like Wishbone for adults- throwback to when I got to feel like a superior species in elementary school for knowing the plots of 50 classics I never read.
Am I the only one who doesn't like most fairytale retellings in general? Fairytales can get away with nonsense. They aren't meant to be realistic. Children don't care. And sometimes the whole point was to be some moralistic lesson. But a lot of them just don't work when you treat the set up seriously.
Yeah I also don't understand the obsession with them. Trying to adapt them to modern sensibilities is a nice thought experiment, I guess, but why not just write something different?
I think that if you do a retelling, it should keep that moralistic lesson and the symbolism in some significant way. Because fairytales evolved over time, being retold verbally to the next generation, and so on. All while keeping some sense of structure from the "original." It seems like people are more interested in using the vibes?
01:08:38 - 01:09:00 --> THIS was the most chilling scene for me. I don't necessarily disagree that the twist doesn't really work very well in terms of magic/lore/worldbuilding and even characterization, but I still loved it so much! The creep factor alone of recontextualizing and substituting the imagery of the girls' drunken joy in bright exotic halls in the first half of the book to the imagery of them being made to twirl and leap and bend in sleep like little dolls being carelessly played with by a malevolent force of nature in the utter quiet and darkness of night ... chef's kiss, no notes, 10/10!! It feels so violating without ever making that idea explicit.
55:11 - 55:32 --> That's what I thought too. Like it's meant to be a moment where the incongruence between what she's been telling us (and herself) about who he is and who he actually is bubbles to the surface. A moment of reality violently asserting itself and shredding away her coping narrative about an abusive-ish parent. Which would have worked if the father was better characterized AND we got to experience that incongruence from earlier on. Like, for instance, having more direct interactions between him and the girls and being made to feel uneasy/suspicious by the way Anna Lee frames them vs. how we as readers experience them. Just in little ways that would set up the idea that she's air-brushing him in her mind. Which would work really well with what the author does with both of their characters later on. But it would also serve to integrate this aspect of the father's characterization and his grief, instead of it feeling like it came out of nowhere. The girls cope by being numb and desperate to fixate on any sliver of joy while he copes by having a tight lid on it and focusing on his responsibilities. Until he can't. He has lost four of his children so far and he's very likely to lose more ... that is genuinely hell on earth for a parent. Whether we take the "he's always had these issues (which is definitely what the book is going for) that are now being exacerbated by grief" route or the "it's that grief manifesting in its ugliest form in the only times he's not in control of himself enough to keep it compartmentalized" route, there was a chance for this to be more nuanced and impactful than what we got.
I kind of want to have you guys as my story development editors. You guys have terrific ideas on how to improve stories, I want you all on my team.... to rip my books apart and put them back.
So happy to have found this podcast.... I really respect your taste and the way you are able to articulate the reason behind it 👩🍳 💋 You are helping inspiring authors with such palletes
I’m a little late, but had to mention: I think the Cassius character might be based on another version of the story where a prince goes on a quest to break the curse that an evil wizard puts on the 12 sisters to keep them captive. I only know this because it was made into a ballet I studied in college.
I have only listened to the first 13 minutes or so of the video so far, so I'm not sure if it gets mentioned later or not, but when you said Anna-Lee and castle by the sea I instantly thought "Like Annabelle Lee? By Edgar Allan Poe?" And then later when you were listing the names of the sisters I was like "Yep. Of course it's Poe."
12DP is my favorite fairytale, but I think my biggest issue with this book was that it didn't have enough dancing in it. Alternatively, I really loved that a majority of the sisters had names in reference to Edgar Allan Poe. I think it added to the atmosphere.
I just came to comment on the Spellcoats mention. For context, I recommended that book in the comment section of the howls moving castle video. I'm veery enthusiastic about Diana Wynn Jones, would love more videos on her work.😊
Your ideas for rewrites are always so good! If she ended up being the killer (and if the dancing part would have been reduced) this would have made a great horror book.
