As a boy I attended a muzzleloader match with my dad. I had considerable experience with my dad’s modern target rifles, but had never touched a black powder rifle. We had a long conversation with a man shooting an original 1861 Springfield. He laid out the situation much as you do in this video. I was fascinated. I’ve wanted a rifle musket ever since but have never managed to find the spare cash because I followed my dad into serious conventional rifle and pistol competition. That consumed all of my discretionary spending! Modern firearms have an important similarity to the reproduction muskets: If you want best accuracy, you’ll probably be buying a new barrel. My M1911 .45s for precision pistol and EIC competition both have replacement barrels (and other components) to produce consistent accuracy and function, so when I finally get that musket I’ve longed for since I was about 10 years old, I won’t flinch at the cost of replacing or lining the barrel to get the accuracy it should have. Thanks for a great explanation. Good work, as always.
Hello Brett! My name is Adrian and I shoot on Team Canada's Muzzle-Loading Black Powder Team! Your video has been an extreme "Ah-HAH!" moment for me. We follow M.L.A.I.C. rules, which are very stringent regarding the specifics and proper firearms to use. One of the main sponsors for the competitions is Pedersoli, so their rifles are very common among us "less well heeled" shooters, as Originals are quite pricey as you mentioned, especially in good enough condition to shoot accurately, constantly! After many years of trying to figure out why, despite all my efforts, loads and methods, I could NOT get accuracy from my Italian reproductions, I finally "Graduated" and invested into an original Springfield 1861 and Lorenz 1854. I was absolutely floored by the sudden accuracy. This video has likely solved that mystery for me. Hats off to you, and all the best! Keep up with this amazing channel, and you have earned my subscription! Speaking of accuracy mentioned, our requirements for the M.L.A.I.C. "Minie" Discipline, for example, is 100M Prone, and an expected accuracy of 85/100 or better, with World Champions scoring 95/100 regularly, out of 10 shots measured. Quite difficult. :)
This may be the most important video that you have ever made. I have struggled to get accuracy from my Euroarms carbine and rifle for years. I am not a member of NSSA, which I believe does not allow shooting with patched balls. I finally got some accuracy from shooting patched round balls, but found that my carbine and rifle have different size bores by a few thousandths of an inch, so must shoot different patch and ball combinations. I have always shot in club matches with patched round balls with my Hawken and Long Rifle, so it was not a big deal for me. For re-enactors shooting blanks, it does not make any difference. However I have always strived for accuracy with every gun in my collection. Thank you for helping newbies to understand this problem involving Italian reproductions.
Got a Pedersoli P53 some years ago. Shoots waaay high with patched round balls, so I ended up using .577 Minies over 70 grns of 2f, which I can easily get a 4 inch group at 100 yards with. Did try the Enfield cartridges, but unfortunately they only sort-of work with 3f powder. Understand the logistical realities the Italian companies face, but still sad you can't easily find progressive depth rifled barrels.
Mr. Paper Cartridges- Thanks for this clear essay on rifle-musket rifling. The weapon I bought many years ago was an 1863 Springfield reproduction from Navy Arms company, and while a very good looking and solid musket it did not shoot well. Also it leaded up the barrel badly using Minie bullets. I suspected that the bore was too rough and I got rid of it, but your explanation of the improper rifling has now opened my eyes to the real reason the Minie bullets gave poor accuracy back then. It's nice to clear up this old mystery about my Springfield! Bob
Mr. paper Cartridges- I must retract my saying that Navy Arms company provided my old Springfield musket, as my review of my records shows that this is wrong. I don't know any more for sure who sold the gun, but it wasn't Navy Arms. Sorry for misleading any readers. Bob
I have a four digit serial number Parker Hale 1858 two band Enfield made in Birmingham England. It has progressive rifling like an original it shoots very well. I had Bobby Hoyt line my 1855 barrel. I'd like to try the Pritchett cartridge in my Enfield.
I'm user and connoisseur of of modern competition target rifles, but I really enjoying your technical discussion of these 19th century rifles. You've compiled a vast array of arcane knowledge and are kind enough to keep it alive and share it with all of us. Huzzah!
After all my years of interest in rifle muskets, black powder, etc. (I'm not a BP shooter, although I'm thinking about it) this is the first I have heard of progressive rifling. Thank you.
The Parker and Hales built from 1974 -82 have no peer. Bench shooting those fire-sticks back in the day made a believer out of everyone involved...... Even the Whitworth out performed the original...... A machined Hex bullet dies exact to the original could reach out and touch.... We were able to press bullets to match the sharp point originals proved to take all the scores over the previous highs. The original Minnies and Pritchards were cast, and then pressed. Using pure lead is a must. Even in my 70's now, I can still 4" steel with a 3-Banded P&H with little trouble. The Musketoon has always been a match striker at 40 yards, and an egg/briquet killer at 50-75 yards.... The original Musketoon came with a tool, a book of musketry, a jacket patch, and a cleaning swab. I still have all the kit that came with all of them, including the boxes...... 20-15 vision helped out a lot too...... Nothing like a foggy report, clang of steel at distance and sound of sending a round down the barrel as the air is displaced through the correct rifling.....
This is all great information. 👍 It's really given me a lot of direction as to what brand and sort of rifle I need to keep an eye out for on the resale market.
I can honestly say I’ve never tried the trash can minié, but I heard a lot of folks talk about how great they are! I had a devil of a time getting my armi sport Enfield to shoot minie balls. I ended up using pure lead and packing the cavity with wax and that worked pretty well.
I use moderately soft cast lead, immersed in kitchen grade paraffin wax then run through a .575 sizing die. Driven by 60 gr Swiss 2f BP they perform well inside 100 yds. I haven't been able to test longer ranges unfortunately but at 50 yds I can score a 6 inch group (something is wrong with the rear sight that causesnit to shift a little each shot and I still haven't fixed it...) while at 100 yards I get a 12 to 16 inch group depending on lighting, which seems to be where my personal limitations begin to take effect. I believe the sight moves up to 1.5 mm so I concluded that my actual bullet drift at 50 yds is likely 2 inch dia. or a little less, and my 100 yds drift is likely 4.5 inch, though it may be less if that group larger than 12 inch is entirely my fault and not in any way contributed to by the rifle or ammo. Not a tack driver but it's extremely easy to run, and cheap so that trade seems acceptable for me given I'm not competing. I do hunt with it effectively.
have 2 springfields - one all original cut down - probably by some farmer and put a whitaker barrel on it ! it’s a dream to shoot / tack driver as he said !! The other is an original 1863 springfield musket - excellent shape - must have been used by a sentry in D C !!! :-) works like a charm !!Feel lucky to have both!!
My work around was to use the repro 1842 rifle musket which shoot RB paper cartridges just fine. Not perfectly correct, but workable. The biggest problem these days is nobody’s had any new stock since Cflu and every time I check it’s “out of stock, no back order”. Great vid!
Comments from a 40-year N-SSA competitor: 1. "N-SSA approved" merely means the Small Arms Committee accepts the shape as correct. Accuracy is not guaranteed. 2. The general experience has been that the original bullets or something very close work best. 3. Pure lead bullets. No alloys. Size to .001 below bore size. This is probably the biggest headache - a Minie ball will expand to engage the rifling, but there's a limit to what it will do. 4. The most accurate loads are often in the range of 45 grains of 3F.
Good to know! I recently picked an ArmiSport 1862 Richmond Musket repro from the Maryland Sutler on my second trip to Gettysburg- I'd been eyeing it for quite some time. It is my first percussion-style weapon. Looking forward to experimenting with it. Fingers crossed that the black powder gods are smiling down on me, eh?
Not disappointed at all. You have brought some very interesting facts to light. Luckily my only Pedersoli is a smooth bore. My other two rifled are original. Thanks for the video.
