That was a fine demonstration, Mark. FF is great. Stir in some D min (AKA "D max"), balance the D min gain to hit D max a hair before the sticks (setpoints) hit their stops on your quickest snaps, and the quad becomes telepathic without overshooting. If anyone's listening ;-) it might be helpful to have the option to set separate D min gains for the roll and pitch axes... Thank you, as always, to all the BF Dev's.
@ 8:05 "cinematic and freestyle should love it too" - I agree. I think the most confusing part of feed forward, is the "transition" setting. When I was just beginning to fly I had several instances trying to do a yaw spin, where my quad suddenly yawed way more than I wanted it too, and I panicked, and wound up crashing (flying LOS). I didn't understand why that happened, I thought it was a desync that caused me to lose control, but I eventually figured out that it was the FF kicking in when I got too aggressive on the stick, and suddenly I understood WHY I heard the quad speed up so much and I had a "lightbulb" moment. For a while, I flew with FF amount set to 0 on all 3 axis. As I learned a little more, I eventually added FF but the "transition" setting is what activates the FF amount and ultimately, that is what needed adjusting. A transition amount of 25 - 30% (0.25 - 0.30) is a good trigger value for me. For beginners, I don't even think that FF is even necessary. Thanks UAV Tech! Another awesome upload!
I'm doing cinematic and love FF. It also sharpens my reflexes if I screw up and need to get out of the situations and as you said... in smooth flying it's not really noticeable - running an expo of .55 now for that :)
Great video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Quetion for you, should FF be adjusted on it own or should people use the slider instead to keep value with good combination of each PID setting?
Thank you for that clear explanation. Helped me a lot I'm tuning a new build using 4.3 I'm using nightly BtfConf 10.8_4137 and Betaflight 4.3 build #2537 So far so good (even very good), but I don't know what would be the best way to work. Just go pretty much for the last build or try to understand if I should be concerned with the last merge, m aking a new build ? BTW what build are you v for this vidéo ? And last, I noticed some "interface behaviour" surprising to me, for example in copy paste some groups of commands in the CLI. Some time it take all of them, some time only part of them but after few trials all of them (without modifing the commands). I'm not sure if it's kind of bugs or any other trouble non specially BTF specific (USB com ...)nd experimentations Should I try to report somewhere, or better leaving the DEV make their great job, which will finally gave us a great BTF version. Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and experimentations
its so tricky to talk about whats a persons best FF, its a bit like mouse accelration, you use somebody elses mouse and its super slow or superfast, but its not a huge deal, you get used to it in minutes. the problem i had with ''setpoint'' was it felt like it was telepathic, i would try a very sloppy roll and it would perform a snappy and smooth out roll which was not what my shaky thumbs input... actually was a bit alarming. i've used pretty lowish FF ever since.
Okay, i fly 0 FF or EmuBoost/EBLimit. But I have tuned hard my rates especially in Emuflight. All those weights and so on. So my quad is smooth and accurate at stick centers and make my fast moves near end of stick move be axelerated, and adding some weights to the end of the movement to make my footage smoother. My setpoints and gyro are almost even, maybe have some delay on full deflection, but not so big to be uncomfortable. As i understand FF gives you the same but in a simplier way. Cos it use only gyro data and setpoint and not what you want it to behave?
Yes I guess. In BF, just use Expo in you rates to smooth out center sticks (Acrual Rates and maybe 0.6 to 1.0 for expo) and increase FF so when you move the sticks fast it boosts the motors so you don't have delay for which then you need to compensate.
What do you think of sim ff settings? Enough indication to help you find your own preferences or understand the feeling of high vs low? Also, nice update to your logo 👍🏼
@@uavtech Simulator Feed Forward settings. In velocidrone you can tweak them to get used to how those settings work. It was a big help to me early on understanding rates. I’m curious if you think it is useful in the sim for FF or not accurate to make it worthwhile.
@@uavtech hahaha that thought didn't even cross my mind! Thank you so much for the response I really appreciate it. Sidenote your 4.3 tuning content has been SUPER helpful. I really enjoy how you're straight to the point, your explanations are simple and encouraging, and I love how you demonstrate what to look / listen for when the tune has too little / too much of a particular tuning variable with real world examples.
