My #1 cull from all this is The Sound. Man, I have owned at least a couple of those on and off before and always passed them by. So cool. And I now fondly recall reading the Crass book and knowing all their stuff at one time, and haven't thought about them in a few years.
Woah! I tried the Magazine after Martin and Davey talked about them - BRILLIANT. And the Josef K Davey picked and yes - it's wonderful (the two versions he discussed are on spotify) - kinda hard to believe it's not from 1983 as he said - uber influential. I'm not sure I'm with him and Martin on the "it's a British thing" but they defended the idea well and clearly the major acts were from there. I'm always excited to discover new bands and I picked up one from everyone (except Reed but as he said, he was going for low hanging fruit). I need to get that book they discussed. It's so fascinating that it wasn't just "UK" - but that, from reading up on wiki, every state in the UK has a unique feature and sound. So Manchester and Liverpool are different. As Davey shows Glasgow is a bedrock, just like Sheffield for synthpop and Liverpool for British invasion. Man, how many genres and bands, percentage wise, do we owe the UK for? Best 60s music? Beatles, Stones, Who. Hard rock? Sabbath, Heep, Purple. Metal? Maiden, Priest. Look at the bands covered on this channel, or the biggest vids on SOT. ALL UK. I have no idea WHY but I've got to see these guys talk about it sometime (and spur me on to finally visiting England). BTW just as an aside, Davey's voice is like hypnosis, it's ASMR. When I speak in a nasal East coast accent nothing sounds classy! The Brits could talk nonsense and we just believe it when they have voices like that!
From USA - Minutemen, Mission of Burma, Husker Du, The Feelies, Pylon, MX-80, DNA, Swans, Sonic Youth - and the fact that there are a basically a bunch of pre-punk post-punk bands - Devo, Pere Ubu, Television, Chrome, Residents, Suicide etc From UK - The Fall, PiL, Gang of Four, Wire, Killing Joke, Swell Maps, Joy Division, Mekons, The Slits, Magazine,The Pop Group, The Sound, The Raincoats
My 5 favorite post punk bands are: Public Image Limited: so many great and influential albums. My personal favorite of theirs is First Issue. Such a great album with so many memorable songs on it! James Chance and the Contortions: Such a great band with an incredible feel. Mixing in jazz and soul music into the post punk musical framework. Buy Is a brilliant album everyone should listen to. New Model Army: An often overlooked band that released a masterpiece of an album called Thunder and Consolation! Please go and give it a listen. The song Stupid Questions is just plain brilliant. Joy Division: legendary band with some fantastic music. The Still album is my favorite release from erthem. Killing Joke: My favorite band ever. I love almost all their albums. If we are talking strictly post punk the best album for that in my opinion is the incredible What’s THIS For….! To me that’s the best post punk release ever. My favorite Killing Joke release however is Extremities, Dirt and Various Repressed Emotions. But that’s another conversation for another time.
Good to hear a mention for the highly under appreciated and largely unknown (in the US) New Model Army. And yes, although Thunder and Consolation is my long time favorite, I absolutely love the evolution of their entire discography. Some favorites of note: Today is a Good Day, Impurity, Winter, The Love of Hopeless Causes, Ghost of Cain, and Eight. Cheers.
Great episode guys. I feel that Martin's parameters are too narrow though. There has been a great resurgence in the post punk sound in the last few years. Bands such as Fontaines DC, The Murder Capital and Bdrmm really deserve mention. A sound while current, that really honours the past.
a US band that I think deserves mention is Mission of Burma. they certainly meet the criteria. curiously PiL never got a mention, but I think they were one of the pioneers of post-punk. and lastly, I think more people should know The Raincoats. they were more diy than most of the others and really experimental.
The Sound. Thunder Up from 1987 is one of the best Sound albums ever. Adrian Borland is already writing up future plans it’s so morbid. It’s a sad album really in that sense. You really feel for the guy while listening to the album. RIP Adrian Borland.
I feel so ignorant just mentioning Geordie. But the other members of the band are so peerless as well. Even as they got heavier later on there’s always that post punk undercurrent that separates them from the rest of the pack. And their lyrics? What they were preaching 40 yrs ago is so prevalent today. It’s scary! Even on a beautiful landscape of an album called Brighter than a thousand Suns, those lyrics are just morbid as hell…..
Thank you for a very interesting and wide-ranging discussion. This is just a ramble responding to different threads. I didn't read the book Rip It Up. My perspective comes from being a music geek growing up in that era. I never thought of post-punk as a genre per se. It was more of critics' short-hand for bands that were somewhat rooted in punk but were trying to do something different. Few bands overtly embraced that label. I also have trouble attaching the label of post-punk to bands that enjoyed success in the punk era. Siouxie and the Banshees and Magazine are cases in point, even though they share sonic qualities with post-punk bands. At the risk of contradicting myself, Magazine had self-consciously distanced themselves from punk and were perhaps the forerunners to post-punk. Ditto for Joy Division. Interestingly, Public Image Limited was never mentioned, though some may consider them anti-rock (whatever that means). XTC and the P-Furs had long careers though I always associated them with New Wave (a fairly elastic category). I think of P-Punk as embracing avant-garde and art music. Pere Ubu and Suicide (a band with a long history) would be examples. The Talking Heads and Television were punk by association and not musically. But maybe thought of as forerunners for post-punk. They were clearly a punk band in their earlier days, but evolved to incorporate roots music. I never thought of them as post-punk. For Canadian bands, Rational Youth and Men without Hats can be construed as p-punk. The Meat Puppets are an interesting case. I will stop there. Thanks again for an excellent discussion.
