Elves?! ELVES!!! Damn it Bioware give me more Dwarves and Titans and Qunari! Old Gods, Forgotten and Forbidden Ones would be good too...Unless they're Elves as well.
I think the very fact that Mythal apparently fled to the Chastened/Avvar/Fereldon tribe makes them interesting. Especially given the Andraste connection, and Maeferath. I really think there's a story under there connecting the 'barbarian' gods to the elven ones... ... but I understand being sick of the damn elves, Elves, ELVES! 😂
Out of all the things in Thedas that seem like an after thought the Avvar are the biggest. Them and the Chasind. Its like they're mentioned so much but we get so little from them.
I like the Korth theory! That's awesome. Re: confusion about the nature of Hakkon and all those, the Avvar discuss how their spirits need to be destroyed in order to be reborn, to accommodate more natural progressions and developments of their nature. Much like I dont think that the spirit that took the Divine's form could just have been replaced by another spirit (a replica of a replica, instead of a reflection of the real thing, which likely took place over the course of a long time), I think that Hakkon's healthy progression and renewal was something only Hakkon could do. Solas even mentions how, when his friend, a spirit of Wisdom, is destroyed, "another version of it might take its place someday", but he seemed to feel it would take a very long time, and would need to be exposed to many IRL influences to create it, so he was not hopeful (namely, because he does not believe a lot of wisdom and compassion exists in the thedas he created). I think that in order for a new spirit to embody war, or winter, the avvar would need to experience lots of war and devastating winters, which maybe isnt ideal for them? I think a lot of relevant context has been revealed in Inquisition, we just need to piece it together. Which is why I loved that game so much. It inspired me to go back and play everything again, and really obsess over the codexes I likely glazed over the first time I played
*barges in as a Anthropology Nerd on the question regarding the big gods and spirits and how are the spirits Demi gods or what* OK SO. This is a long one but you asked, and the explanation is rooted in actual religious history. This is a real thing that happens in polytheistic traditions world wide. The issue is in our christianized society we have this background belief that a god is something that is specifically Divine and has always BEEN divine. That there is this ‘thing’ that sets it apart specially. When uh... most cultures ‘god’ is a fast and loose term that is more concerned with practicality than some divine definition. You ask it to do stuff and give it offerings to keep the weather good for good crops, and it does it? Cool it’s a god. (Remember - most polytheistic traditions do not believe a god is ‘perfect’ or always good or all powerful. This is a very Christian thing. Heck even Judaism believes you should argue and debate with God.) Really the only difference in Norse mythology regarding the gods (aesir) and the not-gods (Jotunn) is... whether or not they are beneficial to humans. That’s it. Also, speaking of Norse and Greek mythology, there version we get today is heavily watered down and flat out ignores the local beliefs and “lesser” gods of each city and home. And with the Norse specifically the ancestor worship. (I believe the Greeks had a form of this too but I have not studied this as much.) So put this complex belief system in a world with a bunch of spirits. Ancestor spirits don’t really seem to be a thing in this world (although I was psyched to see the Avvar have a concept of reincarnation because people usually don’t realize Norse cultures had a reincarnation believe as well, so to see a nordic based fantasy culture have this made me fist pump the air), so what do you have instead? Hold spirits. Hold spirits/gods to the Avvar seem to fill the space that ancestor spirits and local spirits/gods (seriously the term was and is used nigh interchangeably with traditional religions) would to Norse cultures, historically. You still had the big gods that were far more widespread, but then you had the ones that were local to your tribe or even to your family line or house. Honestly? These were likely prayed to more on a day to day basis as they were considered more likely to hear you since they KNEW you. (Think of it as the catholic ‘we pray to saints before the big guy’ but with no guilt and sin talk. Also, coincidentally, this is why Saint worship was encouraged in countries where they were trying to convert a polytheistic populace- because it made more sense to the people.) To the Avvar this makes sense because well. There is only one Hakkon. If Hakkon sides against you, you better have some of your own gods or hold spirits to call on for help. Otherwise the battle would be a foregone conclusion. Now, as for why another war or