As with any one off job, much of the time is taken up coming with a plan, and then sleeping on it, only to throw out part of the plan, as one minor alteration, can throw the plan out at anytime, at which point you have nothing to show for all the time you've already invested.. it's just how it is...
My mind is asking how you are going to assemble the shaft and components with that step you are going to cut in the shaft for your new bushing idea. You can use your 1 piece bushing idea but you have to make it in the original thickness of the prototype bushing. Or mill out the cage to fit a thicker bushing.
@@JCMoncur I was just watching this and wondering how Squatch was going to get a 1.5" piece of shaft through a 1.3" bushing. But I wasn't going to put it past him achieving it.... Edit: Unless he splits the axle from the gearbox again to get enough clearance to move the shaft through enought to drop the clutch and spider in and then the shaft back... the refit axle to gearbox.
Never apologise for a theory video sir. The process of figuring a solution is a great time to learn. I think your solution is sound. No obvious disadvantages and it saves the proto pieces from needing to be altered. It’s a winner in my book.
This is absolutely fascinating video series. Many people do rebuilds of old production iron, which is interesting. However, restoring a prototype introduces such a complex set of problems. The prototype parts not quite being the same as production, limited parts lists, drawings, etc. This is great stuff. Very, very interesting and engaging content of mechanics, machining , problem solving, etc. Keep up the good work. Very good stuff here.
I believe your one piece bushing idea is very sound. Always better to be simple, it solves all the problems and doesn't bring any to the table. Don't worry that you're boring us, this is the stuff we came to see!! Yes, it's a challenge, but that's why you do it, to find the problems and solve them, and get smarter in the process, and enjoy it. Carry on, at whatever pace works for you.
the idea of a flanged bronze bushing popped into my noggin 6 min into this video, so you aren't alone in your thinking. and if I thought of it, you know it's a great idea.
Hi squash 253, this series has been very interesting and your ideas have been pretty much on the money. My thinking is the same as yours. Cheers and good luck Dave T.
I think that is a better plan than the 3 pieces, as long as the end thrust is minimal because as you already know the bearing surfaces are not exactly opposing each other. Maybe you could leave as big a radius as possible under the flange and make the flange a little thicker for strength. that's what I'm thinking just from observing. I'm sure you have already thought of this anyway. I've been a Machinist for over 40 years and am still learning. Every different situation or problem to solve makes me think a little bit further out of the box, I Love it. Keep up the good work, I enjoy watching your progress, when I'm not working on my own. TIM
I think your bushing idea is a fantastic one. I would still turn the shaft down. I agree, it's easier to do the bushing later, as it is the less expensive piece, however, it's easier to size an OD to an ID, and you can also check fit it. Your call, whatever you're more comfortable with. You seem to be a skilled enough machinist to make a very good part either which a way. Go for it!
My unprofessional and amateur opinion is go ahead with your new idea. One piece doing the job or three pieces. At the same time you are preserving the shaft as it was. Removing material from the shaft is a huge commitment. If for whatever reason it goes sour then it's a big job to weld it back up and machine back to spec. I think it would be so interesting to be able to watch a movie of what goes on in your mind when you're thinking and trying to figure our a new plan of action. lol Always enjoy your videos, keep up the good work.
Minneapolis Moline. Ugh. Had a major learning curve building their inline 4 in a 'skykitty'. Individual jugs. Mechanical fuel injection. Guess I was spoiled by flathead Continentals. Cool project you have - as was restoring that 'skykitty'!
Absolutely amazed at your thought process on making that a one piece part👌 I could follow your train of thought but could never have come up with that ingenious idea 🤔💪👍
Just thinking out loud here. I like your idea of making a full-length flanged bushing for your thrust bushing. But I also think you might be able to find a large enough flanged bushing and machine it to your specs. Unfortunately, you already have your Lump Of Bronze on the bench. You might also be able to find an Oil lite type bushing. There was a place called Reliable Bronze in Stanchfield near Rush Lake that just might have a blank that would be sufficient and maybe some more experienced input for you. An Oil lite bushing is already impregnated with oil & made with Sintered Bronze so it would be porous enough to wick oil through itself. This is what we were in trade school for.
All of your content is good, wholesome entertainment! Either route you choose is ok by me, but with 45 years of aerospace machining in me-I’ll cast my vote for the 3-in-1 carved out of a hundred dollar bill! Could I ask if you machine out an oil cavity that it be coated with Glyptal? Maybe Bork will be curse-less for a New York minute!
Great video along with details. Points of Interest, the Shaft can be consider the 1st point, referencing all items to work from its Dimensions. I think there are some specific specs to view, considering clearance's. The OD of shaft can be small giving good thick wall space of bushing, the length is in not worry. The ID of bushing can be set to a good clearance, but worried of some length, wall thickness of outer rim butting up to bearing. My first thought after speaking of a Trust Bushing was to build one complete Bronze Bushing. :)
I think that certainly minimizing the number of parts is best. Often we seem to be able to come up with a complicated solution but simplifying this is the more taxing process. I think you have been through this loop now and come up with a robust solution. Essentially shafts delivering power have four ways they can fail. There is torque load against the keys, splines and any pins or grub screws on shafts. There are end loads caused by gears trying to "screw" themselves apart or pull themselves together. There are side loads on the bearings or unsupported lengths of shafts, and the other failure is the shaft whipping under speed and load. This is all about the number of bearings and lengths of unsupported shaft versus shaft diameter. With all this pretty well pre designed there is not much you can do now other than be sure that your solution takes cognizance of the above. If its just going to be light loads on the show ground I am sure you will be fine.
