*PLEASE READ CAREFULLY* THIS IS A TEST -- With this video, we are trialling a new way of doing things: the comments section below has been switched ON but will be *moderated by a third party*. The upshot? You get to leave a comment below the video and I don't get tied up by comment moderation to stay focussed on making the next video or podcast as well as keeping the Darko.Audio website and Patreon up to date. That means more content for EVERYONE. Our new third-party moderator is under strict instruction not to approve racist or sexist remarks, URLs, (the seeds of) conspiracy theories or the unsubstantiated ramblings of grumpy geezers.
Exactly! For instance, Steve clearly spends way too much on all of his fancy shirts when clearly my shirts from the local bargain basement store do the job every bit as good.
Every morning I get dressed I wish I could afford as many great shirts as Steve 😀 But yes, John has it spot on here. The worst of the "All you need..." people are those clearly speaking out of envy. Oh, and the worst of the worst are the "Your expensive stuff * can't * sound any better than my cheap gear, you idiot" ones.
Hello, That is pop on John, over the years (75 now) I've had an instances where relatives have visited taken one look at my system and basically called me an idiot, but with a few more expletives thrown in for good measure. They had cars worth, in the region of, £ 20,000 mine was worth about £ 8,000. They had £ 300 systems mine was worth almost the cost of their car. I have also had chats about diminishing returns when I upgraded my cartridge ( same slapped forehead same expletives). It's all about perceived value. These days and with failing hearing I'm just glad I can still hear the bloody thing. Thanks for that I may just show them your post.
What a morning !. Last week I replaced my old Skoda Octavia with a newer and bigger Superb. I am an idiot. I own three Professional Sony cameras..... my client uses my photos/video on the internet. Way overkill. Thats three more “idiots” to me. To top it all off, I became a Patreon of Darko last night, and the first thing he does is calling me an idiot at 7 o’clock in the morning. Love it. Thanks John. I agree I am an idiot, and a proud one !
This is one of my favourite ever TH-cam videos. As others have said it speaks to life not just Hi Fi. Its about being content and understanding that chasing does not always bring satisfaction - there's always something better or newer or....
A year later and this might be my favorite Darko video, and there are no device reviews or comparisons in it. What we have here is simply the ultimate truth of every person’s circumstances. Brilliant, Sir.
Wow! That was spot on! And not just for Audio, all of the different parts of our lives. I feel like you summed up a lot of what people feel and don't know how to say/express it. Great Video!
So true.. there are $15K cars, $50K cars, $150K cars and $1.5 million cars... they all get you from point A to point B. Yet, the experience is different as one goes up the ladder (from utilitarian to exhilarating to.... well, orgasmic) !
99% of the gear you own, i would never be able to afford but none less I love watching these videos. I don't think id be able to afford that JOHN DARKO coffee mug even..LOL. keep it up Sir! great video
So audiophiles are like nested Russian dolls. I sort of went through an inverse experience when a friend asked me to recommend components. So I gave him a short list based on 2 price ranges and felt rather smug. Of course he then proceeded to pick apart my choices and balked. I ended up recommending a cheaper solution that he ultimately was quite happy with especially after I helped him set it up in his home.
Another crucial aspect, aside from finances, is recognizing that everyone is at a different stage in their journey. At the outset of a hobby, splurging hundreds on your first headphone might seem absurd to most people. Yet, once you're captivated, the desire for an amp and a DAC sets in. Gradually delving deeper into the hobby, you transition from a casual participant to an enthusiast, uncovering more avenues for exploration. Your perspective shifts from mere monetary value to viewing the hobby as a means to learn, experience, and evolve.
I enjoy watching youtubers extolling the merits of older gear and why it’s relevant today to still seek out, learn to appreciate properly, and then enjoy, various bits of kit to see if they are decent performers in today’s world and how they compare. So when you hear “‘all you need is”, step back and check out the possessions you already have and try to understand more about them is my tip. Once you have done that maybe upgrade if you can.
What a great piece! In a parallel world, now I've retired I am considering replacing the classical guitar I bought with my first salary years ago. I'm planning to leapfrog past higher quality factory instruments to a commissioned luthier guitar. The difference in cost will be ~3.5k Sterling compared to ~800 to 1k. Anyone who heard me play would know this is completely unjustified, but hey this is my Maserati!
