This is funny because Brian has had to explain vtubers to his own father, before his father had revealed that a tool review channel had been doing it for a decade before vtubing got big.
@@raikensmasher I swear he talked about it on-stream, but for the life of me, I cannot find any video of it. His tweet about it is still there, though. Also, it wasn't a decade before vtubers, it was more like 2016
One MAJOR thing that they didn't mention is that actually having a good (!) vtuber model costs A FUCKTON OF MONEY, so that's part of why some people join those big companies. And to do some major things like full-3D streams (where they can move around freely in 3D in a complex way), they need a studio to use and the companies also provide that (kinda). Like, the indie side of things is growing a lot nowadays, but folks still require the companies for major stuff. Even indies will sometimes make a deal with companies just to use their studio for a special event for example.
I was just about to come in here and talk about this. It's also important to note that (depending on the agency), you'll get a wider net of people willing to work with you on songs, assets, merch art, etc etc. Also, you have a reliable stable of streamers that will be okay to collab with you for whatever ideas you might have, potentially.
This, I wanna highlight. They commission top of the line illustrators and character designers to create the characters, get people to rig them as completely as possible - and they pay the artists *royalites* as well. Repeat every other year when they get a redesign or a 3D Model. It's a machine with a ton of up front costs that are helped by someone investing first.
Wrestling is a solid analogy. You have your indies that make a name for themselves and stick with that for the entire careers. Indies who get the attention of a promotion's talent scouts, get picked up and start over with a new gimmick, but on a bigger stage. Sometimes they get drawn in from other fields (IRL streamers/musicians in vtubing compared to MMA/NFL/Influencers in wrestling) Some stay in that promotion for their entire careers. Some get sick of the politics and red tape and return to being independent, but bring some of the fans they made at a promotion with them. As for protecting their anonymity, people can be crazy and there have been cases of "fans" stalking vtubers and going to insane lengths to find who they are and where they live.
The privacy is the part I understand the most. If you can enjoy the benefits of e-fame without the downside of potential creeps or desperate and deluded stans then more power to you.
Koe didnt really mention this but in addition to having an established audience, companies would provide Live2D models, staff support, and sponsorship connections for the said vtuber.
there's a lot to mention, but Koe had to try and match Brian here after all. I'm sure Koe knows all that, but there's only so much you can explain about Vtubing in a compact manner, especially when the whole thing is barely 8 years or so.
Yeah there’s a ton of behind the scenes stuff that the staff and management are supposed to do for their Vtuber talent. Just looking at Hololive, management nerds the permits to play the games they stream, finding sponsorships and contacting companies. There’s obviously giving the tech and resources for the talent to stream properly, including 2D and 3D models for everyone. With the songs and music videos, there’s finding all the people involved like the mixers and composers, coreographers as well for ones with dance. Not to mention singing coaches. They also do massive concerts every few months, so that’s an entire new thing. In addition they have an “anime” Hologra, which needs scriptwriters and animators for that. There’s another big project in the works which is basically an ARG open-world game that they’re trying to build. All this without mentioning merchandise, regular corporate functions like accountants and such, and probably a lot of other stuff as well I forgot to mention. Corpo Vtubers have a ton of resources poured into them, and there’s a standard of quality with the Hololive experience. Hololive is arguably the highest quality of this stuff, but it’s also extremely hard to get into the agency considering how stacked the cast is.
I kinda love those interaction between those two world that I enjoy because it always make me feel like seeing Cyclops shaking hand with Ryu in X-men Vs Street Fighter lol
Treat corpo vtubers debut like a fighting character debut. The corpo is a popular fighting game, and the new vtubers are the new fighters. People are hyped for new fighters and anticipates their releases, just like how existing audiences of the corpo are hyped for new talents, hence establishing players/audiences even before their launch/debut. After the initial launch, people who liked how the fighters play will keep on playing them as their mains, while the people who liked the vtuber's content after their initial debut will continue watching them.
As a vtuber fan I love this convo so much, thank you brian for always being so patient and on-point while coaching, and even trying to understand the vtuber thing which is totally out of their circle. He just asks questions for reasons and I don’t feel judgement from his words (tho it’s actually easy to do so for ppl new to it, as there’re really many weird things in this culture), that’s very kind.
koe knows so much about vtubers so it's good he's in that team to actually explain all of this lol but yeah he did regret to inform Brian about the fact if you're in a corpo, they will help you with merch, marketing and other expenses too before and after your debut, and as long as you're part of their company. (granted they're a good agency and isn't just using you lol)
Another reason a good agency is sought after is because of legal protection. A giant independent streamer like Pewdiepie can have his original music copyright claimed by some random scammers but if that content is actually owned by an agency, it becomes their legal responsibility to protect their copyright. To uphold their contracts, they have to hire lawyers and pursue legal action against scammers like that. This is not something every independent content creator can do. Especially when a lot of these scammers aren't even in the same country and are operating under different legal systems. You'd have to travel to the other country, possibly hire translators, hire lawyers familiar with that country's legal system, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I'm not even aware of or maybe that'd be it. Either way, that's a lot for an independent content creator to manage and fiance on their own.
It's kind of like marvel or dc introducing a new hero, they've added this hero into the expanded universe and people who like that expanded universe have a greater chance of looking at this new thing because it's a part of that universe.
To be clear, the individual still matters. The corp might get them an initial base, but after that they need to put in the worth themselves to grow it. And those viewers are loyal to the streamer more than the corp. If the streamer leaves and continues as a new character, a large portion of the viewers will follow them to their new lives.
There's a pair of twin Vtubers in Hololive called Fuwamoco and they recently got their 3D Model debut and did have a live wrestling match with their 3d avatars full on with Kayfabe and chair hits.
2:43 If you watched Brawlpro's stream, he was trying to hold in his laughter so bad that it sounded like he farted when Koe started mentioning the companies
Hearing that they collaborated with the dodgers is honestly so funny. I cant imagine all these middle aged sports fans seeing vtubers on the big screen… 💀
This reminds me of the boy band craze of the 90s and these corporations just form groups and start pumping in money to promote them when they came outta nowhere
Brian's comment about how strange it is to see this "parent company cred" phenomenon happen in an online space is very interesting. It reminds me of how netflix replaced cable for a while and now we have 30 different netflixes and it just feels like cable again. Old social patterns reocurring within new spaces.