I don't see how you can go wrong with a bigger, stronger, simpler bushing -especially in a place where it will realistically receive very little thrust. By the way, a big part of what I (and I think a lot of others here) enjoy about your channel is you explaining your thought processes and why you chose to do the things you do, and that you consider all the variables before you make a decision. :)
It marvels me the thought process you use to eliminate future problems. That is one of the reasons I enjoy watching your videos. Your solutions are genius. In one of my working career jobs I had the privilege of working for a business repairing and upkeep of the production tools. Wide variety of equipment used for manufacturing/production. Little did I know that was going to be a time consuming, designing, and the process was very challenging. All this was at a time when OSHA was on a push to make the work place safer. The rest of the story relates very well to how you do your restorations. Fix it right the first time and no more worries. I know it takes a long time to make a short video. More planning. Losing sleep. Keep up what you are doing. It is something I enjoy seeing what you are doing. Education for many to see.
Watching the build of X231 and seeing how you think your way through the different issues that come with rebuilding a tractor is fascinating. It makes you think how the engineeres thought their way through each step in designing and building X231 from a set of plans on paper to a operating tractor. You are following their mind set when you come up with the fixes to bring X231 back. I think the one piece bushing is the way to go. Great job so far with the build. Look forward to the next video.
I started watching your channel a couple of years ago because of this series, so I’m really glad to see you continuing on with it! I do understand the frustration with working on the prototype tho.. trying to envision the forces involved on the one-piece flanged thrust bushing, it seems like that will work fine, especially since the bevel gear is going to be pushing the whole cage away from that thrust surface. Lubrication is the unknown, like someone else already said.
You too? I've been waiting patiently for Toby to come back to this project. I have binge watched this series from the beginning at least 3 or 4 times while waiting for some progress. I have a feeling that a bunch of us are praying for a long winter so he will keep working on it. He said in a previous comment that he was waiting for good weather to start another project so I'm worried that he might be facing a year without a summer.
Hey Toby! I had a crazy vision of a way to press that one piece bushing into that hub involving a hollow ram press setup with the clutch assembly in the housing. I see that you ended up seeing the problem after you had already cut the shaft down. Don't let it get you down. for almost every mistake I have ever made on a project I have come up with a few crazy solutions and one of them worked. I wish I could show you what my brain is seeing. I am visualizing a threaded adapter to go on the end of the shaft to adapt a hollow ram to and a sleeve to push the bushing into the hub and a clip to hold the hub from being pushed forward against the clutch assembly. I know it's crazy, but if by some chance there is enough room to remove the stop clip from behind the clutch assembly it might just work.
I told you that my ideas are crazy. Sometimes you have to laugh. I still remember the time 2 of my friends were helping me pull a pump out of my well. 1 of them let go of the rope and the whole thing went back down the well. The poor guy was looking at me with fear in his eyes. I was laughing so hard at the time that he thought I had lost my mind. The end of the pipe was about 75 feet down and the rope was about 250 feet down. What he didn't know was before the pump hit bottom I already knew how I was going to get it. My wife was there when it happened and was convinced that we were going to have to call a well drilling company to get the pump out and another one back in. She was also convinced that I had lost my mind. When I told her not to worry and that it was just a minor setback, she almost lost her mind. By the time she calmed down the next morning, I was on the second recovery attempt and had the end of the pipe coming out of the well.
1-piece greatly simplifies what is going on once in place. Though as said this would basically be a trailer queen, if ever it did see use the 1-pc serving in place of the thrust washer would seem to live longer. Few bits to also fiddle with for prior assembly.
When solving a difficult problem it is good to get away from it and do something less intense like plowing snow. It appears you have the solution. You would have made a terrific engineer for MM or any company.
Looking forward to the next episode of X231. I'm certain you had good reasons but wondered why you didn't preassemble the clutch pack. That doesn't really matter tho. Like Carson, more to come!
One piece bronze with as many added oil grooves and ports that you can put in it. Got to be better than what was there before, cause the tractor ate it. Good idea, now go knock it out. I have faith it will work as planned.
I'll disagree on it being better on the outside looking in. Although I enjoy these kinds of problem analysis and solution episodes... it is precisely these type of challenges and ingenuity that makes this kind of work so intriguing. I wish I were there hands on with you on this one (I spent a good bit of my career as a product development engineer). Yep, solving them can be a pain, but the solution is very rewarding!! It's one of the reasons I come here. Paint, polish and throwing new parts at an old equipment is available ad nausem on TH-cam. Getting to know the innards and engineering of shit designed with slide rules is a treat. (edit: typo)
If I understand the full use of this the bushing will be under very little load radially except when things are engaged. The thrust should be minimal except when there is a load on the PTO. So lubrication is key. You want the shaft to spin free most of the time. The wear on the original bushing seems like it is likely related to the failure that cased the marks you were pointing out. The only time you would have significant load on the bushing with the PTO engaged the bushing should be rotating with the shaft so you shouldn't see that wear. I'm probably missing something with this as I can't really see from the videos enough detail to be sure. My sense is the design you are proposing, assuming a reasonable clearance for the bushing and adequate lubrication, will be sufficient even for doing a significant amount of work. For a parade queen, more than adequate. Looking forward to see how this works out.
