get through it. Slower helps you scout features, and ferry across to a desired eddie.
It's crazy how knowledgeable kayaker analyze ahead constantly and Dissect the terrain and react well in advance when moving at a high speed... I kayak recreationaly and learn from watching and doing it. I'd def be in trouble here no doubt cuz it takes split second reaction to get out
Great video, the last time I went on white water it struck me that this was the sport of 'not drowning', I never realised just how quick it could happen, that boy was one tree branch from death.
@@montanazach7033 lost my helmet today on the river, it must have been a doozy because I can’t even even remember where it all went wrong, search and rescue caught me when I was exiting the river almost gave me a ticket. Apparently they got a call, thank you crazy nehboor! My day could have ended in a body bag but thank god for crazy nehboor!
GODDdddd that shit was sooooo quick if you dont know what your doing you could so insanely easily just get randomly teleported to death! Phenomenal to watch and really showd the magnitude of how how dangerous kayaking is!
Yesterday i did 35km river the mattawa river never ran Rapids before was alot of fun but i learned of ppl like you that are kind and take time to same my and other lives for beginners was class 3 at the most few small falls but took us 12 hours long ride
Thank you for the information. This is invaluable. I’m still in class 2 and 3 water on a sit-on-top Dagger Roam. Love it but I’ve been working my way up slowly and learning to read the water. What is your #1 piece of advice for a beginner? I’ve mastered ferrying, catching eddys and such, leaning the hill upstream, and I still capsize sometimes in big holes. Wave trains are easy for me, front surfing, etc. but somehow my success rate on big class 3 drops is a mixed bag. Sometimes I get through and sometimes the water swings me sideways and then the tip. Thanks.
Always have a paddle in the water and always be heading somewhere. Know where you’re trying to go and get there. And if you’re going to hit a hole you want to pull through it and keep your core tight. Also ditch the sit on top and learn to roll solidly
I've not been kayaking any more for like 20 years and saw this video yesterday without any comments. My thoughts when seeing it first are reflected in your comments nearly 1:1. Too slow, no control, no firm grip to the paddle. One more thing is that there is no reaction to the obvious danger. He tries to avoid the rock just 10-15 secomds too late.
Nearly 50 years since I last paddled white water seriously. Boats were 13’6” long and an Olymp 76 was still hot property. Glass fibre was as tech as it got. Some things however never change, reading the water and hazard perception, basic river craft. Doesn’t matter how flash and high tech your gear is you can’t cheat the basics.
Thanks for the play by play and pointing out all the options & errors. Seems like he was lackadaisical after he went over the first rock at river level. If he would have just paddled harder, with the knowledge of white vs green water... ( ... already said..). The other option I saw was that before he hit that first low rock, he could have realized it might be hard to clear the other big rock further down on the right side, so he could have boofed straight over the water level rock and done either an eddy behind the first rock (or an 'eddy S' turn) and ferried over to the left a bit and gone by the big undercut rock on the left... Eddies are our friends and he could have chilled behind the first one, even though it was a bit frothy... take a moment to assess. I always tell people ya 'gotta paddle not float' and gotta work the eddies constantly for practice. It's a bunch of fun too... and it can save your life and others... thanks! Newt
@CyndisKrist generally swimming is involuntary exit from the boat and swimming. Waiting is the time between swims. If you boat on moving water you will swim,
I’ve been sucked under a down tree like this and was held under but it wasn’t that deep so I was able to plant my hand on the ground and keep my head out of the water until my buddy could get out and help me.
One of the mistakes I noticed is that homeboy seems to be leading the crew, hence there is no downstream safety making for a longer and more difficult rescue.
You want to be faster than the flow or at minimum the same speed, if you are slower than the flow the river owns you. If you are going to hit a rock or get pinned then always lean into the rock so the flow goes under your boat.
Mostly correct. Slower than the flow, you have control. It's when you're going the same speed you're a bath toy. Try pointing your boat upstream for example. Go slower than the river, and you can carve. Stop paddling and you just drift aimlessly. Same when pointed downstream, only now you're moving upstream backwards (relative to the water, not the bank). The dood in this vid is taking weak strokes using his arms instead of his core, so in his mind he's paddling but in reality he's not moving the boat so the river pushes him where it wants. You're right about rocks/pins though, 100%.
After watching a number of these videos it has become apparent that many of these people are out of their element and most of these accidents are easily avoided.
Two other things: The entire Safe Eddy Rule says, “Never go further downstream than the next eddy, a) that YOU can see, b) that YOU can catch, c) from which YOU can get out of the river. Don’t trust that there’s an eddy because another paddler told you there’s one. There are eddies that another paddler can squeak into but are not within your current ability. And, finally, being in a safe eddy means you can get you of you boat and climb to safety. Sitting around waiting for the water level to fall is not a good solution. I don’t think this paddler had any real chance of getting into that eddy. Second, POINT THE DAMN BOAT. You will *never* catch an eddy with your bow pointing straight downstream, no matter how fast you’re paddling. Good info on the undercut recognition!
So often, early mistakes lead to later ones. If he would have cleared the first rock more to the right, he would have had more boat speed. And he would not have been on the eddy line fighting to clear the second rock that flipped him.
Thanks for the support! I know when I started, hugging rocks was definitely not intuitive. It's a skill to be practiced. Different size and shape rocks need different techniques. Life saving skill to learn though. There are lots of videos that show boaters letting their COG get too close to the rocks and swimming into undercuts. Scary!