Agency Vtuber - 9 times out of 10 create the character you stream as, will cover things like merch and collaborations with other companies to increase your character's brand, starting with an established fanbase that's up to the talent themselves to keep/grow. In return, they get a % of the profits from the merch/collabs/donations/subs, need permissions to play certain content, which they may or may not get(and can lose permission for at any time), and must leave the character behind if they leave the company. Indie Vtbuer - Must hire their own staff to do things like merch/collabs, must build up their base by themselves, but the money they earn they can do with what they will, and can usually play whatever they want whenever they want and with whomever they want. People typically start as indie, "graduate" their character when they apply and are picked up by an agency to start over as a new character, and if they want to leave the company at any time either retire from the industry for good, or come back to the original character. People who start in an agency will usually come back as a new character, but obviously people recognize voices and mannerisms, so some of them come back to a much bigger audience than they would have had starting fresh. The other big difference is tech used. Indie tech tends to be much better than agency ones simply because they can freely change whatever they want about their character at any time. It's like the difference between owning a house and renting. Of course, the indie also has to pay the costs of these much fancier models, upwards of +$10k in some examples.
As a Twitch streamer myself, I still getting 1-2 viewers each stream. In the corpo, you are guaranteed to have at least 100-300+ viewers even if you aren't entertaining enough. Established audience is there to set with it. They also organized mech to sell to earn money beside SC.
Brian is doing quite well following along on the topic. He also touched on some of the pros and cons of being a corporate vs. independent. Love these talks especially from those not familiar with another area of content creations.
Adding to some of the comments here, vtubers sign with agencies so they can perform concerts full 3D concerts. Hololive, Nijisanji, Brave Group, and especially a lot middle-sized agencies in Japan put out multiple concerts year round. Hololive already had 2 major English concerts in the US this year and last year, plus a few smaller shows at conventions like at Dreamhack Melbourne. The only way to get these concerts off the ground is access to a full motion-capture studios. Hololive, Nijisanji, and Brave all have in-house studios that they give access to their talents, which is why aspiring vtubers work hard to get into these companies. Smaller companies can access 3rd party studios, but the cost is high when you are competing against movie productions and video game publishers, so many don't bother. Indies have it the toughest: very few have the reach and connections to get access to motion capture studios, nevermind the funds.
Kson mentioned when she did her 3D anniversary a few years back that the cost was about $60,000 USD at that time. When Henya did, same she spent a lot of money to do her 3D in a studio, and a bunch of VShojo "showed up" I think they used their own 3D set up at home to record stuff so they could embed that into the 3D while talking to her live. Either that or Haruka dna Zentreya flew to Japn to be there in person IRL. (Henya is so timid IRL I don't thik so she's probably more comfortable with them being online.
It can be very hard to make it as an indie vtuber. so many talented people never get their lucky break, and stagnate around 5-10k subscribers. Getting accepted into a corporate group skips that step, and skyrockets them into 100s of thousands of subscribers instantly, so long as they have the talent to maintain the viewership. A couple people have also mentioned it, but the cost of vtubing is getting higher and higher to be able to compete in the market. High fidelity models with good rigging/animation can cost up to $10k US dollars, not including the physical tech to make quality tracking possible, and most times, getting into an industry vtuber position, your character and model gets given to you. theres also the ease of collaborations, since you will have a network of dozens of people in your specific group to do streams and content with, and you dont have to go out of your way to try and make connections the way a normal streamer would.
We, Dragoon were talking about it too. Discussions were like can she play at remote place and, even if vtubers are allow to do so, will her privacy will be safe to go to the Twitch con ? All came down to if It is worth it. Personally, i do not think it is worth all the potential bs. 75% she will still probably attend the Twitch con incognito to meet her friends and the fellows. I hope she do. She should really touch grass ❤
another thing that isn't often talked about about being corporate vs independent is the level of support that you (theoretically, with a good company) get. like, if you're independent, and something goes wrong, you have to figure it out yourself. if you're independent and want to start making merchandise, you have to negotiate with manufacturers and shipping companies, you need to commission designers or do it yourself, you need to do this all by yourself up front, and learn on the fly and hope that you're good enough to come out ahead instead of being taken advantage of. when you are in a corporation, (again, when the corp is good) you would get support, people who now how to help with issues, industry contacts for merchandise, experiences people who are better at negotiating and getting permissions for things, stuff like that. yes, an independent vtuber could hire a manager or personal assistant, and hire additional helpers to do that sort of support work, but as we've recently seen with doki, the less 'hands off' you are when independent, the easier ti is for you to be taken advantage of. and while it's not impossible for a more structured corporation to also take advantage of their talents, it's more difficult due to there being more people to notice it and take action against it. which path to follow is mostly going to be dependent on the persons individual desires and skills, but despite the recent trends, corporations do provide value to the talents that join them, they aren't entirely negative after the initial debut, which exceptions made for the black companies
I found Koe years ago when I was looking for content on BB Cross Tag Battle. I mean other than that both Brian F and Koe both do fighting game content, I did not expect to see them interact lol. Pleasant surprise
Another thing to touch on that people rarely talk about is that vtubers are often actually more authentic than IRL streamers. It sounds counterintuitive, but that mask A) allows the person to feel more free to express themselves, and B) *forces* them to reach deeper into themselves in order to make that connection with their audience. It’s a trade off. You don’t get to see their face or know their real name, but you get more of the person underneath. The realest and most raw streamers are vtubers, *because* they have sense of distance and anonymity. Masks make people less inhibited, and it’s the same for vtubers. All they have is their personality, with no physical presence to fall back on. Sure, they’re often exaggerated and playing a character, but they still put much of their real selves into it.
6:48 a lot of applicants wc aspire to be part of an agency had an experience being an indie, although that do not necessarily means those who do not have the experience can not apply. It's just a plus.
the best way to explain it imo , is like imagine old times dc/marvel. whenever a new movie would come out, the marvel /dc fans would swarm to it, just cause they re fans of the brand. while releasing a movie as a new studio. ll be alot harder to gather a audience.