Are... are the sisters all Poe references? Annabelle Lee (in her sepulcher by the sea), Lenore (the angels named), pretty sure Eulalie is in another poem,
I actually really had fun with this book (tho I hated the second book of the series lol). But I agree, the author is EXCELLENT at writing unsettling scenes. She shone in her next book Small Favors! You guys should definitely read that!
My niece and I read this for a book club and I remember saying to her “it was like all happy and dancing, kissing Cassius and then it took a hard left with fish chunks and Fisher chunks.”
To be fair, this book is a few years old, so it wasn't such a tired trope back then. But I agree, when I see new books with this type of title, I roll my eyes lol.
Youguyse areright, her having tofillin but being entirely unprepared and have to learn be the mom figure.and toconnect as that is a good narrative way to flesh out sisters. And how her sister who did that before is talking a bit condescending while struggling with her new role. oh the islandrsvguely having beliefs and custom related to gods. like if the region,it could come upwih the belief in the curse thing they keepofferings and weird stories. And there could be they see supernatural. you would think gods would fit with vague supernatural urban and seeing dead .And oraclscould exist?!
Ah yes, [Noun] of [Noun] and [Noun], my favorite YA fantasy book.
"Hunger of Twilight and Uglies"
As others like to call it, the Bowl of Mac and Cheese titles
@@jans.g6033 I’d love if these books were just about Mac and cheese, honestly. But maybe I’m just hungry
I think I like better when you guys describe books than when I read them.
Same
like Wishbone for adults-
throwback to when I got to feel like a superior species in elementary school for knowing the plots of 50 classics I never read.
Same
This channel makes driving to work an absolute delight 🔥
I’ll never need to read again
Am I the only one who doesn't like most fairytale retellings in general? Fairytales can get away with nonsense. They aren't meant to be realistic. Children don't care. And sometimes the whole point was to be some moralistic lesson. But a lot of them just don't work when you treat the set up seriously.
Yeah I also don't understand the obsession with them. Trying to adapt them to modern sensibilities is a nice thought experiment, I guess, but why not just write something different?
I think that if you do a retelling, it should keep that moralistic lesson and the symbolism in some significant way. Because fairytales evolved over time, being retold verbally to the next generation, and so on. All while keeping some sense of structure from the "original."
It seems like people are more interested in using the vibes?
i dont like fairy tale retellings, but i did enjoy the lunar chronicals (mostly because it wasn't overdone)
sometimes (read: all the time) I hear UTT's ideas for altering these books and will forever be sad that I won't be able to read that book
01:08:38 - 01:09:00 --> THIS was the most chilling scene for me. I don't necessarily disagree that the twist doesn't really work very well in terms of magic/lore/worldbuilding and even characterization, but I still loved it so much! The creep factor alone of recontextualizing and substituting the imagery of the girls' drunken joy in bright exotic halls in the first half of the book to the imagery of them being made to twirl and leap and bend in sleep like little dolls being carelessly played with by a malevolent force of nature in the utter quiet and darkness of night ... chef's kiss, no notes, 10/10!! It feels so violating without ever making that idea explicit.
Will naming EDM as a drug is the funniest thing ever 😭
55:11 - 55:32 --> That's what I thought too. Like it's meant to be a moment where the incongruence between what she's been telling us (and herself) about who he is and who he actually is bubbles to the surface. A moment of reality violently asserting itself and shredding away her coping narrative about an abusive-ish parent. Which would have worked if the father was better characterized AND we got to experience that incongruence from earlier on. Like, for instance, having more direct interactions between him and the girls and being made to feel uneasy/suspicious by the way Anna Lee frames them vs. how we as readers experience them. Just in little ways that would set up the idea that she's air-brushing him in her mind. Which would work really well with what the author does with both of their characters later on.
But it would also serve to integrate this aspect of the father's characterization and his grief, instead of it feeling like it came out of nowhere. The girls cope by being numb and desperate to fixate on any sliver of joy while he copes by having a tight lid on it and focusing on his responsibilities. Until he can't. He has lost four of his children so far and he's very likely to lose more ... that is genuinely hell on earth for a parent. Whether we take the "he's always had these issues (which is definitely what the book is going for) that are now being exacerbated by grief" route or the "it's that grief manifesting in its ugliest form in the only times he's not in control of himself enough to keep it compartmentalized" route, there was a chance for this to be more nuanced and impactful than what we got.
