Interesting presentation Sam. I was forced to use the old FBI load in the early ‘80s to rescue a hostage in a motel lobby. We were slightly more than two arms lengths apart and the round dropped the suspect, allowing the hostage to get away unhurt. The suspect lived after being hit center chest, neck & leg, to do a long stretch in prison. For your viewers I was using my issued 4” Model 15 S&W. Unfortunately these rounds are out of stock almost everywhere today.
Thanks for sharing your interesting experience. I think some people would be interested in your experience which would probably translate to the Buffalo Bore standard pressure in a 4" and their +P in a 2".
My old dept issued 158 gr Nyclad +p SWCHP for those carrying .38s (at least most of the time ... State Bid prices could overrule good ballistics). I appreciate you sharing your experience (and, of course, great work!). Most of us only used .38s for BUGs/ODGs and of the few who carried a wheel gun, the only thing shot that I recall was a truck. The truck was, unsurprisingly, not impressed ... until the tire flattened and the rim shattered. ;) Anyway, Sir, well met!
Thanks for sharing that, partner. You saved a life that day. I do not imagine that your boy bounced right back after that. Knocked the wind out of his sails.
Thanks @Old Cop so this one very close range what about your other OIS? Did you use one hand or 2 on revolvers and do you remember front sight clearly or point shooting??? Thanks
@@DanTheWolfman Both of my other OIS were in the dark w/my .38, no night sights then. One was a break in at a liquor store after dark & the other was on a dark outside parking lot, November, 1974. Three suspects held up a liquor store and decided to shoot it out w/us rather than be arrested. In the aftermath one officer was shot but recovered (no vests then), one suspect was killed, one was arrested seeking treatment for a GSW at a hospital the next day & the third bad guy surrendered at the scene. I don’t remember if I used one hand or two until the last OIS in the motel lobby, and then it was two hands. As an aside I stay out of liquor stores today but at 75 I’m not much of a drinker.
My absolute Go-To Round for carry, the Non +p 158gr FBI load by Buffalo Bore! I carry them in all my revolvers with a short barrel. As a vintage revolver guy it helps with the authenticity as well. Great video and thank you for sharing.
Couldn't agree more. I thought maybe it was time to move my .38 SD load choice into the 21st century, and have been going through all the old test vids. After seeing this one, I think I'm sticking with "the FBI load".
Yes. Asked the last old timer that still carried 38S. He was an experienced home loader. I was expecting he carried 21st century tech in his J frame. Cylinder full of soft lead 158g Wad cutters. Fbi loads, and soft lead ball were at top of his list. I thought it was a fud call. Turns out he knew what he was talking about.
900+fps(2bbl.")and 1000+fps(4"bbl.") with a 158gr. projectile, is plenty of power for a self defense situation, with good expansion and penetration also.
Choices in the old days were limited but not all of them were crap. .38 is very underestimated round and will do well with a decent load, even if it’s old school.
Shot Buffalo Bore +P in my Taurus 38 Special model 85. That stuff is the power of some companies 357 or close to it. It shook the pistol out of timing. I had to send it to Taurus to have it repaired. Use a Smith or Ruger if you want to shoot BB 38+P, Brutal!!!
Thanks for your work Sam. I know it must be a lot of work putting these videos together, shooting, editing, etc. You do a good job and I REALLY APPRECIATE the revolver info and ammo demonstrations, ballistic tests. I am revolver nut and mostly 38 special/ 357 so videos like this are right up my alley in interest. Take care-MN
I was really impressed with velocity out of the 2" barrel. These are really serious defense loads. Thanks for another really well done video, really worth while information.
That's pretty awesome 38 special performance, With modern commercial loadings 38 is usually a very underwhelming non expanding round, But this is really nice.
Back in the day I tested various .38 loads from my 2" j frame. All of the big 3 158+P failed (Remington did the best due to the lead being softer. I didn't have a chro, but the Winchester penetrated deeper with very little expansion, the Remmy was second and the Federal finished last. Decades went by and I happened to get some of the BB and my good friend "the Brassfetcher" tested them in gel and got 1006 fps. The bullet expanded very well and penetration was pretty good too. He also tested their 125+P and got 1235 fps from the same gun.
Thank you Sam! I asked of this a bit back and you delivered! I carry by policy a .38 Spl chambered revolver on my security retirement gig and the +P load is in my speedloaders and Model 67 S&W. Oh and Shhh! My BUG Model 49 Bodyguard!
Thanks, that was a good test and I agree with your conclusion; the standard pressure cartridge may have the advantage at the end of the day. First, you have to have the gun with you. Second, you have to be able to hit the target. THIRD, you need to make follow-up shots.
that was wonderful expansion for both 4 and 2 inch barrels.ive shot and tested jhp factory ammunition and my reloads and many fail to get close to that expansion. been doing this 43 years and that's awesome.papa wishing you well.
