What’s New in Smart Panel Technology - 2023
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.พ. 2023
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People should be really carefull with this SPAN stuff. If they go out of business, there will be no mobile apps and no servers to turn on and off your things. Making it a dumb expensive electrical panel. It's also a security risk to have someone (a server) able to control your home, I really hope they offer some "local" only controls and apis to be able to use the panel without their fancy mobile app.
I kind of agree with you about Span, but there are other smart panels on the market like Leviton. They have been around for ages and they are extremely established in the electrical game. I thinks Span's biggest problem is going to be cost. The unit is $4,500. To expensive for the average family.
Local control would be the only way I would consider this
I had the same thought. It's one thing if someone's smart switch bricks because the company goes out of business, but it's another thing if someones $5K smart panel becomes inoperable because SPAN goes out of business or abandons the old product. For technical people, adding local APIs and local control mitigates this (and the security) problems to a degree, but that isn't a viable solution for most people.
Someone else mentioned Leviton, I don't know if they have local control or not, but just because you trust the company to stay in business, doesn't mean you can trust them not to loose interest in their current line of smart devices.
Great conversation here.
I was wondering, how is it connected to the internet during a power outage? Does it have LTE?
I wonder how many assumptions their algorithms make during an outage… first push notification to the customer, “power is down!”
Curious how accurate it is
Great point! It's unfortunate to see other industries following the same proprietary path towards obsolescence, abandoned products, with failed companies rendering equipment useless. It's time for a serious discussion about open systems, open API and standards to prevent this from happening.
CJ is obviously enthusiastic but needs to allow the supplier to speak about the product
CJ over talks the people he's interviewing. I like that he's excited but he should have just talked about each product himself instead of having the people he's interviewing just stand there shaking their heads in agreement
He also needs to understand his audience. The majority of people watching this channel can understand technical terms and ideas.
Haha yah let the man talk about his product.
Notes taken 😊
You did well but if you ask a question let them answer. I have watched Joel's videos and he knows the answers you were asking. Just slow it down a step or too and you will be great. Look forward to seeing more from you soon.
@@CJ_Electric we eagerly await next year's show 😁
As a student of cybersecurity, I am constantly gaining a deeper understanding of the trade-offs between convenience and security in the context of smart devices. One of the challenges I have identified is the long-term support provided by manufacturers for these devices. Specifically, there is a question of whether companies such as SPAN will continue to provide updates to their older panels when new panels are released. Currently, most residential electrical panels are not connected to the network, thus rendering them immune to cyberattacks. However, this situation may change in the future as the number of connected devices continues to grow.
Exactly, good luck in your studies
They won’t or they will be out of business.
I'm always amazed how many people can't wait to make their home networks easier to hack for almost no gain.
I'm with you, I have been very turned off of "smart" technology the more I learn of the massive risks that come with them in regards to privacy and security.
What has happened in the past is that legacy hardware gets reverse engineered by a community of supporters. But what we need is End-of-life Legislation so that when a manufacturer no longer provides support for a product, it goes open source.
Given that people own their homes for decades while companies come and go, smart breaker panels should be based on open industry standards. Perhaps using local Modbus control, with cloud-integration being an optional add-on.
Why were the people being "interviewed" even there? It was basically just CJ doing a monologue.
what about hacking on span? having a source from outside the house take over the unit. This is something I am cautious about because house will be on batteries with backup generator.
So many "smart" products all based on chips, wifi and apps. What happens when A) chip production stops, B) ISPs collapse and C) apps aren't updated?
Then I expect we'll have bigger problems - like getting electricity.
These devices are useful if you live in an area with a poor electric grid and use backup generators and/or batteries and solar power. Security and continued support would be a major concern.
I can't tell you how many hours I have spent wanting to look at an app for my electrical panel. I'll be out at dinner with friends and I can't even focus on the conversation because all I can think about is "I wish I could remotely turnoff the circuit to my toaster" or "I wonder how many amps my fish tank is pulling right now" or "When is Jennifer going to stop talking about that mole she had removed so we can move on getting dessert ordered." This stuff will be a game changer for me.
I'm sensing your sarcasm.