Fantastic episode. and one great band after another. Of all bands being mentioned Killing Joke is my absolute favorite. But when I heard Martin say about an obivous band being left out (even though I love Wire), my thought was The Fall (who are kind of like the posterchild for the genre in my eyes).
The band I like that is connected to post punk is The Cure. The metamorphosis of their sound throughout the 80's, instead of feeling like commercial sellouts, was quite fascinating. By Disintegration the slight prog nature they had was in full force.
We are all Romans, we live to regret it! Anyone who has drummed will probably find something to like in This Heat, Hayward comes across quite a wicked genius...
Sonic Youth, Swans, Birthday Party, Big Black, Husker Du. Tons of Australian bands. Even R.E.M., The Cramps, Gun Club, Suicide, Television, The Saints!!, Minute Men. Sooo many. I would even argue that most of the best post-punk bands weren't from the U.K.
This is a you tube video I've been scouring the internet to see. Already know Davey and Martin from Sea of Tranquility and much enjoyed their contributions, but always felt that " Post Punk" has no respect there despite the astonishing creativity of those thee or four years after '78". The term "New Wave" was hated in the UK at the time, and has always been since, but makes sense in the US. I think the label "Post Punk" is valuable, as you have to remember how before punk Led Zeppelin were seen as almost the perfect example of Rock at it's peak and was utterly rejected by punk and "post Punk" continued that ethos. Interesting that two bands that didn't get mentioned, that I loved at the time, and aren't unacknowledged as Post Punk pioneers are "Swell Maps" (loved by Sonic Youth") and "The Fall" (apparently loved by everyone ) ( Hex Enduction Hour") . Made especially good by the Chairman of the session admitting his complete lack of awareness of this Genre yet making such a good contribution. One of the best You Tube contributions I've seen for a long while.
Brighter is a masterpiece. I think amongst KJ fans. The next release Outside the Gate has no business being a KJ release. It was meant to be a Jaz solo album through and through.
Fun listen. Interesting choices. Dream Syndicate - first album could be called post punk (it was part of the new psychedelic era). Their use of guitar feedback was amazing. The title track is crazy in a good way. I love the Meat Puppets - never thought of them as post punk. Decent justification! Joy Division - highly influential. Became New Order (their first album was actually derivative of Joy Division). I actually think Ian Curtis is amazing. My top three would include Wire, Gang of Four, and Joy Division. Also - I loved hearing Mr. Gallagher's perspective. Fabulous to all!
Very nice discussion of some truly great and mostly underappreciated (and even unknown nowadays) bands. While I tend to agree with Martin that Post-Punk really is/was a British sound, there's no denying that Meat Puppets and Dream Syndicate are fantastic bands in the same basic vein. R.E.M. would be in there too if we're talking American bands. I mean you seriously can't go wrong with any of the bands mentioned, can you? Siouxsie, Joy Division, Cure, the Furs, XTC, Jesus & Mary Chain, Magazine, etc.
Thank you so much GarganoA for your comments! Definitely agree, all great bands. And I have to definitely dig deeper into Magazine and Jesus and Mary Chain!
Other than those mentioned... This Heat The Pop Group The Durutti Column Is it punk or post-punk?: Swell Maps From USA: Tuxedomoon And I'll just mention The Fall also. Thanks for this video, very much appreciated!!
I would catalog Swell Maps under post-punk before that under Punk. I have always a problem at thinking about The Birthday Party as a post- punk band (though they truely were) as they kind of stand alone in my mind.
I will second that the Dream Syndicate’s the Universe Inside is a great psychedelic listen. It’s the only Dream Syndicate album I own, but it’s so damn cool, if the others are this good, I’m buying them all. I have to get Barry Adamson’s latest Know Where to Run. Props to Martin for choosing Magazine.
Hi Kyle. Thanks for your comment! The Universe Inside is so excellent and sounds like nothing else they've done. While the first two and last four are very strong, I would rank Out of the Grey and Ghost Stories at the bottom of my list and they still have great tracks on them.
@@JohntheMusicNut Thanks for the ranking. I don't know why I never paid attention to them back in the 80s, but I remember seeing reviews in Spin. Better late than never.
You're welcome. And I am with you Kyle! I only knew of them for the longest time. I couldn't have told you what they sounded like til 2016. Checked out The Days of Wine and Roses and they had me.
There are some fantastic bands in this genre. The top of my list goes to The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees, with the slightest edge going to The Cure. Number three is Bauhaus, My honorable mentions are Joy Division and Echo and the Bunnymen.
I tend to get a little hazy on where the lines are drawn between post punk, new wave and alternative. Before I watched, I was thinking my top three were The Replacements, Husker Du and The Cure, but according to your definition, only the Cure qualifies and Martin didn't agree on that one. I guess it's sort of murky territory. The Replacements and Husker Du may be better classified as early alternative. Anyway, some cool picks by everyone. Davy, nice to see Jesus & Mary Chain get some love. Psychocandy is a drop dead classic, but I'm also quite fond of Darklands and Honey's Dead.
Yeah, I picked it as the earliest (and best known) so closer to the real post punk scene. Plus I think with a legit iconic album like that and the seminal book on post-punk being named for a Glasgow act it helped my case of picking 3 hometown bands.
