@@uzi6722 Kuss was never better then Roglic/Jonas at Vuelta but media helped him. And it was Roglic race (he prepared for it while Kuss and Jonas were on TFD) so he can be pissed off by team decisions. On the other hand we all loved when Kuss won as underdog.
@@nazgulzg it was his Vuelta until Vingegaard and also Kuss came uninvited to the party. Headscratcher. Then Kuss, while Remco still in Red, in the breakaway, then Remco loses half an hour, rest of the competition is no threat or whatsoever, media comes in and Jumbo decided to give in to media pressure and have an American fairytale winner. Never happened before, will never happen again. Kuss won't win another gc to my feel, it's a whole different ballgame starting as favourite and team leader. Sure, he has the climbing legs and time trial skills to go a long way, but if he is leader, he needs..a Kuss.
I believe Kuss was going to go to the Vuelta as a super domestic. The way stage 6 (I think) played out, he ended up in the leaders jersey soon after. Like Chris notes many, many times, you don't attack your teammate in the leader's jersey. If the rider you are marking pulls you to the jersey, that is a different situation. In this case, other teams didn't have the strength to attack Kuss/ Jonas/ Roglič so there wasn't a reason for either Jonas or Roglič to attack. Just my 2 cents.
I want Roglic to win the TDF so badly! It’s hilarious to consider him an underdog, but I so desperately want to see him get redemption after the string of bad luck he’s had from 2020-2022. He looked fantastic this season - always raced intelligently, and managed to keep out of trouble. I’m hopeful he’ll carry that form and that confidence into the TDF next year and give the others a run for their money!
He was barely able to win against 37 year old G, couldn’t pull away of Jonas once in the Vuelta, no disrespect but that really doesn’t make you a favourite for the upcoming Tour.
me tooo... so much... it would have a special meanning - not only the win itself he wants to achieve, but to take it from tjv, who didnt believe in him... I wish him sooooo much to win tdf 2024.
@@NowayfrrrrrrrAgreed. He should have been able to dominate Thomas to a much larger extent. I simply can't see him beating Jonas and Tadej, providing there is no accidents.
My guess is that Rogic decided it was time for a change in order to be a contender for the TDF one more time.....and he made the right choice....lots of support at the Bora team...would love to see him going at it against Vingegaard!!!
Too old, too late, he won't be able to match up with Jonas and Pogi(if he decide to concentrate on winning tdf again) in the super steep mountains of tdf! that's a fact
And and and let's not forget how hard Toglic worked for Jonas to win his first TDF in 2022 on stage 11...after he dislocated his shoulder in the bale crash earlier in the race.
@@Nowayfrrrrrrr Primož didnt attacked Kuss - it was Jonas who did not primož. primož went for the win on Angliru, he wasnt a danger to sepp 1st. jonas was - and Jonas never stayed with kuss - never... first he solo atacked both Kuss and Primož, and than he went with primož, where he eas to stay with Sepp and help him, but he didnt. Primož was not a danger on sepp's 1st place when he attacked on Angliru.
@@barbarap9452 Jonas didn’t stay with Kuss because then Primoz would’ve overtaken him in the GC. How you’re gonna victim blame selfish Roglic when he was the one who attacked his team mate ffs.
@@Nowayfrrrrrrr I disagree. Yes, Primoz was wrong to go for the stage win in a way that put Sepp at risk of losing GC to Jonas by dragging Jonas to the finish. And Primoz did not need to analyze all that, Primoz sand the team director should have avoided any problem by Primoz just sticking with Sepp especially after Sepp dropped all but one of the other contenders. But Jonas could and should have thwarted any trouble caused by Primoz by showing Jonas's strength and class and insisting on pulling or working with Sepp to keep Primoz in range (or even catch Primoz} which keeping Primoz in range would have been no problem given how strong Sepp was looking that day, seeing how Sepp dropped other contenders, chasing Primoz and Jonas down. Instead Jonas showed his strength and LACK of class by easily sitting on Primoz's wheel to the finish and leaving Sepp hanging back there.
People like to look for drama, but there really isn't much drama. Ofcourse it's a shame that a bannerman for the team went out look for another team to get his freedom back, but one of his teammates simply surpassed him. Jumbo certainly didn't want Roglic to go, but they could never give him a full team for the TdF which is what Roglic wanted. It's only fair for the both of them to agree on parting ways. It's a bloody shame it went like this, but it was impossible to keep Vingegaard and Roglic in the same team by now. I wish Roglic all the best.
I think the. Vieira suits Sepp the best. I think he will be the Visma leader at the Vuelta. It seems Sepp has changed his mind about being a leader from what I heard. I think the big 4 will go all out at TDF. Which leaves the Vuelta as Sepp as the most likely favorite because it’s usually very mountainous which I agree suits him best. I honestly think he can go back to back because probably he will be up against the guys he was by far better than at this years Vuelta i.e. Ayuso, Almedia, Vlasov, etc.
That's the point. That's how Jumbo beat Pogacar at the Tour over the last two seasons. Vingegaard and management don'tGAF whether or not Kuss wins anything ever again.
Roglic was unbeaten in 2023 stage races going into the Vuelta. When the Jumbo-Visma directors decided that Sepp Kuss was to win over Primoz leaving him to miss out on going through 2023 stage races unbeaten, he knew it was time to go elsewhere.
He was behind Jonas in the GC, couldn’t pull away from him but was the best? Sure buddy🤣 Roglic will get obliterated the next Tour and he won’t even be top 3.
It was Michael Hessman that pushed Roglic out of the team. His doping case activated a clause in the sponsor contract that allowed Jumbo to end the sponsorship at the end of this year rather than next year. Therefore TJV was in desperate need of money for next year and had to find an emergency solution. So either they needed to merge and get Soudal as the sponsor or they had to sell Roglic and get a temporary sponsor, which they got with Lease A Bike.
This is bullshit. Jumbo allready decided to quit sponsorship of the team before the doping case of Hessman. Jumbo is a dutch supermarket which also has a few locations in Belgium. Their CEO was replaced recently and for Jumbo there really wasn't any reason to continue a heavy investment into a cycling team anymore. Actually they decided to stop a lot of sponsoring of dutch sportsman. Also Verstappen for example. So stop posting bullshit. thank you.
Roglic is too talented to play second fiddle. I thought he had a damned good chance to podium the Tour after that last week of the Giro and was surprised to not see him at the TDF. I chalked it up to team politics, and now Visma has another credible GC team gunnin for them.
Jonas has been better than Sepp, Primos and Tadej in the high mountains. Jumbo Visma as a team has to secure their best climber for the tour. Now that Kuss also acts on the highest level, he can function as second leader. Primos wants to ride the tour without have to worry about competition from teammates. There was no other outcome, It's a win for all, including the fans.
I read an interview with Sepp this weekend and he said that he was looking forward to going to the ‘24 Vuelta as the defending champion and possible co- leader (if the course is suitable for him) with Jonas in the Tour. There was no mention of the going to the Giro. While things can change in the next six months I am sticking to what I posted last week and we will see Sepp and Jumbo Lease focusing on the week long races and then a Tour - Vuelta double. Don’t see Sepp doing all three GTs again next year. Personally I would rather have 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta over 2 Vueltas. Anyway, love your channel Chris! 👍
Right on Chris regarding Roglic. Yes exciting season. And Sep Kuss is very light. Meaning he will do less work that the others and be fresher at end of each tour. And remember he did three tours and still won. Wow
Chris, thanks for amping up your mic system with the Rode set up. Your audio is much better. It would be thrilling to see Sepp Kuss compete for the win in the 2024 Giro. Do you guys think he can do another 3 grand tours in the same year again, and be competitive to defend in the Vuelta, after pulling for Jonas in the mountains of the Tour, after racing for the win in the Giro? Let's hope so.
The more serious question for Sepp is whether he is riding all three Grand Tours again. Does Jonas need Sepp as a super domestique to win the Tour De France again? This poses another question who is Roglič super domestique for the Tour at Bora?
Buchmann yes, but Denkt plan, Hindley go to Giro, Vlasov in supporting team? Im look this way 😀Wandahl?The young Danish, Polka dot yersey win in Guahgxi tour, 2 weeks ago, BORA strong team in 24 ,@@yuriboykkaaa1337
If you count being the team leader and another rider winning two tour de france's - yes. Ive heard him say since joing Bora its all in for le tour even though people may think it "absurd". If that is correct thats a weird mindset and suggests a possible lack of belief. Why absurd, he left because its there and its the only thing (lombardia/Worlds) left for him. Also he's a four times GT winner and Olympic TT champ... why care what "others" think. If he wins its because of issues for top two. Podium at best for this stella racer!
The Giro totally makes sense for Kuss. I'm guessing Jonas will have taken away from the last Vuelta that he can pull off a double grand tour victory. The TdF would be the priorty and see what happens at the Vuelta.
Once you get one, you want more! I just can't wait for 24. It's going to be epic! It's going to be odd watching Prizmo in a different Jersey. Great job.🤜🤛 OH, and Damm, it's snowing.
