Around 5:40, Peter, you mention the [former RLDS] church established by Emma and "Joseph Smith Junior, the 3rd". Not a criticism, here: it just brought a smile to my face.
Peter Bleakly for Prophet 2021! Current LDS theology, practices, and campaigns have, for me, been out of touch with real needs of its members. For me, my membership and in the LDS church just turned stale and I felt like the major concern of the leaders (including myself) was conformity and Pharisee worship.
You are not alone! I'll definitely take that job with its annual salary of $140,000 plus expenses and a $300 Billion budget to play with! On a serious not though, I agree. If we practiced the Law of Common Consent, we would all be involved in the propheteering of the Church. We would all have an influence on which revelations and policies became official and canonised. that's how it was set up to be in the Restoration.
This was amazing. You spoke about the magna Carta and I got giddy as a school boy dropping my daughter off to college at Royal Holloway in Egham England. Down the hill from the college is a big open beautiful green field where they have a marker denoting the place where the magna Carta was signed. Super cool.
I’m in good spirits thankyou! My Court of Love was last Wednesday and I still haven’t received a verdict LOL I think I broke the Church… it was amazing though. 2 1/2 hours of great dialogue.
I find it interesting that God is always a "He" and that we will become "God's and Goddesses" I think - if there is such a think as God or a higher power/s - that they will transcend gender, that they don't really veiw gender in the way that we veiw it, that it doesn't really exist. Because gender is something that humans have created to make sense of the average difference between many people with penises and vaginas. But it doesn't really make sense when so so so many people don't fit into those steyotypes. So yeah, I think it's really quite funny when religion tries to give God a gender 😂
This is really interesting to consider, specially as the Church is going to have to reconfigure itself to cope with LGBTQ inclusion pretty fast if it is to survive. I think it is fair to say that to become divine we need to become experts in ALL the positive strengths and attributes regardless of which one we started off with due to genetics or nurture and social conditioning. The current model has men and women staying distinctly different to each other all the way along the progression path to becoming Gods (which is ludicrous and definitely projecting our current realities onto something that cannot remain that limited or preset along gender lines if becoming Gods is real) and bringing those attributes together in a whole in the form of a heterosexual cisgendered marriage, but as you suggest perhaps we should be instead focusing on that being a metaphor for the personal journey of development each of us goes on as we learn and build our skill set.
This is directly to you, Peter (i.e., not to those, here, who have been screwed up since birth): I "do" have more to say, as I indicated, previously. There are two things that I see in you, Peter: and in John Dehlin and in your protégé Douglas Stillgoe-- 1) the Utah martyr complex 2) the Utah 'saviour complex' I see those two complexes in all three of you! How odd! I had thought that those two complexes would have been difficult to 'export' to Merry Olde England. (I guess I was wrong.) What's even MORE odd, though, Peter, is that I never acquired either one of those maladies, after joining the Church before you were born (i.e., I was married over 50 years ago). Caveat: I will admit, though, that-- as a young adult in The Beatles Generation-- I did feel an indistinct 'persecution complex' every time I went out with the missionary elders to do some proselyting. (And, I never knew why I felt that way.) Aside from THAT, my generation did NOT have people, in it, who were "strange and odd" (viz., queer)! Queers-- for that was their moniker-- always seemed to scurry away like furtive animals; for, they were shamed into the shadows because of their perversion(s). John Dehlin was excommunicated [ostensibly] for publicly "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed": something for which I perceive you, yourself, will be excommunicated, as well (and Douglas, too, in his own time.) The truth is-- and we both know it-- you will involuntarily have "your membership withdrawn", (excommunicated) for a different reason which (stated or unstated by your judges) will represent the apostasy of using your public influence as a social activist to promote the gay and lesbian lifestyle. Your 'martyr complex' will prevent you from feeling any shame: just as it did in John Dehlin's case. (In fact, it may even energize you, paradoxically.) Your "saviour complex" (we spell it "savior", over here) will add fuel to your fire. >>> John Dehlin actually thinks that he, too, can somehow "save" the Church. (And, I always thought he was just an odd 'Utah gnome'.) (But, 'UK Utah gnomes'? That is just more 'strange and odd'.) I see the Aramaic on the wall, for you, Peter: "Mene, mene, tekel, ufarsin" God does not sympathize with sin.
Ok then. You're entitled to your view. Do you have any experience being discriminated against? Have you ever been the one without power, or have you always been more the bossy one?