“The idea poped in my head plowing snow”! I have not a dought in my mind that that your ideas gonna work, and probably pretty good at that! Keep up the good work man, love your videos!!
Can't begin to imagine the frustration on this, but don't give up on it. My wife and I love watching this, the problem solving and tool making etc. I'm in the trade and still love this. Don't give up on it. Look how far you have come.
Good for thought, that rear case repair where you had work done, what if you made t bushing and replaced existing bushing and would gain thrust bearing surface. Great stuff
I think the 1 piece, instead of 3 bushing is the way to go. I currently still us 3 MM power units, that you mentioned in the History episode for irrigation now.
I'm digesting the assembly and need to walk through what I see. The shell is free floating on the shaft. It is limited in axial movement by a thrust washer against the case on one end and a thrust washer against the hub on the other. The adjustment on the hub via the set screw and nut will control gear backlash and end play of the shell. That's how I'm reading this. I concur that the thrust load on the shell is minimal and driven mostly by the bevel gear. I would agree that the flat surface area in the case is marginal at best for a repeat thrust washer. In looking at your sketch are you planning on turning the shaft down to the same OD as the ID of the tapered bearing? If you do that then the bushing will become part of the shaft pre-load and I don't see how the bushing can freewheel on the shaft. I'm going to assume you are leaving a shoulder/ step on the shaft so the tapered bearing is up against the same shoulder, then a diameter change for the new bushing? The bushing pressed in the shell will have some float on the shaft and the limit will be the back side of the race instead of the casting. Your sketches are easy to follow and rather clear, that's my reason for comment. I'm a gearhead, enjoy your videos, it's a mechanics mini-series.
To argue a bit about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, and to understand your aesthetic: You are going to make a piece that doesn't exist in either production or in the prototype to solve a problem here, and I am not sure how that is better than resorting to production parts to make a working tractor. Cheers, i always admire your skills .
I like the one piece bushing idea. you could make a spot facing tool. It would be steel piloted through the bore. A single piece of high-speed steel as a tool bit, and then a crowd nut and a cross bar handle. Just a hand crank powered tool to increase the width trust face. I am a machinist I can explain more if you want more details
Oh please don't get burned out. Take some time off. We'll wait. Your mechanical skills are so well above the curve. It is my pleasure to just watch you.
My wife says biting is a love language and Christine certainly is a fickle, demanding gal to love! I love the series and applaud all the hard love it takes to not just lipstick it for show but document, preserve, and truly restore this rare machine!
I think it's a great idea for the 1-piece bushing, especially for a show queen! I love this tractor series more than any others I have seen period. It has sent me in directions I hadn't thought of going. Your detailed descriptions, analogies and telling us you thought prosses throughout the whole series I have found vary useful, so thank you for that! I know this tractor has caused you a lot of stress, but I have to say it has been highly beneficial. Keep plowing through and I'll keep watching. Tack care!
I woul make a flanged bushing and use one of the purchased bushings. The depth of a single bushing is probably much larger than needed. It will be easier to install two shallow bushings rather than a single long bushing.
Squirrel! I so understand this! I alway keep a pad and paper near me to write notes when I wake up with a brilliant idea to solve a nagging problem. I love your idea for the bushing. Now I see some shiny baubles that need my attention.. See ya!
Your idea is a mechanics wish in simplicity and an engineers worst nightmare of not being over engineered! The 50s was the decade when tractor companies went leaps and inbounds in design and horsepower. Each company had a niche the other ones copied or improved on! Thanks for sharing! Best of luck getting it altogether.
By eliminating thin walled bushings, they will not collapse again. Win. Reducing the 2 thin wall bushings to the one thick walled bushing is also a win. Adding the thrust bushing into the thick walled bushing is a won again. Oil grooves, oil catch point(s), and holes connecting will improve lubrication that it never had prior is a win again. If you're still concerned with lubrication to it, maybe a scavenge pump and tube leading directly to this bushing and spraying it with the oil is an idea. You should be able to add one somewhere in the case, easy enough; if it would even be needed. You have reduced and consolidated multiple problems into one piece, and it itself is a hand-made prototype piece. Sounds fitting to this prototype tractor to me. Go for it, brother. It's all wins in my book.
You have options.. 1. How close are the proposed tolerances to going with a needle bearing instead of bushings? 2. Going ahead with the bushings resize plus oil slotting the bushings. 3. Doing nothing new and Leaving the pto engaged all the time (with added guard at back). 3a. Modifying and still leave pto engaged. 4. Have no pto clutch inside, but have the appearance of pto on the outside. Now to finish the video and eat my words😂.
Well, didn't have to eat words after finishing the video. Thought of another idea. Front of drum a new sized bushing as shown at the beginning, slotted etc. Back of the drum a tapered bearing and cone, reversed direction to the live shaft cup and cone that already exist. ? Lots of measuring to do. Do you want to dyno the tractor ever? Then the pto and pulley need to be slightly robust. You'll strike a thinker pose for awhile.
Just searched needle bearing on McMaster Carr for my snow blower and some interesting things came up that might work, such as a combo thrust and radial bearing. Neat
Keep doing what you are doing, prototype or not I learn more each episode, it don't matter what color it is I find it quite interesting and entertaining. You do good work and I enjoy watching you !
Good plan. IMO its going to work better than the prototype or even the production one and likely would be able to reliably "work for a living" if it had to, which it won't, as it will be a garage queen.
Isn't the original point of youtube for viewers to be entertained by others pain and suffering? 😂😅😂 Just kidding! I was watching some of the early Feb videos, you have made some killer progress on X231 this year.