@@ScottBerry-yn8rw Fuck yeah, seen em 6 or 7 times - it's a tradition they play Glasgow on St. Patricks Day. MASSIVE here. Not in the rest of the UK but in Ireland and Glasgow, yeah.
Great video, love the fact each of you went in a different direction. Post punk is one of the greatest or maybe the greatest rock genre despite being "anti music" or "anti rock". If you need evidence that is a great genre just try to build a decent post punk collection on vinyl. Along with rock en español, punk and trash, post punk is one of the hardest rock genres to collect on vinyl.
Thank you for your comments Alejandro! And thank you for acknowledging how we went in different directions here. Your last sentence is so spot on. Fans of these genres are so loyal. They're not parting with that vinyl so easily! :)
My all time favorite post punk band is The Cure. Actually, they’re my favorite band of all time. After that, I’d say Killing Joke and Siouxsie….I also love The Smiths but not sure if they’re really “post punk”.
IMHO, you guys missed the mark here. The band missing from consideration is The Comsat Angels. This band bridged two genres of music not just Punk to post-punk with their post-punk release of "Waiting For a Miracle." Trouser Press reported in a review that "Waiting For a Miracle" was hailed in one UK paper as the greatest debut LP of all time, it remains a stunning masterwork. This LP was critically acclaimed by many. Their sophomore effort saw the release of Sleep No More in 1981 after getting off the road touring with U2 and The Sound. "Sleep No More" paved the road from Post Punk to Alternative influencing bands decades later like the Editors, Interpol also Blacklist, and Bell Hollow. Mark Kermode, a film critic for BBC Radio 5 Live and The Observer, championed the Comsat Angels when reviewing the Ian Curtis biopic Control, stating that the Comsats were "the band that Joy Division should have been". In May 2008, Kermode interviewed British poet Simon Armitage on BBC Two's The Culture Show and the two discussed their love of the band.
I'd like to suggest that X might be considered post punk. From the beginning, they were never the same as any other punk bands even when they were lumped in as punk.
🤠 Talkin' bout my generation! Sure, The Sound, The Names, Pigbag, Virgin Prunes, The Fire Engines, PiL, The Fall etc from the UK. But also a whole mess of post-punk bands out of the US, like Chrome, Butth*le Surfers, Dream Syndicate, Lung Overcoat, Minimal Man, Sonic Youth, The Minutemen, Culturcide.... There's also tons of post-punk bands out of Germany, France, Japan etc. It was a worldwide phenomenon.
Post-punk is a genre easy to classify in aesthetics but hard to define sonically. Everyone has its own way to classify it. For me it has to be from UK - for the same reasons as Davy and Martin's - and it ends in '82. Bands that started after 83 you can easily put in another genre, like Martin said. And most bands that were very post-punk (Cure, Echo, PIL or Banshees) became too evolved and lush to be called post-punk after 82 (almost like call Maiden, Saxon, Leppard still NWOBHM in 1984). But I found difficult to NOT classify New Model Army's music from 82/1984 post-punk. XTC started post-punkish, but were out by 1982 (confirming my theory). The biggest omissions were PIL/The Fall. The biggest band was U2 (I thought of them prior to Martin's answer). C'mon: Boy and October are totally post-punk.
Martin is correct about narrowing the definition to the UK to make it coherent. If you include American or Australian (or German, or really anywhere but England) artists post-punk precedes punk. The Velvet Underground, the Stooges, MC5, early Bowie, Roxy Music, Brian Eno, Kraftwerk and the rest of the Krautrock artists, New York Dolls, Patti Smith, Television, Richard Hell, Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, Pere Ubu, Devo, Dead Boys among others preceded both the Sex Pistols and any idea of "orthodox" or primitive punk. Punk of any variety started out arty, and some artists took it and made it simpler, more abrasive, more direct. The narrative is backwards. The only place it sort of fits is in the UK if you make sure to exclude the Bowie/Roxy/Eno category. Which I don't think any of the artists playing punk did, but it makes a coherent narrative of post-punk more plausible.
Not heard the term post-punk before. Back in the day, the bands mentioned on the show would have been considered new wave, indie or alternative. Based on what was described, I’m going with Adam & The Ants (Dirk era), Killing Joke & Echo & The Bunny Men but I might be wrong. Would The Ruts or The Pretenders be post punk?
What would you call The Smiths ? Perhaps too melodic for post-punk, but I never really liked the term jangle pop either personally. I would like to mention The Sound and Cocteau Twins as well, two bands I love very much.
Cocteau Twins were on my longlist, before I decided to try the Glasgow School experiment (they're from Grangemouth, near Edinburgh). The Smiths...I would say "Indie pop/rock" works best before Indie became far, far too overused.
I think the period was fertile because punk had sparked a wave of creativity across a provincial towns of the UK all of which were in a state of industrial decay rather grim and the kids latched onto all the new sounds coming out very early synthesizers and drum machines. The Cure were from Surrey and Siouxsie is from Kent. Joy Division the Fall Magazine and A Certain Ratio were my favorite Manchester bands My fave band from the Scottish scene was the Cocteau Twins.
@@JohntheMusicNut The problem is, if you include American and Australian artists, post-punk precedes punk, and it screws up the narrative. Pretty sure the Velvet Underground precedes everybody else, unless the Who and the Kinks were actually punk.
The Fall, The Chameleons & The Smiths are some of the best. The Chameleons are in my top 5 bands and are criminally underrated. Mark is a top guy, too. He really cares about his fans.