Brian's comparison of a vtuber debuting with a corp to a new TV show premiering on ABC is one I never really thought of. But yeah, a good vtuber agency will absolutely boost a talent's reach: the newest generation of HololiveEN got their Silver Play Buttons before they even had their first stream.
Yeah interesting chatter there... I do think how important the agency is depends. Hololive and Nijisanji are the big ones that pretty much guarantee a bunch of people will check out the stream. Some smaller agencies are trying to become something like that, but being honest I think the really big agencies are pretty unique - I've followed a vtuber or two from smaller agencies and just not gotten into the *agency* as a whole, and individual talents might just go viral while others don't benefit that much. On the other hand, I'm big on Hololive and the events they put together... But they're also one of the biggest groups.
Another point: Japanese companies, with their idol-adjacency, commonly do very large castings looking for people with singing skills etc, with songs and concerts being a large part. Combined with a looot of agency control what to play/not to play/even talk about and say, in order to not offend sponsors or even more deranged parts of the fan base. In contrast, western companies/indies seem more relaxed/ often have more varied background, more focus on talking/gaming, i.e. more like classical variety streamers. In short, asian corpos commonly own the whole IP, the persons behind the character are tightly bound by contracts and NDA's, not being allowed to say they are/were this or that personality before/after the organization contract.
So vtuber companies are a viable option because when the whole company will hype you up for your debut, the debut stream is essentially an introduction stream and other talents in the company will ofter restream the debut streams, that's how they "guarantee" initial views, secondly the company usually has connections to artists, sponsors and such. And its on you as a person to decide if the drawbacks of the tight contracts and NDAs are worth it.
Corpos usually sign small indie vtubers and elevate them to the status of major corporate vtuber under their new identity. The interest from fans goes like, "I saw clips of this vtuber, I should check them out" to "Oh, this vtuber I like collabs a lot with these other people from their group, I should check them out" to "Okay, my favorite vtuber is part of this group, I like the group in general too. I should check out these newly debuting talents in the group."
Brian actually made an excellent point I have never really considered. It's like Television all over again. But I would argue that Esports has brand loyalty in a similar fashion, though at a smaller scale.
I'm honestly surprised Brian, just from how Koe explained it, got to the same wrestling analogy as a lot of other people (ex. Garnt from Trash Taste) did 4 years ago when Vtubing exploded in the EN scene.
I feel old, as big papa brine said, just make content and talk about yourself on TH-cam etc, to hopefully get in the algorithm. Check out my low effort TH-cam content 😅 But if Doki was with an agency I wouldn’t trust she was a real person, people can remain private through an avatar, but being with an established agency and starting with nothing is…. An acting gig?
It is essentially a full time acting job. Although most vtubers (even corporate ones) will drop the pretense and act as themselves while only maintaining their persona names and maybe some of very simple lore. Fwiw Doki didn't exactly start with nothing, she had slowly grown a modest following on Twitch before she joined an agency. However, that was when her popularity really exploded, and it luckily followed her after her messy separation from said-agency.
@@Alllex I feel like most people who go into these corps are actually like regular, but small, streamers. i.e they already show that they at least know the bare minimum to entertain an audience, they just need for them to show up and there's where being part of the Brand™ helps. Of course it's not only that plenty of random people from all different sorts of life end up joining Nijisanji and Hololive
Eventually, if fans are loyal enough, it becomes less like acting and more like playing up their own personality for the audience. Obviously some level of a 4th wall has to be established, but for the most part (excluding the idol culture), a lot of them are like real life youtubers who commit to a persona for their image.
To give a bit of perspective that might make sense for those of us that have been around longer, Vtuber corporations are kind of like the current gen version of Machinima or Screw Attack. The company gives you an initial bump in exposure, a stable paycheck, resources that'd be much harder to acquire alone and a degree of protection from the fickle whims of the platform. In exchange you make videos/streams that they get a cut from on top of other work you do for them, and they own the IP you're working with. That's the theory at least. The not showing your face thing is mostly because people on the internet are *weird* and a lot of the culture is inherited from the Japanese idol scene which historically has had a lot of unhealthy fixation issues.
@@dragoknighte48The no face-reveal thing is also important for “immersion”. Vtuber companies are selling “real anime” not people pretending to be anime characters if that makes any sense. IRL drama, face-reveals break that immersion that vtubers corpos try to sell. Also, while there are certainly some pretty vtubers IRL who have face-revealed, it’s sort of a given that to a vtuber audience, their anime models are more attractive than they are IRL. For female streamers particularly, looks matter to male viewers. Vtubers sort of level the playing field and personality/entertainment value become more important than IRL physical. attractiveness. All the top female streamers are currently vtubers who don’t have a public IRL persona, so take that as you will.
I’m glad u posted this…I’ve gotten SOME clear understanding on vtubers…I still don’t see the point in it…I’ve always thought if u don’t want to be revealed just don’t use a face cam and that’s it…but some of this makes sense info in this vid makes sense
@@corned_pressure 1st point: right, I get that they have an avatar to represent them but like y do u feel u need an avatar to represent u…that’s no different then having my RL logo at the bottom of the screen while I play the game n talk and I have merch later on with the same logo. 2nd Point: I see how it can express someone’s personality…but with most of the avatars I’ve seen, they mostly have eye balls move, sway side to side or have their mouth move…when they laugh the avatar laughs but knowing the expression of a laugh is pretty self explanatory…I still have to imagin what the person looks like laughing….now I know there’s more advanced avatars that literally will walk around the room, dance when u dance, etc. it’s not many of those types (granted I heard they’re super duper more expensive)…so I can kinda understand “showing the expression” thing with THOSE kinda avatars cuz they act like a real person live
Being an upstart vtuber is a high entry cost since a good model will cost you ~1k$. The pretty ones we see from corp vtubers would probably cost 3k$ or more. Auditions happen at least a few times a year and at least for Niji, they sre public. With Brain's current following, he could make it through 👍
The thing I guess I want to know is how did people hear about these VTuber companies? That and how do they mobilize 100 people to subscribe to unknown talent?
