One correction: when I said that God is uncreated, I am referring to LDS doctrine that teaches God was not always God. I do recognize that eternal regression is in some LDS teaching. The fathers seem to explicitly imply that God was always God.
We believe that the Great Apostasy started shortly after the apostles died, which means that the Church Fathers would represent a form of religious authority that we essentially reject. So, if anything, the notion that our teachings are out of line with theirs would only serve as an indication to us that we are actually accepting the true revelation given by God to his appointed prophets, rather than following Church Fathers who ultimately lacked priesthood keys/authority to receive revelation from God on behalf of the Church. This is really a non-argument against Latter-day Saints because we don't pretend to adhere to the Church Fathers anyway.
"One Church father made a distinction between Athens and Jerusalem, therefore we can just ignore the fact that their teachings are clearly meant to reconcile Biblical teachings with Platonist Theistic thought." If God is immaterial, just a spirit, doesn't have a body, etc. then how in the world could Jesus be God? Doesn't Jesus have a body? And if not, then what way the point of the Resurrection?
@@Anti-FragileSaintsFrom what the LDS claim about the Great Apostasy, it would seem that the apostles themselves are to blame for this mess. Wouldn't apostolic succession have prevented the GA? After all, they replaced Judas. How hard would it have been to replace James and maintain the necessary 12 Apostles? James, the brother of Jesus, played an important role but we have nothing indicating that he was appointed to restore the number back to 12. Likewise, Paul played a huge part in early Christianity but never was he nominated to maintain the number 12. If they understood that they needed to replace Judas, why didn't they continue?
Not all of us accept linear regression. Jesus became a man and was God before he was a man. It's a possibility God the Father did the same thing and has always been God. Blake ostler talks about this and after reading the sermon in the grove and the King Follet discourse again I think he is right.
I've heard Mormons claim that the Church began to have its great apostacy before the start of the 2nd century. I dont understand how they actually take this seriously
One of my favorite evidences of The Church of Jesus Christ’s claims to apostasy is Igantius’s letter to the Trallians. In chapter 6, Ignatius is correcting false doctrine that is being taught, and explicitly corrects those who teach that the trinity are one being, which is not Catholic Doctrine. “They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.” Ignatius, of course, learned from the apostles, and wrote before the writers you quote here.
Christianity does not teach there is one person in the trinity that would be Unitarianism Also in chapter 6 of the same letter you quote: “For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ.”
The idea that all Latter-day Saint teachings need to perfectly align with those of the early Christian Church doesn’t really reflect how we see things. Religious beliefs evolve over time as society changes-that’s true not just for us but for any other religions as well. We call this process “Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.” So, it’s not an issue for us if the restored Church today receives deeper or more advanced revelations compared to what was taught in the early Church. What’s really central to the Restoration is the claim that the priesthood authority we have is the same as what the Twelve Apostles had. It’s not about whether the teachings are exactly the same word for word. For us, the most important thing is having the priesthood authority to receive the revelations God intends for each era As for the idea that God wasn’t always God but was once a man-that does come up in sermons from Joseph Smith and other leaders. But it hasn’t been formalized as official doctrine or heavily emphasized in our teachings. I’ve studied a fair bit of critical biblical scholarship and history, so I understand where your criticisms are coming from. But honestly, I don’t think those criticisms undermine the teachings of the church. I think it comes down to us having different paradigms on revelation and religious truth.
Ya these quotes from “Church Fathers” are from after what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would be after the Apostasy. Typical I would say anything after the first century would be after the Church Christ Established fell away. What is covered in the King James Bible is scripture and does cover the church Christ established.
The KJV relies on much later manuscripts then present versions, also from your apostle Bruce R. McConkie, “In the Old World the great apostasy was complete sometime during the second century A.D.”
Then you’re making Jesus a liar for he promise dot protect the church and that not even the gates of hell won’t prevail against it. The holy fathers had apostolic succession and they gave you the bible , Mormon did neither of these and no English bible is preserved or more reliable than the eastern ones
Slight correction, official LDS doctrine does not positively affirm that God the Father is a created being. The idea of eternal regression (IE that there is an unbroken chain of Gods back into eternity) is not official doctrine and is not backed by LDS scripture (although some members do unfortunately believe it). The Father is not subordinate to another god. There are many scriptures that portray God the Father as the highest of all other beings in the universe (see D&C 121:32).
