Why Nancy Is Scrapping Its Magically Bonkers Monorail-Bus-Trams
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- In 1999, the eastern French city of Nancy decided to replace its ageing trolleybuses with an experimental new type of tram: the TVR. It was just like a normal tram, except it had rubber wheels, only one rail, and if wanted, it could run off the rail completely and turn into a bus. Basically, it was brilliant. So why are they getting rid of it?
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MORE INFO
Excellent video by @RMTransit about the wider subject of rubber-tyred trams:
• Rubber-Tire Rail Trans... RM
Local news article about the new trolleybus (and the retirement of the TVR) - www.grandnancy...
Article by Urban Transport Magazine on the story - www.urban-tran...
IMAGE CREDITS
Line 1 route map - www.reseau-stan.com
Nancy macaroons - commons.wikime...
A few things I'd like to add as footnotes to this vid:
1. The new trolleybuses arriving next year will be 100% electric - they will have batteries that can be charged while driving under wires, that can then be used for running without the wires for diversions, trips to the depot, etc. Until the trolleybuses arrive, there will be a temporary replacement service using conventional buses.
2. Fitting the TVRs with diesel engines just so they can go to the depot is a daft situation to get yourself into, but to be absolutely fair, it was probably the best solution in the circumstances: cheaper and quicker than installing wires, tracks, or building a new depot. It also meant the trams could take diversions if required. Still, the new trolleybuses + rechargeable batteries are a better solution long term.
3. As many of you have pointed out in the comments, there's an advantage of running on rails that I missed from my list: safety. If you are a pedestrian, or another road user, you always know exactly where a tram or TVR is going, and that it cannot deviate from the track. There are of course other pros and cons that I did not cover - it's only a 9 minute video after all - but this feels like the most important one.
I lived there 20 years ago when they were new and I'm sure I remember them running under diesel on part of the route. Maybe they just hadn't finished installing the overhead wires.
If they failed to engage with the track at Callot they had to start the diesel engine and go around the block to line up and try again!
Great fun and I'm really sad that I won't see them again but I do understand why they've been retired.
The new 24m trolleybusses will be built by HESS (Switzerland), with IMC (In Motion Charging) technology like the trolleybuses in Lyon or St-Etienne. The trolleybus will refuel its battery thanks to the overhead contact line during motion.
The centrale part of the existing overhead contact line is to be removed, the rest wil be upraded.
Fun fact : when a TVR was accidentally "dé-droppé" (without guidance) where it was supposed to be "droppé", the driver had to put an ⚠ sign behind the windshield to alert an incoming TVR driver that the clearence between them would be reduced.
The track radius at the Gare station was 11m, but the vehicle was supposed to tolerate a minimum radius of 13m !
I wonder why they didn't just add a depot for these vehicles somewhere along the line, or at the beginning or end? That way they wouldn't have needed the additional diesel engine to drive across town. When decisions are made that make little sense, someone is likely profiting greatly at the expense of the citizens.
3. Hmmm, not if you are riding a narrow tyred bike
@@markthomasson5077 very true. Pros and cons to everything!
Just love this, it’s so French in all the best and charmingly idiosyncratic ways. This guy finds so many interesting stories throughout Europe that I never knew I needed to know about.
The concept was invented by a Belgian company, but your point still stands.
I don't get this thing about saying it's French when it's weird or stupid...
This trolley-tram is so French that it's Belgian and used in 1 city out of all those in France. There's nothing more French, it's on the same level as the baguette.
@@Petitmoi74 I would gently point out that Mark described its Frenchness in positive terms - it was you who changed it to a negative.
And to be fair, rubber-tyred trams ARE very French. Every single system has been built either in France, or by France.
@@Petitmoi74 it may only be used in one city in France, but France is the only country to use it. And making it free at weekends, well that’s very French (just like their relaxed attitude to parking charges). Nice to see a country put customer service ahead of profit.
Ok ok, I was too sensitive, sorry.
I live in Caen, where there used to be exactly the same kind of tram. In fact, I arrived there pretty much a year and a half before this style of tram was fully discontinued.
The sound the trams in the videos made when they accelerated and descelerated brought back memories...
Fun fact: in Caen, the tram never got off the rail during normal service. In fact, the only point when it got off the rail was when it took the road to go back to its hangar (or whatever storage space they were using). No overhead cables on the road; it ran on a fuel engine (Diesel, I believe, though don't quote me on that).
In fact, as part of the tram replacement process, they removed the cables before the tram was fully discontinued; so for a while, it ran on its usual track with passengers, but running on its backup engine...
I posted that comment before I got to the part where Tim mentioned the Diesel engine. My bad ^^
Another fun fact is that the Caen transport company, Twisto, gave its former tram monorail buses to Nancy when they discontinued their service a few years ago. I wonder what will happen to them now!!
@@elenacostante4530 If they're not booked passage to Nouvelle Caledonie or the like, they ought to go to Northern Syria as a better alternative than a tent.
Oh man, I used to study in Caen. I’m really sad to hear that they discontinued the trolleybus!
@@Koff33y It's been replaced with a far more practical and more comfortable conventional tramway that is even more awesome.
Love the way you "crashed" the wikipedia page out of the frame using the tram bus! 😆😁😄
And the transition to the next shot immediately after was great too
As a Belgian, I wondered how something so absurd did not exist in my country. Then I remembered that the idea came from a Belgian company. Belgium, the leading exporter of surrealism. "Ceci n'est pas une pipe.'" has been adapted in "Ceci n'est pas un bus."
Why absurd? This is the best solution to maximally simplify work of drivers, arrive to platforms with centimeter precision, all in narrow streets. And its more quiet than a tram. Great solution.
@@mareksykora779 In theory. In Nancy it isn't.
@@mareksykora779 No, it's not the best solution for that. In Castellón de la Plana (Spain) they have a trolleybus with an optical guidance (markings on the road) and the bus follows this, so you don't need a rail to get close to platforms. es.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRAM_de_Castell%C3%B3n
The TVR is nor quieter than a trolleybus. Due to the needed guide rail & wheels there is an additional unnecessary source of noise. When the TVR was introduced, there were several derailments. As a result, the contact pressure of the guidance wheels was increased, which further increased the noise of the guidance.