I always respect the people like the vtubers who put work into their careers, but idol culture and vtuber fans scare me too much to engage with any of those communities
"People are fans of the agencies to begin with" Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. The agencies do marketing which lets me know a VTuber exists, I fall in love with the VTuber, and that's nice. Then, if the agency treats the VTuber I like well, and they have other VTubers I like, and it's all happy times sea to sea, then I'm very much more inclined to check out anyone new that debuts under them. By that point I'm like "yeah, their headhunters are doing a great job and the managers are keeping the talents happy, I would like to partake in this ecosystem". I am one of the hundreds of thousands that will turn up to watch new Hololive VTubers debut live. On the other side of the coin you have people who will be diehard fans of an agency no matter what, even (or especially) at the expense of the talents. See what happened to Doki (née Selen) and Sayu (née Zaion), and the pure vitriol they get from Nijisanji fans.
One detail that I think didn't get mentioned is these "corp vtubers" aren't your average joe giving streaming/vtuber a try they are usually people with previous experience in content creation and/or professionals in other fields (illustration, singing, voice acting, dancing, gaming, etc.), these companies go through an extensive screening process with thousands of applicants to pick and only 4-5 people to "debut" as a new group, so while viewership isn't guaranteed you have someone capable of standing their ground on their own The benefits for being in a Corps like Hololive is they give you a platform with insane reach ("debut" streams have viewership of around 100k) and work as an agent to get you deals with sponsors, equipment, connections, etc. and a salary besides all the income from sponsors, donations, merch, concerts, etc. With the downside of them owning the rights of the character and you not being able to talk about "past life" stuff because of NDA, BUT sometimes the talents themselves don't want to mix their vtuber persona with their "past life" persona (because of this, it really depends but, it is usually frowned upon to disclose past life info about vtubers especially Corp ones unless explicitly told otherwise)
Most of the girls from hololive EN were once streamers, some with 200 viewers, 100, 50, or just 10. Joining Hololive guarantees you at least a few thousands of people watching anything you do, because of the brand fidelity but also because they know whoever debuts has gone through many auditions and was selected over thousands of other vtubers. Having more views means more people who donate you or sub/member your channel. The corp takes a cut from that, but you will still make more money than before. The good corporations give "debut kits" which is money for all the tech equipment you will need to stream, and of course the vtuber model and rigging which is expensive. You also don't have to worry about merch since they will handle those logistics. Edit: another thing is many of them join (hololive) because of their career plan, you are able to create music, art, or even games with well known people in the industry because of their connections. Also 3D model debuts is a guarantee at least in hololive EN and V4mirai. Nijisanji EN recently started doing them too
I think Koe misunderstood the question of having a new person with zero viewers. They still have to audition for that spot. The agency then markets the entire group before their debut streams.
It's a pretty complicated network down here Brian but rest assured we can ease you into our virtual paradise of chaos and unhinged behavior. Just be aware that once you've really stepped into our world, you're likely never going to leave. So if you ever intend to look deeper down here just remember that the abyss might stare back and when that happens IT'S ALREADY TOO LATE FOR YOU. So do watch your step, stay hydrated AND WELCOME TO THE VTUBER RABBIT HOLE, MOTHERFLUFFER!! HHAAHAHAHAHA!! Korone be praised. 🙏
Explaining vtubers to your father energy
Brian_Father
no dad, you don't understand...
This is funny because Brian has had to explain vtubers to his own father, before his father had revealed that a tool review channel had been doing it for a decade before vtubing got big.
@@Giraffinator is there a VOD of this?
@@raikensmasher I swear he talked about it on-stream, but for the life of me, I cannot find any video of it. His tweet about it is still there, though.
Also, it wasn't a decade before vtubers, it was more like 2016
One MAJOR thing that they didn't mention is that actually having a good (!) vtuber model costs A FUCKTON OF MONEY, so that's part of why some people join those big companies. And to do some major things like full-3D streams (where they can move around freely in 3D in a complex way), they need a studio to use and the companies also provide that (kinda).
Like, the indie side of things is growing a lot nowadays, but folks still require the companies for major stuff. Even indies will sometimes make a deal with companies just to use their studio for a special event for example.
I was just about to come in here and talk about this. It's also important to note that (depending on the agency), you'll get a wider net of people willing to work with you on songs, assets, merch art, etc etc. Also, you have a reliable stable of streamers that will be okay to collab with you for whatever ideas you might have, potentially.
yea 10k+ for a model is common for the high end corpo vtubers
Depending on the agency, you'll be forced to pay for your own model and they will own it.
and ofc all the networking opportunities
This, I wanna highlight. They commission top of the line illustrators and character designers to create the characters, get people to rig them as completely as possible - and they pay the artists *royalites* as well. Repeat every other year when they get a redesign or a 3D Model. It's a machine with a ton of up front costs that are helped by someone investing first.
It feels like explaining vtuber anime girl lore to your uncle during dinner
no, uncle steve, "your oshi" means...
@@bernardogomes9891oshi? So we're just going to assume their pronouns?!
@@ButtonHasher i don't even remember what the other word was lmao 😭😭
@@VeeZzz123 can you give clue about what it is? Cuz there's plenty of vtube words out there for us to remember what the "other" word is
Wrestling is a solid analogy.
You have your indies that make a name for themselves and stick with that for the entire careers.
Indies who get the attention of a promotion's talent scouts, get picked up and start over with a new gimmick, but on a bigger stage.
Sometimes they get drawn in from other fields (IRL streamers/musicians in vtubing compared to MMA/NFL/Influencers in wrestling)
Some stay in that promotion for their entire careers.
Some get sick of the politics and red tape and return to being independent, but bring some of the fans they made at a promotion with them.
As for protecting their anonymity, people can be crazy and there have been cases of "fans" stalking vtubers and going to insane lengths to find who they are and where they live.
This analogy is actually so perfect it is fantastic.
So Vtubers are like Mexican masked wrestlers.
someone once said to me that "everything is wrestling" and I can't stop seeing it in everything that happens around me.
The privacy is the part I understand the most. If you can enjoy the benefits of e-fame without the downside of potential creeps or desperate and deluded stans then more power to you.
Even seeing Kayfab borrowed wholesale to describe vtubers stay in character and rarely break.