This makes total sense, I’ve never owned a repro rifle that shot well with minie balls, just my original Norris and Clement ‘63 shoots consistently. Keep the videos coming, they are nicely done
I grew up reenacting American Civil War in WV and 75% of guys at least had Italian repos because they were cheap and fine for that. A vast majority of them shot less than a dozen live loads from their reenacting rifles and none expected anything functionally past that from them. I'd suspect that's a vast majority of these Italian companies' customers and they also produce similar rifles for the European market so machinery is likely made adjustable at constant depth to allow switching between different products/production runs instead of dedicated machines like a serious military factory. They fill their niche I guess and allow a lot of people into the hobby, that hobby just isn't competitive black powder shooting or even much hunting for that matter
Interesting. I have been skeptical of my Armi-Sport 1861 Springfield's accuracy sense I first took it to the range. The mini balls were all over the place. I shoot a .577 mini ball and she will slide right down the barrel each time, but accuracy sucks after 100 meters. Now, I know why. But in the world today, you get what you get unless you can cough up a large chunk of money to make things right. Not many of us can simply do that.
If you want top accuracy, fit your bullets and load to your rifle, and not viceversa as this “expert “ is saying, and I warn that it will take time. It is not a matter or progressive rifling or not. It just not makes sense to buy loads designed for other rifle and expect yours to shoot them well, or expect your rifle to shoot well anything you load. It takes lots of time and experimenting to get that. This is muzzleloading.
@@Provo647 I tend to agree with you. Perhaps some of what he pointed out has merit, but it can be worked out. It just takes time and a bit of trial and error.
I don't own an authentic " Civil War historically correct weapon". I am glade you've enlightened us on the situation. I do shoot b\p metallic cartridges and enjoy. Tanx!
Reproduction implies a continuance of the original model as in the case of the Parker Hale , which used original gauges in the manufacturing versus a replica which only looks like an original .
Very informative. One of these days I plan on getting a black powder rifle, but probably won’t be shooting past 100 yards. So this is good to know. I still have a lot of research to do to know what I need to buy along with the rifle. It’s a whole new world for me, but I’ve always had a fascination with the traditional BP guns
I bought my Euroarms P53 30 years ago when I started reenacting. Now I’m in an N-SSA/ACWSA unit, and I must be blessed, because that Enfield repro shoots pretty well! I did put on a taller front sight, but I shoot period-style Miniés, with a 55 grain load of FFg. Now I’m thinking about sending my barrel to Bobby Hoyt to get that progressive depth rifling. Thanks for the info!
You are very correct in the Italian gun synopsis, but most people buy them for what they represent and feel the inaccuracy was inherent with the time they also represent. the inventory of originals and newer Parker Hales are somewhat limited to gun show finds or one off's. We have BP come all matches at the club, for a reasonable score or showing my choice is the Lyman .50 trade rifle with patched round ball. Also good video.
My euroarms two band 1853 is crap with minie's now I will try it with round ball. Now my Euroarms Cook Brothers carbine is dead on with minie's. I also have a old navy arms 1863 Springfield I have only fired blanks from. I will take it out and see how it does. great info thanks very much.
it's true but the replica is made with safe materials for fun. The originals are few in Italy, they are in museums. There are some more expensive original rifles on the market, but we don't know if they are safe. In shooting competitions we only use replicas because they are safe and easier to find. I know that many shooters have won world competitions with these replicas, but that's all I know.
My Armi-Sport shot well when I live-fired, got really nice accuracy in it so I lucked out, but I would like to modify it somehow, find a way to alter the rifling to be better.
this makes me even more smug about having a Parker Hale (they are a LOT cheaper here in the UK) however when I've tried round ball I would be better off with a smoothbore.
I’ll have to buy a reproduction and get it lined. I have a relic original(made 1862 with the soldier’s name on it that hangs on the wall and another original(made 1863) that has light surface patina. The nicer one has a very old tompion in it that was there when I bought it. The bore is mirror shiny up until where the tompion touches it. Slight discoloration there. The stock is basically new looking all markings on metal and wood on easily legible. Same color and condition to an 1888 trapdoor I have that was made in 1893. I fired the original 1861 springfield 2 shots only just to experience firing an original and cleaned it. Still mirror shiny bore but don’t want to shoot it anymore. How many rifles that old have bores like that? It’d be a shame to wear it out. Thanks fir the information. I’ll have to look up Mr. Hoyt I believe you said his name is.
Well, good timing. I actually am building an Enfield from “scratch” with a gunsmith pal. We already have the lock and stock ready, and currently looking for a barrel. Guess we’ll discard the idea lf getting a pedersoli one. Thanks!
Great info I found that traditional minis gave terribly poor accuracy. Since I can't use the historically correct bullet, I just used patched round balls. Now I know why that was necessary.
I emailed you about this a while ago about my '54 Springfield. I can never remember what brand it is, but it's a Chiappa now, because both companies (Eurosports and Interarms?) that made my Springfield replicas got bought out by Chiappa. :) The '54 was my favorite and my second blackpowder rifle. I got it on consignment at a store selling off a guy's recently inherited collection. His dad had bought over 450 guns, shot them at least once, and put them in a safe. The rifling on the '54 was so shallow, I thought it was a smoothbore until I did a deep clean with boiling water and used evaporust to get rid of the light rust in the bore. It's clean with no pitting. It's tight with patched roundballs at 50 yards. It opens up with "minie" balls at 50 and becomes more erratic than a drunk Kennedy on a country road at 100 yards. The rear sight leafs are just for looks...I lollipopped it on a gong at 100 yards and the bullet somehow arced up to land on top of the berm at 200 yards. I finally thought to look on Chiappa's site to confirm they recommend a patched round ball. My other Italian Springfield replica, a '61, has a bore too tight for the Lee .575" minie balls. I was going to order some of your Pritchett balls to try out when I had the extra cash, I'll wait until you get back. I have another style of .68" minie ball to try out in my '54 and if it doesn't work out, I'll use boring old roundballs in it like everybody else. :(
FWIW the slow twist on these rifle muskets and the reproduction shallow grooves are about that which the Forsyth system works out to for a 0,58” patched round ball. Save for the lands being wide and not narrow. OK out to 100 yards which is what Forsyth intended and makes use of a stiff charge. The original service Burton and Pritchett are still stabilising themselves at this sort of range.
Lots of great information in this video. It helps me understand my Armi Jager Zouave much better concerning constant depth rifling vs progressive depth rifling.
The other option would be to find a used repro rifle at a good price and turn that into a project with a liner or barrel swap. I'm usually not a black powder person outside of extremely oddball stuff like Afghan Jezail rifles, but I sympathize on the limited options.
Very interesting & informative discussion about original vs reproduction rifling! I had no clue! Years ago I got a T/C Hawken in .54 Cal. that had a rusty bore near the muzzle. I listemned to an experienced black powder co-worker & cleaned it up beautifully inside & out. Stupidly, I was jaded that the barrel was not pristine & got rid of it for what I purchased it for. I regret that I did Not keep it & shoot the heck out of it! Maybe someday I can get something else, like .577 Snider breachloading conversion to brass cartridges or a muzzleloader of some type. Thanks Brett for sharing your extensive knowledge of period correct muskets, rifles & paper cartridges! Blessings, Paul
cold hammer forged barrels with the mandrel already having the progressive depth rifling in it seems like would be able to be pumped out quickly and at high quality.
Excellent. I was in the NSSA in 1957-8. We used to shoot originals as in those years there were no reproductions - this was pre-Val Forgett. In our shoots it was always full 60 grains of 3Fg and blaze away like a bunch of youngsters. I applied to today's NSSA and they turned me down because I am too outspoken on current politics. I have a 1864 Colt with steel barrel. My father bought it for me as I was just 17 and still in school. It had a split wrist so my father fixed it with a teflon pin and sealed it up with epoxy. The rifle cost about $60 at the time and I shot the heck out it - much good fun. I also have a 1861 Mulherbe Belgian with a 36 inch barrel. It shoots too and is very accurate. I would like to go out and shoot these again. We used Lyman cast minie balls. Too much effeminacy in today's NSSA. Enjoy your hobby as long as it is legal.
"I applied to today's NSSA and they turned me down because I am too outspoken on current politics. " ..... "Too much effeminacy in today's NSSA." WTF does "too much effeminacy" even mean? Too many women? Too many people that were unwilling to hear your likely unhinged conspiracy theories and/or bigoted remarks? I guess we don't have wonder why you were tossed out.....maybe one day you can rejoin the human race when you decide to leave Q.
