Player Data Doesn't Lie | D&D vs WotC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 เม.ย. 2024
- Here’s what 9,000 D&D players really think of the game, its direction, and the company that owns it... ▶️ More below! ⏬
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#dnd #dungeonsanddragons #wotc - เกม
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In addition to the things keeping the D&D momentum high, it's also worth noting that Critical Role has ANOTHER series coming out in the form of the Mighty Nein Animated Series.
There have also been reports of Paramount wanting to make D&D inspired shows and we can't forget the appeal Dimension20 continues to bring
I did the math. 0.7% said they love WotC.
What is the % for psychopaths in society?
WotC/Hasbro really competing with GW for "most devoted fanbase that hates the publisher"
so about 62 people.
0.7% also said they never watch or read content about RPG news and current events. A tempting correlation.
@@SmileyTrilobiteI wonder what percent of that is overlapped
Why would WOTC put out a survey where "D&D" meant "fantasy TTRPG with d20s, regardless of creative team" and not "the current version of Dungeons & Dragons, brought to you by Wizards of the Coast"? That's probably why some of the results were surprising, as survey responders might have swapped back and forth on their own definition.
I think Bob was more talking about his own survey with that bit, rather than WOTC's. That said, as much as I do love to think of all those other games as "D&D" in all the ways that matter and to say I'm "playing D&D" when I'm actually playing Shadowdark, I still answered these questions while interpreting "D&D" as "official WOTC D&D," personally.
As for the discrepancy between having recommended D&D and having recommended WOTC products, I suspect a lot of people interpreted the more general "WOTC products" question to mean "other than D&D" since we had already answered for D&D specifically. So, you know, Magic and..... whatever else WOTC makes.... that isn't D&D.
@@stewi009 A fair distinction. I do also say "D&D" when talking about playing a TTRPG with those outside the TTRPG community.
I think that treating D&D as a synonymous of TTRPG in general is a great mistake. Not only because it downright invisibilizes other works, but also gives too much exposure and credit to a single game. And then there's the linguistic confusion:
"Oh I'm playing in a new RPG table!"
"Nice! Which system are you using?"
"Pathfinder 2e"
"Oh, I'm playing in a new DnD table!"
"Nice! What edition are you guys using?"
"Oh, it's actually Pathfinder 2e"
It isn't because we evolved from fish, that we still call ourselves fishes, right?
Everyone is assuming the survey takers assumed it generically. You'll have to make a survey for the survey takers to actually find out.
@@gabriel1rodrigues2 I've seen a number of people who dislike that DnD is being treated as a general term for TTRPG, but it's actually the worst for WotC themselves. Most companies hate trademark erosion--Adobe being one of them with Photoshop as a general term for photo editing software--because it means they can't register it anymore. After this, companies can't 100% control the way the term is being used and the reputation it collects because to some extent it is considered public domain. After a long enough time people will even stop associating the actual brand to the generalized term.
I doubt this is something we can stop people from doing, so hopefully you'll at least feel better knowing that by becoming a general term is the height of visibility but also invisibility. (Example include Band-Aid, Velcro, Dumpster, Bubble Wrap, Thermos, Escalator, Chapstick, Popsicle, TV Dinner, and many more.) And it's also a way of taking WotC's trademark away from them.
I strongly disagree with the idea that "DnD" is a broad category of games. It does all of those other games a huge disservice, essentially ensuring WotC's game is considered the default heroic fantasy TTRPG.
yeah but at least in my friend circle and other people I know it's the Face of TTRPGs, like how people call every soda Coke.
Not even WotC's game is the entirety of D&D, though. It's been, like, eight different games, _officially._ In the early days people absolutely just called their vaguely D&D-ish thing their D&D game and got mad at Gygax for trying to tell them otherwise. That isn't to say that every TTRPG is an unofficial version of D&D, but a huge chunk of them are.
So do I! But unfortunately the reality on the ground is that people largely equate the two.
Back in the day you'd sometimes see all D&D-like RPGs get referred to as FRPGs, Fantasy Role-Playing Games. So D&D itself, (early, at-least) Runequest and Tunnel & Trolls would be called FRPGs, but not all fantasy-themed RPGs were necessarily in the genre of FRPGs. I guess that ambiguity is why the term doesn't seem to be used much anymore.
I couldn't agree more! Calling Pathfinder 2e, Index Card RPG and Knave 2e, "DnD" seems like trying to simplify and dumb things down to the point of absurdity. Each of tese systems each have their own unique merits, some of which come from how they are UNLIKE DnD.
Ive recommended dnd more recently than WOC products because telling someone "i think you'd like dnd" is different than "i think its worth it for you to buy a phb". Cause like, i would actually recommend against people spending the money on books before theyve played at least a couple sessions to decide if they like it enough to commit $60+
Especially with new books coming out this year. Due to that fact, I've specifically advised against buying books now and just using the Creative Commons document until the new PHB releases.
Yes, I have been told the idea that you had to "buy a set of encyclopedia and memorize them by Saturday" was a major barrier to trying DnD. When I pointed out that to start at my table, you just need to want to play.
@@DavidSmith_W6DPS Oh yes, I definitely tell people to just start playing. If you want to make your own fully custom character, yes, you need to do some homework. But I can give you a pregen and run a game for you tonight (in theory).