@@christian_maibaum It is quieter than a tram and much more accurate in navigating to the platform with less driver effort than a trolleybus. That's why it's the best. Optical guidance can be good, but the same can work with this navigation rail. It can also be used only as a source of navigation information for a much softer and completely silent navigation system. And much more reliable than just an optical system tracking some painted signs on the street.
I agree. it's so absurd, it could have been invented here in austria.
it's basically translohr, but with the additional disadvantage that the middle rail does not provide a ground connection. so they have to use trolley bus wires.
I came all the way from Brest to see this thing last Sunday. I must say this was one of the most striking things I've seen. I've already done a few final rides of some legendary vehicles, such as the last Heuliez GX417 in France, but this TVR had a very different feeling. I actually had a tear in my eyes when leaving the train station and seeing these engineering beauties for the very first time of my life.
First I can say that despite being an absolute technological disaster because of all the hundred of conception and construction issues these had, people were quite attached to this legendary transportation device. Actually I've seen quite some drivers literally crying at the end of their last service last Sunday. There was as well a lot of local transit enthousiasts as well as ones who came from all over France and even Germany and Russia to see te TVR one last time.
I've had the chance to get a full carbide with a super nice driver as well, for an hour and a half he was telling me the story of the TVR and listing all the hundred and issues they've had with it for the past 23 years, and he wasn't even done when he left. At first this system was intended to last for 30 years at least, it ended up being fully retired after only 23 years. By the way, only a few years after trying to put it in service, Bombardier actually said this thing won't last more than 15 years, it only lasted longer thanks to Caen removing its system at the end of the year 2018 and sending all their TVRs to Nancy for free so they could keep it a little longer.
As an engineering student, an absolute transit fan and a future transit engineer, this thing really inspired me and will forever be an emblem and a guide for my studies and my future job. It was such a great idea, that ended up being an endless disaster only because of some terrible conception.
I'm going to write a full and very detailed article about this very special vehicle. I'm planning on going over the full history and political context of this device, as well as doing a deep technical analysis of the device, pointing out all the design flaws, possibly with technical documentation.
This thing clearly changed my way of seeing engineering and public transportation. What a special vehicle!
They still have these in Vilnius, Lithuania.
You're welcome to ride it all day long...
@@Muxxyy Do you have any more info on this? I couldn't find any references to a guided light transit system in Vilnius, only a regular trolleybus system.
@@Muxxyy If you are pointing to the Heuliez, I have not seen it for a long time, since the new Solaris Urbinos and MAN Lion City arrived. If you are pointing to TVR, we only have regular trolleybuses.
Hi Clement. I am really really interested in the article you plan to write! Do you know where it will be published, and will the article be accessible for the public?
"The Englishman who Went up a Tram but Came down a Bus"
Obscure movie referens... well.. somewhat
Very obscure 🏴🤣
I don't get it. What's the movie?
@@Jimmy_Jones The Englishman who went up a hill and came down a mountain
@@Jimmy_Jonesthe Englishman who went up a hill and came down with all the bananas.
3:36 The music starts, and my brain instantly fills in the casually spread soundclips of a train horn, the 'woosh' of a starting plane, the sound of a big old diesel starting and the ring of a cash register.
What a great memory of joyfully wasted hours that was...
Hahaha mine too, even after not having played the game intensely for like decades. xD
This must be my most played game by far, on and off for over two decades now.
I came to the comments because I noticed as well :) my first video game on PC was the shareware demo of the original, non-deluxe version. It was magical.
A timeless musical masterpiece
What a superb game. Despite being over 20 years old it’s many features just add to its charm! I do try to play it every couple of years, looks like it’s time to do so again.
I wonder if anyone has made a mod/package in OpenTTD to run these Magically Bonkers Monorail-Bus-Trams? 🤔
Hey, I'm from Padua, one of the cities with rubber tired trams! If I have to be completely honest I don't really get why they exist, lol. We don't have a single hill in sight so a normal tram would work, the tracks get slippery when wet and they're pretty effective bicycle tire traps (and as a city with many cyclists that's an actual problem) so a normal bus would be better... And we already have buses! On the same routes sometimes! Not to mention that they're also annoying with cars, as they can't get around the stupid people and have to stop, while they ruin the roads by always passing on the exact same patch of asphalt that's regularly full of bumps and cracks.
Edit: ah, I'm not the only one not getting it then. Good to know :D
Yes, same in Venice. Here we have created a concrete patch with the rail embedded. This means that standard pavement machine cannot rework the street surface. Now streets are all bumpy. For what I've been told the manufacturer also stopped the production of the repair pieces so it's now very expensive fix those things. One big, really big annoyance is the noise they make. Why on earth are they that loud especially at 70km/h? They go up to 95dB... you need ear protection!
Why they make crackling sound when they brake?
One of the worse implementation of the tram I've ever seen. Rail switching not always works, so they re designed some stops.
Trolleys would have been a better choice...
Not many people areware how fast technology has advanced over the years.
Nowerdays computers make it possible to alow much more controll of movement of individual wagons. The "bus" has 3 segments. Quite long. With modern controls, just 50 cm extra track with is needed. But back in the days it would have been more than a meter, depending on the curve radius.
You simply couldn´t drive such a long bus in the old city without tracks.
So until the tracked tramlike bus started, only normal bussed were possible, reaching their capicity limit. Electronics were not be fit jet, to allow longer busses to be controlled trough low radius curves. Nowerdays long busses can be controlled savety through low radius curves.
But around the millenium change, you needed "mechanical help" to keep a long bus on track. Inside the old town. Of course, on the peripherie without low radius curves, you never need a track.
Or simply said: In the area with low radius curves you need something to keep a long bus on track. For the time the desission was made, this had to be done mechanicly. And now it can be done electronicly.
A tram - or a "tram like bus" - has more capacity than a normal bus. Wich also means less drivers needed per passenger. At the moment.
In 30 years people will look at our time and think about all the weird transportation systems. With self controlled cabs without any drivers, 2 or 4-seat mini "busses", maybe some bigger ones for groups/sightseeing. Why busses / trams at all? Simply the technology is not ready jet. But it might in 30 years. But even if it is ready earlyer, this does not matter - as you do not abandon a working system before you need replacement.
There is ONE point in favor of the system.