Koe didnt really mention this but in addition to having an established audience, companies would provide Live2D models, staff support, and sponsorship connections for the said vtuber.
there's a lot to mention, but Koe had to try and match Brian here after all. I'm sure Koe knows all that, but there's only so much you can explain about Vtubing in a compact manner, especially when the whole thing is barely 8 years or so.
Yeah there’s a ton of behind the scenes stuff that the staff and management are supposed to do for their Vtuber talent.
Just looking at Hololive, management nerds the permits to play the games they stream, finding sponsorships and contacting companies. There’s obviously giving the tech and resources for the talent to stream properly, including 2D and 3D models for everyone. With the songs and music videos, there’s finding all the people involved like the mixers and composers, coreographers as well for ones with dance. Not to mention singing coaches. They also do massive concerts every few months, so that’s an entire new thing. In addition they have an “anime” Hologra, which needs scriptwriters and animators for that. There’s another big project in the works which is basically an ARG open-world game that they’re trying to build.
All this without mentioning merchandise, regular corporate functions like accountants and such, and probably a lot of other stuff as well I forgot to mention.
Corpo Vtubers have a ton of resources poured into them, and there’s a standard of quality with the Hololive experience. Hololive is arguably the highest quality of this stuff, but it’s also extremely hard to get into the agency considering how stacked the cast is.
live2d is standard, the other two is up in the air if the company you sign for stinks
I kinda love those interaction between those two world that I enjoy because it always make me feel like seeing Cyclops shaking hand with Ryu in X-men Vs Street Fighter lol
dude fr!
Treat corpo vtubers debut like a fighting character debut. The corpo is a popular fighting game, and the new vtubers are the new fighters. People are hyped for new fighters and anticipates their releases, just like how existing audiences of the corpo are hyped for new talents, hence establishing players/audiences even before their launch/debut. After the initial launch, people who liked how the fighters play will keep on playing them as their mains, while the people who liked the vtuber's content after their initial debut will continue watching them.
Gormless Fauna mains...I would know...I am one lol
Pretty good analogy
As a vtuber fan I love this convo so much, thank you brian for always being so patient and on-point while coaching, and even trying to understand the vtuber thing which is totally out of their circle.
He just asks questions for reasons and I don’t feel judgement from his words (tho it’s actually easy to do so for ppl new to it, as there’re really many weird things in this culture), that’s very kind.
koe knows so much about vtubers so it's good he's in that team to actually explain all of this lol but yeah he did regret to inform Brian about the fact if you're in a corpo, they will help you with merch, marketing and other expenses too before and after your debut, and as long as you're part of their company. (granted they're a good agency and isn't just using you lol)
Another reason a good agency is sought after is because of legal protection. A giant independent streamer like Pewdiepie can have his original music copyright claimed by some random scammers but if that content is actually owned by an agency, it becomes their legal responsibility to protect their copyright. To uphold their contracts, they have to hire lawyers and pursue legal action against scammers like that. This is not something every independent content creator can do. Especially when a lot of these scammers aren't even in the same country and are operating under different legal systems. You'd have to travel to the other country, possibly hire translators, hire lawyers familiar with that country's legal system, and probably a whole bunch of other stuff I'm not even aware of or maybe that'd be it. Either way, that's a lot for an independent content creator to manage and fiance on their own.
Intro to Vtuber 101 with the vtubers whisper, Dr.Koe
It's kind of like marvel or dc introducing a new hero, they've added this hero into the expanded universe and people who like that expanded universe have a greater chance of looking at this new thing because it's a part of that universe.
I want to see Yagoo walk into the ring like Vince McMahon.
That'd be more of Riku's style, given the latest developments.
But will he have a dance-off against God?
IT WAS ME ALL ALONG
Yagoo spinaroonie when?!
Yagoo more like Triple H
Riku more like Vince
To be clear, the individual still matters. The corp might get them an initial base, but after that they need to put in the worth themselves to grow it. And those viewers are loyal to the streamer more than the corp. If the streamer leaves and continues as a new character, a large portion of the viewers will follow them to their new lives.
funny Brian talk about Vtuber wrestling when there's already vtuber wrestling in WWE game and FuwaMoco FULL ON wrestle in their 3D debut
"do they ever wrestle tho?"
yes, yes they do actually, Brian should check out Fuwamoco's 3D wrestling match, taught/coreographed by real pro wrestlers
There's a pair of twin Vtubers in Hololive called Fuwamoco and they recently got their 3D Model debut and did have a live wrestling match with their 3d avatars full on with Kayfabe and chair hits.
Holo JP had done it before, i think it was Coco who hosted it.
FuwaMoco may open the door for Vtuber wrestling.
We need Brian to see that segment
They got an actual wrestling org to do the choreo for, so the door is open
I hope people recognize how similar pro wrestling and vtubing is.
Except the Holo staff pretty much said never fucking again please.
@@crazymumbo I've seen it used as an analogy for the past 4 years so pretty sure a lot of people see it.
"Don't worry dad, it's not that deep"
The thing that is not that deep:
5:21 never thought how foreign corporate vtubing is outside the community. This interaction provides me a different perspective, it's good.
Koe being the strongest bridge
2:43 If you watched Brawlpro's stream, he was trying to hold in his laughter so bad that it sounded like he farted when Koe started mentioning the companies
This has been the best VTuber summary i have heard (its the only one)
Same lol, but I get it now.
Hearing that they collaborated with the dodgers is honestly so funny. I cant imagine all these middle aged sports fans seeing vtubers on the big screen… 💀
😂 this sounded exactly how my kids talked to me about this
This reminds me of the boy band craze of the 90s and these corporations just form groups and start pumping in money to promote them when they came outta nowhere
The whole Kpop industry is just a scaled up, refined version of that business model.
Brian's comment about how strange it is to see this "parent company cred" phenomenon happen in an online space is very interesting. It reminds me of how netflix replaced cable for a while and now we have 30 different netflixes and it just feels like cable again. Old social patterns reocurring within new spaces.
Agency Vtuber - 9 times out of 10 create the character you stream as, will cover things like merch and collaborations with other companies to increase your character's brand, starting with an established fanbase that's up to the talent themselves to keep/grow. In return, they get a % of the profits from the merch/collabs/donations/subs, need permissions to play certain content, which they may or may not get(and can lose permission for at any time), and must leave the character behind if they leave the company.