Great video - agree 100%. One thing that is happening here is self-justification. When we say "You're an idiot" what we are really saying is "I am not an idiot." I made a good decision when I spent X on a whizbang Mk 3. Anybody who does something different to me has to be wrong. So the internet is full of "my car is better than yours", vinyl vs CD vs streaming, XBox vs PS, headphones vs speakers, Sony vs Nikon, Manchester United vs Chelsea. We join clubs and tribes so we can agree with each other that our doohickey is miles better than the other doohickeys. We read or watch reviews of products that we already own because we want to see our decisions being validated. It all comes down to a basic human need to protect ourselves. That includes protecting ourselves from criticism that we made a bad choice. I bet we've always been doing it, since the time when Ug argued with Ogg that a spear was better than a club.
“One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”. Brilliant and succinct, on par with the coarser “It’s my money, and it’s none of your business what I do with it”.
This made me feel better about preferring CDS and Blurays to Spotify and Netflix. Other people's comments about me "wasting money", being "stuck in the past" or them not thinking there is any significant difference in quality were getting to me. You are right, though. They are talking about their circumstances, gear and priorities, not about mine. To me, it is worth collecting CDS and Blurays, for many reasons. I guess I am "stupid" from certain people's perspectives, but equally, they, too, are "stupid" from other perspectives than their own. And it needs to be about what is right for me. Not what is right for somebody else. Thank you. I needed this.
Well put. Great way of showing you're not an idiot without saying your not an idiot...Along the way hopefully teaching idiots and non idiots. Maybe I'm an idiot with the double negatives.
In all my years one thing I started to learn the older I get is that is better to get an expert, preferably a friend to make the decisions for you so this way you can enjoy the product and the media you play on it without losing focus on what's important, the media itself...You get rid of all distractions and focus better on what you are actually listening.
Well put. Enthusiasts can easily forget what others value. During my 15 year stint of selling hi-fi, I saw a lot of Bose Wave Radios in high end/executive homes and initially couldn't understand why. You have to remind yourself that not everyone is as "into it" as you are.
There is another dimension to this, which diverges from the pecuniary considerations: Situational Satisfaction. My wife and myself were grooving to 'Billie Jean' on a scratchy car radio yesterday, and it was bliss. I am sitting right now in my living room, ready to listen to music, and even my Muso2 will not suffice: In this room, at this moment, I will settle for nothing less than firing up the amp preamp cdp and DAC, and letting it bathe the room in Bliss. If one finds satisfaction in the music reproduction at a given level, and they are truly satisfied, that is bliss. Money does not need to be a major consideration in the world of music enjoyment, unless you let it get too involved Guttenberg is correct: All You Need is Love
We all define value differently. The trick is not really to question how others define it; rather we should honestly reassess our own view of value periodically. Sometimes, we end up running down rabbits holes of our own making.
These concepts are applicable for pretty much any interaction with anyone, ever. Your knowledge, items, even music collection are all reference points developed over a lifetime. So share, don’t dictate and project.
We’re all idiots since life is all about “point of reference”. The law of diminishing returns generally applies to people who have a greater disposable income. If we were to apply Maslow’s “Hierarchy of Needs”, nothing in this materialistic world is something we all really need... since the definition of “need” is at a different level altogether, not directly tied to accumulation or level of wealth. Thanks for the video. I thoroughly enjoyed your discourse. Namaste.
The only perfect answer to what someone needs is "It depends, what do you plan on doing with it?" Because only when you get the specifics of budget and intended use can you really answer the question. The chap with $100k to spend in search of the perfect listening room will want radically different gear than I do. I'm exceptionally pleased with my Samson SR850 headphones running through a 30 year old Kenwood amp, with a sub £100 DAC (SMSL M100 II) from my gaming machine, but the guy wanting perfection will not feel the same about my gear. The old standby of "Horses for courses" rings true for pretty well everything.
You have just described the whole problem with social media. People become less empathetic when they could hide behind a computer or phone and comment to anyone about anything without actually engaging with or thinking about that other person's circumstances. It's so easy to dismiss and call someone an idiot - insulting commenters too easily dismiss. When we are forced to really engage with someone who we disagree with, I think it makes us more empathetic. I'm surprised you called that Maserati owner an idiot to his face - that comment could have easily started a fist fight and in the US of course, you very well have gotten shot. Great video, excellent examples and should be applied to all YT channels and other social media platforms of all subject matters across the board.