I feel the exact opposite. The question didn't say the product recommendation had to be to a newbie. I'm more likely to recommend a good splat book to someone I know who already plays D&D (probably a fellow DM) than I would recommend D&D to someone unprompted. One of my players has actually just gotten into DMing for some of his other friends and asks me for advice regularly. I've recommended books to him for adventure ideas.
$60? I've picked up my whole 5th edition set for like 10-15 per book in near mint condition on Ebay and Mercrari.. people can't dump their books fast enough 😂 They printed a bazillion 5th edition books and they are generally worthless, I only bought them for a quick read a bunch of years back and will probably dump them since I prefer OSR and WFRP anyway.
I think the recommendation stat is boosted by BG3 I'm not even gunna lie!!
Good point!
BG3 I feel is the D&D IP used well. Unlike what WotC is doing with it. I really enjoy BG3 and think Larian did a fantastic job with it. But ive no desire to give WotC any money (at least directly) for the crap they have been pulling.
@@lyianx yeah, and BG3 is only held back by being DnD, not improved by it
@lyianx so... a LARGE portion of that is that it's a video game. Most people who played BG3 haven't played the prior 2, and do not play tabletops. It's a great game, I do love it, even as a permaDM of 20 years. But I say that and also say "it and tabletop games are separate things mechanically. Oceans different." You don't like that it's dnd, you like that the DM is quadcore and up. Wotc is as irrelevant as possible with bg3.
@@gene8447 >Wotc is as irrelevant as possible with bg3.
That's the best part
Hasbro bought monopoly and then decided to create one
I think they got lucky. They bought D&D (which had a monopoly prior to them acquiring it, but not when they bought it), and then D&D became a monopoly again thanks to 5e's design, Stranger Things, and Critical Role. Now they're just doing their darndest to keep it that way, which if fair for a company, just wish they were less cutthroat about it (e.g. Pinkertons, layoffs, OGL, price increases, etc.)
...with the additional irony avalanche that Charles Darrow made millions by selling Monopoly to Parker Brother's, while it had in fact been invented by Lizzie Maggie who earned I think $500 total. And by erasing this history, Darrow/PB/Hasbro have also erased the fact that Maggie invented the game as a teaching tool to show people that rentier capitalism is a terrible economic system that hurts everybody except a very small (and shrinking) number of wealthy capitalists.
@@BobWorldBuilderthe irony is that they did not want D&D when they acquired it. They wanted Pokémon which was printed by WotC at the time.
Wish I could summarize the 100% true story of Lizzie Maggie's invention of the aforementioned boardgame without having my comment auto-deleted.
Go look it up if you don't know it yet.
Literally not a monopoly. There are a ton of competitors to DND and MTG and there have been for years. Ownership of the most profitable product in market isn’t the same as a owning a monopoly
IMO, the latest update will only have result in a small bump in popularity, as the changes seem to be mostly about making existing players happier with the game. Also, the price increase of the books will shut some people out, and the lingering anger about the OGL, the Pinkertons may have a negative impact.
Those are a bunch of good points. I keep forgetting about the price increase. I think most people who know about the new books are excited for them, and WotC will be banking on new players coming in who don't know about the 2023 controversies. Time will tell!
Ultimately, the new edition will sell well. It's the only RPG (aside from Avatar???) that can get into non-specialist bookstores and supermarkets in the USA. Existing players will buy it, new players will buy it. 4e made the D&D internet super-mad back in the day but it still sold more copies than 3.5e, so it's safe to assume One/2024/5.5e/6e/whatever will do numbers too.
The open question is whether or not WotC-D&D has peaked in terms of its ability to monopolise and crowd out the hobby space. My local RPG club now has more non-D&D TTRPG tables running every week than D&D tables (and that's including Bob's broader definition of "D&D"). WotC has a monopoly on the new player pipeline into the hobby but the generation that came in (or came back) to the hobby with CR/Stranger Things has been doing 5e long enough they're now starting to get curious about branching out to other stuff - can WotC claw them all back in with the new book? I hope not - monopolies are inherently bad for the consumer/hobbyist.
WotC's big gambit is the 3D VTT with digital marketplace, subscriptions and microtransactions - get that video game "gacha" tier of money not "sell some books" money - and the future of the non-monopolised non-Hasbro-owned hobby space depends on us all continuing to get new people playing with other people at our pen-and-paper or independent VTT tables.
@@deviden13 Well, if WotC continues to pursue pipelining new players into the hobby but not prioritize creating an actually good ruleset that keeps people playing, then they're going to see this pattern where new players get sick of D&D after 1-2 years and (assuming they have the time/inclination to continue in the hobby) switch to a different game. This leads many, many executives to commit the mistake of continually "broadening their audience" because they can't retain customers, which causes a vicious cycle of questionable design choices "to draw in new players" that lead to customer turnover that leads to even more broadening of the audience that leads to even more questionable design choices, and so on and so forth. I've seen it happen in video games many times already. That market pressure naturally leads to variant copycats springing up (to wit, we've already seen many, many D&D retroclones appear)
Let's not forget the push for digitial releases over physical releases.
I suspect that you are being generous that it will increase popularity at all
I actually never even considered "D&D refers to any D&D-like game." Like others, I figured D&D meant D&D.