Hugging the rock isn't necessarly going to help in a sieve situation . It sucks like a plug hole . This looks like Soca river well known for its sieves avoid with out the pre requisite skills
Saying that a kayaker needs to be going faster or slower than the water around them to maintain control is absolutely false. If a boat is going slower than the water then the water is putting pressure on the boat which you will need to overcome to make any adjustment, which is why beginner paddlers often flip when peeling out of an eddy. Similar idea when a boat is going faster than the water, now the pressure on your boat comes from it pushing through the slower water. That pressure on the boat will again need to be overcome before any adjustment can be made, which is why beginner paddlers also flip often when catching an eddy. Another example would be why a new paddler will struggle to paddle their boat straight on a perfectly calm lake. Once they have any momentum the pressure on the boat will cause it to try and turn. But if I’m sitting still on a lake I can change my angle 180 with the slightest stroke of my blade. Likewise, if I’m going the same speed as the water as I go through a wave train rapid I can change my angle with ease as there is no pressure on my boat. Obviously there are plenty of times when speeding up or slowing down are crucial, but you actually have the most control over your boat when your boat and water are moving the same speed. This is a critical concept to grasp for whitewater kayaking and thankfully it’s straight forward and easy to grasp on day one in a boat if someone teaches it to you.
In WW safety courses students are taught keeping boat speed is fundamental. The biggest mistake our paddler made in this video is not maintaining speed relative to the water. Another way to think about this is bathtub toy vs boat with a motor. Your paddle is your motor, keep it going strong or enjoy the ride along. I appreciate you put a lot into this comment, stay safe out there.
@@montanazach7033 The biggest mistake the paddler made was not reading the water quickly enough. Generally speaking, water goes straight until it hits something due to gravity. So essentially you are on a conveyor belt. The paddler didn’t decide to get off the conveyor belt until it was too late (at least for his level of skill). So the big lesson here is actually momentum. He had downstream momentum provided by the current for too long when he should have been changing to cross river momentum to get to the right of the boulders. Back to my original point though, it is actually more DIFFICULT to maintain control of your boat when going faster or slower than the water you are in. It’s precisely the reason he flipped! His boat was slowed to zero while the water he was in was piling into him instantly putting pressure upon the boat and he was unable to control the boat. Same principle applies to peeling out of an eddy so therefore many flips occur there. Same principle applies to a ferry so therefore a loss of control often happens and the boat angle gets blown down stream. I actually teach whitewater kayaking for a living and I genuinely appreciate videos like this. Just wanted to bring to light that moving faster or slower than the water actually makes controlling your boat more difficult while also acknowledging that we oftentimes must choose to do so in order to make a move or hit a specific line. (looks like you’re from Montana, I used to instruct for the outdoor program at UM back in the day 😃)
My question in this analysis would be: Is it not better to try to roll in a situation like this? Because many experienced kayakers tell me roll. If there is a chance to roll, roll. If it hits you, drags you, roll. I know in this particular situation he would probably get stuck trying to roll above the rock but anyway. "Escape immediatelly" seems like something that could cause more problems than solve.
In this case the boat doesn't have enough flotation to stay at the surface. Rolling is not an option; the boat is being sucked under no matter what. Time to get out fast.
You can’t roll in a sieve and you are more likely to swim through one then you are to have both your boat and your body go through it. I mean if this hole was a little smaller, it would have had a similar amount of suction but he wouldn’t have fit through and would have just been stuck.
Rocks give you opportunities to move around the river as well as opportunities to die. It's all in how you use those opportunities. I'm a rafter, and my main rule is you should always have a ferry angle and be working it forward (Driving like Zach says, busting eddy lines), or Ferrying (i.e. slowing yourself down, buying time, changing lanes/catching eddies.)
Question: If he had leaned toward the rock on approach as u suggest, isn't there a possibility that he might have been pinned between the rock and the boat, i.e. possibly sucked under the rock with the kayak following him and essentially corking him in there?
There is a possibility. I think it's very small, given the shape of the rock and structure of the flow. But in any case, leaning into rocks in the event of a broaching collision has the highest probability of recovery. The general rule goes something like "The rock is your friend. Give him a hug."
A friend and I have just started river running on SUPs. Nobody around here is doing this so we are having to learn stuff on the fly and via lots and lots of youtube vids. We're being very cautious -- only Class I or II stuff at this point. Would this 'hug the rock' principle apply to SUPs in your estimation? We aren't strapped into our SUPs, just tethered and we have quick releases. My personal view is that leaning into a rock on a SUP is a good way to have the SUP pin you against the rock, or follow you into the undercut and possibly cork you in there. My gut reaction would be to lean away from the rock, quick release and swim to safety. With luck the SUP itself might even wedge in the undercut, stopping you from being carried underneath. Any thoughts on this?
I've been river SUPing for about 10 years. I don't tether on rivers because of the entrapment hazard. Even with a "quick release" setup you can find yourself in a position where the water will not allow you to release. This is a much bigger risk than pins. Pinning with inflatable SUPs can happen, but pins in SUPs are way less likely in general. Kayak pins happen because you are sitting 1/2 inside the kayak, and if you swim out they fill up with 100s of pounds of water and mostly submerge. Your SUP will bounce around at the surface unless you're on the Zambezi or something. Broaching on rocks while on a SUP almost always results in a dismount. Every situation is different and the consequences for falling from a standing position onto rocks can be high. Identify escape routes and have a plan for a safe dismount before it happens. Jumping upstream vs downstream vs cross current vs onto the rock vs away will depend entirely on the situation. In your example of the SUP blocking a sieve, what if it blocks the sieve enough to prevent you from going through but doesn't block the flow completely? The best course of action are the 3 P's: practice, prevention, & prudence. Sounds like you are doing a good job.