Your timing is impeccable. I just got a S&W 442 J-frame. I’ve been considering the Buffalo Bore short barrel along with the Underwood +P. Thanks for the great ballistic knowledge as always.
that buffalo bore 38+p is giving you roundabouts the same velocities that the federal American eagle 357 soft points were giving you, witch begs the question is buffalo bore loading their ammo way too hot or are the ammo companies pud loading their revolver ammo ???
.357 Magnum loaded right give 800 ft lbs in my 686, so ammo companies are down loading. That being said, the .38+P is lead, so you can get 100 FPS+ vs a jacketed bullet with the same powder charge. I don't believe these rounds are over pressure at all
I’ve got the plus P in my little Taurus. I figure if I ever have to use the thing the first shot will get it done as it’s going to be close quarters plus I’m a pretty big guy
I have yet to find a bad Buffalo Bore round. You get what you pay for, you will see more consistency with them just by looks, also by accuracy and velocity. Packaging is perfect too.
I’m really impressed with what you were getting out of the BB ammo. I’m shooting primarily .38spcl. I’ll have pick up some of these. Great video, thanks.
Great video and commentary, as usual. Have been wanting to see an evaluation of these. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with either of those in a "normal" street encounter. Thanks so much.
Thanks for the video. I have a Smith model 65 3" and use the BB +P for self defense. A lot hotter and energy than the SGD .357 mag. 135 gr short barrel. Looks like the standard pressure BB might be a better choice for follow up shots.
Snuby 38 looses about 25% in velocity and power. Your demonstration shows that the +p in a snuby increase the power of the snuby up to the power of a standard 38 in a 4 inch barrel. Therefore this was a very informative presentation. Looking at the muzzle rise in the snubby +p I saw the muzzle flip up very high and you did recover from it exceedingly well. Good shooting.
Awesome to see this test. Some time back, I communicated with RimRock bullets about this very bullet. They are the ones that make this and some other cast bullets for BB. Their take is that this bullet will deliver optimal performance at 1000 fps OR LESS. That was good to hear since I can get about 900 or so in my Taurus 856. You just clearly confirmed that. It seems that this bullet will perform very well at velocities where a JHP (even the vaunted 125 gr) don't really work all that well. Obviously 'magnum' or +P velocities are unnecessary for this bullet. Great job as always.
I was pretty impressed with the Buffalo Bore expansion along with the penetration. This BB bullet seems to expand better than loads from the big three that have been manufacturing this load since it was conceived. Obviously BB doesn’t just pack in the powder and call it good. The advantage of a 158 grain bullet is that it will probably shoot point of aim, or at least closer to POA out of a .38, particularly a short barrel compared with the accuracy of lighter, highly regarded self defense loads. It should be noted that the so called FBI load was actually something the St. Louis, MO police department came up with in collaboration with one of the ammo manufacturers and apparently wasn’t quick give credit where credit was due, contrary to how Jeff Cooper was to those who pioneered techniques that he incorporated into Modern Pistol and other contributions.
Super Vel told me they were sending me all this various ammo a year ago, then never did. Until they follow through it's hard to justify buying from them, when as a company they are showing that they can't be trustworthy.
@@frankhinkle5772 The CEO contacted me, said that they will send whatever I want, even if not in stock they will get it to me. I figured after about a year this probably means they have forgotten.
More penetration from the 4 inch barrel between the standard and +P. That is a definite benefit in the heavier gun where the cost of recoil and follow-up shots is minimized.
Very good video. I just can’t understand why the big ammunition manufacturers can’t load a standard pressure 38 that has the same power as the buffalo bore one.
I personally think it's liability and cost. All modern .38 Special revolvers could easily handle Buffalo Bore power, but with all the old handguns out there and with stupid people who would shoot a mainstream .38 Special+P in a 120 year old gun, I think that's a headache the ammo companies do not want. Also along with that, if you just dump a fast burning cheap powder that works great with 9mm, into a .38 Special case, you get basically run of the mill .38 Special ammo. I have done it handloading, you take a 125 gr bullet, use load data powder charge for 124 gr 9mm, and you get .38 Special ammo that shoots at 900 FPS from a 4" barrel, 800 from a 2". To me it adds up they are just using powder that is cheap to save a buck.
I think you used to use a S&W Scandium Model 342 for testing. It would be interesting to see if the standard pressure BB 158 gr swchp jumps the crimp. That's the risk with lead bullets in lightweight revolvers
I have shot some in my 342PD in the past which is just an aluminum alloy frame. I do recall seeing a little crimp jump, but it wasn't significant enough to pull the 5th round more than 1/100" or so
@@GunSam My 340PD's recoil is so stiff that the same load moved the bullets significantly . I like the BB 38 standard pressure 158gr swchp and I like the 150g wadcutter even more. Aside from some POI issues with it, the penetration in excellent and it cuts very sharp edges.