Relatedly, #2 & #6 could differ not necessary due to "D&D can refer to D&D-like games" but by realizing that D&D is more than the current WotC products. As long I have the books, I can run games for plenty of people without them buying anything. That's how I interpreted it and in fact I think I voted that I recommend the game recently but not the products. I often recommend the game still, but would not recommend the products at all right now (between quite a few that have been pretty disappointing, WotC's negative direction, and no reason to buy core rulebooks just months before a new set is released).
Lastly, I found it interesting how you approached your predictions and interpretations as "People who watch D&D videos would think...". Any future surveys would greatly benefit from a "Where did you hear about this survey?" question, because I didn't originally hear about it from your video or any other video, but posted over on Mastodon. Furthermore, I extremely rarely watch D&D videos (which made it surprising to me that this popped up in my feed, but I'm glad it did!) So here is at least an n=1 respondent who was very much NOT fitting your predicted typical respondent at all! :)
I definitely took all of the references to “D&D” in your survey to mean *5e specifically*, and answered accordingly.
I think you underestimate how many people thought you did mean WotC's D&D instead of the whole d20 game environment. I would have thought that as well.
1:40 If the question is "How do you feel about Dungeon's & Dragons?", people answer the question. The question WAS NOT "How do you feel about TTRPGs?", and the survey shows that. Expecting another result is very strange in my opinion. Inputting your own feelings and assumptions into a clear question is how most arguments on the internet start when people do not read what the person is actually saying, and instead they interpret it in their own way even if it changes the entire meaning of the question or statement.
Agreed; I, for one, answered the question based on my feelings about D&D specifically. The way the question was worded, games like Pathfinder, OSRIC, T&T, etc. did not enter into my calculus.
Except TTRPG is an absolutely stupid term. There is no other RPG. Video games are just video games.
@@NemoOhd20 ever heard of CRPGs? I do agree they aren't as comprehensive on the role play aspect, but they are still role playing games.
@NemoOhd20 what about Live Action Roleplaying Games?
@@varenoftatooine2393 ehhhhhhhh
I absolutely do not equate any other RPGs, even ones that use d20s, with D&D, and assuming that people do so perpetuates the idea that D&D is the "be all end all" of TTRPGs, which then makes it super hard to get people to play other (and arguably better in many cases) games. It's like when my mom calls all console games "Nintendo", but worse because in many cases, even people who've played D&D for years don't realise other games exist, whereas almost everyone who's played Nintendo consoles for years know about PCs, Xboxes and PlayStations.
This. To be honest, D&D = all D20 systems is a baffling take coming from a self proclaimed TTRPG youtuber who really should know better :/
Saying that so many games count as D&D just because they have a similar game mechanic and mode of play is far too generous, and perpetuates the myth that Dungeons and Dragons is the be all, end all of the TTRPG hobby.
And the further bad acting from WOTC makes this separation more important now than ever, to highlight that there are alternatives - and not make it sound like D&D doesn't have competition (how can a game compete with itself?).
I mean yeah, this is pretty spot on. Don't call something DND, if it just factually is not. Do not give them any undeserved credit.
Totally agree. D&D is - and always was - a specific TTRPG and brand name. It is also doing all the other systems a disservice to just call them D&D.
Something to consider is D&D is synonymous with RPG's or the actual act of role playing. Some people don't like using their imagination as leisure.
Yeah, but Pathfinder and the OSR basically built their existence as being D&D but not by WotC, and Kobold Press is doing it again. All of these games (and AGE, from Green Ronin) are essentially the same, and form a huge "tribe" if you prefer. There are no other games out there that use levels and classes that I am aware of. Traveller, all the BRP/RuneQuest derived stuff, Shadowrun, Free League's stuff, Hero/Champions, GURPS, the various versions of World of Darkness and it's offshoots like Exalted... in terms of gameplay far more games exist that are completely different than the D&D family of basically the same game with some execution differences.
i am only playing dnd when invited for 1 shots but for all other ttrpg needs, i justplay other games, as i am just done with dnd
woah woah woah, I did NOT answer that considering all TTRPGs as D&D. I didn't think a channel that covers MANY TTRPGs would double-specify the name of a specific game but mean the entire genre. Especially coming off a video specifically about the one game. Hell, especially since you said D&D later on but meant specifically D&D!
Yeah no! D&D is D&D; other systems are other systems. Pathfinder is related but it's not D&D. Even D20 is not really D&D.
When you ask us about D&D, most of us will answer about D&D, not TTRPGs in general.
When people ask about Rifts, I don't answer based on Savage Worlds.
Drinking game:
take a shot Everytime the word "specific" or a variant of it used. Take two shots for every "especially" typed. Read it in the kronk poison for Kuzco scene voice.
Basic, 1st and 2nd editions of D&D were not WOTC so I can see why people might be recommending 'D&D' more than the products currently made by its current owner.
That's what happened with our new group. It is the most diverse group of players I have ever had and most if not all want nothing to do with anything newer than AD&D2e.
Also a great point!
@@BobWorldBuilder I recomended "D&D" for a friend but I really ran Pathfinder 1e. : )
I reccommend basic or 1st or 2nd edition D&D. But not wotc, 5e or anything newer
@@trikepilot101,
They wouldn't notice the difference... but if you do want to play D&D while using the deep lore of Galorian, may I suggest you use the Pathfinder Campaign Setting for 3.5e? :p
I know when I answered I was answering from the perspective "D&D" meant material published by WotC. I think another Survey with those two view points separated out would yield some interesting results.