Leashes seem to be one of those subjects of debate. Coming from ocean SUP and surfing, my preference is for a leash, but my concession was the coiled waist leash with quick release. Right now, we're trying to find some useful info on river signals. All the refs we've found are kayak or canoeing signals where you have the luxury of being able to wave two-headed paddles around overhead and such. When you're on a board and you're keeping a brace on -- or have to keep your paddle at the ready to apply one in a hurry -- we're wondering how you signal hazards, eddy in/outs, to the paddlers behind you. Any suggestions or references?
I have always done signaling using the paddle as one would in a kayak. Signaling is restricted to moments in calm eddies or jumping off onto a rock or the bank. If the eddy is squirrely, I sit down and dangle a leg off each side of the board for stability while signaling with the paddle. It's not ideal, but I don't know of a better solution. Please share if you learn a better way of signaling.
Very good video. I saw the original and didn't really see anything wrong with it. And then after you broke it down, I was like Oh yeah... I knew all that. I've been paddling for about 4 years now so I've learned the hard way all these things. But yeah as soon as you slowed the crash down I was like, Oh... fuck yeah, So much done wrong there. I was in my chair and my body started bracing for impact, leaning toward the rock, or brace paddling, or anything. There was SO much he could have done.
At the VERY least, like if you just didn't see it, or underestimated it. I would have pushed my paddle against the rock to keep my distance from the rock. Tilt the kayak toward the rock, to keep my high side UP the river against the current, and like "vault off" the rock. But yeah you can tell very quickly this guy had a lot of learning to do.
I really like this. Thanks for the analysis of what he did wrong. What would you say he could have done instead? I'm thinking at the point where he looked backwards? What stroke would have quickly gotten him over to the right side eddies and away from that froth line? I really like the concept of seeing 1) the dangers and 2 seeing the escape points. Thanks for doing this analysis. Have you done any others?
At 1:00 he's in a good spot ferry to the eddy on the right. A starboard c-stroke followed by a hard forward stroke to port would send him to the eddy. Holding a draw as he crossed the current would make it smooth and controlled. I did another video about how I improved my kayaking th-cam.com/video/EZ5QdUzhJqM/w-d-xo.html I'm glad you liked my video, thanks for the support.
Biggest mistake: rookie paddler who's unstable,unsure and flailing while taking on water he doesn't yet have the skills to safely read and handle.One or two decisive and well placed strokes would have easily gotten him past what is an easily missed obstacle in CLII water.
Paddle man. Be aggressive. What I'm yelling at phone watching this. Lol. Something I was really yelled at by my buddies to. Keep that paddle in the water and be aggressive.
Correct. I would add that aggressive energy should be combined with mastery of the basic strokes. One of the biggest mistakes I made when learning was not starting with understanding the basic strokes. I watch clips of me from my early years and I look like an angry drunk lumberjack hackin' away. Onside & offside forward, draw, and C. I would argue it's at least as important as rolling.
Montana Zach that spot is sketchy to though. Just glad dude made it out. I'm new to in this hobby. Love watching videos like this. I'll honestly say hugging the objects was my least issue. I don't have a combat roll down and also not great at bracing but I do it with force 😂. I was the guy that always raised paddle when got tippy in water. No no and never live it down. Paddle paddle, get boat straight, follow the V's man. Go go. All I hear as been yelled that so many times. I hear it when not even being told really hahahaha. Thanks for the video though. Nice seeing it
I have no criticism of the paddler here or anyone who has found themselves in a similar situation. I made this video with the hope that maybe someone, somewhere would learn from the mistakes shown here and avoid them without having to learn the hard way. The other thing about mistakes and learning is, there are some mistakes you can't learn from. Because you die. I am thankful this paddler came out OK.
How is going slower than the river maintaining control? Seems to me if you are going slower than the river you are liable to get stuck in a feature like he did.
@@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017 Moving slower than the water flows is called, "ferrying". You have 3 general states: eddied out, ferrying, and driving. If you're not in one of those states, you're out of control. There are moments when you're airborne or sliding on rock which are not these 3 and also in control, but I think you get the idea.
@@MaximumEfficiency It's going thru a cave/undercut/etc. where you need to be out to minimize your chance of getting pinned. This guy got lucky the boat didn't pin before he got out, just plain luck. Many drownings have happened that had a good chance of not happening if they were outta the boat. An example of a danger like this is hydroelectric rock on Section IV of the Chattooga. 100% if you get sucked in there in your boat you're getting pinned and will die unless you're with a world class rescue team. Many such dangers on every river.
Current slows around most rocks, but actually accelerates near the mouth of a large sieve or cave like this. IMO he intended to make the eddy on the right, but didn't anticipate this.
IDK - looked more like inexperience than lazy to me. Didn't know what to do for a critical few seconds so didn't do anything. Like Zach said - seemed oblivious to the danger until it was too late. When in doubt - paddle!
To a degree you are correct, EDUCATION IS KEY. Without knowing what you're doing or getting yourself into this can be a very dangerous sport! But done right and it's a lifetime of entertainment, beauty and experience like no other!
Holy crap he got lucky!!! As soon as I saw your title I grabbed my wife and said how much you want to bet this is an undercut rock?!?! I used to teach WW boating and loved it. BUT ALWAYS made a point to stop and show my students exactly what to look for and how to avoid it as well as why. Often times when possible I would demonstrate to them just how dangerous undercuts and sieves can be by using a piece of wood floating by!
