@@haydenwalton2766 We do understand what is being discussed here. There is absolutely no truth to it. The Bible has told us about people like carrier. Carrier is doing what Jesus said that he will do. And this clown is doing it exactly. There are more things that Jesus says that Carrier will do......and he will do them. He has no choice.
Only seeing this now (Oct 2023). I've seen Dr Carrier speaking on other channels but this by far the best interview with him. Justin asks excellent questions and then lets Dr Carrier elucidate without interruption. No annoying histrionics. Well done to all concerned.
On another channel (which shall go nameless), the host put down Dr. Carrier's work having been peer-reviewed. I don't think most people really understand this (although it is one of the most important aspects of the scientific method). "Peer" means equal. So Dr. Carrier, having a doctorate in history, gets his books reviewed by other historians (and probably historians of roughly the same subjects). But a christian apologist could get his work passed through a peer review process and it just means by other hard-core believers. Clearly not by people being skeptical unless the author is steeping outside the current dogma.
>ut a christian apologist could get his work passed through a peer review process and it just means by other hard-core believers. "Peer" doesn't mean "people who think the same way you do" but refers to a level of education, knowledge, and esteem. A dozen "degrees" from PhD mills does NOT confer any respectability on the apologist who spent a couple of thousand for inkjet "diplomas" issued from a trailer. The publications which publicize peer-reviewed research THEMSELVES are subject to the scrutiny of peers. Even *Nature* has been caught out.and forced to print retractions. And that'S ANOTHER sign of legitimacy. No matter how embarrassed they might be, REAL sources will pring public retractions and explain EXACTLY what happened, how and why, all in the interests of making sure that doesn't happen again.
48:43 aaah funny thing, Mark doesn't have anything about Jesus being born of a virgin. the text starts with Jesus' baptism. it's really hard to imagine the text in isolation, on its own, but that just goes to show how much we're influenced by gospel harmonization and how ingrained thinking of the gospels as one coherent unit really is. great content :) thanks for bringing dr. Carrier on
One could say, than, that Mark is an important pagan-like Hellenized Judian BAPTIST concerted text. Birth and childhood are ignored and things start at the Baptism.
Actually, in the original Hebrew bible, the word used is 'young woman', not the word for 'virgin'. However, the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible), had a translation error, and thus the Greek-writing Gospel writers, clearly used the Greek and not the Hebrew version of the bible when writing their works. ALSO, it shows that they weren't Hebrew speakers / readers / writers or if not they would have just used the original Hebrew as their source!
Dr Carrier studies and really stresses things that were very common in those times. What was going on, how they thought, what writings actually meant and why they were written in the first place, what myth structure in writing was in those times, etc... He really helps you understand what was MOST LIKELY from those times because he helps you understand the culture of those times and places in a major way. Most scholars don't do that the way he does. His expertise is literally on those life and times of those places
Meu nome é Maykon, sou brasileiro, e tenho todos os livros do Doutor Richard Carrier. Na minha opinião, ele foi o único a abordar, de forma séria, o estudo sobre o Jesus histórico. Concordo plenamente com a sua conclusão; que Jesus foi um ser celestial historicizado com o passar do anos. Todos os livros dele ( Richard Carrier ) são obras de arte, pois escreve bem, tem bons raciocínios, apresenta evidências e é muito honesto em suas conclusões. Faço historia também, mas seu livro sobre o "Teorema de Bayes" ajudou-me bastante a obter os fundamentos filtrados de forma crítica. Pesar na balança das probabilidades, todas as hipóteses possíveis dado a todo o conhecimento geral que obtemos. Sou seu fã Richard Carrier! Você me inspirou a obter mais conhecimento. Sucesso Meste Richard Carrier ! E viva ao Teorema de Bayes !
This is probably Carrier's best summary video. My interests include: ancient magical-religious tropes; critical analysis of magical ideas/claims/beliefs, etc.; institutionalized "mind over matter" claims in pop culture (mainly religion). Also recommend Robyn Faith Walsh for how magical ideas get written about, become pop culture, in ancient eras. How do bad ideas/lies (magical-religious) become pop culture, eg, life after death, mind over matter, etc?
A good question to ask is “Why?” -Why were people creating all these stories & trying to “sell” them? Why come up with the story of Jesus? Why tell the stories of Olympus, of Arthur or Aeneas? Odysseus? Why is there a Valhalla or a Mabinogion? What’s the point of the sacrificed Corn boy? Why mythologise the bison? Why ghost dance? Avoid simplistic answers.
If this is a serious point of inquiry for you, I refer you to a book, The Origins Of Consciousness In The Breakdown of The Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. You will find serious discussion in there.
@@donaldclifford5763 Thanks very much! I actually read that about 15 years ago. It's a good read! Maybe time to read it again. But it didn't then, & I'm doubtful it would now, answer my question. The question is more socratic than inquisitive.
@@donaldclifford5763 I should refine my reply because your suggestion is very valid. I would think the Jaynes book rather sets the stage, as it were. But what I'm asking is, what is the play? And what is its purpose?
I wish I understood, on a spiritual or theoretical level, why people stopped worshipping the sun. Its a god like presence from which all "things", both "good or bad" spring from. And, as far as we know there is no life anywhere else in the universe, thus our "god" is the one true creator. I dont believe any of this, more proposing it as a thought experiment as to why we give such importance to mythical beings in the form of man instead of a true celestial bringer of life like the sun.