Indie Vtbuer - Must hire their own staff to do things like merch/collabs, must build up their base by themselves, but the money they earn they can do with what they will, and can usually play whatever they want whenever they want and with whomever they want.
People typically start as indie, "graduate" their character when they apply and are picked up by an agency to start over as a new character, and if they want to leave the company at any time either retire from the industry for good, or come back to the original character. People who start in an agency will usually come back as a new character, but obviously people recognize voices and mannerisms, so some of them come back to a much bigger audience than they would have had starting fresh.
The other big difference is tech used. Indie tech tends to be much better than agency ones simply because they can freely change whatever they want about their character at any time. It's like the difference between owning a house and renting. Of course, the indie also has to pay the costs of these much fancier models, upwards of +$10k in some examples.
As a Twitch streamer myself, I still getting 1-2 viewers each stream.
In the corpo, you are guaranteed to have at least 100-300+ viewers even if you aren't entertaining enough. Established audience is there to set with it.
They also organized mech to sell to earn money beside SC.
Man. I am old.
In the end everyone falls in the rabbit hole
If vinesauce anti anime man did it why not dad brian f
Brian is doing quite well following along on the topic. He also touched on some of the pros and cons of being a corporate vs. independent. Love these talks especially from those not familiar with another area of content creations.
I've been loving Sajam's Slam and learning all this was really eye-opening.
Adding to some of the comments here, vtubers sign with agencies so they can perform concerts full 3D concerts. Hololive, Nijisanji, Brave Group, and especially a lot middle-sized agencies in Japan put out multiple concerts year round. Hololive already had 2 major English concerts in the US this year and last year, plus a few smaller shows at conventions like at Dreamhack Melbourne.
The only way to get these concerts off the ground is access to a full motion-capture studios. Hololive, Nijisanji, and Brave all have in-house studios that they give access to their talents, which is why aspiring vtubers work hard to get into these companies. Smaller companies can access 3rd party studios, but the cost is high when you are competing against movie productions and video game publishers, so many don't bother. Indies have it the toughest: very few have the reach and connections to get access to motion capture studios, nevermind the funds.
Kson mentioned when she did her 3D anniversary a few years back that the cost was about $60,000 USD at that time.
When Henya did, same she spent a lot of money to do her 3D in a studio, and a bunch of VShojo "showed up" I think they used their own 3D set up at home to record stuff so they could embed that into the 3D while talking to her live. Either that or Haruka dna Zentreya flew to Japn to be there in person IRL. (Henya is so timid IRL I don't thik so she's probably more comfortable with them being online.
It can be very hard to make it as an indie vtuber. so many talented people never get their lucky break, and stagnate around 5-10k subscribers. Getting accepted into a corporate group skips that step, and skyrockets them into 100s of thousands of subscribers instantly, so long as they have the talent to maintain the viewership.
A couple people have also mentioned it, but the cost of vtubing is getting higher and higher to be able to compete in the market. High fidelity models with good rigging/animation can cost up to $10k US dollars, not including the physical tech to make quality tracking possible, and most times, getting into an industry vtuber position, your character and model gets given to you.
theres also the ease of collaborations, since you will have a network of dozens of people in your specific group to do streams and content with, and you dont have to go out of your way to try and make connections the way a normal streamer would.
I've become big fan of everyone on this team. However, I have no idea about what they do outside of Sajam Slam. Koefficient is one cool dude
We, Dragoon were talking about it too. Discussions were like can she play at remote place and, even if vtubers are allow to do so, will her privacy will be safe to go to the Twitch con ?
All came down to if It is worth it. Personally, i do not think it is worth all the potential bs.
75% she will still probably attend the Twitch con incognito to meet her friends and the fellows. I hope she do.
She should really touch grass ❤
another thing that isn't often talked about about being corporate vs independent is the level of support that you (theoretically, with a good company) get. like, if you're independent, and something goes wrong, you have to figure it out yourself. if you're independent and want to start making merchandise, you have to negotiate with manufacturers and shipping companies, you need to commission designers or do it yourself, you need to do this all by yourself up front, and learn on the fly and hope that you're good enough to come out ahead instead of being taken advantage of. when you are in a corporation, (again, when the corp is good) you would get support, people who now how to help with issues, industry contacts for merchandise, experiences people who are better at negotiating and getting permissions for things, stuff like that. yes, an independent vtuber could hire a manager or personal assistant, and hire additional helpers to do that sort of support work, but as we've recently seen with doki, the less 'hands off' you are when independent, the easier ti is for you to be taken advantage of. and while it's not impossible for a more structured corporation to also take advantage of their talents, it's more difficult due to there being more people to notice it and take action against it.
which path to follow is mostly going to be dependent on the persons individual desires and skills, but despite the recent trends, corporations do provide value to the talents that join them, they aren't entirely negative after the initial debut, which exceptions made for the black companies
I found Koe years ago when I was looking for content on BB Cross Tag Battle. I mean other than that both Brian F and Koe both do fighting game content, I did not expect to see them interact lol. Pleasant surprise
Another thing to touch on that people rarely talk about is that vtubers are often actually more authentic than IRL streamers. It sounds counterintuitive, but that mask A) allows the person to feel more free to express themselves, and B) *forces* them to reach deeper into themselves in order to make that connection with their audience. It’s a trade off. You don’t get to see their face or know their real name, but you get more of the person underneath. The realest and most raw streamers are vtubers, *because* they have sense of distance and anonymity. Masks make people less inhibited, and it’s the same for vtubers. All they have is their personality, with no physical presence to fall back on. Sure, they’re often exaggerated and playing a character, but they still put much of their real selves into it.
6:48 a lot of applicants wc aspire to be part of an agency had an experience being an indie, although that do not necessarily means those who do not have the experience can not apply. It's just a plus.
the best way to explain it imo , is like imagine old times dc/marvel. whenever a new movie would come out, the marvel /dc fans would swarm to it, just cause they re fans of the brand.
while releasing a movie as a new studio. ll be alot harder to gather a audience.
