She called a system that practically exists already "magical thinking," but thinks her tribal commune system is all very reasonable and not at all a pipe dream.
Econoboi: “You agreed to this debate format” Demonmama: “yes” Econoboi: “but, now in the middle of the debate, you don’t want that format.” Demonmama: “yes” Econoboi: “Well, can you see how that is frustrating?” Demonmama: “Thats a you problem.” … wow
I thought that response was a great example of why people like DM deciding how to handle economics and other things would probably be terrifying. Just imagine it… “I was supposed to get food instead of these bread crumbs” “That’s a you problem”
Back then (the Medieval period - in Europe) if you thought you had a gay son you shipped him off to become a priest or a monk (no sex allowed). I don't think "lesbian" was a concept they had acknowledged yet.
You will always lose a debate against someone who doesn't even have a system to defend IMO because they can be on the offensive the whole time. They have no solutions, but they don't even need them.
I love how improving the Nordic Model is Magical Thinking but communes where people don't need to work and have endless time to build creative works isn't.
Also the "let's get rid of countries and just have a lot of autonomous villages." What's the worst that could happen? She doesn't think about the fact that while she doesn't have to do things she doesn't like, Jimmy from Alabama doesn't either. The amount of regression of any kind of social issues would be so insane.
@@Ballet40k She also seems to never have thought of why we do live in these large nations. One reason is protection from threats. What happens if the autonomus village next door decides to take over your autonomus village? Who manages disputes here?
@@pellelindtner3488 I wonder.. What used to happen in ye olden days when villages had disputes? Was it car? Jar? OH! War. And no matter how civilized a people gets, if the only one who provides safety and stability is a fucking warlord, then they are the one people flock to. Just a reality. That's one of the reasons why people join gangs even in the western world. I guess I'm getting a bit off topic, but all this is worth thinking about.
Demon Mama: speaks for 2 and a half minutes straight Econoboi: well, I don't completely disagree, I actually think - Demon Mama: well have you considered my next 2 and a half minute speech that's barely on topic, followed up with 3 examples that allow me to dominate the discussion? Fucking hell DM doesn't give him a chance to say fucking anything without cutting him off and going on a diatribe
Wrong. The rule is, 'never debate demon M'. This is one of the dumbest most dishonest ppl on the internet. She does not deserve any attention whatsoever.
Im actually suprised, that a person like her, with zero knowledge of econ has the confidence to talk about this stuff on stream and even debate someone. She literally makes an argument about sozial prescriptions in a debate about economics... pls dont let someone like her just talk the whole time even interupting you. If you want to get into this whole debation thing you have to be more agressiv and take close to half of the time of the talk. ty for the great content tho
Assumedly if he pushed harder, DemonMama would just hang up the call and not talk to him again. Outside of entertainment for his own audience, I don't know how productive that would be. Realistically, though, having any kind of debate with DemonMama on their own channel is effectively pointless. They control the narrative with a vice grip and actively steer clear of any points that might persuade their audience in a way that doesn't align with their world view. You aren't exactly going to reach an audience so entrenched in that level of authoritarianism. Destiny's view of just not engaging with them at all was probably the right decision, imo.
You can't "debate" with DemonMama if you don't let her interrupt, she'll just start screaming you out of it then. She is incredibly good at talking over people and really does not like the same tactics being turned on her.
At 1:00:00 she talks for almost 8 straight minutes just to answer "what kind of socialism do you advocate for". Jfc she loves to hear herself talk. Unbelievable patience from econoboi.
"This is magical thinking!!!" "I support a system that has never worked or maybe even never been tried and in that system you wont have to do anything and there will still be resources for everybody."
"I think social issues like gay marriage can't really be tied to economics" "I think gay marriage bans can be directly tied to capitalism" *econoboi drinks an entire bottle of jack* "HOW"
It's insane how you can be talking to someone who's completely uneducated on the issues, but it still comes out looking kind of balanced. I'm not telling you to be more aggressive at all, but some different phrasing I think would go a long way. Instead of responding to so much with "that's fair", which makes it seems reasonable you could say something like "so, that's incorrect" and proceed to explain why. You don't need to change your demeanor at all, I actually think it's perfect that you're calm and courteous, but you seem to cede so much ground. Still, loving the debates bro
I think econoboi is confusing how to have an effective 1 on 1 interpersonal conversation with how to have an effective conversation in front of an audience. They are very different.
"Rules for thee, but not for me!" Something beautiful about talking about the environment while smoking. Truth is, she partakes on the vices of the society as much as the next person, she's just found a way to justify not feeling guilty about it to herself.
Inbelievable that people like her exist. This was a wasted debate, because she gets to trot out her flawless, never tried before system, while you have to defend a very real, very flawed system. No shit her system is better, every utopia usually is. I would stick to debating narrower issues. Things like increasing capital gains, etc. Not something that allows the lunatics to spread their nonsense.
@@WalterBurn that's why a lot of leftist stuff is so popular. it's a great way to let out the frustrations with a material world where you don't get what you want, it provides a feeling of moral superiority bc you step out of material concerns and it creates a radical movement where you can both feel special AND apart of a group (similar to why folks join cults/mlms)
@@OlPalJoe Plus I'm always baffled by how these people talk about revolution but none of them could tell you how to man a rifle or give the basics in guerrilla strategy. Most of these people fall into a depression if you pick apart their beliefs to hard or get their pronouns wrong. And none of them have ever participated or get remotely involved in local politics. It truly baffles me.
"Would you like to tell me a system you'd prefer that would alleviate these issues?" "I'll tell you about a system that can't and it's called social democracy" I honestly don't think she's ever thought about it, she just knows shitting on your opinion makes her look better while having to offer nothing. At this point her being kinda sorta a socialist just looks like a ploy to be a socialist when you argue against it but not a socialist if you attack her beliefs.