@ I appreciate the clarification. Even then, LDS doctrine doesn’t explicitly teach that the father “became God” at some point in His existence. This idea comes from a flawed understanding of Joseph Smith’s “King Follett” sermon. In one manuscript of the sermon, Smith apparently stated that “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” On its own, this phrase does seem to imply that God was not always God. However, there are a few things to consider: 1- there are multiple manuscripts of the sermon that exist, and all of them vary. They do not all contain this quote. It is possible that the scribe did not include the full quote or left out important context. 2- The sermon was given at a funeral as consolation to people who had lost a loved one. In the context of the rest of the sermon, it appears that Smith was referring specifically to the physical nature of God. Other parts of the sermon indicate that God was always supremely divine in a spiritual sense. 3- LDS doctrine states that God was once a man like us. All Christians would agree that Jesus Christ’s temporary mortality in no way diminished His divinity. LDS do not believe that God the Father was a sinful being during His time as a mortal man. The Father was a man in the same way as the Son- that is, mortal, but sinless and divine 4- Canonical LDS scripture affirms the eternal Godhood of the Father. Moroni 8:18 states, “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” All this said, there are still many members of the LDS church that believe that God was not always God. I just bring these things up to show that it is in no way an officially recognized stance of the LDS church as a whole.
@ I don’t see this being brought up in LDS scholarship, and in fact the LDS church is typically pretty vague past the fact that God was once a man. I can’t add the quote on here but look at this article scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=6&article=1046&context=mi&type=additional#:~:text=Not%20much%20has%20been%20revealed,and%20exaltation.” It doesn’t seem like this is the mainstream view.
@tylerrockwood1994 Also DC 121:32 dosent seem to really imply an infinite regression seeing as “council” seems to refer to a finite number. (Not that infinite regression doesn’t already have its philosophical problems)
@@AnsweringLDS I agree that eternal regression comes with many philosophical flaws. The Church hasn’t spoken much on God’s past as it isn’t the focus of the gospel. I do wish there were more official clarifications made by leaders, but I still believe that the scriptures speak for themselves. God was always God according to both mainstream Christian and LDS scripture. Eternal regression is just a stipulation based on unofficial and likely inaccurate statements attributed to past leaders of the church.
I think the video is fairly poorly done, it represents Deut 6:4 as a proof text, misunderstands lds epistemology, selectively quotes the fathers, ignores all contrary evidence and doesn’t establish a baseline for what LDS theology actually is, but if you’re confident in it let’s have a live conversation about these topics, and I’m happy to let you defend these propositions with someone that actually holds the LDS faith.
@ they don’t come from our sources exegetically, but if you think I’m wrong about my own theology in a church that I grew up in and which I’ve studied intensely for more than a decade I’m happy to have that conversation. Feel free to bring your sources, and I’ll bring mine, but you’re obviously wrong about the Greek philosophy. just let me know when and I’ll be happy to show how🤷♂️
As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints I respect your opinion but you got us all wrong. God's church started with Adam and continued to be brought back in each dispensation whenever the people rejected his gospel. After Christ & his apostles were killed the church fell into an apostasy. During this apostasy many plain truths from the bible were removed or changed. Doctrine and ordinances were debated in the nicean creeds to conform to worldly philosophies. Some of these removed doctrines included the nature of God, the atonement, God's plan for his children and more. When Joseph Smith saw God the Father & His Son Jesus Christ he asked them which church he should join. He was told not to join any of these churches. God then restored his church like in ancient times. Many of the doctrines were restored through the Book of Mormon and other scriptures. God continues to talk to his children through modern day prophets like he did anciently. Hope that clarifies things. May God bless you and this channel
@AnsweringLDS yes we believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it it translated correctly. We also believe the Book of mormon, D&C(Doctrine & Covenants), the pearl of great price and the words of modern day prophets to be the word of God.
@AnsweringLDS We have a great love and reverence for the bible. It contains the words of the prophets, Christ & his apostles. That being said we do not believe in sola Scriptura or that the bible is the final word or authority of God. Instead we believe in an open scriptural canon. We believe God spoke anciently to the peoples of the old & new world. He also continues to speak to us again through modern prophets. This shows that God is not silent & that his works are not dead. He continues to lead his people as he always has. When combining the words of the bible, the book of Mormon and modern day prophets they all work together to tesify of God's plan for his children, that Jesus is the Christ, and all other truths needed for our salvation.
@ So would it be safe to say that the BOM overrides scripture? At that point you can’t use the Bible to prove the LDS church since you selectively choose what goes for and against
One correction: when I said that God is uncreated, I am referring to LDS doctrine that teaches God was not always God. I do recognize that eternal regression is in some LDS teaching. The fathers seem to explicitly imply that God was always God.
We believe that the Great Apostasy started shortly after the apostles died, which means that the Church Fathers would represent a form of religious authority that we essentially reject. So, if anything, the notion that our teachings are out of line with theirs would only serve as an indication to us that we are actually accepting the true revelation given by God to his appointed prophets, rather than following Church Fathers who ultimately lacked priesthood keys/authority to receive revelation from God on behalf of the Church. This is really a non-argument against Latter-day Saints because we don't pretend to adhere to the Church Fathers anyway.