Thanks for those thoughts Ahashdah. I'm a bit confused but I think I've worked out what you are saying. I totally agree with you that Mormonism teaches us all to have a messiah complex - to take responsibility for saving the world and fixing things and not being passive and doing or saying nothing when we could make a difference. Post-Mormon communities often discuss this, and how ironic it is when Latter-day Saints criticise nuanced or ex-Mormons for doing all the things they do and they taught us to do in response to a problem or ideological conflict instead of just going away and not bothering with the Church any more or trying to fix it. It shouldn't be surprising that people like Douglas and I raised in Mormon culture have internalised Mormon culture whatever country we are in. It's the same culture and teachings. I'm very grateful for that - I believe the LDS idea that a few people doing what seem like small things at the right time can make a huge difference to the larger community or the Church, like a rudder steering a ship to use the metaphor in the scripture where Joseph Smith taught this. The reality is that people like John Dehlin and the thousands of active and ex-members he speaks to and for HAVE had a huge impact on the Church. They have brought about a significant shift towards more honesty in how it teaches its history and the Gospel Topics Essays. They have shamed the Church into softening its homophobic rhetoric and mostly accepting people are born LGBTQ rather than choosing it as a 'lifestyle' and that their experience is very difficult, and abandoned conversion therapies and heterosexual marriage as 'cures' for being LGBTQ, a huge turnaround from what used to be the norm and official policy of the Church. I have indeed predictably been excommunicated, but I can assure you it was for opposing the leaders and publicly discussing their lying and financial corruption and suchlike, not advocating for LGBTQ inclusion specifically. I agree God does not sympathise with sin. My understanding from learning about Jesus is that He is far more upset about people claiming to be his Apostles telling lies that someone like me calling them liars for doing so. Far more upset about leaders stealing from the poor than someone like me calling them thieves for doing that. Far more upset about Mormons ostracising and persecuting the marginalised 'lost sheep' such as LGBTQ people in violation of His repeated teachings than someone like me calling the LDS leaders 'Pharisees' for doing that. Whose sins do you think are the greatest? The LGBTQ people or the hypocrites among Church leaders? Jesus is pretty clear about this principle in the New Testament gospels.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 Well said! Doing our best to look through the eyes of Jesus tends to clear up the difference between what religious authorities tend to value, and what Jesus continually risked his life to point out sharply. (And I deleted my more snarky message to Ahashdah. I'll try to keep a better tone.)
Not to be impatient, we miss you. Bring on 7B
I'm all on board
YAY!
Around 5:40, Peter, you mention the [former RLDS] church established by Emma and "Joseph Smith Junior, the 3rd".
Not a criticism, here: it just brought a smile to my face.
Peter Bleakly for Prophet 2021! Current LDS theology, practices, and campaigns have, for me, been out of touch with real needs of its members. For me, my membership and in the LDS church just turned stale and I felt like the major concern of the leaders (including myself) was conformity and Pharisee worship.
You are not alone! I'll definitely take that job with its annual salary of $140,000 plus expenses and a $300 Billion budget to play with! On a serious not though, I agree. If we practiced the Law of Common Consent, we would all be involved in the propheteering of the Church. We would all have an influence on which revelations and policies became official and canonised. that's how it was set up to be in the Restoration.
Refreshing
Thankyou!
This was amazing. You spoke about the magna Carta and I got giddy as a school boy dropping my daughter off to college at Royal Holloway in Egham England.
Down the hill from the college is a big open beautiful green field where they have a marker denoting the place where the magna Carta was signed.
Super cool.
Finally episode 7!!!! Been looking forward to this one. How are things going Peter? Any updates on your court of love?
I’m in good spirits thankyou! My Court of Love was last Wednesday and I still haven’t received a verdict LOL I think I broke the Church… it was amazing though. 2 1/2 hours of great dialogue.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 thanks for the update. Keep us posted on any updates.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 They should at least listen to episode 7 before deciding.
@@leem3299 That's entirely my fault leaving it too late to publish it :)
if Nelson ever admits that evolution is right though, he'll just gaslight us to the ninths with "but of course we've always supported evolution!"
"What the actual Moriancumer...?" =D
"It would be embarrassing" is the only reason I can come up with at this point as to why they haven't embraced same sex marriage and trans people.
I find it interesting that God is always a "He" and that we will become "God's and Goddesses" I think - if there is such a think as God or a higher power/s - that they will transcend gender, that they don't really veiw gender in the way that we veiw it, that it doesn't really exist. Because gender is something that humans have created to make sense of the average difference between many people with penises and vaginas. But it doesn't really make sense when so so so many people don't fit into those steyotypes.
So yeah, I think it's really quite funny when religion tries to give God a gender 😂
This is really interesting to consider, specially as the Church is going to have to reconfigure itself to cope with LGBTQ inclusion pretty fast if it is to survive. I think it is fair to say that to become divine we need to become experts in ALL the positive strengths and attributes regardless of which one we started off with due to genetics or nurture and social conditioning. The current model has men and women staying distinctly different to each other all the way along the progression path to becoming Gods (which is ludicrous and definitely projecting our current realities onto something that cannot remain that limited or preset along gender lines if becoming Gods is real) and bringing those attributes together in a whole in the form of a heterosexual cisgendered marriage, but as you suggest perhaps we should be instead focusing on that being a metaphor for the personal journey of development each of us goes on as we learn and build our skill set.