SUBWAY/ SURFACE
In Boston MA, Philadelphia & Pittsburg PA and a few other locations USA (and other nations) there are street car/tram lines that run as subways downtown and then on streets with cars. These have trolly disadvantage on streets.
But this would have bus movability above ground, and the in tunnels on track no need for steering, allowing for faster operations.
The latter issue is why Seattle which once ran trolleybus in tunnel needing steerable TBs was converted to railed vehicles.
@@AlbertBenajam-ww1db yeah that would be an actual legitimate use case... But here we don't have a subway lol. And the city is renovating the lines and adding a whole lot of new ones. Public transportation is great but... Why trams? Lol
My country Indonesia should learn from this. We buy ART from china while other country already experienced it as trash, and decided to stop using it
Hello, I'm from Nancy and it's very weird to see the landscape I see every day in an video in English. Thank you for covering our weird tram !
If I'm not mistaken, there are at least 3 more reasons for the scrapping of the tram :
1) It's too small.
It becomes very crammed during peak hours and it is sometimes impossible to get on (even though there is sometimes still space on the inside, people usually gather were there are pole to hang on to and so there is often a lot of unused space)
2) The trams are too old.
If I'm not mistaken they have no spare parts anymore so they have to cannibalise their own trams to keep the other ones running. They have been breaking down a lot recently and the slope to get to Brabois is especially hard on them. One engine caught on fire, two trams were almost cut in half and so on.
3) It's very loud, especially when stopping. You can hear it from ~ 150 meters away.
There is also another reason I'd like to mention but I'm not too sure about this one. The only source I've got is from someone who did a study on this as a project in a local engineering school. If I remember correctly the soil of Nancy is awful (it used to be a swampy area) leading to countless repairs of the rail.
Moi aussi ça fait bizarre de voir un anglophone parler de notre ville
What a fancy looking bus in Nancy.
What a treat to hear the Transport Tycoon theme song!
Would you believe I go so caught up in your fantastic rendition of the song that I didn't pay attention to a single word you said the first time around? Well, no harm in going back and watching it twice 😁Carry on! 👌🏼
I need to play it right now. Fortunately openTTD exists.
I love all the little Easter eggs Tim sneaks in with the music.
@@EinChris75 I think I’ll have to do the same. OpenTTD has “given” me many years and tiny reminders like this keep me coming back!
That Song just made my day. Could not understand a single word after starting the theme.
@@BeanyFfm I am suffering from the same affliction!!
En 4 ans d'études à Nancy j'ai jamais compris pourquoi le tram était comme ça. Et c'est un anglais qui me donne la réponse, je suis abasourdi. Très bonne vidéo, sinon un petit oubli : en été le tram prend régulièrement feu dans la montée, ça à toujours son charme
Ahah ! Dommage que j'y suis allé en hiver...
Ptdrrrr mais nan, jure
Chuis mort
Au-delà des explications fournies par Tim, c'est surtout le politique qui explique "pourquoi le tram était comme ça".
Je l'explique ici en commentaire de cette vidéo : th-cam.com/video/CcLZwLiQGo0/w-d-xo.html&lc=UgwLf_Du5ppsHVmX7-B4AaABAg.9aX7cR8S_R09ktGataG2IW
WTF ! Il prend feu dans la montée ?
C'est pas un poil dangereux cette histoire ? xD
@@RinceCochon
Et les caisses du tram se brisaient au niveau des articulations.
Sans parler d'autres sacrées failles de sécurité qui font dire que c'est un miracle qu'il n'y ait pas eu de mort en 22 ans!
Most of the video, I'm thinking "that's so dumb". But then when I see the advantages listed, I think, "hey actually that makes a lot of sense." Making the trolleys both more wheelchair-accessible and using much less road space are actually very good reasons to keep the the system as is.
Easily one of the best YT channels out there.
It's like a box of chocolates, you just never know what you're going to get.
As someone who takes the tram in Paris every day to go to work, I didn't know we had rubber wheel trams lol thanks for the information.
You're a lucky man than. I acrually took one for 2 stops last time I was in Paris, and I pity the poor people who have to use it every day.
Only in the suburbs : line T5 (Saint-Denis - Garges-Sarcelles) and line T6 (Chatillon-Montrouge - Viroflay)
I think I even saw rubber wheels on a subway but Im not sure
@@SaengerDruide02 Yes, several Metro lines in Paris have rubber tires. The Metro has stops very close together and rubber tires help it to accelerate faster.
@@SaengerDruide02 Lines 1, 4, 6, 11 and 14 use rubber wheels. Line 11 was the first line in the world to be equipped, way back in 1956. The others were retrofitted over time because the technology offers good performance. Line 14 was equipped at construction, as a automatic metro.
The french VAL system (a kind of people mover/very light metro) also uses rubber tires.
Love the transition at 2:39 😂❤
@@htilden42 you should be very happen that there is no death penalty for bad jokes ;)
@@htilden42 🤣🤣 good one
@@matsv201 That is really not a joke in Iran (or China) ... you can check for Soheil Babadi and 'Zombie Angelina Jolie' .....
Also it's terribly unreliable for a variety of reasons. One I learned from my uncle who works for the city, is that in the summer, they have to hose down the rail to cool it, because dilation makes the tram derail and it's impossible to reengage without the funnel ramp thing.
So there's no expansion gaps like a train track then, seems a bit of a design flaw.
Too hot in the summer, gets clogged with snow and stuff in winter, causes derailment with various debris in spring and fall ...
Perfect system. Keeps people busy all year round.
@@Sp4mMe infinite money glitch 💰😎
@@dave_h_8742 Eccentric public transportation solutions do tend to have design flaws.
@@Sp4mMe Sounds like something the "Deutsche Bahn" would love.,
I visited Nancy in 2000 for the first time and saw them building this. Now it’s going to be history…
Brings back memories, I lived in Nancy (Vandoeuvre, to be exact) for 7 years and took the tram many, many times.
Another thing you didn't bring up : there's a kink in the rail, just after the bridge that goes over the train station. You can see it around 6:20. Back when I lived there, the tram would often "derail" if the driver went too fast. They rebuilt that portion of the rail multiple times (I think I remember at least two) to make it shallower, but still the tram would have to slow to a crawl through that kink.