What a BIG Freakin Watch!!!! Now I really get you Toby. Transporting yourself back to the 50's in tractor development. Very brave and I'm jealous. What will end up biting you later on is usually some crazy person / operator later on with a big foot .... but that's you or Sr so you should be ok. Good luck and thanks for posting.
One of the things I really appreciate here is the thorough forensics regarding breakdowns and failures. Good stuff. Thanks. As for the thrust bearing design discussed at the end, I'm going to vote with whatever your decide. Cowardly, yes. But realistic too. Can't wait to see what does get implemented in the end.
The single piece bushing is a great idea. Fewer parts to break...simpler is always better. The single part will be more robust than the original 3 parts. Keep up the great work!!!!
I think your bushing work around is the way to go, $100 bushing is nothing compared to the total of the whole job and trying to preserve a working machine. Thinking on this tractor, I personally would not have the patience, to combat prototype V production differences. Your commitment to this old beast is worthy of praise.🛠
Super good idea on engineering . I just love this tractor rebuild and was lost when it ended before . Not stuck on M M's but love you walking us through the engineering and how the tractor was built , keep up the good work!
Once again, an absolutely fascinating episode. I for one can't wait to see it finished and rolling around your property ready to be a parade Queen. Kuds and Adults will love watching it roll clanking and rattling by.
I really enjoy watching your videos on refurbishing the all the Farm Tractors you have done. You’re a very talented man. I’m a retired 44 years as a Fireman and Locomotive Engineer.I hired on Penn Central in March 1974 as a Fireman. I Went to Locomotive Engineers Training Program in August 1975.I was promoted to Locomotive Engineer in July 1976. Was demoted back to Fireman for the next 6 years. I would get promoted back to Locomotive Engineer for the month of July of each year. Until Conrail broke up into CSX ,Norfolk Southern, Amtrak,New Jersey Transit Rail Operations and the other Commuter Railroads. When Conrail broke up. I wasn’t sure I can either hold a job as Locomotive Engineer. Luckily if I couldn’t. The United Transportation Union represented Fireman. Any Prior Right Fireman”Penn Central”. Was placed on the National Trainman’s Roster with hiring date. If I couldn’t hold a Locomotive Engineer job. I would have went Conducting until I was needed as a Locomotive Engineer. I was lucky to get a job on NJTRO . I was third from being on the bottom of the Locomotive Engineer roster. I’m curious as to what job did you have on the railroad? What railroad did you work for?
@@squatch253 I’m so sorry that you got furloughed. That just plain SUCKS. Being a Conductor is a excellent job. As you are aware SENIORITY is everything when it comes to working for the railroad. My family has been railroaders since my Great Great Grandfather was a Locomotive Engineer on the once great Pennsylvania Railroad. Many of my family members worked or work on the railroad. Both of my sons are Locomotive Engineers on NJTRO. My oldest Grandson is now a 7th generation railroader. He just passed his finals and is a promoted Conductor on NJTRO.
The one piece bronze bush looks to be a good workmanlike solution. I suspect MM would have used it if one of their design engineers had come up with the idea. Just don't screw up that bronze stock.
Having worked on many different odd pieces of equipment and seeing many different bushing designs the one piece idea sounds like a very good solution to me. 2 bushings and a separate thrust washer is too many fiddly bits and 3 chances for something to go wrong. X231 is the reason I started watching your channel and have thoroughly enjoyed everything I've seen.
After looking at the engineered blueprint; You have my approval to continue. LoL I know that’s what you were waiting for!😂 After reading the pinned 1at comment maybe I didn’t approve this after all!??😮
As with any one off job, much of the time is taken up coming with a plan, and then sleeping on it, only to throw out part of the plan, as one minor alteration, can throw the plan out at anytime, at which point you have nothing to show for all the time you've already invested.. it's just how it is...
My mind is asking how you are going to assemble the shaft and components with that step you are going to cut in the shaft for your new bushing idea. You can use your 1 piece bushing idea but you have to make it in the original thickness of the prototype bushing. Or mill out the cage to fit a thicker bushing.
So very true.
@@JCMoncur I was just watching this and wondering how Squatch was going to get a 1.5" piece of shaft through a 1.3" bushing.
But I wasn't going to put it past him achieving it....
Edit: Unless he splits the axle from the gearbox again to get enough clearance to move the shaft through enought to drop the clutch and spider in and then the shaft back... the refit axle to gearbox.
Sounds like a true plan coming together
Never apologise for a theory video sir. The process of figuring a solution is a great time to learn. I think your solution is sound. No obvious disadvantages and it saves the proto pieces from needing to be altered. It’s a winner in my book.
This is absolutely fascinating video series. Many people do rebuilds of old production iron, which is interesting. However, restoring a prototype introduces such a complex set of problems. The prototype parts not quite being the same as production, limited parts lists, drawings, etc. This is great stuff. Very, very interesting and engaging content of mechanics, machining , problem solving, etc. Keep up the good work. Very good stuff here.
What he said Great comment I agree 100% very interesting videos
That is going to be some neat machine work! I agree the single piece really looks and sound like a 2nd evolution of the X231 parts
I believe your one piece bushing idea is very sound. Always better to be simple, it solves all the problems and doesn't bring any to the table. Don't worry that you're boring us, this is the stuff we came to see!! Yes, it's a challenge, but that's why you do it, to find the problems and solve them, and get smarter in the process, and enjoy it. Carry on, at whatever pace works for you.