Top 3 post-punk bans? Tough question, but it would have to come from a squad of Wire, PIL, Killing Joke, The Fall, Gang of Four, The Pop Group. The Cure and the Banshees sort of go beyond post Punk. I've read shout outs for This Heat and Cabaret Voltaire, I'm a massive fan of both bands but they are something very different, sure punk had opened the door for them to do their thing but it's a bit limiting to say post-punk. PS: JAMC aren't post-punk, pic again Davy (although double marks for picking Josef K)
they called talking heads,television etc new wave,used to have a late 70s comp called new wave,bands like talking heads,television,but also stuff from ramones,dead boys and if i remember the damned,so the more cerebral stuff was termed new wave,and the fast,distorted stuff punk
When the Ramones, Television, Talking Heads, and Dead Boys were all playing CBGBs it was all just punk. When the Velvet Underground, Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5 were all playing it, it didn't have a name yet.
That's why you can't include American bands, it messes up the narrative. Pere Ubu, Devo, Television, Talking Heads, not to mention the Velvet Underground who were before everybody.
For me, Post-punk means post rock'n'roll. So I'm more in line with your host. Doing away with music rooted r'n'b and blues influenced rock (as well as the technically elitist Prog movement) and the values they promoted. I don't see why the term has to be limited to British-only bands. It's a revisionist category that makes sense in hindsight.
The reason I didn't mention them? I taped an ep the day after this with Peter Kerr on Rock Daydream Nation about Ultravox - we looked at Ha! Ha! Ha! from the Foxx era and Vienna from the Midge era. Should be up this weekend.
@@DavysFlicks yes,i wrote that before i got to the end,lol interesting you mention the glasgow bands,the raincoat scene,i think it was dubbed.when i was a young rocker,my girlfriend at the time,got into glasgow art school,didnt see her for a month,and she turned up with short pink hair,and totally different dress sense,told me it was over,and that she was going out with some foppish indie /band bloke from the art college lol so i wasnt fond of that scene,though i saw edwyn collins years later,at a mind awareness gig,and thought he was really good.but killing joke,massively under rated band,a lot heavier than most metal bands oh and janglepop,hated that too lol primal scream were a janglepop band,before going more rock,if i remember
@@elbib2446 Yeah and Primal Scream had their big kinda dance music era too with Screamadelica. There's a big art school scene here which feeds into the music. CHeers!
You guys need to distinguish between bands with a few cool songs and bands with critical acclaim for their entire career. The Comsat Angels have critical acclaim across their entire career and many LPs. Your failing to recognize this band says volumes about your aggregate wisdom of music knowledge of Post-Punk and beyond.
Might I suggest a Dark Horse album episode on the Stone Temple Pilots 2001 album Shangri La Dee Da. That’s an album that went largely ignored back then and barely went gold. I personally ignored the album due to the stupid name lol. But I’d be interested to hear you guys thoughts on it to the degree any of y’all listen to STP.
What are your favorite post punk bands?
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My #1 cull from all this is The Sound. Man, I have owned at least a couple of those on and off before and always passed them by. So cool. And I now fondly recall reading the Crass book and knowing all their stuff at one time, and haven't thought about them in a few years.
Woah! I tried the Magazine after Martin and Davey talked about them - BRILLIANT. And the Josef K Davey picked and yes - it's wonderful (the two versions he discussed are on spotify) - kinda hard to believe it's not from 1983 as he said - uber influential. I'm not sure I'm with him and Martin on the "it's a British thing" but they defended the idea well and clearly the major acts were from there. I'm always excited to discover new bands and I picked up one from everyone (except Reed but as he said, he was going for low hanging fruit).
I need to get that book they discussed. It's so fascinating that it wasn't just "UK" - but that, from reading up on wiki, every state in the UK has a unique feature and sound. So Manchester and Liverpool are different. As Davey shows Glasgow is a bedrock, just like Sheffield for synthpop and Liverpool for British invasion.
Man, how many genres and bands, percentage wise, do we owe the UK for? Best 60s music? Beatles, Stones, Who. Hard rock? Sabbath, Heep, Purple. Metal? Maiden, Priest.
Look at the bands covered on this channel, or the biggest vids on SOT. ALL UK. I have no idea WHY but I've got to see these guys talk about it sometime (and spur me on to finally visiting England). BTW just as an aside, Davey's voice is like hypnosis, it's ASMR. When I speak in a nasal East coast accent nothing sounds classy! The Brits could talk nonsense and we just believe it when they have voices like that!
Props to Davy for the brief mention of the band The Wedding Present.
Cheers!
Good one.
From USA - Minutemen, Mission of Burma, Husker Du, The Feelies, Pylon, MX-80, DNA, Swans, Sonic Youth
- and the fact that there are a basically a bunch of pre-punk post-punk bands - Devo, Pere Ubu, Television, Chrome, Residents, Suicide etc
From UK - The Fall, PiL, Gang of Four, Wire, Killing Joke, Swell Maps, Joy Division, Mekons, The Slits, Magazine,The Pop Group, The Sound, The Raincoats
This was a blast to be on. Cheers!
great to have you on!
My 5 favorite post punk bands are:
Public Image Limited: so many great and influential albums. My personal favorite of theirs is First Issue. Such a great album with so many memorable songs on it!
James Chance and the Contortions: Such a great band with an incredible feel. Mixing in jazz and soul music into the post punk musical framework. Buy Is a brilliant album everyone should listen to.
New Model Army: An often overlooked band that released a masterpiece of an album called Thunder and Consolation! Please go and give it a listen. The song Stupid Questions is just plain brilliant.