I'm a real estate appraiser. This was the most brilliant context for creating what "Value" vs. "Cost" is. This should be mandatory ntroductory training for all Business Valuers, Equipment valuers and real estate appraisers. I just bought an NAD 33. And I am now so settled about it after listening to your video... Peace of mind is what I got!!! Thanks John
Thank you for this interesting video John, congrats! This is also yet another call out for people to take some time to actually enjoy what they do have and not constantly hang on analysing the flaws of their stuff. It is good to know that there are better things to look forward to, but if that thought prevents someone from enjoying the present moment, then it is just toxic and inhibits a sense of happiness. Happy music listening to everyone!
Philosophy from Darko.... You're correct of course. As some bloke in Judea once said two thousand years ago, "judge not, less you be judged yourself". If someone wants to spend their money on this hobby, yes it's a hobby, to squeeze the very best sound out of electrons and have the best ownership experience and still have resale value, and they can afford it, then all power to them.
Just bought my first new pair of tower speakers in 28 years! Odd thing is in 1992 i had no $ and spent $600 for the pair. Now in 2021 we are worth 7 digits + and I just spent $840 on new towers. When i watch Thomas & Stereo videos he constantly mentions that now that he has spent so many thousands and hundreds of thousands on speakers and gear and heard it all the new challenge for him is budget gear that really gets close to the high end and really suprises him.
John, Great video!! I want to put a slight twist on the subject, so I'm an Engineer and have a good understanding of the audio technology and am very interested in buying more high Ferrari type audio gear. I would fall completely for the promises of incremental upgrades but at that point I run into a big problem. My value proposition has a stipulation that spending loads of cash for high end audio equipment is fine as long as there are many race tracks to run my Ferrari on, meaning plenty of new and interesting music. I'm 62 and for whatever reason I have a huge problem enjoying much of the new content I run across, maybe I have a narrow band of acceptable types of content. It seems that my musical tastes have ran somewhat flat. I'm curious if other people are seeing this same issue. Back in the day I would go to the record shop to look for new releases and they would be playing tracks from the new arrivals and most visits I would purchase one or more LPs and have a new favorite song that would last for a few weeks. Now I listen to new content several times before I can make an assessment whether I like it or not. Your thoughts? Thanks
I’m 60 and am having a different experience. I’ve just bought a (for me) high end Hi-Fi, and through this channel am discovering a new world of music, specifically electronic. I still love my ‘old’ stuff but also thoroughly enjoy this new category. But not all of it, my taste is the more melodic. Finally I’d also like to say the Hi-Fi is critical to my enjoyment. I love the stereo imaging, sound stage, clarity. I would not get the same enjoyment from a Bluetooth single speaker
Love this video, very good perspective and insight on human nature that applies to many aspects of life. How's the saying go, "Those that seek to suppress your dreams are those that have forsaken their own"? Thank you John!
So true! I think we should talk more about “sound value”. Just because something is a big pile of money, that does not mean that it is necessarily expensive. Sometimes it is the other way around. The value HIFI brings to a person, is also proportional with how much you love music and great sound, simple as that 😉. We all have our cravings and priorities in life. 😂
What you are insinuating is that salesmen are not going to be able to help us decide on certain products. It is very easy to inform the other about your needs and then get a tip about the best thing that would fit those parameters.
"Love, love, love Love, love, love Love, love, love There's nothin' you can do that can't be done Nothin' you can sing that can't be sung Nothin' you can say, but you can learn how to play the game It's easy Nothin' you can make that can't be made No one you can save that can't be saved Nothin' you can do, but you can learn how to be you in time It's easy All you need is love All you need is love All you need is love, love Love is all you need All you need is love All you need is love All you need is love, love Love is all you need"
You are right - Audio people think they are special - bur car people and wine people think also they are special. So at the end it is a hobby and not a business. As long as you can enjoy what you have it is the right thing.
Technically, the point of diminishing returns occurs in a cost / benefit analysis when exponentially decreasing increments of improvement start to cost exponentially more provided that the definitions of both cost and benefit remain constant. It exists regardless of one's willingness or ability to pay more. Generally the makers of high end goods market their product by emphasizing additional benefits beyond the basic function of the product. The most familiar example is name brand vs. generic products. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you can comfortably afford it and know what you're really buying, it's your money to spend as you please. And I rely on reviews to help me figure out what I'm really getting for my money.