My 2 band Italian Enfield needed alot of experimentation on shooting mini balls I found a lee mold from probably the 70s .575 it is a really tight fit. But 65 grains and it works for me great I must have gotten the lucky one out of the batch.
Yeah, I have an Armi Sport, supposed Naval two band Enfield, that is supposed to have the improved fast twist barrel and it is fitted with a plain old shortened P53 slow twist, parallel groove barrel. It will only shoot the Lee REAL bullet and is only suitable for blank firing re-enacting. Now I know why! Thanks Bret.
Hi, first of all I wanted to say, that I really liked your video. Very interesting facts you brought to the table about the italian repros. Thanks alot mate. Thanks for all your work and the research you did😊. Sorry to tell you, that I am the type of guy that says "I get great accuracy with my pedersoli rifle and minie balls"😂 Just a quick breakdown. I'm a Black Powder shooter from germany and I own a model 1857 Württemberger Infanteriegewehr made by Pedersoli. I don't know if its imported to the US so I don't know if you have ever seen one in real life. It was first made by pedersoli in 1998 as a limited edition due to the aniversary of the Mauser Werke in Oberndorf. Pedersoli had an original 1857 given to them by Mauser Oberndorf to copy it. The copy they made is pretty close to the original. The only differences are the grooving of the rifeling is 0,051mm shallower than the original. Thats about 0.002 inch difference. The barrel is hammerforged and has a slightly different breech plug. The lock, stock and so on is pretty close to the original. I,m shooting with 505gr 13.89mm Minie Balls that are, lets say semi authentic. They are about 0,05mm smaller than bore diameter and its petty accurate at 50 and 100 meters. I fill the grooves with I tallow and beeswax. I also made some south german style paper cartridges with a 13,7mm undersize "authentic" minie ball. Its the same type of cartridge like the enfield cartridge with the greased paper patch bullet and the original south german charge of 67gr 2F. It works surpisingly well. I bet you know the YT Channel Cap and Ball. He gets pretty good results with Pedersoli Rifles and minie balls aswell. I dont want to sound clever cocky or like "Mr know it all". I'm not criticizing your work at all, it is brilliant😊. It' s just what I experienced with my Rifle and my fellow sportsmen at my shooting club. Best regards from germany and keep up that great work.
Sadly getting a repo Italian made rifle is probably the easiest option. While I’d love an original find one that’s in good condition proves difficult. I have a pedersoli and I’m happy that I can at least hit paper with it at 100 so it does for now. Getting a new barrel for it eventually sounds like a option I’d be ok with. Got to look into that eventually. Great video though! I’m glad to know this now. I was wondering how you got such good groups. Thanks for making this.
Thanks. I was planning to buy a Enfield or Springfield black powder weapon but your information has made me realize my intentions to shoot long ranges needs to have a new barrel or sleeved insert drilled for the progressive type grooves.
I got Pedersoli P58. with some try en error I found best load for me, 55 grns, 3F with 575 minie. On 200 to 300 m standing I constantly hiting the target. Mayby is not 2MOA but I hit the standard IPSC target.
My experience with pedersoli repro rifles is only with a repro trapdoor carbine. Your right about the shallow rifling, its practically only a thou deep. Funny enough is it loves the original carbine load and i can get sub 2 inch groups at 100 yards. But you right that it DEMANDS 10 brinnel (which is accurate to the original load) and needs atleast .460 sized bullets.
I’ve had decent success using minie balls in my armi sport, minute of deer accuracy at 50 yards, I doubt I would win any shooting matches with it though.
Pretty good, though long-winded article. Miroku made muskets for Navy Arms long years back. I set some records with mineat up to 200 yards sitting position. Also the other best modern musket I had was an early Colt re-issue special musket. Really awesome! Parker Hales have been very good, too. As he says, though, any Italian muskets I've had did not shoot very well. I've always had best results using the RCBS Minie with 60 gns Goex 2fg. I must admit I have never tried paper patched minies.
Thanks, I didn't realize this was what was going on at all. I have a Pedersoli Enfield and had to go through three different sets of Lee molds to find one that produced bullets that were tight enough to shoot okay out of it. I didn't realize this was why, but just thought it was weird that a rifle that I understood to be designed for military ammunition was so picky about what it would shoot.
Huh, that explains a lot. There's a significant advantage to using a Minie or similar old-style conical bullet, in that it makes loading much easier. I'm not fond of having to pound the ball in with a starter, which seems fairly universal with bullets that engrave on the way in. But evidently ease of manufacturing has pushed us toward that style, and very few people seem to have a problem with it.
No mention of bore size on repros. This varies all over. Most are not .577. I had a Euroarms 3 band Enfieldthat was a .583. Getting a Rapine mold in .582 finally made it shoot. The minies have to be as close to bore size as possible. Unfortunately Rapine is gone and I don't know of others making molds like this.
German man, Brittas boyfriend, pure armchair expert ( three shots.45 target rifle, three shots . 36 Duel Pistol). The italian company Pedersoli produces both copies of Lorenz and Württemberg Variation of Vereinsgewehr. In 1866 innergerman war ( basicly last german tribal war) Austria and his allies used , Süddeutsches Konventionskaliber 13, 9 mm'. The prepared paper cartridges could be in case of emergency used by austrian,
Excuse me, wrong Button! The paper cartridges could be used by austrian, bavarian, saxon,württembergian, badenian and hessia-darmstadtish troops. But Austrian and Saxon troops used Lorenz rifle, Bavarian troops Podewils rifle ( met descendants of Mr. von Podewils during an historical daytrip), and Württemberg, Baden and Hessen - Darmstadt the Vereinsgewehr in variants ( the Hessians wanted most different Variant). So the rifles had same caliber, the prepared paper cartridges could be used in emergency, but shape of bullet/ Powder Charge was a bit different, so using the paper cartridge of an Ally caused not allways a good result in precission. But i don' t think, that today exact copies of original Lorenz, Podewils or Vereinsgewehr bullets are available.
I get a lot of folks wanting help / advice on how to make their imported flintlocks shoot reliably. I have to tell them they need a custom built lock. They don’t want to hear that they bought an inferior product that was not designed to be reliable. The answer is much like your solution, custom work to bring the barrel up to proper standards. In the case of flintlocks, a custom made lock built to proper standards. Lots of folks just don’t like hearing it.
Basically if your buying a modern replica rifle it is a modern barrel. It is optimized for patched round ball because it's cheaper and easier for the manufacturer and it's a repro. None are an exact copy of an original
I think the Parker Hale repros were totally original in their manufacture, even going as far as using the original Enfield tool room standard gauges, not sure about the rifling though, but they do shoot very well, unfortunately Parker Hale no longer makes these and an Italian company took over their manufacture.
Very good video with sone excellent but unfortunate information. From what I know of barrel Rifling, it seems that the proper dimensions could be made with hammer forging? I know that is a very expensive process though.
Your videos are great! I have learned a lot of new things I never new! I do have some questions for you though, I just recently bought a Hawken .50 caliber rifle and I’m having trouble figuring out which powder load suits the ammunition I’m using. Currently I’m using .490 ball with a .010 patch with an 80 grain charge. I also shoot 380 grain Great Plains mini ball with the same charge. The rifling on the Hawken is stated to be 1 in 48”. The ball with pattern on paper at 50 yds with relatively consistent groupings, the mini however does not. Looking for some help, was wondering if you could?
I don't shoot this style rifle but lots of muzzleloaders one type in particular is green river rifle works which were notoriously accurate due to a somewhat choked barrel near the end of the barrel so your conversation made a lot of sense to me in that regard. Funny part is I just purchased a Gibbs for long range shooting but they win many matches in international competitions makes me wonder now what style rifling they have ?
My British made (Birmingham) Parker Hale shoots well with a pure lead, Parker Hale minie ball pushed by 50 grains of 3f. Ball sized .575. I also have a Japanese copy, of a 1863 Springfield, company name starts with Miour... The bore is big, .579, Parker Hale minie or a standard Springfield minie pushed by 60-65 grains of 3f, it does well in N-SSA. Most of us have had new front sight post/blades brazed on to the reproductions. Once the load and bullet size is figured out, it ain't making key holes. Then file down the front sight as you sight in. I am have to check into this "Chicken Bullet".
