Why did the marriage of Anne of Cleves' and Henry VIII really fail? | Heather Darsie | Full Version
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- Welcome to this #history channel with weekly live shows plus monthly historian interviews and history documentaries.
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In this episode, I am delighted to bring to you my chat with Heather Darsie, author of a breakthrough biography of Henry VIII’s 4th wife, Anne of Cleves; ’Anna, Duchess of Cleves: The King’s ‘Beloved Sister’’, which was published in 2019.
Heather’s book gives a new perspective on Anna as a woman from the Holy Roman Empire, placing her firmly in the midst of the political situation in Europe especially at the time of her ill-fated marriage to England’s king, Henry VIII.
Through consulting primary sources and visiting archives and museums all over Europe, Heather has been able to look at Anna’s story, and that of her failed marriage to England’s most notorious king in a different, and all the more revealing context, which explains some of the oddities in the story of this pair who, despite not remaining married did remain firm and close friends.
#HenryVIII #SixwivesofHenryVIII
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What is on the back of Thomas Cromwell’s seal, on a 1539 document negotiating the marriage of his master, Henry VIII to Anna of Cleves?
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About Philippa
Philippa is a Historian and History Event Organiser
Philippa Lacey Brewell lives in Central England and is well respected in her field as a historian and tour guide. She is the owner and founder of British History Tours, a tour company for those who love British History.
Philippa entertains thousands each week with her videos and stories from across the UK and British History. This ability to engage an audience, as well as being an expert in travelling the historical sites of the UK, makes her your perfect guide. - บันเทิง
The 1970 TV series The Six Wives of Henry VIII starring Keith Michell, as I recall, showed the episode of Anne and Henry, finally alone on their wedding night, when she tells him what is going on politically on the continent, revealing information which had been kept from him, and he says "it's too late, the marriage is celebrated," and she says "but NOT consummated!" and he laughs and says that would keep everybody confused, and agreed that they would not consummate the marriage and keep everybody guessing.
Does anybody else remember this series? I loved it at the time.
I loved it too.
I remember it!
Kieth Michell’s rendition of Henry’s death rattle will never be forgotten!
Keith Michele was a fabulous Henry. Ranks to me, second to only Richard Burton.
One of the things about one of Henry’s excuses for annulling the marriage that I find interesting is that he claimed that he could tell Anna was someone else’s wife by feeling her body, but he wasn’t able to figure that out with Catherine Howard.
Haha, yes, great point.
Finger prints of either Cromwell or a clerk are on the back of the seal. What a wonderful interview. Yes, us Brits are so used to being told of history that may or may not have happened and if a story is repeated enough, people start to believe it as truth ☹️ It takes someone special like Heather to really delve into an area of history and find out what really happened. Many thanks, great interview 👍
Absolutely agree Lisa! Not only do we believe those stories but assume they come from an accurate source. Clearly stories have been made up out of nothing to suit an agenda throughout history too. So glad you enjoyed the interview 😀
Anna dodged a bullet - or rather, a swordsman!
This was a fantastic discussion. It was wonderful hearing both the German & English perspectives of Anna collide. The twist on the Parr marriage was fascinating!
I thought that Anne Cleaves was actually beautiful…but Henry VIII was morbidly obese and not able to do the “deed” …she was gracious in agreeing to the annulment and Henry treated her fairly after that as “the King’s sister”….
I am loving this discussion, even as I'm watching it and haven't finished yet. I'm sure I'll watch again and take notes. The birds are lovely but very distracting. It's difficult to pay attention, but I am so glad to have found this. The story of Anne of Cleves has been the most mysterious to me so far as I study Tudor history.
Loved this new perspective! I’ve only ever heard the English version of the Cleaves annulment. Interesting to see the Duchy maps of the 1500s. Fingerprints on the back Cromwell’s seal. The portraits & signatures of the various players are enticing. Thank you to both of you for a well spent hour and a half.
I love a map and was so pleased when Heather included some to help understand the geography at the time 😀
Heather Darsie's biography on Anne of Cleves was excellent - it really brought her to life and brought out the troubles that surrounded her marriage. I heartily recommend it.
There is a fingerprint of the person applying the seal which could be Cranmer or his clerk.
I absolutely adored this podcast presentation by Darsie of her research. It was absolutely fascinating and makes much better sense of how the breakdown occurred but how Anne remained in such good regard with Henry & his court. I just bought her book and can’t wait to explore it! Thank you!