It looks like pretty good performance. Quite some time ago, I purchased a modest supply of both types from Buffalo Bore. I've not had to use them as yet & I pray I don't have to use them for their intended purpose.
Those loads are well into 9x19mm power levels. I have no idea how important split times are in real shooting (defensive, hunting). My guess is that competition split times vs making sure you hit a real threat split times are going to be quite different. Based on my still limited experience with the S&W M&P340 shooting 125gr & 140gr magnum loads, I'll say you can still dump a cylinder pretty quickly at close range.
They have basically the same loads on paper, however their +P version is about the same power as Buffalo Bore's standard pressure version. Underwood's 158 hard cast+P is as powerful as BB's 158+P, but for whatever reason Underwood loads their hollow point version 100 FPE lower than BB
There is a difference in the impact of the plus P over the standard. Please observe the amount of paint that is removed from the metal Target Even though it’s metal, the appearance is similar to a bullet hole in paper. Plus, P removes more paint it is hitting harder, while the standard only removes a small amount of paint. So there is some difference in the impact of the two cartridges. Great test.
Great video Sam! I was chasing a .357 all summer and had decided that a .38 was going to be more useable in the long run. The Taurus was my price range but I've seen enough other people having problems to make me leery. An RIA M206 presented itself at a really good price and I finally made a purchase. I know it's a budget gun, but I'm shooting it well enough and it's eating every factory load, reload, and even some +P. I think I'll hold off on the Buffalo Bore though and shoot mostly hand loads to stay in practice. Thanks!
I really like my S&W revolvers; they're all .357 but I bought a pair of the RIA in 4" & 2" for $500.00 out the door. I'm happier than a pig in mud with them.
Thanks again for a great video. I load my wife's Taurus 85 (used to be mine but she claimed it) with Federal 129 grain +P JHPs for regular carry plus it is our bedside table gun. But in Spring time here in Black bear country, I load it with Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWC Hard cast. Pretty stout recoil with it in the little gun, but she handles it ok. Have you ever tested that load?
The BB Standard pressure load from a snubbie is going faster than most of The Big Three +P loads do...out of a 4" barrel they have 75-100 fps over their +P... The BB +P is easily the equal of the original .38-44 load by Winchester/Western and Remington/Peters back in the 1930s to 1950s...but a better bullet. Those loads were only rated at 1115 fps from a 5" barrel for the 158 grain loadings. Worked for Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s and personally knew 6 officers who carried that load and shot either things or people...5 of the 6 changed guns and caliber after their "incident". (one of the officers changes after his poor second poor performance incident). The rounds bounced off or stuck in the side of the stand on the corner collection mailboxes, car windshields, car doors, stuck in the neck of one felon and left people standing... The only one who was happy was a sergeant who shot a murder suspect inside a motorhome...dropped the guy right there. I knew at least 50 other officers who got into shooting with other guns and calibers and not a one of the changed a thing... When I carry a .38, which isn't very often, I carry the BB +P 158 HP or the Outdoorsman Solid...nothing less.
Remember kids, whatever you choose to carry in the ol' hand canon there is no replacement for shot placement - standard.38 is plenty enough - my opinion.
We need to get you a Henry so you can test these out of a rifle. 😊 I think they might be a nice fit but you never know what the extra 300 fps would do to bullet performance.
Great video love these quantitative analyses, they are very informative. Question...have you ever tried the PPU equivalent to the standard pressure bullets you tested here, and if so what were your impressions? Thanks a lot and keep the videos coming! (I am also a wheel gun fan)
For me I’m just looking for something that won’t blow up my 1951 police positive special but allows me to be confident if I throw it in my pocket to go to the grocery store. When I have time to plan I carry a 1952 Smith and Wesson Heavy duty with Winchester 130 grain +p Defender. I know a Heavy Duty will eat any hot 38 special all day everyday and ask for seconds on Sunday. But that police positive I don’t wanna push past standard pressure.
My experience with the standard pressure is that the recoil is too stout in lightweight snubs like Chief Special or Detective Special. It works great in a heavier gun like the 10-5 snub. The + P is pushing magnum territory, so I'd rather just use a magnum...
I carry the standard pressure load in alloy frame Colt D frames, and the plus p in aS&W 60-7, and a mid 70s vintage Detective Special . No big deal in either. As to going to a 357 load in a k frame, the only heavy weight load that exits faster out of a short barrel 357 is the old Winchester 145 Silver tip.,The Buffalo plus p 158 lhpis slightly slower , but 13 grains heavier without the blast of a 357.
