I've been working with a flow rate of around 2.6ml/s and use the maximum pressure to dial in my grind size. It's yielded great results so far, slow initial pressure rise to around 3 bar, then a sharper rise to 5-7 bar which then slowly tapers back down to around 4 bar. I'll start experimenting with ramping the flow rate to 3ml/s and see what happens.
If flow control being important is that wrong then how come the Slayer espresso machine (That does flow control) is able to pull a shot with a much finer grind than the Decent?
@@decentespresso I read that someone with a Decent espresso machine tried to do a Slayer profile but was unable to do so because the beans were too fine, although his Slayer machine was capable of brewing that particular grind. My understanding is that the Decent can emulate a Slayer shot to a degree but the needle valve patent that the Slayer has allows for a more restricted flow control and __somehow__ yields a higher extraction with the finer grind size. Could you correct me if I'm wrong? I'm having a hard time researching this very topic for my next Espresso purchase.
@@Adam-cn5ib Yeah, I'm sorry, but this sounds like bs. When "somehow" comes into play and not logic or measurement, it's not credible to me. I've made hundreds of slayer shots, and they're more repeateable than Slayers, as our flow control is not analog. 1.5mls set, you get 1.5ml/s, whereas slayers is a needle valve that varies each time you move it. More likely, the person didn't dial things in correctly, and just blamed the Decent.
@@Adam-cn5ib But besides that, nobody wants to make this style of shot any more. The very slow flow rate overextracts the top of the puck and underextracts the bottom. Everyone (not just Decent customers) have moved to a pressurized long preinfusion, called the "Blooming Espresso". Decent innovated it, but manual lever machines can do it, as can machines that can hold pressure and stop flow.
@@decentespressotech I see, thanks for the clarification. I am strongly considering getting a Decent machine so I hope I don't give away the wrong vibe.
So all these people fitting flow controls to their E61s are just going to make no end of headaches for themselves. And mostly terrible coffee. They're adding them to profitec pro700s like its the must have mod. But without the information available through the decent software, its going to be an unmitigated disaster. Uh... Whoops!
You can make good shots with these setups, but it takes a LOOONG time to gather the necessary experience. I'm getting a DE1 to replace my Bianca just as I'm starting to get better results... still, loads of guesswork, so you're right about that.
@@JoeyTen turns out the two main differences since I got the Decent are: 1. a better grinder 😅 2. water quality- now I mix my own water according to the grinder and my bean preferences. You can't really get accurate with water with a Bianca due to the boiler building up scale over time, a problem that the Decent doesn't have.
Thanks for your efforts but it’d be much informative if you include a demonstration on an actual espresso machine instead of keep talking talking the whole video
I was interested in your product BUT the moment you said little change in flow will have huge change in pressure !!!! I have my doubts..I advice you to hire a fluid mechanical engineer...flow and pressure are in linear relationship to some extent.
This is referring to the data we see from extractions from within the grouphead. Increasing the flowrate of your shot on a DE1 we can see the pressure increases within the grouphead. The coffee provides the resistance to build pressure via the grind setting and it is the flowrate that essentially dictates the pressure. You are correct, flow and pressure are in a linear relationship but we must also consider other factors too, in this case the grind.
Nobita, your question got me thinking. It's true the flow and pressure should be linearly related. But there are nonlinearities at play here. The puck flow restriction profile changes with pressure and with flow itself. As pressure increases, it compresses the puck, increasing resistance, decreasing flow. At the same time, as flow occurs, material is removed and flow increases. Very interesting flow profile to model mathematically.
@@pauloribeiro2926 I think you talking about flow velocity ..also your internal parts between restrictions, tubing diameters, and valves will play a good factor in flow velocity.
![NONT TANONT - ดอกไม้ที่รอฝน (spring) - Reimagined [Live Session]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nY2PsFZFEOg/mqdefault.jpg)
Actually one of the best videos I have heard discussing pressure and flow profiling.
why not resistance profile?
shouldn't there be added pressure during the bloom, just a little?
very informative, thanks!