Great video. Especially in times when we are thrown measurements by these websites and a lot of people boosting their ego depending on measurements. Every person is different everyone has different priorities. Respect each other choices.
Man, I've learned so much from your channel in the short month that I've been watching your videos. It's been exponentially beneficial to my learning experience. I took on a second job so I could afford to upgrade my entry level system because the knowledge You've shared has so intrigued me. I'm using your reviews and suggestions to narrow my options and make a selection for my first real system. Keep brining the vids - live your content!
I know "audiophiles" who spend a lot of time but little money. Income is a basic requirement, but attitudes may not be correlated with income. I'd say that everybody designs their own "sweet spots" based on many factors. And one thing I have observed in the blogosphere: getting expensive freebies de-sensitizes the reviewer's perception of value. There is the odd university students who tells you that this and the $1500 earphone cable is "instant gratification". What I learnt in life: "instant gratification is for dummies".
We are just humans. Good too know. In psychoanalysis in general - and schools' rights - projection is part of a defense mechanism. The term projection consists of transferring and shifting inner-psychic content or an inner-psychic conflict by depicting one's own personal, affects, desires, impulses and properties, which can be related to one's own and / or social norms, to other people, groups of people, living beings or objects the outside world. The "defense" consists in that being separated by the projection, changing with oneself, the man when others are seen.
Brilliant! Love that this topic is being discussed more as of recent. The attitude and perception of people you described is what presently does and continues to keep more new people from investing and enjoying this hobby of hifi. Great message.👍
I liked a comment that has been attributed to Warren Buffet when he was apparently asked about Tesla. He said “he’d rather buy the shares than the car” or “the shares offer more value than the car” or something along those lines. Everyone including Buffet has a finite amount of money, time and interests. We choose to spend the finite time and money we have on what interests us most. It could be travel, audio, a nicer house, a better car, children’s education etc.
Spot on, John! Thanks for turning the comments back on. We all like what we like, and that's it! If it makes you happy, and is within your means.....so be it! Even if it's slightly beyond your means.........
The upper echelon of any hobby is largely psychological. There is an equal, tangible, place where we can all be content and say this is all we "need", however some of us can actually afford to cross that line and delve in to the territory known as "want". "Want" may in fact be technically better, it may be measurably better, but it may not achieve any real difference in experience than what was achieved at the "need" status.
This has to be one of the best clips, not only in your channel, but the Tube. It’s a life lesson or principle, doesn’t matter what you name it’s simply go live it and stop worrying about what other people think. If it matters to you that IS enough. Bravo!
I’ve noticed hi-fi TH-camrs are usually very good photographers. I’m proud of my photo chops and have reached my goal of my perfect audio system for me. I believe, photo/hi-fi guys are very detail oriented. I believe WE use our abilities to satisfy our physical senses. Seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and taste. I bet, we all cook well.
I totally believe you . My whole system cost less than my Casta Speakers ,now 21,000, l paid $6000, Now have Dual 1229 turntable, Grace F-9 cartridge Ruby cantilever and a hyper elliptical diamond stylus, Aune X8 magic DAC, Vault by Blue Sound. And a Audio Lab 6000CDT. I don’t care what anyone else thinks, and all I can say is live and let us love all .Good manner are king
While I'd like to really dig into the actual mechanics behind DAC design, I personally noticed a difference when I was give the chance. And perhaps it is actually the case that the technology is such to permit regular and ever more expensive tiers of performance, even eventually splintering into colours or options. I also sense that my Audiophilia is peaked and thus contingent upon the qualities elicited by a good DAC, despite the wish for that not to be the case.
Problem for me is more that people on either the same or less than me spending money they haven’t got on these crazy expensive things just to keep up with who they look up to, or the things they’ve been told to buy. Which like you said about diminishing returns is great because a lot of the time there is ways and means around those little extras sometimes, with cheaper versions, that can give you similar solutions to a problem you never new you had, which you never new you needed, which only makes you feel better. Haha
I only recently subscribed to your HiFi channel. And now you spend the first half of the video without even touching "audio". How great is that?! ThX. I'll stay 😎
Good talk. I'm being a bit pedantic but it's not exclusively about how much we earn but how much we have. Net worth influences our capacity to spend because it dictates how much discretion we have in our earnings.