We abstract human cultural forms (consider why "Trinity"? If the answer is "family unit" then you've grasped the basic insight). We reify these abstractions. Religion as "self-Objectification". See Feuerbach. Then Freud (and Marx). That's it you are looking for grounding in the psychological "why religion?". There's an old joke. Missionary goes to the New World. Meets Tribal Chieftain. Says "but you worship the Sun!" Tribal Leader says "Dude. The Sun is real!"
We probably stopped worshiping the sun when we started to understand it better. It sort of makes sense from an ignorant stand point to fear and worship the giant burning sky light that let's you see. Less reasonable for us to worship a spinning mass of gas undergoing nuclear fusion so many millions of miles away, we now know that worship/fear makes no difference to the sun.
There are still people who worship a sun god/goddess in several current polytheistic religions. In Hinduism the sun god is Surya. There's also the goddess Dǒumǔ in Chinese religion, also worshipped in Taoism, and the goddess Amaterasu in Shintoism.
I'm about halfway through the historicity of Jesus and really enjoying it! Can't wait to check out jesus from outer space, but on the historicity is really the magnum opus of Dr. Carriers work.
I guess I got lucky in my upbringing - it just never occurred to me to base my notions of what's right and what's wrong and how I should behave in the world on anything OTHER than my own deep thinking. It's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling comfortable doing it any other way.
Exactly the way I think too. Yet, I have been lectured by Christians more times than I can count, that there's no possible way I can know the difference between right and wrong unless I learned it in the Bible or from Christians. I've been told that it's not possible for me to be moral without God, because morals come from God. Along with that, when I quiz them a little deeper on their thinking, they confirm their belief that I will burn in hell for my lack of acceptance of Jesus or God in general. I find it odd that these people who judge me, are the people that have had drug/alcohol issues, financial problems due to lack of self control, or recently, one had a domestic violence event and his wife has now left him. Funny that I avoid all those problems that these so called moral people get themselves into. Somehow, these observations don't register in their brains.
The Jesus myth is pretty much just Dionysus with some added Judean influence. Much like the large syncretism between Gods and regions. Read the Bacchae by Euripides and then the Gospel of John, it's pretty much the same basic story. A son of the highest God (Zeus in Greek is also called "The God" as is Dionysus) and a mortal woman, who takes on a human form and comes down to earth. Both to regions of their families and kin which reject them and who they claim to be. Both arrive and have female followers. Both are of the Vine and have Wine and bread/meat as their blood and body and if you drink and eat it, you shall attain eternal life and revel. Both have water change to Wine in scenarios to do with them. Both meet a blind person. And the many female characters have parallels. Both give themselves up to be captured by rulers and do not answer questions when interrogated, except to only mention their fathers. Both die and are then resurrected.
Keep in mind that when Boltzmann proposed his molecular-based model and the laws of statistical mechanics in the late 1800's, his community of peers pretty much totally ignored him. It was only after his death (at his own hand) and after undeniable work by Einstein and others that people recognized that Boltzmann had been absolutely right and had in fact made a major contribution to science. So - while peer review is the best thing we have and absolutely should be one's starting point, it is not infallible. Ultimately it is just a "majority rule" type situation, and as such can go wrong. One thing you could in this context is that rejection by peer review is much more likely to be "correct" if the idea at hand has been around for a long time - it tends to be major breakthroughs that get ignored "for a while." If an idea has been around for ages and is still peer-rejected, then it's likely a bad idea.
Wonderful interview. The most endangered species is the honest man, who will still survive annihilation. forming a world state of integrity, sensitive, open and strong. Quote from Neil Peart. Thank you, gentlemen, for a great and informative discussion.
Hola, soy de Colombia y soy un apasionado por este tema y por los libros de Richard. Lamentablemente, estos libros no aparecen aún en español y los estamos esperando con ansias. ¿Podrías preguntarle a Richard si está pensando traducir sus libros al español? ¿Serviría decir que esta es la segunda lengua más hablada en el mundo? ;) Gracias por tu programa y ojalá puedas transmitirle esta inquietud. Saludos.
One's position on Historicity is political and economic. Bart has made millions with his ideas, other mythicists have pulled away for fear of loss of prestige and income.
Zeitgeist was a personal project made by a student that got leaked online and went viral, it was never meant to be a documentary, it sparks my curiosity anyway and eventually led me to Dr. Carrier so you don't have to hate it lol.
Ha I agree, they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It never claimed to be religious scholar level work. It's meant to get people thinking. And it succeeds.
I've read 'Jesus from Outer Space' and there are indeed reasons to doubt, but I would still like to know who the "Peers" were who reviewed his work and what they actually said.
I am married to a PhD professor and I too have a terminal masters degree. I will just say that every part of the explanation given of what peer review is and how it works is exactly correct. Consequently, I'd like to ask what you mean when you write "Peers".
Having a peer reviewed study is pretty useless if this same peer reviewed study is ignored or rejected by all your peers. Science is by expert consensus.