Joy Division: legendary band with some fantastic music. The Still album is my favorite release from erthem.
Killing Joke: My favorite band ever. I love almost all their albums. If we are talking strictly post punk the best album for that in my opinion is the incredible What’s THIS For….! To me that’s the best post punk release ever. My favorite Killing Joke release however is Extremities, Dirt and Various Repressed Emotions. But that’s another conversation for another time.
Good to hear a mention for the highly under appreciated and largely unknown (in the US) New Model Army. And yes, although Thunder and Consolation is my long time favorite, I absolutely love the evolution of their entire discography. Some favorites of note: Today is a Good Day, Impurity, Winter, The Love of Hopeless Causes, Ghost of Cain, and Eight. Cheers.
Great episode guys. I feel that Martin's parameters are too narrow though. There has been a great resurgence in the post punk sound in the last few years. Bands such as Fontaines DC, The Murder Capital and Bdrmm really deserve mention. A sound while current, that really honours the past.
Wow! Easily my favorite Contrarian episode so far, talking about one great band after another! I especially loved Davey‘s Jesus & Mary Chain pick.
a US band that I think deserves mention is Mission of Burma. they certainly meet the criteria. curiously PiL never got a mention, but I think they were one of the pioneers of post-punk. and lastly, I think more people should know The Raincoats. they were more diy than most of the others and really experimental.
I always learn so much from Martin and the others on this channel.Proud to support you guys!!Keep up the great work!
thank you very much 🙏
The Sound. Thunder Up from 1987 is one of the best Sound albums ever. Adrian Borland is already writing up future plans it’s so morbid. It’s a sad album really in that sense. You really feel for the guy while listening to the album. RIP Adrian Borland.
What I call the trinity... The Chameleons, The Sound, Comsat Angels
Greetings John. Wondering if you heard Propaganda. (1979 recordings released in 1999) Has become my favorite album from The Sound.
@@toddhill7483 yup i got everything they did, great recordings.
@@erorufurakku6378 you’re missing out. Chameleons are among the best ever. Better than Comsat and at least equal if not better than the Sound
The Durutti Column, Young Marble Giants, Magazine, Orange Juice, Close Lobsters, Delta 5, The Neats, Bush Tetras, A Certain Ratio
For me the be all and end all is Killing Joke. What a catalogue. Geordie has a huge wall of sound. And still no guitar solo yet!
Killing Joke is one of my favorites of all time.
I feel so ignorant just mentioning Geordie. But the other members of the band are so peerless as well. Even as they got heavier later on there’s always that post punk undercurrent that separates them from the rest of the pack. And their lyrics? What they were preaching 40 yrs ago is so prevalent today. It’s scary! Even on a beautiful landscape of an album called Brighter than a thousand Suns, those lyrics are just morbid as hell…..
Thank you for a very interesting and wide-ranging discussion. This is just a ramble responding to different threads. I didn't read the book Rip It Up. My perspective comes from being a music geek growing up in that era. I never thought of post-punk as a genre per se. It was more of critics' short-hand for bands that were somewhat rooted in punk but were trying to do something different. Few bands overtly embraced that label. I also have trouble attaching the label of post-punk to bands that enjoyed success in the punk era. Siouxie and the Banshees and Magazine are cases in point, even though they share sonic qualities with post-punk bands. At the risk of contradicting myself, Magazine had self-consciously distanced themselves from punk and were perhaps the forerunners to post-punk. Ditto for Joy Division. Interestingly, Public Image Limited was never mentioned, though some may consider them anti-rock (whatever that means). XTC and the P-Furs had long careers though I always associated them with New Wave (a fairly elastic category). I think of P-Punk as embracing avant-garde and art music. Pere Ubu and Suicide (a band with a long history) would be examples. The Talking Heads and Television were punk by association and not musically. But maybe thought of as forerunners for post-punk. They were clearly a punk band in their earlier days, but evolved to incorporate roots music. I never thought of them as post-punk. For Canadian bands, Rational Youth and Men without Hats can be construed as p-punk. The Meat Puppets are an interesting case. I will stop there. Thanks again for an excellent discussion.
Wire is my favorite in this category. Also love Magazine, Public Image Ltd., some Pere Ubu, Joy Divison/early New Order
Great show! And lovely to see a Revstar hanging in the background 😊.
Fantastic episode. and one great band after another. Of all bands being mentioned Killing Joke is my absolute favorite. But when I heard Martin say about an obivous band being left out (even though I love Wire), my thought was The Fall (who are kind of like the posterchild for the genre in my eyes).
The band I like that is connected to post punk is The Cure. The metamorphosis of their sound throughout the 80's, instead of feeling like commercial sellouts, was quite fascinating. By Disintegration the slight prog nature they had was in full force.
Playing the two This Heat albums right now and reading the Wiki - wow! Lots of great recommendations here.
We are all Romans, we live to regret it! Anyone who has drummed will probably find something to like in This Heat, Hayward comes across quite a wicked genius...
Great show guys..has to be joy division..the fall and the cure...plus magazine....
Agree with Martin that it's a British thing...
Sonic Youth, Swans, Birthday Party, Big Black, Husker Du. Tons of Australian bands. Even R.E.M., The Cramps, Gun Club, Suicide, Television, The Saints!!, Minute Men. Sooo many. I would even argue that most of the best post-punk bands weren't from the U.K.