2 questions: 1. What speed loader are you using? 2. The damage seems small in the gel compared to jacketed hp test. What is your take on the terminal effect of these lead hp? Thanks for the great work!
I'm impressed with those results. I've seen these loads tested elsewhere and it wasn't as successful. Maybe BB is getting their bullets from a different supplier or they changed the alloy.
Maybe do the Underwood version next time. The FBI load still seems like it's relevant as an option against modern cartridges and Underwood updated with the lipstick coating to prevent lead residue in the barrel.
Sam, I bought some of that Buffalo Bore L-SWC HP. Do you feel that this is the best self protection ammo for a 2" Revolver? I know a lot of ammo won't expand at all through a 2" barrel. I also was wondering if you had ever tried the Remington HTP + P ammo and if that was adequate or acceptable expansion through a 2" barrel. Thanks for all your video's. You explain a lot more than most people do that do ammo reviews. It's hard finding good reviews on ammo for the 2" revolvers.
I am looking at getting a pocket revolver. I like the price and 6 round capacity of the RIA M206 but compared to the 5 shot Charter Arms undercover it weighs twice as much. So that begs the question of what the best loads for an ultralight. Would love to see you compare say HBWC, 110gr, and 135 gr standard pressure loads.
I'm a big fan of both 110 gr+P Hornady Critical Defense as well as a 125 gr+P SJHP ammo like Remington HTP or Magtech. Everything else basically doesn't have bullet hollow point expansion in a normal power level. A third choice would be wadcutters. Going from memory, and often testing the same thing multiple times these are what comes to mind as the best loads to carry, if I were carrying .38 Special.
It's not an editorial comment on today's federal authorities. I agree with you there, but we are talking about a historically proven cartridge for self-defense. We can't call it the Chicago load either.
I just got a few hundred rounds of Remington HTP 125 grain semi jacketed hollow points. Your video on them was very impressive but so are these. Do you think the Buffalo Bore is a better self defense load?
Interesting presentation Sam. I was forced to use the old FBI load in the early ‘80s to rescue a hostage in a motel lobby. We were slightly more than two arms lengths apart and the round dropped the suspect, allowing the hostage to get away unhurt. The suspect lived after being hit center chest, neck & leg, to do a long stretch in prison. For your viewers I was using my issued 4” Model 15 S&W. Unfortunately these rounds are out of stock almost everywhere today.
Thanks for sharing your interesting experience. I think some people would be interested in your experience which would probably translate to the Buffalo Bore standard pressure in a 4" and their +P in a 2".
My old dept issued 158 gr Nyclad +p SWCHP for those carrying .38s (at least most of the time ... State Bid prices could overrule good ballistics). I appreciate you sharing your experience (and, of course, great work!). Most of us only used .38s for BUGs/ODGs and of the few who carried a wheel gun, the only thing shot that I recall was a truck. The truck was, unsurprisingly, not impressed ... until the tire flattened and the rim shattered. ;) Anyway, Sir, well met!
Thanks for sharing that, partner. You saved a life that day. I do not imagine that your boy bounced right back after that. Knocked the wind out of his sails.
Thanks @Old Cop so this one very close range what about your other OIS? Did you use one hand or 2 on revolvers and do you remember front sight clearly or point shooting??? Thanks
@@DanTheWolfman Both of my other OIS were in the dark w/my .38, no night sights then. One was a break in at a liquor store after dark & the other was on a dark outside parking lot, November, 1974. Three suspects held up a liquor store and decided to shoot it out w/us rather than be arrested. In the aftermath one officer was shot but recovered (no vests then), one suspect was killed, one was arrested seeking treatment for a GSW at a hospital the next day & the third bad guy surrendered at the scene. I don’t remember if I used one hand or two until the last OIS in the motel lobby, and then it was two hands. As an aside I stay out of liquor stores today but at 75 I’m not much of a drinker.
Buffalo Bore standard pressure is beyond what most companies load their supposed "+p" to. Great ammo, hard to beat that performance.
My absolute Go-To Round for carry, the Non +p 158gr FBI load by Buffalo Bore! I carry them in all my revolvers with a short barrel. As a vintage revolver guy it helps with the authenticity as well. Great video and thank you for sharing.
One of the best load in .38 spl ever made. The old&venerable .38 still rules!
Absolutely
Couldn't agree more. I thought maybe it was time to move my .38 SD load choice into the 21st century, and have been going through all the old test vids. After seeing this one, I think I'm sticking with "the FBI load".
@@faryldaryl3975 look at what the +P did to that block Who’s gonna handle more than 3 of those
Yes. Asked the last old timer that still carried 38S. He was an experienced home loader.
I was expecting he carried 21st century tech in his J frame.
Cylinder full of soft lead 158g Wad cutters. Fbi loads, and soft lead ball were at top of his list. I thought it was a fud call.