"How do you feel about D&D WotC products"
"How do you feel about D&D all ttrpg including WotC products."
I think the data about WotC itself is pretty clear and you could skip that section on Survey 2.0
I own a FLGS, and book prices will kill my local sales even more due to online/digital sales being cheaper. I host 5 games a week and rarely do players own a book.
Let's not forget how often the rules change these days, too, making printed material outdated far quicker than it used to be. The price definitely doesn't help, either.
I understand. I’ve been playing for five years and only own copies of 5e on dndbeyond.
I’ve thought about getting physical copies before the next edition comes out, maybe to have as a keepsake than something I’ll actually use.
That being said, it’s hard to want to spend $180 on just three core books, bundles are cheaper but it’s hard for brick and mortar to compete online.
@@AndrewNarogIts almost like they Want it that way.. because they know they cant control a published book once its released.. but they can revoke a digital book anytime they feel like it.
Screw digital.
To be fair players not owning their own copies of the books has been a thing longer than digital sales.
If everything goes digital we will have alot of players from my country dropping it like a rock. Internet connections aren't that great here and books & paper are at least something you have access to all the time if you owned it
I wish more people would draw a distinction between the game and the business practices of the company.
I think this survey shows that a lot of people already do! The opinions of D&D were quite good! Wotc, not so much.
unfortunately the only way to punish the buissiness decisions of a company is to not buy there product which always negitively impacts the Product, and as much as I Love D&D and other role playing games, do not mistake that they are a Product.
I think it should be opposite. The game and the company are not separate entities. DND5e is not a great system, it's fine, but nothing great. DND5e's monopoly is bad both because of the system, and parent company, because it results in actually good games being less popular then they should (people think that learning other systems will be as hard as learning 5e was, after all it's a fairly complex system, while in truth, learning something like City of Mist will take you less then an hour to play, and maybe 3-4h to GM) and an exploitive company making more money.
And I'm not saying that to attack the players and GMs of 5e, if anything, for me it's impressive, the things you guys can do with such a mediocore system are astonishing. If you DM 5e, I have nothing but respect for you, but you know that you're fighting with the system every time you roll a dice, and this fight is completely unnecessary... with a better system your life will be so much easier.
Yup
@@KajtekBeary DND's biggest asset is the resources they have to push themselves into the mainstream, entire rows of stores dedicated to D&D products, Stranger things promoting them in their very main stream show, the Vox Machina show advertised all the time on prime, and hasbro's connections to push them into main stream retailers (ex, walmart). Until another company can compete with these resources, D&D will always be on top, purely due to exposure.
I read a while ago there was talks of a Blades in the Dark show adaptation, which I think would be the best way to compete with D&D, i mean just look at the fallout show and how much traffic that drew to the games. That sort of main stream attention would do wonders for any competitor. I don't know if this show will be the one to combat D&D but It could be a start. Not to mention, its a TTRPG that is not exclusively high fantasy. Getting into the space when I started, I wasnt (and still not really) a fan of high fantasy, but thought that's all TTRPGs were. it was only seeing one shots on youtube by Geek and Sundry via random youtube recommendations that showed me there's more to it. Reaching out of the RPG space I think is the way for these companies to compete
I answered your survey and I answered assuming in this case with DnD they mean actual DnD 5e.
Totally fair assumption. My main change to the survey itself would have been to make that question more specific, perhaps splitting into two questions to cover how I looked at it vs how you looked at it (which is probably what the survey was going for)
@@BobWorldBuilderwatching this video, I had the same thought. I played and ran 5e for a while before I bounced off of it and went back to other games (incl old editions). But I can't say I've ever recommended it. The hobby yes, the current edition no.
And that was my view by 2019, my opinion of the current edition and the company have gotten worse since.
@@BobWorldBuilder I have to be honest, I don't like this idea you push that RolePlay is DnD, if I don't like DnD I don't like RPGs, if I don't recommend DnD I don't recommend RPGs and so on....
I suspect your assessment is the more common one
@@BobWorldBuilderI think you need to perhaps put out a poll that separates D&D from Pathfinder and other systems with similar questions.
Seems a common response in these comments, and I think people are interested to see what you find out
i like the DELVE name ! for me it can mean :
Dungeon exploration : Lethal variant edition
I think suggesting that people were only answering that they didn't like Wizards of the Coast based on your video being jokingly conspiratorial is really underselling how terrible they have been treating their customers. People don't like Hasbro/WotC because of their own actions as a company, unprompted by you.
True, but I wasn't trying to suggest that it was only my doing. Just that, if in some alternate timeline, I titled/thumbed the video like "D&D Opinion Survey! Share the Love!" that would have attracted different people to the survey.
I conversely think it's pretty easy to underestimate how harmful conspiratorial videos can be
the negative feelings about DnD are not because of your videos. Most likely it has to do with WotC conduct towards the community in the last 1.5 years, starting with the OGL debacle, and Hasbro's craptastic influence on the brand. The move towards a subscription online model is a major mistake that most people feel very negatively about.
You make a good point. Something I have to remind myself whenever I see comments saying I'm too negative about WotC these days, is that I'm generally just reporting on the objectively negative things they've done. Thank you!