SENSE has what you're looking for. Wire it into the panel and off you go - for much less money. Smart breakers sounded interesting to get notifications if a circuit is drawing too much but overall this stuff was expensive and I've not ever needed to remotely flip a silly breaker.
In the process of getting Span certified now, took too long to be able to install in the current passive house were doing. looking forward to trying them out.
Don't' put this stuff in your house it can be controlled and shut down remotely if you do something certain entities deem problematic.
Thanks for the interview, Matt! Your channel does so much benefit to builders and contractors everywhere. I’ll be in Texas in June. See ya then! 😊
Video started great! Smart panels in IBS 2023. 10mins on Span, 3 mins on Eaton smart breakers, then 3 mins on hafele cabinet lighting, and 4 mins on Halo lighting... Meanwhile you can see a power related booth in the Span video behind CJ that says smart energy and power systems. I was fully expecting him to walk right over to the Savant booth but he went to Eaton. Then didn't go back to any smart panel products...
So, for the Span panel, what happens when the company web servers go down? What happens when my WAN connection goes down? I know I'm screwed when the power goes out at my house, unless I install a battery pack or generator. But if I do have a battery pack or generator and I can't talk to the company servers for some reason, am I still screwed? And what happens when Span goes out of business?
I work for AWS, so I'm all-in for the cloud and the data -- For normal operations. But I'm also all-in for backups. And for continuing to operate in the face of multiple failures, including when the cloud is no longer accessible.
A quicklink wafer is MORE than a traditional wafer. Even though it doesn't have a driver, box and like 50% less components. Their profit margin is insane on these
Lots of great stuff out there. As the #1 electrical contractor channel on TH-cam, I don't think electricians take advantage of all the. Add on and residual income there is out there by installing smart panels, low voltage, solar etc.
I would love to see SPAN come out with a larger panel. 32 spaces is too few in my opinion and ultimately why I just went with SquareD for now main and sub panel replacements. The price is really steep for a panel that doesn't fit my 1977 200A circuits even with the dedicated sub panel in the garage.
I'm pretty lost as to who their target market actually is, as a fully electric home would have more than 32 circuits, and smaller homes likely have a smaller budget. I guess extremely custom/large homes in wine country in CA might just go for two panels but, the SPAN app has a really clunky multi-panel integration setup (treated as different homes entirely). I don't know, just hoping they polish it all up in a few years and don't go out of business.
32 panels is too small. Leviton recently released a 63 slot panel.
Shneider is the solution
@@mattbrew11 I've seen some previews on their offerings.
Let the rep speak more please.
If I have an Eaton panel (which I do) why would I buy a Span panel when all that is required it buying new Smart Breakers for my existing Eaton panel? I sure hope the Eaton Smart Breakers work on my panel board from 1995. I just emailed Eaton to see if it will work for me.
Very cool Dave. Agree if that works it’s a killer upgrade. Let us know what you find. Maybe I need to fly to Denver for a video??? Would LOVE to see your current camera setup.
@@buildshow that would be fun! I am looking into them now, they are a bit pricey but maybe I will install a couple of them to see how good the software is. I am trying to find reviews on these breakers on YT but I am not finding any. It looks like I can order them from Home Depot.
I just heard back from Eaton support after I sent them a pic of my panel and they said, "you can't use a smart breaker because that is a CH load center with 3/4 inch wide breakers. Currently, we are only doing the smart breakers in the BR and BAB (1 inch wide). I apologize for the inconvenience."
It would be nice to know how/where I can get those recessed adjustable shelf lighting systems. I can't find anywhere.
I just starting watching this electrician a couple of days ago 😅
Looking forward to the interview with Joe at Span 😂
And eaton integrating the surge protection into the panel is getting pretty common. Now they offer them in a two-breaker size square that installs like a breaker as well. And now that whole home surge suppression is required by NEC, will likely see more and more panels start to have it as a feature that's part of the panel itself and not requiring you to take up two breakers just for a protection device
I like they way Leviton has integrated the Surge suppression right into big breakers.
Very cool stuff and the build show
13:05 Eaton also has a double pole whole panel surge protector as well. But it's cool that this one is already part of the panel. It won't take up 2 slots.
