“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” - JRR Tolkien. It’s no wonder artists who took so much from their shared passion for Tolkien would create a fictional world which is both so realistic and inspired by reality while at the same time being divorced from it. In DE, allegory is completely abolished: when the game wants to talk about something of the real world, it uses the words that describe it in the real world. Communism is communism, that political movement in the game is explicitly the ideology we all know from the real world, not some half-assed parallel where the nature of it is left implied and all the names are changed just so you can wiggle your way out of any controversial position. Think of a show like The Legend of Korra which references real world ideologies like communism, anarchism and fascism but never dares to utter their names; or a more recent and more adult show like Arcane which willingly leaves a political vacuum at the center of the revolutionaries because giving them actual political ideas would be perceived as crass or too literal. Videogames share a space with animated shows and movies in the internet as many of them can be aimed at adults, but they can never truly escape the expectation that they should also be able to talk to a younger public, one that can’t be faced with terms or ideas outside of their grasp. Instead, I see great honesty in the way DE talks plainly about such political ideologies: calling them for what they are, only replacing what needed to be replaced in order to make them fit into a fictional world rather than the real one. So, Marx becomes Mazov, the hammer and the sickle become two horns and a star, but that’s about it, and I somehow find it more elegant than radically changing every aspect of it to the point that the ideology itself would be to communism itself what a doll would be to a real person. The objective always was to create a fiction that could rival reality itself, after all. This is why the idea that the pale was just an allegory for climate change always seemed silly to me; not just because the pale is very much different in the way it works to climate change, but also because that’s simply not the way DE tells its story. It’s precisely because the pale isn’t an allegory for anything that it can become an allegory for so much in the mind of the players; to me, it’s the single best worldbuilding element I have ever seen in fiction, an absolute masterclass in how to present such a terrifying concept that has no bearance whatsoever in the plot itself. Thank you, 41st Precinct, for the effort you're putting into this podcast. These interviews give so many interesting insights about the game and the team of artists behind it, I can't believe this is only part 1. Can't wait to watch the others too!
Amazing that Tuulik still seems to be radiating so much positivity about things, given his situation. I'm glad he's feeling good about the future of Elysium. I still have faith that we'll see a true sequel one day in the not-too-distant future.
I wish Argo and all the original creators only the best for… just hanging in there in the upcoming year. I know it doesn’t mean much, but this game and the fanbase has kept me going through a very tough time in my life and is very dear to me. Thank you for making me laugh, think and feel.
I'm glad to hear Argo being aware of Disco never really delivering on the promise of overleveling on skills being just as dangerous as underleveling them, it's one of the things you might not notice in your first playthrough but that become pretty evident on your later runs. I've played LISA the Undone before which was deeply inspired by Disco itself and they've got a way simpler system there but with the same basic idea; you explore too much, you start seeing places that might not be real, enemies that might not actually be there. You fight too much, you become too violent and less prone to talking. You talk too much, you become paranoid and start hearing people say things they might've not actually said. And it adds so, so much flavour to your own particular experience just by doing that, not only because it is inherently interesting but because it gives you new insight and development to the character you're playing. Really excited to see how they come to use these systems on whichever new project they decide to do in the future.
I saw this a bit with encyclopedia on my first run, sometimes harry just comes up with stuff that is unhelpful and leads to dialogue options that piss off the other characters
@@morisan42 oh yeah encyclopedia is one of the ones that actually kinds does it, stuff like Contact Mike is great. Even so you could potentially do more with it I believe
@@cia4u401 would be cool if some of them forced you into bad/funny red checks, like the one where harry can shoot himself. I'm unsure if that one is skill dependent come to think of it. But yeah more stuff like that would be awesome
there's some of this in the finished product, but not a lot. authority, pain threshold and half-light spring to mind as particularly bad influences when levelled up. electrochemistry too. when you pass some of the passive skill checks you get dialogue that adds flavour, but doesn't meaningfully change your route through the game too much.
@@hem9483 I understand not changing the route itself, that'd be just pure insanity, but the game never really punishes you for overspending on one particular skill the way you thought it would -- why are you able to just completely shut down a high electrochemestry so easily, for example? Or a high half light? These are parts of Harry that are inmediatedly destructive and very evidently that dominated a big part of his psyche before blackout but even if you bring them back you're never really forced to follow them like you'd expect from a unsatble and recovering (or not) addict.