"One Church father made a distinction between Athens and Jerusalem, therefore we can just ignore the fact that their teachings are clearly meant to reconcile Biblical teachings with Platonist Theistic thought." If God is immaterial, just a spirit, doesn't have a body, etc. then how in the world could Jesus be God? Doesn't Jesus have a body? And if not, then what way the point of the Resurrection?
@@Anti-FragileSaintsFrom what the LDS claim about the Great Apostasy, it would seem that the apostles themselves are to blame for this mess. Wouldn't apostolic succession have prevented the GA? After all, they replaced Judas. How hard would it have been to replace James and maintain the necessary 12 Apostles? James, the brother of Jesus, played an important role but we have nothing indicating that he was appointed to restore the number back to 12. Likewise, Paul played a huge part in early Christianity but never was he nominated to maintain the number 12. If they understood that they needed to replace Judas, why didn't they continue?
Not all of us accept linear regression. Jesus became a man and was God before he was a man. It's a possibility God the Father did the same thing and has always been God. Blake ostler talks about this and after reading the sermon in the grove and the King Follet discourse again I think he is right.
Nevermind, I see someone else already addressed this aspect.
I've heard Mormons claim that the Church began to have its great apostacy before the start of the 2nd century.
I dont understand how they actually take this seriously
Great video! Good job! Just subscribed. Very excited to see what you continue to do. God bless you brother.
Based!!! I've seen your username in superchats on youtube occasionally, glad to see you're posting videos!
Based. Proclaim the true gospel of the good lord Jesus Christ. ❤
One of my favorite evidences of The Church of Jesus Christ’s claims to apostasy is Igantius’s letter to the Trallians. In chapter 6, Ignatius is correcting false doctrine that is being taught, and explicitly corrects those who teach that the trinity are one being, which is not Catholic Doctrine. “They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power.” Ignatius, of course, learned from the apostles, and wrote before the writers you quote here.
Christianity does not teach there is one person in the trinity that would be Unitarianism
Also in chapter 6 of the same letter you quote: “For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ.”
@ what are you trying to say with that quote?
🙌✝️❤️ Awesome. Thank you!!
The idea that all Latter-day Saint teachings need to perfectly align with those of the early Christian Church doesn’t really reflect how we see things. Religious beliefs evolve over time as society changes-that’s true not just for us but for any other religions as well. We call this process “Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.” So, it’s not an issue for us if the restored Church today receives deeper or more advanced revelations compared to what was taught in the early Church.
What’s really central to the Restoration is the claim that the priesthood authority we have is the same as what the Twelve Apostles had. It’s not about whether the teachings are exactly the same word for word. For us, the most important thing is having the priesthood authority to receive the revelations God intends for each era
As for the idea that God wasn’t always God but was once a man-that does come up in sermons from Joseph Smith and other leaders. But it hasn’t been formalized as official doctrine or heavily emphasized in our teachings.
I’ve studied a fair bit of critical biblical scholarship and history, so I understand where your criticisms are coming from. But honestly, I don’t think those criticisms undermine the teachings of the church. I think it comes down to us having different paradigms on revelation and religious truth.
Great! Thank you!
Ya these quotes from “Church Fathers” are from after what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints would be after the Apostasy. Typical I would say anything after the first century would be after the Church Christ Established fell away. What is covered in the King James Bible is scripture and does cover the church Christ established.
The KJV relies on much later manuscripts then present versions, also from your apostle Bruce R. McConkie, “In the Old World the great apostasy was complete sometime during the second century A.D.”
Then you’re making Jesus a liar for he promise dot protect the church and that not even the gates of hell won’t prevail against it. The holy fathers had apostolic succession and they gave you the bible , Mormon did neither of these and no English bible is preserved or more reliable than the eastern ones
Always include saying to wear a Miraculous Mary from mother Mary given same year 1830
Slight correction, official LDS doctrine does not positively affirm that God the Father is a created being. The idea of eternal regression (IE that there is an unbroken chain of Gods back into eternity) is not official doctrine and is not backed by LDS scripture (although some members do unfortunately believe it). The Father is not subordinate to another god. There are many scriptures that portray God the Father as the highest of all other beings in the universe (see D&C 121:32).
I would like to clarify that I meant in the sense of God becoming God. Thanks for the catch
@ I appreciate the clarification. Even then, LDS doctrine doesn’t explicitly teach that the father “became God” at some point in His existence. This idea comes from a flawed understanding of Joseph Smith’s “King Follett” sermon. In one manuscript of the sermon, Smith apparently stated that “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.”
On its own, this phrase does seem to imply that God was not always God. However, there are a few things to consider:
1- there are multiple manuscripts of the sermon that exist, and all of them vary. They do not all contain this quote. It is possible that the scribe did not include the full quote or left out important context.