Turns out he knew what he was talking about.
@@Lateralus1007 trust me. There’s some really angry people out there that ain’t wired like you and me.
900+fps(2bbl.")and 1000+fps(4"bbl.") with a 158gr. projectile, is plenty of power for a self defense situation, with good expansion and penetration also.
Choices in the old days were limited but not all of them were crap. .38 is very underestimated round and will do well with a decent load, even if it’s old school.
Shot Buffalo Bore +P in my Taurus 38 Special model 85. That stuff is the power of some companies 357 or close to it. It shook the pistol out of timing. I had to send it to Taurus to have it repaired. Use a Smith or Ruger if you want to shoot BB 38+P, Brutal!!!
those 158 LSWCHP's looks like is all you need in a 38/357 revolver they hit with more than enough authoritah!!💣💥 love those 38 spl videos thanks Sam.
Thanks for your work Sam. I know it must be a lot of work putting these videos together, shooting, editing, etc. You do a good job and I REALLY APPRECIATE the revolver info and ammo demonstrations, ballistic tests. I am revolver nut and mostly 38 special/ 357 so videos like this are right up my alley in interest. Take care-MN
Thanks. It's a lot of work, but the kind that seems like it's not work at all.
When that FBI load was in its prime, it was state of the art. We are lucky to have better bullets now
I was really impressed with velocity out of the 2" barrel. These are really serious defense loads. Thanks for another really well done video, really worth while information.
Nice performing load, one of the best 38 loads for years now. Thanks for the video!
That's pretty awesome 38 special performance,
With modern commercial loadings 38 is usually a very underwhelming non expanding round,
But this is really nice.
Back in the day I tested various .38 loads from my 2" j frame. All of the big 3 158+P failed (Remington did the best due to the lead being softer. I didn't have a chro, but the Winchester penetrated deeper with very little expansion, the Remmy was second and the Federal finished last. Decades went by and I happened to get some of the BB and my good friend "the Brassfetcher" tested them in gel and got 1006 fps. The bullet expanded very well and penetration was pretty good too. He also tested their 125+P and got 1235 fps from the same gun.
I carry the +P version in my SP101 2.25”. They are both accurate and manageable. I also use them in my home defense GP100 4.2”. Great video…thanks.
Great Video. Those Buffalo Bore loads are impressive.
Thank you Sam! I asked of this a bit back and you delivered! I carry by policy a .38 Spl chambered revolver on my security retirement gig and the +P load is in my speedloaders and Model 67 S&W. Oh and Shhh! My BUG Model 49 Bodyguard!
That will be our secret. I'm still carrying my BUG M37 from 1980.
Thanks, that was a good test and I agree with your conclusion; the standard pressure cartridge may have the advantage at the end of the day. First, you have to have the gun with you. Second, you have to be able to hit the target. THIRD, you need to make follow-up shots.
that was wonderful expansion for both 4 and 2 inch barrels.ive shot and tested jhp factory ammunition and my reloads and many fail to get close to that expansion. been doing this 43 years and that's awesome.papa wishing you well.
Glad to see ads in your TH-cam presentations. I am letting them run out to the end. Hope it helps.
DOUG out
Best load for 38 Special!
Pretty good performance. Really more like a +P and a mild .357 magnum. Those bullets are available from Rim Rock as a component.
Thanks, Sam. Back in the late 80's, this is the load in carried in my J frame. Nice to see that it actually worked as designed.
👍 good stuff! My wife and I carried BB +p in our J frames for years. We bet our lives on it.
Thanks, another good and interesting comparison. Thanks for taking time to share this with us. Take care.
Your timing is impeccable. I just got a S&W 442 J-frame. I’ve been considering the Buffalo Bore short barrel along with the Underwood +P. Thanks for the great ballistic knowledge as always.
I would be sure to test them for bullet creep in a gun that light, shoot 4 and look at the last one.
I carry BB 110 Barnes and 130 HST in mine.
From what I've garnered from your videos et al; Buffalo Bore seems to have more consistent velocities than Underwood.
that buffalo bore 38+p is giving you roundabouts the same velocities that the federal American eagle 357 soft points were giving you, witch begs the question is buffalo bore loading their ammo way too hot or are the ammo companies pud loading their revolver ammo ???
.357 Magnum loaded right give 800 ft lbs in my 686, so ammo companies are down loading. That being said, the .38+P is lead, so you can get 100 FPS+ vs a jacketed bullet with the same powder charge. I don't believe these rounds are over pressure at all
@@GunSam Not overloaded at all. They are loaded right up to SAAMI upper specs for standard and +P loads.