Daniel Whitaker is not only a machinist, he is an artisan. I love the barrel he made for my original 1851 Springfield. My Lee bullet mold produces 512gr Minié balls. Can you provide sources for lining my original barrel with progressive rifling?
Actually, the Swinburn Enfield 1853 barrels have five lands and grooves, with progressive depth rifling. Mine is an 1857 artillery carbine in .577 ( with a very short barrel, which is possibly the reason for the gain twist rifling. I don't know if the 3-band 1853 rifles had the same gain twist as my carbine) . It is very accurate at 100 yards with 520 grain hollow based lubricated conicals. I've shot a few original rifled muskets, but never a replica, so know nothing about those.
I am awaiting paperwork to get a muzzle loaded rifle( In England). I am considering a Parker hale volunteer .451. I would be grateful for your thoughts
Ah, this is why my Pedersoli Enfield p53 doesn't like .575 minies. I always used FFg WANO, and months of try and fail experiments revealed that anything less than 55gr simply doesn't make it to expand and bullet drops to the ground even at 50m aiming at the top of the standard 50x50cm target. Increasing it makes things a bit better, may be with the 65-68gr sweet spot. But after 13-15 shots I start seeing key holes. After 20-25 shots they became so bad so half shots can't hit the paper. But after 75gr I see keyholes almost instantly. I thought the skirt of the minies get ripped apart, but it is simply skipping my shallow grooves?? Changed few molds and realized that shortened minies sized .577 (looks like my barrel is .578 as it loads with no issues even after 20 shots) shots better with just 53-55gr. But shorened minies look terrible. I'm not a reenactor, but still, it would be nice at least to look authentic. So I have a question here then. Would it help to try PH minies (the ones with very shallow cavity) sized .577 with FFFg powder? These projectiles are heavy and quick push from the faster burned propellant should squeeze the soft lead enough to fill in the grooves. And shallow cavity will not allow it to deform badly? Also I didn't get the idea with the original Enfield cartridges. They are using the plugs, right? So smaller but faster charge of FFFg should also push the plug into the bullet to expand and grip the rifling tight, but not be strong enough to make it skip the rifling later?
Same here. I tried various versions of Brett's P53 Enfield cartridges and also cast Minies of various diameters. I tried Williams Type II and Type III cleaner bullets. And multiple charge sizes. And multiple lubes. I finally just gave up. My Pedersoli P53 3-band just insisted on poor accuracy at any distance or just plain keyholes. In some cases, with the paper patched Enfield cartridges, I could not even get a keyhole on the target. The Pedersoli was just overhand tossing them down the range or something.... I sold it off. I could not deal with it any longer. It never occurred to me to try a patched round ball, but even if it had I would have STILL sold it because what is the point of owning an expensive replica that cannot shoot the correct historical load? GRRRR.
It would be interesting to run a test at a NSSA match to see if the units are using repros or originals. I used a P53 Enfield at NSSA events and it shot very well. I switched to a 63 Springfield repro and it shot well too. The only issue was that due to the P53 having a straight stock, the aiming point was different from the Springfield.
It's a mix with say 50/50. Those generally with reproductions either have bobby Hoyt in PA reline the barrel or Dan Whitacre in Winchester VA completely make a new one with progressive depth rifling copying the same profile of the barrel of said firearm type. Or in the case of an original it may be relined, or a new barrel made. As an example I'm having Whitacre make me a barrel for an 1841 Mississippi ( Original ) that I dropped off at the 150th nationals.
Wow. This is indeed an interesting video. I was tossing up whether to buy a reproduction, or get an original rifle in good, usable condition. I wound up buying an original, Hay Patent Enfield in .557 (a very rare "improved" model of the 1853 Enfield). Haven't shot it yet (it needs a replacement spring in the lock), but the barrel and stock are in great condition. I'm now thanking my lucky stars that I went for an original. Thanks for the information. PS: I still want to get a Pedersoli, flintlock, Frontier type rifle shooting patched ball ammunition. If I understood this video adequately, then reproduction ball ammo muzzle loaders should still shoot at something approaching historic standards.
Though I would suggest trying a Kibler kit as they have SMR, Woods runner, Colonial American both smooth and rifled, and recently came out with a fowler. Made in Ohio, combine it with a L&R lock.
My Pedersoli 1861 Springfield shoots very accurately IF you drop your point of aim 5 to 6 inches low with a 50 gr powder charge and a .570 PRB... I have not been able to get it to shoot .575 Minie balls with any accuracy at all however, still hoping to find that MAGIC combo maybe a .578 Parker Hale Minie ball and a 50 gr powder charge + dropping my POA 5 to 6 inches , keeping my fingers crossed, anyway it's accurate with PRB's so I'll take that for now!
i had an idea, remove the breach plug and machine down the rifling to create a larger free bore. the bullet would bullet would expand to a larger size than the bore and then be swaged down by a shallow lead and the rifling.
I guess I got doubly lucky. I've got a Perderoli 1861 Springfield and P53 and both shoot a .575 Minie' style bullet reasonably well using 60 grns of 2fg. I wouldn't call them tick drivers, but I can consistently hit an 8" steel plate at 100 yards in a resting position.
I found a couple of web sites that will install a historically correct progressive rifled barrel onto my replica '54 Springfield, it will cost about $800 to include a dovetailed front sight, the installation of my original ladder sights on the rear, and lose my bayonet lug. I only paid $250 for it and the guy threw in the bayonet. They install their own breechplug, machining it to match my stock so I get the original barrel back, in case I want to swap barrels to use the bayonet. :)
I would say the leaded skirt in a progressive rifled barrel maybe is Progressively Sweaged as the Lead of the Minie ball Skirt? is like a Progressive Forcing Cone or a Hammer and Anvil with charge as Hammer, Barrel as Avil. I never knew Progressive Rifling was Such a Big Part of Martial Arms of this period? THANKS! MAKES TOTALLY Logical Sense! I thought "I do" Just as Well with my period Muskets?? but my modern .50's are Drill Presses! but for my errors in loading, or other variables. I do need to try my new batch of 99.9 pure mill cirt lead I found local less than $1lb. lube minie's. the BP gods smiled.
I read somewhere that patched round balls get flung out all over the place with these guns. I have a Armi Sport rifled m1842 that I need to get figured out for deer season.
The truth doesn't always make me happy but a lie never does.
Thanks for the straight scoop.
As a reenactor, who only shoots powder and never a ball, I'd never known of this till now!
Great Info!
😅
As a boy I attended a muzzleloader match with my dad. I had considerable experience with my dad’s modern target rifles, but had never touched a black powder rifle. We had a long conversation with a man shooting an original 1861 Springfield. He laid out the situation much as you do in this video. I was fascinated.
I’ve wanted a rifle musket ever since but have never managed to find the spare cash because I followed my dad into serious conventional rifle and pistol competition. That consumed all of my discretionary spending!
Modern firearms have an important similarity to the reproduction muskets: If you want best accuracy, you’ll probably be buying a new barrel. My M1911 .45s for precision pistol and EIC competition both have replacement barrels (and other components) to produce consistent accuracy and function, so when I finally get that musket I’ve longed for since I was about 10 years old, I won’t flinch at the cost of replacing or lining the barrel to get the accuracy it should have.
Thanks for a great explanation. Good work, as always.
Hello Brett! My name is Adrian and I shoot on Team Canada's Muzzle-Loading Black Powder Team! Your video has been an extreme "Ah-HAH!" moment for me. We follow M.L.A.I.C. rules, which are very stringent regarding the specifics and proper firearms to use. One of the main sponsors for the competitions is Pedersoli, so their rifles are very common among us "less well heeled" shooters, as Originals are quite pricey as you mentioned, especially in good enough condition to shoot accurately, constantly! After many years of trying to figure out why, despite all my efforts, loads and methods, I could NOT get accuracy from my Italian reproductions, I finally "Graduated" and invested into an original Springfield 1861 and Lorenz 1854. I was absolutely floored by the sudden accuracy. This video has likely solved that mystery for me. Hats off to you, and all the best! Keep up with this amazing channel, and you have earned my subscription! Speaking of accuracy mentioned, our requirements for the M.L.A.I.C. "Minie" Discipline, for example, is 100M Prone, and an expected accuracy of 85/100 or better, with World Champions scoring 95/100 regularly, out of 10 shots measured. Quite difficult. :)
Been a civil war buff all my life and learned something new. Thanks
This may be the most important video that you have ever made. I have struggled to get accuracy from my Euroarms carbine and rifle for years. I am not a member of NSSA, which I believe does not allow shooting with patched balls. I finally got some accuracy from shooting patched round balls, but found that my carbine and rifle have different size bores by a few thousandths of an inch, so must shoot different patch and ball combinations. I have always shot in club matches with patched round balls with my Hawken and Long Rifle, so it was not a big deal for me. For re-enactors shooting blanks, it does not make any difference. However I have always strived for accuracy with every gun in my collection. Thank you for helping newbies to understand this problem involving Italian reproductions.
me too!
