I really enjoyed Dragonlance as a teenager. Played in it. Read the novels. Somewhere along the way my suspension of disbelieve was blown when I noticed that Ansalon is a SMALL continent. "Really? Such epic wars with hundreds of dragons could fought over such a small place? The Companions traveled the continent for 5 years before meeting back up in Solace and heard only RUMORS of these wars... huh?" So I guess I'm old and jaded now... 🙃
Ah, but... I come from England. We had epic wars aplenty, especially post-410 AD. I don't have an issue with Ansalon's size, in that regard! If anything, I find the size of, say, the Forgotten Realms as anything but a collection of settings, rather than as a single consistent one, somewhat of a stretch. I guess it depends on the frames of reference you have.
The Dragonlance novels were something of an introduction to D&D to me, though I didn't know it at first. The local library was my favorite place as a kid, and escape through fantasy novels got me through some dark times. Reading them again with adult eyes, I have to say they weren't great literature, but I remember them fondly. I got the Tales of the Lance boxed set, and my friends and I played in the obscure corners of the world in the aftermath of the War of the Lance. The meta fiction felt inescapable. New novels drastically changed the world and our characters had nothing to do with it. So, we then mostly played in other settings, even though they all had novels, it just seemed like we could ignore them more easily.
That is somewhat of a problem for any game that is, perhaps, too well-detailed - either through fiction or source material. There ends up being a critical mass where player actions are stifled, the world is just too well-set. I'll discuss this more when we get to Glorantha in this series, but there are ways around it. I do sympathise with you here, though. Too much canon can kill a game setting.
The last few sentences of your closing monologue sum up my expieriences of the Dragonlance setting precisely. I really couldn't have said it better. I really wanted to love the setting, but there is always the damn war getting in the way.
The War is inevitable! It's frustrating that various game supplements have shown glimpses of what it could be beyond the War - but, I guess there are sales figures behind the scenes somewhere.
DragonLance campaigns are interesting when the DM understands high fantasy. People flying on the backs of saddled dragons. Definitely expands game-play to the next level.
Another excellent video Iain, Thank you. I find nowadays, that the more I listen to players and youtubers of a similar age to myself. I am amazed how similar our experiences and opinions are. I too read all of the DL Novels with great enthusiasm, and it plunged me into a lifelong hobby playing ad&d. However, trying to recreate the same exciting adventures id read in the book with the same characters always fell short, and expecting player to "follow the story" was almost exactly the opposite of Ad&d core appeal. Great review and I think echo the opinions of a generation of gamers with your critiques here.
Thank-you. It's interesting for me to see how similar some of our experiences are, especially because I remember how divergent of opinion and style of play people were "back in the day". Whether that means I've found my particular niche of an audience when it comes to gaming, or whether the differences weren't as great as I remember them being - I know not. I do know I'm having a ball revisiting these old games and settings with you all 🙂
There is the possibility of course that we "are" all grumpy old folk now :D but I for one am enjoying the presece of the grognard hivemind.@@WillyMuffinUK
I've been told that Tasslehoff emptying her (his? I dunno) pockets in one book near the end of a great adventure, and little reminders of everything they've been through, the places they've stopped, friends and enemies they met etc, was really well done. But doesn't really excuse the Kender-Player-Behavior. 5E's sanitized version of it where they're just likely to randomly have a needed tool without the stealing aspect of it, is maybe slightly better for reducing inter party drama, but doesn't have the potential for that one great scene.
@@Renkaru It's interesting to me. I've met a ton of folk that have read at least the Chronicles, but the number declines steeply beyond that. I don't know anyone that has read anywhere near all 160-odd DL novels (including me!)