One real misunderstanding of FF in betaflight is that bf doesnt have an actual FF and FF in bf doesnt act any faster than pterm does. If it were a real FF it would act before pterm, which it doesnt. FF happens when setpoint moves, which creates error the instant setpoint moves, which makes pterm kick in. FF and pterm act at the same exact time when you flick your stick.
It does though. This video clearly show it in the logs themself (see beginning) The magnitude of FF is much high sooner than P. With enough FF, p-term doesn't even grow at all (patreon video shows that one). Again, use more FF and P never grows (no Error). FF is a general name. It is any time you are telling the system something in advance so it can start to react prior to having to react based on PID Error. So in a sense, this is the quad version of that. If we knew or a better way to get a more advanced signal of incoming stick movements, we would do that. This is the best way thus far since it incorporates the speed of such movements as well into the magnitude of the signal. Give it an honest eval. It is the best way i have seen to track your rates available.
That was a fine demonstration, Mark. FF is great. Stir in some D min (AKA "D max"), balance the D min gain to hit D max a hair before the sticks (setpoints) hit their stops on your quickest snaps, and the quad becomes telepathic without overshooting. If anyone's listening ;-) it might be helpful to have the option to set separate D min gains for the roll and pitch axes... Thank you, as always, to all the BF Dev's.
Great information. I will apply this to my 7” build. I’ve turned off feed forward to stay smooth, I will give rc expo and raise my feed forward
Awesome tips, Mark! 😃
Thanks a lot!!!
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Great video as always.
Thanks for explaining FF so clearly!
Thanks Mark!
@ 8:05 "cinematic and freestyle should love it too" - I agree.
I think the most confusing part of feed forward, is the "transition" setting. When I was just beginning to fly I had several instances trying to do a yaw spin, where my quad suddenly yawed way more than I wanted it too, and I panicked, and wound up crashing (flying LOS). I didn't understand why that happened, I thought it was a desync that caused me to lose control, but I eventually figured out that it was the FF kicking in when I got too aggressive on the stick, and suddenly I understood WHY I heard the quad speed up so much and I had a "lightbulb" moment.
For a while, I flew with FF amount set to 0 on all 3 axis. As I learned a little more, I eventually added FF but the "transition" setting is what activates the FF amount and ultimately, that is what needed adjusting. A transition amount of 25 - 30% (0.25 - 0.30) is a good trigger value for me.
For beginners, I don't even think that FF is even necessary. Thanks UAV Tech! Another awesome upload!
Thank you!
I'm doing cinematic and love FF. It also sharpens my reflexes if I screw up and need to get out of the situations and as you said... in smooth flying it's not really noticeable - running an expo of .55 now for that :)
great video
Excellent
Such a brilliant man🤘🤘❤️❤️👍👍✊✊
Great video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Quetion for you, should FF be adjusted on it own or should people use the slider instead to keep value with good combination of each PID setting?
Either. I use the sliders. Easier to hold fundamental (ratios between terms) correct.
Very interesting ! like always...
where can i find the voice of your radio ?
Search for the "Amber Voice Pack" for OpenTX.
@@uavtech 🙏👍👌
Thank you for that clear explanation. Helped me a lot
I'm tuning a new build using 4.3
I'm using nightly BtfConf 10.8_4137 and Betaflight 4.3 build #2537
So far so good (even very good), but I don't know what would be the best way to work. Just go pretty much for the last build or try to understand if I should be concerned with the last merge, m aking a new build ?
BTW what build are you v for this vidéo ?
And last, I noticed some "interface behaviour" surprising to me, for example in copy paste some groups of commands in the CLI. Some time it take all of them, some time only part of them but after few trials all of them (without modifing the commands).
I'm not sure if it's kind of bugs or any other trouble non specially BTF specific (USB com ...)nd experimentations
Should I try to report somewhere, or better leaving the DEV make their great job, which will finally gave us a great BTF version.
Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and experimentations
What if you are flying with low rates with like a cinewhoop what would be a good FF starting point?
FF does not do much of anything on low rates or smooth movements so it really doesn't matter.
its so tricky to talk about whats a persons best FF, its a bit like mouse accelration, you use somebody elses mouse and its super slow or superfast, but its not a huge deal, you get used to it in minutes. the problem i had with ''setpoint'' was it felt like it was telepathic, i would try a very sloppy roll and it would perform a snappy and smooth out roll which was not what my shaky thumbs input... actually was a bit alarming. i've used pretty lowish FF ever since.
It's a bakance with your rates. It really comes down to do you want lag or not. Just a tool in the box.
What threshold does BF use to consider a "snap" move in order to enable FF? This is gold as always...
it is always active, but when you are moving the sticks slow, it is such a low value, it doesn't do anything of substance.
Okay, i fly 0 FF or EmuBoost/EBLimit. But I have tuned hard my rates especially in Emuflight. All those weights and so on. So my quad is smooth and accurate at stick centers and make my fast moves near end of stick move be axelerated, and adding some weights to the end of the movement to make my footage smoother. My setpoints and gyro are almost even, maybe have some delay on full deflection, but not so big to be uncomfortable.
As i understand FF gives you the same but in a simplier way. Cos it use only gyro data and setpoint and not what you want it to behave?
Yes I guess. In BF, just use Expo in you rates to smooth out center sticks (Acrual Rates and maybe 0.6 to 1.0 for expo) and increase FF so when you move the sticks fast it boosts the motors so you don't have delay for which then you need to compensate.
What do you think of sim ff settings? Enough indication to help you find your own preferences or understand the feeling of high vs low?
Also, nice update to your logo 👍🏼
What do you mean Sim FF?
@@uavtech Simulator Feed Forward settings. In velocidrone you can tweak them to get used to how those settings work. It was a big help to me early on understanding rates. I’m curious if you think it is useful in the sim for FF or not accurate to make it worthwhile.
Not accurate. I'm guessing a sim has the quad follow your rates exactly ( does not simulate rotational momentum)
Which log viewer are you using and / or what setting do I turn on in the betaflight blackbox explorer to get the craft example to move with the gyro?
You have to have the Accelerometer enabled when logging for it to move around.
@@uavtech hahaha that thought didn't even cross my mind! Thank you so much for the response I really appreciate it.
Sidenote your 4.3 tuning content has been SUPER helpful. I really enjoy how you're straight to the point, your explanations are simple and encouraging, and I love how you demonstrate what to look / listen for when the tune has too little / too much of a particular tuning variable with real world examples.
@@ugellin Thank you! That means a lot for you to mention that. Motivating for sure!!!
Does KISS have something like FF?
It has D-term Setpoint Weight. It boosts inputs, but not as much as FF.
Has anyone noticed the 3d quad overlay sometimes doesn't really reflect the actual attitude of the quad according to the video, or is it just me?
Yeah, the accelerometer is not the best in keeping track of straight down and that model uses that data to rotate around.
@@uavtech Got it, thanks for the great videos! I can always learn something new from your content.
One real misunderstanding of FF in betaflight is that bf doesnt have an actual FF and FF in bf doesnt act any faster than pterm does. If it were a real FF it would act before pterm, which it doesnt. FF happens when setpoint moves, which creates error the instant setpoint moves, which makes pterm kick in. FF and pterm act at the same exact time when you flick your stick.
It does though. This video clearly show it in the logs themself (see beginning) The magnitude of FF is much high sooner than P. With enough FF, p-term doesn't even grow at all (patreon video shows that one). Again, use more FF and P never grows (no Error).
FF is a general name. It is any time you are telling the system something in advance so it can start to react prior to having to react based on PID Error. So in a sense, this is the quad version of that. If we knew or a better way to get a more advanced signal of incoming stick movements, we would do that. This is the best way thus far since it incorporates the speed of such movements as well into the magnitude of the signal.
Give it an honest eval. It is the best way i have seen to track your rates available.
1st :D