I kind of want to have you guys as my story development editors. You guys have terrific ideas on how to improve stories, I want you all on my team.... to rip my books apart and put them back.
Well, if ever interested, William and I both do editing and developmental work -Kt
Sweet! I will ring you up in the future. 😊👍🏻
I read somewhere that this was supposed to be a retelling of E. A. Poe's poem of Annabelle Lee but it didn't work out, so she reworked it.
So happy to have found this podcast.... I really respect your taste and the way you are able to articulate the reason behind it 👩🍳 💋
You are helping inspiring authors with such palletes
Don't forget the Bennett sisters in P&P, also good characterisation and inter-sibling relationships :)
I’m a little late, but had to mention: I think the Cassius character might be based on another version of the story where a prince goes on a quest to break the curse that an evil wizard puts on the 12 sisters to keep them captive. I only know this because it was made into a ballet I studied in college.
I have only listened to the first 13 minutes or so of the video so far, so I'm not sure if it gets mentioned later or not, but when you said Anna-Lee and castle by the sea I instantly thought "Like Annabelle Lee? By Edgar Allan Poe?" And then later when you were listing the names of the sisters I was like "Yep. Of course it's Poe."
12DP is my favorite fairytale, but I think my biggest issue with this book was that it didn't have enough dancing in it. Alternatively, I really loved that a majority of the sisters had names in reference to Edgar Allan Poe. I think it added to the atmosphere.
A better version of this is ‘Wildwood Dancing’ by Juliet Marillier. An absolutely captivating and beautiful read/retelling of the dancing princesses
Entwine by Heather Dixon is also a good 12 Dancing Princess’s novel
I just came to comment on the Spellcoats mention. For context, I recommended that book in the comment section of the howls moving castle video. I'm veery enthusiastic about Diana Wynn Jones, would love more videos on her work.😊
Yeah, this book isn’t all that great, but the author does a ton times better with her second book, Small Favors.
I did NOT like this book at all, but I LOVED Small Favors, from the same author. That book is gorgeous...
Small Favors is one of my favorite books ever
I've seen 3 people in this coment section say this, def gonna read it!
Your ideas for rewrites are always so good! If she ended up being the killer (and if the dancing part would have been reduced) this would have made a great horror book.
Are... are the sisters all Poe references?
Annabelle Lee (in her sepulcher by the sea), Lenore (the angels named), pretty sure Eulalie is in another poem,
I actually really had fun with this book (tho I hated the second book of the series lol). But I agree, the author is EXCELLENT at writing unsettling scenes. She shone in her next book Small Favors! You guys should definitely read that!
This is exactly how I felt when I read this years ago
My niece and I read this for a book club and I remember saying to her “it was like all happy and dancing, kissing Cassius and then it took a hard left with fish chunks and Fisher chunks.”
Could anyone point me to the therapist Will mentions at around 34:15? I'd love to check his videos out
His name is Kirk Honda, I think. You can find him on youtube if you search for 'psychology in seattle'.
--Will
@@unresolvedtextualtension Wonderful! Thank you so much!
He’s amazing, his podcasts have changed my life -Katie
I just am only a little sick of titles like this. They truly all blur together at this point lol.
To be fair, this book is a few years old, so it wasn't such a tired trope back then. But I agree, when I see new books with this type of title, I roll my eyes lol.
could you do a rewrite of this book?
Youguyse areright, her having tofillin but being entirely unprepared and have to learn be the mom figure.and toconnect as that is a good narrative way to flesh out sisters. And how her sister who did that before is talking a bit condescending while struggling with her new role.
oh the islandrsvguely having beliefs and custom related to gods. like if the region,it could come upwih the belief in the curse thing they keepofferings and weird stories.
And there could be they see supernatural. you would think gods would fit with vague supernatural urban and seeing dead .And oraclscould exist?!
personally i am not a huge fan of "woman crazy" twists
The house of salt and sorrow was absolutely awful, was shocked you guys read it