PS : that incline after Callot is STEEP. Pictures and videos don't do it justice.
At the beginning, workers had to weld the rail in the chicane every night to repair it. This was due to the fact that the guide roller was not suspended (unlike the tires) and thus inflicted colossal pressure on the rail in corners.
@@michelkuehn1745 Thanks for the insight! This is the kind of information you would expect in the video.
@@haveaseatplease you must be fun at parties
@@ant2312 Please, don't take it personal.
I'm sorry you had to live in Nancy. We commiserate with you.
Incredibly wonderful to watch your video because I did my master’s thesis exactly about this subject in 1999. I concluded back then that these kind of bus systems would not have much of a future. Well Nancy kept the TVR until 2023 which is still a performance of some sort. Your video gave me a big smile. Thank you!
Is there anyway to read your thesis online?
@@i1a2159 That’s unfortunately a problem. It was written in Dutch, so it would have to be translated. Secondly I’m not sure if there’s a digital copy somewhere. So, not happening soon.
You and Cat make a good team. 👍
they are banging with each other so yea of course they are
Cat is adorable.
Omg is that the woman from France24??
@@ericsmith3996 Yes. I knew the face but couldn't think where I'd seen her before. I haven't watched France24 for a while but Google tells me she still works there.
@@ericsmith3996 oh wow!
Cat is great. Keep her around.
Yeah. I was surprised nobody commentet on his most obvious innovation. Only tech nerds here 😅
Omg is that the woman from France24??
If you ever end up in Australia, check out the Adelaide O-Bahn. It's very similar but it's more like a standard bus that runs on rails in sections, plenty of pedantry to be had
Also, might be interesting to point out that Nancy didn't choose to remove the tram and put a trolley bus instead only because it was the "best" of the two options, but because they HAD to : the company that made the tram (bombardier) stopped making replacement parts for it... which is kind of a problem when your tram is 10 years old 😅
Indeed! (If you look closely, this is on the list of "advantages" of the trolleybus)
@@TheTimTraveller You missed a great opportunity to talk to the engineers responsible for the Nancy public travel services. They are lovely people who would have corrected the numerous assumptions you made.
This is very funny to read as someone who works at a private American railroad that regularly has to source parts for engines made by a company that went under 50 years ago
Merci, after watching the film, I couldn't understand why they are being replaced. Now I do - unavailability of replacement parts.
Why would only the original manufacturer be able to produce spare parts for this vehicle? Does it involve the kind of anti-repair trickery that Apple laptops and John Deere tractors are known for? (Such as requiring some special software to be used for pairing the replacement part with the system after each repair?)
I can hear Reece saying "Gadgetbahn"
Agreed, with Reece we wouldn't even get through the intro before the word gadgetbahn was used
Yep, Reece has a knack for finding Gadgetbahnen.
6:54 this is pretty common on many trolleybus systems. The Arnhem trolley buses - at least the Daf ones running from the 60s till the 90s - were delivered with a small engine that allowed a top speed of 50km/h. Either for use when the power line goes down and you gotta move it out of the way, but also for returning to depot.
I wonder if the new trolleybuses will have batteries instead of a diesel engine
@@petereverett1455 They do in San Francisco
In Wellington, New Zealand, our trolleybuses were retrofitted with a rack if batteries on the roof. Enough for around 5 minutes running, so if the power failed or they needed to detour, they weren't stranded in the middle of the road.
The newer Arnhem trolleybusses still have them! They're noisy though.
I forgot whether they went through with it, but Arnhem was going to get trolley buses with decent batteries to enable flexibility on the far ends of the route, only needing electrification at the center section. Which then also makes a diesel engine unnecessary.
This was so so so much fun to watch! Brilliantly made, as always! 🤩
Thanks for coming to Nancy on such a short notice and making this awesome video!
PS: and sorry I forgot to mention it's free on weekends 😬
In fairness, the machine shouldn't have let them buy tickets if it was free!
I lived and studied in Nancy for 3 years. And this video brings back to me so much memories from that period. I remember taking this tram to go anyware in Nancy and its suburbs. Very sad to hear that they'll be scrapping it up.
The transport tycoon music at 3:45. Ahhhhhhhhh. Love it.
Great exposé on a system I never heard of! & your friend Cat is delightful!
I think there are two more very positive points of the bustram. The rail. The rail makers the road as a tramlines and this makes it more obvious you cant park there because the tram can't move out the way and people are more hesitant to block the tram than a bus. The other. The rail. It shows for pedestrians and other drivers that there is big traffic to expect and the rail makes it obvious were to expect it. Still the negatives are huge.
I guess they could leave the rails in and just have them there as a placebo
That is sort of one of the main motivation that is used for cities that want to install trams in stead of busses. Personally i think it's just a waste of money. A tram cost 5 times more than the same size bus. And it cost mot to maintain.
There also exist 32m busses with self guidning rear axels that all follow the same line.
And where it's needed there also is busses that follow a magnet line in the road that just automatically is turned on when you run over it and that is impossible to detail from.
As well as inductive power supply.... but I have not seen it on a comersial bus, just prototype and trams. One system in Germany have it.
There is a frensh city that have 3 rail trams that have the power in the middle, like a to train.
ever heard of the rail effect?
Hence why the tram was honking at that red/maroon car parked on the left with hazards flashing
@@matsv201 The only 3rd rail system which places them in the middle of the tracks outside the trams of Bordeaux and similar system is the London Underground and these are for the _return_ current, not the live current and third rails for live currents (including LU) are typically placed to the sides of the tracks.
Hi Tim from Spain. I liked trolley buses, they were quiet, efficient and smooth.
Smoothness really depends on the driver. 😄 Electric motors are famously torque-y, so if a driver really puts his foot down, the acceleration is much more intense than with a regular (diesel) bus. Can be a bit of an issue if some people are still walking to their seats.
I lived in Nancy for several years, and never realized how unique the tram was. Merci de faire découvrir ma ville sur youtube !
I live nearby Caen, Normandy (Northwestern part of France for those not familiar with our geography) and we had such trams for inner city and downtown commute for years.
