Maybe in 10 years when the people at large insist on calling it the goblin in the everyday vernacular - which I don’t think is out of the realm of possibility.
My objection to the Suffergette Line is that the Women's Social and Political Union had very few supporters in east London. The WSPU campaigned for a wealth qualification for women to vote, which would mean that few of the working class women of east London would qualify. Instead they were sufferagists, who campaigned for votes for all women, not just the middle class.
It is often forgotten that their campaign was supported by much of the Conservative Party (as now, not all Tory MPs agreed on anything) as a counter to the pressure for universal male suffrage backed by the Labour and Liberal parties. Women were perceived as more likely to vote Conservative, as was true through the 20th century, and restricting it to more wealthy women reinforced that.
The Suffragettes planted and exploded several bombs causing injury on the rail network (including bombs that didn't explode at Piccadilly circus and Westbourne park tube stations) and were involved with railway arson attacks plus multiple deliberate acts of vandalism to the railway signal network with the intention of causing danger to passengers. The Suffragettes invented the letter bomb, and one exploded in a carriage mail compartment, injuring the train guard near Preston. While their campaign for change was laudable their methods were perhaps not a cause for commemoration on the railways.
I found it interesting that the marketing release chose to include Fawcett, who of course explicitly and vigorously opposed the Suffragettes, in large part because of the WSPUs taste for fascism - which the East End rather memorably opposed in 1936
Aside from the Goblin, if the names had to be changed then I'm most disappointed the East London Line wasn't called the Brunel line for the Thames Tunnel.
Brunel was a man, and clearly, whoever was the activist in charge of coming up with these names, wasn't interested in celebrating the legacy of one of those.
@@Recessio The Brunels were responsible for so many things in the engineering sphere. What did the ingrates of the Windrush do that we couldn't do without them?
I think you've nailed it: the names are so arbitrary and are only relevant to what is fashionable at the time of them being chosen, instead of literally anything else.
With such a major change to the Underground map perhaps there's been a missed opportunity to name one of the lines after Harry Beck! Born in Leyton then I would guess the Goblin would have been the closest to change in his honour. The Beck line does roll of the tongue easily, making it clear and concise and easy to understand.
It should be remembered that the Suffragette movement was totally opposed to giving the vote to working class women, who they considered to be too stupid to be trusted with a vote.
I can absolutely guarantee you that the people who came up with the "Suffragette line" name did not know that, and that they only did some cursory research before choosing which line got the name.
I always imagined that the Overground could be extended from Clapham Junction via East Putney to Wimbledon. I internally refer to it as the Womble line for that reason. However this would make it less of a circle (plus I think the current route SWR sometimes uses only works northbound atm).
You absolutely nailed it, and also completely convinced me of the Liberty name's virtue. I would have thought the East London Line and Goblin would be kept for historical and hysterical value respectively and it's such a shame to lose them.
I'm not from the area so don't hate me for saying this, but when I heard the names of these lines I wouldn't have even been able to tell you where this line is. Surely the Havering Line would have been better as those that use the line regularly will use it and know where it goes anyway, those that don't, but might occasionally, will immediately know what line to take, which signs to follow without having to check. That's my only objection.
The problem with the name Liberty Line, apart from the fact that it's a pretentious name for such a short line, is that there were several liberties in London.
@@DadgeCity If I didn't already know the Overground doesn't go there I would have thought the line went to the famous department store Liberty's!!! I know it's spelt differently but I just find the name odd.
@@ohpurpled You'd think so. This proves to me that it isn't researched and instead is just an attempt at pandering. Which is disappointing really, it would have been more respectful to the history and communities if it wasn't half-arsed. If anything, if the theme is to remain they should rename it to the suffrage line, Pankhurst line or Huggett Line. (Also not forgetting the suffragettes were upper class eugenics supporting train station bombers) the suffragists were the ones whos movement achieved the vote.
Thank you for explaining the Liberty Line. I for one hadn't understood it historic significance of the name when it was announced. However I think the Goblin will always be the Goblin & the Lioness will get renamed as soon as another England team actually wins something, so it may stick around for some time.
The Lioness Line will certainly not sit well when the Womens team catch up to the 'achievements' of the Mens team! As you say, it does feel like they've gone with what's popular at the time.
Hopefully this will make the Underground map readable again! Last time I stayed in London I kept spending at least a kilometre walking to my hostel in Bethnal Green because I didn't realise that the Overground connection was a normal train!
Thanks Jago - sensible and measured comments - they should have put you in charge of this! As you say though, in due course everyone will forget the reason for the names, and "the Suffering Line" will become part of London's culture.
@@UranusMcVitieFish-yd7oq renaming and recolouring the lines was entirely necessary. Plenty of room for debate about the names settled on as a result, but to say it shouldn't have been done at all is just silly.
@@laurencefraser hen they decided to use different colours, then maybe they should have named each line after its colour, like you would see on the metro systems abroad. Yes, it's unimaginative, but it's also politically neutral and won't cause arguments.
@@crazyboutferretsI did think one called the Bowie Line might have been an idea, although he was from Brixton originally I think and as far as I'm aware no Overground line goes there, the nearest being what is now the Windrush line, but would calling that line the Bowie Line be right? I don't know.
@mattpotter8725 It actually runs right through the middle of Brixton without stopping. They have looked at adding Overground platforms at Brixton, but it seems that that's too costly. A possible alternative would be to reopen East Brixton station (half-way between Brixton and Loughborough Junction), which closed in 1976 after being damaged by fire. Overground trains pass through the site.
No it's not "just you". I used to think of 1977 every time I got on a Jubilee train. I guess - a name is just a name, so I can't find it in myself to get that exercised about them, but I do agree that lines like the Goblin, which already had some sort of established, if unofficial, identity do appear to have been subtly robbed of a part of their heritage. Anyway a nice summary Jago.
Yes, I do too. But mainly because I have become so much more aware of the history of the Underground through the wonderful work of Jago Hazzard and Geoff Marshall.
The Mildmay would have been better named the Olympic line, since it connects the Olympic park at stratford and Kensington Olympia. Plus this name would celebrate one of the best moments in London's recent history.
I'm just annoyed they didn't make it goblin, they could have made the colour green or grey a popular colour for goblins in fiction so that it would also have an identity in itself (perhaps even a mascot) even if the stations change over time. Yes actually in thought ea h line should have had a colour and mascot that matched the name, and they should have made a big song a dance about it, the beat way to get people to like a name (even a bad one) is to throw a party anyway l.
And the Mildmay terminating at Stratford is a very similar colour to the DLR ... would have been better to use that blue for any of the Lioness/Harlequin, Suffragette/Goblin, Weaver/Lea Valley or Liberty/🤷🏻♂ lines which don't interface with DLR.
Well, broadly what I thought, certainly about the Lioness line. So was it worth the wait? Absolutely. The liberty line explanation was interesting to hear and has made me happier about that one. All in all it's a mixed bag, and I think that's a shame. Some unifying principle would have been nice. I'd be happier if the Lioness was the Stadium line or just the Wembley line, which would surely help concert and sport goers. Another option would have been to reference the South asian community in some way.
@@englishciderlover7347You can say the word white. It’s fine. Look, I just did it! White. White. There’s no conspiracy to silence you online for saying the word white. You’re as dim as the people who came up with some of these line names.
As an old libertian (I went to the royal liberty school) I like the name of the liberty line. My grandmother used to call it the push me pull you, as it has a cab at both ends.
@mikeuk4130 Oh s**t, another old fart who must be as old as me ! I got caned by Jakey. Horrible to think something other than Hell being named after that place of eternal torment !
As a fellow Ol' Boy, I see the RLS never attained its wish to remain ex-grammer. All multiple unit trains have a cab at both ends, even today. The name push-pull predates this. It came from the fact that when the line was steam hauled, the loco used to run round at a passing loop to the north of Emerson Park, so it pushed and pulled. Oh s**t, does that make me as old as your grandmother !
My biggest annoyance is they've not fixed the problem. The Weaver line isn't a line at all, its multiple, hence they were previously called the Lee Valley Line*s* So there's still ambiguity when faults are being reported etc.