2- The sermon was given at a funeral as consolation to people who had lost a loved one. In the context of the rest of the sermon, it appears that Smith was referring specifically to the physical nature of God. Other parts of the sermon indicate that God was always supremely divine in a spiritual sense.
3- LDS doctrine states that God was once a man like us. All Christians would agree that Jesus Christ’s temporary mortality in no way diminished His divinity. LDS do not believe that God the Father was a sinful being during His time as a mortal man. The Father was a man in the same way as the Son- that is, mortal, but sinless and divine
4- Canonical LDS scripture affirms the eternal Godhood of the Father. Moroni 8:18 states, “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity”
All this said, there are still many members of the LDS church that believe that God was not always God. I just bring these things up to show that it is in no way an officially recognized stance of the LDS church as a whole.
@ I don’t see this being brought up in LDS scholarship, and in fact the LDS church is typically pretty vague past the fact that God was once a man. I can’t add the quote on here but look at this article scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=6&article=1046&context=mi&type=additional#:~:text=Not%20much%20has%20been%20revealed,and%20exaltation.” It doesn’t seem like this is the mainstream view.
@tylerrockwood1994 Also DC 121:32 dosent seem to really imply an infinite regression seeing as “council” seems to refer to a finite number. (Not that infinite regression doesn’t already have its philosophical problems)
@@AnsweringLDS I agree that eternal regression comes with many philosophical flaws. The Church hasn’t spoken much on God’s past as it isn’t the focus of the gospel. I do wish there were more official clarifications made by leaders, but I still believe that the scriptures speak for themselves. God was always God according to both mainstream Christian and LDS scripture. Eternal regression is just a stipulation based on unofficial and likely inaccurate statements attributed to past leaders of the church.
I think the video is fairly poorly done, it represents Deut 6:4 as a proof text, misunderstands lds epistemology, selectively quotes the fathers, ignores all contrary evidence and doesn’t establish a baseline for what LDS theology actually is, but if you’re confident in it let’s have a live conversation about these topics, and I’m happy to let you defend these propositions with someone that actually holds the LDS faith.
Mormons are wicked heretics
I’m getting this from your sources so seems like an issue on your part🤷♂️
@ they don’t come from our sources exegetically, but if you think I’m wrong about my own theology in a church that I grew up in and which I’ve studied intensely for more than a decade I’m happy to have that conversation. Feel free to bring your sources, and I’ll bring mine, but you’re obviously wrong about the Greek philosophy. just let me know when and I’ll be happy to show how🤷♂️
@porterlarsen8490 what specifically did I misrepresent?
@@porterlarsen8490 also what about Greek philosophy? My point was that early fathers of the church were against it
We'll find ypu those early Mormons aa soon as you find us the mention of Trinity in the Bible.
Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, John 14:16,26 only can be understood consistently from a trinitarian perspective
Word-concept fallacy
W video bro
Finally got it up
As a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints I respect your opinion but you got us all wrong. God's church started with Adam and continued to be brought back in each dispensation whenever the people rejected his gospel.
After Christ & his apostles were killed the church fell into an apostasy. During this apostasy many plain truths from the bible were removed or changed. Doctrine and ordinances were debated in the nicean creeds to conform to worldly philosophies. Some of these removed doctrines included the nature of God, the atonement, God's plan for his children and more.
When Joseph Smith saw God the Father & His Son Jesus Christ he asked them which church he should join. He was told not to join any of these churches. God then restored his church like in ancient times. Many of the doctrines were restored through the Book of Mormon and other scriptures. God continues to talk to his children through modern day prophets like he did anciently. Hope that clarifies things. May God bless you and this channel
Is the Bible not considered scripture within LDS teachings?
@AnsweringLDS yes we believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it it translated correctly. We also believe the Book of mormon, D&C(Doctrine & Covenants), the pearl of great price and the words of modern day prophets to be the word of God.
@@brandonporter2348 but if it’s corrupted why use it?
@AnsweringLDS We have a great love and reverence for the bible. It contains the words of the prophets, Christ & his apostles. That being said we do not believe in sola Scriptura or that the bible is the final word or authority of God.
Instead we believe in an open scriptural canon. We believe God spoke anciently to the peoples of the old & new world.
He also continues to speak to us again through modern prophets. This shows that God is not silent & that his works are not dead. He continues to lead his people as he always has.
When combining the words of the bible, the book of Mormon and modern day prophets they all work together to tesify of God's plan for his children, that Jesus is the Christ, and all other truths needed for our salvation.
@ So would it be safe to say that the BOM overrides scripture? At that point you can’t use the Bible to prove the LDS church since you selectively choose what goes for and against