Nice one Chris! This has been on my mind since announcements of changes within teams. Ever since the 177th stage of Vuelta when Sepp jumped on Landa wheel-probably mumbling "those m.fer's"- things were changing. Loved the breakdown
Oh, I hope you'll be doing a talk in Bend next year! You have the magic combo of great legs and mind & ability to explain racing strategies to us all. I would love to time another business trip to Bend with getting to hear your talk in person! I still smile recalling seeing you lap the field once, maybe even twice!, at a Crit in downtown Portland in the late '90s!! 😂
Well it seems we now know the story. Roglic was mad at what happened on stage 16--then came stage 17. Jumbo's director stated the following: "Everything went the way we wanted again. There were three of us left and that was actually the moment when things didn't go well," Zeeman told the Met open vizier podcast, according to WielerFlits. "Sepp couldn't keep up with Primož and Jonas at one point. Then there was no more teamwork. "I should add right away that when you ride uphill on gradients of up to 20% you race with a heart rate of 200, so you can't expect those guys to think clearly." In the end, Kuss survived in the red jersey, with the next day's stage to La Cruz de Linares seeing the three riders present a united front in the face of widespread confusion and criticism. Roglič and Vingegaard shepherded Kuss up the final climb, having dispensed with the previous 'free for all' racing style. Zeeman said that the team got together in the evening after the Angliru stage, with riders free to give their opinions on what had happened. an agreement was to back Kuss was thrashed out but not unanimously. "Give your opinion and talk to each other instead of about each other. We started this in 2016 or 2017 and a strong foundation has rolled out from there, a culture. That's essentially what our team has been built on. "Cycling for us is a team sport not an individual one," he added. "That evening I put all the men together around one table. I spoke to Jonas, Sepp, and Primož beforehand and heard their views. "But then I got eight grown men together and said: 'Guys, this is what happened today. I have my thoughts on this, but I think it's much more important what you think.'" Zeeman revealed that the majority of the team - all riders except for Roglič - agreed that Kuss should be the sole leader with the team's backing all the way to Madrid. However, the Slovenian, who is set to ride for Bora-Hansgrohe next year, accepted the decision and got behind Kuss. "What do we stand for now? Who are we actually? Seven riders agreed that [Kuss winning] must be the final result," Zeeman said. "Primož had a more difficult time with this, but he agreed to it. That was also because his teammates indicated it so forcefully. In the end he said, 'Sepp has to win and you can count on me.'"
@ malencid. What a load of bx. The fallout ‘that’ evening from the public and racers on how they treated Sep was a PR disaster. They did a u turn on tactics to save their asses. Roglic was like a a spoilt kid, he did well with huge amounts of assistance from his team, then ‘forgot’ he was in a team. Don’t you get the feeling the team was a bit peed off with that ?
@@douglasalexander4348Jonas said he wanted Sepp to win while attacking him 3 times and gaining time back!😂 Big respect for Roglic for his honesty, he is man and big champion, he rides for the win and didn't hides behind his daughter's birthday or present for his wife, and ill teammate like Jonas did.
Sepp Kuss also said that it was Roglic - not Vingegaard - who refused to relent in the Vuelta. Which Roglic has confirmed... Probably also made Roglic wanting to go elsewhere. 😉
There was just too much talent on one team. Maybe Primoz was somewhat accepting it if he won the Giro and the Vuelta. Got his 1st and 4th victory. But Sepp and Jonas placing ahead of him. It was obvious he wasn't happy and wanted that victory. I'm happy for him. Bora has a lot of good climbers, he is a good fit. It might have been inevitable either way. And glad to hear Sepp will try again, I thought he would. Let's just hope the top 4 especially stay healthy prior to and throughout the Tour. Should be one to remember.
I've thought about this the last few weeks and I would say this; Roglic's contract was up in 2024 and it's obvious Vingegaard is Jumbo-Visma's GC man for the TdF. As long as he is as close to a 100% guarantee to win it no one else will be chosen. Not even Roglic. And after the leadership SNAFU that was the Vuelta Roglic was likely not keen on sharing leader duties again and who can blame him. It only worked in the 2022 TdF because Roglic crashed out and Vingegaard was in place to lead the team to victory. I think he would've moved on to a new team in 2025 but the Vuelta situation moved the timeline up a year and I'm glad both he and Jumbo-Visma were adult enough to let that play out without any drama. At least in public.
I love Primos and Steph.. Would like to see Steph in the Pink jersey and Primos in the yellow. With Tadjeh, Jonas, Evenepoel it could be the most exciting grand tour season ever.
Hey Chris! Could you analyze Tadej Pogacar's expected racing calendar? Does such a tightly packed calendar make sense? What would be the best solution for him?
@chrishornercycling I don’t know the dynamics of your 2003 team, but the styles of Roglic/Vingegaard are so different that it maybe more difficult to decide who is the better rider during the grand tour. Because Roglic likely excels in punchier stages with 10 second bonuses, earlier in the 3 weeks, and during TT it is difficult for a team to determine if that’s a better chance than protecting a guy early on that will likely dominate the final week in Vingo.
Vingegaard showed great form already in the first week of the Tour this year, your statement isn’t really accurate. In the Vuelta first week Jonas was ill, so can’t say that he isn’t on top in the first week.
I think Primož didn't have "problem" with Jonas, atleast not before Vuelta. His "problem" was the team. When promises about two co-leaders were just on the paper.
Either way, no matter who he has a problem with over there he’s not going to want to lose to Jumbo next season we know that’s for sure. Because he didn’t like losing at this years Vuelta and he was riding on the team then. 😱😜👊🦋
@@Relevant_Irrelevance far from hating or blaming Sepp..I had TDF 22 in mind..when he was left alone and on this years Vuelta two "green lights" for Jonas's attack in last moment..oposite to agreement before race.
@@vbh4113 The problem wasn't Jonas attacking (that was essentially part of the overall "you can fight for it" agreement), but that no other team was really responding to it, giving him a lot more time than should have been the case.
I dont really agree chris. I agree that roglic has no choice but to leave, but that is not 'forcing'. He still had a contract. He could have still won the giro and/or vuelta next year. His ambitions dont match the team's ambitions anymore, so he leaves. And if jumbo WANTED to, they couldve held him to his contract. So yes, it is better that he left. I also dont think that him an vingegaard could be on the same team for the simple fact that IF jonas gets ahead in the race, he is not allowed to attack anymore and go for the win. He is stuck then. So I honestly think this is the best solution for all parties involved.
Primoz had issues at la Vuelta and his time at JV was essentially at an end. He's also 34. Jonas is 27. Sepp knows he's a domestique, but if he gets his chance, he'll go for it, but won't lose his marbles when he's in a support role. I hope it goes well for Primoz at Boras, but that team isn't comparable with JV or UAE.
I'm not a cyclist but I also knew it back when the news was released that he wasn't going to the tour that he would most likely leave the team, and then what played out throughout this season confirmed my initial thoughts. The Vuelta was icing on the cake. I agree 100% with him leaving. I can't believe, with his resume, that they wouldn't put him on the TdF team, just as a courtesy if nothing else. I think it was punishment for losing the 2020 race. I'm happy for him, and I hope he will have the success he is looking for.
And offend Jonas who won the TDF and has proven to be the best GT rider? There is only one person in jumbo that is irreplaceable…and that is the current 2x tdf champ.
Sending Vingegaard to the Vuelta was probably already a way for Jumbo Visma to anticipate Roglic leaving the team. He could go for the overall win, but it would not be their only chance. It may also have been a test of their respective strength. This is why Roglic wanted to show off, felt the race should have been for him, and wanted it on his palmares to get a nicer contract with another team. I contrast, Vingegaard owed Sep Kuss a favour for the Tour, and was certain to have a spot in the team, so put team interest first. It was almost unavoidable. They are two of the very best riders in the world with a heavy price tag and with the same ambitions. Jumbo Visma was struggling to find a new sponsor and other teams were struggling to find top riders. Next season will be really entertaining. One more thing: Roglic may seem to have dominated, but sometimes the ball fell on his side of the net: the margin to Evenepoel in Catalonia was 6 seconds, LBL was a mistake by Alaphilippe, and I still don't know why Thomas lost this year's Giro and I believe that Evenepoel would have won had he not caught COVID. Not saying Roglic didn't impress, but he's not from a different planet like Pogacar.
My observation is that there is no second fiddle when it comes to the grand tours. I can't recall a team where there were "two leaders" that didn't turn out acrimonious. I think everyone agrees that it would be best for Roglic to move on.
off course it's not true that Kuss easily finished the job at the Vuelta!! He was just able to avoid getting dropped in the last a bit hard (not even tough) stages. It was for marketing reasons that R. & V. were kept short. I don't see Kuss win anymore grand tours... Last year he already said explicitly that he liked his place as it was. (which is pedalling along, probably enjoying the scenery and being outside and once in a while assisting on the climbs) He wasn't born a winner and thus also doesn't like dying........