The weaver line is basically one line as most of the trains seem to be chingford- lsx- Enfield-lsx-Chingford so a delay on one impacts the overall line
I think they've mostly fixed the problem. It's good enough if you're just naming and not numbering them. They all start at Liverpool Street and go to Enfield Town, Cheshunt or Chingford. It's technically three lines but they partially use the same tracks, so it's good enough when it comes to London. Just look at the tube: The Piccadilly Line goes to either Uxbridge or Heathrow (and either to terminal 4 or 5 there), the Central Line has Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip on one side and Epping and the Hainault Loop on the other side, including the shuttle. The Metropolitan Line has four termini in the west and fast trains, so good luck, and the District Line, well...have fun. If we named all of these, you couldn't keep track of all of them. Oh, and the Northern Line...
They only share 4 stations though, not really comparable to Piccadilly which is mostly the same and only varies the end. Northern line has same problem, should be two different.
@@Whoop0The Northern line can't just be easily split into two if you retain current service. If you just call the routes via Charing Cross and Bank different things you'll end up with both new lines running along both northern branches. If you want to clean it up youd need four, and then you still have the odd Charing Cross train to Morden and whatever goes to Mill Hill East.
Graphic designers messed up - see Mildmay diagram at 3:28. Spur facing wrong way, implying a direct service between Richmond and Clapham Junction. On a more pedantic note: Station for Wembley Stadium is Wembley Park on Met and Jubilee lines, not Wembley Central on Lioness line. Big Caribbean community in Brixton, but no Windrush station there. MIldmay line services pass remnants of Mildmay Park station. This closed in 1934, so possible negative association. And people will probably still say Goblin. In Bristol, they changed the name of The Galleries shopping mall (soon to be demolished) to The Mall. Bristolians continued to call it The Galleries and the original name was reinstated. Bristol City Council invented names for various parts of the city (e.g. West End, Old City, Temple Quarter) and incorporated them into signage, official announcements etc. No one uses them. Good luck TfL.
Naming a line after a sporting achievement is a hostage to fortune. In some future championship the "Lionesses" may perform somewhat poorly and everyone will not want reminders. And I thought the suffragettes colour was purple, not green. Well, as someone who used to travel frequently on the "Weaver" line between Liverpool St and Enfield Town in those dreadful Gresley "quint-arts" carriages behind the delightful N7 0-6-2T locos I'm probably too old to reply care any more!
By the time England women are bad at football, people will have largely disassociated the origins of the name anyway, much like with the Jubilee and Bakerloo, for example.
Good discussion. Some of the London tube lines have seemingly illogical names but we live with them. I like the idea of naming lines. In other cities such as Paris and New York the lines are identified by either a colour or a number which is a lot less memorable than a name and thereby less easy to navigate.
Technically, New York distinguishes between services, the 1, 2, 3, A, C, E, etc. and lines which carry multiple services, which are simply named after what they run along like the 2nd Avenue Line etc.
@@txquartz OK but I still think that individual names such as the Bronx, Yankee Globetrotter or maybe Hudson Lines in New York or the Croissant, Baguette, Coup de Gras or Cris de Coeur Line in Paris would be more memorable.
and in the process confuse anyone to whom you must give directions, I suspect. At least those sufficiently non-local that they have need to consult a map in order to follow them.
I was in Rome, everyone directed me to Fumico Airport. Went to the Railway to catch the train to Fumico. No signage to Fumico anywhere. After an anxious half hour or so dragging our cases around the station I finally found someone who spoke English. Fumico was Leonardo De Vinci Airport. Those signs were obvious. Caught the train, caught the plane. Individualism is wonderful, but language is used for communication of information.
I’m not from the UK, let alone London, so I don’t truly have any skin in this discussion. However, as an outsider looking in, these specific names seem to have been chosen for, shall we say, political expediency. IMHO, these names appear to be pandering to improve opinion polls amongst Women (Suffragettes, Lioness), LGBTQ+ (Mildmay) & People of Colour (Windrush).
Opinion from Australian living in London for the last over 4 years: As much as people might hate the names now, fact is that it's better now that they have actual names and distinct colours. People are gonna get used to it over time but it'll be way easier to understand for the less-familiar.
Up here in Newcastle our Metro light rail is referenced by colour. Not the trains, they're mostly yellow, but the colour on the maps. So, to keep in line (haha!) with the metropolis, we should rename the lines. The one to the Airport could be Whippet, the coastal loop Flat Cap, and the Sunderland one has to be Oblivion. Oh, and let's not forget the line to South Shields, that one would be either Stottie or Mushy Peas.
can't say i'm a fan of the new names; i would rather they used something distinct and memorable that gives an indication of location or use might just be me being a train nerd, but something like 'north london line' seems much more sensible - tells you where it is, what it does, and can't be easily confused with something else you might be trying to talk about
North London Line is my least favourite suggestion - it’s a massively overloaded term at this point with the Northern Line and the Great Northern railway, both of which it would connect with!
"North London line" would inevitably somehow end up full of confused tourists trying to to catch the Northern Line, unfortunately. By going for distinctive names, they have at least reduced that sort of confusion to a minimum
I agree that renaming the individual lines is a good idea though, like a lot of people, not a fan of some of the names finally chosen. I was really hoping they'd make Goblin official as every time I hear that name it makes me giggle. I'd heard someone recently make a great suggestion of Olympic for the North London Line as it links three areas of London associated with past games: Stratford (2012), White City/Shepherd's Bush (1908) and Richmond Park (1948).
Olympic was a great idea. As for the lines that had acquired a nickname, I think the committee should have respected vox populi but I am just a foreigner.
The Romford to Upminster line never used to terminate at Upminster, it used to cross the District lines to the London side of Upminster station, then on to the LT&S lines to branch off via Ockendon to terminate at Grays, although some trains would continue to Tilbury.
Even my mum, who used that line to get to school in Grays when it was still a steam train, can't remember a direct Romford - Grays service, and my mum's really old! We always referred to it as the Emerson Park Line.
It has run as a shuttle between Romford and Upminster only since 1956! The through service to Grays ceased when London Underground built a new depot and platforms for the District Line at Upminster, which severed the connection and so now there is no physical access from the branch to the other LTS lines.
Got to have a drive of a Class 302 from Upminster to Grays as an 11 year old back in 1980. My dad was the signalman at Upminster and I used to spend the weekends in the box with him. Got the cab invite one day when handing over the branch token one Saturday.
What you said has a lot of sense, so I agree with it. As a foreigner, the Overground has always been very confusing to me because I had no idea that they were different lines. It seemed all one route and it was indeed confusing! Better line it will be now.
Few people have any objections to the lines having different identities. It is the wiping out of heritage names and the imposition of these new names (which break with naming convention as well) that people object to.
What I don’t like about the names is it breaks the pattern of what the underground lines were named after, the majority of them being about the areas they serve or something to do with royalty. I think if they just chose to name the lines how everyone had been calling them for years, there would be much less complaining.
@@MarioFanGamer659 apart from that, the only ones that give an idea of their geography are the Hammersmith and City, and Waterloo and City. Some (eg Piccadilly) are named after one place on the route, but that's not very helpful if you are heading anywhere else. Northern and Central are geographical, but the former goes further south than, and not as far north as, other lines; and most lines serve Central London. Metropolitan goes further from the metropolis than most others; District is meaningless (which district?). People get used to the names and that's all that matters.
@@andrewlong6438 No but the circle line is named that because it is circular, the Bakerloo is a combination of Baker street and Waterloo and the northern line serves north London. I specified both royalty and location served.
Given that derivitives of 'Windy' being used as shorthand/slang for things regarding the West Indies is both a very common thing in English and seemingly the origin of the name in the first place, that's hardly a problem and is likely to stick. 'The Fart' hopefully not so much.
@@Jasper_4444 There actually is a public transport company in switzerland called FART (Ferrovie autolinee regionali ticinesi, Regional Bus and Rail Company of Ticino). So around Locarno you can already ride FART trains and busses
Good point at the end. As Jay Foreman pointed out on 5live on Friday, the names will eventually just stick as others have from the past and people will use them without giving the association much thought.
If you want to do a video on the connection between spitalfields and weaving I would certainly love to watch it. All I know Spitalfields past is the old flower and fruit markets as my Dad was a Greengrocer and my Grandad was a nurseryman.