I totally agree, makes so much more sense now! I hope you enjoy the book 😀
Wow, so glad I stumbled onto this podcast. The information makes so much more sense than the “accepted” version.
Glad to have you here 😀
I'm surprised by how popular Anne Boleyn is as she was such an unsuccessful Queen and didn't last long once Henry married her. All her power came from Henry. Anna of Cleves was more clever and Catherine Of A and Catherine P. popular and more accomplished Queens.
While true in their own right. Anne Boleyn was ultimately the most successful because her daughter became one of Englands best Monarchs.
Now this is not technically true you see because of all 6 queens Catherine of Aragon and Katherine Parr his first and last wives were most beloved of the people during their reigns. Now Anne Boleyn however may not have given Henry viii the boy he longed for that Jane Seymour did give him but she gave him something better she 1. Got him to break with the Catholic church and begin the church of England. And 2. She gave him Elizabeth who lived longer then both her siblings , managed never to marry except as she put it be married to England, and she ruled for 44 yrs and was the golden age her father had longed for desperately. And she brought home king James of Scotland as her heir her cousin technically because his mother QUEEN Mary of Scotland had been the daughter of Elizabeth's father's sister who had been sent to Scotland to marry for peace.
Anne of Cleves is my favorite of his wives
Just discovered, for anyone distracted by the birds, there is a transcript available! Again, I really love this discussion. Thanks for posting the video:)
So glad you enjoyed it. Sorry about the birds.
@@BritishHistory No! It was fine. I was interested enough that I kept watching, so that's a testament to how informative the video was, right? Lol I really did enjoy it. I'm an amateur historian so I love stuff like this. Not all documentaries are necessarily factual. I've learned that the hard way, but this was so eye-opening. It really did explain a lot of inexplicable things we've all heard about the relationship between Henry VIII and Anne of Cleves.
😀 That’s absolutely fantastic to hear how much you enjoyed it and how much you got from it.
I chanced on this when browsing and find it absolutely fascinating. I’ve always been interested in history but this piece chimes with me because I’m half Dutch with an English father. I know these places you speak of although did not manage to visit some of them because, when I lived in Germany (army wife back in the day) I lived close to the west/East German border. I learned to speak German and can still, many years later, converse in the language. I’m also fluent in Dutch. It’s so lovely to find some history which covers both my countries of origin. Thank you so much - you have a new subscriber!
Ms Darsie's hypothesis; that the "dismissal" of Anne was more politically, than personally, motivated is covered to quite an extent in the BBC's 1970 The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth - (Episode 4) Anne of Cleves. It goes all over how there was a power-play over Anne's status, that was directly tied to Henry's decision to not support the Protestant Alliance against the Holy Roman Empire.
There are fingerprints on the back of Thomas Cromwell's seal, which may be his fingerprints, or perhaps fingerprints of the person who affixed the seal to the document.
I absolutely LOVED her no-emotion / pure-politics approach, it makes so much more sense as to why the marriage fell apart. I'm definitely ordering her book, I think she's a brilliant historian.
So awesome to know more about Anna 💗
I always thought it sounded completely stupid that Henry VIII was so offended that Anne "didn't recognize her true love in disguise" that he ended a political marriage. I mean, in what world would Henry have had to exist where he had his privy council orchestrate a political marriage to a political ally and simultaneously hold this romantic notion that Anne should recognize him as her soulmate? WHAT?? This explanation here makes so much more sense. Also, the picture the author found of Anne is 100x prettier than that awful Holbein portrait. I wonder if the Holbein is accurate at all?
You learn something new everyday especially when it comes to history. Great podcast extremely interesting.
Omg I just checked every fire alarm , looked out all my windows to check for a bird chirping before dawn. I went to the kitchen to start the coffee machine, when I walked back into the room I am listening this video in Ah Ha!, here are the birds chirping up a storm lol! I wonder how many other OCD listeners you have that have had this problem with the chirps ? I love birds btw,it just took me a while to figure it out! Interesting material, I had never heard a deep dive of the Cleves so this was great . My sister & 5 children spent 3 years in Germany while her husband served in the military in the Desert . She and the children loved it there, all took extra classes to learn German & took every type of classes thy could to immerse themselves in language & culture. Other family members went to stay with her and they all turned so much of Europe in those 3 years.