battle spirit wouldn’t take his place. I think this is a number of factors. For us, 800 years is a long time, but for ‘time it takes to develop and spread a god’ it’s a pittance. Because in order to have a god take the place of Hakkon you would have to have a spirit equally (or nearly) as powerful come on the scene, then a lot of battles between the Avvar to spread the belief in the strength of this spirit and its worship, and all while Hakkon would need to be forgotten so his worshipers fall off. There probably were some hold spirits who helped with battle that were prayed to, but they didn’t reach the size and prominence that Hakkon did. I mean- and even if there was one, this wouldn’t negate the worship of Hakkon. Seriously. Look at the Norse pantheon proper- for war you have Odin, Thor, Freya, and Tyr and that’s just off the top of my head. Each are different aspects- but still viable gods to call on. But Hakkon is a unique spirit who the Avvar know well- not only a god of war, but of winter and steel. (Also- might have originally been a spirit of Valour since it says he rewarded warriors who showed valour and wisdom and strategy in battle). Even if another battle spirit was raised up, it would not replace Hakkon or the long history the Avvar benefitted from him with. There would probably always be people leaving offerings or praying to him in hopes he would one day come back, or just to honor his memory. So TL’DR- they are all gods because they all have a practical role in the community of ‘we offer stuff to them and they help us’, you don’t need only one spirit per concept- in fact it’s better to have many, and BioWare really did their research on poly religions for the Avvar. Also really enjoy your videos and hope my long nerd post helped!
I think Korth is a Titan too! Yaaay I'm not alone. Mythal was Tryddas leaf eared lover - and absolutely is the lady of the sky. I really like your theory about bellanas in the fade.
my headcanon is that their gods are 'just' spirits which have taken over the concepts of their belief, similar how they do with emotions and virtues. Their faith makes them those gods and hence 'real'.
sadly your wish of finding more about the chasind will have to go unfulfilled cause the series is leaving southern thedas and that really saddens me am i the only one who wanted to see highever like this place is where supposedly flemeth and calenhad came from .the chantry's prison Aeonar (which seems messed up cause they force you to be possessed and torture you there) the Korcari wilds yes we did see them in origins but we didn't explore much especially that there seemed to be elven ruins there and those Firesprites things like you cant leave them unexplored
Highever is the Human Noble Origin...Granted it's only the Castle but we've technically seen it. Aeonar was abandoned/destroyed in the Mage-Templar War no one's getting tortured or imprisoned there anymore...So we'd just be exploring a ruin. The Korcari Wilds just have animals, trees and primitives...There's not much storytelling to be found there after Flemeth. Elvhen Ruins are Everywhere in Thedas don't worry about seeing more of them...Plus Tevinter's and Antiva's Elvhen ruins will be the most important and interesting ones to explore anyways given that's where the Capital of their Empire was built. Now the South is cool...But honestly the North has the potential to be far cooler. Qunari-ruled lands, Tevinters (A Mage-Ruled instead of feared like everywhere else society), The Natives of Seheron caught between the neverending wars of the Qun and Imperium, The Grey Warden's HQ and Kingdom, Kal-Sharok the mysterious Dwarven city-state that survived all the Blights on their own in isolation, Rivain an land divided by the Qun, Andrastians, Pirates and Old Traditions with unknown belief structures and tenants. An who knows what secrets lie there too? This is Humanity's and Elvhenkind's Homelands and Holy lands. The North of Thedas has too much importance to be unseen...We need to go there and I'm excited for it myself.
It's fairly easy to see Sera's point of view on being too elfy seems "it was elves all along" is becoming a predictable end point of discussion these days I love my Surana, Tabris, Mahariel, Andras and even Lavellans but damn if any elf I play in the next one doesn't end up gagging at thought of being "one of the people" or that they could get something out of the death of the world already planning on making an elf the grand child of my orliesan elf warden given he was old enough to have a grandchild that would be an adult by da4(his daughter's daughter so it's easier to fit with whatever last name and back story bioware writes) At any rate Tarras Andras's granddaughter will likely be going "who's we?" whenever some pro Fen'harel type speaks
Elves?! ELVES!!! Damn it Bioware give me more Dwarves and Titans and Qunari! Old Gods, Forgotten and Forbidden Ones would be good too...Unless they're Elves as well.