1 this paddler is not skilled enough for this grade of water 2 basic scouting and prep would have warned them of the danger 3 the people paddling with this paddler are either delusional or equally inexperienced and therefore dangerous 4 paddling is not the hyper complicated frame by frame game of roulette that the commentator suggests
This is an absolutely outstanding video that all beginner kayakers, and even experienced kayakers, should watch. Thank you for making it.
As a beginner who has not kayaked yet it has motivated me to quit kayaking
This is the "Soča River in Slovenia" if anyone wants to know. Here in Slovenia its also know an the emerald river. This part of the river we call "The S"
As this is the maneuver you must make with rafts when in low water to avoid the siphon. You go into the rapid river right as the kayaker did. just before the first set of rocks about 5meters out from the first set of rocks we would back paddle and place the raft be-hide in the Eddie crossing directly in-front of the siphon while working our way to river left... The kayaker was about 2 meters off the line he should have taken to avoid what happened to him. Even while on the correct line the current is still pushing you into the siphon so you must still drive the kayak river right while on the correct line... The rock itself is siphon / "C" shape undercut as in super low water its dry and you can see how it is..... The companies of the Soča Valley keep that "siphon" clean as much as possible.. We are checking it always specially after big water levels if something is inside it we take it out ASAP.
It's great that the hole is big enough for a boat and person to pass through and really great that you guys are vigilant about keeping it cleaned out.
I've been there and swam in it, its literally the most beautiful river ever, but very cold
I was there two years ago, recognised it in a second. So beutiful the water and overall landscape. We went rafting and the river was in my opinion relatively calm. But the experienced guys told us about rocks like this and hydraulics of which I had no real clue...
Why don't they just put a large rock under there to seal off the siphon and eliminate it to begin with since this happens so much?
@@user-tb2jy9lu3d Yeah en list the Hulk.
Thank you for your comments.
I think the major mistake that the paddler made here, and that is very common among novice paddlers, is underestimating the speed of the current. Given where the paddler was pointing their boat, it seemed that they planned on paddling river right. At the same time, given how relaxed their paddle strokes were, they seem to have thought that they have enough time to get to those eddies without putting [seemingly unnecessary] power into their strokes. The typical problem with this kind of thinking is that a novice paddler doesn't account for a possibility that they can miss a stroke (like this paddler did) or hit a rock, which will slow them down, or get out-of-balance by the current and lose time bracing, or [most commonly] simply misread the current. Whereas, by paddling more aggressively than they think they need to, they're essentially buying themselves insurance against such scenarios.
In order to stop underestimating river currents, one needs to practice paddling down trajectories that cross the river as many times as possible, i.e. performing ferries, wave moves, catching eddies, etc. After many failed seemingly simple maneuvres, one will realize that they should paddle harder than their initial estimate often is.
Boy just watching this made my heart race. I'm a relatively experienced kayaker but have never been in a really messy situation so it's nice to know what to do and not to do.
An absolute must watch! I’m glad I can across this as I am recently getting into Kayaking classII and III rapids. Thank you.
Hey man! Welcome to water-world.
Are you still with us?
@@antdx316 absolutely! Progressed a lot since last year.
@@NickCoulter Tell us all the things you've learned that you almost died from.
@@montanazach7033 Best movie ever made!
After thirty plus years white water kayaking at all grades; I reckon there isn't a word out of place here. Impressed by the tip on green water and undercuts. Not often taught nowadays.
I got sucked through an underwater tunnel on the Mollala River in Oregon...scariest thing that ever happened to me in 15 years of white water kayaking...
Cannot imagine. Had you been stuck down there at all or were you lucky to get out immediately?
I think maybe people are misunderstanding the "hug the rock" principle. The idea is not to capsize in to the rock (as opposed to away from the rock as in the video), rather it is to lean the boat over enough that it forms an angle against the water than pushes the boat up rather than down. Hugging the rock gives you something solid to lean on, thereby (hopefully) preventing you from tipping over in to the rock. Having the upstream edge of your boat higher lets the water flow underneath it, rather than having the full force of the water crush it. My understanding is that it is the crushing force of the water that is the real danger if you don't hug the rock. In a decent flow the boat will capsize, get pinned against the rock and then deform/bend around the rock with the weight of the water. If you're not out quick enough your legs are now trapped inside the deformed hull and you're truly buggered.
Correct. Entrapment pins are an additional possibility in this situation, thanks for pointing it out.
"rocks are your friend, trees are your enemy. hug your friend" :)
There is no way a stable boat could bend so much that you cannot get out anymore.
First time hearing that... Go faster or slower than the river
The boat has to be moving relative to the water around you or you're just floating along like a bath toy.
If you are going the same speed as the water -the water is in control. If you are going faster or slower then you are in control (as much as you can be). Faster is usually. Better when going through holes so that you have enough momentum to get through it. Slower helps you scout features, and ferry across to a desired eddie.
Paddler or passanger
It's crazy how knowledgeable kayaker analyze ahead constantly and Dissect the terrain and react well in advance when moving at a high speed... I kayak recreationaly and learn from watching and doing it. I'd def be in trouble here no doubt cuz it takes split second reaction to get out
Thanks for the thorough after action review, some great takeaways to be sure. Glad he lived to paddle another day.
The best paddlers do every stroke with authority. You cannot be passive in big water!
Correct.