Sasquatch 253 is the best mechanic I have seen on TH-cam
the idea of a flanged bronze bushing popped into my noggin 6 min into this video, so you aren't alone in your thinking.
and if I thought of it, you know it's a great idea.
And that is why I watch your vids my friend, We love the way you think and work problems.
I like your approach to challenges, your thought process is very mechanical in nature. I really enjoy watching you overcome these things!
I say go for it. I don't see an issue with it. I think it'll likely be better than original.
I think you nailed it, my worries for a one piece bearing were lubrication and you came up with great lubrication paths….some great shop engineering
Hi squash 253, this series has been very interesting and your ideas have been pretty much on the money. My thinking is the same as yours. Cheers and good luck Dave T.
Great example of "ARMCHAIR ENGINEERING " !!!
Very interesting - looking forward to seeing it come together... I can't think of anything better ..
I think that is a better plan than the 3 pieces, as long as the end thrust is minimal because as you already know the bearing surfaces are not exactly opposing each other. Maybe you could leave as big a radius as possible under the flange and make the flange a little thicker for strength. that's what I'm thinking just from observing. I'm sure you have already thought of this anyway. I've been a Machinist for over 40 years and am still learning. Every different situation or problem to solve makes me think a little bit further out of the box, I Love it. Keep up the good work, I enjoy watching your progress, when I'm not working on my own. TIM
I think your bushing idea is a fantastic one. I would still turn the shaft down. I agree, it's easier to do the bushing later, as it is the less expensive piece, however, it's easier to size an OD to an ID, and you can also check fit it. Your call, whatever you're more comfortable with. You seem to be a skilled enough machinist to make a very good part either which a way. Go for it!
Gosh Mate, You've given that right thumb a fair whack!!!
My unprofessional and amateur opinion is go ahead with your new idea. One piece doing the job or three pieces. At the same time you are preserving the shaft as it was. Removing material from the shaft is a huge commitment. If for whatever reason it goes sour then it's a big job to weld it back up and machine back to spec.
I think it would be so interesting to be able to watch a movie of what goes on in your mind when you're thinking and trying to figure our a new plan of action. lol
Always enjoy your videos, keep up the good work.
Minneapolis Moline. Ugh. Had a major learning curve building their inline 4 in a 'skykitty'. Individual jugs. Mechanical fuel injection. Guess I was spoiled by flathead Continentals. Cool project you have - as was restoring that 'skykitty'!
Absolutely amazed at your thought process on making that a one piece part👌 I could follow your train of thought but could never have come up with that ingenious idea 🤔💪👍
Just thinking out loud here. I like your idea of making a full-length flanged bushing for your thrust bushing. But I also think you might be able to find a large enough flanged bushing and machine it to your specs. Unfortunately, you already have your Lump Of Bronze on the bench. You might also be able to find an Oil lite type bushing. There was a place called Reliable Bronze in Stanchfield near Rush Lake that just might have a blank that would be sufficient and maybe some more experienced input for you. An Oil lite bushing is already impregnated with oil & made with Sintered Bronze so it would be porous enough to wick oil through itself. This is what we were in trade school for.
Great job ,I love to see the thought process . Very good problem solving skills ! love your channel .
All of your content is good, wholesome entertainment! Either route you choose is ok by me, but with 45 years of aerospace machining in me-I’ll cast my vote for the 3-in-1 carved out of a hundred dollar bill! Could I ask if you machine out an oil cavity that it be coated with Glyptal? Maybe Bork will be curse-less for a New York minute!
First thing I understand the shiny thing distraction commend I can relate.
The new design of the bushing is a good idea for this application.
Toby the engineer, go with the solid bronze part, good call, it should work well. Thanx for sharing.😃
Great video along with details. Points of Interest, the Shaft can be consider the 1st point, referencing all items to work from its Dimensions. I think there are some specific specs to view, considering clearance's. The OD of shaft can be small giving good thick wall space of bushing, the length is in not worry. The ID of bushing can be set to a good clearance, but worried of some length, wall thickness of outer rim butting up to bearing. My first thought after speaking of a Trust Bushing was to build one complete Bronze Bushing. :)
I think that certainly minimizing the number of parts is best. Often we seem to be able to come up with a complicated solution but simplifying this is the more taxing process. I think you have been through this loop now and come up with a robust solution. Essentially shafts delivering power have four ways they can fail. There is torque load against the keys, splines and any pins or grub screws on shafts. There are end loads caused by gears trying to "screw" themselves apart or pull themselves together. There are side loads on the bearings or unsupported lengths of shafts, and the other failure is the shaft whipping under speed and load. This is all about the number of bearings and lengths of unsupported shaft versus shaft diameter. With all this pretty well pre designed there is not much you can do now other than be sure that your solution takes cognizance of the above. If its just going to be light loads on the show ground I am sure you will be fine.
I might be full of beans, but if you cut the shaft down and press that bushing in, that will prevent you from sliding the shaft through from the back
I very much enjoyed this episode; I like the 1 piece bushing idea.
I don't see how you can go wrong with a bigger, stronger, simpler bushing -especially in a place where it will realistically receive very little thrust.