This is a you tube video I've been scouring the internet to see. Already know Davey and Martin from Sea of Tranquility and much enjoyed their contributions, but always felt that " Post Punk" has no respect there despite the astonishing creativity of those thee or four years after '78". The term "New Wave" was hated in the UK at the time, and has always been since, but makes sense in the US. I think the label "Post Punk" is valuable, as you have to remember how before punk Led Zeppelin were seen as almost the perfect example of Rock at it's peak and was utterly rejected by punk and "post Punk" continued that ethos. Interesting that two bands that didn't get mentioned, that I loved at the time, and aren't unacknowledged as Post Punk pioneers are "Swell Maps" (loved by Sonic Youth") and "The Fall" (apparently loved by everyone ) ( Hex Enduction Hour") . Made especially good by the Chairman of the session admitting his complete lack of awareness of this Genre yet making such a good contribution. One of the best You Tube contributions I've seen for a long while.
Thanks very much Arlene, yes - I do get around between here, SOT, Rock Warehaus, Daydream Nation and....oh - my channel! Cheers!
So many great bands mentioned today..joy division.. orange juice.. meat puppets.. these were the bands of my teenage years..
I'm glad to have put O.J. in there - a few converts already!
Great Discussion. Glad some love was shown to Killing Joke. Great, great band.
Cheers, I really wanted to get them in so I'm glad to have had a few mins for honourables as I LOVE the KJ.
Not many KJ fans would say this, but Brighter than a Thousand Suns is my favorite release.
@@toddhill7483 I would not say that either, but I like everything they did, to some extent, and it still is a good album.
Brighter is a masterpiece. I think amongst KJ fans. The next release Outside the Gate has no business being a KJ release. It was meant to be a Jaz solo album through and through.
Fun listen. Interesting choices. Dream Syndicate - first album could be called post punk (it was part of the new psychedelic era). Their use of guitar feedback was amazing. The title track is crazy in a good way. I love the Meat Puppets - never thought of them as post punk. Decent justification! Joy Division - highly influential. Became New Order (their first album was actually derivative of Joy Division). I actually think Ian Curtis is amazing. My top three would include Wire, Gang of Four, and Joy Division. Also - I loved hearing Mr. Gallagher's perspective. Fabulous to all!
Thanks very much!
good to see The Contrarians stretch to post punk, my 3 picks : This Heat, early Clock DVA and from the US there's Ike Yard
Very nice discussion of some truly great and mostly underappreciated (and even unknown nowadays) bands. While I tend to agree with Martin that Post-Punk really is/was a British sound, there's no denying that Meat Puppets and Dream Syndicate are fantastic bands in the same basic vein. R.E.M. would be in there too if we're talking American bands. I mean you seriously can't go wrong with any of the bands mentioned, can you? Siouxsie, Joy Division, Cure, the Furs, XTC, Jesus & Mary Chain, Magazine, etc.
Thank you so much GarganoA for your comments! Definitely agree, all great bands. And I have to definitely dig deeper into Magazine and Jesus and Mary Chain!
Echo and the bunneymen absolutely
Glad I got them in there!
Other than those mentioned...
This Heat
The Pop Group
The Durutti Column
Is it punk or post-punk?: Swell Maps
From USA: Tuxedomoon
And I'll just mention The Fall also. Thanks for this video, very much appreciated!!
🤠 Jane from Occupied Europe! ❤
I would catalog Swell Maps under post-punk before that under Punk. I have always a problem at thinking about The Birthday Party as a post- punk band (though they truely were) as they kind of stand alone in my mind.
Entertainment episode gentlemen and some great choices. Kudos to Martin for XTC and Magazine. Two of my favorite bands.
I will second that the Dream Syndicate’s the Universe Inside is a great psychedelic listen. It’s the only Dream Syndicate album I own, but it’s so damn cool, if the others are this good, I’m buying them all. I have to get Barry Adamson’s latest Know Where to Run. Props to Martin for choosing Magazine.
Hi Kyle. Thanks for your comment! The Universe Inside is so excellent and sounds like nothing else they've done. While the first two and last four are very strong, I would rank Out of the Grey and Ghost Stories at the bottom of my list and they still have great tracks on them.
@@JohntheMusicNut Thanks for the ranking. I don't know why I never paid attention to them back in the 80s, but I remember seeing reviews in Spin. Better late than never.
You're welcome. And I am with you Kyle! I only knew of them for the longest time. I couldn't have told you what they sounded like til 2016. Checked out The Days of Wine and Roses and they had me.
There are some fantastic bands in this genre. The top of my list goes to The Cure and Siouxsie and the Banshees, with the slightest edge going to The Cure. Number three is Bauhaus, My honorable mentions are Joy Division and Echo and the Bunnymen.
So many great bands, killing joke, magazine pil, wire, the fall. I'd put Devo in there also.
I was glad to get Killing Joke in there for sure. Coulda done a top 10 honestly.
I tend to get a little hazy on where the lines are drawn between post punk, new wave and alternative. Before I watched, I was thinking my top three were The Replacements, Husker Du and The Cure, but according to your definition, only the Cure qualifies and Martin didn't agree on that one. I guess it's sort of murky territory. The Replacements and Husker Du may be better classified as early alternative. Anyway, some cool picks by everyone. Davy, nice to see Jesus & Mary Chain get some love. Psychocandy is a drop dead classic, but I'm also quite fond of Darklands and Honey's Dead.
Yeah, I picked it as the earliest (and best known) so closer to the real post punk scene. Plus I think with a legit iconic album like that and the seminal book on post-punk being named for a Glasgow act it helped my case of picking 3 hometown bands.