Love your work, and thanks for taking the time to do the survey and releasing the data uncut :)
Re 1:47 - given that Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) IS a brand name and trademark, saying you expected people to equate it with an array of other TTRPGs is a bit like releasing a survey on "What do people think about Coca-Cola?" and expecting people to answer with their opinions on Coca-Cola, Cherry Cola, Pepsi, tuKola, Phoenix Organic Cola, and Dr Pepper (cola flavor) ;)
But there /are/ parts of the world that use 'coke' for 'soda'. In the US alone this tends to happen more between Texas and Georgia based on the study I found.
Actually equating a number of things under the leading brand's name as though it's the general name is pretty common. Photoshop for photo editing software. Google for internet searching. Many people will ask if you have a Kleenex instead of a tissue. Velcro. ChapStick. Bubble Wrap. Dumpster. Escalator. Thermos. Crock-Pot. Band-Aid. Aspirin.
This is, in fact, so common there's even terms for it!: Genericization / Trademark Erosion
I think Bob is absolutely correct in saying that a lot of people would say DnD in reference to TTRPGs as a whole. I've seen and heard it for myself. It's shorter and for many in the community it's their first TTRPG, so they think of that term before they default to 'TTRPG'. However that said, because it's specifically a survey made by WotC, I do think people taking it were interpreting more as the actual game and not TTRPGs in general.
Supporting the publishers you like more. Yes. 100%.
I love your objectivity that leans towards positive alternative responses that still have an effect in the direction people may wish to go. As a prematurely grumpy old man, you temper my reactions, and get me think a little more deeply. That's a valuable gift you have, sir.
From speaking to people who play other TTRPGs my guess for "hate" on D&D comes from the monopoly it holds and detracts from other systems.
They don't actually have too many complaints about the mechanics in D&D, more that there are some great games with really fun mechanics that just aren't getting the attention/funding they deserve because the majority of TTRPG players just stick with D&D. Hopefully that will change as people branch out a little with things like daggerheart.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense!
There's definitely plenty of those people, but I also know so many others who have a lot of complaints about 5e mechanics specifically. There are so many house rules about changing advantage/disadvantage into +2/-2 modifiers, making drinking potions bonus actions, adjusting healing from long rests, outright ignoring crafting rules for 3rd party ones, and so on. And almost all of them are centred around combat, D&D's bread and butter system. Their exploration rules need so much expansion that there are countless 3rd party offerings, essays, blog posts, videos etc. just on ways to make travelling much more interesting.
@@Mercadian Definitely - I've heard those too but whilst they're things that could be done better they aren't usually enough to make someone "hate" the game.
I think the hate stems more from the fact that it's far and away the most popular TTRPG without being the best.
@@MercadianBut is that really a problem with dnd, or is it a feature with ttrpgs in general?
This is definitely a large contributor to my dislike for it. I do have issues with mechanics but I would hate 5e less if it wasn't the only option my group played.
I feel like the problem with the first question is if you say ‘DnD’ lots of people will assume ‘Officially licensed Dungeons and Dragons, Basic, Advanced, 1-5 Edition’ instead of ‘Any TTRPG using a fantasy setting and based on the D20 system.’ I’m sure if it was phrased as ‘DnD or similar D20 systems’ (if that is what you were hoping to find out about) it would be much higher on the like/love side.
D&D became just a starter package. Back then it was the only option. Now I'd rather back KICKSTARTERS like DELVE instead of what WotC produce.
I would absolutely love for the Stranger Things kids in Season Five (circa 1987) to be playing Call of Cthulhu or the Star Wars RPG rather than D&D. I would have a heartattack if they were playing Champions. ❤️
Interesting look at the results. :) I guess it would have been useful to define "D&D" in the introduction to the survey, I understood it as the IP only, so essentially D&D 5e given it's its current shape. I would not have included Pathfinder and other d20 games in the midst.
In any case, it's interesting to have these kind of discussions these days. Good job as always. :)
I backed Delve Shadowdark version for a reason.
Thanks for backing!
I definitely thought this survey was specifically for 5e and wasnt thinking about other rpgs when filling out this survey
I think you are missing the fact that non D&D role players watch D&D videos for general role play ideas.
Well not necessarily! I am not ttrpg player but general art and creative things fan (especially indie video games and sci fi). I'm interested in ttrpgs as one of my interests, I like to listen about it. Situation with WotC makes me feel sorry for you all :( Like some old saying from my country says: We're both riding on the same cart.
Strong disagree. Me trying to figure our cool Score and Heist ideas for Blades in the Dark does not lead me to watch DnD.
If I remember correctly, I voted "I don't like this game" for D&D because I thought of 5th edition D&D as it is now since this was based on WotC's survey about presumably current D&D, at least in my mind, and I genuinely don't like it as much compared to other systems that are out there right now, or even 4th edition D&D. But if I were to think of not specific editions of D&D, and even D&D-like games as a whole, then I would have voted "I love it".
Love that you did this and love that you are sharing - you are awesome. (I agree with your up front assessment about potential bias and for sure the "do you like WOTC" questions are likely heavily biased based on how you drove participation in the study.) And yes I will support your KS to spite them :)
I really appreciate your understanding and support! :)
Can’t wait for Delve dude. So cool that you’re splicing 5e with shadowdark. Ordered the 5e core package day 1 😎
Woo! Thank you!