Got a Pedersoli P53 some years ago. Shoots waaay high with patched round balls, so I ended up using .577 Minies over 70 grns of 2f, which I can easily get a 4 inch group at 100 yards with. Did try the Enfield cartridges, but unfortunately they only sort-of work with 3f powder. Understand the logistical realities the Italian companies face, but still sad you can't easily find progressive depth rifled barrels.
This explains why my reproduction RX7 has a 327 V8.
Lol
Mr. Paper Cartridges- Thanks for this clear essay on rifle-musket rifling. The weapon I bought many years ago was an 1863 Springfield reproduction from Navy Arms company, and while a very good looking and solid musket it did not shoot well. Also it leaded up the barrel badly using Minie bullets. I suspected that the bore was too rough and I got rid of it, but your explanation of the improper rifling has now opened my eyes to the real reason the Minie bullets gave poor accuracy back then. It's nice to clear up this old mystery about my Springfield! Bob
Mr. paper Cartridges- I must retract my saying that Navy Arms company provided my old Springfield musket, as my review of my records shows that this is wrong. I don't know any more for sure who sold the gun, but it wasn't Navy Arms. Sorry for misleading any readers. Bob
I have a four digit serial number Parker Hale 1858 two band Enfield made in Birmingham England. It has progressive rifling like an original it shoots very well. I had Bobby Hoyt line my 1855 barrel. I'd like to try the Pritchett cartridge in my Enfield.
I'm user and connoisseur of of modern competition target rifles, but I really enjoying your technical discussion of these 19th century rifles. You've compiled a vast array of arcane knowledge and are kind enough to keep it alive and share it with all of us. Huzzah!
After all my years of interest in rifle muskets, black powder, etc. (I'm not a BP shooter, although I'm thinking about it) this is the first I have heard of progressive rifling. Thank you.
The Parker and Hales built from 1974 -82 have no peer. Bench shooting those fire-sticks back in the day made a believer out of everyone involved...... Even the Whitworth out performed the original...... A machined Hex bullet dies exact to the original could reach out and touch.... We were able to press bullets to match the sharp point originals proved to take all the scores over the previous highs. The original Minnies and Pritchards were cast, and then pressed. Using pure lead is a must. Even in my 70's now, I can still 4" steel with a 3-Banded P&H with little trouble. The Musketoon has always been a match striker at 40 yards, and an egg/briquet killer at 50-75 yards.... The original Musketoon came with a tool, a book of musketry, a jacket patch, and a cleaning swab. I still have all the kit that came with all of them, including the boxes...... 20-15 vision helped out a lot too...... Nothing like a foggy report, clang of steel at distance and sound of sending a round down the barrel as the air is displaced through the correct rifling.....
This is all great information. 👍
It's really given me a lot of direction as to what brand and sort of rifle I need to keep an eye out for on the resale market.
How can you not give this video a like and a thumbs up, just for the pure honesty?!
I can honestly say I’ve never tried the trash can minié, but I heard a lot of folks talk about how great they are! I had a devil of a time getting my armi sport Enfield to shoot minie balls. I ended up using pure lead and packing the cavity with wax and that worked pretty well.
Try using Crisco fill up the cavity .
Are Jim kibler rifles progressively rifled?
@@kenthatfield4287 no
I use moderately soft cast lead, immersed in kitchen grade paraffin wax then run through a .575 sizing die. Driven by 60 gr Swiss 2f BP they perform well inside 100 yds. I haven't been able to test longer ranges unfortunately but at 50 yds I can score a 6 inch group (something is wrong with the rear sight that causesnit to shift a little each shot and I still haven't fixed it...) while at 100 yards I get a 12 to 16 inch group depending on lighting, which seems to be where my personal limitations begin to take effect. I believe the sight moves up to 1.5 mm so I concluded that my actual bullet drift at 50 yds is likely 2 inch dia. or a little less, and my 100 yds drift is likely 4.5 inch, though it may be less if that group larger than 12 inch is entirely my fault and not in any way contributed to by the rifle or ammo. Not a tack driver but it's extremely easy to run, and cheap so that trade seems acceptable for me given I'm not competing. I do hunt with it effectively.
have 2 springfields - one all original cut down - probably by some farmer and put a whitaker barrel on it ! it’s a dream to shoot / tack driver as he said !! The other is an original 1863 springfield musket - excellent shape - must have been used by a sentry in D C !!! :-) works like a charm !!Feel lucky to have both!!
My work around was to use the repro 1842 rifle musket which shoot RB paper cartridges just fine. Not perfectly correct, but workable. The biggest problem these days is nobody’s had any new stock since Cflu and every time I check it’s “out of stock, no back order”. Great vid!
Comments from a 40-year N-SSA competitor:
1. "N-SSA approved" merely means the Small Arms Committee accepts the shape as correct. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
2. The general experience has been that the original bullets or something very close work best.
3. Pure lead bullets. No alloys. Size to .001 below bore size. This is probably the biggest headache - a Minie ball will expand to engage the rifling, but there's a limit to what it will do.
4. The most accurate loads are often in the range of 45 grains of 3F.
Good to know! I recently picked an ArmiSport 1862 Richmond Musket repro from the Maryland Sutler on my second trip to Gettysburg- I'd been eyeing it for quite some time. It is my first percussion-style weapon. Looking forward to experimenting with it. Fingers crossed that the black powder gods are smiling down on me, eh?
Not disappointed at all. You have brought some very interesting facts to light. Luckily my only Pedersoli is a smooth bore. My other two rifled are original. Thanks for the video.
This makes total sense, I’ve never owned a repro rifle that shot well with minie balls, just my original Norris and Clement ‘63 shoots consistently. Keep the videos coming, they are nicely done
I grew up reenacting American Civil War in WV and 75% of guys at least had Italian repos because they were cheap and fine for that. A vast majority of them shot less than a dozen live loads from their reenacting rifles and none expected anything functionally past that from them. I'd suspect that's a vast majority of these Italian companies' customers and they also produce similar rifles for the European market so machinery is likely made adjustable at constant depth to allow switching between different products/production runs instead of dedicated machines like a serious military factory.
They fill their niche I guess and allow a lot of people into the hobby, that hobby just isn't competitive black powder shooting or even much hunting for that matter
Interesting. I have been skeptical of my Armi-Sport 1861 Springfield's accuracy sense I first took it to the range. The mini balls were all over the place. I shoot a .577 mini ball and she will slide right down the barrel each time, but accuracy sucks after 100 meters. Now, I know why. But in the world today, you get what you get unless you can cough up a large chunk of money to make things right. Not many of us can simply do that.
If you want top accuracy, fit your bullets and load to your rifle, and not viceversa as this “expert “ is saying, and I warn that it will take time. It is not a matter or progressive rifling or not. It just not makes sense to buy loads designed for other rifle and expect yours to shoot them well, or expect your rifle to shoot well anything you load. It takes lots of time and experimenting to get that. This is muzzleloading.
@@Provo647 I tend to agree with you. Perhaps some of what he pointed out has merit, but it can be worked out. It just takes time and a bit of trial and error.
As always, I completely agree with our favorite "pseudo-expert"
I don't own an authentic " Civil War historically correct weapon". I am glade you've enlightened us on the situation. I do shoot b\p metallic cartridges and enjoy. Tanx!
Reproduction implies a continuance of the original model as in the case of the Parker Hale , which used original gauges in the manufacturing versus a replica which only looks like an original .