People like DM are incredibly frustrating to converse with. You can practically hear the bolts rattling in their heads when you confront them with logical arguments - which then leads to "you got to let me talk" "you're frustrated" "you're lying" rage rage. Leverage your patience against these individuals, and ask more of these "What do you think X means/what do you think I mean when I say X - or "can you describe X". Also, the deeper you drill down on the logistics of a particular issue, the less ground people like DM have to stand on. They talk in broad generalities and platitudes - they all have a grand plan, but they can never give you directions beyond "we just have to walk in that direction". If you can diplomatically point that out and exploit their lack of knowledge, I think it could look very rhetorically effective. Just my 2 cents - really enjoy your content!
Hooooooly shit I'd love to see a talk timer between these two. I'd bet money that DM spoke 5x as much as EB and cut him off on over 50% of his statements
Econoboi is a saint for his patience. The frustrating thing is not that DemonMama takes 20 minutes to respond to half a sentence. The frustrating thing is that her 20 minute response ISN'T EVEN ADDRESSING WHAT WAS JUST SAID -_-....
I don't know why anyone speaks to this person. She is rude, condescending, evasive, uncharitable, and continously interrupting. Good on you for trying though.
She wasn't too bad in this one compared to how she usually is. Granted the bar isn't particularly high for her. She still made a lot of the stupid faces throughout this debate. Not sure if that is intentional or not though.
Demonmama's chat is unbelievable. I haven't seen a whole group of people so ubiquitously ideologically driven and incapable of critical thinking before. I guess I didn't really expect anything else from fans of her, but it is still mind-blowing to see.
@@jamesjanes7936 Oh I've seen it a couple times. I try to stay away though as it makes me lose faith in people. Not just because of how little critical thinking goes on, but also because of how many people are in there at any given time.
@@edwardcashman8723 lol trueeee most stay for tho whole 10 hrs just listening to the guy lie. I’m not gonna lie during lockdown I spent sometime there, it’s insane how much people just agree w his lies.
I’ve never really listened to Demon Mama and I probably won’t go out of my way to consume anymore of their content. This was a really frustrating conversation to listen to and I’m really impressed with your ability to stay calm even when your opponent claimed otherwise. I think I’m more aligned with Demon Mamas future outlook, but this one was difficult to follow.
I really appreciate this really patient and methodical style of debate Econoboi uses. The way it contrasts with bombastic rhetoric makes certain moments devastating in a way I really enjoy. I mean to me that whole exchange about coconuts was just hilarious: "it's not reductionist at all!" The same with the end of the Vaush debate where the "neoliberal propaganda" research turned out to be authored by a Marxist. It might be more subtle than a dunk that someone like Destiny would try to go for, but I just don't think the payoff would be as funny or as much of a win if it wasn't painfully clear how patient and polite EB was being.
it’s always wild when leftists make the argument that capitalist societies are coercive because you either have to work or starve, but they rarely acknowledge the fact that in any socialist society you’d have the same state controlled coercion to work jobs you don’t wanna work for people who can’t work (etc). coercion is built into every economic system, *especially* for the disadvantaged. it’s about developing systems that disperse it as fairly as possible among its citizens, while also as evenly as possible among its institutions
This went wrong at such an early stage. You explained how palm oil is a bad example because it's very substitutable, and her next sentence is literally claiming that it's essential to that supply chain as if she didn't even hear you talk. She clearly lacks a basic understanding of econ terms that even I can muster, and I SUCK at econ (which is why I'm here btw)
I love your calmness and patience in these conversations, a breathe of fresh air. I think a person is more likely to change their stance if you're polite than aggressively put them in a defense position. I can't imagine someone truly conceding points by means of aggression.
I'd like to offer a bit of constructive criticism. So number one, it would be to write things down. Demonmama is able to get away with moving the goal posts all over the world by subtly tweaking her words. And number two, it would be to push back harder. Demonmama made a large sum of incredible stupid statements (gay marriage is about the economy) and received very little push back. Now you might be opposed to this, but I would shoot out data to back up your points. Demonmama, because she knows nothing about economics, has to engage in story-telling. Simply attacking her empirically will at least get her to stumble. (Pointing out the definition of social spending was good, and she stumbled into nonsensical garbage about public art, but you failed to follow up). 1:16:21 is probably my biggest complaint. Demonmama was arguing that we have an abundance of resources, implying that her 'system' wouldn't have to manage it. What you should have done is asked her why she thinks we have the levels of production that we have. You somewhat did this, but failed to catch her word game where she moved it to talking about jeff bezos. I think just by writing down what the opponent says and by pushing back harder, your debates will go much better.
Idk about the pushback part, have you seem someone pushback against demonmama? She leaves and never talks to the person again, she is incapable of a real debate.
You seem like a reasonable person who just wants to have a genuine conversation. Unfortunately that means you won't find much ground in the twitch politics 'sphere'
Love how she says his ideal system is wishful thinking when the system he is advocating for literally exists right now in Nordic countries, whereas hers does not exist at all.
I thought after their terrible take on "self diagnosing" I heard it all but "I don't think laws against queer people were around before Capitalism" is a new low for a smooth brain like her.
Jfc. You let her get away with alot. “ we have no idea if social spending has actually helped people or increased.” Social spending is often measured as percent of real gdp.
You did a good job on this one man. DM can only follow a dialogue tree and can’t engage with your points. It’s going to be cool to see you grow in the new future.
At 20:30 after she had just gone on and on for 5+minutes Econoboi finally gets his turn to speak and she interrupts him and implies that he was speaking for too long. Good lord
1:28:12 is a perfect summary of the conversation here because she doesn't clearly communicate what you meant by "risk-free." I don't believe she understands what you mean.
Ur too kind for this world and your maturity is refreshing in an online space of toxic shit stirring. I would've not had the same patience. You did good with calling out a lot of her bs in the best possible manner.
"I am an intersectionalist." *Immediately follows with* "class and social are explicitly linked". You might need to check your definition of intersectionality there Demonmama. Because those are mutually exclusive. The point of intersectionality is that there are several - explicitly separate things - that can both effect a specific situation or individual. If they are intrinsically linked, they are not separate. Good job surviving this one.