Wizards of the cost
Somehow I haven't heard that one yet haha
There are other companies making 5e products for D&D other than WotC. If i recall how i answered these questions, that’s what i took into account. I haven’t recommended a WotC product or purchased from them in over a year but have recommended other 5e products from Kobolds Press and Level Up 5E. Both companies have products for 5e that allows you to play the game doesn’t require purchasing products from WotC.
I would guess that for most people D&D would mean D&D branded products regardless of publishers. So not inclucidng Shadowdark, but definitely including versions of D&D published by TSR. My guess would be that those recommending D&D, but not WoTC products, were mostly recommending one of the "first edition" D&D edition popular with the OSR community.
Got my pledge submitted can’t wait to get my book eventually! Killing it Bob! 😎
Fascinating data! I appreciated the read. I am curious about any potential skewing of the data based on the community or perhaps even who watches videos like your own compared to the majority of players. But what you gathered is an interesting snapshot in any case.
Thanks! I learned a few days after this recording-- thanks to some analysis by Mike Shea of Sly Flourish-- that the spikes in responses after my initial video, Professor DM's video, then Mike's video each had ~similar~ ratings on positivity. With mine generally between Professor's (less positive) and Mike's (more positive).
Just from the beginning of the survey, i am struggling with the stated assumption that DnD means any of a number of d20 based fantasy roleplaying systems that are not dnd.... DnD is a specific system. Just like Pathfinder or 13th Age or Savage Worlds are specific syatems. Back to the video.
I have been getting back into D&D for the last few years to see if the current version is any good and long story short, I haven't had a good time with it. What's been really interesting is that I have been reading some old documents and there are people that have the same critiques with the design of D&D that I have back in the 1970s. It was also interesting to find that some of my other critiques were as a direct result of them responding to the Satanic Panic.
I think I need to start learning Shadowdark. If the trend continues Shadowdark would be the next Pathfinder.
Thank you, Bob Survey Administrator
4:56 I'd actually be part of that "never" group in terms of recommending D&D. mostly because of the gripes I have with the system, with how limiting its rigid class and level system is. Yes, I do play D&D (and as a result of those gripes inevitable end up with insane multiclass-combos to create the character I envision, even if it may suffer at higher levels). But I regard it as merely serviceable. Personally I prefer the more open approach of Shadowrun 4th edition. So long as you have karma (quasi-XP) you can increase skills and stats up to the physical/mental limitations of whatever you are playing, be that metahuman, sentient animal, free spirit, or even a sentient AI.
Did someone say Kickstarter? 🤔
Thanks for keeping the survey up for longer than Hasbro.
Great video. Thanks for running this survey and sharing the results. Very interesting.
I’ve recently had coworkers coming out of the woodwork asking me to DM for them. They’ve seen Stranger Things and Critical Role and want to play. We will start with WotC materials because they want to play “official” D&D, but then we will probably go to Drakkenheim or another independent setting.
Great survey analysis! I understand casually using the term "D&D" to mean "fantasy role-playing" but this survey seems to clearly be about D&D 5th as published by Hasbro.
I kind of wonder if the official survey was part of the reason their CEO "stepped down."
I have no issue with WoTc.
I have an issue with Hasbro that control them.
To be honest I'm not sure where that line is exactly. Do you have a source or list of actions that were triggered by one company rather than the other?
Yeah it's a blurry/fine line as to which company has been responsible for what. Despite occasionally making videos to report on the bad news, ultimately I love "D&D" and just try to support its many versions, independent of those companies if possible.
Yeah, I kinda wish you would've created a question for each of the WotC questions asking about Hasbro. I was really curious about hatred for WotC vs hatred for Hasbro. I actually think a lot of the people who watch your videos actually like WotC a little more if they're allowed to blame Hasbro vs WotC. For me, the videos with Chris Perkins, Jeremy Crawford, and others who you can tell actually love the game give a favorable light to the company than it otherwise might get. Or maybe that's just the D&D team, but not WotC.
@@indigoblacksteel1176 The problem is.
Many of the people that have a problem with WoTc, (Or the things that have been infered from WotC) do not realise that WotC are litteral slaves to Hasbro.
Hasbro make descisions, and then try to keep their name out of it as much as possible when things go bad preffering to throw WotC under the intergalactic transport ship.
I can see this. Hasbro is owned by institutional investors...like 60%.
I started watching because back in the deck recommended. I have a show myself and have been playing since dungeons and dragons 3rd Ed. I did take a break for about 2 years in the early 90s.
I can't say I'm surprised, given the trend in news. Thanks for putting the survey together to capture a wider sample. I do love the game, even if I'm not thrilled with the company that's producing it now. As I told them in a prior survey - between BECMI, 2E and 5E products I already own, I could play D&D in some form or another until the day I die without spending another cent on their products. I don't need them, they need us. Hopefully they change course accordingly.
Bob's first few guesses had me cracking up 😂
I'm in this video and I like it.
13:47 WotCIA operation 'silence of the DMs'
I started playing D&D at age 12, in 1988 and have proudly tell anyone who asks! Even today at work.
Thanks for the toasty update Bob, happy to be support you with my own copy of Delve!
Much appreciated!
No we're definitely unhappy with the direction D&D is going because of WotC's recent actions, not because of content creators clickbait titles and thumbnails. :)
And the keep acting worse
I think with the first question was swayed by the survey and it locked it to DND as DND by WOTC.
I interpreted Q1 as actual Dungeons and Dragons. Not the spinoffs. And I love it. It has been part of me for 40 years now.
