Calling it right now: You will blow UP at some point. Your videos have such GREAT production quality, you have a great voice & high quality microphone and your tone of voice and "the music of your speech" is really enjoyable. On top of that the topics seem well researched and properly argued for. Love it!
I am watching a few TH-cam videos a day about TBC content for quite a while now. And if someone says "you are the best" I can just add "by far". Great work, keep it up, love to see more of it!
Think this has summarised perfectly why TBC class design was the peak of wow history! That together with the variety of dungeons, raids and pvp make it THE best version of wow. Awesome video! Retail developers could learn a lot from listening to this.
So I agree the part of class design was at it's peak, the utility. Rotations still really sucked though, too many classes just do one thing, giving every spec some sort of challenge in their rotations + the utility would have been by far the best class design ever.
Very well thought out video man, i've been watching your for a couple weeks now and i gotta say you're the best of the "New wow classic channels" that i've seen. Keep it rolling yo.
Every time I see one of your videos I feel like like in watching a high production media info video, except better. Great stuff definitely a go to channel for my wow content
It's a hard balance to strike. I want to provide some practical use videos to people, but I absolutely love talking about game design too much. It was really nice to revisit this and I have more design discussions planned.
I agree that giving each class AND spec a special raid wide buff is so good and makes tbc special. It makes everyone feel impotent and makes for more diversity in the world and especially in raids, since each spec essentielly provides irreplacable value.
Obviously, the specs that bring buffs to Raid (depending on the composition) contribute much more than purely DPS. However it depends on each guild (and Raid Leader’s patience) because stacking locks/hunters is more easily to do than "math".
Thankfully for that raid leader there exists hundreds of sources that have already done the math for them. Though I get what you mean. I was in a guild in TBC, for a very short period of time, where the raid leader wanted to stack more Holy Priests simply because our current HPriest kept topping logs. Completely ignoring all the reasons why you'd want Shamans and Paladins and Druids lol. To be fair, he also made me reroll Demonology because "Felguard was better than I thought".
I'm gonna site paladin as my example. In classic the only thing you bring as a paladin was the blessings and maybe JoW/JoL if the raid can afford the debuff slots, a big problem was that all those things can be brought by a holy paladin and they can then serve a mana efficient healer and cleanser. In tbc, your ret pally now not only does more damage, but can also bring 3% crit chance against the foe (Improv. Crusader), 10% Holy Damage + 2% all damage for their group (Sanctity Aura) and can safely keep up all the Judgment debuffs for the other paladins so that the other paladins can focus on other roles (Crusader Strike). So not only is it's damage competitive, but it's also bringing utility that allows one to go "Yes, I specifically need a ret paladin" instead of going "The holy paladin can handle it." Holy Paladin was already relatively solid, so ofc it didn't need as many changes, so it just got efficiency reworks in a way that wasn't as broken as classic, but still incredibly potent in the hands of a skilled paladin. Prot Paladin already has some value in classic for their ability to tank dungeons and even certain raids fights and their trash, so all they needed where tweaks that allowed them to competitively do the role, which they got in better itemization, mana sustain fixes, and two tools they sorely lacked (Taunt and Ranged Pull). The prot or holy can also technically bring the crusader judgment crit talent as well, but either way the Ret Pally can maintain it for them so they aren't either compelled to whack the enemy periodically (holy) or loose some of their threat generation by not doing a damaging judgment (prot)
This is a really great example of a class being able to provide certain value, but certain specs being able to further enhance those values in meaningful ways. It's a great outlook on class utility vs spec utility and that alone could be the subject of a fun discussion. I appreciate the detailed post. I love reading people's interpretation of the game.
I'm 100% planning to play at launch! I'm trying to stream more right now so that I can get more comfortable with it so that people can play and chat during TBC launch. I can't wait to stream then. Going to be a busy week but I'm currently also working on ways to streamline my video process a bit more so I can stream more often.
@@ZerbraxiWoW No worries :) I recently discovered you and i really enjoy your content. You cover things in a different way from other TH-camrs and it is really lovely, and fun and interesting :) Keep it up!
I think there is difference between a "support class" and a "hybrid class" for the purpose of the hybrid tax. In a minmax setting, the value that the boomkin's buffs brings isn't enough to justify a raid-spot in a minmaxed raid. The value the boomie brings is supposed to be evened out by their ability to throw out a heal in an emergency, or go bear and taunt a lose mob. The hybrid tax is built around the expectation that this is utility you bring to the raid. When you don't need this utility any more, you are left with only the underwhelming chicken, who just outputs low enough DPS that the support they add isn't enough to justify brining them over a better class/spec.
I wouldn't ever claim that Blizzard perfected the balance here. In fact, I even pointed out that elements like Shadowbolt's raw power completely undermines possibly synergy between Fire Mage and Fire Warlocks. The example you gave with Boomkin for example is the victim of a balance problem, not a design problem. I was focusing on the "design" element in this discussion. Tuning of the Boomkin could be done to easily match a closer and more purposeful role to the spec while also keeping them lower DPS than other classes.
Longtime fan. But the reason people dislike the hybrid tax is that soooo many classes have some form of utility, even pure dps classes. Looking to modern expansions, shroud for rogues is arguably the strongest utility ability in the game.. oh and they pump xD
Oh I completely understand that. I was specifically using the Hybrid Tax principle here in relation to TBC. This isn't a problem in TBC, and as a principle on it's own, it's a non-issue as so many other games can prove. The issue with modern wow, at least in terms of Utility, is that the "hybrids" are no longer defined by their utility or support ability. Instead, they are also just another DPS that can provide other roles. If an Elemental Shaman's primary purpose is DPS and a Mage can do more DPS while ALSO bringing Time Warp and Ring of Frost for example, the shaman is irrelevant. If Mage's didn't have Time Warp, then Shamans utility increases and now their lower damage is a balancing act of sacrificing personal performance for that of the group. I kinda joked about it in the video, but as someone who played a Warlock in TBC, I would beg for the hybrid classes to be in my group every raid lol. I was desperate to have a Balance Druid and Elly Shaman in my party at all times. That's a good "class relationship" to have I think.
I actually think turning short duration buffs to be raid wide was a mistake long term. Having raid and party composition be important layers in and of themselves I think adds a lot of uniqueness to each players raid experience.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Yeah mate, I'll want to be in my group to haha. You have a great video format and I know these videos take a lot of time to do and wish you the best on youtube. That's a Sub from me.