Great video, the last time I went on white water it struck me that this was the sport of 'not drowning', I never realised just how quick it could happen, that boy was one tree branch from death.
Keep it real or die. A pure and beautiful lesson.
@@montanazach7033 lost my helmet today on the river, it must have been a doozy because I can’t even even remember where it all went wrong, search and rescue caught me when I was exiting the river almost gave me a ticket. Apparently they got a call, thank you crazy nehboor! My day could have ended in a body bag but thank god for crazy nehboor!
Scary, but educational and extremely well presented. I'm going to show this video to any family/friends that are new to white water kayaking.
GODDdddd that shit was sooooo quick if you dont know what your doing you could so insanely easily just get randomly teleported to death! Phenomenal to watch and really showd the magnitude of how how dangerous kayaking is!
100%. I got a few friends who teleported over the years. They were all just like this situation: bad risk management. Keep it real or pay the price!
@Montana Zach great commentary and illustration.
You mentioned another kayaking video. I do not see it on your channel. Do you have a link?
me and my wife are beginner packrafters, this is invaluable. we are planning to take many courses in swift water paddling and rescue !
Very informational! Thanks for posting this and I hope you are able to do some more!
Thanks for the support. I have considered doing more vids. Suggestions?
@@montanazach7033
th-cam.com/video/OrEp0XYm3LY/w-d-xo.html
Woow...i did only know the original Video without the perfect discribtion. You tranformed it to an awesome WW-Lesson. Nice job. Cheers Tom
Yesterday i did 35km river the mattawa river never ran Rapids before was alot of fun but i learned of ppl like you that are kind and take time to same my and other lives for beginners was class 3 at the most few small falls but took us 12 hours long ride
As somebody who has been like 20 seconds from the drowning response I think this video is wonderful
That’s spooky. Good vid man 🤙
Thank you for the information. This is invaluable. I’m still in class 2 and 3 water on a sit-on-top Dagger Roam. Love it but I’ve been working my way up slowly and learning to read the water. What is your #1 piece of advice for a beginner? I’ve mastered ferrying, catching eddys and such, leaning the hill upstream, and I still capsize sometimes in big holes. Wave trains are easy for me, front surfing, etc. but somehow my success rate on big class 3 drops is a mixed bag. Sometimes I get through and sometimes the water swings me sideways and then the tip. Thanks.
Always have a paddle in the water and always be heading somewhere. Know where you’re trying to go and get there. And if you’re going to hit a hole you want to pull through it and keep your core tight. Also ditch the sit on top and learn to roll solidly
Buy a copy of William Nealy's "kayak" book and read it from cover to cover. It might save your life.
Good stuff...ive seen that kind of video before somewhere...way to break it down.
Thank you! Now I can die in a kayak!
Wow that's nuts so deep so fast got lucky.
Yep.
I've not been kayaking any more for like 20 years and saw this video yesterday without any comments. My thoughts when seeing it first are reflected in your comments nearly 1:1. Too slow, no control, no firm grip to the paddle. One more thing is that there is no reaction to the obvious danger. He tries to avoid the rock just 10-15 secomds too late.
You're right, it appears he doesn't try to start making moves until it's too late. I maybe could improve this by adding a bit about reading ahead.
Nearly 50 years since I last paddled white water seriously. Boats were 13’6” long and an Olymp 76 was still hot property. Glass fibre was as tech as it got.
Some things however never change, reading the water and hazard perception, basic river craft. Doesn’t matter how flash and high tech your gear is you can’t cheat the basics.
Regarding flash gear vs skills: 100% Correct.
Thanks for the play by play and pointing out all the options & errors. Seems like he was lackadaisical after he went over the first rock at river level. If he would have just paddled harder, with the knowledge of white vs green water... ( ... already said..). The other option I saw was that before he hit that first low rock, he could have realized it might be hard to clear the other big rock further down on the right side, so he could have boofed straight over the water level rock and done either an eddy behind the first rock (or an 'eddy S' turn) and ferried over to the left a bit and gone by the big undercut rock on the left... Eddies are our friends and he could have chilled behind the first one, even though it was a bit frothy... take a moment to assess. I always tell people ya 'gotta paddle not float' and gotta work the eddies constantly for practice. It's a bunch of fun too... and it can save your life and others... thanks! Newt
Well put together, ✋. Many people need to see this video.
Thank you for posting this.
scary as hell. always wanted to get into kayaking but yikes
There is a kayak and a river out there for everyone...no need to paddle dangerous waters to have fun!
If you live near eastern Canada, the Ottawa river is a very big yet super safe river
Nothing wrong with Class 1/2 water, but be aware you can always swim. If you're not up for that possiblity you don't belong in that water.
@@agarcia6585 I've heard the terms "swimming" and "waiting" with regard to canoeing/kayaking. What exactly does each term mean?
@CyndisKrist generally swimming is involuntary exit from the boat and swimming. Waiting is the time between swims.
If you boat on moving water you will swim,
I’ve been sucked under a down tree like this and was held under but it wasn’t that deep so I was able to plant my hand on the ground and keep my head out of the water until my buddy could get out and help me.
One of the mistakes I noticed is that homeboy seems to be leading the crew, hence there is no downstream safety making for a longer and more difficult rescue.
You want to be faster than the flow or at minimum the same speed, if you are slower than the flow the river owns you. If you are going to hit a rock or get pinned then always lean into the rock so the flow goes under your boat.