Well, the argument would be that those intersecting identities/traits have economic repercussions. Sure being African American and Female are separate categories that have social repercussions. But it also tends to affect people economically, more specifically being an African American woman would likely hurt your economic opportunity. But that is more applied than generalized. Because there are instances where being an African American woman has not had much of a measurable impact on their economic status (Obama's daughters for example probably are doing just fine economically or benefit in wealthy progressive circles from being a minority.)
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 the fact that Obama's daughter exists as a counter example is explicitly my point of my comment. If two factors are linked the way demonmama was talking about, there wouldn't be exceptions, and they wouldn't be separate things. And you need to be able to have discussions about the separate pieces to better understand the overall system and find ways to actually solve the problems they create, rather than apply bandaid solutions that don't actually fix anything. Intersectionality explicitly does not dismiss the fact that trans and racial discrimination are distantly social issues either. They are social issues that affect the resulting application of economic issues. But equating the two like she did is exactly the problem. Instead she insists on going with the "more transgender people of color as drone pilots will fix things" style of argument. Instant loss.
@@rebekkahill4664 class differences 1000% can cause marginalization. Thinking otherwise is utterly insane. Just look at literally any situation, historical record, or caste system, as they all result in those in those in the lower classes be marginalized in nearly every way possible by the upper elites. Peasants and kings, nobles and serfs, fast food workers and CEOs.
@@Skelethin you misunderstand me. Perhaps marginalisation was the wrong word. Of course those in lower class have less power in society, but the "othering" of groups by which I mean poc, lgbt, basically anyone who doesn't make up the majority, is not caused by our current economic system. The discrimination they face because of being different, causes them to be put lower down in class system, not the other way round.
@@pellelindtner3488 Yeah its so annoying how they are constantly just virtue signaling to their audience instead of engaging in the conversation, they are the definition of bad faith yet their audience is so ideologically blinded that they dont realize how the streamer extracts their pockets by keeping them in an echo chamber. The palm oil example was just brought up because people imagine poor brown people getting exploited by evil white colonial monopoly looking capitalists and that plays well with the left...
Only 50ish mins in but I think this debate is going better than the one with Vaush. Your small jabs of of “let me finish”, slight interruptions, etc. worked well rhetorically. Your tone remained calm, but you cut off BS talking points. Don’t take this to mean you should start shouting matches though :) On the flip side, following up statement with “to certain extent” hurts your arguments. I understand trying to avoid absolutes, but it gives your opponent easy points to ramble on about. Maybe a different phrase would be more rhetorically effective. I think your arguments would be supported by more examples. Like I think DM outperformed you in that sense, she was able to bring up concrete examples. They have been beside the point but it still benefitted her and disadvantaged you. Overall, I enjoyed the debate, nice job!
Love your channel. I notice you let her jump around a lot. Just try and make her stick to a subject. Every time you catch her on a point she’s making being poor. She just jumps to a new example. Great stuff just work on controlling the flow of the conversation. (I work in Tech Sales stuff I have to do it every day). It’s hard but your a smart guy you can do it. Great work
Your videos are always top quality, glad I found you recently. When I heard you were going up against Demon Mama I was dreading how infuriating it would be to watch and it didn't disappoint. So annoying how she'd go on a massive diatribe, then when you come to respond instantly starts cutting you off. Insufferable. But you kept your patience and held your ground and I think came off much better rhetorically and in an argumentative sense. Good job. :)
She can't talk economic systems, so she needs to devolve the conversation into discussing social issues which absolutely isn't pertinent to the talk about capitalism vs socialism.
To think that a person will be able to stay in a commune if they just flat out refuse to work kinda tells me the real reason she wants that kind of society
This might be worse than the vaush discussion. while vaush got angry and tried to claim bad faith without justification demon mama is similar in the sense that she feels very strong about her position but can't really defend it, early on she says she doesn't feel strongly about socialism but tries defending anytime it was compared to capitalism and it felt like after watching the vaush convo she realized she was out of her depth but wouldn't back away from her position. She tried to move the discussion into talking around economics because that was their only familiarity with discussing stuff like this rather than how the systems function, for an example she tries to bring up issues such as the treatment of queer people under capitalism and imply it as being unique or rare in other systems but when pushed about these in other systems they try walking it back but when it's rephrased that it's not an issue of capitalism she tries to imply again that other systems won't have these issues when medival Europe is brought up.
DM lost me with the mandatory schooling and supply chains topics. Not only was she wrong about those topics, she was insufferably bad faith about both topics.
Every time i hear Coconut island analogy, i want to cry. there is so much wrong in this analogy, i could write a whole essay on how stupid it is. And i know almost nothing about economy. But i will know more in the future because i subbed to you after this video.
talks about how your position is wishful thinking, but has zero solutions or systems to propose and vaguely alludes to communism. What is she even arguing.
If a socialist revolution succeeded somewhere, would we say they are the inheritors of all of the past socialist movements' slavery, deaths, and exploitation? Would a socialist country need to give reparations for past misdeeds? Or does this critique only apply to... unfavored nations?
I have never seen someone be so bad faith. Watching her never even nibble the bullet when she was pinned on a point and just squirm behind empty words was the most frustrating thing I've seen in a while. All this woman cares about is posturing. Her lighting that blunt whenever she was losing a point made me die of cringe.
It’s absolutely incredible how calm you stay throughout this even though she is being so obviously bad faith. Every time you ask her a question the response she gives is “that depends” there’s never anything that she actually stands on or holds to. You did a really great job.
Demon mama says you arent pragmatic, but has ZERO suggestions to how anything could be improved in any way, only criticizms of how things wont make any difference. which is the opposite of being pragmatic.
Please, Please, Please overlords at youtube give me a 3x rate so I can skip past DM's gish gallop rants and terrible takes. Talks for 80% of the time and forms her opinions b4 econoboi even finishes his statement.. commend you Eb for staying so clam through this insanity..
Thank you for your sacrifice. DemonMama will never let a conversation get into specifics. She'll just shift the topic around any time you try to go there.
Nice work mate. My suggestion would be to avoid saying “to a certain extent” every time the opponent says something. It feels like you’re being extremely charitable to absurd claims they make.