The only reason I can think for them not using orange as a colour for any of the existing lines is that its been reversed for the West London Orbital, since they've used that colour in maps showing the route. Though on the subject of colouring, since the DLR, Trams and Elizabeth line also use the two lines for their colours, it might become increasingly confusing to distinguish between the Overground routes and the non-Overground routes to people who don't know the transport system well. Or Overground will fade into obscurity until it becomes meaningless anyway
I felt the orange should be retained for all the Overground lines either as the outer layer or as a central core, with the other proposed colours inside or outside. That would keep its distinctive identity.
Hi Jago, I agree entirely about the Lioness Line not being a very sensible name. The reason for it's naming will be forgotten in all too short a time, for its own good. Also The Suffragette Line, (which is my local line). I made my points clear in social media postings that it would have been better to have named it the Pankhurst Line. Afterall, the Pankhust sisters were incarcerated in Holloway Prison and the route passes quite close to that part of the world at Upper Holloway. Not only the Pankhurst Line is less than a mouthful to say, it also has a much better 'ring' of a name to it. Of course as you said it will be the butt of jokes wherever it's not working through failures or engineering works, (which frequently happen) whenever I seem to want to use it. A better alternative name would have been "The Bus Replacement Line'! The Goblin, is one of the original and favourite names with many and myself for the route. So long live the Goblin!!
If they wanted a line with a football connection, they could have had the Goal Line. To honour all London's politicians, there is the Party Line. As a reminder of the importance of punctuality on the Railway - the Dead Line. We have alreadt head the suggestion of the Leaves on the Line.
It's not. You local ruffians may call it the Goblin, but those of us outside of Laaaaaaaaaaaandan have no idea what the thing is called other than the trains are ALWAYS BLOODY LATE.
My only beef with this is, as I live locally, Windrush Square is in Brixton and the Wibdrush lines goes through Brixton NON STOP, there is no station on the line there! People might think a way to get to Windrush square would be the Windrush line but the nearest stations are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street, both about a mile away.
The explanation I've heard is that it would be a challenging engineering project because the station would be on a viaduct. But there used to be a Brixton station on an adjacent viaduct. East Brixton was on a viaduct. On the East-West line, the new Bletchley High Level station will be on a viaduct. I'm wondering what the real obstacle is.
@@jackmartinleith I'mpretty sure they said that the new bridge over the SR Brixtio station was built so that platforms could be built, but then they only had 2 car trains on the line.
The monikers of the Underground lines evolved over time. With the Overground, both the North London and Goblin evolved by themselves, yet are now officially gone. Hopefully, just as the Waterloo & City's more widely used epiphet has survived, so will Goblin ... and CROSSRAIL (dammit!!).
That would have been named for the connection between William Morris (who had a studio in Merton) and the Liberty design/textile firm. So it would have been equally or more relevant to use the name for the line which serves Walthamstow, Morris's birthplace.
They clearly tried so hard to get their politics immortalised in the lines names that they never stopped to think those names are going to be the butt end of jokes and derogatory nicknames. Now it doesn't matter what they had named the line, people will come up with their own nicknames and shorthands regardless of what City Hall would have named the lines. But by naming the lines after things they personally think is important it will be inevitable that those insulting nicknames are going to be taken very personal.
When it was Silverlink, and those awful three carriage sets every 15 minutes (or next to never on weekends) the north London line was in my circles "ghettolink"
I doubt they'll care what you personally call them, to be honest. But the reality is that once it's on all the signage, they're largely be referred to by the official name or something pretty close to it (because otherwise no one else will know what you're talking about)
@@bighamster2 Except they quite probably won't. Almost every attempt to force a branding name onto individual National Rail lines (which is what the Overground lines are) anywhere in the country has failed. Local people have their own names for their local lines (or no special name at all) and that's what they use. Overground is successful as a brand because it builds on Underground, but individual line names are a different matter. Birmingham's Cross-city line is known as that across the area, although attempts to give names to the other lines in the west midlands have failed, but over in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire it's debatable how many passengers know what the Robin Hood line is. In Lincolnshire, nobody could tell you what route the Redwing line is; it's better known to staff as "the Joint line" and to passengers as "the Sleaford line", and the (only ever part-reopened) Ivanhoe line in Leicestershire is known as the Ivanhole by the staff but experience tells me that the passengers have absolutely no idea what the Ivanhoe line is supposed to be; use the name and immediately they lose all understanding of what you're talking about. As with everything involving the Great British Public it's never wise to make categoric statements, of course. Maybe one or more of the Overground line names will be a big hit!
3:28 That map is back to front. There are no direct trains from Richmond to Clapham Junction - at least, not on the Mildmay Line, and TfL choose to ignore the existence of the other one. (The SW corner of the map only has any lines on it because the key for the map is put there)
You are interesting I live nowhere near London anymore and don’t generally tend to watch stuff like this but I’ve watched a few of these now I think it’s just nice to hear someone talk about something they got interest in without being argumentative I particularly enjoyed your “culture wars are boring”comment Look forward to seeing more
7:27 For the most part I agree. However, I think the Romford-Upminster Line's colours are too similar to that of the Elizabeth Line, which obviously also stops at Romford. Those who are unfamiliar with the network could easily get confused and think that the Romford-Upminster line is a branch of the Elizabeth Line. Whilst there are plenty of similar colour schemes for lines on the network, I can't think of any other lines like this off the top of my head, that both stop at the same station. Anyway, great video as always
As a resident of Havering, I agree that “The Liberty Line” makes sense - what is now the borough of Havering was once part of the Royal Liberty of Havering. I cannot see the other names catching on, particularly as none of them have a demonstrable relationship with most of the areas they pass through.
I think tey'll catch on because there's nothing else you can really call them to someone you don't know. "Overground" was a made up name but it quickly became accepted, and i think thos is just the next step in that
The names are dreadful. There are 3 requirements for a name, it should be succinct and easy to say, memorable, and relevant either to the route or to the history of the line. Liberty and Weaver are both ok and both meet these requirements, but the rest are awful. Mildmay probably being the worst offender, failing all 3 points, it isn’t even the closest line to the Mildmay hospital. We should have had Brunel line for the East London line (owing to the Thames tunnel), regents line for the north London line (as it runs along the canal), Harlequin line for the Watford line (as it was the former name) and obviously Goblin for the Goblin. All of these are memorable, easy to say and relevant to the lines in question. Also why didn’t the east London line keep the orange colour, since that’s where it came from when the overground was created?
They've all already got perfectly good names! I'm going to keep calling them.... The Watford DC Line, The Goblin Line, The North London Line, The East London Line, The Lea Valley Lines and the Romford to Upminster Line. I The are all operated as London Overground. These names are historic and reflect where they go and would not be confusing to Londoners and tourists alike.
I don't mind the cultural significance and meaning behind the renaming, but I suppose it's more important to keep the names accessible and memorable. Suffragette and Windrush can be challenging to pronounce, and having two lines starting with the same letter doesn't help people remember all the new names. Instead of creating entirely new names, they could have reintroduced names already in use or widely known (e.g. Globin and East Ldn line).
If there's anything I've learned from watching these videos over the years, it's that names are very fluid. I'd almost wager that at least one of these lines will be renamed within twenty years time for [important reason at that time]. Remember you read it here first.
Just noting the Windrush line is by far the line I’ve seen the most criticism of online, to the point where aside from a couple about the Suffragette line it’s been the only one I’ve seen talked about.
Once I saw american Tourists deciding to take the Jubilee line to Barking (this was at Highgate) and the jubilee line dont even go either of those stations
According to the blurb, the word 'Liberty' refers to 'freedom' as well as the historical meaning in Havering. For any modern politician to talk about freedom sounds like a sick joke, as they're taking our freedoms as fast as they can.
10% of us males (and 2% female) are affected. Quite a few. It'll only be another few million wasted by that idiot mayor to revert back to how it was so never mind!