My personaly theory about the Vuelta is .. Jonas was okay giving the win to Kuss .. Roglic was not .. and maybe internally jonas was used as a "nuclear Deterent" to keep roglic from attacking kuss , so if he attacked .. jonas would have free reign to attack roglic in return
You forget stage 16 in the Vuelta where Jonas took off leaving Kuss and Roglic to mark the other riders, Jonas excuse for doing it was to honor another cyclist from JV not riding in the Vuelta. It was in this stage that he took the most time from Kuss and Roglic for the whole race. On stage 17 both Roglic and Jonas thought that Kuss would loose minutes after they dropped him but Landa saved him, keeping the lead by 8 sec. Roglic knew at that point that the best he could do was finish 3rd.
Yeah and I think he was very disappointed that Jumbo didn't keep their agreement... that he (and jonas) was free to race, and let the best man win the vuelta.
on the stage Kuss took the lead Primoz was overwhelmingly happy and came up to him to celebrate. Jonas did not and could barely look him in the eye in the cool down room waiting for the medals.
Chris, just for fun. Jumbo- has just hired a new coach, Jacco Verhaeren. He comes from the SWIMMING world. They said that cycling can learn from other sports when it comes to conditioning and training.
I am trying to sympathize with Primož. Look, in the winter, he had shoulder surgery. After a difficult recovery, he started systematic training. He immediately stated the Giro and Vuelta double as his main goal. He intensified his form and trained excellently, without major upheavals. At the Giro, he had a rather awkward injury where he was stitched up for a deep wound on his side. In very bad weather, he had to conserve energy for the last important stage at Svete Višarje, which he convincingly won in the end. With this achievement, he confirmed his victory at the 2023 Giro. He then continued the season, the first one without major falls and injuries. He was looking forward to the Vuelta. Finally healthy and without injuries. He wanted the overall victory, he wanted to achieve his 4th win and enter the ranks of legends. To his regret, he stumbled a bit when Remco did not follow Kuss's attack on that stage. And so we were deprived of really interesting battles at this Vuelta. In the end, an excellent cyclist won, but not the best. I believe Primož was very frustrated in the middle of the race, as he was ready to fight for the win. I can only imagine how he felt when they decided to finally stop attacking. They are a special kind of competitors who strive for victories, that's why they have so many and they are not helpers. A helper has a different way of thinking. Therefore, it is almost irrelevant whether Primož was "eliminated" from the Jumbo team or if he had that desire himself. In my opinion, it's a combination of both options. But it will be all the more exciting in the next season. May it be successful for everyone, without falls and injuries, and we, cycling enthusiasts, will also benefit from it.
Thanks Chris for another nice and insightful explanation. I completely agree that he was kicked out. (Ask their DSs). Primoz was really the king of JV got more wins than van Aert and Jonas together. He was machine for winning. I would really like to see Primoz win TDF and then see the face of Plugge when asked why they let the king go. 👊👊👊 In JV one GC leader position is to be occupied by Sepp. Well deserved! And one comment more on drama....the feelings you had for Sepp/JV in Vuelta 2023 were the same as feelings in Slovenia in 2020 when Pogi won over Primoz (as there were team Slovenia racing).
Chris, you’re most known for climbing exploits, but you’re right, many may not know about your speed on the American circuit. I saw you going so fast solo it defied the laws of physics, at the Athens Twilight. And Danny…not a vein, not a muscle, unassuming, gentle, rocket sled for hours.
He made that team really. Everyone signed to ride with him not the other way around. The fishmonger didn't bring in the crazy sponsor funding or the rest of the powerful team. That was primoz. Wout and company will all walk if not grossly over paid because of the lack of loyalty the team showed to the workers. I for one can't wait to see four solid gc contenders in the TDF they will force Jonas to not hide out of the wind and race for crying out loud. With two hilly but not crazy climbing ITT in this years race it doesn't favor Jonas at all in fact remco could easily run away with them. Last years route couldn't possibly be more designed for Jonas unless he set the routs himself. This year is gonna be epic and for Jonas to have a real chance you will have to keep the workers in line no wout glory rides
While last years course was like tailormade for Pogacar with several stages like Puy de Dome and Colombier - the 24 editon looks more to favour Jonas who stated that this is the best of the 4 in his time. If you want to be a great GC-rider the art is, among others, to stay out of the wind - but I really dont recall Jonas taking less wind than for example Pogacar and Yates.
There is a difference between "kicked out off the team" and "he was denied (co-)leadership in the tour". The first is forceful and a bad act of disrespect. The second one is much more nuanced, has many more reasons behind the decision, including complex personalities, too many superstars in one team, career planing and team planing. At the end the visions don't overlap enough and both parties decide as adult people to make a change. I often agree with Chris Horner but in this case I still don't know what reasons lead to such a strong opinion. For me there is too much focus on a theory of very bad blood between the riders and team. I simply can't see enough evidence and therefore can't agree with Chris. Maybe the future will proof me wrong. And I am ok with that. :-) Thanks for your videos Chris! 🎉
@@inkjazz I agree with the first half of your comment. 😀 There are opposing oppinions and overlapping interests. That happens all the time in every competitive sport. All the continuous speculation about the personal level and "bad blood" between people in the present or future is just boring now. We heard it many times in the last two months by some media. 😀
He wasn't even denied co-leadership, he refused it because he wanted sole leadership. It was all about wanting to go to the TdF as sole leader so his team rides the way he wants.
@@gs78798 both. Last year he went to Giro because he was only offered co-leadership at the tour. He probably hoped things would the other way around next year (or hoping that co-leadership in the Vuelta showed it could work out well). Since things didn't work out well, changing teams was the only thing to do, especially since Bora approached him with the offer after the Vuelta.
Sepp Kuss won’t be allowed in an early break again. Also, who will be his mountain domestique?? If he goes for GC in the Giro, he won’t be able to co-lead or be Jonas’ super-domestique. To me it looks like Jumbo will crumble to pieces next season. We will see an epic battle between the Slovenians after they have worked together to drop Remco out of contention.
He wasn’t forced out, but he was forced to make a decision. PR is a leader and has clearly has the resume to back it. Vuelta España was a disaster. Once the media and public got heavily involved, it was over. PR goal is to win TDF. So he had go elsewhere. Letting the public decide a career was would be a no go for any athlete at his level.
Roglic in best shape can’t even follow the wheel of Almeida and G. He won’t even finish on the podium of the tdf, my guess is not even top 5 because he will crash out like always.
Always very good stories. One thing you forgot to mention is Why bring Jonas to the Vuelta. That should have been the moment Roglic realised he was on the way out. Also, maybe do a video sometime on the smartest and dumbest riders.
Because Jonas is their main future GC rider and already wanted to ride it last year but decided in the end not to? It was also already decided before the start of the season, so Roglic knew Jonas would go too. The main problem in the Vuelta was Sepp getting 3 minutes from the break, taking and keeping the jersey.
Too many ego's on JV, Primoz made the right move. Side note: American cycling is producing some solid talent. I was at the UCI World Championships in Glasgow this year, Kevin Vermaerke did very well (unitl he got a flat). McNulty looked good in the TT but took 4th. Had a chance to meet Colby Simmons (U23) and Brody McDonald (U23)as well. Chatted with a Serbian rider who raced in the USA in the 90's, he agreed that there was a drop off in American talent but the future looks better.
Don’t see link for tickets to Houston Nov 4 and is not on your calendar. Please add link to this stream please. Can’t wait to see you talk in person. Where, when, how?
Joint leadership means, i my mind - that the tactics for the two riders is quite similar. Imagine Jonas wanting the stages to be exhausting every day since he feels thats how he can crackTadej - and Primoz probably wanting it the other way around. If the course of the tour is as hard as the roumours tell I think Sepp will be needed 100% there and maybe get some kind of leadershiprole in the Vuelta afterwards
First like 😉 Thanks for the insights. Was always curious if TJV got lucky that two domestiques were THAT good or did they have a clue they were overloading... 🤔
I commented on your stage 21 video 3 months ago after the announcement that Jonas is going to Vuelta that they will piss Primoz off. This is not 2022 dauphine anymore as Jonas won 2 the Tour 2 times since, they cannot be on a same team in a same race. Primoz is lighthearted and is joking, but you can see he was getting pissed off towards the end of Vuelta and was expressing him self more in the interviews. But maybe it is better this way everyone probably got what they wanted. How do you feel of Bora's team and support for Primoz vis a vis winning the big race in July?
Roglic was not pissed off that Jonas went to the Vuelta (that already was decided in december when they also assigned the Giro and TdF), rather that they were promised that they could attack eachother if the situation allowed it (like being ahead of everyone else). Kuss being up there and Jonas and the public supporting the idea he should be protected changed this, that imo was what really pissed him off.
Roglic also came into the Vuelta thinking he would win. That was a difficult pill to swallow letting Sepp win. I think Roglic was complaining about the situation and management at Visma decided to nudge him out. Likely Roglic has 2 more good years and he is done, so Visma needed to plan for the future. I think the Quickstep/Visma merger is what did it and I think that was a ruse to nudge him out, that Visma never intended to follow through with that, and likely the UCI might have stepped in and blocked it. Think about how Roglic would react, he has 2 other GC contenders on his team and the merger would give them another credible GC man. He would never race the TDF again under Visma. Well as that merger rumor was circling around, then the Roglic rumors began. Once we had official announcement that Roglic was going to Bora, then the merger is called off.