God, now I feel even more for poor Garte. Love that guy- and can’t the vast majority of us relate to wanting to be good at something but being completely outclassed by friends/ other people… I’m NOT A BARTENDER, Harry! I MANAGE OTHER CAFETERIAS!
I couldn’t believe when I saw Argo tweeting about this podcast and much less when I saw its length. I am incredibly invested on the upcoming parts and also looking forward to the next guests! Amazing work!
2:10:44 this is one of the things I love about this game. Easy Leo was created just to have something before Evrat and even him is full of personality. and in all of his yapping you learn things about his wife, and Evrat and Elizabeth
man, the way you can tell you're listening to a DE writer due to the incredibly captivating way he talks and tells all the stories....... I'm so incredibly grateful for this episode and I can't wait for the next part!!!!! thank you and thanks Argo!
I fucking KNEW that katla was named after the dragon in bröderna lejonhjärta, but never had it confirmed before. Next he'll tell us that vaasa is named after some old king or something smh 🙄
The way Argo talks about Robert reminds me of the dynamic between Lestat and Louis in Interview With the Vampire. He also reminds me of how I used to think of my childhood best friend. I thought the world of him even as he was cutting me out of his life.
i'm at 1:12:15 and OH MY GODS YES! absolutely yes! i also feel characters as real people- when i tell a story, i don't feel like i'm creating a story- i'm rather telling a story of already existing people when this subconscious feeling was mentioned in the artbook - how they are striving to tell the most real version of Rene for example, as they have his dignity on the line - it felt real pleasant- something i experienced being mentioned somewhere
i'm at 1:09:00, so i don't have words for the full podcast yet, but it's incredible hearing Tuulik's stories :' ^) i think him and you for the talk o7 i read a lot about the early campaigns, as much as i could- and it's so nostalgic to be reminded of those deep-dives when i recognize the names of the characters it's truly a miracle, all of it the pale seemed to me to be related to collective memory- where if people forget about a thing, it stops existing, so it's nice to hear how close i was to the actual explanation my words about it from a few months ago when i was close to finishing the game: "so the pale is what is left of a place when no consciousness, no one that sensed it, is there to sense it anymore? when its forgotten by everyone that couldve thought about it?"
Thank you so much for this conversation! Although, even if I love Disco I would actually find it much more interesting to hear about Argo's writing process (even though you do touch on it, I'm just thirsting to hear his thoughts on the writing process itself)
Does anybody know what philosopher is he talking about when he mentions fear of emptiness & horror vacui @ 1:05:25 edit: nvm, it's pretty sure Emil Mihai Cioran for anybody else who may be interested.
It’s the same text from a title splash I think, you can make out “welcome to revachol” - I did mean to ask but it’s hard to remember everything on the fly :)
The Pale isn't an intentional climate change reference ... but its incredibly applicable. Its not really something a reader/player can be "wrong" about.
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.” - JRR Tolkien.
It’s no wonder artists who took so much from their shared passion for Tolkien would create a fictional world which is both so realistic and inspired by reality while at the same time being divorced from it. In DE, allegory is completely abolished: when the game wants to talk about something of the real world, it uses the words that describe it in the real world. Communism is communism, that political movement in the game is explicitly the ideology we all know from the real world, not some half-assed parallel where the nature of it is left implied and all the names are changed just so you can wiggle your way out of any controversial position. Think of a show like The Legend of Korra which references real world ideologies like communism, anarchism and fascism but never dares to utter their names; or a more recent and more adult show like Arcane which willingly leaves a political vacuum at the center of the revolutionaries because giving them actual political ideas would be perceived as crass or too literal. Videogames share a space with animated shows and movies in the internet as many of them can be aimed at adults, but they can never truly escape the expectation that they should also be able to talk to a younger public, one that can’t be faced with terms or ideas outside of their grasp. Instead, I see great honesty in the way DE talks plainly about such political ideologies: calling them for what they are, only replacing what needed to be replaced in order to make them fit into a fictional world rather than the real one. So, Marx becomes Mazov, the hammer and the sickle become two horns and a star, but that’s about it, and I somehow find it more elegant than radically changing every aspect of it to the point that the ideology itself would be to communism itself what a doll would be to a real person. The objective always was to create a fiction that could rival reality itself, after all.