I've been working with a flow rate of around 2.6ml/s and use the maximum pressure to dial in my grind size. It's yielded great results so far, slow initial pressure rise to around 3 bar, then a sharper rise to 5-7 bar which then slowly tapers back down to around 4 bar. I'll start experimenting with ramping the flow rate to 3ml/s and see what happens.
If flow control being important is that wrong then how come the Slayer espresso machine (That does flow control) is able to pull a shot with a much finer grind than the Decent?
Slayer shots use a very slow flow rate, which the Decent can also do. Typically 1.5ml/s. That very slow flow rate needs a very, very fine grind.
@@decentespresso I read that someone with a Decent espresso machine tried to do a Slayer profile but was unable to do so because the beans were too fine, although his Slayer machine was capable of brewing that particular grind.
My understanding is that the Decent can emulate a Slayer shot to a degree but the needle valve patent that the Slayer has allows for a more restricted flow control and __somehow__ yields a higher extraction with the finer grind size. Could you correct me if I'm wrong? I'm having a hard time researching this very topic for my next Espresso purchase.
@@Adam-cn5ib Yeah, I'm sorry, but this sounds like bs. When "somehow" comes into play and not logic or measurement, it's not credible to me.
I've made hundreds of slayer shots, and they're more repeateable than Slayers, as our flow control is not analog. 1.5mls set, you get 1.5ml/s, whereas slayers is a needle valve that varies each time you move it.
More likely, the person didn't dial things in correctly, and just blamed the Decent.
@@Adam-cn5ib But besides that, nobody wants to make this style of shot any more. The very slow flow rate overextracts the top of the puck and underextracts the bottom. Everyone (not just Decent customers) have moved to a pressurized long preinfusion, called the "Blooming Espresso". Decent innovated it, but manual lever machines can do it, as can machines that can hold pressure and stop flow.
@@decentespressotech I see, thanks for the clarification.
I am strongly considering getting a Decent machine so I hope I don't give away the wrong vibe.
Since pressure is a variable that one cannot input directly, how does the decent do pressure profiling?
Increase flow, you increase pressure, if there's a coffee puck resisting the water.
@@decentespresso how can you add more flow without adding more pressure?
So all these people fitting flow controls to their E61s are just going to make no end of headaches for themselves. And mostly terrible coffee. They're adding them to profitec pro700s like its the must have mod. But without the information available through the decent software, its going to be an unmitigated disaster. Uh... Whoops!
You can make good shots with these setups, but it takes a LOOONG time to gather the necessary experience. I'm getting a DE1 to replace my Bianca just as I'm starting to get better results... still, loads of guesswork, so you're right about that.
@@zozzyka did you replace your Bianca? I’m considering both machines, and the manual control of the Bianca is appealing
@@zozzyka I'm considering both machines as well. How do you like the DE1 vs. Bianca?
@@JoeyTen turns out the two main differences since I got the Decent are: 1. a better grinder 😅 2. water quality- now I mix my own water according to the grinder and my bean preferences. You can't really get accurate with water with a Bianca due to the boiler building up scale over time, a problem that the Decent doesn't have.
@@zozzyka I never thought about the buildup of scale over time, but it makes sense. Thanks for the info!
Thanks for your efforts but it’d be much informative if you include a demonstration on an actual espresso machine instead of keep talking talking the whole video
I was interested in your product BUT the moment you said little change in flow will have huge change in pressure !!!! I have my doubts..I advice you to hire a fluid mechanical engineer...flow and pressure are in linear relationship to some extent.
This is referring to the data we see from extractions from within the grouphead. Increasing the flowrate of your shot on a DE1 we can see the pressure increases within the grouphead. The coffee provides the resistance to build pressure via the grind setting and it is the flowrate that essentially dictates the pressure. You are correct, flow and pressure are in a linear relationship but we must also consider other factors too, in this case the grind.
Nobita, your question got me thinking. It's true the flow and pressure should be linearly related. But there are nonlinearities at play here. The puck flow restriction profile changes with pressure and with flow itself. As pressure increases, it compresses the puck, increasing resistance, decreasing flow. At the same time, as flow occurs, material is removed and flow increases. Very interesting flow profile to model mathematically.
@@pauloribeiro2926 I think you talking about flow velocity ..also your internal parts between restrictions, tubing diameters, and valves will play a good factor in flow velocity.