There was a great opportunity here to open a profound issue regarding "luxury items" and branding, but it was missed. Value perception is the result of a social construct that has individuals acquiring certain kinds of products under the guise of "bringing value" to themselves. The person who buys an object that is displayed publicly, such as a Maserati, is intent on that vehicle communicating something about them. They have been acculturated to that association--they did not invent it independent of what they hope others will understand by their acquisition and public display. Similarly, a given Leica full frame camera and its accompanying lenses costs three times comparable cameras by Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, and Sony. The photographs they produce are utterly indistinguishable in the hands of an experienced photographer who is also expert at development processes in Photoshop or Capture One, etc. (something that has been proven repeatedly with blind testing). But the brand "Leica" carries with it a well honed set of cultural associations--what Bourdieu called "social capital." Other common, consumer brands do not provide an owner with the same personal sense of value. People buy into the mythology of personal value based on the marketing of a product. Consumerism is designed to make us feel "special" by what we can buy; and in most instances, what we can buy has to be seen by others in public for its effects to kick in. So when you say, "We all have personal perceptions of value," you are asserting that "perceptions of value" are truly personal an independent. I would suggest that perceptions of value are rather dependent upon a complicated social construct that results from well-structured marketing strategies designed to make people feel they will increase their personal value through specific forms of acquisition (not just electronics and cars, but in clothing, shoes, handbags, pretty much everything). I am not at all suggesting that professionals who use high end recording equipment or photographers who use medium format are making decisions based on these criteria. But your video is not addressed to the professional. Audio equipment is targeted at an acquiring public, not professionals. As for the question of diminishing returns: there are actually moderately priced products that out-perform some high-priced products, especially in circumstances where performance is highly subjective. A number of TH-cam reviewers have shown how some moderately priced microphones are indistinguishable in blind testing from microphones costing 10 times as much (cf., Booth Junkie's work). Speakers also represent that scenario. It's not only a question of diminishing returns. A person might actually find a $500 pair of speakers more pleasurable to listen to than a $5000 pair (an experience I recently had--I was shocked to experience a friend's new acquisition as both harsh and unrealistic--but he sure was proud of it!!!). I wish you would treat this theme more directly. Diminishing returns are not relevant to the person who believes an acquisition of an expensive object says something about their own self-worth. This is fundamental to all capitalist systems that need to motivate people to constantly increase their personal worth through acquisitions. This is not to say that people are not entitled to acquire fine objects that they might enjoy using. Let them enjoy! But it is to say that the myth of "value" should be exposed as just that--a myth. Interestingly enough, you, John Darko, and others (such as Steve Guttenberg) have periodically highlighted outstanding products at very moderate cost (e.g., Schiit products), where the "return" proves quite significant over other products of comparable or more money. In those discussions, there really is no question of "social capital." Those are the helpful discussions, where one has the opportunity to learn how to achieve a fine listening experience without the mythology of "high value." Thanks for listening.
Agree with other things but I am not sure with hifi its as simple as that as music is something deep within many of us, far removed from a pure status calculation. And then its very hard to test if something is better or not, but even listening causes us to listen to the music with fresh ears as it were. And we all want to feel more of the music magically reconstructing itself in front of us, even though we cannot see it. I am not sure spending money on hifi gets social kudos - it for me is a strictly personal pleasure. And i am pleased with this channel I have found a narrative that has enabled me to reconnect with it again. Certainly there are worse things than this to think about during a global pandemic!
I have been watching your videos for awhile and always enjoy. They are thoughtful, and provide insights for consideration, in addition to objective technology analysis, as well as your enjoyable subjective evaluation. Really quality work sir. Thank you for your efforts.
MANNNNN!!! I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS VIDEO!!!!! MY GOD! I'VE BEEN WORKING IN A HIFI STORE FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS AND YOU MY FRIEND HAVE JUST VALIDATED WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL ALL MY CUSTOMERS. THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO!
Great!!! I used a similar argument with my graduate economics students some time ago, except the “idiot” part (🤣). You nailed it from the economics point of view perfectly well!
I would be a lot richer if I had spent less over the last 40 years on Hi-fi, however I am now happy with my system and feel that any upgrades would be very much subject to the law of diminishing returns.
In audiophile world. We can get 2nd hand gears for a fraction of the original prices. That's why I always looking for good deals in used market. I just bought a streamer for less than half of original price. For cars, I only buy new because you never know what the previous owner had done to the car.