Demonmama is really the queen of gish galloping. The perfect example is how fast she runs past the question of "how will this society function" posed by Econoboi. She starts answering, but immidiately gallops past the actual question and into all kinds of unrelated points. I've seen Destiny and one other guy try to hold her down on a single point, but then she lashes out and cries about not being able to talk.
dude, you need to stop being so polite. In your futile attempt to have a productive debate you let that person get away with tons of really bad arguments and made up facts. You're barely resisting. Same issue in your Vaush debate. It makes you position look weak even though the facts are on your side. Show some teeth.
I appreciate your feedback, but I really disagree with this mindset. It's not that I'm unable to be aggressive or animated, I just didn't think it was necessary here or in the Vaush debate. I respond substantively to all of her points, and I jump in multiple times throughout this debate. I think a lot of people are use to seeing Destiny/Vaush get super animated and/or yell in debate, but that's really not my style, and I don't think that's always the best way to debate. It's not that Destiny/Vaush are poor debaters, quite the opposite, but there is more than one way to formulate an effective counter argument.
@@Econoboi I agree with you here. At this point this is your very unique and appealing brand. I just hope you can keep this chill attitude well into the future. Some people make it very difficult not to want to strangle them lol
Were you attempting not to burn a bridge by saying she was in good faith? Because watching this conversation it's hard to say the she wasn't at some parts at least a little bad faith.
She seems to count on her audience to not listen to her conversation partner and also not to listen to her either while she mindlessly rattles off the popular leftist noises at incredible length.
Socialist with no ideas or systems or desires for what replaces the current system tells the socdem reading from studied that he's a magical thinker. Quality content.
Why ask for a 3rd person pronoun preference when you engage in a 2nd person conversation? Every pronoun used is "you" in that setting, so it seems performative virtue signaling...
There is a reason nobody wants to interact with Demonmoma, she pivots, rude, never has the answer but always wants to tell you yours is wrong, wants to give 5 points but not even let you barely answer one, she is a bad faith actor 100%
I normally try to avoid personal attacks, but Demonmama is SO uncharitable and spiteful, also this is shallow but the faces she pulls really fucking annoy me
She can't honestly be saying that anti-gay sentiment comes primarily from capital trying to control individual lives? these anti-gsy laws are primarily from Abrahamic religions posing controls on people's personal/sexual lives. that was under all kinds of pre-capitalist forms of production. I'd argue capitalism's perpensity to change social mores to maximize profits by opening markets is in large part responsible for a lot of positive social change. Example, Jackie Robinson and other black players made a new Market because they made blacks come to games more so they started normalizing blacks in baseball and sports. That's capital
![[Panel Discussion] Secondary Sanctions and the international legal order](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SLDd0MBTlPE/mqdefault.jpg)
econoboi’s patience makes me think he has a wonderful marriage
And schmeat
@@megafanflash I laughed. You win tonight's best joke award.
Anyone debating demonmama sure needs it lmao
This is such a sweet thing to say 🥲
When a communist calls a socialdemocrat magical thinker
She called a system that practically exists already "magical thinking," but thinks her tribal commune system is all very reasonable and not at all a pipe dream.
Virgin coherent worldview haver
Chad moral grandstander
💀💀💀
If I could give gold to a youtube comment I would.
Econoboi: “You agreed to this debate format”
Demonmama: “yes”
Econoboi: “but, now in the middle of the debate, you don’t want that format.”
Demonmama: “yes”
Econoboi: “Well, can you see how that is frustrating?”
Demonmama: “Thats a you problem.”
… wow
Do you have a time stamp? Or a rough idea of where that's at? I don't want to miss that when digging for stuff later.
@@Skelethin roughly 58:40
Not direct quotes, but basically what happened lol
@@thetimssportstalk3160 You're doing God's work
@@thetimssportstalk3160 It's close enough to a direct quote honestly, or at least an exact portrayal of what happened.
I thought that response was a great example of why people like DM deciding how to handle economics and other things would probably be terrifying.
Just imagine it…
“I was supposed to get food instead of these bread crumbs”
“That’s a you problem”
"Medieval Europe was more tolerant of Homosexuals than modern day society" must be the most ignorant thing i have heard a person say this year
This was the most painful part of the whole discussion. She really doesn't know what she's talking about
timestamp pls?
@@EusebiusAT more or less 33:00
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Back then (the Medieval period - in Europe) if you thought you had a gay son you shipped him off to become a priest or a monk (no sex allowed). I don't think "lesbian" was a concept they had acknowledged yet.
You will always lose a debate against someone who doesn't even have a system to defend IMO because they can be on the offensive the whole time. They have no solutions, but they don't even need them.
I think this particular one was more of a draw. Demon Mama rambled too much producing little substance.
@@spacedoohicky no, you are wrong. the "audience" lost this debate
@@k0lettaDOM Some maybe lost. I think Econoboi did well in staying calm, and taking on someone with influence.
@@spacedoohicky I was making a quip about how unpleasant it was to listen to the whole debate
@@k0lettaDOM I figured you were. Yes it was unpleasant. Every now, and then there was a short respite from Demon Mama's word vomit.
Patience of a fucking saint, this man.
I love how improving the Nordic Model is Magical Thinking but communes where people don't need to work and have endless time to build creative works isn't.
Also the "let's get rid of countries and just have a lot of autonomous villages." What's the worst that could happen? She doesn't think about the fact that while she doesn't have to do things she doesn't like, Jimmy from Alabama doesn't either. The amount of regression of any kind of social issues would be so insane.
@@Ballet40k I was just thinking about the walking dead when she started talking about that.
@@Ballet40k She also seems to never have thought of why we do live in these large nations. One reason is protection from threats. What happens if the autonomus village next door decides to take over your autonomus village? Who manages disputes here?
@@pellelindtner3488 I wonder.. What used to happen in ye olden days when villages had disputes? Was it car? Jar? OH! War. And no matter how civilized a people gets, if the only one who provides safety and stability is a fucking warlord, then they are the one people flock to. Just a reality. That's one of the reasons why people join gangs even in the western world. I guess I'm getting a bit off topic, but all this is worth thinking about.