I’ve got the plus P in my little Taurus. I figure if I ever have to use the thing the first shot will get it done as it’s going to be close quarters plus I’m a pretty big guy
I am glad you doing this video about .38 calibur from buffalo 🦬 Bore. Because I just ordered some 💯. Let em rip bro 🤝
I have yet to find a bad Buffalo Bore round. You get what you pay for, you will see more consistency with them just by looks, also by accuracy and velocity. Packaging is perfect too.
I’m really impressed with what you were getting out of the BB ammo. I’m shooting primarily .38spcl. I’ll have pick up some of these. Great video, thanks.
Gotta try some of that in my 38. Thanks for the video Sam.
Great video and commentary, as usual. Have been wanting to see an evaluation of these. I wouldn't feel under-gunned with either of those in a "normal" street encounter. Thanks so much.
Thanks for the video. I have a Smith model 65 3" and use the BB +P for self defense. A lot hotter and energy than the SGD .357 mag. 135 gr short barrel. Looks like the standard pressure BB might be a better choice for follow up shots.
Wow, Buffalo Bore makes kick@$$ ammo for every application. It never disappoints.
Excellent review very well done
Buffalo Bore recently raised their prices on all their ammunition and now I can't really afford it anymore.
Snuby 38 looses about 25% in velocity and power. Your demonstration shows that the +p in a snuby increase the power of the snuby up to the power of a standard 38 in a 4 inch barrel. Therefore this was a very informative presentation. Looking at the muzzle rise in the snubby +p I saw the muzzle flip up very high and you did recover from it exceedingly well. Good shooting.
Really excellent presentation. Thank you.
Awesome to see this test. Some time back, I communicated with RimRock bullets about this very bullet. They are the ones that make this and some other cast bullets for BB. Their take is that this bullet will deliver optimal performance at 1000 fps OR LESS. That was good to hear since I can get about 900 or so in my Taurus 856. You just clearly confirmed that. It seems that this bullet will perform very well at velocities where a JHP (even the vaunted 125 gr) don't really work all that well. Obviously 'magnum' or +P velocities are unnecessary for this bullet. Great job as always.
I was pretty impressed with the Buffalo Bore expansion along with the penetration. This BB bullet seems to expand better than loads from the big three that have been manufacturing this load since it was conceived. Obviously BB doesn’t just pack in the powder and call it good. The advantage of a 158 grain bullet is that it will probably shoot point of aim, or at least closer to POA out of a .38, particularly a short barrel compared with the accuracy of lighter, highly regarded self defense loads. It should be noted that the so called FBI load was actually something the St. Louis, MO police department came up with in collaboration with one of the ammo manufacturers and apparently wasn’t quick give credit where credit was due, contrary to how Jeff Cooper was to those who pioneered techniques that he incorporated into Modern Pistol and other contributions.
Appreciate this info. Been looking for something like this for a 3” revolver and a snubbie as well.
Nice flow and clear results summary. Dig it.
Appreciate the analysis.
Just bought a 38 special snub nose thanks for the video very informative
Love to see you test those super vel 38s now that you’ve been using gel
Super Vel told me they were sending me all this various ammo a year ago, then never did. Until they follow through it's hard to justify buying from them, when as a company they are showing that they can't be trustworthy.
@@GunSam If you can't get them, we probably can't get them either, so why bother?
@@frankhinkle5772 The CEO contacted me, said that they will send whatever I want, even if not in stock they will get it to me. I figured after about a year this probably means they have forgotten.
@@GunSam Call them back. You probably spoke to some woke nerd that doesn't care. I'm sure the owner will gladly send you his ammo.
More penetration from the 4 inch barrel between the standard and +P. That is a definite benefit in the heavier gun where the cost of recoil and follow-up shots is minimized.
Perfect! That’s great information. Thanks, Vince
Ideal performance for a 38 Special. I would use the +P as you may have to shoot at a distance.
Great comparison, thanks very much.
Very good video. I just can’t understand why the big ammunition manufacturers can’t load a standard pressure 38 that has the same power as the buffalo bore one.
I personally think it's liability and cost. All modern .38 Special revolvers could easily handle Buffalo Bore power, but with all the old handguns out there and with stupid people who would shoot a mainstream .38 Special+P in a 120 year old gun, I think that's a headache the ammo companies do not want. Also along with that, if you just dump a fast burning cheap powder that works great with 9mm, into a .38 Special case, you get basically run of the mill .38 Special ammo. I have done it handloading, you take a 125 gr bullet, use load data powder charge for 124 gr 9mm, and you get .38 Special ammo that shoots at 900 FPS from a 4" barrel, 800 from a 2". To me it adds up they are just using powder that is cheap to save a buck.