La Gazzetta dello Sport says TJV will try to win the Giro with Wout van Aert. He might skip the Tour de France in order to prepare specifically for the Olympics.
So many talks about Primoz concerning Jumbo Visma. But does anybody thinks he really made a difference in those 2 years dominance of TJV in TDF? I think NOT! Specially in those 3rd weeks where his presence could have mattered. i am, eversince 2021 convinced that when he is against Tadej, he's done and dusted as far as TDF is concerned.
Chris, how will the other teams react? I mean no-one else has a descent chance to win if all of the big four are on the start line. So would all the other teams basically skip GC and go for stages? ANyway, let us hope the big four all stay healthy and enter TdF in their best form and that Roglic doesn't hit the floor. Then we are in for the most entertaining TdF ever.
Let’s hope so. I think the others would love just to slid between the big four if possible and would consider that a win. Others will target the Giro if they are smart. 😜👊🦋🔥💥
It would be fairytale, Kuss winning Giro, but how that can be done with 2024 route? 70km mostly flat ITT, shorter, more explosive stages, less climbing ... no Jonas and Primož to support him. Odds not exactly stacked in his favor. Field may be weaker, but it would be miracle if he wins.
I wonder if Plugge just felt so embarrassed after the 2020 TdF that they decided to not have him be a lead role (or have a back-up leader, like Jonas) for the Tour. Now that they are able to win the TdF with out Rolgic, his only chance is to move to another team. I bet he'll fulfill a really good leadership role for Bora and he'll have some good strategy against VLB! (Visma-lease-a-bike...)
My 2 cents: it was a numbers game of Roglic’s age and money. Age factor, how many more years can Roglic race at this pace. Knowing that they sold high. With that money saved from paying him they can invest in their future albeit Jonas or the supporting cast. I feel Jumbo did a respect move in allowing him to go and win the tour with another team if he can which I want him to. I don’t see the bad blood as much as I see the number aspect. But I’m not an insider like you Chris. Great video.
@@janefreeman995 He didn't really forfeit 3 million, Bora did. Moreover Roglic now is potentially the (2nd) best payed rider in the peloton, much more than he earned at TJV.
Kuss has nothing to do with Roglic leaving TJV, it's all about Vingegaard. Vingegaard attacked Kuss twice and Roglic always stayed with race leader. He was the one protecting him and making sure he can help him in case of Kuss getting into trouble. The problem was when he then decided he wanted to win the Angliru stage (which entire team said Roglic said he wanted to do even before the Vuelta started, he circled that stage for himself) and Vingegaard did NOT stay with Kuss, as he should have. Roglic wasn't going for the red, he was going for the stage win. He was way behind. In fact, when Roglic saw that Vingegaard was following, he slowed down, making sure that Kuss didn't lose the red. I am 100% certain that Vingegaard was hoping for that to have happened. Roglic and Kuss are friends and Kuss even has Slovenian roots. Roglic lost Vuelta on purpose, some of the comments I am seeing are crazy.
@@clausavanzini2579 Roglic said they were talking about him leaving the team before the season started even. Basically the moment he saw that he was not in TdF squad.
Everything we get from within the team is that Jonas was talking about supporting Kuss for a while and Roglic about letting everyone fighting for the win (as was agreed upon before the Vuelta), with the team siding with Roglic untill the Angliru stage. Kuss also pointed towards Vingegaard being the one supporting his GC bid behind the scenes.
Bora payed that. It is pretty normal for a rider that isn't out of contract that wants to leave. I don't know for the Netherlands, but in Belgium without a cancellation contract, he/bora could be forced to pay the equivalent of # years of contract left x the yearly salary through court. There is no real reason for TJV not to ask it, they are losing their 2nd best GC rider and pointscorer (maybe 2nd best overall rider depending on WVA). So getting something back (especially when there are potentially financial difficulties) makes perfect sense. You'd only not ask for something like this if you don't mind the rider leaving because they are "dead weight", like Groenewegen more or less was at TJV.
Roglic is a class act to switch teams without causing any kind of drama.
I would agree until the Vuelta where he attacked Cuss 😮
@@uzi6722 Kuss was never better then Roglic/Jonas at Vuelta but media helped him. And it was Roglic race (he prepared for it while Kuss and Jonas were on TFD) so he can be pissed off by team decisions. On the other hand we all loved when Kuss won as underdog.
@@nazgulzg it was his Vuelta until Vingegaard and also Kuss came uninvited to the party. Headscratcher. Then Kuss, while Remco still in Red, in the breakaway, then Remco loses half an hour, rest of the competition is no threat or whatsoever, media comes in and Jumbo decided to give in to media pressure and have an American fairytale winner. Never happened before, will never happen again. Kuss won't win another gc to my feel, it's a whole different ballgame starting as favourite and team leader. Sure, he has the climbing legs and time trial skills to go a long way, but if he is leader, he needs..a Kuss.
I believe Kuss was going to go to the Vuelta as a super domestic. The way stage 6 (I think) played out, he ended up in the leaders jersey soon after. Like Chris notes many, many times, you don't attack your teammate in the leader's jersey. If the rider you are marking pulls you to the jersey, that is a different situation. In this case, other teams didn't have the strength to attack Kuss/ Jonas/ Roglič so there wasn't a reason for either Jonas or Roglič to attack. Just my 2 cents.
@@nazgulzgh
I want Roglic to win the TDF so badly! It’s hilarious to consider him an underdog, but I so desperately want to see him get redemption after the string of bad luck he’s had from 2020-2022.
He looked fantastic this season - always raced intelligently, and managed to keep out of trouble. I’m hopeful he’ll carry that form and that confidence into the TDF next year and give the others a run for their money!
Best comment love what you said
He was barely able to win against 37 year old G, couldn’t pull away of Jonas once in the Vuelta, no disrespect but that really doesn’t make you a favourite for the upcoming Tour.
me tooo... so much... it would have a special meanning - not only the win itself he wants to achieve, but to take it from tjv, who didnt believe in him... I wish him sooooo much to win tdf 2024.
He's to old
@@NowayfrrrrrrrAgreed. He should have been able to dominate Thomas to a much larger extent. I simply can't see him beating Jonas and Tadej, providing there is no accidents.
My guess is that Rogic decided it was time for a change in order to be a contender for the TDF one more time.....and he made the right choice....lots of support at the Bora team...would love to see him going at it against Vingegaard!!!
Too old, too late, he won't be able to match up with Jonas and Pogi(if he decide to concentrate on winning tdf again) in the super steep mountains of tdf! that's a fact
@@mracer8 Tell Chris Horner that...."Too old, too late, he won't be able...."
👊🦋🦋🦋🦋👊👊🦋👊👊🦋🦋🦋
And and and let's not forget how hard Toglic worked for Jonas to win his first TDF in 2022 on stage 11...after he dislocated his shoulder in the bale crash earlier in the race.
Roglic went deep for the team on that stage 11. Epic days of racing that’s for sure. 🔥💥👊🦋
And Kuss helped him to win this year’s Giro and still Roglic decided to attack him.
@@Nowayfrrrrrrr Primož didnt attacked Kuss - it was Jonas who did not primož. primož went for the win on Angliru, he wasnt a danger to sepp 1st. jonas was - and Jonas never stayed with kuss - never... first he solo atacked both Kuss and Primož, and than he went with primož, where he eas to stay with Sepp and help him, but he didnt. Primož was not a danger on sepp's 1st place when he attacked on Angliru.
@@barbarap9452 Jonas didn’t stay with Kuss because then Primoz would’ve overtaken him in the GC. How you’re gonna victim blame selfish Roglic when he was the one who attacked his team mate ffs.
@@Nowayfrrrrrrr I disagree. Yes, Primoz was wrong to go for the stage win in a way that put Sepp at risk of losing GC to Jonas by dragging Jonas to the finish. And Primoz did not need to analyze all that, Primoz sand the team director should have avoided any problem by Primoz just sticking with Sepp especially after Sepp dropped all but one of the other contenders. But Jonas could and should have thwarted any trouble caused by Primoz by showing Jonas's strength and class and insisting on pulling or working with Sepp to keep Primoz in range (or even catch Primoz} which keeping Primoz in range would have been no problem given how strong Sepp was looking that day, seeing how Sepp dropped other contenders, chasing Primoz and Jonas down. Instead Jonas showed his strength and LACK of class by easily sitting on Primoz's wheel to the finish and leaving Sepp hanging back there.
People like to look for drama, but there really isn't much drama. Ofcourse it's a shame that a bannerman for the team went out look for another team to get his freedom back, but one of his teammates simply surpassed him. Jumbo certainly didn't want Roglic to go, but they could never give him a full team for the TdF which is what Roglic wanted. It's only fair for the both of them to agree on parting ways. It's a bloody shame it went like this, but it was impossible to keep Vingegaard and Roglic in the same team by now.