This is directly to you, Peter
(i.e., not to those, here, who have been screwed up since birth):
I "do" have more to say, as I indicated, previously.
There are two things that I see in you, Peter: and in John Dehlin and in your protégé Douglas Stillgoe--
1) the Utah martyr complex
2) the Utah 'saviour complex'
I see those two complexes in all three of you!
How odd! I had thought that those two complexes would have been difficult to 'export' to Merry Olde England.
(I guess I was wrong.)
What's even MORE odd, though, Peter, is that I never acquired either one of those maladies, after joining the Church before you were born (i.e., I was married over 50 years ago).
Caveat: I will admit, though, that-- as a young adult in The Beatles Generation-- I did feel an indistinct 'persecution complex' every time I went out with the missionary elders to do some proselyting. (And, I never knew why I felt that way.)
Aside from THAT, my generation did NOT have people, in it, who were "strange and odd" (viz., queer)!
Queers-- for that was their moniker-- always seemed to scurry away like furtive animals; for, they were shamed into the shadows because of their perversion(s).
John Dehlin was excommunicated [ostensibly] for publicly "evil speaking of the Lord's anointed": something for which I perceive you, yourself, will be excommunicated, as well (and Douglas, too, in his own time.)
The truth is-- and we both know it-- you will involuntarily have "your membership withdrawn", (excommunicated) for a different reason which (stated or unstated by your judges) will represent the apostasy of using your public influence as a social activist to promote the gay and lesbian lifestyle.
Your 'martyr complex' will prevent you from feeling any shame: just as it did in John Dehlin's case.
(In fact, it may even energize you, paradoxically.)
Your "saviour complex" (we spell it "savior", over here) will add fuel to your fire.
>>> John Dehlin actually thinks that he, too, can somehow "save" the Church.
(And, I always thought he was just an odd 'Utah gnome'.)
(But, 'UK Utah gnomes'? That is just more 'strange and odd'.)
I see the Aramaic on the wall, for you, Peter:
"Mene, mene, tekel, ufarsin"
God does not sympathize with sin.
Ok then. You're entitled to your view. Do you have any experience being discriminated against? Have you ever been the one without power, or have you always been more the bossy one?
Thanks for those thoughts Ahashdah. I'm a bit confused but I think I've worked out what you are saying. I totally agree with you that Mormonism teaches us all to have a messiah complex - to take responsibility for saving the world and fixing things and not being passive and doing or saying nothing when we could make a difference. Post-Mormon communities often discuss this, and how ironic it is when Latter-day Saints criticise nuanced or ex-Mormons for doing all the things they do and they taught us to do in response to a problem or ideological conflict instead of just going away and not bothering with the Church any more or trying to fix it. It shouldn't be surprising that people like Douglas and I raised in Mormon culture have internalised Mormon culture whatever country we are in. It's the same culture and teachings.
I'm very grateful for that - I believe the LDS idea that a few people doing what seem like small things at the right time can make a huge difference to the larger community or the Church, like a rudder steering a ship to use the metaphor in the scripture where Joseph Smith taught this.
The reality is that people like John Dehlin and the thousands of active and ex-members he speaks to and for HAVE had a huge impact on the Church. They have brought about a significant shift towards more honesty in how it teaches its history and the Gospel Topics Essays. They have shamed the Church into softening its homophobic rhetoric and mostly accepting people are born LGBTQ rather than choosing it as a 'lifestyle' and that their experience is very difficult, and abandoned conversion therapies and heterosexual marriage as 'cures' for being LGBTQ, a huge turnaround from what used to be the norm and official policy of the Church.
I have indeed predictably been excommunicated, but I can assure you it was for opposing the leaders and publicly discussing their lying and financial corruption and suchlike, not advocating for LGBTQ inclusion specifically.
I agree God does not sympathise with sin. My understanding from learning about Jesus is that He is far more upset about people claiming to be his Apostles telling lies that someone like me calling them liars for doing so. Far more upset about leaders stealing from the poor than someone like me calling them thieves for doing that. Far more upset about Mormons ostracising and persecuting the marginalised 'lost sheep' such as LGBTQ people in violation of His repeated teachings than someone like me calling the LDS leaders 'Pharisees' for doing that.
Whose sins do you think are the greatest? The LGBTQ people or the hypocrites among Church leaders? Jesus is pretty clear about this principle in the New Testament gospels.
@@mormoncivilwar6189 Well said! Doing our best to look through the eyes of Jesus tends to clear up the difference between what religious authorities tend to value, and what Jesus continually risked his life to point out sharply.
(And I deleted my more snarky message to Ahashdah. I'll try to keep a better tone.)
I'll have more to say later...