Nice new set up :D Even if I vastly prefer class game-play in WotLK I was indeed saddened to see everything getting homogenized regarding utility, but it's mainly because raids had a 10man option now, so there would've been less options... hergh.
Thanks! I wasn't sure if people would like it or not. Might use that setup in future. I actually think the gameplay of Wrath of the Lich King overall is better than TBC. Class rotations filled in across the board and the age of 1 or 2 button specs was officially dead. Even all the way up to, and including MoP, I really enjoyed "playing" the class. However, Blizzard homogenizing classes and removing so much uniqueness was a real shame and I don't think there needed to be that trade. 1 of the major things I would've liked to see changed about Wrath would be to abandon the idea of "bring the player NOT the class" and instead continue the philosophy of "bring the player AND the class." Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy 14 have mostly nailed that design so it can clearly be done.
@@ZerbraxiWoW It was probably another thing they didn't want to deal with going forward, it was also the time when profession specs were drop alltogether if I remember correctly. Now that I think of it, the class diversity sort of dies the further you go in TBC, since most bonuses provided by hybrid classes get overshadowed by raw stats over time. I joined my first serious guilde during T6 and I remember that except for mana batteries, having another warlock or fire mage was still better than getting a moonkin or an elemental. Except maybe for totem twist enhancement, melees were all over that one since wind-fury is extra damage no matter your gear xD Regarding GW2 and FF14 it has its toll too however. in FF14 even the HL content is managed to be done with pretty much any comp, which makes the end game sort of easier overall, but still very fun and diverse obviously. In GW2 they pushed it so far that there was no viable options for tanks and healers except for Chronomancer and Druid respectively, *for literal years* which was very frustrating when other classes had potential but were never reworked to fit on the task.
Players taking actions against their self-interest assumes that their intended goal to get out of the game is fun. But, fun is not the reason why they play WoW. Competitiveness, the ability to feel exceptional at something, or wanting to be a part of a group are closer to the underlying reasons why people are willing to stick around with time-consuming, tedious, un-fun systems.
I really disagree that "fun" is the defining factor. Enjoyment, pleasure, a feeling of belonging, people will actively behave against their own self interests in order to satiate those desires, and video games can be a catalyst for obtaining those feelings. For example, the AP grind in Legion and BFA was practically universally hated, especially by the hardcore players. The most hardcore finds "fun" out of competition and they actively went out of their way to do an activity they disliked to be able to stay competitive in an area of the game they enjoyed. I really think the idea of "fun" has become so twisted and especially when applied to a players enjoyment of a game, it tends to be used in a way that severely narrows what video games are actually capable of.
If they made BM's Ferocious Inspiration be 2%/4%/6% but not stack (or something like that) so BM stacking wouldn't be so advantageous and somehow found a way to not need to stack Locks I think TBC would have been perfect. That being said, given how unbalanced Vanilla was v. what we got in TBC, teh fact they got that close to perfection is insane. Oh, I guess they could have found a way not to stack 3 Resto Shaman too, but given how powerful Lust/Heroism is I am not sure how they could have done that. With your comparison to Shadowlands, as far as I can figure the only unique raid wide utility is Balance Druid AOE on the Council of Blood fight in CN...and that might be a stretch. So _some_ utility on one fight out of 10 might as well not even exist.
From a DPS perspective the Class utility that exists is basically who has the best immunities, the rest is mostly just straight DPS. Shaman tend to be the exception in Shadowlands but it's still very minor compared to TBC. Those Ferocious Inspiration ideas could be interesting. Part of their stacking problem though is mostly just down to how powerful Steady Shot is, mostly the same with Lock. If SB and SS were nerfed slightly they'd still be best probably, but utility would look even better for other classes by comparison.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Agreed on Steady Shot and BM Hunters, but what is unique about Ferocious Inspiration is that because it stacks, the utility 2 BM hunters bring to the group is better than 1 where most specs/classes can't say that. Like two Enhancement Shaman in a group doesn't double their buffs for the group, two Imp EA Rogues don't double their Armor Pen of the Raid, etc. So it's not just that they bring huge DPS, they also buff their group by a stacking 3% which basically means you will want 3 or even 4 in your group. They probably need a DPS nerf too to prevent stacking being the optimal config. Locks I think just come down to they do too much damage, so scaling that back a bit is probably all they'd need to do. I still think you are stuck with 5 Shaman though know matter what you do, so it's probably impossible to build it such that you'd have all 24 specs in a raid + 1 floater...although TBC comes pretty darn close. ;)
Before classic launched everyone said warriors won't go deeps wounds because it takes up a debuff slot. Classic launches and it's the exact fuckign opposite. Every warrior is going deep wounds. Just one of the reason why I don't give any prelaunch theorycrafting any consideration at all. But it's fun to listen too and in the end i'm gonna play the game the way I enjoy it and I really don't care about the meta.
I like to talk about the design and about how things were back in 2007-2008 ish. However, I try to avoid "real theorycrafting" at the moment for 2 reasons. First, Classic has proven that all of "what we know" could shatter upon launch. Second, I'm in a similar boat about not caring about the meta. I've already beaten all of the content back then, so I'm just going to goof around and do whatever I feel like come TBC. I might end up discussing some meta builds and min-maxing for those who do care about it, but there's so much that even the Classic TBC Beta has shown to have changed relative to what we thought. I don't mind being wrong about something, but I really don't want to release information that is incorrect that could've just held off for a couple weeks to get the real info from the beta.
I just feel like melee dps classes got hit by the nerf hammer a bit too hard in TBC. Blizzard knew ranged classes like hunter and warlock under-performed in vanilla so they buffed them a lot in TBC. Meanwhile, after dominating in vanilla melee DPS like warriors and rogues are laughably bad as dps in TBC, especially in the beginning of the game, even though they bring even less utility than warlocks/hunters. Warriors and rogues can bring just a small physical dmg boost to the raid, whereas warlocks have curses/summons/healthstones while hunters can misdirect (which is crucial for many fights) and have traps + scorpid sting. Blizzard tried to offset the imbalance in vanilla by creating a new imbalance in TBC, which is probably the only thing I don't like about TBC. But I guess no game is perfect and a perfectly balanced MMO is almost certainly oxymoron. Still, I think the most fun classes to play should be the ones that are overpowered. Classic WoW has so successful because pumping as a warrior is actually fun and engaging. Pumping as a warlock or hunter is insanely boring. So from that perspective I don't know if Classic TBC will be as successful as vanilla even though there is definitely more class and spec variety in it.