There are plenty of double pole surge protectors that allow connection to a downstream load. So it uses 2 slots but those 2 slots are used just like any other breaker.
There are class 1 or type 1 surge protector that get installed at the power meter before the primary panel.
Can any of these smart panels also handle low voltage/POE?
what was the vendor for the recessed in cabinet lighting?
Can DYIers buy SPAN panels? Or do you have to be an authorized installer?
How does SPAN work when you have two breaker boxes? One main and another in the basement
Thank you Matt.
Leviton has smart pannel with smart breakers and a lot more. Should put links for what was showcased in the video.
They did but they’re using a proprietary parts. What makes Span more user friendly is that you can basically use any common component in the market.
Hard Pass $4500, some startup, require certification, even to change a breaker, smart devices IOT (data to internet) and some app, has ownership transfer. Could be a disaster in 10 years, app gets outdated, Matter standard (vs current cloud), etc etc etc. Way too expensive.
only suggestion to cj... let the person finish their answers.
Note taken, I appreciate the feedback
Do they ever put links for the products they are talking about?
I installed one for a customer that insisted. I was disappointed. It has a built in transfer switch which only works with 2 inverters. (Solar Edge and Tesla). Almost all of my Solar Edge inverters have failed and had to be replaced. So, I am reluctant to install those now. I like microinverter based systems. But, the transfer switch in the Span panel wont work with that. It could if SPAN chose to program the panels for that. Also, the SPAN panel doesn't have enough space at the top for a retrofit directly into the back. You have to come in from the top which creates all kinds of problems. They could have just made the panel 2 inches taller to allow that. Also, 32 circuits get used pretty fast.
What about the Leviton Smart Load Centers? Been out a while, company been around a long while, already make many great smart devices.
Christ how much coffee did this guy have before filming?
Only a few:)
Love it!
with the Span and Eaton stuff. I think a cool integration would be using the eaton breakers in the span panel
my sense is that it's two different paths to the same end goal - so you shouldn't need both.
@@jesses0 ah. sorta seemed like it was both could be used together
@@sabregunner1 I mean, they might be compatible, I thought both could measure load and turn off breakers as their primary features. My understanding is it's mostly a question of smart panel + dumb breakers or smart breakers + dumb panel.
@@jesses0 that could be the way it is. thanks for clarifying
What kind of security are all of these panels putting on their wifi? Are the apps that communicate with the panel created with a built-in VPN?
SPAN sounds like my "smart tv" that has turned into just another TV as its proprietary hardware specifc apps are no longer supported, hence I am back to using a free roku to run apps like Netflix, TH-cam, etc. Smart breakers sound like a better idea.
If you're looking for something smart but a little cheaper then span Leviton just came out with a smart panel not to long ago but it does use proprietary breakers so that's a down side. Still pretty spendy but reasonable considering the smarts. It's the first load center they've ever made so I was gonna give it a couple years and see if it lasts.
Tesla wall connector allows you to “throttle” the load to the circuit…it doesn’t just run “flat out” unless you have it installed to the required 60A breaker. Also, there are electric on demand water heaters that utilize 3 50A breakers or 150A total which is more than double what current home EV chargers draw from home wall connectors…the chargers are built into the EV themselves.
CJ! Nice!
Looks good.
I own a very large solar business. The absolute best choice for solar currently is Enphase microinverters and they are not in sync with SPAN. Enphase solar > span. In 2023 if you are even debating solar in the future, get the new Schneider smart panel instead. No bs. And if you want the most badass, real time adjustable EV OUTLET (chargers are actually on the EV itself) get one that wants a 100A main breaker for future proofing
I wouldn't put anything on my home but Enphase at this point. I know Sol-Ark has their 2 and 4 panel MI either available now or coming but reliability > cost savings. I'd need to see them in the field for a while.