@@DavysFlicks Are you a fan of Stiff Little Fingers?
@@ScottBerry-yn8rw Fuck yeah, seen em 6 or 7 times - it's a tradition they play Glasgow on St. Patricks Day. MASSIVE here. Not in the rest of the UK but in Ireland and Glasgow, yeah.
Killing Joke; the undisputed champions of heavy post-punk.
Post punk seems like an all encompassing umbrella term for other genres to be under : goth, industrial, new wave etc..
Excellent episode fellas.
Great video, love the fact each of you went in a different direction. Post punk is one of the greatest or maybe the greatest rock genre despite being "anti music" or "anti rock". If you need evidence that is a great genre just try to build a decent post punk collection on vinyl. Along with rock en español, punk and trash, post punk is one of the hardest rock genres to collect on vinyl.
Thank you for your comments Alejandro! And thank you for acknowledging how we went in different directions here. Your last sentence is so spot on. Fans of these genres are so loyal. They're not parting with that vinyl so easily! :)
American post punk the first 2 that come to mind are Sonic Youth and Swans. Mission of Burma as well.
My all time favorite post punk band is The Cure. Actually, they’re my favorite band of all time. After that, I’d say Killing Joke and Siouxsie….I also love The Smiths but not sure if they’re really “post punk”.
IMHO, you guys missed the mark here. The band missing from consideration is The Comsat Angels. This band bridged two genres of music not just Punk to post-punk with their post-punk release of "Waiting For a Miracle."
Trouser Press reported in a review that "Waiting For a Miracle" was hailed in one UK paper as the greatest debut LP of all time, it remains a stunning masterwork. This LP was critically acclaimed by many.
Their sophomore effort saw the release of Sleep No More in 1981 after getting off the road touring with U2 and The Sound. "Sleep No More" paved the road from Post Punk to Alternative influencing bands decades later like the Editors, Interpol also Blacklist, and Bell Hollow.
Mark Kermode, a film critic for BBC Radio 5 Live and The Observer, championed the Comsat Angels when reviewing the Ian Curtis biopic Control, stating that the Comsats were "the band that Joy Division should have been". In May 2008, Kermode interviewed British poet Simon Armitage on BBC Two's The Culture Show and the two discussed their love of the band.
I'd like to suggest that X might be considered post punk. From the beginning, they were never the same as any other punk bands even when they were lumped in as punk.
🤠 Talkin' bout my generation! Sure, The Sound, The Names, Pigbag, Virgin Prunes, The Fire Engines, PiL, The Fall etc from the UK. But also a whole mess of post-punk bands out of the US, like Chrome, Butth*le Surfers, Dream Syndicate, Lung Overcoat, Minimal Man, Sonic Youth, The Minutemen, Culturcide.... There's also tons of post-punk bands out of Germany, France, Japan etc. It was a worldwide phenomenon.
Post-punk is a genre easy to classify in aesthetics but hard to define sonically. Everyone has its own way to classify it. For me it has to be from UK - for the same reasons as Davy and Martin's - and it ends in '82. Bands that started after 83 you can easily put in another genre, like Martin said. And most bands that were very post-punk (Cure, Echo, PIL or Banshees) became too evolved and lush to be called post-punk after 82 (almost like call Maiden, Saxon, Leppard still NWOBHM in 1984). But I found difficult to NOT classify New Model Army's music from 82/1984 post-punk. XTC started post-punkish, but were out by 1982 (confirming my theory). The biggest omissions were PIL/The Fall. The biggest band was U2 (I thought of them prior to Martin's answer). C'mon: Boy and October are totally post-punk.
October kinda sucks though! ;) I'll give you Boy! Cheers!
Yup, October does kinda suck, but a pretty post-punk album nevertheless. Maybe even more so than Boy.
Martin is correct about narrowing the definition to the UK to make it coherent. If you include American or Australian (or German, or really anywhere but England) artists post-punk precedes punk. The Velvet Underground, the Stooges, MC5, early Bowie, Roxy Music, Brian Eno, Kraftwerk and the rest of the Krautrock artists, New York Dolls, Patti Smith, Television, Richard Hell, Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads, Pere Ubu, Devo, Dead Boys among others preceded both the Sex Pistols and any idea of "orthodox" or primitive punk. Punk of any variety started out arty, and some artists took it and made it simpler, more abrasive, more direct. The narrative is backwards. The only place it sort of fits is in the UK if you make sure to exclude the Bowie/Roxy/Eno category. Which I don't think any of the artists playing punk did, but it makes a coherent narrative of post-punk more plausible.
The Smiths and Siouxsie and the Banshees.
Top 5 best Punkrock bands.
1. Ramones
2. Sex Pistols
3. The Stooges
4. Damned
5. Misfits
Early The Cult could also qualify as Post Punk imho.
Not heard the term post-punk before. Back in the day, the bands mentioned on the show would have been considered new wave, indie or alternative. Based on what was described, I’m going with Adam & The Ants (Dirk era), Killing Joke & Echo & The Bunny Men but I might be wrong. Would The Ruts or The Pretenders be post punk?
What would you call The Smiths ? Perhaps too melodic for post-punk, but I never really liked the term jangle pop either personally.
I would like to mention The Sound and Cocteau Twins as well, two bands I love very much.
Cocteau Twins were on my longlist, before I decided to try the Glasgow School experiment (they're from Grangemouth, near Edinburgh).
The Smiths...I would say "Indie pop/rock" works best before Indie became far, far too overused.