This is a very interesting point. I actually share the same criticism with the rotation gameplay around Warlocks and Hunters. I find Survival to be a bit more enjoyable since that rotation doesn't follow the 1 button macro rotation, but BM is an utter bore if Steady Shot spam continues. Blizzard does seem to have broken the 1 shot macro in Beta, so that could definitely make BM a bit more engaging to play. Warlock is funny too because I actually think Affliction is a BLAST to play and I loved playing Aff during t4/t5. Fire Warlock is also actually pretty fun. SB spam is a complete bore though and the main reason I never want to play Lock in TBC ever again lol. Balance is definitely such a crazy subject. I think Classic TBC will still be incredibly successful the gameplay loop is a bit more involved and I think we'll see that drive players. However, those who are rerolling Lock and BM hunter to be Flavor of the Month top DPS might be surprised. To be fair though, Mage rotation in Vanilla is boring as sin and people seemed to love it, myself included, so who knows. That might be because Mage has a load of utility and weird abilities though.
@@ZerbraxiWoW You can see on the so-called fresh crusade realm (dragonfang EU) most people have actually rolled warrior or hybrid classes, while warlocks are one of the least played classes even though they are OP in both PvP and PvE. Maybe it is the class fantasy that is not so appealing for warlocks or just people don't want to feel so overpowered in a game because it removes the challenge. At any rate I still think hitting enemies from melee range is more fun and interactive than standing stationary behind and casting spells, unfortunately TBC screws melee classes royally.
Find a list that lets you enter all the classes you're considering in a list, and then will randomly pick one for you. Once you're given the choice of a class, you very quickly respond to whether or not you ACTUALLY want to play that class.
What bothers me most is how people are so against trying things and only listening to the meta. They claim they want a game about discovery, but instead, it's just a game where they read the reference manual. I'd rather it be both.
There's something truly wonderful about discovering things for yourself. While the meta will always exist, and while performing to your fullest is definitely a joy, there's also a time to shut that part of your brain off and just go explore.
@@andrewshandle The best unique utility a rogue can bring and what they can lean into to justify a raid spot is Distract and PVP gloves deadly throw interrupt. Distract is massive for Mt. Hyjal as you can give everyone more time to drink before boss pulls. And being the only class with 2x physical interrupts is key for Illidari Council progression where you can singlehandedly lockdown the priest boss.
@@andrewshandle Ya I actually think that since people know how strong Feral and Prot Pally is going to be come TBC that we might see Imp EA make a comback.
Gameplay wise other classes started to lose a lot of uniqueness. Every DPS now had reliable, continual AOE which encouraged guilds to just pick the best AOE class. Frost Mages suddenly had Replenishment, but thankful for Shadow Priests Fire and Arcane was just so good that Frost never really existed in PvE. Overall a lot of the classes just started to share specialties. It wasn't the most egregious during Wrath, but it set the stage to strip more and more uniqueness and utility as time went on.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Aye it seems really interesting, not sure if I get to keep Role leader grank when I swap to a class that I've never played. But than again as couldn't be that different - at least it's still a caster xD
Ya this is a tough one that I think goes beyond guild leaders and officers. If other players in your guild start getting world buffs, even if they're not mandatory, then more and more people start to feel compelled to get them. ESPECIALLY if you ever wipe where people having World Buffs would've prevented it. It's a very complicated issue that mostly seems to be a social one, though some gameplay limitations could alleviate some of the effects to the meta.
This really emphasizes how unique elements in classes and/or specs helps the game as a whole. Lately, WoW has dropped this concept and has just homogenized all these unique aspects and I believe that is one of the reasons players drop Shadowlands. Of course there is the content drought as well but that is one separate can of worms.
Ya, unfortunately homogenization is also largely the players fault. Balancing the game around nothing by DPS raid performance has twisted not only the players perspective of "performance", but also pigeonholed Blizzard into ensuring that everyone can be competitive in DPS so that all players can "equally" perform. The nuance of support and utility are largely removed, and I think it's hurt class design a lot. Final Fantasy 14's class design is so clearly inspired by older World of Warcraft and I think they still have some of the best Class Design any MMO has ever seen.
Despite all the hostility towards teh World Buff meta.. yeah I quit classic BWL it's take too much time PvP'ing while trying to get world buffs. I should have rolled on the pve server.
Could be really silly and do what I did and completely level a whole new character on a PvE server and leave my original character on PvP. Don't recommend lol
I believe I heard Kevin Jordan, class designer for Vanilla WoW, make the exact same claim. I'm happy that Blizzard iterated upon their class design over time, but some of the fundamentals are too important to lose, and unfortunately many classes have lost them.
@@ZerbraxiWoW i use it to lvl my alts in areas I know I might die. Like Barrens harpies or stone talon goblins or the stv trolls. And I sometimes full buff my t3 rogue to get like 10k hp in pvp and just mess around for a bit til I get dispelled or ganged by 5 people
I'll disagree with your definition of "utility". Utility in my opinion means additional effects or tools that serves your party/raid outside of your role assignment. Examples: - Retribution Paladins bringing 3% crit isn't utility, Retribution Paladins are DPS'ers and their role is to contribute to the raid dps. However Retribution Paladins (all Paladins) also have Lay on Hands, Blessings and at later expansions instant Flash of Light and passive healing through Divine Storm (WotLK) which add to raid survivability. The role of the Retribution Paladin isn't and never will be to help the survivability of the raid, so anything that Retribution Paladins can do to increase survivability is utility. - Balance Druids bringing 3% physical hit isn't utility, again it's the role of the Balance Druid to contribute to the raid dps. However Balance Druids having Innervate, Tranquility, Combat ress, decent offhealing and so on *IS* utility because they do things that their role isn't specifically tasked to do. On the topic of "Hybrid tax" or "Utility tax", I think it's a fair thing to have. You're trading the raw DPS of a "pure dps" class/spec for the increased survivability and sustainability of your raid, sometimes that tradeoff is absolutely needed if a boss is really hard to heal ...and sometimes you need the extra damage because the boss is on an extremely tight enrage timer. If a class/spec could bring S tier DPS and S tier utility then they'd be, by definition, overpowered. However if a class/spec was S tier DPS and C tier utility that would be okay, likewise if a class/spec was B tier DPS and B tier utility then it would also be fine- and finally if a class/spec was C tier healing but S tier utility (Holy Paladins in TBC) then that's also fine. As a Ret Paladin for over 12 years I've had many ups and downs, from being F tier dps and C tier Utility to being A tier DPS and S tier utility. The most fun I've ever had as a Ret Paladin, was when I did fair dps (B tier) and had amazing utility (S tier). As I've said in podcasts and argued in community threads it's not the DPS that you do that is the most important, it's the dps you do while *CORRECTLY* using all your utility to help the raid. As a "hybrid" or "utility spec" your job isn't to do the most damage in the raid, if that's your goal then you should play a Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue or any other "pure dps class". Your job as a "hybrid" or "utility spec" is to use your tools properly when needed ...and then do the most damage you can, if you fail to use your tools that could've saved someone from dying (regardless if it was their fault or not) but you top DPS then you've missed the point of your role. It's the same with Druids (and later Warlocks and DKs) who refuse to spend a global CD to combat ress someone because it's a personal DPS loss, I can guarantee you that the 1-2 seconds you spend on combat ressing someone far *(FAR)* outweighs the loss of personal DPS loss you take. For WoW I think Mists of Pandaria had the best class design as a whole, all talents and specializations had interesting quirks and uses. Yes there were balance issues, like DoT's snapshotting, but for the most part there was a spot and use for nearly all tools at one (or multiple) raid encounter(s). Yes the artstyle and story of MoP wasn't great (which is opinion based anyways), but I genuinely hold MoP as the best WoW expansion from both a Raiding and PvP point of view.