I wish Roglic all the best.
No way anyone will let Sepp go in a breakaway gaining 3 minutes again 😅
He won’t need 3mins if Pog, Jonas, Rog, and Remco are racing somewhere else. He will need a friendly to climbers course which wouldn’t hurt any. 🤔👊🦋
I think the. Vieira suits Sepp the best. I think he will be the Visma leader at the Vuelta. It seems Sepp has changed his mind about being a leader from what I heard. I think the big 4 will go all out at TDF. Which leaves the Vuelta as Sepp as the most likely favorite because it’s usually very mountainous which I agree suits him best. I honestly think he can go back to back because probably he will be up against the guys he was by far better than at this years Vuelta i.e. Ayuso, Almedia, Vlasov, etc.
That's the point. That's how Jumbo beat Pogacar at the Tour over the last two seasons. Vingegaard and management don'tGAF whether or not Kuss wins anything ever again.
Roglic was unbeaten in 2023 stage races going into the Vuelta. When the Jumbo-Visma directors decided that Sepp Kuss was to win over Primoz leaving him to miss out on going through 2023 stage races unbeaten, he knew it was time to go elsewhere.
Exactly
Jonas looked like the strongest rider in the Vuelta.
@@At_the_Gardenyep he was unbeaten on TT huh? 😂
He was behind Jonas in the GC, couldn’t pull away from him but was the best? Sure buddy🤣
Roglic will get obliterated the next Tour and he won’t even be top 3.
@@puncheur69Jonas came second in GC even though he was ill the first week. Primos in best shape can’t even hang with Jonas when he’s ill💀
It was Michael Hessman that pushed Roglic out of the team. His doping case activated a clause in the sponsor contract that allowed Jumbo to end the sponsorship at the end of this year rather than next year. Therefore TJV was in desperate need of money for next year and had to find an emergency solution. So either they needed to merge and get Soudal as the sponsor or they had to sell Roglic and get a temporary sponsor, which they got with Lease A Bike.
Won't be the only doping case in Jumbo Visma, jumbo is smart for pulling out while their name is not tarnished.
Money certainly played a part. 3 million parts. 😜👊👊🦋💰
Which could be needed
This is bullshit. Jumbo allready decided to quit sponsorship of the team before the doping case of Hessman. Jumbo is a dutch supermarket which also has a few locations in Belgium. Their CEO was replaced recently and for Jumbo there really wasn't any reason to continue a heavy investment into a cycling team anymore. Actually they decided to stop a lot of sponsoring of dutch sportsman. Also Verstappen for example.
So stop posting bullshit. thank you.
I absolutely agree with your assessment here. It was clear that he would need to leave, after the obvious issues in the last grand tour.
👊🦋
Big Primoz fan, so hoping he can continue to win at Bora. Going to be exciting next year in the European Peloton
I think I've said this before. You make pro cycling history and current events so clear. Have learned so much.
I totally agree with you Chris! I hope I live long enough to see Roglic win the 2024 Tour de France! 😊😊
Roglic is too talented to play second fiddle. I thought he had a damned good chance to podium the Tour after that last week of the Giro and was surprised to not see him at the TDF. I chalked it up to team politics, and now Visma has another credible GC team gunnin for them.
Jonas has been better than Sepp, Primos and Tadej in the high mountains. Jumbo Visma as a team has to secure their best climber for the tour. Now that Kuss also acts on the highest level, he can function as second leader. Primos wants to ride the tour without have to worry about competition from teammates. There was no other outcome, It's a win for all, including the fans.
I read an interview with Sepp this weekend and he said that he was looking forward to going to the ‘24 Vuelta as the defending champion and possible co- leader (if the course is suitable for him) with Jonas in the Tour. There was no mention of the going to the Giro. While things can change in the next six months I am sticking to what I posted last week and we will see Sepp and Jumbo Lease focusing on the week long races and then a Tour - Vuelta double. Don’t see Sepp doing all three GTs again next year. Personally I would rather have 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta over 2 Vueltas. Anyway, love your channel Chris! 👍
I wonder how jonas would react when he sees sepp attacking him as a co-leader in the next tdf
Roglic! Un signore!! 🚴♀️
❤️🦋👊
Visma Lease a Bike, what a mouthful. You know cycling is getting expensive when you need to lease a bike.😂
We’ll own nothing, and we’ll be “happy”.
Like the judge said in Caddyshack. "You'll get nothing and like it!!"
"Visma LaB"
@@ZENmud that actually works. VismaLab is the new secret laboratory where all these super cyclists are created. Kind of like Skunkworks for Lockheed.😂
😂😂😂😂🦋true that
Right on Chris regarding Roglic. Yes exciting season. And Sep Kuss is very light. Meaning he will do less work that the others and be fresher at end of each tour. And remember he did three tours and still won. Wow
Exactly. 😳👊🦋🔥
Chris, thanks for amping up your mic system with the Rode set up. Your audio is much better. It would be thrilling to see Sepp Kuss compete for the win in the 2024 Giro. Do you guys think he can do another 3 grand tours in the same year again, and be competitive to defend in the Vuelta, after pulling for Jonas in the mountains of the Tour, after racing for the win in the Giro? Let's hope so.
The more serious question for Sepp is whether he is riding all three Grand Tours again.
Does Jonas need Sepp as a super domestique to win the Tour De France again?
This poses another question who is Roglič super domestique for the Tour at Bora?
Im think, flatland Nico denz-Bob Jungels top, in mountains, Adria°& Danny Martinez, maybe Uijtdebroeks. Bora a nice team in 24
@@blindfuxi Buchmann could be a strong support in the mountains...maybe also Vlasov,Hindley or Kämna
@@blindfuxi Uijtdebroeks is rumoured to be heading to Ineos.
Buchmann yes, but Denkt plan, Hindley go to Giro, Vlasov in supporting team? Im look this way 😀Wandahl?The young Danish, Polka dot yersey win in Guahgxi tour, 2 weeks ago, BORA strong team in 24 ,@@yuriboykkaaa1337
hmmm.....interasting. The Emperior-without GC favourite, after Chris (Froomey) and Egan. Big space.@@patrickwong4824
If you count being the team leader and another rider winning two tour de france's - yes.
Ive heard him say since joing Bora its all in for le tour even though people may think it "absurd". If that is correct thats a weird mindset and suggests a possible lack of belief. Why absurd, he left because its there and its the only thing (lombardia/Worlds) left for him. Also he's a four times GT winner and Olympic TT champ... why care what "others" think. If he wins its because of issues for top two. Podium at best for this stella racer!
I'm curious whether Hindley is going to feel the same way as Roglic or if they can split the tours equitably.
The Giro totally makes sense for Kuss. I'm guessing Jonas will have taken away from the last Vuelta that he can pull off a double grand tour victory. The TdF would be the priorty and see what happens at the Vuelta.
Once you get one, you want more!
I just can't wait for 24. It's going to be epic! It's going to be odd watching Prizmo in a different Jersey. Great job.🤜🤛 OH, and Damm, it's snowing.
Right, in green and be sure he will be mean. 😜👊🦋
Zes sir, he will be@@ChrisHornerCycling
Nice one Chris! This has been on my mind since announcements of changes within teams. Ever since the 177th stage of Vuelta when Sepp jumped on Landa wheel-probably mumbling "those m.fer's"- things were changing. Loved the breakdown
👊🦋🦅🌋
Great analysis Chris. Thank you
Oh, I hope you'll be doing a talk in Bend next year! You have the magic combo of great legs and mind & ability to explain racing strategies to us all. I would love to time another business trip to Bend with getting to hear your talk in person! I still smile recalling seeing you lap the field once, maybe even twice!, at a Crit in downtown Portland in the late '90s!! 😂
Well it seems we now know the story. Roglic was mad at what happened on stage 16--then came stage 17. Jumbo's director stated the following:
"Everything went the way we wanted again. There were three of us left and that was actually the moment when things didn't go well," Zeeman told the Met open vizier podcast, according to WielerFlits.
"Sepp couldn't keep up with Primož and Jonas at one point. Then there was no more teamwork.
"I should add right away that when you ride uphill on gradients of up to 20% you race with a heart rate of 200, so you can't expect those guys to think clearly."
In the end, Kuss survived in the red jersey, with the next day's stage to La Cruz de Linares seeing the three riders present a united front in the face of widespread confusion and criticism. Roglič and Vingegaard shepherded Kuss up the final climb, having dispensed with the previous 'free for all' racing style.
Zeeman said that the team got together in the evening after the Angliru stage, with riders free to give their opinions on what had happened. an agreement was to back Kuss was thrashed out but not unanimously.
"Give your opinion and talk to each other instead of about each other. We started this in 2016 or 2017 and a strong foundation has rolled out from there, a culture. That's essentially what our team has been built on.
"Cycling for us is a team sport not an individual one," he added. "That evening I put all the men together around one table. I spoke to Jonas, Sepp, and Primož beforehand and heard their views.