Thank you for this excellent video. We could all use more of the care and tolerance that you're advocating for here. At the very least, you've given me a good frame for approaching disagreements like these! Love your work, hope to keep watching for a long time.
I think as a hifi reviewer, it's also a different thing because investing in an high end system and really getting to know it, is like a investment in your channel and also in your knowledge. You only can differentiate quality, if you're familiar with what really good quality is.
Great analysis John. Insightful and intelligent commentary. I was once a wealthier man, so it's a bit easier for me to understand and thus avoid avoid the pitfall of considering someone an "idiot" for their purchase decisions. Good life lesson that many people in general would be well served by learning. Enjoy watching your channel, even though the higher end equipment is not really a viable purchase option for me at my current income level. Perhaps in the future, one can hope!
*PLEASE READ CAREFULLY* THIS IS A TEST -- With this video, we are trialling a new way of doing things: the comments section below has been switched ON but will be *moderated by a third party*. The upshot? You get to leave a comment below the video and I don't get tied up by comment moderation to stay focussed on making the next video or podcast as well as keeping the Darko.Audio website and Patreon up to date. That means more content for EVERYONE. Our new third-party moderator is under strict instruction not to approve racist or sexist remarks, URLs, (the seeds of) conspiracy theories or the unsubstantiated ramblings of grumpy geezers.
Love it!!
Exactly! For instance, Steve clearly spends way too much on all of his fancy shirts when clearly my shirts from the local bargain basement store do the job every bit as good.
😁
Every morning I get dressed I wish I could afford as many great shirts as Steve 😀 But yes, John has it spot on here. The worst of the "All you need..." people are those clearly speaking out of envy. Oh, and the worst of the worst are the "Your expensive stuff * can't * sound any better than my cheap gear, you idiot" ones.
What ever you say, just dont bring up the word klipsch ......bagel street..
Steve - stop calling people idiots :)
Funnily, the next video suggested by YT was John Darko's "Don't buy a new car. Buy a dCS Bartok."
Same
Just buy whatever you want and be happy with it regardless of what others can think...
Hello,
That is pop on John, over the years (75 now) I've had an instances where relatives have visited
taken one look at my system and basically called me an idiot, but with a few more expletives thrown
in for good measure. They had cars worth, in the region of, £ 20,000 mine was worth about £ 8,000.
They had £ 300 systems mine was worth almost the cost of their car. I have also had chats about diminishing
returns when I upgraded my cartridge ( same slapped forehead same expletives).
It's all about perceived value. These days and with failing hearing I'm just glad I can still hear the
bloody thing. Thanks for that I may just show them your post.
"We are all idiots"
That's a slogan I can get behind tbh
Thank you for enabling the comments! Sometimes you receive much more information from other's comments on the topic than the actual video.
Do you think so?
I love when this "thing" called hobby turns philosophical.
You should try playing a musical instruments, everything turns philosophical pretty easily
What a morning !. Last week I replaced my old Skoda Octavia with a newer and bigger Superb. I am an idiot. I own three Professional Sony cameras..... my client uses my photos/video on the internet. Way overkill. Thats three more “idiots” to me. To top it all off, I became a Patreon of Darko last night, and the first thing he does is calling me an idiot at 7 o’clock in the morning. Love it. Thanks John. I agree I am an idiot, and a proud one !
This is one of my favourite ever TH-cam videos. As others have said it speaks to life not just Hi Fi. Its about being content and understanding that chasing does not always bring satisfaction - there's always something better or newer or....
That's is why my $400 sound system sounds good enough to my ears and to my pocket...
A year later and this might be my favorite Darko video, and there are no device reviews or comparisons in it. What we have here is simply the ultimate truth of every person’s circumstances. Brilliant, Sir.
Wow! That was spot on! And not just for Audio, all of the different parts of our lives. I feel like you summed up a lot of what people feel and don't know how to say/express it. Great Video!
So true.. there are $15K cars, $50K cars, $150K cars and $1.5 million cars... they all get you from point A to point B. Yet, the experience is different as one goes up the ladder (from utilitarian to exhilarating to.... well, orgasmic) !
99% of the gear you own, i would never be able to afford but none less I love watching these videos. I don't think id be able to afford that JOHN DARKO coffee mug even..LOL. keep it up Sir! great video
John, this video is absolutely FANTASTIC, and goes way beyond the world of cars, camera's and hi-fi. It's life. Thank you.