Just to add my thoughts of what the lines should have been called: Harlequin line North London line East London line Goblin line Liberty line Weaver line I'm sure it's not too difficult to work out which is which. I do like the names Liberty and Weaver and I think they work as the lines in question do not currently have a specific line identity where's the others do have (or did have) existing names which people are familiar with. Thanks again Jago and I'm glad you enjoyed your break! 😂
I can't be the only one thinking that the "Weaver Line" should have just been named the "Jazz Line" for historical purposes and the way that the Jazz train frequency still remains with the quick turnarounds
i'm happy the lines are named but i would have preferred names that were neutral, goblin and harlequin should have been used as people knew the two lines as those already. the rest could have been named after an amalgamation of major stations/ interchanges on the respective lines. this would give people a good indication just from the name of the line where they go. who knows where the liberty line goes to and from without either already travelling on it a lot or looking at a map. i think a trick has been missed here.
Aethellstan wrote : _i think a trick has been missed here._ No they have not missed a trick. Their trick is to shove their political agenda down our throats.
I had part of the tfl map tattooed onto my foot last July. This change means the tattoo is now fairly well dated between the opening of the Elizabeth line (part of which is included), and this rebranding of the Overground and I am quite happy with that. However, as the Elizabeth line is also represented by thin coloured parallel lines, I wonder if that could look confusingly compatible with these new lines.
So you must be one of the two people who have subscribed to the Elephant Cricket Channel. I understand Pakistan is playing Thailand for the quarter finals today.😊
Now the overground is sorted, I think each national rail operator should give each of its service or lines distinct name. Southeastern, Southern and SWR are notoriously confusing if you aren't a commuter who has had the time to work out the operating pattern.
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Just an opinion from a non-Londoner: Because the Bakerloo is what it is, I definitely think the Goblin should have been considered.
absolutely.
Lewisham resident says: "Bakerloo extension NOW!"
Colour is fine.
@@marksimons8861Bakerlew?
Maybe in 10 years when the people at large insist on calling it the goblin in the everyday vernacular - which I don’t think is out of the realm of possibility.
Likewise, Euston-Watford should have been the "Eu-Wat" line.
My objection to the Suffergette Line is that the Women's Social and Political Union had very few supporters in east London. The WSPU campaigned for a wealth qualification for women to vote, which would mean that few of the working class women of east London would qualify. Instead they were sufferagists, who campaigned for votes for all women, not just the middle class.
It is often forgotten that their campaign was supported by much of the Conservative Party (as now, not all Tory MPs agreed on anything) as a counter to the pressure for universal male suffrage backed by the Labour and Liberal parties. Women were perceived as more likely to vote Conservative, as was true through the 20th century, and restricting it to more wealthy women reinforced that.
You're assuming more thought went into this than "let's name them after progressive political movements".
This important detail is in danger of being overriden or muddled in popular conception.
The Suffragettes planted and exploded several bombs causing injury on the rail network (including bombs that didn't explode at Piccadilly circus and Westbourne park tube stations) and were involved with railway arson attacks plus multiple deliberate acts of vandalism to the railway signal network with the intention of causing danger to passengers. The Suffragettes invented the letter bomb, and one exploded in a carriage mail compartment, injuring the train guard near Preston. While their campaign for change was laudable their methods were perhaps not a cause for commemoration on the railways.
I found it interesting that the marketing release chose to include Fawcett, who of course explicitly and vigorously opposed the Suffragettes, in large part because of the WSPUs taste for fascism - which the East End rather memorably opposed in 1936
Just imagine all the people who will be “Riding the Suffragette”. Marketing maybe didn’t think hard enough
"I'm riding over the suffragette", had a completely different meaning over 100 years ago......
): not again
oh no i missed the windrush!
@@redred7289 no
One wonders if it goes to the "Suffragette City" that Bowie sung of.
Aside from the Goblin, if the names had to be changed then I'm most disappointed the East London Line wasn't called the Brunel line for the Thames Tunnel.
Brunel was a man, and clearly, whoever was the activist in charge of coming up with these names, wasn't interested in celebrating the legacy of one of those.
Yes Isambard Kingdom Brunel was a huge figure in the UK's history. He is more important than a Windrush.
@@Mgameing123 in your opinion.
@@Recessio The Brunels were responsible for so many things in the engineering sphere. What did the ingrates of the Windrush do that we couldn't do without them?
@@englishciderlover7347they did lots of dirty jobs for poor rates of pay that the lazy natives would not do.
They should have left the Goblin as The Goblin.
But just goblin, not goblin line
They made it green at least
I think you've nailed it: the names are so arbitrary and are only relevant to what is fashionable at the time of them being chosen, instead of literally anything else.
I honestly couldn't believe how poorly explained the Liberty line was on the press release.
That's a straight-up American name.
Havering line would have been self explanatory.
@@TheRip72 All the lines should have been given names that are geographically accurate. That would have prevented controversy at a stroke.
I think the "Liberty line" is one of the best names of the lot, if they'd explained it properly.
@@englishciderlover7347Who cares, the controversy will be little more than some shouting on Twitter for a few days
With such a major change to the Underground map perhaps there's been a missed opportunity to name one of the lines after Harry Beck!
Born in Leyton then I would guess the Goblin would have been the closest to change in his honour. The Beck line does roll of the tongue easily, making it clear and concise and easy to understand.
They could get a Harry Beck look-alike to cut the ribbon! Hmmm, any suggestions?
Private Walker off Dad’s Army? 😂
It should be remembered that the Suffragette movement was totally opposed to giving the vote to working class women, who they considered to be too stupid to be trusted with a vote.
I can absolutely guarantee you that the people who came up with the "Suffragette line" name did not know that, and that they only did some cursory research before choosing which line got the name.
Also they had a terrorist wing that carried out an extensive arson and bombing campaign
they were also Far Right sympathisers.
Such a pity that Wimbledon isn't on one of these lines, to give us the "Underground Overground" ;)
Underrated comment
They'd have to extend it to Bulgaria.
@@PortiaChambers-rr5mx Or even Wellington, NZ.
@@englishciderlover7347 Via Cholet, Tomsk and down the Orinoco.
I always imagined that the Overground could be extended from Clapham Junction via East Putney to Wimbledon. I internally refer to it as the Womble line for that reason. However this would make it less of a circle (plus I think the current route SWR sometimes uses only works northbound atm).
Bring back the GOBLIN!
As in Red Ken. Dare I say yes he was better.
Broke my heart
No chance. Anyone earnestly advocating for a name change will be branded as misogynist.
When did it go out of fashion 😊
That name GOBLIN made sense!
You absolutely nailed it, and also completely convinced me of the Liberty name's virtue. I would have thought the East London Line and Goblin would be kept for historical and hysterical value respectively and it's such a shame to lose them.
I'm not from the area so don't hate me for saying this, but when I heard the names of these lines I wouldn't have even been able to tell you where this line is. Surely the Havering Line would have been better as those that use the line regularly will use it and know where it goes anyway, those that don't, but might occasionally, will immediately know what line to take, which signs to follow without having to check. That's my only objection.
The problem with the name Liberty Line, apart from the fact that it's a pretentious name for such a short line, is that there were several liberties in London.
@@DadgeCity If I didn't already know the Overground doesn't go there I would have thought the line went to the famous department store Liberty's!!! I know it's spelt differently but I just find the name odd.
@@mattpotter8725 None of the names tell you where the lines run... Also, no one uses the Romford - Emerson Park-Upminster regularly!
@@DadgeCityYou could say TfL are taking quite a few liberties with these names..
I let out a loud laugh when you mentioned you "only follow sports which involve elephants". You are the Elephant to my Castle.
I am told that elephant polo is or was a thing on the subcontinent. But I'm not sure if I should believe that?
Is elephant-pushing a thing?
@@weswheel4834 only on Tuskmaster
Yes it was and possibly still is.
I now picture Jago in a topee hat during the days of the Indian Raj hunting elephants. That image will not go away now!
Suffragettes have been confused with working class suffragists
You'd think they'd have gone deeper than the most basic pop history wouldn't you?
@@ohpurpled You'd think so. This proves to me that it isn't researched and instead is just an attempt at pandering. Which is disappointing really, it would have been more respectful to the history and communities if it wasn't half-arsed. If anything, if the theme is to remain they should rename it to the suffrage line, Pankhurst line or Huggett Line. (Also not forgetting the suffragettes were upper class eugenics supporting train station bombers) the suffragists were the ones whos movement achieved the vote.
@@ohpurpled The history of London, England and Britain means nothing today's politicians.
@@ohpurpled not with the current populist clown.
You expect some Oxford or Cambridge educated pseudo leftist marketing people to know history??