I think the very fact that Mythal apparently fled to the Chastened/Avvar/Fereldon tribe makes them interesting. Especially given the Andraste connection, and Maeferath. I really think there's a story under there connecting the 'barbarian' gods to the elven ones...
... but I understand being sick of the damn elves, Elves, ELVES! 😂
Out of all the things in Thedas that seem like an after thought the Avvar are the biggest. Them and the Chasind. Its like they're mentioned so much but we get so little from them.
I like the Korth theory! That's awesome.
Re: confusion about the nature of Hakkon and all those, the Avvar discuss how their spirits need to be destroyed in order to be reborn, to accommodate more natural progressions and developments of their nature. Much like I dont think that the spirit that took the Divine's form could just have been replaced by another spirit (a replica of a replica, instead of a reflection of the real thing, which likely took place over the course of a long time), I think that Hakkon's healthy progression and renewal was something only Hakkon could do. Solas even mentions how, when his friend, a spirit of Wisdom, is destroyed, "another version of it might take its place someday", but he seemed to feel it would take a very long time, and would need to be exposed to many IRL influences to create it, so he was not hopeful (namely, because he does not believe a lot of wisdom and compassion exists in the thedas he created). I think that in order for a new spirit to embody war, or winter, the avvar would need to experience lots of war and devastating winters, which maybe isnt ideal for them?
I think a lot of relevant context has been revealed in Inquisition, we just need to piece it together. Which is why I loved that game so much. It inspired me to go back and play everything again, and really obsess over the codexes I likely glazed over the first time I played
*barges in as a Anthropology Nerd on the question regarding the big gods and spirits and how are the spirits Demi gods or what*
OK SO. This is a long one but you asked, and the explanation is rooted in actual religious history.
This is a real thing that happens in polytheistic traditions world wide. The issue is in our christianized society we have this background belief that a god is something that is specifically Divine and has always BEEN divine. That there is this ‘thing’ that sets it apart specially.
When uh... most cultures ‘god’ is a fast and loose term that is more concerned with practicality than some divine definition. You ask it to do stuff and give it offerings to keep the weather good for good crops, and it does it? Cool it’s a god. (Remember - most polytheistic traditions do not believe a god is ‘perfect’ or always good or all powerful. This is a very Christian thing. Heck even Judaism believes you should argue and debate with God.)
Really the only difference in Norse mythology regarding the gods (aesir) and the not-gods (Jotunn) is... whether or not they are beneficial to humans. That’s it.
Also, speaking of Norse and Greek mythology, there version we get today is heavily watered down and flat out ignores the local beliefs and “lesser” gods of each city and home. And with the Norse specifically the ancestor worship. (I believe the Greeks had a form of this too but I have not studied this as much.)
So put this complex belief system in a world with a bunch of spirits.
Ancestor spirits don’t really seem to be a thing in this world (although I was psyched to see the Avvar have a concept of reincarnation because people usually don’t realize Norse cultures had a reincarnation believe as well, so to see a nordic based fantasy culture have this made me fist pump the air), so what do you have instead? Hold spirits.
Hold spirits/gods to the Avvar seem to fill the space that ancestor spirits and local spirits/gods (seriously the term was and is used nigh interchangeably with traditional religions) would to Norse cultures, historically.
You still had the big gods that were far more widespread, but then you had the ones that were local to your tribe or even to your family line or house. Honestly? These were likely prayed to more on a day to day basis as they were considered more likely to hear you since they KNEW you. (Think of it as the catholic ‘we pray to saints before the big guy’ but with no guilt and sin talk. Also, coincidentally, this is why Saint worship was encouraged in countries where they were trying to convert a polytheistic populace- because it made more sense to the people.)
To the Avvar this makes sense because well. There is only one Hakkon. If Hakkon sides against you, you better have some of your own gods or hold spirits to call on for help. Otherwise the battle would be a foregone conclusion.
Now, as for why another war or battle spirit wouldn’t take his place.
I think this is a number of factors. For us, 800 years is a long time, but for ‘time it takes to develop and spread a god’ it’s a pittance. Because in order to have a god take the place of Hakkon you would have to have a spirit equally (or nearly) as powerful come on the scene, then a lot of battles between the Avvar to spread the belief in the strength of this spirit and its worship, and all while Hakkon would need to be forgotten so his worshipers fall off.