@@patrickwilson1804 the movie “The Road” depicts their world more realistically (no zombies)
DM in a raised voice: "I know you're frustrated but hold on."
EB cool as a cucumber: "To be fair I'm not."
He´s the best
Demon Mama: speaks for 2 and a half minutes straight
Econoboi: well, I don't completely disagree, I actually think -
Demon Mama: well have you considered my next 2 and a half minute speech that's barely on topic, followed up with 3 examples that allow me to dominate the discussion?
Fucking hell DM doesn't give him a chance to say fucking anything without cutting him off and going on a diatribe
That’s DM’s debate strategy same as Vaush.
@@MithosDagon Lol. I was watching debate some people and his approach was just to talk on top of people...
Eb: (explains how the world currently works)
DM: “That’s wishful thinking! Now let me tell you about how a stateless communist society will work….”
Rule #1 of streamer debates; Never debate Demon Momma without a moderator.
Wrong.
The rule is, 'never debate demon M'.
This is one of the dumbest most dishonest ppl on the internet.
She does not deserve any attention whatsoever.
Im actually suprised, that a person like her, with zero knowledge of econ has the confidence to talk about this stuff on stream and even debate someone. She literally makes an argument about sozial prescriptions in a debate about economics... pls dont let someone like her just talk the whole time even interupting you. If you want to get into this whole debation thing you have to be more agressiv and take close to half of the time of the talk. ty for the great content tho
I agree, but damn was it fun to watch demonmama make a fool out of herself
Assumedly if he pushed harder, DemonMama would just hang up the call and not talk to him again. Outside of entertainment for his own audience, I don't know how productive that would be. Realistically, though, having any kind of debate with DemonMama on their own channel is effectively pointless. They control the narrative with a vice grip and actively steer clear of any points that might persuade their audience in a way that doesn't align with their world view. You aren't exactly going to reach an audience so entrenched in that level of authoritarianism. Destiny's view of just not engaging with them at all was probably the right decision, imo.
@@spookylilghost yeah youre probably right
You can't "debate" with DemonMama if you don't let her interrupt, she'll just start screaming you out of it then. She is incredibly good at talking over people and really does not like the same tactics being turned on her.
She's one of those people who constantly sound like she's doing an oral book report on a book she didn't read.
You have the patience of a saint, my man. Even at 2x, she's incredibly frustrating to listen to, it doesn't feel like she's listening at all.
i feel like 2x would make her more frustrating.....
@@martingaggero8462 why even watch at that point lol.
That's because SemenTrauma is legit the most incompetent dunce ever created by humanity.
>She
Thank you for reminding me to increase the speed of the video
At 1:00:00 she talks for almost 8 straight minutes just to answer "what kind of socialism do you advocate for". Jfc she loves to hear herself talk. Unbelievable patience from econoboi.
She pivots every time she can’t engage with the conversation in a deeper way
Ubi: a fantasy equivalent to aliens giving people food
America turns into a anarchist commune: probably in our lifetime
"This is magical thinking!!!" "I support a system that has never worked or maybe even never been tried and in that system you wont have to do anything and there will still be resources for everybody."
Who said you won’t have to do anything lol
@@KizTheCat She literally kept repeating that in her society nobody would have to work
"I think social issues like gay marriage can't really be tied to economics"
"I think gay marriage bans can be directly tied to capitalism"
*econoboi drinks an entire bottle of jack* "HOW"
It's insane how you can be talking to someone who's completely uneducated on the issues, but it still comes out looking kind of balanced. I'm not telling you to be more aggressive at all, but some different phrasing I think would go a long way. Instead of responding to so much with "that's fair", which makes it seems reasonable you could say something like "so, that's incorrect" and proceed to explain why. You don't need to change your demeanor at all, I actually think it's perfect that you're calm and courteous, but you seem to cede so much ground.
Still, loving the debates bro
I think econoboi is confusing how to have an effective 1 on 1 interpersonal conversation with how to have an effective conversation in front of an audience. They are very different.
Agreed
"Rules for thee, but not for me!" Something beautiful about talking about the environment while smoking. Truth is, she partakes on the vices of the society as much as the next person, she's just found a way to justify not feeling guilty about it to herself.
It’s okay, if she didn’t smoke that cigarette, someone else would.
@@pandasticus Perfectomundo. Couldn't have put it better myself.
Inbelievable that people like her exist. This was a wasted debate, because she gets to trot out her flawless, never tried before system, while you have to defend a very real, very flawed system.
No shit her system is better, every utopia usually is.
I would stick to debating narrower issues. Things like increasing capital gains, etc. Not something that allows the lunatics to spread their nonsense.
She didn't even advocate for a system lol. She was deathly afraid of owning up to a single position.
@@WalterBurn that's why a lot of leftist stuff is so popular. it's a great way to let out the frustrations with a material world where you don't get what you want, it provides a feeling of moral superiority bc you step out of material concerns and it creates a radical movement where you can both feel special AND apart of a group (similar to why folks join cults/mlms)
@@OlPalJoe This is the most based statement I have ever read.
@@GuyShōtō yeah unfortunately i had to learn the hard way by buying into that garbage for the first half of college. I'm glad i grew up
@@OlPalJoe Plus I'm always baffled by how these people talk about revolution but none of them could tell you how to man a rifle or give the basics in guerrilla strategy. Most of these people fall into a depression if you pick apart their beliefs to hard or get their pronouns wrong. And none of them have ever participated or get remotely involved in local politics. It truly baffles me.
"Would you like to tell me a system you'd prefer that would alleviate these issues?"
"I'll tell you about a system that can't and it's called social democracy"
I honestly don't think she's ever thought about it, she just knows shitting on your opinion makes her look better while having to offer nothing. At this point her being kinda sorta a socialist just looks like a ploy to be a socialist when you argue against it but not a socialist if you attack her beliefs.
30 minutes in and she cannot separate econ from sociology
Oh wow thats awesome im 2 minutes in
People like DM are incredibly frustrating to converse with. You can practically hear the bolts rattling in their heads when you confront them with logical arguments - which then leads to "you got to let me talk" "you're frustrated" "you're lying" rage rage.