@@hmurchison8123 Sol Ark hybrid is great for ground mounts and we use them a lot in those situstions and for people that are actually off grid full time. Otherwise Enphase is undefeated. Im getting a batch of the brand new Sol Ark micros in this quarter and we are currently deploying some Aptos 4-1 micros but nowhere near enough data for me to make them available to gen public. Their solar modules however are some of the best we’ve ever tested
@@mattbrew11 I've checked out the Aptos stuff in passing. Looks solid. What states are you covering Matt? I used to commission for a Sunpower dealer in Arkansas . In a year we swapped maybe 7 IQ level Enphase micros and a handful of the older M series stuff. I'm sold on their reliability.
@@hmurchison8123 CA, NV, NM, CO, OK, TX, NC, SC, FL
That's pretty cool
does the span panel function as a bms?
No.
No
Span is great, but does it work without being connected to the internet ? The beginning of the video the guy is talking about a power outage situation ?
I am from Oregon and my PGE will increase 17% January 1, 2024, with the minimum wage being $15.40 in a two bedroom apartment it’s $1800 per month
With a currently PGE monthly payment of $600 per month we definitely need to look for some thing more affordable for our family
What is the name of the company that produces the removable LED strips?
What is the model or the Hafele line for those removable shelves lighting with the strips? My supply house can not find them?
Wish you have added a link to each company he talked about
Can you simply put the product links of the items shown in the description? You can't always catch what the presenter is saying. For example, the LED lights with the contact points in the cabinet. No idea what he says.
With Eaton and Leviton smart breakers. They can remotely shut off but can not turn back on remotely.
The smart breakers are really kinda sad, the last I looked all they can do is remotely trip the breaker, not turn it back on. The remote trip didn't cost them anything to add, beyond an additional wire because the functionality is already built into a GFCI breaker.
Then they are hooking that remote trip up to the cloud. I don't have any confidence that these companies can be bothered to cloud connect things like this with even minimal security. How long before some remote hack trips all the breakers for lulz?
I have a strict requirement for IoT things, they must have a published local API and be designed such that a majority of the functionality works without an internet connection. That way when they give up on the cloud service the item has a chance of continuing to work and you don't have to trust that they bothered to secure their product.
Sorry, I cannot justify $4,500 for a 200 AMP panel. The Leviton 200 AMP Smart panel gets you some of the SPAN features in a "white" panel for around $400. With wireless monitoring with statistics and the ability to turn off circuits remotely. It does not have all the features of SPAN. So decide if that's worth #4,000 to you. It has the nice feature of wiring up before you insert the breakers. Check it out and spend that $4K on an extra Tesla Powerwall battery.
Aww .. y'all went to the Halo booth and didn't say hi to the StudPack guys...
I did see them!
Be SMART, choose an old school panel and enjoy long term reliability with the possibility of finding parts years down the road.
Is Span certified in Canada? Is there any representation in Canada? Looks interesting. I would welcome any answers.
Let the reps talk
Is SPAN available in CANDA ?
I read about a company called Atom Power in North Carolina that's making smart breakers and EV chargers. Their breaker technology is actually controlled with solid state electronics, and it's a lot more capable than the stuff from Span. I think Span just gets more marketing buzz because they're in California and they copied their product style from Tesla, which copied their product style from Apple.
How about a Span box with Eaton smart breakers?
Smart Panels … w/Permanent Alexas?
No ffff’n way
💵💵💵💵💵💵💵💵
🛎️thanks
I'm a big tech geek but, I don't think I need to know how many watts my living room lights are using.
Watt! Are you nuts? We all need to know everything at all times!
Welcome to the 21st century.
@@MaxMBJ LOL 😂
The REAL smart panel for a house is the one that you put in and it just plain works for 50 years without having to spend more money on it replacing junk breakers, software updates, failed terminations, burned up bussing, broken plastic parts, and of course just plain old obsolescence. Install a Square D QO panel right up front and it’ll never cost you another penny unless you make changes. I like to see all the new stuff but in reality 99% of this stuff is just fads that come and go pretty quickly and replacement parts get scarce real fast once the newest thing comes out and your system goes out of production.
It’s cool and all, but it’s not $4,500 cool. If you want a smart panel that’s solar ready, get a Leviton. I have one, but didn’t pay for the smart breakers, but if you wanted them you could get the panel & 20 smart breakers for around $1,500. That panel is rock solid.
how about links to the companies you talk about.
it was all about the guy talking. He likes to talk, to talk over others, to hear his own voice. so it seems.