By the way, a big part of what I (and I think a lot of others here) enjoy about your channel is you explaining your thought processes and why you chose to do the things you do, and that you consider all the variables before you make a decision. :)
It marvels me the thought process you use to eliminate future problems. That is one of the reasons I enjoy watching your videos. Your solutions are genius. In one of my working career jobs I had the privilege of working for a business repairing and upkeep of the production tools. Wide variety of equipment used for manufacturing/production. Little did I know that was going to be a time consuming, designing, and the process was very challenging. All this was at a time when OSHA was on a push to make the work place safer. The rest of the story relates very well to how you do your restorations. Fix it right the first time and no more worries. I know it takes a long time to make a short video. More planning. Losing sleep. Keep up what you are doing. It is something I enjoy seeing what you are doing. Education for many to see.
Squatch, lining up that clutch pack is very similar to installing a C-130 aircraft brake stack except it's much heavier. We feel your pain.
That flanged bushing idea makes sense, has to work! Haha
I think your idea is the right way to go
Watching the build of X231 and seeing how you think your way through the different issues that come with rebuilding a tractor is fascinating. It makes you think how the engineeres thought their way through each step in designing and building X231 from a set of plans on paper to a operating tractor. You are following their mind set when you come up with the fixes to bring X231 back. I think the one piece bushing is the way to go. Great job so far with the build. Look forward to the next video.
I started watching your channel a couple of years ago because of this series, so I’m really glad to see you continuing on with it! I do understand the frustration with working on the prototype tho.. trying to envision the forces involved on the one-piece flanged thrust bushing, it seems like that will work fine, especially since the bevel gear is going to be pushing the whole cage away from that thrust surface. Lubrication is the unknown, like someone else already said.
You too? I've been waiting patiently for Toby to come back to this project. I have binge watched this series from the beginning at least 3 or 4 times while waiting for some progress. I have a feeling that a bunch of us are praying for a long winter so he will keep working on it. He said in a previous comment that he was waiting for good weather to start another project so I'm worried that he might be facing a year without a summer.
Hey Toby! I had a crazy vision of a way to press that one piece bushing into that hub involving a hollow ram press setup with the clutch assembly in the housing. I see that you ended up seeing the problem after you had already cut the shaft down. Don't let it get you down. for almost every mistake I have ever made on a project I have come up with a few crazy solutions and one of them worked. I wish I could show you what my brain is seeing. I am visualizing a threaded adapter to go on the end of the shaft to adapt a hollow ram to and a sleeve to push the bushing into the hub and a clip to hold the hub from being pushed forward against the clutch assembly. I know it's crazy, but if by some chance there is enough room to remove the stop clip from behind the clutch assembly it might just work.
I told you that my ideas are crazy. Sometimes you have to laugh. I still remember the time 2 of my friends were helping me pull a pump out of my well. 1 of them let go of the rope and the whole thing went back down the well. The poor guy was looking at me with fear in his eyes. I was laughing so hard at the time that he thought I had lost my mind. The end of the pipe was about 75 feet down and the rope was about 250 feet down. What he didn't know was before the pump hit bottom I already knew how I was going to get it. My wife was there when it happened and was convinced that we were going to have to call a well drilling company to get the pump out and another one back in. She was also convinced that I had lost my mind. When I told her not to worry and that it was just a minor setback, she almost lost her mind. By the time she calmed down the next morning, I was on the second recovery attempt and had the end of the pipe coming out of the well.
1-piece greatly simplifies what is going on once in place. Though as said this would basically be a trailer queen, if ever it did see use the 1-pc serving in place of the thrust washer would seem to live longer. Few bits to also fiddle with for prior assembly.
Your patience absolutely amazes me !!! You could probably even get a job in the "daycare" industry !!! Kudos to you.
No matter how long it takes when you get done this tractor will be priceless and totally prototype
When solving a difficult problem it is good to get away from it and do something less intense like plowing snow. It appears you have the solution. You would have made a terrific engineer for MM or any company.
Excellent idea!!!! Plus you don’t have to do all that cutting
very good work-----------------thank you for all your good input.
Well thought out plan Toby. As Elon Musk has said, the part you don't make is the part that doesn't break.
Looking forward to the next episode of X231.
I'm certain you had good reasons but wondered why you didn't preassemble the clutch pack.
That doesn't really matter tho.
Like Carson, more to come!
Brilliant bushing solution.
What you are suggesting there can also be termed as "Prototype" , albeit an improvement on the original prototype system.. so why not... great idea.
Great job your doing and your shop is so tidy!
One piece bronze with as many added oil grooves and ports that you can put in it. Got to be better than what was there before, cause the tractor ate it. Good idea, now go knock it out. I have faith it will work as planned.
I'll disagree on it being better on the outside looking in. Although I enjoy these kinds of problem analysis and solution episodes... it is precisely these type of challenges and ingenuity that makes this kind of work so intriguing. I wish I were there hands on with you on this one (I spent a good bit of my career as a product development engineer). Yep, solving them can be a pain, but the solution is very rewarding!! It's one of the reasons I come here. Paint, polish and throwing new parts at an old equipment is available ad nausem on TH-cam. Getting to know the innards and engineering of shit designed with slide rules is a treat. (edit: typo)
If I understand the full use of this the bushing will be under very little load radially except when things are engaged. The thrust should be minimal except when there is a load on the PTO. So lubrication is key. You want the shaft to spin free most of the time. The wear on the original bushing seems like it is likely related to the failure that cased the marks you were pointing out. The only time you would have significant load on the bushing with the PTO engaged the bushing should be rotating with the shaft so you shouldn't see that wear. I'm probably missing something with this as I can't really see from the videos enough detail to be sure. My sense is the design you are proposing, assuming a reasonable clearance for the bushing and adequate lubrication, will be sufficient even for doing a significant amount of work. For a parade queen, more than adequate. Looking forward to see how this works out.