Very informative. One of these days I plan on getting a black powder rifle, but probably won’t be shooting past 100 yards. So this is good to know. I still have a lot of research to do to know what I need to buy along with the rifle. It’s a whole new world for me, but I’ve always had a fascination with the traditional BP guns
A link or contact information to the 2 barrel fix guys would be nice.
Have you seen the AEA Zeus? I purposely bought it to have an air powered musket, essentially.
It is a monster 1082 grain .729 ammo.
I bought my Euroarms P53 30 years ago when I started reenacting. Now I’m in an N-SSA/ACWSA unit, and I must be blessed, because that Enfield repro shoots pretty well! I did put on a taller front sight, but I shoot period-style Miniés, with a 55 grain load of FFg. Now I’m thinking about sending my barrel to Bobby Hoyt to get that progressive depth rifling. Thanks for the info!
You are very correct in the Italian gun synopsis, but most people buy them for what they represent and feel the inaccuracy was inherent with the time they also represent. the inventory of originals and newer Parker Hales are somewhat limited to gun show finds or one off's.
We have BP come all matches at the club, for a reasonable score or showing my choice is the Lyman .50 trade rifle with patched round ball. Also good video.
My euroarms two band 1853 is crap with minie's now I will try it with round ball. Now my Euroarms Cook Brothers carbine is dead on with minie's. I also have a old navy arms 1863 Springfield I have only fired blanks from. I will take it out and see how it does. great info thanks very much.
it's true but the replica is made with safe materials for fun. The originals are few in Italy, they are in museums. There are some more expensive original rifles on the market, but we don't know if they are safe. In shooting competitions we only use replicas because they are safe and easier to find. I know that many shooters have won world competitions with these replicas, but that's all I know.
Replacement barrels are available.
@@Losantivillewhere from?
@@MyYTchannel.thenationalrazor Robert Hoyt , Pa , Whitaere's Machine Shop
I was lucky to find a Parker Hale P53 in a small town gun show in central Alberta. Used, and some wear, but still shoots straight with military ammo.
The truth will set you free, good information
Thanks. I have had work done by Mr. Hoyt as well. Excellent fellow.
My Armi-Sport shot well when I live-fired, got really nice accuracy in it so I lucked out, but I would like to modify it somehow, find a way to alter the rifling to be better.
this makes me even more smug about having a Parker Hale (they are a LOT cheaper here in the UK) however when I've tried round ball I would be better off with a smoothbore.
I’ll have to buy a reproduction and get it lined. I have a relic original(made 1862 with the soldier’s name on it that hangs on the wall and another original(made 1863) that has light surface patina. The nicer one has a very old tompion in it that was there when I bought it. The bore is mirror shiny up until where the tompion touches it. Slight discoloration there. The stock is basically new looking all markings on metal and wood on easily legible. Same color and condition to an 1888 trapdoor I have that was made in 1893. I fired the original 1861 springfield 2 shots only just to experience firing an original and cleaned it. Still mirror shiny bore but don’t want to shoot it anymore. How many rifles that old have bores like that? It’d be a shame to wear it out. Thanks fir the information. I’ll have to look up Mr. Hoyt I believe you said his name is.
Well, good timing. I actually am building an Enfield from “scratch” with a gunsmith pal. We already have the lock and stock ready, and currently looking for a barrel. Guess we’ll discard the idea lf getting a pedersoli one. Thanks!
Great info I found that traditional minis gave terribly poor accuracy. Since I can't use the historically correct bullet, I just used patched round balls. Now I know why that was necessary.
I emailed you about this a while ago about my '54 Springfield. I can never remember what brand it is, but it's a Chiappa now, because both companies (Eurosports and Interarms?) that made my Springfield replicas got bought out by Chiappa. :)
The '54 was my favorite and my second blackpowder rifle. I got it on consignment at a store selling off a guy's recently inherited collection. His dad had bought over 450 guns, shot them at least once, and put them in a safe. The rifling on the '54 was so shallow, I thought it was a smoothbore until I did a deep clean with boiling water and used evaporust to get rid of the light rust in the bore. It's clean with no pitting. It's tight with patched roundballs at 50 yards. It opens up with "minie" balls at 50 and becomes more erratic than a drunk Kennedy on a country road at 100 yards. The rear sight leafs are just for looks...I lollipopped it on a gong at 100 yards and the bullet somehow arced up to land on top of the berm at 200 yards. I finally thought to look on Chiappa's site to confirm they recommend a patched round ball.
My other Italian Springfield replica, a '61, has a bore too tight for the Lee .575" minie balls. I was going to order some of your Pritchett balls to try out when I had the extra cash, I'll wait until you get back. I have another style of .68" minie ball to try out in my '54 and if it doesn't work out, I'll use boring old roundballs in it like everybody else. :(
FWIW the slow twist on these rifle muskets and the reproduction shallow grooves are about that which the Forsyth system works out to for a 0,58” patched round ball. Save for the lands being wide and not narrow. OK out to 100 yards which is what Forsyth intended and makes use of a stiff charge. The original service Burton and Pritchett are still stabilising themselves at this sort of range.
Lots of great information in this video. It helps me understand my Armi Jager Zouave much better concerning constant depth rifling vs progressive depth rifling.
The other option would be to find a used repro rifle at a good price and turn that into a project with a liner or barrel swap. I'm usually not a black powder person outside of extremely oddball stuff like Afghan Jezail rifles, but I sympathize on the limited options.
Oh buddy, I really felt this one came from the heart.
Very interesting & informative discussion about original vs reproduction rifling! I had no clue!
Years ago I got a T/C Hawken in .54 Cal. that had a rusty bore near the muzzle. I listemned to an experienced black powder co-worker & cleaned it up beautifully inside & out. Stupidly, I was jaded that the barrel was not pristine & got rid of it for what I purchased it for. I regret that I did Not keep it & shoot the heck out of it! Maybe someday I can get something else, like .577 Snider breachloading conversion to brass cartridges or a muzzleloader of some type. Thanks Brett for sharing your extensive knowledge of period correct muskets, rifles & paper cartridges! Blessings, Paul
Stopped firing my original '61 after the cap set the stock on fire. So after owning a few repros I built my own using repro and original parts.
cold hammer forged barrels with the mandrel already having the progressive depth rifling in it seems like would be able to be pumped out quickly and at high quality.
Excellent. I was in the NSSA in 1957-8. We used to shoot originals as in those years there were no reproductions - this was pre-Val Forgett. In our shoots it was always full 60 grains of 3Fg and blaze away like a bunch of youngsters. I applied to today's NSSA and they turned me down because I am too outspoken on current politics. I have a 1864 Colt with steel barrel. My father bought it for me as I was just 17 and still in school. It had a split wrist so my father fixed it with a teflon pin and sealed it up with epoxy. The rifle cost about $60 at the time and I shot the heck out it - much good fun. I also have a 1861 Mulherbe Belgian with a 36 inch barrel. It shoots too and is very accurate. I would like to go out and shoot these again. We used Lyman cast minie balls. Too much effeminacy in today's NSSA. Enjoy your hobby as long as it is legal.
"I applied to today's NSSA and they turned me down because I am too outspoken on current politics. "
..... "Too much effeminacy in today's NSSA."
WTF does "too much effeminacy" even mean? Too many women? Too many people that were unwilling to hear your likely unhinged conspiracy theories and/or bigoted remarks?
I guess we don't have wonder why you were tossed out.....maybe one day you can rejoin the human race when you decide to leave Q.
As someone looking to get into rifled musket shooting this is very helpful. Thanks a bunch for the info
So I have to build mine home!
Thank you for all Informations.
My 2 band Italian Enfield needed alot of experimentation on shooting mini balls I found a lee mold from probably the 70s .575 it is a really tight fit. But 65 grains and it works for me great I must have gotten the lucky one out of the batch.
Appreciate your frankness 😎👍
Yeah, I have an Armi Sport, supposed Naval two band Enfield, that is supposed to have the improved fast twist barrel and it is fitted with a plain old shortened P53 slow twist, parallel groove barrel. It will only shoot the Lee REAL bullet and is only suitable for blank firing re-enacting. Now I know why! Thanks Bret.
Hi, first of all I wanted to say, that I really liked your video.