Passing peer review is an important milestone even if the material isn't immediately accepted by expert consensus. It means that the work was done properly, the arguments are sound, etc. Peer review establishes a standard and Carrier's work meets that standard. Of course, take one of the bible colleges as an example. A professor in one of those institutions would have to agree to a "testament of faith" or some similar document that forbids him from having certain beliefs, such as the resurrection being a myth. This professor could write a book about how the resurrection happened and get it "peer reviewed" by peers in his university. On the surface this looks no different than what Dr. Carrier has done. But there are some important differences. Most important is that the religious professor is NOT free to go where the evidence leads, if it contradicts his testament of faith. Not being able to follow the evidence immediately undermines any really scholarly value in the work. It's a lowering of standards. Related point - The current "consensus" includes MANY "scholars" who come from these kind of religious institutions. At the moment, if we filter them out, there is still a majority of real scholars who do not accept Dr. Carrier's conclusions. This is true. But it neither makes Dr. Carrier right or wrong. It's simply a consensus opinion. The consensus could be wrong. In real scientific endeavors it is normal for the consensus to be wrong. Then someone comes along with a more accurate solution to a problem and the consensus recognizes this and adjusts. It can sometimes take time. We'll see if the consensus regarding Dr. Carrier changes. But we're talking about time. It could be a generation before we see the full effect of his work.
Mythicism doesn't think outside the box. It thinks inside the box, putting the legend of Christ into the milieu of the religious cultures of the Levant and eastern Mediterranean region, of that era.
I have watched the Zeitgeist movie. It basically says exactly what y'all are saying here. That the Christian story isn't special. What exactly about the movie is misleading? Im confused.
Great stream. Thanks Justin. It is such a shame to me that Dr Carrier's work has, what seems to me, a "this guy is nuts!" following. An "Anti Carrier" ethic, if you will. I cannot see, for the life of me, why people from whatever worldview cannot at least grant that he makes a lot of good points. Maybe they are closet agnostics who are secretly scared of hell (can't think of the sit on the fence dying fire insurance at the moment). But thanks to you both.
Please can someone explain this to me? I've heard DR Carrier mention euhemeriism many times in the context of a mythical God/Jesus being humanised and given an earthly story... BUT, Google explains euhemerism as the exact opposite, an earthly, human figure being exalted into mythology! ???????? Which is it, please?
Nothing is for free. Cough up a few bucks a month and get TH-cam Prime. The number of commercials has absolutely nothing to do with the show's content.
You're gonna get that everywhere man if you don't have a premium membership. We don't do all this just to demonetize/blacklist our own stuff. We want people to see it, that's why we're here. TH-cam has no incentive to show people a demonetized video, and frankly, neither do creators in general.
Thanks BulletHoles!! I really appreciate your response, and yes on the 40 years, but whenever any of them were written, would they not represent something that would get a person in trouble if found to be the author in those days, the highly volatile first century? I very much appreciate your response! Thanks@@BulletHolesintheBible
"personal saviors were all the rage when Christianity started. There were already a bunch of these guys". If true, that would make sense as the anticipation prior to Mashiach's first coming would have been high from ppl knowing the prophecies of Mashiach in the OT and understanding the times they were living in and what prophecies were fulfilled and what next ones were soon to be fulfilled and seems quite believable that Satan and his followers would want to make up different saviors to try to convince ppl when the real Yahshua came he would be just another one of those fictional saviors.
Fascinating! I would love to hear what you and your guest have to say to refute the existence of "the nemesis of Jesus, satan", since he also, if he exists, appears to have a considerable following!
Ah, so you have seen Zeitgeist😉. It definitely hasnt aged perfectly well, but at the time it was my introduction to a lot of these ideas. Great interview, i had seen lots of Ehrman's work but I wasnt familiar with Dr. Carrier, great to get his perspective and definitely going to check out his stuff.
This atheist family of parents of 3 kids and a grandson. We celebrate happy zombie Jesus day!😂 My husband is a retired marine. I met him before the marine corps and I still here! It wasn’t easy as a radical feminist but we’re still going strong 30 years! I’m enjoying your channel!❤
You must be joking, Derek has no formal credentials, is rather childish/juvenile, prone to vagueness exaggeration and dishonesty..When called out on such he doesn't respond much like his buddy Gnostic who attacked Dr.Carrier in a cheap hype piece loaded with errors.
Bonjour de la France, long hair ! I've never been a religious practitioner even if I've been baptised ... 60 yrs ago (!), and at the time as a baby, they DID NOT ask me if I was ok with that ! Today I'm a convinced Celtic Pagan, Nature, Trees, Rivers, Mountains ... ! Anyways, the more I ponder on that D'Jezeuss dude, the more I think he's a complete scripted fake character, whatever the theory is ! Of course there are lots of theories about him, like for example the one of the Flavian dinasty (Vespasian, Titus), who would have manufactured this story during their bloody harch war in Judea, creating this fake D'Jezeuss character as a peaceful symbol for distraction to submit the Jews ... I don't know ? who knows ? Too much shadows on this D'Jezeuss dude ! A Kelt from Gaul, Rock the Universe !!
Kip Davis is indulging in name calling now. Is that from his Christian upbringing? Gnostic Informant, Neal, derogatorily accuses Richard and his cohort of being gay, a terrible crime against humanity if true. The dark comedy continues
Maybe easier to defend that jesus started out as a revelation from an angel if allow for this angel to have died on earth some vague time ago. There is probably no need to insist that the death happened in outer space.
@Jacob B it is mainly some verses in the letters of paul that cause some difficulties for the idea that jesus died in outer space. They are the main reason why expert consensus reject the idea that jesus died in outer space. The reality of expert consensus cannot be just wished away. The verses mentioning the brothers of jesus also cause difficulties. My guess is the brothers of jesus are just followers bec Paul does not seem to know much details about the life of jesus even after talking to the so called brothers of jesus. It is also possible the brothers of jesus are scammers claiming to be the real brothers of jesus (bec they did believe that jesus died on earth and might have some real brothers on earth).