“The idea poped in my head plowing snow”! I have not a dought in my mind that that your ideas gonna work, and probably pretty good at that! Keep up the good work man, love your videos!!
Great plan! Please show us as much of the machining and lathe work as your rural Internet will allow!
Liking the journey thanks for sharing it .
Looks good on paper BUT you'll make it work. Go for it
Can't begin to imagine the frustration on this, but don't give up on it. My wife and I love watching this, the problem solving and tool making etc. I'm in the trade and still love this. Don't give up on it. Look how far you have come.
You are hitting the nail on the head. Prototype machine means doing Prototyping. Otherwise you are just a fitter of parts. So good on you.
Good for thought, that rear case repair where you had work done, what if you made t bushing and replaced existing bushing and would gain thrust bearing surface. Great stuff
I think the 1 piece, instead of 3 bushing is the way to go. I currently still us 3 MM power units, that you mentioned in the History episode for irrigation now.
This was a very neat drawing there! I think your plan is sound ; nice to see another prototype peace getting back into X231
Great solution with that bushing...
Excellent job, nice to watch this all ! Greetings from Finland.
I'm digesting the assembly and need to walk through what I see. The shell is free floating on the shaft. It is limited in axial movement by a thrust washer against the case on one end and a thrust washer against the hub on the other. The adjustment on the hub via the set screw and nut will control gear backlash and end play of the shell. That's how I'm reading this. I concur that the thrust load on the shell is minimal and driven mostly by the bevel gear. I would agree that the flat surface area in the case is marginal at best for a repeat thrust washer. In looking at your sketch are you planning on turning the shaft down to the same OD as the ID of the tapered bearing? If you do that then the bushing will become part of the shaft pre-load and I don't see how the bushing can freewheel on the shaft. I'm going to assume you are leaving a shoulder/ step on the shaft so the tapered bearing is up against the same shoulder, then a diameter change for the new bushing? The bushing pressed in the shell will have some float on the shaft and the limit will be the back side of the race instead of the casting. Your sketches are easy to follow and rather clear, that's my reason for comment. I'm a gearhead, enjoy your videos, it's a mechanics mini-series.
To argue a bit about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, and to understand your aesthetic: You are going to make a piece that doesn't exist in either production or in the prototype to solve a problem here, and I am not sure how that is better than resorting to production parts to make a working tractor. Cheers, i always admire your skills .
I like the one piece bushing idea.
you could make a spot facing tool.
It would be steel piloted through the bore.
A single piece of high-speed steel as a tool bit, and then a crowd nut and a cross bar handle.
Just a hand crank powered tool to increase the width trust face.
I am a machinist I can explain more if you want more details
Oh please don't get burned out. Take some time off. We'll wait. Your mechanical skills are so well above the curve. It is my pleasure to just watch you.
Great idea on the bushing
My wife says biting is a love language and Christine certainly is a fickle, demanding gal to love! I love the series and applaud all the hard love it takes to not just lipstick it for show but document, preserve, and truly restore this rare machine!
I think it's a great idea for the 1-piece bushing, especially for a show queen! I love this tractor series more than any others I have seen period. It has sent me in directions I hadn't thought of going. Your detailed descriptions, analogies and telling us you thought prosses throughout the whole series I have found vary useful, so thank you for that! I know this tractor has caused you a lot of stress, but I have to say it has been highly beneficial. Keep plowing through and I'll keep watching. Tack care!
I woul make a flanged bushing and use one of the purchased bushings. The depth of a single bushing is probably much larger than needed. It will be easier to install two shallow bushings rather than a single long bushing.
Squirrel! I so understand this! I alway keep a pad and paper near me to write notes when I wake up with a brilliant idea to solve a nagging problem. I love your idea for the bushing. Now I see some shiny baubles that need my attention.. See ya!
Your idea is a mechanics wish in simplicity and an engineers worst nightmare of not being over engineered! The 50s was the decade when tractor companies went leaps and inbounds in design and horsepower. Each company had a niche the other ones copied or improved on! Thanks for sharing! Best of luck getting it altogether.
By eliminating thin walled bushings, they will not collapse again. Win.
Reducing the 2 thin wall bushings to the one thick walled bushing is also a win.
Adding the thrust bushing into the thick walled bushing is a won again.
Oil grooves, oil catch point(s), and holes connecting will improve lubrication that it never had prior is a win again.
If you're still concerned with lubrication to it, maybe a scavenge pump and tube leading directly to this bushing and spraying it with the oil is an idea. You should be able to add one somewhere in the case, easy enough; if it would even be needed.
You have reduced and consolidated multiple problems into one piece, and it itself is a hand-made prototype piece. Sounds fitting to this prototype tractor to me.
Go for it, brother. It's all wins in my book.
You have options.. 1. How close are the proposed tolerances to going with a needle bearing instead of bushings? 2. Going ahead with the bushings resize plus oil slotting the bushings. 3. Doing nothing new and Leaving the pto engaged all the time (with added guard at back). 3a. Modifying and still leave pto engaged. 4. Have no pto clutch inside, but have the appearance of pto on the outside. Now to finish the video and eat my words😂.