This is a totally fair disagreement to have. Utility is such a vague word at the end of the day. I mean the English definition of the word is literally, "the state of being useful". That's INCREDIBLY subjective. However I see your point. I'm clearly looking at utility in a wider, more vague perspective. If I get this right, you're making the argument that anything outside the "established role" of that player is utility. So a Priest's Power Word Barrier might not be considered utility, but Power Infusion would be. Am I getting you correct? I find it interesting you brought up snapshotting. I don't think I've ever considered snapshotting a problem, even during Mists of Pandaria. In fact, the only reason snapshotting, and warlocks specifically, became a problem was actually down to the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen trinket and Soul Swap. That trinket was absolutely busted and one of the most powerful items Blizzard ever created, and Soul Swap was able to just capitalize on it so much, similar to something like Fire Mage being able to capitalize on the buffs from Alysrazor. I like your perspective though. This is a pretty big discussion that has more parts still to unravel. I plan to talk about them in the future and I'm looking forward to your thoughts.
@@ZerbraxiWoW If it's a healer pries doing PW: Shield then it's not utility, if it's a Shadow Priest it is. If a Shadow Priest is being kept in a dps group for mana regen (TBC) then I'd say it's *not* utility because it's fueling more DPS into the raid, however if the Shadow Priest is stuck in a healer group and refuels the healers mana then it would be utility. Similar examples would be Resto Shaman's Mana Tide, Disc Priests Power Infusion and other mechanics that have multiple uses/outcomes in your raids. If the Mana Tide is used for healers, then it's not utility. If it's used for Arcane Mages then it would be utility. Power Infusion on a healer? not utility. Power infusion on a dps? utility. Look at it this way, the reason Shadow Priests, Ret Paladins, Survival Hunters and all other "subpar" dpsers are taken to TBC raids is because having one of them contributes so much to the raid DPS, if you "add" the raid dps gain of having a Ret Paladin in your raid then you'll (probably) see that they are more valuable for the Raid DPS than a Fury Warrior (which doesn't bring any raid buffs) would and that's why 1 Ret Paladin is better than 1 Fury Warrior if you don't already have a Ret Paladin. ------------------ You're correct that it was a trinket that made snapshotting "go crazy", think there were a couple ...was it Rune of Re-organization for Feral Druids that made them have insane bleed ticks or something? Anyway you're correct in your assessment, snapshotting as a concept not an issue ...endlessly extending the snapshots were. :)
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Calling it right now: You will blow UP at some point. Your videos have such GREAT production quality, you have a great voice & high quality microphone and your tone of voice and "the music of your speech" is really enjoyable.
On top of that the topics seem well researched and properly argued for.
Love it!
You're very kind! I really appreciate it. All the support has been wonderful. Gonna keep trying to make good videos and see what happens.
Best WoW youtuber nice to listen to and very informative..
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. "Best" might be a bit of an overstatement though lol
@@ZerbraxiWoW humble aswell, this channel will grow i greatly imagine.
@@paulmc875 You're too much lol
I am watching a few TH-cam videos a day about TBC content for quite a while now. And if someone says "you are the best" I can just add "by far". Great work, keep it up, love to see more of it!
Think this has summarised perfectly why TBC class design was the peak of wow history! That together with the variety of dungeons, raids and pvp make it THE best version of wow. Awesome video! Retail developers could learn a lot from listening to this.
Thanks. I find myself constantly referring to TBC Class Design when talking about WoW, so I felt the need to make a video about it lol.
So I agree the part of class design was at it's peak, the utility. Rotations still really sucked though, too many classes just do one thing, giving every spec some sort of challenge in their rotations + the utility would have been by far the best class design ever.
This is why I love TBC. The uniqueness
It's a very unique time of the game that's for sure. One that I very much enjoy.
Nicely thought man, loved it great job!
Thank you. Glad you liked it.
You are completely right. I was so disappointed with homogenization in Wotlk.
The outrage from much of the player base was surprising at the time. So many people didn't agree with the new philosophy.
Yessss another one. I love getting these notifications. Playing the TBC beta right now haha
Oh you lucky son of a gun! I'm still a proud founding member of the #NoBetaClub lol
Very well thought out video man, i've been watching your for a couple weeks now and i gotta say you're the best of the "New wow classic channels" that i've seen. Keep it rolling yo.
Thank you for that! The response from everyone has been incredible. You all are the best!
Every time I see one of your videos I feel like like in watching a high production media info video, except better. Great stuff definitely a go to channel for my wow content
Thank you so much for that. Hearing that means a lot. I'll try and keep up the quality and hopefully get even better in future.
Glad to see you back on game design content. Top x lists are ok, but this is the meat and potatoes of why I love your content in the first place!
It's a hard balance to strike. I want to provide some practical use videos to people, but I absolutely love talking about game design too much. It was really nice to revisit this and I have more design discussions planned.