Brian's comparison of a vtuber debuting with a corp to a new TV show premiering on ABC is one I never really thought of. But yeah, a good vtuber agency will absolutely boost a talent's reach: the newest generation of HololiveEN got their Silver Play Buttons before they even had their first stream.
Following the analogy, wrestling matches for Vtubers are collabs.
Yeah interesting chatter there... I do think how important the agency is depends. Hololive and Nijisanji are the big ones that pretty much guarantee a bunch of people will check out the stream. Some smaller agencies are trying to become something like that, but being honest I think the really big agencies are pretty unique - I've followed a vtuber or two from smaller agencies and just not gotten into the *agency* as a whole, and individual talents might just go viral while others don't benefit that much. On the other hand, I'm big on Hololive and the events they put together... But they're also one of the biggest groups.
Another point: Japanese companies, with their idol-adjacency, commonly do very large castings looking for people with singing skills etc, with songs and concerts being a large part. Combined with a looot of agency control what to play/not to play/even talk about and say, in order to not offend sponsors or even more deranged parts of the fan base.
In contrast, western companies/indies seem more relaxed/ often have more varied background, more focus on talking/gaming, i.e. more like classical variety streamers.
In short, asian corpos commonly own the whole IP, the persons behind the character are tightly bound by contracts and NDA's, not being allowed to say they are/were this or that personality before/after the organization contract.
I love the moment Brian realizes what he got himself into, but he's so committed at that point that he couldn't back out.
So vtuber companies are a viable option because when the whole company will hype you up for your debut, the debut stream is essentially an introduction stream and other talents in the company will ofter restream the debut streams, that's how they "guarantee" initial views, secondly the company usually has connections to artists, sponsors and such. And its on you as a person to decide if the drawbacks of the tight contracts and NDAs are worth it.
Brian asking the questions I'm too afraid to ask. I had no clue the vtuber lore is this deep
It’s worth noting that Nijisanji is a sinking ship since they mistreat their talent
Corpos usually sign small indie vtubers and elevate them to the status of major corporate vtuber under their new identity. The interest from fans goes like, "I saw clips of this vtuber, I should check them out" to "Oh, this vtuber I like collabs a lot with these other people from their group, I should check them out" to "Okay, my favorite vtuber is part of this group, I like the group in general too. I should check out these newly debuting talents in the group."
Man Brian talking about if FaZe would sign people with 0 viewers and that was literally early days of vtubing.
I posted the "It's Anime WWE" in the chat that made Koe LMAO. Didn't think that part of the stream would get clipped, lol
I wonder if Brian_f will start his Vtuber fan journey like Koefficient 😂
7:55 FuwaMoco from Hololive En did 3D wrestling with full body tracking.
🙏 genuinely glad y’all put this together bc i unironically learned so much
Brian actually made an excellent point I have never really considered. It's like Television all over again. But I would argue that Esports has brand loyalty in a similar fashion, though at a smaller scale.
on the "past life" stuff: in hololive in particular, some of the talents actually had a big name for themselves before joining
I'm honestly surprised Brian, just from how Koe explained it, got to the same wrestling analogy as a lot of other people (ex. Garnt from Trash Taste) did 4 years ago when Vtubing exploded in the EN scene.
I feel old, as big papa brine said, just make content and talk about yourself on TH-cam etc, to hopefully get in the algorithm.
Check out my low effort TH-cam content 😅
But if Doki was with an agency I wouldn’t trust she was a real person, people can remain private through an avatar, but being with an established agency and starting with nothing is…. An acting gig?
It is essentially a full time acting job. Although most vtubers (even corporate ones) will drop the pretense and act as themselves while only maintaining their persona names and maybe some of very simple lore.
Fwiw Doki didn't exactly start with nothing, she had slowly grown a modest following on Twitch before she joined an agency. However, that was when her popularity really exploded, and it luckily followed her after her messy separation from said-agency.
@@Alllex I feel like most people who go into these corps are actually like regular, but small, streamers. i.e they already show that they at least know the bare minimum to entertain an audience, they just need for them to show up and there's where being part of the Brand™ helps.
Of course it's not only that plenty of random people from all different sorts of life end up joining Nijisanji and Hololive
Eventually, if fans are loyal enough, it becomes less like acting and more like playing up their own personality for the audience. Obviously some level of a 4th wall has to be established, but for the most part (excluding the idol culture), a lot of them are like real life youtubers who commit to a persona for their image.
To give a bit of perspective that might make sense for those of us that have been around longer, Vtuber corporations are kind of like the current gen version of Machinima or Screw Attack. The company gives you an initial bump in exposure, a stable paycheck, resources that'd be much harder to acquire alone and a degree of protection from the fickle whims of the platform. In exchange you make videos/streams that they get a cut from on top of other work you do for them, and they own the IP you're working with. That's the theory at least.
The not showing your face thing is mostly because people on the internet are *weird* and a lot of the culture is inherited from the Japanese idol scene which historically has had a lot of unhealthy fixation issues.
@@dragoknighte48The no face-reveal thing is also important for “immersion”. Vtuber companies are selling “real anime” not people pretending to be anime characters if that makes any sense. IRL drama, face-reveals break that immersion that vtubers corpos try to sell.
Also, while there are certainly some pretty vtubers IRL who have face-revealed, it’s sort of a given that to a vtuber audience, their anime models are more attractive than they are IRL. For female streamers particularly, looks matter to male viewers. Vtubers sort of level the playing field and personality/entertainment value become more important than IRL physical. attractiveness. All the top female streamers are currently vtubers who don’t have a public IRL persona, so take that as you will.
"Do they ever wrestle?"
Actually, yes.
Going through this whole thing, I understand how foreign of a concept it can be now
Debut is basically the most important moment in the career of a VTuber, all eyes are on you.
Time to drag Brian into Vtuberverse. I too was an ignorant vtuber boomer (am older than Brian) until 2022 when I saw Pomu's Metal Gear Solid streams.
The real curse of consuming any Vtuber content is that your recommendations will be permanently screwed.
@@AirLancerliterally going through this right now lol
The brainrot is real
I still do not understand anything about Vtubers after watching this. Most relatable Brian has ever been.