That plus p smacked the heck out of that block I don’t think anyone would do too well against those
I think you used to use a S&W Scandium Model 342 for testing. It would be interesting to see if the standard pressure BB 158 gr swchp jumps the crimp. That's the risk with lead bullets in lightweight revolvers
I have shot some in my 342PD in the past which is just an aluminum alloy frame. I do recall seeing a little crimp jump, but it wasn't significant enough to pull the 5th round more than 1/100" or so
@@GunSam My 340PD's recoil is so stiff that the same load moved the bullets significantly . I like the BB 38 standard pressure 158gr swchp and I like the 150g wadcutter even more. Aside from some POI issues with it, the penetration in excellent and it cuts very sharp edges.
I carry this or the hard cast WC. Depending if I'm planning on seeing bears or not.
Your the man gun Sam!!!!!
Well done! I have to chuckle a bit…I have a 3” model 36… love my wheel guns!
It looks like pretty good performance. Quite some time ago, I purchased a modest supply of both types from Buffalo Bore. I've not had to use them as yet & I pray I don't have to use them for their intended purpose.
Those loads are well into 9x19mm power levels. I have no idea how important split times are in real shooting (defensive, hunting). My guess is that competition split times vs making sure you hit a real threat split times are going to be quite different. Based on my still limited experience with the S&W M&P340 shooting 125gr & 140gr magnum loads, I'll say you can still dump a cylinder pretty quickly at close range.
Another most excellent video.
You should do an underwood comparison like this next. They have similar rounds. In std and +p. Could be interesting.
They have basically the same loads on paper, however their +P version is about the same power as Buffalo Bore's standard pressure version. Underwood's 158 hard cast+P is as powerful as BB's 158+P, but for whatever reason Underwood loads their hollow point version 100 FPE lower than BB
Why are Underwood and Buffalo Bore the only people that can load a 158 SWCHP to expand out of a 2 inch revolver?
Good video Sam.
Thank you
Excellent information. Thanks!
Great content! I’m glad the 38 special is getting some appreciation. All Yankee Marshall does is trash it along with 380
Thanks for another great video
Awesome video Sam, thanks 👍👍
Thank you
Great testing Sam. These old skool classics are hard to beat. 🎩🏁🎯🎱♠️🇺🇲🇺🇦🔱🌻💮🌼🌸🍀🔫
BOTH rounds did excellent in BOTH guns, I'd say this is a great choice for all .38 special revolvers.
There is a difference in the impact of the plus P over the standard. Please observe the amount of paint that is removed from the metal Target Even though it’s metal, the appearance is similar to a bullet hole in paper. Plus, P removes more paint it is hitting harder, while the standard only removes a small amount of paint. So there is some difference in the impact of the two cartridges. Great test.
Great Video Sam!!!
That's some pretty good stuff. Thanks
The FBI shot it mainly from 3 inch S&W mod 10/13 revolvers. (Maybe also mod 64/65) Quite comfortable to shoot out of these.
Great comparison, good video
Great video Sam! I was chasing a .357 all summer and had decided that a .38 was going to be more useable in the long run. The Taurus was my price range but I've seen enough other people having problems to make me leery. An RIA M206 presented itself at a really good price and I finally made a purchase. I know it's a budget gun, but I'm shooting it well enough and it's eating every factory load, reload, and even some +P. I think I'll hold off on the Buffalo Bore though and shoot mostly hand loads to stay in practice. Thanks!
I really like my S&W revolvers; they're all .357 but I bought a pair of the RIA in 4" & 2" for $500.00 out the door. I'm happier than a pig in mud with them.
@@fordtruck3963 I have both of those as well and all is good so far!
Thanks again for a great video. I load my wife's Taurus 85 (used to be mine but she claimed it) with Federal 129 grain +P JHPs for regular carry plus it is our bedside table gun. But in Spring time here in Black bear country, I load it with Buffalo Bore 158 grain +P LSWC Hard cast. Pretty stout recoil with it in the little gun, but she handles it ok. Have you ever tested that load?
The BB Standard pressure load from a snubbie is going faster than most of The Big Three +P loads do...out of a 4" barrel they have 75-100 fps over their +P... The BB +P is easily the equal of the original .38-44 load by Winchester/Western and Remington/Peters back in the 1930s to 1950s...but a better bullet. Those loads were only rated at 1115 fps from a 5" barrel for the 158 grain loadings.
Worked for Dallas PD back in the 1970s and 80s and personally knew 6 officers who carried that load and shot either things or people...5 of the 6 changed guns and caliber after their "incident". (one of the officers changes after his poor second poor performance incident). The rounds bounced off or stuck in the side of the stand on the corner collection mailboxes, car windshields, car doors, stuck in the neck of one felon and left people standing... The only one who was happy was a sergeant who shot a murder suspect inside a motorhome...dropped the guy right there.
I knew at least 50 other officers who got into shooting with other guns and calibers and not a one of the changed a thing...