"But then I got eight grown men together and said: 'Guys, this is what happened today. I have my thoughts on this, but I think it's much more important what you think.'"
Zeeman revealed that the majority of the team - all riders except for Roglič - agreed that Kuss should be the sole leader with the team's backing all the way to Madrid. However, the Slovenian, who is set to ride for Bora-Hansgrohe next year, accepted the decision and got behind Kuss.
"What do we stand for now? Who are we actually? Seven riders agreed that [Kuss winning] must be the final result," Zeeman said.
"Primož had a more difficult time with this, but he agreed to it. That was also because his teammates indicated it so forcefully. In the end he said, 'Sepp has to win and you can count on me.'"
@ malencid. What a load of bx. The fallout ‘that’ evening from the public and racers on how they treated Sep was a PR disaster. They did a u turn on tactics to save their asses. Roglic was like a a spoilt kid, he did well with huge amounts of assistance from his team, then ‘forgot’ he was in a team. Don’t you get the feeling the team was a bit peed off with that ?
@@douglasalexander4348Jonas said he wanted Sepp to win while attacking him 3 times and gaining time back!😂 Big respect for Roglic for his honesty, he is man and big champion, he rides for the win and didn't hides behind his daughter's birthday or present for his wife, and ill teammate like Jonas did.
@@МаргаритаСтоянова-з7з Agree…
Sepp Kuss also said that it was Roglic - not Vingegaard - who refused to relent in the Vuelta. Which Roglic has confirmed... Probably also made Roglic wanting to go elsewhere. 😉
exactly. roglic got what he deserved for not supporting the person who supported him for so long.
There was just too much talent on one team. Maybe Primoz was somewhat accepting it if he won the Giro and the Vuelta. Got his 1st and 4th victory. But Sepp and Jonas placing ahead of him. It was obvious he wasn't happy and wanted that victory. I'm happy for him. Bora has a lot of good climbers, he is a good fit. It might have been inevitable either way. And glad to hear Sepp will try again, I thought he would. Let's just hope the top 4 especially stay healthy prior to and throughout the Tour. Should be one to remember.
I've thought about this the last few weeks and I would say this; Roglic's contract was up in 2024 and it's obvious Vingegaard is Jumbo-Visma's GC man for the TdF. As long as he is as close to a 100% guarantee to win it no one else will be chosen. Not even Roglic. And after the leadership SNAFU that was the Vuelta Roglic was likely not keen on sharing leader duties again and who can blame him. It only worked in the 2022 TdF because Roglic crashed out and Vingegaard was in place to lead the team to victory.
I think he would've moved on to a new team in 2025 but the Vuelta situation moved the timeline up a year and I'm glad both he and Jumbo-Visma were adult enough to let that play out without any drama. At least in public.
I love Primos and Steph.. Would like to see Steph in the Pink jersey and Primos in the yellow. With Tadjeh, Jonas, Evenepoel it could be the most exciting grand tour season ever.
Agreed 👊🦋
"Steph"???
@@gobears6487 Autocorrect iPhone fail, I assume
Steph won the Vuelta. He could win the Giro next year. @@gobears6487
Sepp, sorry @@gobears6487
No brag, just facts here on Beyond the Coverage🚴🦋😎
👊🦋
Chris what was the result after you left Prime Alliance? Who did better the following season, you or Jonathan? Was it a good move for you to leave?
Yes. We won all season long over at Saturn. Jonathan stopped racing just after the first half of the season and retired. 😱🦋
Chris Horner lays it down like no one else!!!
👊🦋🔥
Love the retro jerseys. It would be nice to see the Nutra-Fig jersey you used in the Tour DuPont
Hey Chris! Could you analyze Tadej Pogacar's expected racing calendar? Does such a tightly packed calendar make sense? What would be the best solution for him?
I would love to post one. 👊🦋
@chrishornercycling I don’t know the dynamics of your 2003 team, but the styles of Roglic/Vingegaard are so different that it maybe more difficult to decide who is the better rider during the grand tour. Because Roglic likely excels in punchier stages with 10 second bonuses, earlier in the 3 weeks, and during TT it is difficult for a team to determine if that’s a better chance than protecting a guy early on that will likely dominate the final week in Vingo.
Vingegaard showed great form already in the first week of the Tour this year, your statement isn’t really accurate. In the Vuelta first week Jonas was ill, so can’t say that he isn’t on top in the first week.
@@Nowayfrrrrrrr I would say his best form was in the 3rd week of the Tour when he won the TT by like 2 minutes.
@@thenorsegodsdiscgolf5751 I meant that he showed great performances already in the first week, I didn’t explain it properly
Just curious CH. Do you have a total for the number of pro jerseys you have worn during your career?
No. Between the races and the special jersey during the race (sprint, KOM, etc) it gets to difficult to remember. 🤔🦋👍
I think Primož didn't have "problem" with Jonas, atleast not before Vuelta. His "problem" was the team. When promises about two co-leaders were just on the paper.
Sounds like you just hate Kuss. He did so much work, lost chances for Rog and Vingo, he deserves it....
Either way, no matter who he has a problem with over there he’s not going to want to lose to Jumbo next season we know that’s for sure. Because he didn’t like losing at this years Vuelta and he was riding on the team then. 😱😜👊🦋
@@Relevant_Irrelevance far from hating or blaming Sepp..I had TDF 22 in mind..when he was left alone and on this years Vuelta two "green lights" for Jonas's attack in last moment..oposite to agreement before race.
@@vbh4113 The problem wasn't Jonas attacking (that was essentially part of the overall "you can fight for it" agreement), but that no other team was really responding to it, giving him a lot more time than should have been the case.
Damn those KTM testdrives add color to the face, channel and all!
😂👊🦋
I dont really agree chris. I agree that roglic has no choice but to leave, but that is not 'forcing'. He still had a contract. He could have still won the giro and/or vuelta next year. His ambitions dont match the team's ambitions anymore, so he leaves. And if jumbo WANTED to, they couldve held him to his contract. So yes, it is better that he left. I also dont think that him an vingegaard could be on the same team for the simple fact that IF jonas gets ahead in the race, he is not allowed to attack anymore and go for the win. He is stuck then. So I honestly think this is the best solution for all parties involved.
prime alliance, saturn, mercury, carney, moniger, pate, candelario, and willet! blast from the past. What about that big Canadian on PA in '02? :)
Chris, do you think Powless stays with EF? What an exciting year ahead for American cycling!
He should leave if they keep telling him to attack early again and again. 😱🦋
Right on, yep. Will be very keen to see what he decides to do with his contract wrapping. Thanks for the reply!
Thankss for this great video
Primoz had issues at la Vuelta and his time at JV was essentially at an end. He's also 34. Jonas is 27. Sepp knows he's a domestique, but if he gets his chance, he'll go for it, but won't lose his marbles when he's in a support role. I hope it goes well for Primoz at Boras, but that team isn't comparable with JV or UAE.
Horner is a Hoarder of old jerseys
I was waiting for you to tell us what happened in Saturn team after leaving Prime Alliance
I'm not a cyclist but I also knew it back when the news was released that he wasn't going to the tour that he would most likely leave the team, and then what played out throughout this season confirmed my initial thoughts. The Vuelta was icing on the cake. I agree 100% with him leaving. I can't believe, with his resume, that they wouldn't put him on the TdF team, just as a courtesy if nothing else. I think it was punishment for losing the 2020 race. I'm happy for him, and I hope he will have the success he is looking for.
And offend Jonas who won the TDF and has proven to be the best GT rider? There is only one person in jumbo that is irreplaceable…and that is the current 2x tdf champ.
🤞👊🦋
@@luiscolon921He will be replacable after TDF 2024 🤣🤣🤣
@@urosvidovic4997 come back here after the TDF and update your post win or lose and I’ll Do the same. 😁
TBH, Inow want to see Roglic win the TdF. :D
How about Melbourne, Australia for your live show!
Sending Vingegaard to the Vuelta was probably already a way for Jumbo Visma to anticipate Roglic leaving the team. He could go for the overall win, but it would not be their only chance. It may also have been a test of their respective strength. This is why Roglic wanted to show off, felt the race should have been for him, and wanted it on his palmares to get a nicer contract with another team. I contrast, Vingegaard owed Sep Kuss a favour for the Tour, and was certain to have a spot in the team, so put team interest first.
It was almost unavoidable. They are two of the very best riders in the world with a heavy price tag and with the same ambitions. Jumbo Visma was struggling to find a new sponsor and other teams were struggling to find top riders. Next season will be really entertaining.
One more thing: Roglic may seem to have dominated, but sometimes the ball fell on his side of the net: the margin to Evenepoel in Catalonia was 6 seconds, LBL was a mistake by Alaphilippe, and I still don't know why Thomas lost this year's Giro and I believe that Evenepoel would have won had he not caught COVID. Not saying Roglic didn't impress, but he's not from a different planet like Pogacar.