@@colonyofcellsiamamachine6175 There is an interpolation in 1 Thessalonians 2, but that's it. In any case, Carrier also includes the possibility that the first believers in a celestial Jesus could have thought that the descent was to, and crucifixion took place in, some far flung place on Earth.
@entwood agree, Carrier's meaning of space refers to "the heavens" in Biblical language that's the only reason he discusses it. It's meant to be provocative but technically he's right.
@@BulletHolesintheBible Maybe the "heavens" is representative of the head, the highest place. I know not many people go for this, but I was reading earlier that the 'kundalini life force' when raised up to the crown exits through the fontanel at the top of the skull. Looking at a view of the top of the skull, the sutures are in a cross shape and the fontanel is at the center. Reminds me of the cross with the circle around where the horizontal and vertical lines intersect. I know a lot of people balk at the syncretism of the crucifixion, resurrection and Christ with the cerebrospinal fluid and Kundalini but I think there are a lot of interesting parallels.
These two gentlemen are a product of Christianity, its been ingrained in them from being raised in a Christian society. They should be grateful and see the positive impact it had on their lives.
@@grahamblack1961 Christendom is the not the real church. Because the sum of believers are the church. Christendom is the pagan religion of Rome impersonating the church in the world. Christendom's teachings do not conform with tje teaching of the apostles, who are the foundation on which the church is to be built. So, studying Christendom is not studying the church, the body of Christ. It is the study of another entity and another Christ.
"@eternalgospels".....heluva case of cognitive dissonance you got there. Schitzo-typal disorders are a bitch, ask your self induced alter ego created by bs in bibles.
@@grahamblack1961 Carrier is a very poor historian. Either he is a deceiver or has no clue of real HISTORICAL facts. Example Carrier asks why there is no records of Jesus in the first half of the first century, What he hides from his listeners is that THERE ARE NO RECORDS FROM THE FIRST HALF OF THE FIRST CENTURY BECAUSE ALL RECORD DEPOSITORIES INCLUDING BOTH ROME AND JERUSALEM RECORDS WERE ALL DESTROYED. HUMMM EVEN A FIRST YEAR ANCIENT HISTORY STUDENT KNOWS THIS. CARRIER IS A PHONY.
Dr Richard Carrier's work will gain in importance more and more as the years go on.
I agree 👍
oh yes
Definitely.
imagine a world where all christians understood what is being discussed here
@@haydenwalton2766 We do understand what is being discussed here. There is absolutely no truth to it. The Bible has told us about people like carrier. Carrier is doing what Jesus said that he will do. And this clown is doing it exactly. There are more things that Jesus says that Carrier will do......and he will do them. He has no choice.
Only seeing this now (Oct 2023). I've seen Dr Carrier speaking on other channels but this by far the best interview with him. Justin asks excellent questions and then lets Dr Carrier elucidate without interruption. No annoying histrionics. Well done to all concerned.
That was an amazing and enlightening video, Dr. Carrier has a down to earth way of speaking that I could listen to him all day.
"The heresy of yesterday becomes the orthodoxy of today."
Helen Keller 💙
On another channel (which shall go nameless), the host put down Dr. Carrier's work having been peer-reviewed. I don't think most people really understand this (although it is one of the most important aspects of the scientific method).
"Peer" means equal. So Dr. Carrier, having a doctorate in history, gets his books reviewed by other historians (and probably historians of roughly the same subjects). But a christian apologist could get his work passed through a peer review process and it just means by other hard-core believers. Clearly not by people being skeptical unless the author is steeping outside the current dogma.
>ut a christian apologist could get his work passed through a peer review process and it just means by other hard-core believers.
"Peer" doesn't mean "people who think the same way you do" but refers to a level of education, knowledge, and esteem. A dozen "degrees" from PhD mills does NOT confer any respectability on the apologist who spent a couple of thousand for inkjet "diplomas" issued from a trailer. The publications which publicize peer-reviewed research THEMSELVES are subject to the scrutiny of peers. Even *Nature* has been caught out.and forced to print retractions.
And that'S ANOTHER sign of legitimacy. No matter how embarrassed they might be, REAL sources will pring public retractions and explain EXACTLY what happened, how and why, all in the interests of making sure that doesn't happen again.
@@MWGrossmann I totally agree. That was the point I was trying to make but I think you said it better.
Excellent host. Thank you both; you guys are a breath of fresh air.
I really started watching a lot of videos on the beginnings of Christianity and for my 2 cents....Carrier is the best.
48:43 aaah funny thing, Mark doesn't have anything about Jesus being born of a virgin. the text starts with Jesus' baptism.
it's really hard to imagine the text in isolation, on its own, but that just goes to show how much we're influenced by gospel harmonization and how ingrained thinking of the gospels as one coherent unit really is.
great content :) thanks for bringing dr. Carrier on
One could say, than, that Mark is an important pagan-like Hellenized Judian BAPTIST concerted text. Birth and childhood are ignored and things start at the Baptism.
Actually, in the original Hebrew bible, the word used is 'young woman', not the word for 'virgin'. However, the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew bible), had a translation error, and thus the Greek-writing Gospel writers, clearly used the Greek and not the Hebrew version of the bible when writing their works. ALSO, it shows that they weren't Hebrew speakers / readers / writers or if not they would have just used the original Hebrew as their source!
You are excellent hosts; thank you both; you guys are a breath of fresh air.