Leverage your patience against these individuals, and ask more of these "What do you think X means/what do you think I mean when I say X - or "can you describe X". Also, the deeper you drill down on the logistics of a particular issue, the less ground people like DM have to stand on. They talk in broad generalities and platitudes - they all have a grand plan, but they can never give you directions beyond "we just have to walk in that direction". If you can diplomatically point that out and exploit their lack of knowledge, I think it could look very rhetorically effective.
Just my 2 cents - really enjoy your content!
Hooooooly shit I'd love to see a talk timer between these two. I'd bet money that DM spoke 5x as much as EB and cut him off on over 50% of his statements
Econoboi is a saint for his patience. The frustrating thing is not that DemonMama takes 20 minutes to respond to half a sentence. The frustrating thing is that her 20 minute response ISN'T EVEN ADDRESSING WHAT WAS JUST SAID -_-....
on god she talks 10 times more
Fr fr
"You're doing magical thinking, Pot!" accused the Kettle.
Her arguing that it's not reductionist to say your system is just coconut island was probably the hardest part of the debate to watch lmao
DM is the master of talking a lot without actually really saying anything
I don't know why anyone speaks to this person. She is rude, condescending, evasive, uncharitable, and continously interrupting. Good on you for trying though.
She wasn't too bad in this one compared to how she usually is. Granted the bar isn't particularly high for her. She still made a lot of the stupid faces throughout this debate. Not sure if that is intentional or not though.
This was actually one of her most reasonable performances. Lol
@@derrekgillespie413 well that's sad. Probably because he was so patient and willing to concede points or extend the benefit of the doubt
@@derrekgillespie413 I still felt like the condescension and interrupting was pretty evident in this one
Demonmama's chat is unbelievable. I haven't seen a whole group of people so ubiquitously ideologically driven and incapable of critical thinking before. I guess I didn't really expect anything else from fans of her, but it is still mind-blowing to see.
Try to see hasans chat. This shit is a cult
@@jamesjanes7936 Oh I've seen it a couple times. I try to stay away though as it makes me lose faith in people. Not just because of how little critical thinking goes on, but also because of how many people are in there at any given time.
@@edwardcashman8723 lol trueeee most stay for tho whole 10 hrs just listening to the guy lie. I’m not gonna lie during lockdown I spent sometime there, it’s insane how much people just agree w his lies.
I’ve never really listened to Demon Mama and I probably won’t go out of my way to consume anymore of their content. This was a really frustrating conversation to listen to and I’m really impressed with your ability to stay calm even when your opponent claimed otherwise. I think I’m more aligned with Demon Mamas future outlook, but this one was difficult to follow.
I really appreciate this really patient and methodical style of debate Econoboi uses. The way it contrasts with bombastic rhetoric makes certain moments devastating in a way I really enjoy.
I mean to me that whole exchange about coconuts was just hilarious: "it's not reductionist at all!"
The same with the end of the Vaush debate where the "neoliberal propaganda" research turned out to be authored by a Marxist.
It might be more subtle than a dunk that someone like Destiny would try to go for, but I just don't think the payoff would be as funny or as much of a win if it wasn't painfully clear how patient and polite EB was being.
it’s always wild when leftists make the argument that capitalist societies are coercive because you either have to work or starve, but they rarely acknowledge the fact that in any socialist society you’d have the same state controlled coercion to work jobs you don’t wanna work for people who can’t work (etc). coercion is built into every economic system, *especially* for the disadvantaged. it’s about developing systems that disperse it as fairly as possible among its citizens, while also as evenly as possible among its institutions
This went wrong at such an early stage. You explained how palm oil is a bad example because it's very substitutable, and her next sentence is literally claiming that it's essential to that supply chain as if she didn't even hear you talk. She clearly lacks a basic understanding of econ terms that even I can muster, and I SUCK at econ (which is why I'm here btw)
I love your calmness and patience in these conversations, a breathe of fresh air. I think a person is more likely to change their stance if you're polite than aggressively put them in a defense position. I can't imagine someone truly conceding points by means of aggression.
It always amazes me how Demon Mama can say a whole lot of nothing, but still in an extremely condescending manner.
I'd like to offer a bit of constructive criticism. So number one, it would be to write things down. Demonmama is able to get away with moving the goal posts all over the world by subtly tweaking her words. And number two, it would be to push back harder. Demonmama made a large sum of incredible stupid statements (gay marriage is about the economy) and received very little push back. Now you might be opposed to this, but I would shoot out data to back up your points. Demonmama, because she knows nothing about economics, has to engage in story-telling. Simply attacking her empirically will at least get her to stumble. (Pointing out the definition of social spending was good, and she stumbled into nonsensical garbage about public art, but you failed to follow up).
1:16:21 is probably my biggest complaint. Demonmama was arguing that we have an abundance of resources, implying that her 'system' wouldn't have to manage it. What you should have done is asked her why she thinks we have the levels of production that we have. You somewhat did this, but failed to catch her word game where she moved it to talking about jeff bezos.
I think just by writing down what the opponent says and by pushing back harder, your debates will go much better.
Oooh this is a pretty good (positive) critique
Very good advice, and also what I picked up on.
Categorising public are as social spending is pretty hilarious.
Idk about the pushback part, have you seem someone pushback against demonmama? She leaves and never talks to the person again, she is incapable of a real debate.
I've never seen someone as bad faith as demon mama. She actually makes vaush seem honest.
You seem like a reasonable person who just wants to have a genuine conversation. Unfortunately that means you won't find much ground in the twitch politics 'sphere'
Econoboi, I’m a fan. But what was the point of this debate? She obviously has no understanding of econ theory.
Talk to controversial people => Their antifans might start following you.
@@TheGIGACapitalist win win dollars dollars
Not only that, but a superficial understanding of history, aswell.
To expose that exact flaw
But you can maybe show that to people in her chat and change their minds
econoboi gave his pronouns in this debate.