Very interesting facts you brought to the table about the italian repros. Thanks alot mate. Thanks for all your work and the research you did😊. Sorry to tell you, that I am the type of guy that says "I get great accuracy with my pedersoli rifle and minie balls"😂
Just a quick breakdown. I'm a Black Powder shooter from germany and I own a model 1857 Württemberger Infanteriegewehr made by Pedersoli. I don't know if its imported to the US so I don't know if you have ever seen one in real life. It was first made by pedersoli in 1998 as a limited edition due to the aniversary of the Mauser Werke in Oberndorf. Pedersoli had an original 1857 given to them by Mauser Oberndorf to copy it. The copy they made is pretty close to the original. The only differences are the grooving of the rifeling is 0,051mm shallower than the original. Thats about 0.002 inch difference. The barrel is hammerforged and has a slightly different breech plug. The lock, stock and so on is pretty close to the original.
I,m shooting with 505gr 13.89mm Minie Balls that are, lets say semi authentic. They are about 0,05mm smaller than bore diameter and its petty accurate at 50 and 100 meters. I fill the grooves with I tallow and beeswax. I also made some south german style paper cartridges with a 13,7mm undersize "authentic" minie ball. Its the same type of cartridge like the enfield cartridge with the greased paper patch bullet and the original south german charge of 67gr 2F. It works surpisingly well.
I bet you know the YT Channel Cap and Ball. He gets pretty good results with Pedersoli Rifles and minie balls aswell.
I dont want to sound clever cocky or like "Mr know it all". I'm not criticizing your work at all, it is brilliant😊. It' s just what I experienced with my Rifle and my fellow sportsmen at my shooting club.
Best regards from germany and keep up that great work.
Wait..what? Did he say “a 1 in 6 foot twist”?
Sadly getting a repo Italian made rifle is probably the easiest option. While I’d love an original find one that’s in good condition proves difficult. I have a pedersoli and I’m happy that I can at least hit paper with it at 100 so it does for now. Getting a new barrel for it eventually sounds like a option I’d be ok with. Got to look into that eventually.
Great video though! I’m glad to know this now. I was wondering how you got such good groups. Thanks for making this.
Thanks. I was planning to buy a Enfield or Springfield black powder weapon but your information has made me realize my intentions to shoot long ranges needs to have a new barrel or sleeved insert drilled for the progressive type grooves.
I got Pedersoli P58. with some try en error I found best load for me, 55 grns, 3F with 575 minie. On 200 to 300 m standing I constantly hiting the target. Mayby is not 2MOA but I hit the standard IPSC target.
My experience with pedersoli repro rifles is only with a repro trapdoor carbine. Your right about the shallow rifling, its practically only a thou deep. Funny enough is it loves the original carbine load and i can get sub 2 inch groups at 100 yards. But you right that it DEMANDS 10 brinnel (which is accurate to the original load) and needs atleast .460 sized bullets.
Excellent vid my friend, I just hope these guys are still around when my enfield comes in
I’ve had decent success using minie balls in my armi sport, minute of deer accuracy at 50 yards, I doubt I would win any shooting matches with it though.
Thanks for the warning.
Pretty good, though long-winded article. Miroku made muskets for Navy Arms long years back. I set some records with mineat up to 200 yards sitting position. Also the other best modern musket I had was an early Colt re-issue special musket. Really awesome! Parker Hales have been very good, too.
As he says, though, any Italian muskets I've had did not shoot very well. I've always had best results using the RCBS Minie with 60 gns Goex 2fg. I must admit I have never tried paper patched minies.
Everything on this channel is long winded. Just how I am! Miroku rifles were awesome. I had one and sold it like an idiot.
Who has compared the older Birmingham Parker Hales to the later Italian Parker Hales? Hoe do they perform?
Thanks, I didn't realize this was what was going on at all. I have a Pedersoli Enfield and had to go through three different sets of Lee molds to find one that produced bullets that were tight enough to shoot okay out of it. I didn't realize this was why, but just thought it was weird that a rifle that I understood to be designed for military ammunition was so picky about what it would shoot.
Im a retired machinist what you say makes absolute sense your dead on
Huh, that explains a lot. There's a significant advantage to using a Minie or similar old-style conical bullet, in that it makes loading much easier. I'm not fond of having to pound the ball in with a starter, which seems fairly universal with bullets that engrave on the way in. But evidently ease of manufacturing has pushed us toward that style, and very few people seem to have a problem with it.
No mention of bore size on repros. This varies all over. Most are not .577. I had a Euroarms 3 band Enfieldthat was a .583. Getting a Rapine mold in .582 finally made it shoot. The minies
have to be as close to bore size as possible. Unfortunately Rapine is gone and I don't know of others making molds like this.
German man, Brittas boyfriend, pure armchair expert ( three shots.45 target rifle, three shots . 36 Duel Pistol). The italian company Pedersoli produces both copies of Lorenz and Württemberg Variation of Vereinsgewehr. In 1866 innergerman war ( basicly last german tribal war) Austria and his allies used , Süddeutsches Konventionskaliber 13, 9 mm'. The prepared paper cartridges could be in case of emergency used by austrian,
Excuse me, wrong Button! The paper cartridges could be used by austrian, bavarian, saxon,württembergian, badenian and hessia-darmstadtish troops. But Austrian and Saxon troops used Lorenz rifle, Bavarian troops Podewils rifle ( met descendants of Mr. von Podewils during an historical daytrip), and Württemberg, Baden and Hessen - Darmstadt the Vereinsgewehr in variants ( the Hessians wanted most different Variant). So the rifles had same caliber, the prepared paper cartridges could be used in emergency, but shape of bullet/ Powder Charge was a bit different, so using the paper cartridge of an Ally caused not allways a good result in precission. But i don' t think, that today exact copies of original Lorenz, Podewils or Vereinsgewehr bullets are available.
I get a lot of folks wanting help / advice on how to make their imported flintlocks shoot reliably. I have to tell them they need a custom built lock. They don’t want to hear that they bought an inferior product that was not designed to be reliable. The answer is much like your solution, custom work to bring the barrel up to proper standards. In the case of flintlocks, a custom made lock built to proper standards. Lots of folks just don’t like hearing it.
Basically if your buying a modern replica rifle it is a modern barrel. It is optimized for patched round ball because it's cheaper and easier for the manufacturer and it's a repro. None are an exact copy of an original
I think the Parker Hale repros were totally original in their manufacture, even going as far as using the original Enfield tool room standard gauges, not sure about the rifling though, but they do shoot very well, unfortunately Parker Hale no longer makes these and an Italian company took over their manufacture.
Forewarned is forearmed. Thanks for the info!
Very good video with sone excellent but unfortunate information.
From what I know of barrel
Rifling, it seems that the proper dimensions could be made with hammer forging? I know that is a very expensive process though.
Your videos are great! I have learned a lot of new things I never new! I do have some questions for you though, I just recently bought a Hawken .50 caliber rifle and I’m having trouble figuring out which powder load suits the ammunition I’m using. Currently I’m using .490 ball with a .010 patch with an 80 grain charge. I also shoot 380 grain Great Plains mini ball with the same charge. The rifling on the Hawken is stated to be 1 in 48”. The ball with pattern on paper at 50 yds with relatively consistent groupings, the mini however does not. Looking for some help, was wondering if you could?
The charge may be too heavy for the Minie. Try backing it down to 50 grains. Even in the .58 cal military rifle the charge was only 60 grains.
Thank you I will try it the next time I head to the range.
I don't shoot this style rifle but lots of muzzleloaders one type in particular is green river rifle works which were notoriously accurate due to a somewhat choked barrel near the end of the barrel so your conversation made a lot of sense to me in that regard. Funny part is I just purchased a Gibbs for long range shooting but they win many matches in international competitions makes me wonder now what style rifling they have ?
The truth is never sad mate. Good information
My British made (Birmingham) Parker Hale shoots well with a pure lead, Parker Hale minie ball pushed by 50 grains of 3f. Ball sized .575. I also have a Japanese copy, of a 1863 Springfield, company name starts with Miour... The bore is big, .579, Parker Hale minie or a standard Springfield minie pushed by 60-65 grains of 3f, it does well in N-SSA. Most of us have had new front sight post/blades brazed on to the reproductions. Once the load and bullet size is figured out, it ain't making key holes. Then file down the front sight as you sight in. I am have to check into this "Chicken Bullet".