Dr Carrier studies and really stresses things that were very common in those times. What was going on, how they thought, what writings actually meant and why they were written in the first place, what myth structure in writing was in those times, etc... He really helps you understand what was MOST LIKELY from those times because he helps you understand the culture of those times and places in a major way. Most scholars don't do that the way he does. His expertise is literally on those life and times of those places
I live under a tiny umbrella of ignorance. Thank both of you 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❤❤❤
Meu nome é Maykon, sou brasileiro, e tenho todos os livros do Doutor Richard Carrier. Na minha opinião, ele foi o único a abordar, de forma séria, o estudo sobre o Jesus histórico. Concordo plenamente com a sua conclusão; que Jesus foi um ser celestial historicizado com o passar do anos. Todos os livros dele ( Richard Carrier ) são obras de arte, pois escreve bem, tem bons raciocínios, apresenta evidências e é muito honesto em suas conclusões. Faço historia também, mas seu livro sobre o "Teorema de Bayes" ajudou-me bastante a obter os fundamentos filtrados de forma crítica. Pesar na balança das probabilidades, todas as hipóteses possíveis dado a todo o conhecimento geral que obtemos. Sou seu fã Richard Carrier! Você me inspirou a obter mais conhecimento. Sucesso Meste Richard Carrier ! E viva ao Teorema de Bayes !
This is probably Carrier's best summary video. My interests include: ancient magical-religious tropes; critical analysis of magical ideas/claims/beliefs, etc.; institutionalized "mind over matter" claims in pop culture (mainly religion). Also recommend Robyn Faith Walsh for how magical ideas get written about, become pop culture, in ancient eras. How do bad ideas/lies (magical-religious) become pop culture, eg, life after death, mind over matter, etc?
Wonderful interview! Great material.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Amazing conversation and I hope it helps many! 💗
I hope so too!
Great conversation!
Thanks guys. Damn good discussion. Enlightening, educational. Love it!! 😊
Impressive interview, one of the best I've seen with Carrier.
This was so fascinating Lee. Good! Thank you so much for this information I will be looking into Dr. Richard carriers work a bit more.
A good question to ask is “Why?” -Why were people creating all these stories & trying to “sell” them? Why come up with the story of Jesus? Why tell the stories of Olympus, of Arthur or Aeneas? Odysseus? Why is there a Valhalla or a Mabinogion? What’s the point of the sacrificed Corn boy? Why mythologise the bison? Why ghost dance? Avoid simplistic answers.
If this is a serious point of inquiry for you, I refer you to a book, The Origins Of Consciousness In The Breakdown of The Bicameral Mind, by Julian Jaynes. You will find serious discussion in there.
@@donaldclifford5763 Thanks very much! I actually read that about 15 years ago. It's a good read! Maybe time to read it again. But it didn't then, & I'm doubtful it would now, answer my question. The question is more socratic than inquisitive.
@@donaldclifford5763 I should refine my reply because your suggestion is very valid. I would think the Jaynes book rather sets the stage, as it were. But what I'm asking is, what is the play? And what is its purpose?
I wish I understood, on a spiritual or theoretical level, why people stopped worshipping the sun. Its a god like presence from which all "things", both "good or bad" spring from. And, as far as we know there is no life anywhere else in the universe, thus our "god" is the one true creator. I dont believe any of this, more proposing it as a thought experiment as to why we give such importance to mythical beings in the form of man instead of a true celestial bringer of life like the sun.
We abstract human cultural forms (consider why "Trinity"? If the answer is "family unit" then you've grasped the basic insight). We reify these abstractions. Religion as "self-Objectification".
See Feuerbach. Then Freud (and Marx). That's it you are looking for grounding in the psychological "why religion?".
There's an old joke. Missionary goes to the New World. Meets Tribal Chieftain. Says "but you worship the Sun!"
Tribal Leader says "Dude. The Sun is real!"
We probably stopped worshiping the sun when we started to understand it better. It sort of makes sense from an ignorant stand point to fear and worship the giant burning sky light that let's you see. Less reasonable for us to worship a spinning mass of gas undergoing nuclear fusion so many millions of miles away, we now know that worship/fear makes no difference to the sun.
There are still people who worship a sun god/goddess in several current polytheistic religions. In Hinduism the sun god is Surya. There's also the goddess Dǒumǔ in Chinese religion, also worshipped in Taoism, and the goddess Amaterasu in Shintoism.
@billps34 very cool, thank you.
I'm about halfway through the historicity of Jesus and really enjoying it! Can't wait to check out jesus from outer space, but on the historicity is really the magnum opus of Dr. Carriers work.
Very good conversation, hopefully a good ongoing relationship, interviews with Dr Carrier
I guess I got lucky in my upbringing - it just never occurred to me to base my notions of what's right and what's wrong and how I should behave in the world on anything OTHER than my own deep thinking. It's hard for me to imagine anyone feeling comfortable doing it any other way.
Exactly the way I think too. Yet, I have been lectured by Christians more times than I can count, that there's no possible way I can know the difference between right and wrong unless I learned it in the Bible or from Christians. I've been told that it's not possible for me to be moral without God, because morals come from God. Along with that, when I quiz them a little deeper on their thinking, they confirm their belief that I will burn in hell for my lack of acceptance of Jesus or God in general.
I find it odd that these people who judge me, are the people that have had drug/alcohol issues, financial problems due to lack of self control, or recently, one had a domestic violence event and his wife has now left him. Funny that I avoid all those problems that these so called moral people get themselves into. Somehow, these observations don't register in their brains.
I'm not sure that Dr Carrier is 100% correct in his conclusions but he makes great points and is always fun to listen to.
What? You do accept Jesus from outer space?