We replaced the original 2 lines by traditional trams, which are awesome, and added a new tram line to address massive traffic issues we face in the city nowadays (my daily 22km trip from my home in southern rural area to my workplace in northern inner suburbs takes up to 1hr during rush hours)
The old tram was a nightmare. In the last year of exploitation, we faced 700+ failures, leading to MASSIVE problems and people not trusting our local and suburban transit system...
Edit : As a side note, Caen respects road hierarchy and modern planning concepts, with some really nice neighbourhoods inspired by UK garden cities. Our main problem is arterial sizing and mass transit cluttering (too many bus lanes converge into downtown and lead to busline congestion) coupled with heterogeneous suburban transit options (some suburbs have too many options which doesn't always make sense, while some other suburbs are badly connected and not really walkable and require car usage for nearly anything)
The TVR belongs to a category of trains called "gadgetbahn". These are trains, also in an extended sense, that seem fancy, high-tech or innovative, but are not, as they bring more disadvantages than advantages. Another good example is monorails.
Everything is gadgetbahn before it's common.
I would not call monorail a gasgetbahn, just because we in Europe dont understand it don't make it bad. Monorail got very good economy and quite high speed. It sort of have the speed of a Subway but the cost of a tram line.
A lot of the appeal of monorails in the US was as an El for nimbys. Also if you're trying to make an El it is generally cheaper to build.
@@matsv201 The modern monorail is a gadgetbahn because it is expensive to build, maintain and cumbersome. The switches are very susceptible to wear, cumbersome. These monorails always have to be built away from roads, as their thick rails and the space needed around the rail are not compatible with integration into the road network. Even saying that they are built for long distances instead of railway lines, i.e. not as a replacement for trams and metros, is almost hare-brained, because all systems of this kind are not standardised and are subject to patents. This means that if a city or region chooses a manufacturer, spare parts can only be purchased from that manufacturer, or the trains and rails can only be repaired by that manufacturer. After the construction of such a system, they can charge lunar prices for further services such as repair, as there is no longer any competition due to patents. In normal rail transport, there are many manufacturers of rails, wagons, locomotives and multiple units (trains without locomotives). There is a lot of competition and more compatibility, and there are standards. Standardisation also drives down costs, as there are standardised machines for standardised parts.
In retrospect, the Wuppertal suspension railway and its prototypes were and still are gadget railways. The fact that this suspended monorail is still in operation and was restored at record speed after the Second World War is due to the unique situation in which Wuppertal finds itself. The subsoil here is too rocky for an underground railway, the city too narrow and elongated, as it is located in a valley, and a lot of traffic has to squeeze through this eye of a needle and thus through the city. Therefore, this was the only sensible solution. Wuppertal is the only place, where this type of train is not gadget.
If this little summary of why monorails are gadgetbahnen that are completely overrated doesn't convince you, I can only recommend the many videos on TH-cam that highlight the various aspects of such a system. All these videos come to the conclusion that normal trams and railways are still the best solution.
@@DJKLProductions have you any numbers for the cost of monorail? Or are you guessing? Most monorail system I seen are on par or cheaper than tram. Specially of its is switchover monorail system that is very cheap.
@@matsv201 th-cam.com/video/mGOwlER9V1Y/w-d-xo.html
There is another advantage of a rail-guided system that isn't immediately obvious: predictability.
This is basically what makes trams easy to integrate into pedestrian zones while buses are a nightmare to mix with other uses. The speed, acceleration and direction of a tram can be easily calculated even by people who have never been on a tram - and there are definitive "safe zones" where the tram positively CAN'T ever be. This is not the case with buses.
For city planners it is actually the second most important reason to built a tram over BRT (after capacity).
There are other guided.busses that use magnets (under the road) and they typically either have tarmack in a other color or concrete bricks for the wheels to not have the problem with the wheels destroying the surface.
Never seen as many pedestrians run blindly in front of traffic than with trams.
@@heliofaros1344 Yet, they are the safest way of public transport that shares it's space, so... 🤷♂
Not really sure if that’s still applies to TVR. Apparently it came off its rail so many times that it actually had to operate in steering mode, thus it could potentially end up in places nobody was expecting it to. They should have gone with a regular tram instead, just like most other cities in France.
Ever heard of bus only malls? Yeah ok
Merci pour ce (presque) hommage à notre (presque) tram !
Abonné assidu à la chaîne, c'est un petite joie de voir ces paysages familiers et d'entendre ce bruit si caractéristique du TVR au démarrage.
Thanks for the memories! I lived in the city for four years, and remember thinking the tram looked cute on it's way to the depot. Had no clue it was so rare!
Ahhh so much souvenirs… even it came out it was considered rubbish… The best part is the location where they had to make the road rougher on the hill because it couldn’t handle how steep it is 😂
What is not mentioned is how reliable those “trams” were 😂
For me, I just can't call it a tram. You can tell they wanted to have people think of it as a tram but were trying so hard because in their hearts they knew it wasn't one. 😅
Well. Its clearly a trolly bus that just happen to be guided.
I would call these “rubber trams”.
It might appear like a tram to the casual observer, but it's a trolley bus with some extra complexity. To be fair the cornering thing Tim mentioned is valid; A big trolleybustrain™ wouldn't bother with the corner and possibly squish a few children.
That said, a trolley bus would probably make more sense, for reasons described in the video.
@@igotes it's possible to articulate a train of road trailers such that they all follow the exact same line.
The luggage carts on station platforms are an example.
@dougaltolan3017 How? I guess you could engineer the links so they conform to a certain curve. I don't understand what you mean about luggage carts on station platforms. What sort of station and in which country? Those things don't have to navigate around city centres, they mostly go in straight lines like trains.
Thank you for making another awesome video Tim! Love following your adventures!
The Nancy bus trams🚊have a Mr Bean-style about them🚊
I love the Transport Tycoon music! 3:36
I noticed that too
Thanks for recording the Nancy tram..brings up my memories at Universite de Lorraine
Just brilliant, as always - we can always rely on you, Tim, for a good laugh and some serious infotainment. Many thanks.
Fun fact: 'trams' in Swedish means nonsense.
But on the other side "spårvagn" in english... is nonsens ;)
@@matsv201 orwhat we in sweden call a skiftnyckel.
That's perfect, because they ARE nonsense.