Mostly correct. Slower than the flow, you have control. It's when you're going the same speed you're a bath toy. Try pointing your boat upstream for example. Go slower than the river, and you can carve. Stop paddling and you just drift aimlessly. Same when pointed downstream, only now you're moving upstream backwards (relative to the water, not the bank). The dood in this vid is taking weak strokes using his arms instead of his core, so in his mind he's paddling but in reality he's not moving the boat so the river pushes him where it wants. You're right about rocks/pins though, 100%.
After watching a number of these videos it has become apparent that many of these people are out of their element and most of these accidents are easily avoided.
Two other things:
The entire Safe Eddy Rule says, “Never go further downstream than the next eddy, a) that YOU can see, b) that YOU can catch, c) from which YOU can get out of the river. Don’t trust that there’s an eddy because another paddler told you there’s one. There are eddies that another paddler can squeak into but are not within your current ability. And, finally, being in a safe eddy means you can get you of you boat and climb to safety. Sitting around waiting for the water level to fall is not a good solution. I don’t think this paddler had any real chance of getting into that eddy.
Second, POINT THE DAMN BOAT. You will *never* catch an eddy with your bow pointing straight downstream, no matter how fast you’re paddling.
Good info on the undercut recognition!
Good advice.
great video man, I definitely learned some stuff.
So often, early mistakes lead to later ones. If he would have cleared the first rock more to the right, he would have had more boat speed. And he would not have been on the eddy line fighting to clear the second rock that flipped him.
Correct.
Great informative video. Hugging the rock is counter intuitive, but is what you have to do. I am looking forword to check out your other videos.
Thanks for the support! I know when I started, hugging rocks was definitely not intuitive. It's a skill to be practiced. Different size and shape rocks need different techniques. Life saving skill to learn though. There are lots of videos that show boaters letting their COG get too close to the rocks and swimming into undercuts. Scary!
Hugging the rock isn't necessarly going to help in a sieve situation . It sucks like a plug hole . This looks like Soca river well known for its sieves avoid with out the pre requisite skills
best video on river reading
Saying that a kayaker needs to be going faster or slower than the water around them to maintain control is absolutely false. If a boat is going slower than the water then the water is putting pressure on the boat which you will need to overcome to make any adjustment, which is why beginner paddlers often flip when peeling out of an eddy. Similar idea when a boat is going faster than the water, now the pressure on your boat comes from it pushing through the slower water. That pressure on the boat will again need to be overcome before any adjustment can be made, which is why beginner paddlers also flip often when catching an eddy. Another example would be why a new paddler will struggle to paddle their boat straight on a perfectly calm lake. Once they have any momentum the pressure on the boat will cause it to try and turn. But if I’m sitting still on a lake I can change my angle 180 with the slightest stroke of my blade. Likewise, if I’m going the same speed as the water as I go through a wave train rapid I can change my angle with ease as there is no pressure on my boat. Obviously there are plenty of times when speeding up or slowing down are crucial, but you actually have the most control over your boat when your boat and water are moving the same speed. This is a critical concept to grasp for whitewater kayaking and thankfully it’s straight forward and easy to grasp on day one in a boat if someone teaches it to you.
In WW safety courses students are taught keeping boat speed is fundamental. The biggest mistake our paddler made in this video is not maintaining speed relative to the water. Another way to think about this is bathtub toy vs boat with a motor. Your paddle is your motor, keep it going strong or enjoy the ride along. I appreciate you put a lot into this comment, stay safe out there.
@@montanazach7033 The biggest mistake the paddler made was not reading the water quickly enough. Generally speaking, water goes straight until it hits something due to gravity. So essentially you are on a conveyor belt. The paddler didn’t decide to get off the conveyor belt until it was too late (at least for his level of skill).
So the big lesson here is actually momentum. He had downstream momentum provided by the current for too long when he should have been changing to cross river momentum to get to the right of the boulders.
Back to my original point though, it is actually more DIFFICULT to maintain control of your boat when going faster or slower than the water you are in. It’s precisely the reason he flipped! His boat was slowed to zero while the water he was in was piling into him instantly putting pressure upon the boat and he was unable to control the boat. Same principle applies to peeling out of an eddy so therefore many flips occur there. Same principle applies to a ferry so therefore a loss of control often happens and the boat angle gets blown down stream.
I actually teach whitewater kayaking for a living and I genuinely appreciate videos like this. Just wanted to bring to light that moving faster or slower than the water actually makes controlling your boat more difficult while also acknowledging that we oftentimes must choose to do so in order to make a move or hit a specific line. (looks like you’re from Montana, I used to instruct for the outdoor program at UM back in the day 😃)
My question in this analysis would be: Is it not better to try to roll in a situation like this? Because many experienced kayakers tell me roll. If there is a chance to roll, roll. If it hits you, drags you, roll. I know in this particular situation he would probably get stuck trying to roll above the rock but anyway. "Escape immediatelly" seems like something that could cause more problems than solve.
In this case the boat doesn't have enough flotation to stay at the surface. Rolling is not an option; the boat is being sucked under no matter what. Time to get out fast.
You can’t roll in a sieve and you are more likely to swim through one then you are to have both your boat and your body go through it. I mean if this hole was a little smaller, it would have had a similar amount of suction but he wouldn’t have fit through and would have just been stuck.
Rocks bad! Water good! Eddies are best friends!
Hey that's not fair to the rocks! No rocks => no rapids. Not to mention awesome boofs, flares, and spins. Paddle hard :)
Rocks good, you hit a rock upstream you hug it, its your friend. Lean away you tip over for sure.
@@YouTuneIt Correct.