I only played one session of Dragonlance (so far). We didn’t get to any obscure deaths…. I imagine the obscure death rule in the main series of modules could lead to some funny gameplay, in a gruesome sort of way, with PCs thinking they’ve killed an important villain, finding them alive later (“yes, I fell down that cliff, but a flumph broke my fall”), and then the next time the PCs kill the villain and his body’s about to fall off a cliff again and the PCs grab the corpse to prevent its loss (“not this time buddy”), with the PCs taking gruesome actions to ensure the villain is dead this time (e.g. stabbing the villain multiple times after they seem dead), then finding the villain alive AGAIN (“ah yes, I am a rare case of a person with their heart on the right side”), and this time the PCs kill the villain and cut off the villain’s head to be sure… then the villain returns (“luckily my head and body were found and stitched back together and I was resurrected by a passing evil cleric”)… and the characters this time cut off the villain’s head, burn the body to ashes and bring the head with them to be absolutely sure… and then the villain returns again with another excuse (“actually, you killed my twin”), and so on…. 😜
The one time I tried using the obscure death concept in my campaign, the PCs lopped off their foe's head and carried it with them, "to prevent that sh** from happening again" 🤣 Personally, I prefer using a new enemy - even if they have suspiciously similar stats. I mean, the players don't get to see stats, so bunging a new name onto "Verminaard mk 2" is preferable to "you know you killed Verminaard earlier? Well..."
The part about creature power levels has me laughing at myself. I remember being shocked playing Everquest that they just used the orc skin and name around more powerful stat arrays. Made me think B2's caverns would have felt a lot more unified if D&D had used that trick.
@@DIEGhostfish It is a tad convoluted. Basically, Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil - first two Gord books - are TSR, then Sea of Death, Night Arrant, City of Hawks, Come Endless Darkness, and Dance of Demons are all New Infinities. Gygax lost the rights to some names, because they were TSR copyrights, so certain beings and places turn up in the New Infinities works with different names to the ones usually used in a D&D context - but most are easily figured out. 84-87 was a tad chaotic.
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I really enjoyed Dragonlance as a teenager. Played in it. Read the novels. Somewhere along the way my suspension of disbelieve was blown when I noticed that Ansalon is a SMALL continent. "Really? Such epic wars with hundreds of dragons could fought over such a small place? The Companions traveled the continent for 5 years before meeting back up in Solace and heard only RUMORS of these wars... huh?" So I guess I'm old and jaded now... 🙃
Ah, but... I come from England. We had epic wars aplenty, especially post-410 AD. I don't have an issue with Ansalon's size, in that regard! If anything, I find the size of, say, the Forgotten Realms as anything but a collection of settings, rather than as a single consistent one, somewhat of a stretch.
I guess it depends on the frames of reference you have.
The Dragonlance novels were something of an introduction to D&D to me, though I didn't know it at first. The local library was my favorite place as a kid, and escape through fantasy novels got me through some dark times. Reading them again with adult eyes, I have to say they weren't great literature, but I remember them fondly.
I got the Tales of the Lance boxed set, and my friends and I played in the obscure corners of the world in the aftermath of the War of the Lance. The meta fiction felt inescapable. New novels drastically changed the world and our characters had nothing to do with it. So, we then mostly played in other settings, even though they all had novels, it just seemed like we could ignore them more easily.
That is somewhat of a problem for any game that is, perhaps, too well-detailed - either through fiction or source material. There ends up being a critical mass where player actions are stifled, the world is just too well-set. I'll discuss this more when we get to Glorantha in this series, but there are ways around it.
I do sympathise with you here, though. Too much canon can kill a game setting.
As Ozzy would say...Keep on smokin' it! And as always, thanks for the share!!
Ozzy is wise... Occasionally...
The last few sentences of your closing monologue sum up my expieriences of the Dragonlance setting precisely. I really couldn't have said it better. I really wanted to love the setting, but there is always the damn war getting in the way.
The War is inevitable! It's frustrating that various game supplements have shown glimpses of what it could be beyond the War - but, I guess there are sales figures behind the scenes somewhere.
DragonLance campaigns are interesting when the DM understands high fantasy. People flying on the backs of saddled dragons. Definitely expands game-play to the next level.
I think that's the default across the board with default D&D. You have to pare it back some way before you get anything but high fantasy!
Another excellent video Iain, Thank you. I find nowadays, that the more I listen to players and youtubers of a similar age to myself. I am amazed how similar our experiences and opinions are. I too read all of the DL Novels with great enthusiasm, and it plunged me into a lifelong hobby playing ad&d. However, trying to recreate the same exciting adventures id read in the book with the same characters always fell short, and expecting player to "follow the story" was almost exactly the opposite of Ad&d core appeal. Great review and I think echo the opinions of a generation of gamers with your critiques here.