@@AlfaGiuliaQV Björn is having a dusch
@@matsv201 Usually I have no idea what Swedish words mean, but this sounds like Spuhrwagon, although not a real word in german, still makes sense as a tram, neat!
This is the gadgetbahn to end all gadgetbahns. It will be hard for future attempts to outdo it. Informative and funny video, Tim!
Actually, this could be developed even further to only run inside a special tunnel dug underneath the city. The tunnel would naturally be too narrow and platforms too short to suit any other kind of public transport vehicle👌
It's true, the failure of the TVR probably killed the rubber-tyres tramway...
This vehicle clearly is missing continuous track so it can cross a muddy field if necessary. No road building required.
@@Zraknul Rails are still necessary to avoid a wide runway and for better operating speed.
@@le_traminot_nanceien I meant tracks like a tank or earth moving equipment tend to have.
It would be completely unnecessary besides absolute fringe cases.
Great, I'd like to try out the TVR this weekend for myself. Thanks for suggesting it
It is almost an Adam Something video. I enjoyed it a lot. Thank you for putting in the Transport Tycoon music.
Two years ago, I spent a couple of days in Nancy, just because I really wanted to ride this unique weird system. It was a great time. I traveled the whole route 5 or 6 times in several days.
But of cause I also visited other sights in Nancy. It is really a very beautiful city.
Also, St. Nicolas du Port is worth a visit, a big cathedral in a small village, a few kilometers away from Nancy.
Now I wish I had. I spent a long weekend in Nancy, and absolutely agree that it's a gorgeous city with some fantastic history, but to my shame I never rode a TVR.
I live in Nancy, and I take this "Tram" quite regularly. It would have been funny bumping into to you on my way to work, last week ^^'
(I missed you, dammit :/)
It's funny to see so familiar background on a YT video ^^'
I might have taken this Tram for the last time today, getting back from work (if I don't take it tomorrow for some shopping, not sure yet). Your video is a fun way for me to celebrate this last time !
Thank for the video!
its the last chance to ride it, so maybe you should check out its entire route before its gone..
Fomer stutent in Nancy here: In my 4 years there, I saw one "tram" in a roundabout, one on the motorway, multiple derailments and I already went down that Vandoeuvre slope in tram in reverse gear. The diesel motor was actually also used way more often than just to go to the depot.
An interesting and amusing video about a unique system. I can see the logic of a transit mode that self-steers on congested streets and to loading platforms, but also has the ability to run without the guide rail. Too bad it was derailed by other factors.
3:37 Thank you for transporting me back to the 90s - I'd recognise that music anywhere!
Finally a video on something which doesn't end up on my list of places to visit. Rode this horribly uncomfortable thing earlier this year and now finally understand why they got a steering wheel and license plate, it isn't a tram.
I haven't laughed as hard at a TH-cam video in a long time as I did at the plot twist that all the magic non-trams need to have a diesel engine to get to the depot 🤣
Same, honestly. I saw the map, saw where the depot was, and was just "Oh no... they didn't..."
I remembrer a day where I was getting home and then suddenly, the whole power in the tram was down. When you are at a stop, the door's opened automatically, but you could also push a button to open the door. But without power, the door couldn't be opened, there was no light and nobody made a sound, it was silent as if everyone just died. And then the diesel engine started (I was at the back of the tram), it was deafening.
So good I watched it twice... Love Cat (Kat?)... your amazing narration was both entertaining and informative. Well done!
Cat seems like a very nice travel companion. :)
Lovely video again Tim, really enjoyed it, thanks! It must be such a delight to have someone like Cat to aaccompany you on these silly adventures
Nancy had a vision: "This will make The Tim Traveler promote our city!"
Great Video!
Another interesting story about the TVR: Just a few weeks after the grand opening of line 1, it had to be closed for almost a year to improve the operational safety. As it turned out, the trams had a high risk of derailing, which resulted in some damaged trams and trolley poles as well as injured passengers. After that, strict speed limits were introduced - especially in tight curves, where the TVR should have been faster than a regular bus.
I've been in Nancy two weeks ago. Though being quite interesting to watch, the TVR was very slow and uncomfortable.
you'd think that if it derailed it could just start being a bus again. but then again a tram that sometimes becomes a bus with no warning sometimes is not much easier to drive than an actual bus.
There was only one accident that resulted in injury, the majority of the others were electrical insulation faults and sensors that switched on unexpectedly. The problems took a year to fix. It was not a question of derailments but of problems with the rear axle which became uncontrollable! The incidents had occurred in unguided areas.
loved the ""transport tycoon" sound. It remember me a lot of memorys.
Yay ! I m from Nancy ! I didnt knew all those things, but you can add to the advantages that there is many "dissengage stations" if the tram needs to make detour for any reasons (constructions/repairs on his tracks, roads block by one of our famous french strikes,a ccidents...). The Nancy tram was considered as one of the slowest in France, and the most noisy one.
A "fun" thing is that only few days after it stopped the tracks became orange of oxydation by lack of friction, making the tracks looks a decade old in less than a week ! Great video, so glad you came here :)
This is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. I absolutely love it.
Oh, I like this content.
Now, as a Belgian, I am sworn to defend this system ( I previously didn't know about ) and say I can think of a few more reasons to have one:
- Electric bus/tram, thingy circa 2002! Well, you have trolleybusses, but they lack capacity ( so far I can remember the ones from Ghent, back in the day. They're gone now )
- New trams have a WAY bigger capacity than a new bus, and this seems to combine the two. I'm not sure you can find many skillful chaufeurs to drive a 3 sectioned bus in the streets of Nancy.
AND!
No, that's it. I'm out.
Also, they could've electrified the route to the depot and/ or have a maintenance vehicle tow the tram/bus/thingy. Every city with such a tramline has such a towing vehicle.
I love your content, thank you ^^
Nancy does have a towing vehicle (Renault GBH) but it is not used to return to the depot, it goes through a normal road.
The drivers in Geneva manage:
www.sfu.ca/person/dearmond/phono/Geneve-781.jpg
Thanks for making me laugh.
Thanks for another fun video, and Cat should do more cameos 🙂
You guys make a good team.
As a Canadian, I weep every time someone mentions Bombardier😢
As a swedish person.. same
@@matsv201 Why? The C30 (new Stockholm subway trains) seem pretty nifty to me...