My observation is that there is no second fiddle when it comes to the grand tours. I can't recall a team where there were "two leaders" that didn't turn out acrimonious. I think everyone agrees that it would be best for Roglic to move on.
off course it's not true that Kuss easily finished the job at the Vuelta!! He was just able to avoid getting dropped in the last a bit hard (not even tough) stages.
It was for marketing reasons that R. & V. were kept short. I don't see Kuss win anymore grand tours... Last year he already said explicitly that he liked his place as it was. (which is pedalling along, probably enjoying the scenery and being outside and once in a while assisting on the climbs) He wasn't born a winner and thus also doesn't like dying........
My personaly theory about the Vuelta is .. Jonas was okay giving the win to Kuss .. Roglic was not .. and maybe internally jonas was used as a "nuclear Deterent" to keep roglic from attacking kuss ,
so if he attacked .. jonas would have free reign to attack roglic in return
You forget stage 16 in the Vuelta where Jonas took off leaving Kuss and Roglic to mark the other riders, Jonas excuse for doing it was to honor another cyclist from JV not riding in the Vuelta. It was in this stage that he took the most time from Kuss and Roglic for the whole race. On stage 17 both Roglic and Jonas thought that Kuss would loose minutes after they dropped him but Landa saved him, keeping the lead by 8 sec. Roglic knew at that point that the best he could do was finish 3rd.
Yeah and I think he was very disappointed that Jumbo didn't keep their agreement... that he (and jonas) was free to race, and let the best man win the vuelta.
Jonas was the first to jump over a teammate at this years Vuelta. 🤔🦋
on the stage Kuss took the lead Primoz was overwhelmingly happy and came up to him to celebrate. Jonas did not and could barely look him in the eye in the cool down room waiting for the medals.
@@amandajane8227 jonas was sick as hell at that time...
Thanks for your insight.
👊🦋
Chris, just for fun. Jumbo- has just hired a new coach, Jacco Verhaeren. He comes from the SWIMMING world. They said that cycling can learn from other sports when it comes to conditioning and training.
Rologic is messing up. Jumbos development is world class. Why cant he settle for the giro? Not strong enough for the tour de france
I am trying to sympathize with Primož. Look, in the winter, he had shoulder surgery. After a difficult recovery, he started systematic training. He immediately stated the Giro and Vuelta double as his main goal. He intensified his form and trained excellently, without major upheavals. At the Giro, he had a rather awkward injury where he was stitched up for a deep wound on his side. In very bad weather, he had to conserve energy for the last important stage at Svete Višarje, which he convincingly won in the end. With this achievement, he confirmed his victory at the 2023 Giro. He then continued the season, the first one without major falls and injuries. He was looking forward to the Vuelta. Finally healthy and without injuries. He wanted the overall victory, he wanted to achieve his 4th win and enter the ranks of legends. To his regret, he stumbled a bit when Remco did not follow Kuss's attack on that stage. And so we were deprived of really interesting battles at this Vuelta. In the end, an excellent cyclist won, but not the best. I believe Primož was very frustrated in the middle of the race, as he was ready to fight for the win. I can only imagine how he felt when they decided to finally stop attacking. They are a special kind of competitors who strive for victories, that's why they have so many and they are not helpers. A helper has a different way of thinking. Therefore, it is almost irrelevant whether Primož was "eliminated" from the Jumbo team or if he had that desire himself. In my opinion, it's a combination of both options. But it will be all the more exciting in the next season. May it be successful for everyone, without falls and injuries, and we, cycling enthusiasts, will also benefit from it.
Chris, come to NYC!
Thanks Chris for another nice and insightful explanation. I completely agree that he was kicked out. (Ask their DSs). Primoz was really the king of JV got more wins than van Aert and Jonas together. He was machine for winning. I would really like to see Primoz win TDF and then see the face of Plugge when asked why they let the king go. 👊👊👊
In JV one GC leader position is to be occupied by Sepp. Well deserved!
And one comment more on drama....the feelings you had for Sepp/JV in Vuelta 2023 were the same as feelings in Slovenia in 2020 when Pogi won over Primoz (as there were team Slovenia racing).
As a longtime Rabo/LJ/JV supporter, I really hope Roglic wins the 2024 TdF.
Which won’t happen, he can’t even follow the wheel of Almeida and G.
Well you stated before the TDF 2023 that Roglic was the only real contender to Pogacar. Now we can see if that's true in the 2024 edition.
TdF 2023 when Jonas already showed he could beat Pogacar? Sure you aren't talking about 2021/22?
Awesome vid and glad you schooled those young donkeys - Everyone is a “top pro” from the couch
😂👊🦋🛋️
Chris, you’re most known for climbing exploits, but you’re right, many may not know about your speed on the American circuit. I saw you going so fast solo it defied the laws of physics, at the Athens Twilight. And Danny…not a vein, not a muscle, unassuming, gentle, rocket sled for hours.
He made that team really. Everyone signed to ride with him not the other way around. The fishmonger didn't bring in the crazy sponsor funding or the rest of the powerful team. That was primoz. Wout and company will all walk if not grossly over paid because of the lack of loyalty the team showed to the workers.
I for one can't wait to see four solid gc contenders in the TDF they will force Jonas to not hide out of the wind and race for crying out loud.
With two hilly but not crazy climbing ITT in this years race it doesn't favor Jonas at all in fact remco could easily run away with them.
Last years route couldn't possibly be more designed for Jonas unless he set the routs himself. This year is gonna be epic and for Jonas to have a real chance you will have to keep the workers in line no wout glory rides
While last years course was like tailormade for Pogacar with several stages like Puy de Dome and Colombier - the 24 editon looks more to favour Jonas who stated that this is the best of the 4 in his time. If you want to be a great GC-rider the art is, among others, to stay out of the wind - but I really dont recall Jonas taking less wind than for example Pogacar and Yates.
There is a difference between "kicked out off the team" and "he was denied (co-)leadership in the tour". The first is forceful and a bad act of disrespect. The second one is much more nuanced, has many more reasons behind the decision, including complex personalities, too many superstars in one team, career planing and team planing. At the end the visions don't overlap enough and both parties decide as adult people to make a change. I often agree with Chris Horner but in this case I still don't know what reasons lead to such a strong opinion. For me there is too much focus on a theory of very bad blood between the riders and team. I simply can't see enough evidence and therefore can't agree with Chris. Maybe the future will proof me wrong. And I am ok with that. :-) Thanks for your videos Chris! 🎉
Roglic had to leave in order to win a TdF, i think that says it all imho.
@@inkjazz I agree with the first half of your comment. 😀 There are opposing oppinions and overlapping interests. That happens all the time in every competitive sport. All the continuous speculation about the personal level and "bad blood" between people in the present or future is just boring now. We heard it many times in the last two months by some media. 😀
He wasn't even denied co-leadership, he refused it because he wanted sole leadership.
It was all about wanting to go to the TdF as sole leader so his team rides the way he wants.
@@MDP1702 Are you talking about the TdF next year? That's why he changed team. 😀
@@gs78798 both. Last year he went to Giro because he was only offered co-leadership at the tour. He probably hoped things would the other way around next year (or hoping that co-leadership in the Vuelta showed it could work out well). Since things didn't work out well, changing teams was the only thing to do, especially since Bora approached him with the offer after the Vuelta.
Why are there not long climbs in North America? The Rockies get up to 14,400 feet and the Alps are only 1000 feet higher or so.
Because major highways in the USA don't exceed 6% for climbs--they are designed that way
Supposedly Onion Valley Road in the Sierra compares favorably.
@@malencid Interesting - I didn't know that! But then shouldn't they be super long to still get all the way up there?
Probably to far away from the cities which brings up the cost of events and makes it hard for spectators to view the race. 🤔🥲🦋
Sepp Kuss won’t be allowed in an early break again. Also, who will be his mountain domestique?? If he goes for GC in the Giro, he won’t be able to co-lead or be Jonas’ super-domestique. To me it looks like Jumbo will crumble to pieces next season. We will see an epic battle between the Slovenians after they have worked together to drop Remco out of contention.
He wasn’t forced out, but he was forced to make a decision. PR is a leader and has clearly has the resume to back it. Vuelta España was a disaster. Once the media and public got heavily involved, it was over. PR goal is to win TDF. So he had go elsewhere. Letting the public decide a career was would be a no go for any athlete at his level.
Roglic in best shape can’t even follow the wheel of Almeida and G. He won’t even finish on the podium of the tdf, my guess is not even top 5 because he will crash out like always.
You need to come to New York 🙌🏻🙏🚴🥇
Always very good stories. One thing you forgot to mention is Why bring Jonas to the Vuelta. That should have been the moment Roglic realised he was on the way out. Also, maybe do a video sometime on the smartest and dumbest riders.
Because Jonas is their main future GC rider and already wanted to ride it last year but decided in the end not to? It was also already decided before the start of the season, so Roglic knew Jonas would go too. The main problem in the Vuelta was Sepp getting 3 minutes from the break, taking and keeping the jersey.