Wow, all I can say is thank you. So glad I stumbled on this , it just ‘popped up’. Such a different version than we have all been taught - and makes so much more sense. I have always thought her to be a very pretty woman so, I guess, they had to invent the story of Henry’s vanity. Seriously, what king ( and courtiers) would approve of a future queen and wife, kissing a strange gentleman whilst in her bedchamber! Ridiculous. That would have been enough to dispute her character. Catherine of Aragon was a truly gracious snd noble queen snd I think Anna would have been the same ( even, perhaps the possibility of sons) - a noble woman raised in traditional roles and virtues of a Princess. She was queen material. I don’t mean any insults here but , none of Henry’s other wifes had the advantage or virtue of this . Don’t know if I’m saying it properly. Hope so. Thoroughly enjoyed this and looking forward to more. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏👵👵🇦🇺🇦🇺
I just love this episode. Heather Darcy is fascinating and insightful. She had to have done a Ton of research for this book, thanks again Phillipa 😍
This is so educational and illuminating. Thank you so much.
Really good documentary, well told. :)
Thank you for teaching me so much more about Anna of Cleves than I ever imagined could be learned! I always thought there must be more to her than is commonly known.
It's always more complicated than we are led to believe. Thank you. 😊
Fingerprints on the reverse of Thomas Cromwell’s seal. The machinations if the men in power never more clearly evident in their treatment of their wives and dependent children. Anna was even luckier to escape the clutches of brothers and husbands.
This reminders of the religious views of the time, Henry’s age, his ligit. son and politically angled view of inferred alliance-by-marriage agreement makes so much more sense as to. The use of “annulment” was the best and most useful choice for Henry.
Thank you!
Really enjoyed this reconciliation of histories. I love both British and Germanic histories; probably because I am of German and English descent. As Americans in the Midwest and Southwest, most of my ancestors were Germans coming over in the 1830s, but I also have some English an Scots lineage.
An interesting and compelling argument. Great video
Well what a revelation, I so enjoyed this, we realise that history is subjective and this is a perfect example of there are two sides to a story beautifully articulated by Heather. The Hapsburg family has always interested me to, so this was enlightening, so thank you again, I hope Heather will enlighten us further..
Great presentation! Thank you,
I found this very informative and interesting. Thank you!
I truly enjoyed this THANKS HEATHER AND PHILIPPA. I am so interested in the european royal houses as I am a bit over the british royal particularly Tudor, sorry 😁
Great video thanks! I'm sure this is one I'll come back to more than once! 🙂
Thanks Janice, yes I agree - there's such a rich amount of information in Heather's work! 😀
Thanks. Great!
In popular depictions of Henry, he's always shown as the person driving events and his wives being passively driven by the them. Thus, Henry "offered" Anne generous terms and she gratefully "accepted" them. This excellent talk reinforces my belief that Anne was a lot quicker on the uptake than people give her credit for and knew how to play circumstances to her advantage. Keeping both Protestants and Catholics in her corner is no mean feat, not to mention keeping her head attached and her castles well-warmed. I've always thought her the most pragmatic of Henry's wives, and in that sense it's a pity they never had children. She did not repeat the mistakes of her predecessors.
Excellent mix of education and entertainment. Thanks.
What a fascinating interview/presentation!! The visuals really added a beneficial layer to the verbal information. Thank you both so much!
This was so interesting! Thanks Heather and Philippa! ❤😊
You are so welcome!
This made things far more understandable, thank you :)
Loved this vid ,I found it really interesting ,as we never hear that much about the back story of Anna of cleaves and why , although we’re told that She was not to Henry’s liking , the story never made much sense , as he treated her very well in fact much better than other queens he propertied to love ,who failed much worse as we know . I now would like to read the book . I was fascinated to hear that in Germany they have been taught a very different story to what was written in u.k . But I find it of that in all this time the story never migrated to us . Even by word of mouth ,I wonder if there are any German made films that focus on this topic ? On the seal of Cromwell there are fingerprints although they could have been , made by any of this administrative staff not necessarily Cromwell himself , but it’s very intriguing none the less Thank you for this interesting slice of History I look forward to many more
What a great video and enlightening background of Henry's marriage to Anna. Answer to the question to win a copy of that book: On the back of Cromwell's seal are two fingerprints, maybe his own or those of a clerk who handled the sealing process.
wow very interesting thank you a whole new look on history
Fingerprints! Somebody's fingerprints, anyway. The body long gone but the impression of the flesh remains. This talk was so illuminating, after the terrible things that were said about Anna. I never realized that Henry broke her heart like that. Do you think she never remarried because she felt that in a way she was still married to Henry despite the annulment?