As an English person, same
Thanks for the tip-off! My brother and nephews got to visit it yesterday on its last day of action. My nephew tells me it's also the only tram ever made with a steering wheel!
I'm born and lived all my life in France (Lyon, Nantes and Rennes mainly) but never heard about this tram-bus before you came to Nancy ^^
Thx for the visite et bon voyage ;)
Wait. The tracks are used only to guide the bus. It's the tires which do the driving, right? Then why do the track stop at any point? You can still go uphill and keep it guided by the central track.
Good question.
I think they accidentally admitted that they really didn't need the track. It was cheaper not to build it there (as it would have been cheaper to not build it anywhere.)
To go on a steep hill a tram could use a rack rail.
There is a tram line in Italy, Trieste-Opicina, in the city of Trieste, that to go up hill uses a rack rail. It's very peculiar because the tram cab (an old fasfioned model from the '30s) can't get on by its own and it's couppled by a tiny 'tractor'.
To remain in France there is Lyon's metro line C. A former rack rail tram now 'upgraded' to a metro line.
The route travelled up the hill by the tram is used by road vehicles also though, whose tyres would be punctured by the rack, & the rack would also trip over cyclists & be a foot-piercing hazard for crossing pedestrians
I understand now why they want to replace the system, but it is still by default a negative Nancy move.
You know, I m actually someone who lives in Nancy and first I was surprised to see an english video with "Nancy tram" in ils title. With your video I learned some détails I didn t knew. It s a great video by the way 👍
Thanks to you, i now understand what was all of this Tram stuffs in a City i've been in for 3 years and known for more than 15.
This Translohr system is quite famous in the Veneto region of Italy, which has two similar systems, one being in Padua and the other one has two routes between Mestre and Venice.
So sad that this type of transportation will be gone shortly. Seemed so nice. It might be cheaper than a conventional tramway, but more expensive in terms of maintenance, which is continuos
"So why, in all of Frenchdom, did they decide to run it on a rail??"
Queue Transport Tycoon theme music. 🤣7:08
Love it. And I'm laughing at the music that started playing at 3:37 and 5:51! Very apt!
Im happy that someone is talking ab my city and ab our weird bus, thanks for it!
Trollybusses are great in city’s. Silent, quick, No Air pollution. Arnhem is afaik the last city in the Netherlands who have them. Normal busses with diesel engines are easier to manage, but for the people living there trolleybuses are much nicer
yes, i’ve only lived in one place with trolleybusses and i miss them! so much quieter and less stinky, especially on hilly routes
Which is why Nancy is only getting rid of the silly part and will replace them with much more sensible normal Trolley busses
But also just electrical buses, and they seem to do quite well (and without the ugly wires.)
There exist serial hybrid busses that is very low noise level.
@@incalescent9378 There are a lot of downsides to batteries (that aren't much talked about because they detract from the cool new tech). Overhead wires are fundamentally superiour technology wherever they aren't non-viable.
Basically, any battery with high enough energy density to be usable instead of an internal combustion engine or overhead wires is also an absolute nightmare safety wise. (ever seen what happens when an electric car decides that being on fire would be a great idea? Goes up in seconds, burns for hours, can't be put out short of burrying the car in sand, so it just gets cordened off until it burns out... now consider that a bus needs more, bigger, batteries of the same type.)
Now, for the situations where it would be useful for a trolley bus that usually runs on overhead wires to be able to briefly opperate independently from those wires, much lesser batteries (made with much less dangerous materials) or well designed capacitor banks will do the job well enough with no real problems. Enough to avoid the complex nonsense that is overhead wires at the depot or major intersections between multiple tracks (though you should really still run wires Too the depot, even if shunting and switching within the depot doesn't lend itself well to them).
Also? The wires aren't ugly. When you're actually There going about your life and not actively looking for something to complain about, they blend in, often to the point of functional invisibility, with no problem. Well, I suppose if your living room window is exactly the right height in a multistory building it might be of some limited concern (though, trade off, birds like hanging out on wires, so if you like birds, it's possibly a win.)
Now, the pole etc. that hold the wires up Can be ugly.... or they can be really nice and significatnly add to the character of the street, exactly the same as the poles holding various street lights and the like (heck, they can be the same poles!)
I think that the Belgian bus company Van Hool also makes a double bendy bus, where the tyres of the rear parts of the bus exactly follow the tyre tracks of the first part of the bus. I believe they are used in the Dutch town Utrecht.
There’s several companies that do this with Busses beyond a certain length. However, this means the rear axle has to be steered which makes the vehicle more complicated and harder to maintain. I believe with the TVR the steering part was done by the guide rail alone and thus simplified it a lot. Plus the turn radius apparently is still significantly smaller with a guide rail, leading to an easier integration into the city. Same with crawling onto platforms for step-free access. I’m not against trolley busses or double-articulated busses but I do think Nancy should have gone the Caen route and replace this system with a conventional tram.
They are also in use here in Belgium, driving from Brussels Airport - Vilvoorde - UZ Jette
were plans they could be used on the ringroad of Leuven not sure if anything of that is true ..
That "problem" steep hill doesn't look too bad. As for conventional trams not being able to go up steep hills, the cities of Lisbon and Sheffield might have something to say about that!
These trams are light one-box trams, we are talking about real long and heavy trams, and these are not adapted to a slope of 13%! Moreover, the mayor of a city (a bit stupid) wanted a tramway but no rail in his city to let the cars pass...
@@le_traminot_nanceien Bombardier Cityrunners work just fine on the 11.6% up the Pöstlingberg in Linz/Austria. The Vossloh Tramlinks in Gmunden/Austria manage the 10% incline there as well. So modern multi-segment vehicles seem to have no problem with those slopes (and why would they? They have vastly more motor power and far better brakes than the old 2-axle cars in Lisbon).
Also: if the slope on Av. Jean Jaures in Nancy really is a problem, just build the route along Av. du General Leclerc, which is less steep (only about 5% on average according to Google Maps, which is absolutely no problem for a tram).
@@stephanweinberger Precisely, it was not possible to build on this route (yet the old tramway passed there), and the Bombardier also had a cost advantage when buying!