This is awesome!!! He should be on Lex Fridman...!
The Jesus myth is pretty much just Dionysus with some added Judean influence. Much like the large syncretism between Gods and regions. Read the Bacchae by Euripides and then the Gospel of John, it's pretty much the same basic story. A son of the highest God (Zeus in Greek is also called "The God" as is Dionysus) and a mortal woman, who takes on a human form and comes down to earth. Both to regions of their families and kin which reject them and who they claim to be. Both arrive and have female followers. Both are of the Vine and have Wine and bread/meat as their blood and body and if you drink and eat it, you shall attain eternal life and revel. Both have water change to Wine in scenarios to do with them. Both meet a blind person. And the many female characters have parallels. Both give themselves up to be captured by rulers and do not answer questions when interrogated, except to only mention their fathers. Both die and are then resurrected.
Keep in mind that when Boltzmann proposed his molecular-based model and the laws of statistical mechanics in the late 1800's, his community of peers pretty much totally ignored him. It was only after his death (at his own hand) and after undeniable work by Einstein and others that people recognized that Boltzmann had been absolutely right and had in fact made a major contribution to science. So - while peer review is the best thing we have and absolutely should be one's starting point, it is not infallible. Ultimately it is just a "majority rule" type situation, and as such can go wrong.
One thing you could in this context is that rejection by peer review is much more likely to be "correct" if the idea at hand has been around for a long time - it tends to be major breakthroughs that get ignored "for a while." If an idea has been around for ages and is still peer-rejected, then it's likely a bad idea.
Just found your channel, probably the best interview of Carrier ever!...you ask all the questions I would. 👍
Love this
Thanks
No problem 🙌
Wonderful interview. The most endangered species is the honest man, who will still survive annihilation. forming a world state of integrity, sensitive, open and strong. Quote from Neil Peart. Thank you, gentlemen, for a great and informative discussion.
Hola, soy de Colombia y soy un apasionado por este tema y por los libros de Richard. Lamentablemente, estos libros no aparecen aún en español y los estamos esperando con ansias. ¿Podrías preguntarle a Richard si está pensando traducir sus libros al español? ¿Serviría decir que esta es la segunda lengua más hablada en el mundo? ;) Gracias por tu programa y ojalá puedas transmitirle esta inquietud. Saludos.
No puedo acordarme de cuando fue la entrevista pero dijo que su meta actual es traducir sus libros en español entonces ojalá suceda pronto
One's position on Historicity is political and economic. Bart has made millions with his ideas, other mythicists have pulled away for fear of loss of prestige and income.
This is important, because many people have followed this belief to war, but who was writing the books, is it Jewish folklore or Roman plagiarism?
@@harlzberg6068 written in greek by greeks.
Great, wide ranging talk.
Zeitgeist was a personal project made by a student that got leaked online and went viral, it was never meant to be a documentary, it sparks my curiosity anyway and eventually led me to Dr. Carrier so you don't have to hate it lol.
Ha I agree, they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It never claimed to be religious scholar level work. It's meant to get people thinking. And it succeeds.
I've read 'Jesus from Outer Space' and there are indeed reasons to doubt, but I would still like to know who the "Peers" were who reviewed his work and what they actually said.
I am married to a PhD professor and I too have a terminal masters degree. I will just say that every part of the explanation given of what peer review is and how it works is exactly correct. Consequently, I'd like to ask what you mean when you write "Peers".
@@totonow6955
The peers who reviewed his work.
peer review is supposed to be done in a blinded process - so the person being reviewed doesn't know who does the reviewing.
@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885
Ok, thanks.
I hope next time you guys can talk more about catholic church and their "fingers in the pie" with development of christianity.
Carrier’s work is a good strong cup of coffee. Just don’t forget you need food, too
Having a peer reviewed study is pretty useless if this same peer reviewed study is ignored or rejected by all your peers. Science is by expert consensus.
@Jacob B science is not based on the consensus of everybody but only on expert consensus.
History is not a science. None of the social sciences are.
Passing peer review is an important milestone even if the material isn't immediately accepted by expert consensus. It means that the work was done properly, the arguments are sound, etc. Peer review establishes a standard and Carrier's work meets that standard.
Of course, take one of the bible colleges as an example. A professor in one of those institutions would have to agree to a "testament of faith" or some similar document that forbids him from having certain beliefs, such as the resurrection being a myth. This professor could write a book about how the resurrection happened and get it "peer reviewed" by peers in his university. On the surface this looks no different than what Dr. Carrier has done.
But there are some important differences. Most important is that the religious professor is NOT free to go where the evidence leads, if it contradicts his testament of faith. Not being able to follow the evidence immediately undermines any really scholarly value in the work. It's a lowering of standards.
Related point - The current "consensus" includes MANY "scholars" who come from these kind of religious institutions. At the moment, if we filter them out, there is still a majority of real scholars who do not accept Dr. Carrier's conclusions. This is true. But it neither makes Dr. Carrier right or wrong. It's simply a consensus opinion. The consensus could be wrong. In real scientific endeavors it is normal for the consensus to be wrong. Then someone comes along with a more accurate solution to a problem and the consensus recognizes this and adjusts. It can sometimes take time. We'll see if the consensus regarding Dr. Carrier changes. But we're talking about time. It could be a generation before we see the full effect of his work.
@@pirbird14
More correctly , Historiography not History.?.which does assist anthropology and archaeology through scientific method.
The peer review process is an important vetting tool for works affirming the consensus & those that challenge it.