This is why the idea that the pale was just an allegory for climate change always seemed silly to me; not just because the pale is very much different in the way it works to climate change, but also because that’s simply not the way DE tells its story. It’s precisely because the pale isn’t an allegory for anything that it can become an allegory for so much in the mind of the players; to me, it’s the single best worldbuilding element I have ever seen in fiction, an absolute masterclass in how to present such a terrifying concept that has no bearance whatsoever in the plot itself.
Thank you, 41st Precinct, for the effort you're putting into this podcast. These interviews give so many interesting insights about the game and the team of artists behind it, I can't believe this is only part 1. Can't wait to watch the others too!
Top comment right here. Hats off to you
Amazing that Tuulik still seems to be radiating so much positivity about things, given his situation. I'm glad he's feeling good about the future of Elysium. I still have faith that we'll see a true sequel one day in the not-too-distant future.
I wish Argo and all the original creators only the best for… just hanging in there in the upcoming year.
I know it doesn’t mean much, but this game and the fanbase has kept me going through a very tough time in my life and is very dear to me. Thank you for making me laugh, think and feel.
I'm glad to hear Argo being aware of Disco never really delivering on the promise of overleveling on skills being just as dangerous as underleveling them, it's one of the things you might not notice in your first playthrough but that become pretty evident on your later runs. I've played LISA the Undone before which was deeply inspired by Disco itself and they've got a way simpler system there but with the same basic idea; you explore too much, you start seeing places that might not be real, enemies that might not actually be there. You fight too much, you become too violent and less prone to talking. You talk too much, you become paranoid and start hearing people say things they might've not actually said. And it adds so, so much flavour to your own particular experience just by doing that, not only because it is inherently interesting but because it gives you new insight and development to the character you're playing. Really excited to see how they come to use these systems on whichever new project they decide to do in the future.
I saw this a bit with encyclopedia on my first run, sometimes harry just comes up with stuff that is unhelpful and leads to dialogue options that piss off the other characters
@@morisan42 oh yeah encyclopedia is one of the ones that actually kinds does it, stuff like Contact Mike is great. Even so you could potentially do more with it I believe
@@cia4u401 would be cool if some of them forced you into bad/funny red checks, like the one where harry can shoot himself. I'm unsure if that one is skill dependent come to think of it. But yeah more stuff like that would be awesome
there's some of this in the finished product, but not a lot. authority, pain threshold and half-light spring to mind as particularly bad influences when levelled up. electrochemistry too. when you pass some of the passive skill checks you get dialogue that adds flavour, but doesn't meaningfully change your route through the game too much.
@@hem9483 I understand not changing the route itself, that'd be just pure insanity, but the game never really punishes you for overspending on one particular skill the way you thought it would -- why are you able to just completely shut down a high electrochemestry so easily, for example? Or a high half light? These are parts of Harry that are inmediatedly destructive and very evidently that dominated a big part of his psyche before blackout but even if you bring them back you're never really forced to follow them like you'd expect from a unsatble and recovering (or not) addict.
God, now I feel even more for poor Garte.
Love that guy- and can’t the vast majority of us relate to wanting to be good at something but being completely outclassed by friends/ other people…
I’m NOT A BARTENDER, Harry! I MANAGE OTHER CAFETERIAS!
I couldn’t believe when I saw Argo tweeting about this podcast and much less when I saw its length. I am incredibly invested on the upcoming parts and also looking forward to the next guests! Amazing work!
Thank you for this. There is a severe shortage of Argo's beautiful words on the internet
2:10:44 this is one of the things I love about this game. Easy Leo was created just to have something before Evrat and even him is full of personality. and in all of his yapping you learn things about his wife, and Evrat and Elizabeth
man, the way you can tell you're listening to a DE writer due to the incredibly captivating way he talks and tells all the stories....... I'm so incredibly grateful for this episode and I can't wait for the next part!!!!! thank you and thanks Argo!
I fucking KNEW that katla was named after the dragon in bröderna lejonhjärta, but never had it confirmed before.