The true question so far as like/don’t like is concerned should be about Hasbro, IMO
spinoffs?
Anyone else notice an optical illusion at 4:23?
When I look at the red or yellow part of the diagram, then dart my eyes to the explanation on the right, then back onto the diagram (around the green part), the blue piece seems flicker out of existance for a split second, closing the empty space it left behind with green and red. Very freaky.
I don't have a ruler here but I'm holding my phone at about 1,5 phone lengths from my face.
This illusion works both with the video running and paused but it seems to occur more easier with bob talking lol.
I only got it to wok about 10 times so the sample size is obviously small.
I did not answer considering any d20 Fantasy TTRPG as D&D. However, it's usually "find a group to try it" not "buy the PHB", you don't actually need to give WotC/Hasbro a penny to start playing the game.
I'd even recommend buying their own set of dice before a book
Pinkertons killed Bob's camera! 😳
I didn't take the broader interpretation of D&D. I think the recent controversies have make the distinction between fantasy RPGs and D&D in general more distinct.
I started with dnd redbox, blue box, ad&d, and 2nd (1981 to 2005), the palladium in (late 80's), then 5th edition dnd 2019. Now that dnd is running itself aground, I've been looking at DCC and MCC and pathfinder 2e and others.
We need you to do this survey again with "D&D" swapped out for "TTRPGs" for science
Honestly I wish you'd added another question regarding Hazbro vs Wotc.
I also wish you'd have specifically gotten into asking if people liked the digital products (dnd beyond, vtt, etc) vs the physical ones (minis, cards, books, etc.). Unironically it would be interesting data to have given that we're basically getting pushed by wotc to go digital whether we like it or not.
Ages for those who took the survey would have been useful data as well.
My favorite TTRPG's and systems: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
Three things:
1.) I wish a better company owned WotC, or they licenced D&D to someone who cares.
2.) I love your channel partly because you have only been playing D&D for 5+ years. I've been gaming for a lot longer than that, but I personally love to hear younger people's opinions on the hobby. They (like you) have fresh, and more modern ideas and opinions about the hobby, and I love it!
3.) Re: your kickstarter: You had me at Shadowdark!
Thanks, and keep being awesome!
The problem with some of the questions on this survey is that it doesn't contrast D&D with other TTRPGs, to give a benchmark. For me personally, I've recommended other TTRPGs more than D&D, played and run other TTRPGs more than D&D. I'm also not at all inclined to use D&D as a synecdoche for the whole hobby, so talking D&D vs TTRPGs is an important distinction, I feel.
Bob, you're so laid back and cool, I watched this entire video even though I have no interest in those stats.
Keep on keepin' on brother!
I appreciate that you suggested supporting publishers we like rather than just hating on others (my words). If we could put that energy into something positive, it would be mad.
Wonder if WotC will acknowledge this video publicly. Spite pledge done jk. just supporting because I like what you do Bob
I highly doubt it matters to them. I'm not even sure it matters at all as long as people are having fun playing something! Thanks for the support!
@@BobWorldBuilder yeah I always try people to start role-playing. Never D&D specific though. Currently reading Avatar: legends seems fun.
Only halfway through the video now, but I really appreciate that you talk about how the surveys were framed, and what might cause bias in the test! Addressing that a survey isn't just going to represent everyone and that people with certain views are more likely to take the test is really important in any data collection. Respect for breaking down the context rather than just taking the numbers to prove a point
On my own thoughts, I feel like the name "D&D" has become (at least for me) representative of the hobby and ttrpg systems in general, especially in the case of recommending it to new people.
People within the TTRPG community tend to have stronger opinions about referring to different systems as D&D, but since the concept of "D&D" is far more widely known through media like Stranger Things and Critical Role, it's far easier to just say D&D than to explain the differences and similarities of the Call of Cthulu oneshot I just played.
Personally, if someone asks me how D&D works, I'm going to explain the basic ttrpg structure, not the intricacies of character progression. The specifics that would differ between systems often are way too complicated for someone just curious about the game, when it generally boils down to "roll dice to see if what you want to do works". If they want to play, I'll explain further.
(Also, I find it tricky to say "TTRPG" in the middle of a conversation. "D&D" is easier to say, more recognizable, and "Dungeons & Dragons" gives a much clearer picture of a fantasy adventure game than "tabletop role playing game". In fact, D&D is so widely known that if I'm explaining LARP to someone, it's far easier to just start with "like D&D but in person" than trying to explain Live Action Role Play from the ground up, despite them being way more distinct than different TTRPGs.)
We've been waiting for this!
I love all Bob World Builder's content.
After having experienced every edition of the game, a new edition is almost always received negatively in the ramp up to release. People know they have to sink another chunk of money in the core books to remain current even though they already have everything they need to play. Few genres take more advantage of the fear of missing out than RPGs.
from my perspective i took dnd as the game itself and wotc products as books and merch
i started a dnd group but as all of us are students with no disposable income i recommended to get the information from the interwebs
00:51 Whoa! That’s my video!😲
Great video boss. Great idea from Sly with the predictions
I love how you do give the context regarding the possible negative pretext. It's just good transparent content.
Gonna be honest, assuming "DnD" means "all d20 based systems" is like assuming everyone calls all sodas Coke, or all cars Fords. DnD is A product made by A company. It is a very influential product, yes, that layed the foundation for many more, but its disingenuous to all the other systems that spawned from it to refer to them as DnD as well.