There probably were some hold spirits who helped with battle that were prayed to, but they didn’t reach the size and prominence that Hakkon did.
I mean- and even if there was one, this wouldn’t negate the worship of Hakkon. Seriously. Look at the Norse pantheon proper- for war you have Odin, Thor, Freya, and Tyr and that’s just off the top of my head. Each are different aspects- but still viable gods to call on.
But Hakkon is a unique spirit who the Avvar know well- not only a god of war, but of winter and steel. (Also- might have originally been a spirit of Valour since it says he rewarded warriors who showed valour and wisdom and strategy in battle). Even if another battle spirit was raised up, it would not replace Hakkon or the long history the Avvar benefitted from him with. There would probably always be people leaving offerings or praying to him in hopes he would one day come back, or just to honor his memory.
So TL’DR- they are all gods because they all have a practical role in the community of ‘we offer stuff to them and they help us’, you don’t need only one spirit per concept- in fact it’s better to have many, and BioWare really did their research on poly religions for the Avvar.
Also really enjoy your videos and hope my long nerd post helped!
I think Korth is a Titan too! Yaaay I'm not alone. Mythal was Tryddas leaf eared lover - and absolutely is the lady of the sky. I really like your theory about bellanas in the fade.
my headcanon is that their gods are 'just' spirits which have taken over the concepts of their belief, similar how they do with emotions and virtues. Their faith makes them those gods and hence 'real'.
The Agadi have an abundance of natural gas and vodka in those snowy mountains, mark my words
LOL, good one.
Whenever something weird happens in Thedas ... I'm not saying it was elves, but ... "Alie -- uh, Elves."
sadly your wish of finding more about the chasind will have to go unfulfilled cause the series is leaving southern thedas and that really saddens me am i the only one who wanted to see highever like this place is where supposedly flemeth and calenhad came from .the chantry's prison Aeonar (which seems messed up cause they force you to be possessed and torture you there) the Korcari wilds yes we did see them in origins but we didn't explore much especially that there seemed to be elven ruins there and those Firesprites things like you cant leave them unexplored
Highever is the Human Noble Origin...Granted it's only the Castle but we've technically seen it. Aeonar was abandoned/destroyed in the Mage-Templar War no one's getting tortured or imprisoned there anymore...So we'd just be exploring a ruin. The Korcari Wilds just have animals, trees and primitives...There's not much storytelling to be found there after Flemeth. Elvhen Ruins are Everywhere in Thedas don't worry about seeing more of them...Plus Tevinter's and Antiva's Elvhen ruins will be the most important and interesting ones to explore anyways given that's where the Capital of their Empire was built.
Now the South is cool...But honestly the North has the potential to be far cooler. Qunari-ruled lands, Tevinters (A Mage-Ruled instead of feared like everywhere else society), The Natives of Seheron caught between the neverending wars of the Qun and Imperium, The Grey Warden's HQ and Kingdom, Kal-Sharok the mysterious Dwarven city-state that survived all the Blights on their own in isolation, Rivain an land divided by the Qun, Andrastians, Pirates and Old Traditions with unknown belief structures and tenants. An who knows what secrets lie there too? This is Humanity's and Elvhenkind's Homelands and Holy lands. The North of Thedas has too much importance to be unseen...We need to go there and I'm excited for it myself.
I love Elves 😎
Damned Knife-Ear Lover.
What are they doing, I am dieing of waiting!
It's fairly easy to see Sera's point of view on being too elfy seems "it was elves all along" is becoming a predictable end point of discussion these days
I love my Surana, Tabris, Mahariel, Andras and even Lavellans but damn if any elf I play in the next one doesn't end up gagging at thought of being "one of the people" or that they could get something out of the death of the world
already planning on making an elf the grand child of my orliesan elf warden given he was old enough to have a grandchild that would be an adult by da4(his daughter's daughter so it's easier to fit with whatever last name and back story bioware writes)
At any rate Tarras Andras's granddaughter will likely be going "who's we?" whenever some pro Fen'harel type speaks
i think the old gods of tevinter, the chasind gods and avvar gods are the evanuris....bold claim? i think so
its elves all the way down