Rocks give you opportunities to move around the river as well as opportunities to die. It's all in how you use those opportunities. I'm a rafter, and my main rule is you should always have a ferry angle and be working it forward (Driving like Zach says, busting eddy lines), or Ferrying (i.e. slowing yourself down, buying time, changing lanes/catching eddies.)
Question: If he had leaned toward the rock on approach as u suggest, isn't there a possibility that he might have been pinned between the rock and the boat, i.e. possibly sucked under the rock with the kayak following him and essentially corking him in there?
There is a possibility. I think it's very small, given the shape of the rock and structure of the flow. But in any case, leaning into rocks in the event of a broaching collision has the highest probability of recovery. The general rule goes something like "The rock is your friend. Give him a hug."
A friend and I have just started river running on SUPs. Nobody around here is doing this so we are having to learn stuff on the fly and via lots and lots of youtube vids. We're being very cautious -- only Class I or II stuff at this point.
Would this 'hug the rock' principle apply to SUPs in your estimation? We aren't strapped into our SUPs, just tethered and we have quick releases. My personal view is that leaning into a rock on a SUP is a good way to have the SUP pin you against the rock, or follow you into the undercut and possibly cork you in there.
My gut reaction would be to lean away from the rock, quick release and swim to safety. With luck the SUP itself might even wedge in the undercut, stopping you from being carried underneath.
Any thoughts on this?
I've been river SUPing for about 10 years. I don't tether on rivers because of the entrapment hazard. Even with a "quick release" setup you can find yourself in a position where the water will not allow you to release. This is a much bigger risk than pins.
Pinning with inflatable SUPs can happen, but pins in SUPs are way less likely in general. Kayak pins happen because you are sitting 1/2 inside the kayak, and if you swim out they fill up with 100s of pounds of water and mostly submerge. Your SUP will bounce around at the surface unless you're on the Zambezi or something.
Broaching on rocks while on a SUP almost always results in a dismount. Every situation is different and the consequences for falling from a standing position onto rocks can be high. Identify escape routes and have a plan for a safe dismount before it happens. Jumping upstream vs downstream vs cross current vs onto the rock vs away will depend entirely on the situation. In your example of the SUP blocking a sieve, what if it blocks the sieve enough to prevent you from going through but doesn't block the flow completely?
The best course of action are the 3 P's: practice, prevention, & prudence. Sounds like you are doing a good job.
Leashes seem to be one of those subjects of debate. Coming from ocean SUP and surfing, my preference is for a leash, but my concession was the coiled waist leash with quick release.
Right now, we're trying to find some useful info on river signals. All the refs we've found are kayak or canoeing signals where you have the luxury of being able to wave two-headed paddles around overhead and such. When you're on a board and you're keeping a brace on -- or have to keep your paddle at the ready to apply one in a hurry -- we're wondering how you signal hazards, eddy in/outs, to the paddlers behind you. Any suggestions or references?
I have always done signaling using the paddle as one would in a kayak. Signaling is restricted to moments in calm eddies or jumping off onto a rock or the bank. If the eddy is squirrely, I sit down and dangle a leg off each side of the board for stability while signaling with the paddle. It's not ideal, but I don't know of a better solution. Please share if you learn a better way of signaling.
thanks thanks thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! for this awesome video commentary
Very good video. I saw the original and didn't really see anything wrong with it. And then after you broke it down, I was like Oh yeah... I knew all that. I've been paddling for about 4 years now so I've learned the hard way all these things. But yeah as soon as you slowed the crash down I was like, Oh... fuck yeah, So much done wrong there. I was in my chair and my body started bracing for impact, leaning toward the rock, or brace paddling, or anything. There was SO much he could have done.
Thanks for the support! You mentioned bracing. I bet you've already noticed many more things I've missed/left out. Sharp.
At the VERY least, like if you just didn't see it, or underestimated it. I would have pushed my paddle against the rock to keep my distance from the rock. Tilt the kayak toward the rock, to keep my high side UP the river against the current, and like "vault off" the rock. But yeah you can tell very quickly this guy had a lot of learning to do.
Thank you so much for posting this. I'm new to ww kayaking and so I'm watching everything i can. This was a very good watch. Thanks again.
I'm happy it was useful. Thanks for the support!
His sweep strokes had no effect. He used the arm and shoulder instead of the core muscles
Correct.
I really like this. Thanks for the analysis of what he did wrong. What would you say he could have done instead? I'm thinking at the point where he looked backwards? What stroke would have quickly gotten him over to the right side eddies and away from that froth line? I really like the concept of seeing 1) the dangers and 2 seeing the escape points. Thanks for doing this analysis. Have you done any others?
At 1:00 he's in a good spot ferry to the eddy on the right. A starboard c-stroke followed by a hard forward stroke to port would send him to the eddy. Holding a draw as he crossed the current would make it smooth and controlled.
I did another video about how I improved my kayaking th-cam.com/video/EZ5QdUzhJqM/w-d-xo.html
I'm glad you liked my video, thanks for the support.
@@montanazach7033 Available elsewhere?
great video thank you
Biggest mistake: rookie paddler who's unstable,unsure and flailing while taking on water he doesn't yet have the skills to safely read and handle.One or two decisive and well placed strokes would have easily gotten him past what is an easily missed obstacle in CLII water.
Isn't it amazing how small the difference is between having a good time & getting sucked into a death cave? The River is my favorite Teacher.
That is terrifying!
I've noticed too here that the paddler doesn't even have a well developed forward stroke!
Paddle man. Be aggressive. What I'm yelling at phone watching this. Lol. Something I was really yelled at by my buddies to. Keep that paddle in the water and be aggressive.