I just noticed the Ladyworld album in the background. Bob has good taste.
Sweet TWRP album.
I usually use "D&D" to only refer to WotC D&D when talking to other gamers, but I use D&D for all games to people outside of the geekosphere. I usually use "d20 games" or "D&Dish games" to include all of the other games. I would have liked to see these questions with one version only WotC 5e/6e and one with d20 games, and one with non d20-based games.
Thanks for sharing your results! Regarding the questions of recommending D&D vs recommending purchasing WoTC products. You can recommend D&D to someone without recommending they buy the books or WoTC products. For example, my wife and I became friends with the bartender at a local brewery. When we found out he was interested in learning to play D&D, I suggested that I could run a one-shot and he could play with us and my daughter and her boyfriend. We met with him beforehand and went through making a PC. While we own the books, I didn't recommend he buy them, but instead showed him how he could find pretty much everything needed online. So, ultimately, you could say we recommend D&D to him, but we did not recommend WoTC products. I haven't bought WoTC products since the OGL scandal hit. I'll stick to independent creators until I see WoTC repent! 🙂
I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!
Thank you for commenting!
To question #2: I interpret “recommend” as being different from “invite”.
If I say “hey, Julia, you should come play D&D with us” I wouldn’t think of that as “a recommendation” and it wouldn’t come to mind when answering that survey question. Or, at least, it’s a recommendation to play with me and my friends, not a recommendation for whatever specific game we happen to be playing.
So I’d answer question #2 with the last time someone asked for _which_ RPG they should play, and I gave a recommendation. And while I can’t say for certain that I’ve never recommended D&D, I can’t _remember_ the last time I recommended D&D. Some of that is contextual bias: almost always the person asking that question had played D&D already, and if that were the answer to their question they wouldn’t be asking it. But I’ve had some folks who’ve never played an rpg and want to start ask me which one to play, and in that context D&D could theoretically be a sensible answer. But unless your primary criterion is “the game that most D&D players play”, I wouldn’t typically _recommend_ D&D be someone’s first rpg. So I usually end up recommending something other than D&D to newbies and almost always recommend something other than D&D to D&D players looking for something else.
I've recommended d&d not too long ago but have not recommended wizards of the Coast products in quite some time because you can get what you need online without buying products from a morally bankrupt company. Also there's a lot of Independence stuff out there for d&d.
is delve book on amazon so i can buy it today? please send me link. i try look for it no clue
Right now it's only available for purchase through the Kickstarter campaign. It's a crowdfunding process to fund the production of the book over the next several months. After that period, it will become available on Eventyr Games' website, and probably Amazon after that.
The difference between question 2 and 6 is that
• Question 2: I don't recommend D&D to start playing rpg games (Quest is much simpler for example).
• Question 6: somebody asked me for tips regarding building cities and I referred him to D&D 3.5 DM II as a reference. So I recommended it.
The same happened with Heroes of Horror.
I recommend the subproducts, not the game for the mechanics and complexity.
I honestly haven't played DnD 5E at all and haven't played 4E in about 7 years, but I still watch your channel for all the different content. A lot of your ideas are applicable across games even when you're talking about DnD. I don't remember if I took the survey, but when I recommend TTRPGs, it's never DnD, just because it's not what I play.
I’m so very glad you did this survey!
This really shows the general public (and WOTC) the reality of where people stand; especially on their lack of integrity imo - great video as always!
I think something to keep in mind with the wotc specific stats is that dnd may not be the only push against wotc. Recently there has been some mtg controversy with the 30th anniversary edition as well as people feeling like they are getting more predatory with thier pricing for that as well. That went into my decisions at least for the responses. I would imagine there is at least a decent crossover for the two hobbies.
5:55 is why you have to be very clear and concise in such surveys. Maybe next time, first ask a questions about RPGs in general and then repeat the same question for D&D in particular This would prevent people interpreting "D&D" as stand-in for D&D-likes or RPG in general, and it would also give you a nice indicator where in the RPG market D&D actually lands. I for example would absolutely recommend picking up an RPG, but I would advise against D&D, especially for beginners.
Best part of this video is when you say "support the publishers and creators you like and enjoy" Keeping it positive
One thing to keep in mind about the psychology of survey taking, is there's a sizeable chunk of people who lie or troll it, just for laughs. It's actually something you can find techniques and rules for how to structure a survey to either trick people into being honest, or at least identify those who weren't being honest with their data.
In fact, on some subjects and surveys, it's been found most people weren't honest. Not to mention, a lot of people will answer a survey in a way that is flat out inconsistent with their behavior, without even realizing it.
So yeah, I wouldn't put too much faith in these numbers. There's a reason you're seeing weird inconsistencies in the data.
Yeah, I can't respond to a survey question with a question that asks for clarification. This was a Gandalf "good morning" moment. Your broad definition = I love this game. A narrower definition, say, just 5e = "I'm neutral." There are things I love, and things I can't stand. My favorite edition would be B/X with the Companion from Running Beagle Games. For various reasons I'm being led towards running 3.5 more often, however.
I'm happy to see what the results were. I'm very much of the mind that D&D is strictly D&D, I hate that it is what others view as synonymous with TTRPGs as a whole. I would never think that the surveys would be about the genre of game and not the product that WOTC produces.