Appreciate the interview, but it would be great to give them the opportunity to pitch it instead of hear about the interviewers experience. Hard to get much from this type of forum.
On the subject of Smart Panels, ask yourself these questions.
If the company goes out of business will you still be able to use all the features?
How secure is their system?
What is their privacy police / TOS?
Are they selling your data?
Finally the most important question, are the smart panels open source?
Because I guarantee you wont be able to access the panels remotely if they go out of business, they will get hacked, there is no privacy and the company will sell your data.
There's nothing smart about a smart panel.
HYPE BEAST!!!!
The first segment should have been its own
wago connectors fail? news too me.
The dude in the coat is the spirit animal of John Ralfio on parks and rec.... He should not be in front of a camera lol
No lock on the Span door? I want a fancy lockable door.
SPAN needs to off the panel with an integrated automatic transfer switch to support islanding for solar and generator sources.
The first generation Span had an integrated ATS but they pulled it to get the costs down.
I see this as something someone will install, play with for a couple of weeks and then never touch again.
The least thing I want or need is to be getting push notifications from my circuit breakers. 😊
What about the ability to use your EV to backfeed power to home ?
"Start with Span, build from their." If that isn't their slogan, it should be.
I've been waiting for TWO years up in Canada to get a SPAN panel. Would kill for one, but I'm not sure what the delay is in getting certified for Canada.
Kinda crazy it took this long
CJ channeling a bit of chris farley and zach galifianakis 😂. love it, genuine guy, learned a lot! thanks
CJ Rocks!
‘Lectric GEEKS 😱
After talking about how the SPAN panel has "so much intelligence built into it that it surpasses everything else on the market" (minute 1:10) you later say about the Eaton panel that "hits a mark that no other company actually has right now" (minute 10:40). Why not compare the two panels and discuss what is better about each one, what features are missing from each one and in what situations should you pick one over the other?
Good video. :)
3K for the panel then you have to get it installed. On a new house I think it would be sweet to have.
Yeah, CJ, honestly I only made it halfway through as you never let the person who was actually, you know, selling stuff talk to his expertise.
The common thread (threat) is security. They need to follow a Victron model, local control, MQTT, etc. if you want to opt into cloud, so be it but I’m not held hostage by a closed system. I can’t see being bent over for this price point either. Leviton isn’t better (you can turn off a breaker remotely but it needs a physical reset - DOH!)
Reminds me a lot of the IoT situation, the S in IoT stands for security.
Exactly, All of my PLC work I leave air gap for that reason.
It's a good product they just need to sell it from a different angle on the customer's end.
4:05
11:00
12:30
so I do landscape lighting and those screw on connections are the worst. They fail all the time and they are a never ending source of frustration.
Holy crap watching that first interview was so painful 🤦🏼♂️ CJ bro let’s let the guy talk about their product. Watch the reps face when he can’t get a word in edgewise 🤦🏼♂️
let the salesman sell the products dude... just ask questions. we don't care how much you think you know.
Keep it simple, these things are just more things to go wrong and not be able to work on or fix them when the company changes stuff or disappears..
If I REALLY wanted a SPAN product...that salesman would convince me to buy something else.
Would have learned a lot more if CJ would let the vender talk.
I had a question regarding next gen power installation, with the increase of on house power walls and electric cars, wouldn't the possibility of fire increase? if so wouldn't it be smart to install the power bank and car charging system off the home structure in it's separate system and umbilical connected to the home power system? To Ensure the Structural safety and keep the possibility of Fire away from your house? if it takes 6000+ gallons of water to control a Electric car Fire, Your house is toast if something goes wrong.
Lithium Phosphate batteries themselves are some of the most stable battery chemistry available and most ESS vendors are either compliant or seeking UL9540 certification which deals with fire hazards. This is addition to contemporary electrician practice of utilizing over current protection in multiple areas. Modern homes may be the safest ever built
@@hmurchison8123 POWERWALLS ARE NOT LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE. I don’t know whos lying to people about that but its absolutely false. Want a safe chemistry? Get enphase or something that is
@@mattbrew11 Yup they are Nicke Manganese. Solid battery chemistry (proven) but it can't match the cycles of a Lithium Phosphate system and it's not as fire safe. When people say "I want a Powerwall" I just tell them them do a bit deeper research. Really the battery is going to be dependent on the Inverter and which systems it supports Closed Loop. Enphase stuff is good.