Love how she says his ideal system is wishful thinking when the system he is advocating for literally exists right now in Nordic countries, whereas hers does not exist at all.
The real crime in this debate is DM holding her cigarette like a 10 year old.
I thought after their terrible take on "self diagnosing" I heard it all but "I don't think laws against queer people were around before Capitalism" is a new low for a smooth brain like her.
"I want to go back and forth on these ideas" = Let me interrupt you whenever you try to make a point
Jfc. You let her get away with alot. “ we have no idea if social spending has actually helped people or increased.” Social spending is often measured as percent of real gdp.
You did a good job on this one man. DM can only follow a dialogue tree and can’t engage with your points. It’s going to be cool to see you grow in the new future.
At 20:30 after she had just gone on and on for 5+minutes Econoboi finally gets his turn to speak and she interrupts him and implies that he was speaking for too long. Good lord
I love your channel. I was looking for a new debate channel 🖤
Thank you! Don't forget to check out my scripted videos! haha
1:28:12 is a perfect summary of the conversation here because she doesn't clearly communicate what you meant by "risk-free." I don't believe she understands what you mean.
Ur too kind for this world and your maturity is refreshing in an online space of toxic shit stirring. I would've not had the same patience. You did good with calling out a lot of her bs in the best possible manner.
You, sir, are an absolutely incredible debater.
"I am an intersectionalist."
*Immediately follows with* "class and social are explicitly linked".
You might need to check your definition of intersectionality there Demonmama. Because those are mutually exclusive.
The point of intersectionality is that there are several - explicitly separate things - that can both effect a specific situation or individual. If they are intrinsically linked, they are not separate.
Good job surviving this one.
Well, the argument would be that those intersecting identities/traits have economic repercussions. Sure being African American and Female are separate categories that have social repercussions. But it also tends to affect people economically, more specifically being an African American woman would likely hurt your economic opportunity.
But that is more applied than generalized. Because there are instances where being an African American woman has not had much of a measurable impact on their economic status (Obama's daughters for example probably are doing just fine economically or benefit in wealthy progressive circles from being a minority.)
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 the fact that Obama's daughter exists as a counter example is explicitly my point of my comment.
If two factors are linked the way demonmama was talking about, there wouldn't be exceptions, and they wouldn't be separate things.
And you need to be able to have discussions about the separate pieces to better understand the overall system and find ways to actually solve the problems they create, rather than apply bandaid solutions that don't actually fix anything.
Intersectionality explicitly does not dismiss the fact that trans and racial discrimination are distantly social issues either. They are social issues that affect the resulting application of economic issues. But equating the two like she did is exactly the problem.
Instead she insists on going with the "more transgender people of color as drone pilots will fix things" style of argument.
Instant loss.
Marginalisation caused class differences, class differences don't cause marginalisation. Demonmama has her cause and effect the wrong way round.
@@rebekkahill4664 class differences 1000% can cause marginalization. Thinking otherwise is utterly insane.
Just look at literally any situation, historical record, or caste system, as they all result in those in those in the lower classes be marginalized in nearly every way possible by the upper elites. Peasants and kings, nobles and serfs, fast food workers and CEOs.
@@Skelethin you misunderstand me. Perhaps marginalisation was the wrong word. Of course those in lower class have less power in society, but the "othering" of groups by which I mean poc, lgbt, basically anyone who doesn't make up the majority, is not caused by our current economic system. The discrimination they face because of being different, causes them to be put lower down in class system, not the other way round.
Big props to you for surviving this, the amount of times she misunderstands you in bad faith is actually cancer
also the fact that both she and vowsh feel like they need to give examples for every braindead take they give is so condescending
@@KhaalixD The first example DM brings up doesn't even make sense. Palm oil could easily be substituted.
@@pellelindtner3488 Yeah its so annoying how they are constantly just virtue signaling to their audience instead of engaging in the conversation, they are the definition of bad faith yet their audience is so ideologically blinded that they dont realize how the streamer extracts their pockets by keeping them in an echo chamber. The palm oil example was just brought up because people imagine poor brown people getting exploited by evil white colonial monopoly looking capitalists and that plays well with the left...
Only 50ish mins in but I think this debate is going better than the one with Vaush. Your small jabs of of “let me finish”, slight interruptions, etc. worked well rhetorically. Your tone remained calm, but you cut off BS talking points. Don’t take this to mean you should start shouting matches though :)
On the flip side, following up statement with “to certain extent” hurts your arguments. I understand trying to avoid absolutes, but it gives your opponent easy points to ramble on about. Maybe a different phrase would be more rhetorically effective.
I think your arguments would be supported by more examples. Like I think DM outperformed you in that sense, she was able to bring up concrete examples. They have been beside the point but it still benefitted her and disadvantaged you.
Overall, I enjoyed the debate, nice job!
Thanks for your feedback!
Love your channel. I notice you let her jump around a lot. Just try and make her stick to a subject.
Every time you catch her on a point she’s making being poor. She just jumps to a new example.
Great stuff just work on controlling the flow of the conversation. (I work in Tech Sales stuff I have to do it every day). It’s hard but your a smart guy you can do it. Great work
Your videos are always top quality, glad I found you recently. When I heard you were going up against Demon Mama I was dreading how infuriating it would be to watch and it didn't disappoint. So annoying how she'd go on a massive diatribe, then when you come to respond instantly starts cutting you off. Insufferable. But you kept your patience and held your ground and I think came off much better rhetorically and in an argumentative sense. Good job. :)
is it just me or does she not engage a single point?