Love ur channel 👍 hopefully u can bring Dr Robert Price on. Although a mythicist, he varies with Dr Carrier on key features.
Did you see Carrier's recent debate with that Hebrew Israelite guy Grla Hebrew?
Mythicism doesn't think outside the box. It thinks inside the box, putting the legend of Christ into the milieu of the religious cultures of the Levant and eastern Mediterranean region, of that era.
I have watched the Zeitgeist movie. It basically says exactly what y'all are saying here. That the Christian story isn't special. What exactly about the movie is misleading? Im confused.
On Osiris and Jesus read "Christ in Egypt" by D.M. Murdock - that was her real academic tome! thanks
Great stream. Thanks Justin. It is such a shame to me that Dr Carrier's work has, what seems to me, a "this guy is nuts!" following. An "Anti Carrier" ethic, if you will. I cannot see, for the life of me, why people from whatever worldview cannot at least grant that he makes a lot of good points. Maybe they are closet agnostics who are secretly scared of hell (can't think of the sit on the fence dying fire insurance at the moment). But thanks to you both.
Subbed 👍
Welcome aboard 🙌 and thank you
Please can someone explain this to me? I've heard DR Carrier mention euhemeriism many times in the context of a mythical God/Jesus being humanised and given an earthly story... BUT, Google explains euhemerism as the exact opposite, an earthly, human figure being exalted into mythology! ???????? Which is it, please?
I've only had this explained to me by Dr. Carrier I'll have to look into this thank you
Interesting discussion but the number of advertisements is totally distracting!
Nothing is for free. Cough up a few bucks a month and get TH-cam Prime.
The number of commercials has absolutely nothing to do with the show's content.
You're gonna get that everywhere man if you don't have a premium membership. We don't do all this just to demonetize/blacklist our own stuff. We want people to see it, that's why we're here. TH-cam has no incentive to show people a demonetized video, and frankly, neither do creators in general.
Great discussion. Intersting that Richard didn’t deconstruct the myth of Obama yet, though… 🤔
What if the Gospels were not named because the authors were in fear of persecution and sedition laws? Why is it nobody ever mentions that point?
They were written 40 years after Jesus at the earliest
Thanks BulletHoles!! I really appreciate your response, and yes on the 40 years, but whenever any of them were written, would they not represent something that would get a person in trouble if found to be the author in those days, the highly volatile first century? I very much appreciate your response! Thanks@@BulletHolesintheBible
"personal saviors were all the rage when Christianity started. There were already a bunch of these guys". If true, that would make sense as the anticipation prior to Mashiach's first coming would have been high from ppl knowing the prophecies of Mashiach in the OT and understanding the times they were living in and what prophecies were fulfilled and what next ones were soon to be fulfilled and seems quite believable that Satan and his followers would want to make up different saviors to try to convince ppl when the real Yahshua came he would be just another one of those fictional saviors.
Fascinating! I would love to hear what you and your guest have to say to refute the existence of "the nemesis of Jesus, satan", since he also, if he exists, appears to have a considerable following!
Maybe a representation of the left hand path, while Jesus is the right hand path?
Ah, so you have seen Zeitgeist😉. It definitely hasnt aged perfectly well, but at the time it was my introduction to a lot of these ideas. Great interview, i had seen lots of Ehrman's work but I wasnt familiar with Dr. Carrier, great to get his perspective and definitely going to check out his stuff.
This atheist family of parents of 3 kids and a grandson. We celebrate happy zombie Jesus day!😂
My husband is a retired marine. I met him before the marine corps and I still here! It wasn’t easy as a radical feminist but we’re still going strong 30 years! I’m enjoying your channel!❤
how do you know what they wrote down in the gospels is true in the first place
I get an duo ad block about every 6.5 minutes, unwatchable
I think this should be moved to the end of the playlist
Like commented and subscribed 👍
I'm a professor 😂,of faith by my actions in unconditional love 💯
The title of this video sounds like a David Bowie song.
Amazing interview. Dr. Carrier is very knowledgeable. You should interview Derek from Mythvision.
You must be joking, Derek has no formal credentials, is rather childish/juvenile, prone to vagueness exaggeration and dishonesty..When called out on such he doesn't respond much like his buddy Gnostic who attacked Dr.Carrier in a cheap hype piece loaded with errors.
Bonjour de la France, long hair !
I've never been a religious practitioner even if I've been baptised ... 60 yrs ago (!), and at the time as a baby, they DID NOT ask me if I was ok with that ! Today I'm a convinced Celtic Pagan, Nature, Trees, Rivers, Mountains ... !
Anyways, the more I ponder on that D'Jezeuss dude, the more I think he's a complete scripted fake character, whatever the theory is !
Of course there are lots of theories about him, like for example the one of the Flavian dinasty (Vespasian, Titus), who would have manufactured this story during their bloody harch war in Judea, creating this fake D'Jezeuss character as a peaceful symbol for distraction to submit the Jews ...
I don't know ? who knows ? Too much shadows on this D'Jezeuss dude !
A Kelt from Gaul,
Rock the Universe !!
Thank you! Very great input!!
they found the tomb of osiris a few years ago
I wonder if Dr. Carrier would be interested in being "Spiritual, not religious"
@@rickmarshall5419 He was a Taoist when he was younger.
two ads in 5 minutes? nope unlike button
Kip Davis is indulging in name calling now. Is that from his Christian upbringing? Gnostic Informant, Neal, derogatorily accuses Richard and his cohort of being gay, a terrible crime against humanity if true. The dark comedy continues
❤🎉
What about Isaiah 53 ? predicting Jesus in the Old Testament.