Thank you for explaining the Liberty Line. I for one hadn't understood it historic significance of the name when it was announced.
However I think the Goblin will always be the Goblin & the Lioness will get renamed as soon as another England team actually wins something, so it may stick around for some time.
Hence why they should’ve gone with something like the Wembley Line
@@DanTheCaptain Or the Harliquin Line as it used to be called in NSE days.
As a former st Kilda supporter I can say
I know what it’s like not to have won since 1966 and knowing victory is never coming
@@Mgameing123 Harliquin is even better honestly
@@avus-kw2f213 At least St Kilda Cricket Club produced some bloke called Shane Warne.
Nah. The Gospel Oak to barking line will forever be the Goblin Line. AFAIAC
Just Goblin. The 'lin' in Goblin is short for 'line'.
Old farts like me who worked the line still know it as the T&H. (Tottenham & Hampstead Joint)
@@polythenewrappedme6102 If you can remember it as the Tottenham & Hampstead Joint, you must be ancient.
I was taught that by an elderly colleague, who would be over a hundred now.
Just as the Lioness Line will forever be the Watford DC Line to me...even passengers surprisingly refer to it as that!
The Lioness Line will certainly not sit well when the Womens team catch up to the 'achievements' of the Mens team! As you say, it does feel like they've gone with what's popular at the time.
It's the weakest of the names, by far.
How can one ride a Lioness?😟
Why is there no name for the native white people? Why is it all far left social propaganda names?
@@Ribeirasacra Very, very carefully.
The Lions would have been better, representing both the women team and the men team.
Hopefully this will make the Underground map readable again! Last time I stayed in London I kept spending at least a kilometre walking to my hostel in Bethnal Green because I didn't realise that the Overground connection was a normal train!
Thanks Jago - sensible and measured comments - they should have put you in charge of this! As you say though, in due course everyone will forget the reason for the names, and "the Suffering Line" will become part of London's culture.
I thought the same - sense check it by running it past Jago Hazard before spending any public money on it
This should never have happened. It's an embarrassing waste of money. I mean The Lioness Line? FFS Really?
@@UranusMcVitieFish-yd7oq renaming and recolouring the lines was entirely necessary. Plenty of room for debate about the names settled on as a result, but to say it shouldn't have been done at all is just silly.
The Suffering Line? So the modern Central Line then XD
@@laurencefraser hen they decided to use different colours, then maybe they should have named each line after its colour, like you would see on the metro systems abroad. Yes, it's unimaginative, but it's also politically neutral and won't cause arguments.
David Bowie has a song called Suffragette City and played the Goblin King in Labyrinth, so there's a connection.
Aha, that's why the song leaped into my head.
David Bowie line
@@crazyboutferrets They couldn't afford the ticket to name it after him. They were leaning on his connection too much.
... I'm not sorry.
@@crazyboutferretsI did think one called the Bowie Line might have been an idea, although he was from Brixton originally I think and as far as I'm aware no Overground line goes there, the nearest being what is now the Windrush line, but would calling that line the Bowie Line be right? I don't know.
@mattpotter8725 It actually runs right through the middle of Brixton without stopping. They have looked at adding Overground platforms at Brixton, but it seems that that's too costly. A possible alternative would be to reopen East Brixton station (half-way between Brixton and Loughborough Junction), which closed in 1976 after being damaged by fire. Overground trains pass through the site.
I once (at Marylebone) encountered some American tourists consulting the tube map and deciding to take the Buckeroo line to Piccadilly Circle.
That’s awesome, they should use that.
A friend of mine once heard some Americans commenting on what a strange name "Inga Test One" was.
No it's not "just you". I used to think of 1977 every time I got on a Jubilee train. I guess - a name is just a name, so I can't find it in myself to get that exercised about them, but I do agree that lines like the Goblin, which already had some sort of established, if unofficial, identity do appear to have been subtly robbed of a part of their heritage. Anyway a nice summary Jago.
Yes, I do too. But mainly because I have become so much more aware of the history of the Underground through the wonderful work of Jago Hazzard and Geoff Marshall.
Being younger, I always think of the first jubilee that I lived through.
The "Lea Valley Line(s)" would have been perfect for the Liverpool Street section.
Imagine naming a line after the wide area it serves...
@@cmrailways I know! Right?!
The Mildmay would have been better named the Olympic line, since it connects the Olympic park at stratford and Kensington Olympia. Plus this name would celebrate one of the best moments in London's recent history.
The International Olympic Commission Ave a stranglehold on the O Word
I genuinely wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't use the word "Olympics" without permission.
@@bighamster2But 'Olympic' is merely an adjective, they surely cannot control that?
the Olympics were a waste of money - hospitals and schools needed the money
Yeah but it doesn't pander to identity politics types so no-can-do
I'm just annoyed they didn't make it goblin, they could have made the colour green or grey a popular colour for goblins in fiction so that it would also have an identity in itself (perhaps even a mascot) even if the stations change over time.
Yes actually in thought ea h line should have had a colour and mascot that matched the name, and they should have made a big song a dance about it, the beat way to get people to like a name (even a bad one) is to throw a party anyway l.
One thing about the colour choice is that we now have three purple lines and no orange line.
And the Mildmay terminating at Stratford is a very similar colour to the DLR ... would have been better to use that blue for any of the Lioness/Harlequin, Suffragette/Goblin, Weaver/Lea Valley or Liberty/🤷🏻♂ lines which don't interface with DLR.
"Do you like Havering?"
"I don't know, I've never havered."
Yes, I like Havering 😂.
ha·ver
[ˈhāvər]
VERB
SCOTTISH ENGLISH
talk foolishly; babble:
"Tom havered on"
I've never wyomed either but I like Wyoming.
@@rudestlink I've learned a new word! 🙂
I have havered, and as Charlie and Craig proclaimed, 🎵I know I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be the man who's havering to you 🎵
2:17 This is why we love you, Jago
We've all been waiting for this one to come online.
Well, broadly what I thought, certainly about the Lioness line. So was it worth the wait? Absolutely. The liberty line explanation was interesting to hear and has made me happier about that one. All in all it's a mixed bag, and I think that's a shame. Some unifying principle would have been nice. I'd be happier if the Lioness was the Stadium line or just the Wembley line, which would surely help concert and sport goers. Another option would have been to reference the South asian community in some way.
@@RollerbazAndCoasterDad yes the Vemberley line has a better ring to it with the accent of course.
@@englishciderlover7347 no the south Asian community
They really shoulda brought back GOBLIN and named Croydon to Islington the Brunel line (after the Wapping Tunnel)
Unfortunately for his chances of getting a line named after him, Brunel was a W hite man.
@@englishciderlover7347You can say the word white. It’s fine. Look, I just did it! White. White. There’s no conspiracy to silence you online for saying the word white. You’re as dim as the people who came up with some of these line names.
Hear you for hours? Yes, please!
I agree. Jago is a pretty good orator and I could certainly listen to him for longer than most of his wonderful videos.
As an old libertian (I went to the royal liberty school) I like the name of the liberty line. My grandmother used to call it the push me pull you, as it has a cab at both ends.
Yes, why not the Jake Line, or the Old King Coles Line? Are you Rick Tolbart , by any chance?
@mikeuk4130 Oh s**t, another old fart who must be as old as me ! I got caned by Jakey. Horrible to think something other than Hell being named after that place of eternal torment !
As a fellow Ol' Boy, I see the RLS never attained its wish to remain ex-grammer. All multiple unit trains have a cab at both ends, even today. The name push-pull predates this. It came from the fact that when the line was steam hauled, the loco used to run round at a passing loop to the north of Emerson Park, so it pushed and pulled. Oh s**t, does that make me as old as your grandmother !
My grandmother was born in the 19th century, so I don't think you are as old as her. And yes, I am Rick Tolbart, who are you, Mikeuk4130?
@@mikeuk4130 I am Rick Tolbart, who are you Mike?
'Weaves it together' saw that pun Looming ;)
My biggest annoyance is they've not fixed the problem. The Weaver line isn't a line at all, its multiple, hence they were previously called the Lee Valley Line*s* So there's still ambiguity when faults are being reported etc.
So.... perhaps they should've considered line numbers??