I agree that giving each class AND spec a special raid wide buff is so good and makes tbc special. It makes everyone feel impotent and makes for more diversity in the world and especially in raids, since each spec essentielly provides irreplacable value.
Ya that would be the key. Each class should feel like they provide something unique to make them standout from the crowd.
Another great video. Still blows my mind that this video doesn't have 50k views. You're gonna blow up, keep up with the amazing content!
I appreciate that. I would've thought the angry professor look on the thumbnail would be the ticket, but I might just not be cute enough lol
Thanks for the video - great work as always :D
Thank you. I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
Obviously, the specs that bring buffs to Raid (depending on the composition) contribute much more than purely DPS. However it depends on each guild (and Raid Leader’s patience) because stacking locks/hunters is more easily to do than "math".
Thankfully for that raid leader there exists hundreds of sources that have already done the math for them. Though I get what you mean. I was in a guild in TBC, for a very short period of time, where the raid leader wanted to stack more Holy Priests simply because our current HPriest kept topping logs. Completely ignoring all the reasons why you'd want Shamans and Paladins and Druids lol. To be fair, he also made me reroll Demonology because "Felguard was better than I thought".
I'm gonna site paladin as my example. In classic the only thing you bring as a paladin was the blessings and maybe JoW/JoL if the raid can afford the debuff slots, a big problem was that all those things can be brought by a holy paladin and they can then serve a mana efficient healer and cleanser.
In tbc, your ret pally now not only does more damage, but can also bring 3% crit chance against the foe (Improv. Crusader), 10% Holy Damage + 2% all damage for their group (Sanctity Aura) and can safely keep up all the Judgment debuffs for the other paladins so that the other paladins can focus on other roles (Crusader Strike). So not only is it's damage competitive, but it's also bringing utility that allows one to go "Yes, I specifically need a ret paladin" instead of going "The holy paladin can handle it."
Holy Paladin was already relatively solid, so ofc it didn't need as many changes, so it just got efficiency reworks in a way that wasn't as broken as classic, but still incredibly potent in the hands of a skilled paladin.
Prot Paladin already has some value in classic for their ability to tank dungeons and even certain raids fights and their trash, so all they needed where tweaks that allowed them to competitively do the role, which they got in better itemization, mana sustain fixes, and two tools they sorely lacked (Taunt and Ranged Pull).
The prot or holy can also technically bring the crusader judgment crit talent as well, but either way the Ret Pally can maintain it for them so they aren't either compelled to whack the enemy periodically (holy) or loose some of their threat generation by not doing a damaging judgment (prot)
This is a really great example of a class being able to provide certain value, but certain specs being able to further enhance those values in meaningful ways. It's a great outlook on class utility vs spec utility and that alone could be the subject of a fun discussion.
I appreciate the detailed post. I love reading people's interpretation of the game.
Really really good video man keep the great content coming 👍
Thank you so much. I'm gonna keep trying to make the videos as best as I can.
Zerbraxi, are you planning on streaming at all when TBC launches? Would love to play with you!
I'm 100% planning to play at launch! I'm trying to stream more right now so that I can get more comfortable with it so that people can play and chat during TBC launch. I can't wait to stream then. Going to be a busy week but I'm currently also working on ways to streamline my video process a bit more so I can stream more often.
I'm on mankrick, horde. I would love to help you out.
@@ZerbraxiWoW what realm do you play?
@@ElPedro-kq6ko Mankrik Horde is like 95% of my time. I also do have an alliance mage on Sulfuras PvP.
Love the vids and content. Keep it up!
Thank you! I plan to keep it up for quite a while.
that was a very good and interesting video! thanks
Thank you for taking the time out of your day to watch the video. I really appreciate it that!
@@ZerbraxiWoW No worries :) I recently discovered you and i really enjoy your content. You cover things in a different way from other TH-camrs and it is really lovely, and fun and interesting :) Keep it up!
I think there is difference between a "support class" and a "hybrid class" for the purpose of the hybrid tax. In a minmax setting, the value that the boomkin's buffs brings isn't enough to justify a raid-spot in a minmaxed raid. The value the boomie brings is supposed to be evened out by their ability to throw out a heal in an emergency, or go bear and taunt a lose mob. The hybrid tax is built around the expectation that this is utility you bring to the raid. When you don't need this utility any more, you are left with only the underwhelming chicken, who just outputs low enough DPS that the support they add isn't enough to justify brining them over a better class/spec.
I wouldn't ever claim that Blizzard perfected the balance here. In fact, I even pointed out that elements like Shadowbolt's raw power completely undermines possibly synergy between Fire Mage and Fire Warlocks. The example you gave with Boomkin for example is the victim of a balance problem, not a design problem. I was focusing on the "design" element in this discussion. Tuning of the Boomkin could be done to easily match a closer and more purposeful role to the spec while also keeping them lower DPS than other classes.
Longtime fan. But the reason people dislike the hybrid tax is that soooo many classes have some form of utility, even pure dps classes. Looking to modern expansions, shroud for rogues is arguably the strongest utility ability in the game.. oh and they pump xD
Oh I completely understand that. I was specifically using the Hybrid Tax principle here in relation to TBC. This isn't a problem in TBC, and as a principle on it's own, it's a non-issue as so many other games can prove. The issue with modern wow, at least in terms of Utility, is that the "hybrids" are no longer defined by their utility or support ability. Instead, they are also just another DPS that can provide other roles. If an Elemental Shaman's primary purpose is DPS and a Mage can do more DPS while ALSO bringing Time Warp and Ring of Frost for example, the shaman is irrelevant. If Mage's didn't have Time Warp, then Shamans utility increases and now their lower damage is a balancing act of sacrificing personal performance for that of the group.
I kinda joked about it in the video, but as someone who played a Warlock in TBC, I would beg for the hybrid classes to be in my group every raid lol. I was desperate to have a Balance Druid and Elly Shaman in my party at all times. That's a good "class relationship" to have I think.
7:10 Don't shadow priest also have the misery talent that increases spell damage taken by the target?
Yes, you're right about this. Not sure why I left it out of the video lol, but Misery also increases spell damage taken by 5% on the target.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Great video nonetheless
I really enjoy a lot of the powerful buffs being party vs raid.
I actually think turning short duration buffs to be raid wide was a mistake long term. Having raid and party composition be important layers in and of themselves I think adds a lot of uniqueness to each players raid experience.