Next he'll tell us that vaasa is named after some old king or something smh 🙄
Kurvitz confirmed in a talk that Vaasa's name was stolen from a city in Finland, actually!
A city that was named after an old king
Incredible job with the interview, man. It will take me some time to get through everything, but I love it. Thanks to both of you
This is going to be one hell of a listen, bravo dude
Not even an hour in and this is already absolutely fascinating!! Thank you for the great work o7
The way Argo talks about Robert reminds me of the dynamic between Lestat and Louis in Interview With the Vampire. He also reminds me of how I used to think of my childhood best friend. I thought the world of him even as he was cutting me out of his life.
This might have the funniest implication
Thank you Argo for your work on my favorite game of all time
You’re killing it. Great work.
SUMMER ETERNAL!
You are doing gods work my friend, thank you for providing this amazing interview
Thanks a bunch for this interview
I mean, wow. This interview is just absolute gold
Thank you so much for this interview, it is AMAZING
Thank you! :)
i'm at 1:12:15 and OH MY GODS YES! absolutely yes! i also feel characters as real people- when i tell a story, i don't feel like i'm creating a story- i'm rather telling a story of already existing people
when this subconscious feeling was mentioned in the artbook - how they are striving to tell the most real version of Rene for example, as they have his dignity on the line - it felt real pleasant- something i experienced being mentioned somewhere
i'm at 1:09:00, so i don't have words for the full podcast yet, but it's incredible hearing Tuulik's stories :' ^) i think him and you for the talk o7
i read a lot about the early campaigns, as much as i could- and it's so nostalgic to be reminded of those deep-dives when i recognize the names of the characters
it's truly a miracle, all of it
the pale seemed to me to be related to collective memory- where if people forget about a thing, it stops existing, so it's nice to hear how close i was to the actual explanation
my words about it from a few months ago when i was close to finishing the game: "so the pale is what is left of a place when no consciousness, no one that sensed it, is there to sense it anymore? when its forgotten by everyone that couldve thought about it?"
thank* him and you
Thank you so much for this conversation! Although, even if I love Disco I would actually find it much more interesting to hear about Argo's writing process (even though you do touch on it, I'm just thirsting to hear his thoughts on the writing process itself)
Well then you’ll love the next parts :)
Thanks!
Thank you so much! Unbelievably grateful for the support 🫶
will you be interviewing robert kurvitz at some point? incredible video, looking forward to part 2!
That’s a question for Robert! :)
this is huge!! thank you so much
part 1? we're eating good bros
Argo explained the ZA/UM office and it’s LITERALLY the commercial district from the game
Thank you so much ❤
holyshit 6+ hours?!?
it's more!!! (bad at counting)
Does anybody know what philosopher is he talking about when he mentions fear of emptiness & horror vacui @ 1:05:25
edit: nvm, it's pretty sure Emil Mihai Cioran for anybody else who may be interested.
Very fun interview. What character Argo says he rewrote at @2:13:23? Can't really make it out
Pigs, the woman who buys the gun from Roy.
YEAAAAAAGH
Thanks!
YEEEEEES
i wonder what the picture behind argo is saying, something to do with Revachol
It’s the same text from a title splash I think, you can make out “welcome to revachol” - I did mean to ask but it’s hard to remember everything on the fly :)
@@The41stPrecinct haha i saw "
Precinct 41, Revachol"
Ahh that’s Spring ‘51 at the top, the time it takes place! Then I think it’ll say revachol something something
what is the song he;s talking about? that had to be replaced for copywright stuff?
I’m just going off memory so I could be wrong but I think it’s “Remarkable Diving Feat”
@@The41stPrecinct thank you!!
GURDI-BALL IS LIT
will this eventually also be on spotify?
At some point yes but need to work out how I want it to be split etc
2:37:25 Kitty!
@45:40 he's just like me fr
1:35:06 Self Chiller :)
:D
So the pale is like the neverending story.
That’s exactly what I thought too!
omg he's so sweet
The Pale isn't an intentional climate change reference ... but its incredibly applicable. Its not really something a reader/player can be "wrong" about.
The great thing about disco is they allowed plenty of room for interpretation so yeah, by all means, take what you need from it :)