I think the period was fertile because punk had sparked a wave of creativity across a provincial towns of the UK all of which were in a state of industrial decay rather grim and the kids latched onto all the new sounds coming out very early synthesizers and drum machines. The Cure were from Surrey and Siouxsie is from Kent. Joy Division the Fall Magazine and A Certain Ratio were my favorite Manchester bands My fave band from the Scottish scene was the Cocteau Twins.
That's a great way to put it, the creativity in the UK was incredible at the time!
Pere Ubu, Yes Martin!
Wouldn’t The Birthday Party be here? Pixies first 3 releases?
Oh great call on The Birthday Party. Yes!
@@JohntheMusicNut The problem is, if you include American and Australian artists, post-punk precedes punk, and it screws up the narrative. Pretty sure the Velvet Underground precedes everybody else, unless the Who and the Kinks were actually punk.
The Fall, The Chameleons & The Smiths are some of the best. The Chameleons are in my top 5 bands and are criminally underrated. Mark is a top guy, too. He really cares about his fans.
Top 3 post-punk bans? Tough question, but it would have to come from a squad of Wire, PIL, Killing Joke, The Fall, Gang of Four, The Pop Group. The Cure and the Banshees sort of go beyond post Punk. I've read shout outs for This Heat and Cabaret Voltaire, I'm a massive fan of both bands but they are something very different, sure punk had opened the door for them to do their thing but it's a bit limiting to say post-punk. PS: JAMC aren't post-punk, pic again Davy (although double marks for picking Josef K)
How can you not mention The Fall?
i knew we missed one!
they called talking heads,television etc new wave,used to have a late 70s comp called new wave,bands like talking heads,television,but also stuff from ramones,dead boys and if i remember the damned,so the more cerebral stuff was termed new wave,and the fast,distorted stuff punk
When the Ramones, Television, Talking Heads, and Dead Boys were all playing CBGBs it was all just punk. When the Velvet Underground, Stooges, New York Dolls, MC5 were all playing it, it didn't have a name yet.
Sort of an anomaly is Pete Ubu. A post-punk band before punk. In my opinion they were post- punk.
That's why you can't include American bands, it messes up the narrative. Pere Ubu, Devo, Television, Talking Heads, not to mention the Velvet Underground who were before everybody.
bill nelsons red noise
Public image, Stranglers, The Fall
Cabaret Voltaire and early Human League
Are XTC post punk or are they post new wave ?
Xtc totally post punk!
For me, Post-punk means post rock'n'roll. So I'm more in line with your host. Doing away with music rooted r'n'b and blues influenced rock (as well as the technically elitist Prog movement) and the values they promoted. I don't see why the term has to be limited to British-only bands. It's a revisionist category that makes sense in hindsight.
Siouxsie and the Banshees
The Smiths
New Order
What about Public Image Ltd ?
we actually did a whole episode on them!
Magazine, PIL, This Heat
Is Mission of Burma not post-punk?
I enjoyed being a part of this discussion. Thank you for having me on!
thanks for coming on 🙏
What a pleasure it was John, for you to be on with me. :)
@@DavysFlicks Thanks Davy. You sure you don't mean the other way around? :)
ultravox before midge ure
The reason I didn't mention them? I taped an ep the day after this with Peter Kerr on Rock Daydream Nation about Ultravox - we looked at Ha! Ha! Ha! from the Foxx era and Vienna from the Midge era. Should be up this weekend.
killing joke
I was glad to be able to talk about them in honourables!
@@DavysFlicks yes,i wrote that before i got to the end,lol interesting you mention the glasgow bands,the raincoat scene,i think it was dubbed.when i was a young rocker,my girlfriend at the time,got into glasgow art school,didnt see her for a month,and she turned up with short pink hair,and totally different dress sense,told me it was over,and that she was going out with some foppish indie /band bloke from the art college lol so i wasnt fond of that scene,though i saw edwyn collins years later,at a mind awareness gig,and thought he was really good.but killing joke,massively under rated band,a lot heavier than most metal bands oh and janglepop,hated that too lol primal scream were a janglepop band,before going more rock,if i remember
@@elbib2446 Yeah and Primal Scream had their big kinda dance music era too with Screamadelica.
There's a big art school scene here which feeds into the music. CHeers!
@@DavysFlicks yes i know,i lived in glasgow for a few years
the fall
XTC’s first 4 albums are definitely post punk.
Isn't everything that came after punk post punk lol.
Post punk?what's that? Post jazz? Post rock? Post heavy metal? Post hard-rock? Post blues?...🤔🤔🤔
haha all great episode suggestions 😛
@@thecontrarians2438 🤣👍
Theatre of hate ?
You guys need to distinguish between bands with a few cool songs and bands with critical acclaim for their entire career. The Comsat Angels have critical acclaim across their entire career and many LPs. Your failing to recognize this band says volumes about your aggregate wisdom of music knowledge of Post-Punk and beyond.
thanks for the feedback, the title is "favorite post punk bands" though not "best post punk bands"
Rip it Up and Start Again 👍👍👍Never Met a Girl Like You Before 👎👎👎
Might I suggest a Dark Horse album episode on the Stone Temple Pilots 2001 album Shangri La Dee Da. That’s an album that went largely ignored back then and barely went gold. I personally ignored the album due to the stupid name lol. But I’d be interested to hear you guys thoughts on it to the degree any of y’all listen to STP.
Nice suggestion. That is a dark horse album for sure. You never know. We may do it one day. :)