Dam it, that is going to be my main SP
SP as in Shadow Priest? If so, it's a good main to be honestly. I'd want you in my group lol
@@ZerbraxiWoW Yeah mate, I'll want to be in my group to haha. You have a great video format and I know these videos take a lot of time to do and wish you the best on youtube. That's a Sub from me.
Nice new set up :D
Even if I vastly prefer class game-play in WotLK I was indeed saddened to see everything getting homogenized regarding utility, but it's mainly because raids had a 10man option now, so there would've been less options... hergh.
Thanks! I wasn't sure if people would like it or not. Might use that setup in future.
I actually think the gameplay of Wrath of the Lich King overall is better than TBC. Class rotations filled in across the board and the age of 1 or 2 button specs was officially dead. Even all the way up to, and including MoP, I really enjoyed "playing" the class. However, Blizzard homogenizing classes and removing so much uniqueness was a real shame and I don't think there needed to be that trade. 1 of the major things I would've liked to see changed about Wrath would be to abandon the idea of "bring the player NOT the class" and instead continue the philosophy of "bring the player AND the class." Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy 14 have mostly nailed that design so it can clearly be done.
@@ZerbraxiWoW It was probably another thing they didn't want to deal with going forward, it was also the time when profession specs were drop alltogether if I remember correctly. Now that I think of it, the class diversity sort of dies the further you go in TBC, since most bonuses provided by hybrid classes get overshadowed by raw stats over time.
I joined my first serious guilde during T6 and I remember that except for mana batteries, having another warlock or fire mage was still better than getting a moonkin or an elemental. Except maybe for totem twist enhancement, melees were all over that one since wind-fury is extra damage no matter your gear xD
Regarding GW2 and FF14 it has its toll too however. in FF14 even the HL content is managed to be done with pretty much any comp, which makes the end game sort of easier overall, but still very fun and diverse obviously. In GW2 they pushed it so far that there was no viable options for tanks and healers except for Chronomancer and Druid respectively, *for literal years* which was very frustrating when other classes had potential but were never reworked to fit on the task.
Players taking actions against their self-interest assumes that their intended goal to get out of the game is fun. But, fun is not the reason why they play WoW.
Competitiveness, the ability to feel exceptional at something, or wanting to be a part of a group are closer to the underlying reasons why people are willing to stick around with time-consuming, tedious, un-fun systems.
I really disagree that "fun" is the defining factor. Enjoyment, pleasure, a feeling of belonging, people will actively behave against their own self interests in order to satiate those desires, and video games can be a catalyst for obtaining those feelings. For example, the AP grind in Legion and BFA was practically universally hated, especially by the hardcore players. The most hardcore finds "fun" out of competition and they actively went out of their way to do an activity they disliked to be able to stay competitive in an area of the game they enjoyed.
I really think the idea of "fun" has become so twisted and especially when applied to a players enjoyment of a game, it tends to be used in a way that severely narrows what video games are actually capable of.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll be prioritizing fun come TBC. Heroics and Kara for me. It can't come soon enough.
@@FreeValidation Agreed! Here's to Outland.
'Nilla was beautiful and tBC was elegant
Good choice of words. I like it.
100% correct. Also still criminally undersubbed
I'm gonna have to start buying billboards or something to get my name out there!
If they made BM's Ferocious Inspiration be 2%/4%/6% but not stack (or something like that) so BM stacking wouldn't be so advantageous and somehow found a way to not need to stack Locks I think TBC would have been perfect. That being said, given how unbalanced Vanilla was v. what we got in TBC, teh fact they got that close to perfection is insane. Oh, I guess they could have found a way not to stack 3 Resto Shaman too, but given how powerful Lust/Heroism is I am not sure how they could have done that.
With your comparison to Shadowlands, as far as I can figure the only unique raid wide utility is Balance Druid AOE on the Council of Blood fight in CN...and that might be a stretch. So _some_ utility on one fight out of 10 might as well not even exist.
From a DPS perspective the Class utility that exists is basically who has the best immunities, the rest is mostly just straight DPS. Shaman tend to be the exception in Shadowlands but it's still very minor compared to TBC.
Those Ferocious Inspiration ideas could be interesting. Part of their stacking problem though is mostly just down to how powerful Steady Shot is, mostly the same with Lock. If SB and SS were nerfed slightly they'd still be best probably, but utility would look even better for other classes by comparison.
@@ZerbraxiWoW Agreed on Steady Shot and BM Hunters, but what is unique about Ferocious Inspiration is that because it stacks, the utility 2 BM hunters bring to the group is better than 1 where most specs/classes can't say that. Like two Enhancement Shaman in a group doesn't double their buffs for the group, two Imp EA Rogues don't double their Armor Pen of the Raid, etc. So it's not just that they bring huge DPS, they also buff their group by a stacking 3% which basically means you will want 3 or even 4 in your group. They probably need a DPS nerf too to prevent stacking being the optimal config.
Locks I think just come down to they do too much damage, so scaling that back a bit is probably all they'd need to do. I still think you are stuck with 5 Shaman though know matter what you do, so it's probably impossible to build it such that you'd have all 24 specs in a raid + 1 floater...although TBC comes pretty darn close. ;)
Before classic launched everyone said warriors won't go deeps wounds because it takes up a debuff slot. Classic launches and it's the exact fuckign opposite. Every warrior is going deep wounds. Just one of the reason why I don't give any prelaunch theorycrafting any consideration at all. But it's fun to listen too and in the end i'm gonna play the game the way I enjoy it and I really don't care about the meta.
I like to talk about the design and about how things were back in 2007-2008 ish. However, I try to avoid "real theorycrafting" at the moment for 2 reasons. First, Classic has proven that all of "what we know" could shatter upon launch. Second, I'm in a similar boat about not caring about the meta. I've already beaten all of the content back then, so I'm just going to goof around and do whatever I feel like come TBC.
I might end up discussing some meta builds and min-maxing for those who do care about it, but there's so much that even the Classic TBC Beta has shown to have changed relative to what we thought. I don't mind being wrong about something, but I really don't want to release information that is incorrect that could've just held off for a couple weeks to get the real info from the beta.
I just feel like melee dps classes got hit by the nerf hammer a bit too hard in TBC. Blizzard knew ranged classes like hunter and warlock under-performed in vanilla so they buffed them a lot in TBC. Meanwhile, after dominating in vanilla melee DPS like warriors and rogues are laughably bad as dps in TBC, especially in the beginning of the game, even though they bring even less utility than warlocks/hunters. Warriors and rogues can bring just a small physical dmg boost to the raid, whereas warlocks have curses/summons/healthstones while hunters can misdirect (which is crucial for many fights) and have traps + scorpid sting. Blizzard tried to offset the imbalance in vanilla by creating a new imbalance in TBC, which is probably the only thing I don't like about TBC. But I guess no game is perfect and a perfectly balanced MMO is almost certainly oxymoron.