CJ you're being deceptive when you say you still don't have $10,000 upgrade. If your service only can handle 30 amps a 1,000 dollar charger won't change that. Having just bought a stage 2 charger for 1/3 the price I can as a customer can change the available amperage in seconds( 15-50). Also my car has software that controls the charging speed, I have it set that @ 8 pm it slow charges tell 6:15 when it auto warms and I head to work.
I'd add that $10k must be the wine country custom home in CA price because, I just upgraded to 200A and it was half that after I upgraded things beyond the basics in SE Michigan.
Thanks for the feedback! The $10,000 is only an example, it can vary drastically by region, or utility company requirements.
I agree, regulating the charge parameters can be done within the vehicle, but it’s hit or miss how easy it is from manufacturer. (Ask the ford lighting guys) it isn’t as seem-less as Tesla.
Regardless, it seems to me that managing all this from one app (in this example span) is in advantage… for example being able to control individual loads… like… maybe your hot tub doesn’t turn on, or both cars don’t charge, or your heat pump doesn’t turn on at certain times when you are limited with the size of your electrical service and the amount of electrical demands you might have. (Or quite possibly it’s not even an option for some home
Owners to increase their electrical service size) this is why products like this excite me. (Maybe too much sometimes)
Again as most products, Span isn’t for everyone, and there is no reason for me to be deceptive. Sorry if it came across this way! It’s all very new technology and can be useful for some, while not for others. Thanks for watching, I’m always here is you want to chat!
@@CJ_Electric the average customer doesn’t have a clue how load shed. Only a minor percentage of people will truly track their usage and try and cut back. When they come home from work they want to charge their car, cook some dinner, catch up on laundry, and then relax in the hot tub. If you shut down the hot tub for 3 hours the temp will drop and have no circulation. That in turn will cause the heater to run longer regaining proper temp. By shutting down the dryer that just causes laundry to backup. Now if The person can’t cook dinner because the car is charging they would most likely be upset. And if you turn the ac compressor off at the same time… I know I wouldn’t want to be in that house. Yes this is the extreme examples but again, the average person wants conveniences at the same time. I would rather spend the money on upgrading the feed into the house with either a 200-320amp service. Technology and software changes so fast that there is no way these “smart” devices and panels will last. It’s planned obsolescence. The manufacturers can’t make money unless they get rid of things. Electronics is grate for some things but not everything. After 30 years being an electrician, I have seen and installed some amazing electrical systems. Some have lasted since I installed them, and some were replaced in just a few year. Classic example was a restaurant had a dimmer system installed and only lasted 3 years. The manufacturer discontinued it for a different version. To program the different scenes you had to save it onto a 3-1/2 disc. The drive went out, couldn’t get a new drive. Ripped out system and installed manual dimmers because the system was to difficult for the workers to dim the lights. That’s why I try and keep things as simple as possible. The average customer just wants the lights on and things to work at their convenience.
I’m in the process of upgrading from a 125 to a 320 at my house. With future potential EV’s, a desire for a hot tub, and converting from gas to electric heat, stove, water heater, and dryer (only if forced to) my service requirements won’t meet that. I truly think that all electric for everything is not the best route to be taking. Look at the south with the ice storms and tornadoes. Electrical grids go down and take sometimes weeks to rebuild. I really think a hybrid approach would be a much better option to start with allowing the infrastructure to get built up properly and in place before more load is thrown onto it. The more electronic products that require web based support requires massive data centers to support and power consumption in the home. All this new stuff the just keeps adding more strain on the grid. Just think your fancy electrical panel with everything shut off and unplugged will be wasting electricity trying to monitor the panel and then waste power connecting to the net. Just keep adding more phantom loads. Sorry, it’s just another wasteful product.
@@jaredledvina4578 he’s clearly referring to a service upgrade not a main panel