When I carry a .38, which isn't very often, I carry the BB +P 158 HP or the Outdoorsman Solid...nothing less.
I didnt know 38 special could be that hot, I would happily carry that load in my wheelgun
Likewise
Great info. Thanks
Either way I was impressed with both calibur .38's 😊
Remember kids, whatever you choose to carry in the ol' hand canon there is no replacement for shot placement - standard.38 is plenty enough - my opinion.
Great ammo
We need to get you a Henry so you can test these out of a rifle. 😊 I think they might be a nice fit but you never know what the extra 300 fps would do to bullet performance.
Great video love these quantitative analyses, they are very informative. Question...have you ever tried the PPU equivalent to the standard pressure bullets you tested here, and if so what were your impressions? Thanks a lot and keep the videos coming! (I am also a wheel gun fan)
Buffalo Bore is great ammunition!
For me I’m just looking for something that won’t blow up my 1951 police positive special but allows me to be confident if I throw it in my pocket to go to the grocery store. When I have time to plan I carry a 1952 Smith and Wesson Heavy duty with Winchester 130 grain +p Defender. I know a Heavy Duty will eat any hot 38 special all day everyday and ask for seconds on Sunday. But that police positive I don’t wanna push past standard pressure.
They expand out of the short barrel not so much do to the velocity, it how thin and deep the hollow point walls are with those buffalo bore rounds
My experience with the standard pressure is that the recoil is too stout in lightweight snubs like Chief Special or Detective Special. It works great in a heavier gun like the 10-5 snub. The + P is pushing magnum territory, so I'd rather just use a magnum...
I carry the standard pressure load in alloy frame Colt D frames, and the plus p in aS&W 60-7, and a mid 70s vintage Detective Special . No big deal in either. As to going to a 357 load in a k frame, the only heavy weight load that exits faster out of a short barrel 357 is the old Winchester 145 Silver tip.,The Buffalo plus p 158 lhpis slightly slower , but 13 grains heavier without the blast of a 357.
Cool video thanks.
2 questions:
1. What speed loader are you using?
2. The damage seems small in the gel compared to jacketed hp test. What is your take on the terminal effect of these lead hp?
Thanks for the great work!
Hi Gun Sam, how are you?
Would it be possible for you to include the Super 38 ammo test in the revolver 357 ?
How was the .38 special plus p recoil compared to a standard.158 gr .357 mag?
I was interested because I picked up a bunch of 158 gr SWCHP+P cheap. Better than I expected.
I'm impressed with those results. I've seen these loads tested elsewhere and it wasn't as successful. Maybe BB is getting their bullets from a different supplier or they changed the alloy.
Isn't 3 inch barrel the 'sweet spot'? a 3 inch bobbed hammer is also ok for concealed carry.
Maybe do the Underwood version next time. The FBI load still seems like it's relevant as an option against modern cartridges and Underwood updated with the lipstick coating to prevent lead residue in the barrel.
Sam, I bought some of that Buffalo Bore L-SWC HP. Do you feel that this is the best self protection ammo for a 2" Revolver? I know a lot of ammo won't expand at all through a 2" barrel. I also was wondering if you had ever tried the Remington HTP + P ammo and if that was adequate or acceptable expansion through a 2" barrel.
Thanks for all your video's. You explain a lot more than most people do that do ammo reviews. It's hard finding good reviews on ammo for the 2" revolvers.
Interesting. It appeared that with the J-frame, shooting both the standard and +P rounds, you had to readjust your grip after each discharge.
I never once readjusted my grip. I only grip with my right hand, explain?? I'm confused.
@@GunSam see video 7:40 (4 inch) vs video 7:51 (J frame).
I am looking at getting a pocket revolver. I like the price and 6 round capacity of the RIA M206 but compared to the 5 shot Charter Arms undercover it weighs twice as much.
So that begs the question of what the best loads for an ultralight. Would love to see you compare say HBWC, 110gr, and 135 gr standard pressure loads.
I'm a big fan of both 110 gr+P Hornady Critical Defense as well as a 125 gr+P SJHP ammo like Remington HTP or Magtech. Everything else basically doesn't have bullet hollow point expansion in a normal power level. A third choice would be wadcutters. Going from memory, and often testing the same thing multiple times these are what comes to mind as the best loads to carry, if I were carrying .38 Special.
"FBI Load" - Yeah, that is going over well today.
It's not an editorial comment on today's federal authorities. I agree with you there, but we are talking about a historically proven cartridge for self-defense. We can't call it the Chicago load either.
@@frankhinkle5772 Or Metro-Dade load, St. Louis load, or San Antonio load.
I just got a few hundred rounds of Remington HTP 125 grain semi jacketed hollow points. Your video on them was very impressive but so are these. Do you think the Buffalo Bore is a better self defense load?
Thank You