Still, I think the most fun classes to play should be the ones that are overpowered. Classic WoW has so successful because pumping as a warrior is actually fun and engaging. Pumping as a warlock or hunter is insanely boring. So from that perspective I don't know if Classic TBC will be as successful as vanilla even though there is definitely more class and spec variety in it.
This is a very interesting point. I actually share the same criticism with the rotation gameplay around Warlocks and Hunters. I find Survival to be a bit more enjoyable since that rotation doesn't follow the 1 button macro rotation, but BM is an utter bore if Steady Shot spam continues. Blizzard does seem to have broken the 1 shot macro in Beta, so that could definitely make BM a bit more engaging to play. Warlock is funny too because I actually think Affliction is a BLAST to play and I loved playing Aff during t4/t5. Fire Warlock is also actually pretty fun. SB spam is a complete bore though and the main reason I never want to play Lock in TBC ever again lol.
Balance is definitely such a crazy subject. I think Classic TBC will still be incredibly successful the gameplay loop is a bit more involved and I think we'll see that drive players. However, those who are rerolling Lock and BM hunter to be Flavor of the Month top DPS might be surprised. To be fair though, Mage rotation in Vanilla is boring as sin and people seemed to love it, myself included, so who knows. That might be because Mage has a load of utility and weird abilities though.
@@ZerbraxiWoW You can see on the so-called fresh crusade realm (dragonfang EU) most people have actually rolled warrior or hybrid classes, while warlocks are one of the least played classes even though they are OP in both PvP and PvE. Maybe it is the class fantasy that is not so appealing for warlocks or just people don't want to feel so overpowered in a game because it removes the challenge. At any rate I still think hitting enemies from melee range is more fun and interactive than standing stationary behind and casting spells, unfortunately TBC screws melee classes royally.
Love your vids man, so excited for tbc!
Thank you so much! I'm excited too.
I dont know what class to play in classic 😐
Find a list that lets you enter all the classes you're considering in a list, and then will randomly pick one for you. Once you're given the choice of a class, you very quickly respond to whether or not you ACTUALLY want to play that class.
What bothers me most is how people are so against trying things and only listening to the meta. They claim they want a game about discovery, but instead, it's just a game where they read the reference manual. I'd rather it be both.
There's something truly wonderful about discovering things for yourself. While the meta will always exist, and while performing to your fullest is definitely a joy, there's also a time to shut that part of your brain off and just go explore.
Rogue utility: taking those fast offhands that would get DE'd otherwise
LOL! Someone has to do it!
Imp EA is pretty great to be honest, even with a Prot Warrior but doubly so with so many groups in 2021 will be using Feral and Prot Pallies.
Or... don't gear your Rogues and lose out on a lot of DPS later in the expansion.
@@andrewshandle The best unique utility a rogue can bring and what they can lean into to justify a raid spot is
Distract and PVP gloves deadly throw interrupt.
Distract is massive for Mt. Hyjal as you can give everyone more time to drink before boss pulls.
And being the only class with 2x physical interrupts is key for Illidari Council progression where you can singlehandedly lockdown the priest boss.
@@andrewshandle Ya I actually think that since people know how strong Feral and Prot Pally is going to be come TBC that we might see Imp EA make a comback.
I'm partial to Terra having green hair.
She's a cute blonde though, but Celes wears it better.
Green hair Terra is real Terra. Despite Amano drawing her blonde, I can't help but always associate Terra with her sprite.
The only class that really gets shafted in wotlk raids is shaman...demo buff is better than totem wrath, frost or blood tank cover enhance buffs.
Gameplay wise other classes started to lose a lot of uniqueness. Every DPS now had reliable, continual AOE which encouraged guilds to just pick the best AOE class. Frost Mages suddenly had Replenishment, but thankful for Shadow Priests Fire and Arcane was just so good that Frost never really existed in PvE. Overall a lot of the classes just started to share specialties. It wasn't the most egregious during Wrath, but it set the stage to strip more and more uniqueness and utility as time went on.
I am going ele shaman, because it's the only class that i haven't play ever xD.
I might be joining you actually. I always wanted to main a shaman sometime, so why not now
@@ZerbraxiWoW Aye it seems really interesting, not sure if I get to keep Role leader grank when I swap to a class that I've never played. But than again as couldn't be that different - at least it's still a caster xD
Had to get WB rdy, because the guild officers expected/incentivized it. If the guild officers don't enforce it then its not done. #blameguildleaders
Not true. My guild doesnt require WBs for nax but everyone still gets them.
Ya this is a tough one that I think goes beyond guild leaders and officers. If other players in your guild start getting world buffs, even if they're not mandatory, then more and more people start to feel compelled to get them. ESPECIALLY if you ever wipe where people having World Buffs would've prevented it. It's a very complicated issue that mostly seems to be a social one, though some gameplay limitations could alleviate some of the effects to the meta.
Mankrick! Woot
Represent!!
This really emphasizes how unique elements in classes and/or specs helps the game as a whole.
Lately, WoW has dropped this concept and has just homogenized all these unique aspects and I believe that is one of the reasons players drop Shadowlands. Of course there is the content drought as well but that is one separate can of worms.
Ya, unfortunately homogenization is also largely the players fault. Balancing the game around nothing by DPS raid performance has twisted not only the players perspective of "performance", but also pigeonholed Blizzard into ensuring that everyone can be competitive in DPS so that all players can "equally" perform. The nuance of support and utility are largely removed, and I think it's hurt class design a lot. Final Fantasy 14's class design is so clearly inspired by older World of Warcraft and I think they still have some of the best Class Design any MMO has ever seen.
Despite all the hostility towards teh World Buff meta.. yeah I quit classic BWL it's take too much time PvP'ing while trying to get world buffs. I should have rolled on the pve server.
U could have just transferred your main to a pve server
I ended up rolling a horde character on Mankrik PVE and kept my Alliance character on the PvP server. PvE servers are actually pretty nice sometimes.
Could be really silly and do what I did and completely level a whole new character on a PvE server and leave my original character on PvP. Don't recommend lol
addons at 3:07?