If I were Anna, I'd be happy to have my own home and fortune and not have any man tell me how to live. Just my modern opinion, but quite possibly, she held her marriage vows sacred.
Interesting. Dr. Kat, a historical researcher with a TH-cam channel, has said Anna of Cleves' story is easily disproven. She couldn't have continued to be part of the court and liked by many if she smelled bad, could not speak English, and was socially awkward. On top of that, Anne had to be intelligent because she ran her estate successfully. Motherhood was her duty, and Cleves was not an isolated duchy in Europe; she would have been acquainted with the birds and the bees. It sounds like the official story could have covered very dangerous political intrigue, and it was in everyone's best interest, including Anna's, to keep quiet and go along with it. Political intrigue could also explain why she never went back to Cleves or, for that matter, never visited the continent.
Just found this channel and omg it’s made my week . ❤
Hi Chloe! Welcome 😀 I’m so glad you’ve found my channel. There are lots of awesome interviews and mini documentaries on here so hopefully you’ll find lots of things of interest.
- Philippa 💕
@@BritishHistory yes yes I will . I’m
A history nerd.
Fantastic podcast
On the back of the seal there are some fingerprints.
Hi, I'm Italian but I enjoy immensely England's language and culture, so thank you for this very interesting interview.
Ciao Fabrizia! I'm so glad you found my channel, there should be lots here that you will enjoy. I'm glad you enjoyed the video, and thank you for taking the time to comment and enter the competition!
Si, anche io! The history of England from the Norman conquest to Charles II is just the Game of Thrones without dragons. And more interesting because it is true.
The back of Cromwell's seal has fingerprints. Could be his or his clerk's.
I've wondered if Anna, as a very naive and sheltered young woman, had showed her distaste of this smelly, obese monarch when he stole a kiss and hence earned his eternal apathy.
Back then, people also had to pay fees to cross rivers, and taxes if they transported goods for trade, so it was a big source of income for those families who owned these places. Plus this area was like a hub in the middle of Europe, and traders travelling in every direction had to go through there, so of course it would have been coveted by many.
"Frauenzimmer" of course means the women's room, but it can also mean a woman (it's more derogatory, especially nowadays). The head dress is called "Haube" in German, and married women had to cover their hair with such a Haube; even today, when women get married, the expression "unter die Haube kommen" (to get under the Haube) is still used.
Anna must have been aware of what had happened to Ann Boleyn, like Christina of Denmark whom Henry wanted to marry and who reportedly said that she would marry him if she had two heads, so I'm sure she would have been terrified. The annulment happened seven months after the wedding, she must have gotten to know him during this time.
I'm also convinced that the portrait supposed to show Catherine Howard is actually Anna.
Can’t wait to read these books!
I was interested in Anna because she was Henry's "German" queen and I have German ancestry in the area. So, Anna was perhaps my people's princess. So thank you. 1:28:17 1:28:19 1:28:20
You’re so welcome!
Thankyou both so much this is the best use of youtube! This was really informative. At secondary school (it was the 70s!) It never made sense to me that Ann was just dismissed as the Flanders Mare. Great to get a wider perspective. I wish we had been taught more about why these decisions were made. If you listen to the renowned historian Mr D S (i love him really)talking about Boris Johnsons wife then things haven't changed that much. Some still believe that women are using their feminine wiles ( actually what are those?)to get what they want rather than their intelligence!😄
Loved it
Great video. Fingerprints are on the back of the seal, possibly by the hand of Cromwell. Who knew Cleves (Berg, La March, ravensburg, gelders) was such a big power broker in Europe at the time
28:10 the separate sheer cloth of her headdress draped at the forehead is a variation of the mediaeval wimpel; eng. and deutsch or guimpe, guimple fr.
Charles V (24 February 1500 - 21 September 1558) was Holy Roman Emperor and Archduke of Austria from 1519 to 1556, King of Spain from 1516 to 1556, and Lord of the Netherlands as titular Duke of Burgundy from 1506 to 1555. He was heir to and then head of the rising House of Habsburg.
I've read the book and must say it is excellently researched and written. Gives the lie to so many misconceptions and outright untruths about Anna.
The helmet on top of a coat of arms is called the helm. Anna of Cleves is a fascinating woman
I am an American fascinated by British history. Don’t have an ounce of British blood in me, that I know of. I’m German, Danish, and French. Never thought much of Anne of Cleves until this video. You have really piqued my interest.