Always a pleasure to listen to premium Simon Pegg
I'm a big fan and I literally live in Nancy lol, what a surprise to see you post this video
I knew it was only a matter of time before you'd make a video about these! My experience on them was not too different from a regular trolleybus, save for the turns. Certainly a unique piece of transport infrastructure, but one with too many disadvantages compared to a regular trolleybus (or tram) line. After finding out that Caen got rid of theris a couple of years ago, I knew that Nancy would sooner or later come to such a decision as well.
Munich has a tram line on Montgelasstraße between Mauerkircherstraße and Ismaninger Straße that is pretty steep, and the trams don't't seem to have problem climbing up to Herkomerplatz. Same with a few tram lines in Stuttgart.
obligatory "German engineering" remark
I'm pretty sure that the line in Stuttgart is a rackrailway, with a middle rail with grooves that the train can pull on using a cog to get more grip. Not a normal tram though definitely a better system.
Maximum incline of tram is 10%, and that is not maximum due to friction, but due to law. A tram could go about 14-15% on steel wheels.
The reason the maximum is 10% have to do with passenger. Any steeper, and wheelchairs and trolyes will fall over.
Mainz: Let me introduce the Gaustraße.
@@ordinaryorca9334 OP mentioned "a few lines", not "a line" which implies the Stadtbahn, not the rack railway.
Enjoyed this Tim, only one thing: the "trams can't do hills" thing was vastly oversold by the Bombardier bonb squad sales team to the gang in Frenchville. Pittsburgh, USA had a conventional streetcar (Amerikansky for tram) route called the Fairview Line that had 14% grades (and maybe a little more). And Pittsburgh is pretty close to mountainous, featuring a pair of inclines opposite downtown and a tunnel off of one of the river bridges. They even get snow regularly. That line ran for years, using nothing but conventional streetcars. The lines coming up out of the three streetcar tunnels in Chicago that crossed under the river were also notably steep. They were likely a grade 12% or more, and those tracks were always wet.
Things like the Nancy nonsense are not trams, they are a bus pretending to be a trolley. A Fake trolley, if you will. That would make them a Folley.
All the trams mentioned here are pulled by cables. This requires a heavy and expensive infrastructure, and Nancy can't afford it. We are talking about basic trams, with motor traction. A standard tram is limited to 10%! If you come back and give me the example of the Mont Blanc tramway, it works with a rack and pinion.
Theres another advantage, which is maybe often overlooked, and that is that having a rail makes it more "permanent". It more visual, people see it and know theres a tram/bus and therefor will look to use it. Being more permanent also makes it so that it cant simply be cancelled or removed, like busses and trolleybusses. More physical infrastructure comes at a higher cost (generally) so you cant justify ripping it out as easily, making the system more resilient against policy changes.
Had never expected to see Cat on this channel, one of my top 5 news presenters
My gadgetbahn senses are tingling. If Nancy thought a tram couldn't handle an incline in wet weather, they should have asked San Francisco for a second opinion (ETA I'm talking about the electric trams, not the cable cars).
EDIT: I'm also not sold on the cost angle, since that only applies to upfront construction costs, whereas trams can handle significantly more traffic relative to maintenance costs in comparison to buses, in addition to a much smoother ride.
Or they could keep much cheaper trolley buses if they don't have enough riders to justify a tram. Gadgetbahn is almost always a bad idea...
well to be fair, san francisco's cable cars are... pulled by cables, they're specifically designed to handle inclines
San Francisco’s trams don’t have tracks they’re cable cars, literally cable pulling the cars underneath the street. Unless you’re talking about the Muni Metro they don’t have that steep of inclines and more so gradual.
Or Sheffield - we have conventional trams with a 10% gradiant, and the vehicles were specified such that one tram could push another one up that gradiant if required to rescue a failed vehicle.
@@aburrki6732 I'm not talking about the cable cars, I'm talking about the electric trams, and specifically the section of J Church that goes through Dolores Park. And back when E Union and B Geary existed, they managed hills decently as well. Not as steep as Nob Hill like the cable cars navigate, but decently. Not to mention the hills formerly navigated by the Los Angeles trams (Yellow Cars).
Actually I'm from Nancy and I heard that they wanted to build a cable car before choosing to put these trams. You also forgot to mention that this line is really fast compared to other buses ;)
The cable car idea has already been abandoned!
Sad to have missed it but certainly an interesting idea. Sometimes you just need to try things to know they don't work :)
Brilliant. . Merci 👍👍
transport tycoon music! Love it! I think I'll play openttd today!
A fascinatingly quirky, very-French view of life. Thank you for finding and documenting this system. Slightly-reminiscent of the runner-tyred trains under Montreal in Canada.
Same central rail/rubber tyre trams in Clermont Ferrand - except they don’t go ‘hors piste’ … except on their official opening day when the inaugural tram fell off the central rail!
Glad I didn't read 'horse piss'
This reminds me of my local city of Arnhem, which has normal Trolleys (one of the largest network in Europe), with some fun history involving a problem with hills (yes in the Netherlands), Germans blowing up the old tram infrastructure. And in the near future they're going to run quite far out (all the way to Wageningen) on Batteries which will charge of the wire while in the city centre.
The old trolleys had diesel engines, and was always weird seing them drive by with all the noise and smells of a small not efficient diesel engine
Ah yes, the hills. As a fellow Arnhem resident, I'd dearly like to invite anyone saying that the Netherlands is all flat to come to Arnhem and walk up Monnikensteeg. That should change their mind.
Having watched a lot of RMTransit 'gadgetbahn' is a good way to describe it, something that looks fancy and modern (and even futuristic) but in reality doesn't offer anything over existing systems.
I live near Nancy and am a regular visitor. I had no idea this was about to happen. Thank you for the video.
nice looking city. thank-you.
They’re a good match for the French Metro trains that have rubber tyres, which I dearly hope TFL would adopt so I can avoid hearing damage from riding the Tube, particularly the Central line and even more specifically, Bank. I still remember being mind blown when I first saw the French trains and the joy of their quietness.
The rubbing of rubber tyres against the guideway makes a lot of noise in tunnels too though I remembered, & as rubber isn't as rigid as steel, rubber-tyred trains will face more body roll than steel-wheeled ones
Those rubber tyred vehicles have much higher rolling friction and are really only useful in hilly places.