ElvUI, ThreatClassic2, Details, and Decursive. I believe that's everything that's visible at that moment.
Yo I think tbc is the end of wow following traditional rpg class design
I believe I heard Kevin Jordan, class designer for Vanilla WoW, make the exact same claim. I'm happy that Blizzard iterated upon their class design over time, but some of the fundamentals are too important to lose, and unfortunately many classes have lost them.
I didn't worlfbuff u til phase 5. Killed kt a few times then quit raiding til tbc. Not interested in buffing outside of pvp shenanigans
World Buff meta is so fascinating to me. People hate it with a passion, it's basically never necessary, yet everyone feels compelled to do it.
@@ZerbraxiWoW i use it to lvl my alts in areas I know I might die. Like Barrens harpies or stone talon goblins or the stv trolls. And I sometimes full buff my t3 rogue to get like 10k hp in pvp and just mess around for a bit til I get dispelled or ganged by 5 people
Your sub count is exploding !
It's so surreal!
I'll disagree with your definition of "utility".
Utility in my opinion means additional effects or tools that serves your party/raid outside of your role assignment.
Examples:
- Retribution Paladins bringing 3% crit isn't utility, Retribution Paladins are DPS'ers and their role is to contribute to the raid dps. However Retribution Paladins (all Paladins) also have Lay on Hands, Blessings and at later expansions instant Flash of Light and passive healing through Divine Storm (WotLK) which add to raid survivability. The role of the Retribution Paladin isn't and never will be to help the survivability of the raid, so anything that Retribution Paladins can do to increase survivability is utility.
- Balance Druids bringing 3% physical hit isn't utility, again it's the role of the Balance Druid to contribute to the raid dps. However Balance Druids having Innervate, Tranquility, Combat ress, decent offhealing and so on *IS* utility because they do things that their role isn't specifically tasked to do.
On the topic of "Hybrid tax" or "Utility tax", I think it's a fair thing to have. You're trading the raw DPS of a "pure dps" class/spec for the increased survivability and sustainability of your raid, sometimes that tradeoff is absolutely needed if a boss is really hard to heal ...and sometimes you need the extra damage because the boss is on an extremely tight enrage timer. If a class/spec could bring S tier DPS and S tier utility then they'd be, by definition, overpowered. However if a class/spec was S tier DPS and C tier utility that would be okay, likewise if a class/spec was B tier DPS and B tier utility then it would also be fine- and finally if a class/spec was C tier healing but S tier utility (Holy Paladins in TBC) then that's also fine.
As a Ret Paladin for over 12 years I've had many ups and downs, from being F tier dps and C tier Utility to being A tier DPS and S tier utility. The most fun I've ever had as a Ret Paladin, was when I did fair dps (B tier) and had amazing utility (S tier). As I've said in podcasts and argued in community threads it's not the DPS that you do that is the most important, it's the dps you do while *CORRECTLY* using all your utility to help the raid. As a "hybrid" or "utility spec" your job isn't to do the most damage in the raid, if that's your goal then you should play a Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Rogue or any other "pure dps class". Your job as a "hybrid" or "utility spec" is to use your tools properly when needed ...and then do the most damage you can, if you fail to use your tools that could've saved someone from dying (regardless if it was their fault or not) but you top DPS then you've missed the point of your role. It's the same with Druids (and later Warlocks and DKs) who refuse to spend a global CD to combat ress someone because it's a personal DPS loss, I can guarantee you that the 1-2 seconds you spend on combat ressing someone far *(FAR)* outweighs the loss of personal DPS loss you take.
For WoW I think Mists of Pandaria had the best class design as a whole, all talents and specializations had interesting quirks and uses. Yes there were balance issues, like DoT's snapshotting, but for the most part there was a spot and use for nearly all tools at one (or multiple) raid encounter(s). Yes the artstyle and story of MoP wasn't great (which is opinion based anyways), but I genuinely hold MoP as the best WoW expansion from both a Raiding and PvP point of view.
This is a totally fair disagreement to have. Utility is such a vague word at the end of the day. I mean the English definition of the word is literally, "the state of being useful". That's INCREDIBLY subjective. However I see your point. I'm clearly looking at utility in a wider, more vague perspective. If I get this right, you're making the argument that anything outside the "established role" of that player is utility. So a Priest's Power Word Barrier might not be considered utility, but Power Infusion would be. Am I getting you correct?
I find it interesting you brought up snapshotting. I don't think I've ever considered snapshotting a problem, even during Mists of Pandaria. In fact, the only reason snapshotting, and warlocks specifically, became a problem was actually down to the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen trinket and Soul Swap. That trinket was absolutely busted and one of the most powerful items Blizzard ever created, and Soul Swap was able to just capitalize on it so much, similar to something like Fire Mage being able to capitalize on the buffs from Alysrazor.
I like your perspective though. This is a pretty big discussion that has more parts still to unravel. I plan to talk about them in the future and I'm looking forward to your thoughts.
@@ZerbraxiWoW
If it's a healer pries doing PW: Shield then it's not utility, if it's a Shadow Priest it is.
If a Shadow Priest is being kept in a dps group for mana regen (TBC) then I'd say it's *not* utility because it's fueling more DPS into the raid, however if the Shadow Priest is stuck in a healer group and refuels the healers mana then it would be utility.
Similar examples would be Resto Shaman's Mana Tide, Disc Priests Power Infusion and other mechanics that have multiple uses/outcomes in your raids. If the Mana Tide is used for healers, then it's not utility. If it's used for Arcane Mages then it would be utility. Power Infusion on a healer? not utility. Power infusion on a dps? utility.
Look at it this way, the reason Shadow Priests, Ret Paladins, Survival Hunters and all other "subpar" dpsers are taken to TBC raids is because having one of them contributes so much to the raid DPS, if you "add" the raid dps gain of having a Ret Paladin in your raid then you'll (probably) see that they are more valuable for the Raid DPS than a Fury Warrior (which doesn't bring any raid buffs) would and that's why 1 Ret Paladin is better than 1 Fury Warrior if you don't already have a Ret Paladin.
------------------
You're correct that it was a trinket that made snapshotting "go crazy", think there were a couple ...was it Rune of Re-organization for Feral Druids that made them have insane bleed ticks or something? Anyway you're correct in your assessment, snapshotting as a concept not an issue ...endlessly extending the snapshots were. :)
Fury warrior stacking is gonna be meta
100% the move. No one will see it coming.