Thank-you. It's interesting for me to see how similar some of our experiences are, especially because I remember how divergent of opinion and style of play people were "back in the day". Whether that means I've found my particular niche of an audience when it comes to gaming, or whether the differences weren't as great as I remember them being - I know not. I do know I'm having a ball revisiting these old games and settings with you all 🙂
There is the possibility of course that we "are" all grumpy old folk now :D but I for one am enjoying the presece of the grognard hivemind.@@WillyMuffinUK
I've been told that Tasslehoff emptying her (his? I dunno) pockets in one book near the end of a great adventure, and little reminders of everything they've been through, the places they've stopped, friends and enemies they met etc, was really well done. But doesn't really excuse the Kender-Player-Behavior. 5E's sanitized version of it where they're just likely to randomly have a needed tool without the stealing aspect of it, is maybe slightly better for reducing inter party drama, but doesn't have the potential for that one great scene.
That first way you recounted would be great - love that idea.
@@WillyMuffinUK Its apparently a scene in one of the later books but I don't remember when, I've not really read any of them yet.
I loved the Chronicles and Legends books, but I never played in the setting at all.
I think that sums up quite a few people's relationship with it. Out of interest, did you read any other DragonLance novels?
@@WillyMuffinUK I have! I read The Legend of Huma, Dragons of Summerflame and Kaz the Minotaur
@@Renkaru It's interesting to me. I've met a ton of folk that have read at least the Chronicles, but the number declines steeply beyond that. I don't know anyone that has read anywhere near all 160-odd DL novels (including me!)
I was waiting for this
I hope you find the wait worth it!
I only played one session of Dragonlance (so far). We didn’t get to any obscure deaths….
I imagine the obscure death rule in the main series of modules could lead to some funny gameplay, in a gruesome sort of way, with PCs thinking they’ve killed an important villain, finding them alive later (“yes, I fell down that cliff, but a flumph broke my fall”), and then the next time the PCs kill the villain and his body’s about to fall off a cliff again and the PCs grab the corpse to prevent its loss (“not this time buddy”), with the PCs taking gruesome actions to ensure the villain is dead this time (e.g. stabbing the villain multiple times after they seem dead), then finding the villain alive AGAIN (“ah yes, I am a rare case of a person with their heart on the right side”), and this time the PCs kill the villain and cut off the villain’s head to be sure…
then the villain returns (“luckily my head and body were found and stitched back together and I was resurrected by a passing evil cleric”)…
and the characters this time cut off the villain’s head, burn the body to ashes and bring the head with them to be absolutely sure… and then the villain returns again with another excuse (“actually, you killed my twin”), and so on…. 😜
The one time I tried using the obscure death concept in my campaign, the PCs lopped off their foe's head and carried it with them, "to prevent that sh** from happening again" 🤣
Personally, I prefer using a new enemy - even if they have suspiciously similar stats. I mean, the players don't get to see stats, so bunging a new name onto "Verminaard mk 2" is preferable to "you know you killed Verminaard earlier? Well..."
The part about creature power levels has me laughing at myself. I remember being shocked playing Everquest that they just used the orc skin and name around more powerful stat arrays. Made me think B2's caverns would have felt a lot more unified if D&D had used that trick.
I mean, you're not wrong. Even young kid me thought "Why haven't all these dudes invaded each other?" regarding B2.
Brass Copper Bronze is odd because in Greyhawk isn't the currency Brass-Bronze-Pure Copper-Silver-Electrum-Gold-something-platinum.
Something like that - can't quite recall off the top of my head, and I'm sure some of the coin names I'm thinking of are Lankhmarese.
@@WillyMuffinUK To be fair I'm going off Gord, which is post-company-coup. And also sorta Gary's F&GM tribute to a degree.
@@DIEGhostfish The first two Gord novels were published by TSR... Don't forget that!
@@WillyMuffinUK Oh sorry I'm new to all this and have my timeline of the drama all mixed up.
@@DIEGhostfish It is a tad convoluted.
Basically, Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil - first two Gord books - are TSR, then Sea of Death, Night Arrant, City of Hawks, Come Endless Darkness, and Dance of Demons are all New Infinities. Gygax lost the rights to some names, because they were TSR copyrights, so certain beings and places turn up in the New Infinities works with different names to the ones usually used in a D&D context - but most are easily figured out.
84-87 was a tad chaotic.
Great video! Twee books and setting, though. Yuk. Glad you brought up the origins of the railroad
Well, not every world can be a nuanced masterpiece 😉