Correct. I would add that aggressive energy should be combined with mastery of the basic strokes. One of the biggest mistakes I made when learning was not starting with understanding the basic strokes. I watch clips of me from my early years and I look like an angry drunk lumberjack hackin' away. Onside & offside forward, draw, and C. I would argue it's at least as important as rolling.
Montana Zach that spot is sketchy to though. Just glad dude made it out. I'm new to in this hobby. Love watching videos like this. I'll honestly say hugging the objects was my least issue. I don't have a combat roll down and also not great at bracing but I do it with force 😂. I was the guy that always raised paddle when got tippy in water. No no and never live it down. Paddle paddle, get boat straight, follow the V's man. Go go. All I hear as been yelled that so many times. I hear it when not even being told really hahahaha. Thanks for the video though. Nice seeing it
Thanks for the support! Don't worry we've all been "that guy" at some point. It's part of the doin' the thing.
What paddler doesn't have to learn by mistake?
I have no criticism of the paddler here or anyone who has found themselves in a similar situation. I made this video with the hope that maybe someone, somewhere would learn from the mistakes shown here and avoid them without having to learn the hard way. The other thing about mistakes and learning is, there are some mistakes you can't learn from. Because you die. I am thankful this paddler came out OK.
Great video much appreciated 👍👍
Sorry about your friend thanks for saving us
How is going slower than the river maintaining control? Seems to me if you are going slower than the river you are liable to get stuck in a feature like he did.
Ferry.
@@montanazach7033 What does that mean?
@@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017 Moving slower than the water flows is called, "ferrying". You have 3 general states: eddied out, ferrying, and driving. If you're not in one of those states, you're out of control. There are moments when you're airborne or sliding on rock which are not these 3 and also in control, but I think you get the idea.
I sow this video before, but you've done great analyse! Thanks!
Italian subtitled version - th-cam.com/video/rUg5VDQfEnc/w-d-xo.html
Subtitles don't stay up long enough to read. Other than that, looks like good work.
good video california carl
He could see he was headed for trouble and yet he did not paddle HARD. Maybe he was utterly exhausted from earlier swims?
Did he live or die
isn't the buoyancy with the kayak greater than buoyancy of paddler alone? Meaning you get faster to the surface with kayak.
Watch from 3:22.
@@montanazach7033 yes, I saw explanation at 4:50 and when the guy resurfaced kayak was already on the surface.
@@MaximumEfficiency It's going thru a cave/undercut/etc. where you need to be out to minimize your chance of getting pinned. This guy got lucky the boat didn't pin before he got out, just plain luck. Many drownings have happened that had a good chance of not happening if they were outta the boat. An example of a danger like this is hydroelectric rock on Section IV of the Chattooga. 100% if you get sucked in there in your boat you're getting pinned and will die unless you're with a world class rescue team. Many such dangers on every river.
@@montanazach7033 ok tnx for explanation
never knew this
Bro I'm 13 and did class 3 Rapids I'm lucky lol allmost died 3 times
Thank's a lot !!!
Seems like the margin for error is almost nonexistent in this sport
The margin for error is big most of the time. BUT: sometimes there are areas where a mistake can mean death. Knowledge is key.
Going the speed of the current does NOT equate to being out of control (0.57).
If there isn't a speed difference between the hull and the water then you are going where the river goes, not where you want to go.
Very. Very. Lucky.
he seemed lazy and unaware of the danger
Current slows around most rocks, but actually accelerates near the mouth of a large sieve or cave like this. IMO he intended to make the eddy on the right, but didn't anticipate this.
IDK - looked more like inexperience than lazy to me. Didn't know what to do for a critical few seconds so didn't do anything. Like Zach said - seemed oblivious to the danger until it was too late. When in doubt - paddle!
To a degree you are correct, EDUCATION IS KEY. Without knowing what you're doing or getting yourself into this can be a very dangerous sport! But done right and it's a lifetime of entertainment, beauty and experience like no other!
Getting in the water was the first mistake 🤔
Holy crap he got lucky!!! As soon as I saw your title I grabbed my wife and said how much you want to bet this is an undercut rock?!?! I used to teach WW boating and loved it. BUT ALWAYS made a point to stop and show my students exactly what to look for and how to avoid it as well as why. Often times when possible I would demonstrate to them just how dangerous undercuts and sieves can be by using a piece of wood floating by!
why didn't yo u tittle this video dude gets suck into cave and comes out the otherside XD
This rock is on my local rafting section. I know all about it if you might have any questions. =]
How many people has it eaten?
I can't watch this.....
he didn't die :)
No thanks. I'll stick with snow skiing on the bunny slope.
which danheim track is this? nice music
I apologize for making that stupid comment
I'm not coming back to Augusta no matter how hard you troll.
@@@montanazach7033 what?
You need to hire an instructor and learn to kayak properly on wild water
(Soca river)
Applying labels and making demands is ineffective.
Soca, the land of massive obvious undercuts 😂
Total inexperience, all the time and space to pick a line, seemed clueless
1 this paddler is not skilled enough for this grade of water
2 basic scouting and prep would have warned them of the danger
3 the people paddling with this paddler are either delusional or equally inexperienced and therefore dangerous
4 paddling is not the hyper complicated frame by frame game of roulette that the commentator suggests
1. this is class 2-3
2. it's commercial section where thousands of toursts go
Wow clickbait… I was looking for a video about how to die in a kayak not how to not die in a kayak. 🫤