Well, didn't have to eat words after finishing the video. Thought of another idea. Front of drum a new sized bushing as shown at the beginning, slotted etc. Back of the drum a tapered bearing and cone, reversed direction to the live shaft cup and cone that already exist. ? Lots of measuring to do. Do you want to dyno the tractor ever? Then the pto and pulley need to be slightly robust. You'll strike a thinker pose for awhile.
Just searched needle bearing on McMaster Carr for my snow blower and some interesting things came up that might work, such as a combo thrust and radial bearing. Neat
This tractor must have had a chequered life. I'm surprised it was pulled to bits and repaired so many times.
Keep doing what you are doing, prototype or not I learn more each episode, it don't matter what color it is I find it quite interesting and entertaining. You do good work and I enjoy watching you !
Good plan. IMO its going to work better than the prototype or even the production one and likely would be able to reliably "work for a living" if it had to, which it won't, as it will be a garage queen.
Keep it simple; the idea of a single bushing with a thrust flange is a good idea…
As soon as you had the sketch, it made sense to make a one piece bushing. Great work.
Isn't the original point of youtube for viewers to be entertained by others pain and suffering? 😂😅😂 Just kidding! I was watching some of the early Feb videos, you have made some killer progress on X231 this year.
Great video....I like the plan!
Thanks for the video Squatch. Everything you're explaining makes sense to me and I think your plan will work better than the original design. Cheers
What a BIG Freakin Watch!!!!
Now I really get you Toby. Transporting yourself back to the 50's in tractor development. Very brave and I'm jealous. What will end up biting you later on is usually some crazy person / operator later on with a big foot .... but that's you or Sr so you should be ok. Good luck and thanks for posting.
One of the things I really appreciate here is the thorough forensics regarding breakdowns and failures. Good stuff. Thanks. As for the thrust bearing design discussed at the end, I'm going to vote with whatever your decide. Cowardly, yes. But realistic too. Can't wait to see what does get implemented in the end.
The single piece bushing is a great idea. Fewer parts to break...simpler is always better. The single part will be more robust than the original 3 parts. Keep up the great work!!!!
I enjoy being on the outside looking in, lol. Great video as always, your work and efforts are very much appreciated!
The fewer parts the better. A bushing with a shoulder acting as a washer is a SUPERB idea !!!
😊
I think your bushing work around is the way to go, $100 bushing is nothing compared to the total of the whole job and trying to preserve a working machine. Thinking on this tractor, I personally would not have the patience, to combat prototype V production differences. Your commitment to this old beast is worthy of praise.🛠
Super good idea on engineering . I just love this tractor rebuild and was lost when it ended before . Not stuck on M M's but love you walking us through the engineering and how the tractor was built , keep up the good work!
Hang in there we appreciate every effort, we know it's not easy that's why we watch thank you
Just keep up the good fight slaying those dragons.
Once again, an absolutely fascinating episode.
I for one can't wait to see it finished and rolling around your property ready to be a parade Queen.
Kuds and Adults will love watching it roll clanking and rattling by.
Genius absolute genius. God speed young man. I absolutely love watching you work. Please don’t stop
I agree with your idea it's far better way to go
I really enjoy watching your videos on refurbishing the all the Farm Tractors you have done. You’re a very talented man.
I’m a retired 44 years as a Fireman and Locomotive Engineer.I hired on Penn Central in March 1974 as a Fireman. I Went to Locomotive Engineers Training Program in August 1975.I was promoted to Locomotive Engineer in July 1976. Was demoted back to Fireman for the next 6 years. I would get promoted back to Locomotive Engineer for the month of July of each year. Until Conrail broke up into CSX ,Norfolk Southern, Amtrak,New Jersey Transit Rail Operations and the other Commuter Railroads. When Conrail broke up. I wasn’t sure I can either hold a job as Locomotive Engineer. Luckily if I couldn’t. The United Transportation Union represented Fireman. Any Prior Right Fireman”Penn Central”. Was placed on the National Trainman’s Roster with hiring date. If I couldn’t hold a Locomotive Engineer job. I would have went Conducting until I was needed as a Locomotive Engineer. I was lucky to get a job on NJTRO . I was third from being on the bottom of the Locomotive Engineer roster.
I’m curious as to what job did you have on the railroad? What railroad did you work for?
@@squatch253
I’m so sorry that you got furloughed. That just plain SUCKS. Being a Conductor is a excellent job. As you are aware SENIORITY is everything when it comes to working for the railroad.
My family has been railroaders since my Great Great Grandfather was a Locomotive Engineer on the once great Pennsylvania Railroad. Many of my family members worked or work on the railroad. Both of my sons are Locomotive Engineers on NJTRO. My oldest Grandson is now a 7th generation railroader. He just passed his finals and is a promoted Conductor on NJTRO.
One piece to do the job of three, go for it. Save those expensive bronze shavings lol
The one piece bronze bush looks to be a good workmanlike solution. I suspect MM would have used it if one of their design engineers had come up with the idea. Just don't screw up that bronze stock.
Having worked on many different odd pieces of equipment and seeing many different bushing designs the one piece idea sounds like a very good solution to me. 2 bushings and a separate thrust washer is too many fiddly bits and 3 chances for something to go wrong. X231 is the reason I started watching your channel and have thoroughly enjoyed everything I've seen.
After looking at the engineered blueprint; You have my approval to continue. LoL I know that’s what you were waiting for!😂
After reading the pinned 1at comment maybe I didn’t approve this after all!??😮
I like the idea of thrust sleeve bush all in one