Too many ego's on JV, Primoz made the right move. Side note: American cycling is producing some solid talent. I was at the UCI World Championships in Glasgow this year, Kevin Vermaerke did very well (unitl he got a flat). McNulty looked good in the TT but took 4th. Had a chance to meet Colby Simmons (U23) and Brody McDonald (U23)as well. Chatted with a Serbian rider who raced in the USA in the 90's, he agreed that there was a drop off in American talent but the future looks better.
Don’t see link for tickets to Houston Nov 4 and is not on your calendar. Please add link to this stream please. Can’t wait to see you talk in person. Where, when, how?
Hi Doug. Sorry, Huston event was just canceled unfortunately as of the October 24th. 🥲🦋
Joint leadership means, i my mind - that the tactics for the two riders is quite similar. Imagine Jonas wanting the stages to be exhausting every day since he feels thats how he can crackTadej - and Primoz probably wanting it the other way around. If the course of the tour is as hard as the roumours tell I think Sepp will be needed 100% there and maybe get some kind of leadershiprole in the Vuelta afterwards
Time will tell, very soon. 👊🦋
Well shoot. I'm going to be in Houston on November 4th but I'm going to be working 😢😢
Got to pay the bills. 🥲🦋👍
First like 😉 Thanks for the insights. Was always curious if TJV got lucky that two domestiques were THAT good or did they have a clue they were overloading... 🤔
🦋👊 🏆👊🦋🦋🦋🦋👊🦋👊👊👊🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋
@@ChrisHornerCycling but no comment on my comment? (although yay me, I got a trophy! ;-))
This was amazing Chris, your personal insights really make the point!
Thanks 👊🦋
Let's see how Roglic looks without TJVs world-class 'nutrition.'
I commented on your stage 21 video 3 months ago after the announcement that Jonas is going to Vuelta that they will piss Primoz off. This is not 2022 dauphine anymore as Jonas won 2 the Tour 2 times since, they cannot be on a same team in a same race. Primoz is lighthearted and is joking, but you can see he was getting pissed off towards the end of Vuelta and was expressing him self more in the interviews. But maybe it is better this way everyone probably got what they wanted. How do you feel of Bora's team and support for Primoz vis a vis winning the big race in July?
Roglic was not pissed off that Jonas went to the Vuelta (that already was decided in december when they also assigned the Giro and TdF), rather that they were promised that they could attack eachother if the situation allowed it (like being ahead of everyone else). Kuss being up there and Jonas and the public supporting the idea he should be protected changed this, that imo was what really pissed him off.
Roglic also came into the Vuelta thinking he would win. That was a difficult pill to swallow letting Sepp win. I think Roglic was complaining about the situation and management at Visma decided to nudge him out. Likely Roglic has 2 more good years and he is done, so Visma needed to plan for the future. I think the Quickstep/Visma merger is what did it and I think that was a ruse to nudge him out, that Visma never intended to follow through with that, and likely the UCI might have stepped in and blocked it. Think about how Roglic would react, he has 2 other GC contenders on his team and the merger would give them another credible GC man. He would never race the TDF again under Visma. Well as that merger rumor was circling around, then the Roglic rumors began. Once we had official announcement that Roglic was going to Bora, then the merger is called off.
I don't know if Primož was pushed out, but it's clear he was only getting full team support in races missing Jonas Vingegaard.
Which makes sense because firstly Jonas is younger, has won the Tour two times and is way less likely to crash out of a race.
La Gazzetta dello Sport says TJV will try to win the Giro with Wout van Aert. He might skip the Tour de France in order to prepare specifically for the Olympics.
And actually... Primoz pretty much dominated the 2020 TdF. UNTIL the final TT.
True that. 💪💥🦋👍
Will Sepp do the Grand Tour triple again? Go for the Giro, assist at the tour and defend at the Vuelta?
After he was held back by a Domestique pushed by social media and incompetence ..no superstars can be held back. He left simple...
this mans hand movements lol
All the time moving. 😂👊🦋
Chris, will you be coming to the San Francisco Bay Area? 😉
Can you tell us about that following season @Chis Horner? Facing off against Prime Alliance.
Better for everyone
What about the age factor here ? 🤔For 2024 season...SK age 29 yrs...JV age 28 yrs...PR age 34 yrs...which has longer career potential ?
Jonas Vingegaard is 26, he will be 27 on December 10th, don’t know where you got 28 from.
So many talks about Primoz concerning Jumbo Visma. But does anybody thinks he really made a difference in those 2 years dominance of TJV in TDF? I think NOT! Specially in those 3rd weeks where his presence could have mattered.
i am, eversince 2021 convinced that when he is against Tadej, he's done and dusted as far as TDF is concerned.
Chris, how will the other teams react? I mean no-one else has a descent chance to win if all of the big four are on the start line. So would all the other teams basically skip GC and go for stages? ANyway, let us hope the big four all stay healthy and enter TdF in their best form and that Roglic doesn't hit the floor. Then we are in for the most entertaining TdF ever.
They had no chance of winning for four seasons already, they are kinda used to it.
Let’s hope so. I think the others would love just to slid between the big four if possible and would consider that a win. Others will target the Giro if they are smart. 😜👊🦋🔥💥
It would be fairytale, Kuss winning Giro, but how that can be done with 2024 route? 70km mostly flat ITT, shorter, more explosive stages, less climbing ... no Jonas and Primož to support him. Odds not exactly stacked in his favor. Field may be weaker, but it would be miracle if he wins.
Primoz said he had planned leaving Jumbo, way before the Vuelta. Reason? Tdf
I wonder if Plugge just felt so embarrassed after the 2020 TdF that they decided to not have him be a lead role (or have a back-up leader, like Jonas) for the Tour. Now that they are able to win the TdF with out Rolgic, his only chance is to move to another team. I bet he'll fulfill a really good leadership role for Bora and he'll have some good strategy against VLB! (Visma-lease-a-bike...)
Thanks for clearing up what VLB stood for. I was thinking, who or what is VLB. 😜👊🦋
@@ChrisHornerCycling haha i can't wait for the commentators to try that one LOL
As a newcomer to race world it was plain as day how they treated Primoz on the Netflix documentary, pretty sad scenes for him.
My 2 cents: it was a numbers game of Roglic’s age and money. Age factor, how many more years can Roglic race at this pace. Knowing that they sold high. With that money saved from paying him they can invest in their future albeit Jonas or the supporting cast. I feel Jumbo did a respect move in allowing him to go and win the tour with another team if he can which I want him to. I don’t see the bad blood as much as I see the number aspect. But I’m not an insider like you Chris. Great video.
Was wondering... he had to forfeit 3 million for the team change, but then he receives his Bora salary and it's kind of a wash?
Money for sure can play a strong reason why a rider leaves and why a team that is losing a sponsor would let a ride such as Roglic go. 🤔😳🦋😱
Agreed 👊
@@janefreeman995 He didn't really forfeit 3 million, Bora did. Moreover Roglic now is potentially the (2nd) best payed rider in the peloton, much more than he earned at TJV.
Kuss has nothing to do with Roglic leaving TJV, it's all about Vingegaard. Vingegaard attacked Kuss twice and Roglic always stayed with race leader. He was the one protecting him and making sure he can help him in case of Kuss getting into trouble. The problem was when he then decided he wanted to win the Angliru stage (which entire team said Roglic said he wanted to do even before the Vuelta started, he circled that stage for himself) and Vingegaard did NOT stay with Kuss, as he should have. Roglic wasn't going for the red, he was going for the stage win. He was way behind. In fact, when Roglic saw that Vingegaard was following, he slowed down, making sure that Kuss didn't lose the red. I am 100% certain that Vingegaard was hoping for that to have happened. Roglic and Kuss are friends and Kuss even has Slovenian roots. Roglic lost Vuelta on purpose, some of the comments I am seeing are crazy.
Make no mistake here. It was 100% Vingegaards descision to let Kuss win the GC. Roclic could only comply with that.
@@clausavanzini2579 No.
@trdi your guess is just as good as mine. But the fact is that it was Roglic who had to leave the team and not Jonas
@@clausavanzini2579 Roglic said they were talking about him leaving the team before the season started even. Basically the moment he saw that he was not in TdF squad.
Everything we get from within the team is that Jonas was talking about supporting Kuss for a while and Roglic about letting everyone fighting for the win (as was agreed upon before the Vuelta), with the team siding with Roglic untill the Angliru stage. Kuss also pointed towards Vingegaard being the one supporting his GC bid behind the scenes.
Wait … JV made Roglic pay $3MM to get out of his contract? Is that true? Wow, I hadn’t heard that.
Bora payed that. It is pretty normal for a rider that isn't out of contract that wants to leave. I don't know for the Netherlands, but in Belgium without a cancellation contract, he/bora could be forced to pay the equivalent of # years of contract left x the yearly salary through court.
There is no real reason for TJV not to ask it, they are losing their 2nd best GC rider and pointscorer (maybe 2nd best overall rider depending on WVA). So getting something back (especially when there are potentially financial difficulties) makes perfect sense.
You'd only not ask for something like this if you don't mind the rider leaving because they are "dead weight", like Groenewegen more or less was at TJV.