How tf are you so calm, literally Buddha
She can't talk economic systems, so she needs to devolve the conversation into discussing social issues which absolutely isn't pertinent to the talk about capitalism vs socialism.
i'm at the coconut island thing and she's absolutely never looked into policy beyond what she sees on TH-cam.
econoboi is officially a bad faither.....(he said it was a good convo(really bad convo))
To think that a person will be able to stay in a commune if they just flat out refuse to work kinda tells me the real reason she wants that kind of society
This might be worse than the vaush discussion. while vaush got angry and tried to claim bad faith without justification demon mama is similar in the sense that she feels very strong about her position but can't really defend it, early on she says she doesn't feel strongly about socialism but tries defending anytime it was compared to capitalism and it felt like after watching the vaush convo she realized she was out of her depth but wouldn't back away from her position. She tried to move the discussion into talking around economics because that was their only familiarity with discussing stuff like this rather than how the systems function, for an example she tries to bring up issues such as the treatment of queer people under capitalism and imply it as being unique or rare in other systems but when pushed about these in other systems they try walking it back but when it's rephrased that it's not an issue of capitalism she tries to imply again that other systems won't have these issues when medival Europe is brought up.
She basically a dumber version of Vaush that will never concede a point ever
DM lost me with the mandatory schooling and supply chains topics. Not only was she wrong about those topics, she was insufferably bad faith about both topics.
Every time i hear Coconut island analogy, i want to cry. there is so much wrong in this analogy, i could write a whole essay on how stupid it is. And i know almost nothing about economy. But i will know more in the future because i subbed to you after this video.
Vaush's coconut analogy is such cancer.
talks about how your position is wishful thinking, but has zero solutions or systems to propose and vaguely alludes to communism. What is she even arguing.
If a socialist revolution succeeded somewhere, would we say they are the inheritors of all of the past socialist movements' slavery, deaths, and exploitation? Would a socialist country need to give reparations for past misdeeds? Or does this critique only apply to... unfavored nations?
I have never seen someone be so bad faith. Watching her never even nibble the bullet when she was pinned on a point and just squirm behind empty words was the most frustrating thing I've seen in a while.
All this woman cares about is posturing. Her lighting that blunt whenever she was losing a point made me die of cringe.
The $3k a month question was so good. Holy shit
I’ve never seen smoking look so uncool
It’s absolutely incredible how calm you stay throughout this even though she is being so obviously bad faith. Every time you ask her a question the response she gives is “that depends” there’s never anything that she actually stands on or holds to. You did a really great job.
Demon mama says you arent pragmatic, but has ZERO suggestions to how anything could be improved in any way, only criticizms of how things wont make any difference. which is the opposite of being pragmatic.
Please, Please, Please overlords at youtube give me a 3x rate so I can skip past DM's gish gallop rants and terrible takes. Talks for 80% of the time and forms her opinions b4 econoboi even finishes his statement.. commend you Eb for staying so clam through this insanity..
Thank you for your sacrifice. DemonMama will never let a conversation get into specifics. She'll just shift the topic around any time you try to go there.
Nope fuck it 40min is all I can take, fuck this, Demonmama is the amalgamation of everything bad about Vaush
Holy shit she said Social Democracy included social prescriptions because it had social in the name??? Bro what the fuck was this.
ready to face palm every time she speaks
Nice work mate. My suggestion would be to avoid saying “to a certain extent” every time the opponent says something. It feels like you’re being extremely charitable to absurd claims they make.
Demonmama is really the queen of gish galloping. The perfect example is how fast she runs past the question of "how will this society function" posed by Econoboi. She starts answering, but immidiately gallops past the actual question and into all kinds of unrelated points.
I've seen Destiny and one other guy try to hold her down on a single point, but then she lashes out and cries about not being able to talk.
It's funny how someone advocating for a utopian system where no one has to work, has the gull to call a social democrat a magical thinker.
dude, you need to stop being so polite. In your futile attempt to have a productive debate you let that person get away with tons of really bad arguments and made up facts. You're barely resisting. Same issue in your Vaush debate. It makes you position look weak even though the facts are on your side. Show some teeth.
I appreciate your feedback, but I really disagree with this mindset. It's not that I'm unable to be aggressive or animated, I just didn't think it was necessary here or in the Vaush debate. I respond substantively to all of her points, and I jump in multiple times throughout this debate. I think a lot of people are use to seeing Destiny/Vaush get super animated and/or yell in debate, but that's really not my style, and I don't think that's always the best way to debate. It's not that Destiny/Vaush are poor debaters, quite the opposite, but there is more than one way to formulate an effective counter argument.
@@Econoboi I agree with you here. At this point this is your very unique and appealing brand. I just hope you can keep this chill attitude well into the future. Some people make it very difficult not to want to strangle them lol
DM: "You're trying to character assasinate me!"
Also DM: "Let me character assasinate you."
I have avoided watching any demonmama debates so far but im going to suck it up for this one
Were you attempting not to burn a bridge by saying she was in good faith? Because watching this conversation it's hard to say the she wasn't at some parts at least a little bad faith.
She seems to count on her audience to not listen to her conversation partner and also not to listen to her either while she mindlessly rattles off the popular leftist noises at incredible length.
By God, you are a saint for putting up with this.
Socialist with no ideas or systems or desires for what replaces the current system tells the socdem reading from studied that he's a magical thinker.
Quality content.
I am so sorry you had this talk. Every time I have listened to someone talk to Demon Mama I just hurt for the other person/people.
Why ask for a 3rd person pronoun preference when you engage in a 2nd person conversation? Every pronoun used is "you" in that setting, so it seems performative virtue signaling...
Thanks for the time stamps! A highly useful tool for following the argument.
There is a reason nobody wants to interact with Demonmoma, she pivots, rude, never has the answer but always wants to tell you yours is wrong, wants to give 5 points but not even let you barely answer one, she is a bad faith actor 100%
Nice to see Econoboi attending the infamous DemonMama lectures
1:00:20 the irony of this statement is baffling
I normally try to avoid personal attacks, but Demonmama is SO uncharitable and spiteful, also this is shallow but the faces she pulls really fucking annoy me
She can't honestly be saying that anti-gay sentiment comes primarily from capital trying to control individual lives? these anti-gsy laws are primarily from Abrahamic religions posing controls on people's personal/sexual lives. that was under all kinds of pre-capitalist forms of production. I'd argue capitalism's perpensity to change social mores to maximize profits by opening markets is in large part responsible for a lot of positive social change. Example, Jackie Robinson and other black players made a new Market because they made blacks come to games more so they started normalizing blacks in baseball and sports. That's capital