We need Brian F to watch the FuwaMoco 3D debut, where they actually did wrestling
One reason I really love watching Brian is his genuine desire to learn about things
I’m glad u posted this…I’ve gotten SOME clear understanding on vtubers…I still don’t see the point in it…I’ve always thought if u don’t want to be revealed just don’t use a face cam and that’s it…but some of this makes sense info in this vid makes sense
@@corned_pressure 1st point: right, I get that they have an avatar to represent them but like y do u feel u need an avatar to represent u…that’s no different then having my RL logo at the bottom of the screen while I play the game n talk and I have merch later on with the same logo. 2nd Point: I see how it can express someone’s personality…but with most of the avatars I’ve seen, they mostly have eye balls move, sway side to side or have their mouth move…when they laugh the avatar laughs but knowing the expression of a laugh is pretty self explanatory…I still have to imagin what the person looks like laughing….now I know there’s more advanced avatars that literally will walk around the room, dance when u dance, etc. it’s not many of those types (granted I heard they’re super duper more expensive)…so I can kinda understand “showing the expression” thing with THOSE kinda avatars cuz they act like a real person live
7:47 who is gonna tell him about the fuwamoco 3D stream
Brian got it on point with the WWE comparison. I've always seen it that way too.
I get to kick start my streaming career with zero precedence AND hide my face?
Sign me up.
theres a weird ven diagram between vtubers and empire arcadia. I just haven't figured it out yet.
Brian asking for a Vtuber smackdown has never seen a full vtuber collab playing Mario Kart or Pummel Party.
Being an upstart vtuber is a high entry cost since a good model will cost you ~1k$. The pretty ones we see from corp vtubers would probably cost 3k$ or more. Auditions happen at least a few times a year and at least for Niji, they sre public. With Brain's current following, he could make it through 👍
The thing I guess I want to know is how did people hear about these VTuber companies? That and how do they mobilize 100 people to subscribe to unknown talent?
Doki is my tribal chief I acknowledge her ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾
I always respect the people like the vtubers who put work into their careers, but idol culture and vtuber fans scare me too much to engage with any of those communities
"People are fans of the agencies to begin with"
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
The agencies do marketing which lets me know a VTuber exists, I fall in love with the VTuber, and that's nice. Then, if the agency treats the VTuber I like well, and they have other VTubers I like, and it's all happy times sea to sea, then I'm very much more inclined to check out anyone new that debuts under them. By that point I'm like "yeah, their headhunters are doing a great job and the managers are keeping the talents happy, I would like to partake in this ecosystem". I am one of the hundreds of thousands that will turn up to watch new Hololive VTubers debut live.
On the other side of the coin you have people who will be diehard fans of an agency no matter what, even (or especially) at the expense of the talents. See what happened to Doki (née Selen) and Sayu (née Zaion), and the pure vitriol they get from Nijisanji fans.
One detail that I think didn't get mentioned is these "corp vtubers" aren't your average joe giving streaming/vtuber a try they are usually people with previous experience in content creation and/or professionals in other fields (illustration, singing, voice acting, dancing, gaming, etc.), these companies go through an extensive screening process with thousands of applicants to pick and only 4-5 people to "debut" as a new group, so while viewership isn't guaranteed you have someone capable of standing their ground on their own
The benefits for being in a Corps like Hololive is they give you a platform with insane reach ("debut" streams have viewership of around 100k) and work as an agent to get you deals with sponsors, equipment, connections, etc. and a salary besides all the income from sponsors, donations, merch, concerts, etc.
With the downside of them owning the rights of the character and you not being able to talk about "past life" stuff because of NDA, BUT sometimes the talents themselves don't want to mix their vtuber persona with their "past life" persona (because of this, it really depends but, it is usually frowned upon to disclose past life info about vtubers especially Corp ones unless explicitly told otherwise)
Most of the girls from hololive EN were once streamers, some with 200 viewers, 100, 50, or just 10. Joining Hololive guarantees you at least a few thousands of people watching anything you do, because of the brand fidelity but also because they know whoever debuts has gone through many auditions and was selected over thousands of other vtubers.
Having more views means more people who donate you or sub/member your channel. The corp takes a cut from that, but you will still make more money than before.
The good corporations give "debut kits" which is money for all the tech equipment you will need to stream, and of course the vtuber model and rigging which is expensive.
You also don't have to worry about merch since they will handle those logistics.
Edit: another thing is many of them join (hololive) because of their career plan, you are able to create music, art, or even games with well known people in the industry because of their connections. Also 3D model debuts is a guarantee at least in hololive EN and V4mirai. Nijisanji EN recently started doing them too
Koe has gotta be talking about Melody when he said vtuber s I never thought I'd meet IRL that was a great story lol
I think Koe misunderstood the question of having a new person with zero viewers. They still have to audition for that spot. The agency then markets the entire group before their debut streams.
it is too close for us to see him react to some vtubers clip
It's time for Brian_V
DownFromTheRafters? A WWEC addict.
Show brain the mococos 3D debut… lol they wrestle
Funny how he compares it with WWE, because that is how I always see it
7:22 yeah 😂 wrestling is a good parallel of vtubing kayfabe is one of the terms the vtubing community borrowed from em.
I love how Brian is like a dad while his team are screaming toddlers
Koeficient is truly the Vtuber Whisperer
Yep this is in clips i figured lol
one. of. us.
one. of. us.
one. of. us.
Brian’s Connor arc.
I've been calling it wrestling for the past 4 years, for the better and worse lmfao
Brian_F Vtuber debut when?
i dont even know about vtubers but i feel like its not hard to understand the agency angle
Who's gonna tell him about fuwamoco?
This was legitimately informative lol
Davis Maria Gonzalez David Martin Sharon
It's a pretty complicated network down here Brian but rest assured we can ease you into our virtual paradise of chaos and unhinged behavior. Just be aware that once you've really stepped into our world, you're likely never going to leave. So if you ever intend to look deeper down here just remember that the abyss might stare back and when that happens IT'S ALREADY TOO LATE FOR YOU. So do watch your step, stay hydrated AND WELCOME TO THE VTUBER RABBIT HOLE, MOTHERFLUFFER!! HHAAHAHAHAHA!!
Korone be praised. 🙏