The weaver line is basically one line as most of the trains seem to be chingford- lsx- Enfield-lsx-Chingford so a delay on one impacts the overall line
I think they've mostly fixed the problem. It's good enough if you're just naming and not numbering them. They all start at Liverpool Street and go to Enfield Town, Cheshunt or Chingford. It's technically three lines but they partially use the same tracks, so it's good enough when it comes to London. Just look at the tube: The Piccadilly Line goes to either Uxbridge or Heathrow (and either to terminal 4 or 5 there), the Central Line has Ealing Broadway and West Ruislip on one side and Epping and the Hainault Loop on the other side, including the shuttle. The Metropolitan Line has four termini in the west and fast trains, so good luck, and the District Line, well...have fun. If we named all of these, you couldn't keep track of all of them. Oh, and the Northern Line...
They only share 4 stations though, not really comparable to Piccadilly which is mostly the same and only varies the end. Northern line has same problem, should be two different.
@@Whoop0The Northern line can't just be easily split into two if you retain current service. If you just call the routes via Charing Cross and Bank different things you'll end up with both new lines running along both northern branches. If you want to clean it up youd need four, and then you still have the odd Charing Cross train to Morden and whatever goes to Mill Hill East.
Graphic designers messed up - see Mildmay diagram at 3:28. Spur facing wrong way, implying a direct service between Richmond and Clapham Junction. On a more pedantic note: Station for Wembley Stadium is Wembley Park on Met and Jubilee lines, not Wembley Central on Lioness line. Big Caribbean community in Brixton, but no Windrush station there. MIldmay line services pass remnants of Mildmay Park station. This closed in 1934, so possible negative association. And people will probably still say Goblin. In Bristol, they changed the name of The Galleries shopping mall (soon to be demolished) to The Mall. Bristolians continued to call it The Galleries and the original name was reinstated. Bristol City Council invented names for various parts of the city (e.g. West End, Old City, Temple Quarter) and incorporated them into signage, official announcements etc. No one uses them. Good luck TfL.
Naming a line after a sporting achievement is a hostage to fortune. In some future championship the "Lionesses" may perform somewhat poorly and everyone will not want reminders. And I thought the suffragettes colour was purple, not green. Well, as someone who used to travel frequently on the "Weaver" line between Liverpool St and Enfield Town in those dreadful Gresley "quint-arts" carriages behind the delightful N7 0-6-2T locos I'm probably too old to reply care any more!
Purple green and white for suffrage. Power, hope and purity
@@RollerbazAndCoasterDadhoping it is on time or that it runs at all. 😉 I think purple wld have been better
By the time England women are bad at football, people will have largely disassociated the origins of the name anyway, much like with the Jubilee and Bakerloo, for example.
@@RollerbazAndCoasterDad If their version of purity is being terrorists, then yes.
Good discussion. Some of the London tube lines have seemingly illogical names but we live with them. I like the idea of naming lines. In other cities such as Paris and New York the lines are identified by either a colour or a number which is a lot less memorable than a name and thereby less easy to navigate.
Technically, New York distinguishes between services, the 1, 2, 3, A, C, E, etc. and lines which carry multiple services, which are simply named after what they run along like the 2nd Avenue Line etc.
@@txquartz OK but I still think that individual names such as the Bronx, Yankee Globetrotter or maybe Hudson Lines in New York or the Croissant, Baguette, Coup de Gras or Cris de Coeur Line in Paris would be more memorable.
Love the way Jago says he's not going to get involved in the politics of the new names and then proceeds to trash almost all of them. Excellent!
I'm still going to call them the North London Line, East London Line, Goblin, DC Lines etc
'Norf London', guv'nor.
You can call the Elizabeth line Crossrail if you wish - but you will only confuse other people if you use that name.
and in the process confuse anyone to whom you must give directions, I suspect. At least those sufficiently non-local that they have need to consult a map in order to follow them.
I was in Rome, everyone directed me to Fumico Airport. Went to the Railway to catch the train to Fumico. No signage to Fumico anywhere. After an anxious half hour or so dragging our cases around the station I finally found someone who spoke English. Fumico was Leonardo De Vinci Airport. Those signs were obvious. Caught the train, caught the plane. Individualism is wonderful, but language is used for communication of information.
I’m not from the UK, let alone London, so I don’t truly have any skin in this discussion. However, as an outsider looking in, these specific names seem to have been chosen for, shall we say, political expediency. IMHO, these names appear to be pandering to improve opinion polls amongst Women (Suffragettes, Lioness), LGBTQ+ (Mildmay) & People of Colour (Windrush).
Opinion from Australian living in London for the last over 4 years: As much as people might hate the names now, fact is that it's better now that they have actual names and distinct colours. People are gonna get used to it over time but it'll be way easier to understand for the less-familiar.
Up here in Newcastle our Metro light rail is referenced by colour. Not the trains, they're mostly yellow, but the colour on the maps.
So, to keep in line (haha!) with the metropolis, we should rename the lines. The one to the Airport could be Whippet, the coastal loop Flat Cap, and the Sunderland one has to be Oblivion. Oh, and let's not forget the line to South Shields, that one would be either Stottie or Mushy Peas.
can't say i'm a fan of the new names; i would rather they used something distinct and memorable that gives an indication of location or use
might just be me being a train nerd, but something like 'north london line' seems much more sensible - tells you where it is, what it does, and can't be easily confused with something else you might be trying to talk about
I am definitely with you on this one.
North London Line is my least favourite suggestion - it’s a massively overloaded term at this point with the Northern Line and the Great Northern railway, both of which it would connect with!
North London line is way too similar to Northern line! You as a transport enthusiast may not think so, but the general public will!
North London Line and The Northern Line isn’t actually distinct. Lea Valley Line perhaps or am I confused about which line you are referring to ?
"North London line" would inevitably somehow end up full of confused tourists trying to to catch the Northern Line, unfortunately.
By going for distinctive names, they have at least reduced that sort of confusion to a minimum
I agree that renaming the individual lines is a good idea though, like a lot of people, not a fan of some of the names finally chosen. I was really hoping they'd make Goblin official as every time I hear that name it makes me giggle. I'd heard someone recently make a great suggestion of Olympic for the North London Line as it links three areas of London associated with past games: Stratford (2012), White City/Shepherd's Bush (1908) and Richmond Park (1948).
That's a good suggestion. The cycling road race also went through Richmond Park in 2012.
I agree but I suspect there would be copyright or licensing issues with the use of the Olympic name.
Olympic was a great idea. As for the lines that had acquired a nickname, I think the committee should have respected vox populi but I am just a foreigner.
The Olympics can't possibly claim to have a copyright on the name of a Greek concept from BC
@@adamcetinkent They can't probably but they do frequently strike anyone using olympic
The Romford to Upminster line never used to terminate at Upminster, it used to cross the District lines to the London side of Upminster station, then on to the LT&S lines to branch off via Ockendon to terminate at Grays, although some trains would continue to Tilbury.
Even my mum, who used that line to get to school in Grays when it was still a steam train, can't remember a direct Romford - Grays service, and my mum's really old!
We always referred to it as the Emerson Park Line.
It has run as a shuttle between Romford and Upminster only since 1956!
The through service to Grays ceased when London Underground built a new depot and platforms for the District Line at Upminster, which severed the connection and so now there is no physical access from the branch to the other LTS lines.
@@stevieinselby The line only opened in 1893. It's been a shuttle between Romford and Upminster for just over half its existence.
Got to have a drive of a Class 302 from Upminster to Grays as an 11 year old back in 1980. My dad was the signalman at Upminster and I used to spend the weekends in the box with him. Got the cab invite one day when handing over the branch token one Saturday.
What you said has a lot of sense, so I agree with it. As a foreigner, the Overground has always been very confusing to me because I had no idea that they were different lines. It seemed all one route and it was indeed confusing! Better line it will be now.
Few people have any objections to the lines having different identities. It is the wiping out of heritage names and the imposition of these new names (which break with naming convention as well) that people object to.
I've genuinely been looking forward to this video since the news was announced!
It’s Jago’s seamless puns for me. Also, some of us could listen to you for hours haha
What I don’t like about the names is it breaks the pattern of what the underground lines were named after, the majority of them being about the areas they serve or something to do with royalty. I think if they just chose to name the lines how everyone had been calling them for years, there would be much less complaining.
circle, District, Bakerloo, northern aren’t named after royal themes.