That's a good question
Maybe easier to defend that jesus started out as a revelation from an angel if allow for this angel to have died on earth some vague time ago. There is probably no need to insist that the death happened in outer space.
@Jacob B many verses in the letters of paul do suggest that the death happened on earth.
@Jacob B it is mainly some verses in the letters of paul that cause some difficulties for the idea that jesus died in outer space. They are the main reason why expert consensus reject the idea that jesus died in outer space. The reality of expert consensus cannot be just wished away. The verses mentioning the brothers of jesus also cause difficulties. My guess is the brothers of jesus are just followers bec Paul does not seem to know much details about the life of jesus even after talking to the so called brothers of jesus. It is also possible the brothers of jesus are scammers claiming to be the real brothers of jesus (bec they did believe that jesus died on earth and might have some real brothers on earth).
@@colonyofcellsiamamachine6175 There is an interpolation in 1 Thessalonians 2, but that's it. In any case, Carrier also includes the possibility that the first believers in a celestial Jesus could have thought that the descent was to, and crucifixion took place in, some far flung place on Earth.
@entwood agree, Carrier's meaning of space refers to "the heavens" in Biblical language that's the only reason he discusses it. It's meant to be provocative but technically he's right.
@@BulletHolesintheBible Maybe the "heavens" is representative of the head, the highest place. I know not many people go for this, but I was reading earlier that the 'kundalini life force' when raised up to the crown exits through the fontanel at the top of the skull. Looking at a view of the top of the skull, the sutures are in a cross shape and the fontanel is at the center. Reminds me of the cross with the circle around where the horizontal and vertical lines intersect. I know a lot of people balk at the syncretism of the crucifixion, resurrection and Christ with the cerebrospinal fluid and Kundalini but I think there are a lot of interesting parallels.
Isaiah 53 comes from the Septuagint Greek mistranslation of the Hebrew Bible.
When you wake start reading Neville Goddard is baffle to science experts still imprision the mind.
These two gentlemen are a product of Christianity, its been ingrained in them from being raised in a Christian society. They should be grateful and see the positive impact it had on their lives.
And may I ask, what has been the impact on your life?
Checkout the big brain on Andy Dick
Is that a picture of Obama beside you? "Richard". Is "he" your mentor?
What does it mean when you write "Richard" and "him"?
The fact that he has a pic of Obama is troubling. Most divisive criminal president the US has ever had. His views here are good but thats a red flag
Jesus came from first haven ,he was with God and he was a human god, according to your Bible. He came to earth and died on the cross and went to Hell.
Richard "peer reviewed" Carrier.
(muhummudunism) halal = (judaism) *MUTAR*
(muhummudunism) haram = (judaism) *ASUR*
(not kosher).
they
Jesus is a fictional character.
Amen amen
Probably.
TWithoutherspoon
All of you are doing exactly what Jesus said that you will do. No different. Exactly.
@@alvindaughtry2168
Provide the single-best evidence you have that Jesus existed.
I think you've got the Catholic Jesus, the Jesus of Christendom Richard. Not the real one.
So who's the real one?
@@grahamblack1961
Christendom is the not the real church. Because the sum of believers are the church.
Christendom is the pagan religion of Rome impersonating the church in the world. Christendom's teachings do not conform with tje teaching of the apostles, who are the foundation on which the church is to be built. So, studying Christendom is not studying the church, the body of Christ. It is the study of another entity and another Christ.
Richard is the incarnation of fringeness!
Woiodnt be suprised if you were a dawkins drooling romantic saranist by now
?
What the?
Dude. Im sorry but you sre jhst over correcting way tio hard only just to hit the new athiest movement way way way too late
Perhaps you may find a few things that can be corrected in your own comment here.
Richard Carrier is the incarnation of EYE TWITCHING FRINGE IDEAS.
Can't agree with that at all. If his ideas were not well founded they wouldn't pass into critical scholarship.
@@BulletHolesintheBible 😂
"@eternalgospels".....heluva case of cognitive dissonance you got there. Schitzo-typal disorders are a bitch, ask your self induced alter ego created by bs in bibles.
Obama lover……. Discredited right there.
Have you heard the logical fallacy ad hominem?
@ have you heard of the swamp?
All friends of the big club
@@smallscreentv1204 What?
@ maybe they’re all into hotdogs?
@ Troll on
Carrier is a joke.. he is from outer space.
What an incisive rebuttal. You really debunked the 6 years of methodical research he did into the early days of christianity.
@@grahamblack1961 Carrier is a very poor historian. Either he is a deceiver or has no clue of real HISTORICAL facts. Example Carrier asks why there is no records of Jesus in the first half of the first century, What he hides from his listeners is that THERE ARE NO RECORDS FROM THE FIRST HALF OF THE FIRST CENTURY BECAUSE ALL RECORD DEPOSITORIES INCLUDING BOTH ROME AND JERUSALEM RECORDS WERE ALL DESTROYED. HUMMM EVEN A FIRST YEAR ANCIENT HISTORY STUDENT KNOWS THIS. CARRIER IS A PHONY.
@@grahamblack1961 HAHAHA THESE FAKE NEWS FOLKS REMOVED MY COMMENTS.....
@@grahamblack1961 THIESE GUYS REMOVED MY POST THAT CARRIER IS LYING.
@@grahamblack1961 CARRIER IS A FRAUD... WHEN WE POST EVIDENCE OF HIS DECEPTION WE ARE CANCELED