Thanks!
Thank you so much for your Superchat! I’m so glad you loved this video. 😀💕
on the back of Cromwell's seal are either his fingerprints or fingerprints of whoever helped with the seal.
This was very interesting. The story of Anne being so terribly ugly never made any sence to me. Seattle, WA.
And burg castle is also the design for the castle in snow white and the seven dwarfs
Thank you for this lovely and interesting video. Just one thing about the German school system: it is not true that all children are taught together until the age of 14. There are "Gemeinschaftsschulen/Gesamtschulen" where that happens, but the majority of families, once the child as finished elementary school, has to decide if they go to the "Haupt"-, "Realschule" or "Gymnasium", which basically means deciding by the age of roughly 10 on the level of your future diploma. Sorry, if I maybe misunderstood the explanation in the video.
Hi! Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment 😀
I’m not well placed to clarify that in all honesty. Perhaps someone else in the audience knows and will comment.
- Philippa
@@BritishHistory Thank you for your fast and nice reply. I am from Germany and also teach there, but the school system is extremely diverse/varies from state to state. I teach in the south of Germany.
Absolutely love this amazing investigation and a totally different angle.
I wish the video could be with out the birds.
Lake of consideration and manners of the host, moments was hard for the guest speaker to focus on what she was trying to say.
I lived in Solingen as a 20 year old and went to Schloss Burg many times. Kind of magical.
Also, couldn’t Mary have had a soft spot for Anna because Anna publicly converted to the Catholic Church?
My favourite wife of Henry VIII
It's a headscratcher why Brexit would prevent an American from working on a book about the 16th century.
The Holbein portrait of Anne has an optical illusion. Look at Anne's hands.
Thank you. Cute birds :)
At least she got away with her head intact and a sweet divorce deal of land and money. That's more than the others got.
Just amazing madam
Thanks🙏💕Sf ca
I may be older but I can very appreciate a fine looking man like Henry Cavill . 🤤❤
😆👊🏼
I feel neither Anna and Henry wanted this marriage. They were both in the 'same place' emotionally at the same time.
He didn't want yet another divorce drama.
Personality-wise, they got on together well.
Interesting perspective on Anne of Cleves and political chess game between Charles V and her brother William. It makes Henry's "I like her not," seem a lame reason for an annulment. Had both Charles and William didn't have these mind games perhaps Anne would've still been the queen. Also Henry's settlement was very generous like a consulation.
Can someone give me such a consolation? 😂
I also thought she was a lucky ones. Great alimony and didn't have to deal with him and his health issues or beheadings!You'd think after a few beheadings and divorces women would want to avoid him if they had any power over it at all.
The birds in the background are so annoying.
It is a shame they wanted to get in on the action.
Cleves is pronounced K leeves not Klee vis. Just a bit of trivia. She is an ancestor of mine.
I think the swan knight stuff goes back to the mythological tradition that Zeus, the Alpha God, became a swan which seduced Leda, the wife of King Tyndareus, the King of Sparta. Some of her children were sired by the King, some by Zeus.
It's a way of claiming descent from the Gods.
kind of creepy, actually.
Fingerprints possibly Cromwell's
Mary Tudor was related to the Habsburgs only by her sister’s marriage to Philip (Max’s son). Charles, the HRE, was her cousin, right? So confusing 😂
My God the parrot 😅😬😬😬
Yup, I almost pulled the plug on this because of the parrot!
Damn birds
16:41
Anna converted to catholic I believe before she died
Because God plays favorites and he really LIKED Anne of Cleves. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
The Birds are very annoying
Finger prints
A finger print.
Sorry they are distracting
Hello I am so sorry to say this I am very interested in your story. I love Henry the eighth but the noise of those birds while you’re talking I just can’t sorry
Sorry to hear that, ideally they wouldn't have been there. Some people have loved them, some not but thank you for trying.
That hat looks like a pizza 🍕
Is anyone else confused as to why Henry had to kill Cromwell?? I understand the politics of the situation- I just don’t understand the necessity of the murder. What did it solve for Henry?
@@i.b.640 oh dear dear - how Trump like, umm maybe I understand a bit now; blaming the other, the intense narcissism so that he still appears resplendent?
The birds do not sound pretty. I'd love to listen but I can't handle the chirping. Throw a towel over the cage before you begin taping.