@@andrewlong6438 "the majority of them being about the areas they serve or something to do with royalty" Bakerloo fits under "areas they serve"
The complaints are mostly from non-Londoners. They're irrelevant.
@@MarioFanGamer659 apart from that, the only ones that give an idea of their geography are the Hammersmith and City, and Waterloo and City. Some (eg Piccadilly) are named after one place on the route, but that's not very helpful if you are heading anywhere else. Northern and Central are geographical, but the former goes further south than, and not as far north as, other lines; and most lines serve Central London. Metropolitan goes further from the metropolis than most others; District is meaningless (which district?). People get used to the names and that's all that matters.
@@andrewlong6438 No but the circle line is named that because it is circular, the Bakerloo is a combination of Baker street and Waterloo and the northern line serves north London. I specified both royalty and location served.
Still the Windrush has gotten the nickname "The Fart" or "The Windy"
When ever I hear that word, I always think of someone's Newingtons acting up.
Given that derivitives of 'Windy' being used as shorthand/slang for things regarding the West Indies is both a very common thing in English and seemingly the origin of the name in the first place, that's hardly a problem and is likely to stick. 'The Fart' hopefully not so much.
😂😂😂
Whenever I visit London again I'll be sure to ride the Fart.
@@Jasper_4444 There actually is a public transport company in switzerland called FART (Ferrovie autolinee regionali ticinesi, Regional Bus and Rail Company of Ticino). So around Locarno you can already ride FART trains and busses
The Goblin will just become the Suffering Goblin
need art of goblins being suffegrates!
Sounds like a pub name 😂
Good point at the end. As Jay Foreman pointed out on 5live on Friday, the names will eventually just stick as others have from the past and people will use them without giving the association much thought.
oh i missed Jay Foreman
Perhaps. And perhaps not.
It's always been the Goblin... and it always will be!
No, it hasn't. It never used to go to Gospel Oak, it used to run via Kentish Town to St Pancras.
@@alejandrayalanbowman367it's been the GOBLIN for at least a generation.
@mbrady2329 yep agree with that
@@alejandrayalanbowman367 Not as part of the Overground it wasn't.
If you want to do a video on the connection between spitalfields and weaving I would certainly love to watch it. All I know Spitalfields past is the old flower and fruit markets as my Dad was a Greengrocer and my Grandad was a nurseryman.
The only reason I can think for them not using orange as a colour for any of the existing lines is that its been reversed for the West London Orbital, since they've used that colour in maps showing the route. Though on the subject of colouring, since the DLR, Trams and Elizabeth line also use the two lines for their colours, it might become increasingly confusing to distinguish between the Overground routes and the non-Overground routes to people who don't know the transport system well. Or Overground will fade into obscurity until it becomes meaningless anyway
I felt the orange should be retained for all the Overground lines either as the outer layer or as a central core, with the other proposed colours inside or outside. That would keep its distinctive identity.
Hi Jago,
I agree entirely about the Lioness Line not being a very sensible name.
The reason for it's naming will be forgotten in all too short a time, for its own good.
Also The Suffragette Line, (which is my local line).
I made my points clear in social media postings that it would have been better to have named it the Pankhurst Line.
Afterall, the Pankhust sisters were incarcerated in Holloway Prison and the route passes quite close to that part of the world at Upper Holloway.
Not only the Pankhurst Line is less than a mouthful to say, it also has a much better 'ring' of a name to it.
Of course as you said it will be the butt of jokes wherever it's not working through failures or engineering works, (which frequently happen) whenever I seem to want to use it.
A better alternative name would have been "The Bus Replacement Line'!
The Goblin, is one of the original and favourite names with many and myself for the route.
So long live the Goblin!!
If they wanted a line with a football connection, they could have had the Goal Line. To honour all London's politicians, there is the Party Line. As a reminder of the importance of punctuality on the Railway - the Dead Line. We have alreadt head the suggestion of the Leaves on the Line.
Literally the Football Line, the Golden Arches or the FA Line would've been better. I admit they are still bad.
Missed opportunity to officially name it the goblin line since people already call it that had its already a well known name for the line
It's not. You local ruffians may call it the Goblin, but those of us outside of Laaaaaaaaaaaandan have no idea what the thing is called other than the trains are ALWAYS BLOODY LATE.
@@burkezillarsome non London train nerds also know it as the goblin.
The green line should obviously be called the Hazzard line.
Diagonal black and yellow stripes, surely?
Gospel Oak to Barking Riverside will always be the Goblin. My thoughts on the rebranding can be summarised like this; if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
specially when 'fixing' things costs well over £6m.
Goblin! Goblin! Goblin!
My only beef with this is, as I live locally, Windrush Square is in Brixton and the Wibdrush lines goes through Brixton NON STOP, there is no station on the line there! People might think a way to get to Windrush square would be the Windrush line but the nearest stations are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street, both about a mile away.
100% agree, I can't believe Windrush goes right through Brixton but doesn't stop.
Then it's time for the Windrush line to stop in Brixton
Then it's time for the Windrush line to stop in Brixton@@EChid
The explanation I've heard is that it would be a challenging engineering project because the station would be on a viaduct. But there used to be a Brixton station on an adjacent viaduct. East Brixton was on a viaduct. On the East-West line, the new Bletchley High Level station will be on a viaduct. I'm wondering what the real obstacle is.
@@jackmartinleith I'mpretty sure they said that the new bridge over the SR Brixtio station was built so that platforms could be built, but then they only had 2 car trains on the line.
The monikers of the Underground lines evolved over time. With the Overground, both the North London and Goblin evolved by themselves, yet are now officially gone. Hopefully, just as the Waterloo & City's more widely used epiphet has survived, so will Goblin ... and CROSSRAIL (dammit!!).
I 100% agree and I'm glad that an actual Londoner agrees with me.
Was looking forward to this video as soon as I saw the email! :D
All this money thrown at it now. Agree with all your comments. Thank you so much for this video.
Weaving line is lovely, Windrush line with that context is nice as well.
Most of the people on the Windrush were from Poland, so that's another bit of muddled history.
Liberty was the Telephone Exchange name for Merton & Morden in pre-STD. days. LIB was dialled for making calls.
Subscriber Trunk Dialling - for anyone wondering what STD stands for in this instance
That would have been named for the connection between William Morris (who had a studio in Merton) and the Liberty design/textile firm. So it would have been equally or more relevant to use the name for the line which serves Walthamstow, Morris's birthplace.
Thx. @@davidemmott6225 You've told me something I never knew.
Didn't Alfred Hitchcock make a film called "Dial M for Merton"?
@@danjcollier I was sure s-lly transmitted diseases predated the telephone.
Regular users of these lines will have their own shorthand for the new names, which will not please City Hall.
They clearly tried so hard to get their politics immortalised in the lines names that they never stopped to think those names are going to be the butt end of jokes and derogatory nicknames.
Now it doesn't matter what they had named the line, people will come up with their own nicknames and shorthands regardless of what City Hall would have named the lines.
But by naming the lines after things they personally think is important it will be inevitable that those insulting nicknames are going to be taken very personal.
When it was Silverlink, and those awful three carriage sets every 15 minutes (or next to never on weekends) the north London line was in my circles "ghettolink"
I doubt they'll care what you personally call them, to be honest. But the reality is that once it's on all the signage, they're largely be referred to by the official name or something pretty close to it (because otherwise no one else will know what you're talking about)
@@bighamster2 Except they quite probably won't. Almost every attempt to force a branding name onto individual National Rail lines (which is what the Overground lines are) anywhere in the country has failed. Local people have their own names for their local lines (or no special name at all) and that's what they use. Overground is successful as a brand because it builds on Underground, but individual line names are a different matter.
Birmingham's Cross-city line is known as that across the area, although attempts to give names to the other lines in the west midlands have failed, but over in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire it's debatable how many passengers know what the Robin Hood line is.
In Lincolnshire, nobody could tell you what route the Redwing line is; it's better known to staff as "the Joint line" and to passengers as "the Sleaford line", and the (only ever part-reopened) Ivanhoe line in Leicestershire is known as the Ivanhole by the staff but experience tells me that the passengers have absolutely no idea what the Ivanhoe line is supposed to be; use the name and immediately they lose all understanding of what you're talking about.