Miroku.
Thank you. I am the 2ed owner and it has been defarbed by Lodgewood, so the name was gone.@@Hammerli280
Daniel Whitaker is not only a machinist, he is an artisan. I love the barrel he made for my original 1851 Springfield. My Lee bullet mold produces 512gr Minié balls. Can you provide sources for lining my original barrel with progressive rifling?
Try Bobby Hoyt, you may need to search around to find his phone number. He doesn’t have a website.
@@papercartridges6705 Thanks a bunch for your quick response.
Actually, the Swinburn Enfield 1853 barrels have five lands and grooves, with progressive depth rifling. Mine is an 1857 artillery carbine in .577 ( with a very short barrel, which is possibly the reason for the gain twist rifling. I don't know if the 3-band 1853 rifles had the same gain twist as my carbine) . It is very accurate at 100 yards with 520 grain hollow based lubricated conicals. I've shot a few original rifled muskets, but never a replica, so know nothing about those.
Wow, this video was an education. Thank you for sharing your experience!
I am awaiting paperwork to get a muzzle loaded rifle( In England). I am considering a Parker hale volunteer .451. I would be grateful for your thoughts
my springfield has good accruacy at 100 yards with .577 minie balls i dont have anywhere safe where i could shoot further so im not beat up about it.
Ah, this is why my Pedersoli Enfield p53 doesn't like .575 minies. I always used FFg WANO, and months of try and fail experiments revealed that anything less than 55gr simply doesn't make it to expand and bullet drops to the ground even at 50m aiming at the top of the standard 50x50cm target. Increasing it makes things a bit better, may be with the 65-68gr sweet spot. But after 13-15 shots I start seeing key holes. After 20-25 shots they became so bad so half shots can't hit the paper. But after 75gr I see keyholes almost instantly. I thought the skirt of the minies get ripped apart, but it is simply skipping my shallow grooves??
Changed few molds and realized that shortened minies sized .577 (looks like my barrel is .578 as it loads with no issues even after 20 shots) shots better with just 53-55gr. But shorened minies look terrible. I'm not a reenactor, but still, it would be nice at least to look authentic.
So I have a question here then. Would it help to try PH minies (the ones with very shallow cavity) sized .577 with FFFg powder? These projectiles are heavy and quick push from the faster burned propellant should squeeze the soft lead enough to fill in the grooves. And shallow cavity will not allow it to deform badly?
Also I didn't get the idea with the original Enfield cartridges. They are using the plugs, right? So smaller but faster charge of FFFg should also push the plug into the bullet to expand and grip the rifling tight, but not be strong enough to make it skip the rifling later?
It couldn’t hurt to try different bullets, also try adjusting the powder charge and grain size. Sometimes you can discover a combination that works.
Same here. I tried various versions of Brett's P53 Enfield cartridges and also cast Minies of various diameters. I tried Williams Type II and Type III cleaner bullets. And multiple charge sizes. And multiple lubes.
I finally just gave up. My Pedersoli P53 3-band just insisted on poor accuracy at any distance or just plain keyholes. In some cases, with the paper patched Enfield cartridges, I could not even get a keyhole on the target. The Pedersoli was just overhand tossing them down the range or something....
I sold it off. I could not deal with it any longer. It never occurred to me to try a patched round ball, but even if it had I would have STILL sold it because what is the point of owning an expensive replica that cannot shoot the correct historical load?
GRRRR.
Thanks for a lot of interesting information, again it was great video!
very informative
I have had the same problem with my spaghetti cartridge guns, need to use oversized bullets, gave up on paper patching.
It would be interesting to run a test at a NSSA match to see if the units are using repros or originals. I used a P53 Enfield at NSSA events and it shot very well. I switched to a 63 Springfield repro and it shot well too. The only issue was that due to the P53 having a straight stock, the aiming point was different from the Springfield.
It's a mix with say 50/50. Those generally with reproductions either have bobby Hoyt in PA reline the barrel or Dan Whitacre in Winchester VA completely make a new one with progressive depth rifling copying the same profile of the barrel of said firearm type.
Or in the case of an original it may be relined, or a new barrel made. As an example I'm having Whitacre make me a barrel for an 1841 Mississippi ( Original ) that I dropped off at the 150th nationals.
Wow. This is indeed an interesting video.
I was tossing up whether to buy a reproduction, or get an original rifle in good, usable condition.
I wound up buying an original, Hay Patent Enfield in .557 (a very rare "improved" model of the 1853 Enfield). Haven't shot it yet (it needs a replacement spring in the lock), but the barrel and stock are in great condition.
I'm now thanking my lucky stars that I went for an original.
Thanks for the information.
PS: I still want to get a Pedersoli, flintlock, Frontier type rifle shooting patched ball ammunition. If I understood this video adequately, then reproduction ball ammo muzzle loaders should still shoot at something approaching historic standards.
Yes I think you can expect good performance from standard Italian repro rifling, if you’re shooting a patched round ball.
Though I would suggest trying a Kibler kit as they have SMR, Woods runner, Colonial American both smooth and rifled, and recently came out with a fowler. Made in Ohio, combine it with a L&R lock.
My Pedersoli 1861 Springfield shoots very accurately IF you drop your point of aim 5 to 6 inches low with a 50 gr powder charge and a .570 PRB... I have not been able to get it to shoot .575 Minie balls with any accuracy at all however, still hoping to find that MAGIC combo maybe a .578 Parker Hale Minie ball and a 50 gr powder charge + dropping my POA 5 to 6 inches , keeping my fingers crossed, anyway it's accurate with PRB's so I'll take that for now!
This is fascinating!
i had an idea, remove the breach plug and machine down the rifling to create a larger free bore. the bullet would bullet would expand to a larger size than the bore and then be swaged down by a shallow lead and the rifling.
The Austrians did this in their 1854 Lorenz.
that is where i got the idea.@@papercartridges6705
Thanks Kindly Brett! I always learn something with every video! Many Blessings! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania
I guess I got doubly lucky. I've got a Perderoli 1861 Springfield and P53 and both shoot a .575 Minie' style bullet reasonably well using 60 grns of 2fg. I wouldn't call them tick drivers, but I can consistently hit an 8" steel plate at 100 yards in a resting position.
That’s really good with Italian barrels. I had a Euroarms Enfield that shot about that good. Sometimes they inexplicably shoot Minies well.
I found a couple of web sites that will install a historically correct progressive rifled barrel onto my replica '54 Springfield, it will cost about $800 to include a dovetailed front sight, the installation of my original ladder sights on the rear, and lose my bayonet lug. I only paid $250 for it and the guy threw in the bayonet. They install their own breechplug, machining it to match my stock so I get the original barrel back, in case I want to swap barrels to use the bayonet. :)
hey man whats the company? I have a Richmond rifle id like worked over
I would say the leaded skirt in a progressive rifled barrel maybe is Progressively Sweaged as the Lead of the Minie ball Skirt? is like a Progressive Forcing Cone or a Hammer and Anvil with charge as Hammer, Barrel as Avil.
I never knew Progressive Rifling was Such a Big Part of Martial Arms of this period?
THANKS! MAKES TOTALLY Logical Sense!
I thought "I do" Just as Well with my period Muskets??
but my modern .50's are Drill Presses! but for my errors in loading, or other variables.
I do need to try my new batch of 99.9 pure mill cirt lead I found local less than $1lb. lube minie's. the BP gods smiled.
I read somewhere that patched round balls get flung out all over the place with these guns. I have a Armi Sport rifled m1842 that I need to get figured out for deer season.
I've managed to get good accuracy by using 1.5F powder. The slower burn time must give the ball more time to expand.
I’ve had the same experience with 1.5Fg, and use a lot of it. I switch between 1 and 1.5 Swiss and haven’t quite made my mind up which I like more.
@@papercartridges6705
I just tried 1F and the accuracy did seem slightly improved over 1.5F.
So useful. Thank you for explaining this so well. Excellent--Thank You
I would guess that the Italian makers main customers would be the reenactor, so accuracy wouldn't be such a concern like it is for the skirmisher