As with everything involving the Great British Public it's never wise to make categoric statements, of course. Maybe one or more of the Overground line names will be a big hit!
3:28 That map is back to front. There are no direct trains from Richmond to Clapham Junction - at least, not on the Mildmay Line, and TfL choose to ignore the existence of the other one. (The SW corner of the map only has any lines on it because the key for the map is put there)
I also noticed the map error. The Mildmay Line could not be called the North London Line, as it also includes the West London Line.
Been waiting for your reaction to this!
You are interesting
I live nowhere near London anymore and don’t generally tend to watch stuff like this but I’ve watched a few of these now
I think it’s just nice to hear someone talk about something they got interest in without being argumentative
I particularly enjoyed your “culture wars are boring”comment
Look forward to seeing more
7:27 For the most part I agree. However, I think the Romford-Upminster Line's colours are too similar to that of the Elizabeth Line, which obviously also stops at Romford. Those who are unfamiliar with the network could easily get confused and think that the Romford-Upminster line is a branch of the Elizabeth Line. Whilst there are plenty of similar colour schemes for lines on the network, I can't think of any other lines like this off the top of my head, that both stop at the same station.
Anyway, great video as always
DLR and Mildmay are very similar in colour, and look like they are continuous at Stratford
As a resident of Havering, I agree that “The Liberty Line” makes sense - what is now the borough of Havering was once part of the Royal Liberty of Havering. I cannot see the other names catching on, particularly as none of them have a demonstrable relationship with most of the areas they pass through.
I think tey'll catch on because there's nothing else you can really call them to someone you don't know. "Overground" was a made up name but it quickly became accepted, and i think thos is just the next step in that
The names are dreadful. There are 3 requirements for a name, it should be succinct and easy to say, memorable, and relevant either to the route or to the history of the line.
Liberty and Weaver are both ok and both meet these requirements, but the rest are awful. Mildmay probably being the worst offender, failing all 3 points, it isn’t even the closest line to the Mildmay hospital.
We should have had Brunel line for the East London line (owing to the Thames tunnel), regents line for the north London line (as it runs along the canal), Harlequin line for the Watford line (as it was the former name) and obviously Goblin for the Goblin.
All of these are memorable, easy to say and relevant to the lines in question.
Also why didn’t the east London line keep the orange colour, since that’s where it came from when the overground was created?
They've all already got perfectly good names! I'm going to keep calling them.... The Watford DC Line, The Goblin Line, The North London Line, The East London Line, The Lea Valley Lines and the Romford to Upminster Line. I The are all operated as London Overground. These names are historic and reflect where they go and would not be confusing to Londoners and tourists alike.
I think they should be named after places (eg Piccadilly line) far less contentious.
Or shapes ( circle ) or directions ( northern) or geometry ( central). The only underground line that’s named after a place is the Piccadilly.
@@francesconicoletti2547The Victoria line would like to have a word with you...
I feel Joseph Bazzleget should have had a line named after him, considering what he did for London.
Missed out on the Portillo Line again😂
He can have a DLR line 😂
I honestly think that letters would be best for the DLR
I don't mind the cultural significance and meaning behind the renaming, but I suppose it's more important to keep the names accessible and memorable. Suffragette and Windrush can be challenging to pronounce, and having two lines starting with the same letter doesn't help people remember all the new names. Instead of creating entirely new names, they could have reintroduced names already in use or widely known (e.g. Globin and East Ldn line).
If there's anything I've learned from watching these videos over the years, it's that names are very fluid. I'd almost wager that at least one of these lines will be renamed within twenty years time for [important reason at that time]. Remember you read it here first.
And my money would be on the Lioness line. It is too contemporary.
Its a pity Charles and DI divorced , I would have loved a Diana line
@@highpath4776 Perhaps when William V is on the throne...
@@mcarp555 The Charlie Line (for Bankers from the West End to Canary Wharf ?)
@@highpath4776 You could shorten "West End to Canary Wharf" and call it "Wed Wharf". 😜
Just noting the Windrush line is by far the line I’ve seen the most criticism of online, to the point where aside from a couple about the Suffragette line it’s been the only one I’ve seen talked about.
Once a Goblin, always a Goblin
Once I saw american Tourists deciding to take the Jubilee line to Barking (this was at Highgate) and the jubilee line dont even go either of those stations
As a Havering resident, The name 'Liberty Line' is perfect if you're going to name lines.
He convinced me that it's the winner.
@vapeymcvape5000 I went to the Hell hole that is the Royal Liberty School and I don't want to be reminded. I am still receiving counselling !
According to the blurb, the word 'Liberty' refers to 'freedom' as well as the historical meaning in Havering. For any modern politician to talk about freedom sounds like a sick joke, as they're taking our freedoms as fast as they can.
It sounds too American. They are always rabbiting on about freedom, liberty and similar slogans.
@@Dave_Sisson Liberty is part of the British political tradition too. Don't let the Americans pretend they have sole rights to the concept.
This is a fantastic improvement. In Manchester, the colours make it so easy know which tram to take, especially when one is inebriated.
That's an easy choice. Take the one that isn't inebriated.
@@kgbgb3663 😊😂😂
Personally I preferred the unofficial name of my local line, The Lea Valley Line from Liverpool St to Enfield, Chingford and Cheshunt.
As a red-green colourblind person, I'm really looking forward to the extra confusion of the new map!
10% of us males (and 2% female) are affected. Quite a few. It'll only be another few million wasted by that idiot mayor to revert back to how it was so never mind!
Just to add my thoughts of what the lines should have been called:
Harlequin line
North London line
East London line
Goblin line
Liberty line
Weaver line
I'm sure it's not too difficult to work out which is which.
I do like the names Liberty and Weaver and I think they work as the lines in question do not currently have a specific line identity where's the others do have (or did have) existing names which people are familiar with.
Thanks again Jago and I'm glad you enjoyed your break! 😂
You don't need the word 'line' with 'Goblin', as the 'lin' is short for 'line'.
Gospel
Oak to
Barking
LINe
@@englishciderlover7347 - I bet you pick people up on the use of "PIN number" too!
@@englishciderlover7347 I don’t think the Gob line works though.
@@stevesaul7975 Just stick with 'Goblin'. Nothing else is needed.
Change North London to Olympic Line and you’re onto a winner.
This is absolutely the most rational commentary I've seen on the topic. Thank you.
It won’t be long until people start calling it the Lion line and the Mild line and the Windy line.
I can't be the only one thinking that the "Weaver Line" should have just been named the "Jazz Line" for historical purposes and the way that the Jazz train frequency still remains with the quick turnarounds
April Fool’s Day has come early this year.
i'm happy the lines are named but i would have preferred names that were neutral, goblin and harlequin should have been used as people knew the two lines as those already.
the rest could have been named after an amalgamation of major stations/ interchanges on the respective lines.
this would give people a good indication just from the name of the line where they go.
who knows where the liberty line goes to and from without either already travelling on it a lot or looking at a map.
i think a trick has been missed here.
Don't forget that politicians will always do 'the current thing'. London means nothing to them, just as Karachi or Lagos mean nothing to me
Goblin may be in common usage, but the Harlequin Line was only called that briefly and nobody refers to it that way these days.
Aethellstan wrote : _i think a trick has been missed here._ No they have not missed a trick. Their trick is to shove their political agenda down our throats.
Only cost 50% more than was expected, their accountants must've been slacking.
Wasn’t budget £8m ?
I'm really happy they didn't go for 'Goblin' as I just have this unexplainable hatred for that name
I heard about the Overground so of course it was not a question of if but when.
I had part of the tfl map tattooed onto my foot last July. This change means the tattoo is now fairly well dated between the opening of the Elizabeth line (part of which is included), and this rebranding of the Overground and I am quite happy with that.
However, as the Elizabeth line is also represented by thin coloured parallel lines, I wonder if that could look confusingly compatible with these new lines.
So you must be one of the two people who have subscribed to the Elephant Cricket Channel. I understand Pakistan is playing Thailand for the quarter finals today.😊
Now the overground is sorted, I think each national rail operator should give each of its service or lines distinct name. Southeastern, Southern and SWR are notoriously confusing if you aren't a commuter who has had the time to work out the operating pattern.