As Crosby, Stills, and Nash once sang, "Love the one you're with".
Actually, that song came out on a Stephen Stills solo album. Good point, though, and one with which I thoroughly agree!
If I loved the one I'm with from the get go, I'd still have my cheap Mitsubishi music centre.
@@mrpositronia And I still have my 50 year old Pioneer SX727. And still HAPPY
The Beatles stated: All You Need Is Love :)
Not sure my wife would agree......
So audiophiles are like nested Russian dolls.
I sort of went through an inverse experience when a friend asked me to recommend components. So I gave him a short list based on 2 price ranges and felt rather smug. Of course he then proceeded to pick apart my choices and balked. I ended up recommending a cheaper solution that he ultimately was quite happy with especially after I helped him set it up in his home.
I ask them what they want. Their answer tells me alot of where they are at.
Another crucial aspect, aside from finances, is recognizing that everyone is at a different stage in their journey. At the outset of a hobby, splurging hundreds on your first headphone might seem absurd to most people. Yet, once you're captivated, the desire for an amp and a DAC sets in. Gradually delving deeper into the hobby, you transition from a casual participant to an enthusiast, uncovering more avenues for exploration. Your perspective shifts from mere monetary value to viewing the hobby as a means to learn, experience, and evolve.
Great video John. I am always interested in a discussion of “what is enough?”
I enjoy watching youtubers extolling the merits of older gear and why it’s relevant today to still seek out, learn to appreciate properly, and then enjoy, various bits of kit to see if they are decent performers in today’s world and how they compare. So when you hear “‘all you need is”, step back and check out the possessions you already have and try to understand more about them is my tip. Once you have done that maybe upgrade if you can.
What a great piece!
In a parallel world, now I've retired I am considering replacing the classical guitar I bought with my first salary years ago. I'm planning to leapfrog past higher quality factory instruments to a commissioned luthier guitar. The difference in cost will be ~3.5k Sterling compared to ~800 to 1k.
Anyone who heard me play would know this is completely unjustified, but hey this is my Maserati!
Great video - agree 100%.
One thing that is happening here is self-justification. When we say "You're an idiot" what we are really saying is "I am not an idiot." I made a good decision when I spent X on a whizbang Mk 3. Anybody who does something different to me has to be wrong.
So the internet is full of "my car is better than yours", vinyl vs CD vs streaming, XBox vs PS, headphones vs speakers, Sony vs Nikon, Manchester United vs Chelsea. We join clubs and tribes so we can agree with each other that our doohickey is miles better than the other doohickeys. We read or watch reviews of products that we already own because we want to see our decisions being validated.
It all comes down to a basic human need to protect ourselves. That includes protecting ourselves from criticism that we made a bad choice. I bet we've always been doing it, since the time when Ug argued with Ogg that a spear was better than a club.
Nice to see the comments switched on John 👍
“One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”. Brilliant and succinct, on par with the coarser “It’s my money, and it’s none of your business what I do with it”.
This made me feel better about preferring CDS and Blurays to Spotify and Netflix. Other people's comments about me "wasting money", being "stuck in the past" or them not thinking there is any significant difference in quality were getting to me.
You are right, though. They are talking about their circumstances, gear and priorities, not about mine.
To me, it is worth collecting CDS and Blurays, for many reasons. I guess I am "stupid" from certain people's perspectives, but equally, they, too, are "stupid" from other perspectives than their own.
And it needs to be about what is right for me. Not what is right for somebody else.
Thank you.
I needed this.
Well put. Great way of showing you're not an idiot without saying your not an idiot...Along the way hopefully teaching idiots and non idiots. Maybe I'm an idiot with the double negatives.
imo this is one of the best takes on subjectivity ❤️
In all my years one thing I started to learn the older I get is that is better to get an expert, preferably a friend to make the decisions for you so this way you can enjoy the product and the media you play on it without losing focus on what's important, the media itself...You get rid of all distractions and focus better on what you are actually listening.
Well put. Enthusiasts can easily forget what others value. During my 15 year stint of selling hi-fi, I saw a lot of Bose Wave Radios in high end/executive homes and initially couldn't understand why. You have to remind yourself that not everyone is as "into it" as you are.
Love this video, John. I’m definitely an idiot.
"Don't buy a new car, buy a dCS Bartok!" I listened to you (after a demo of course) and I bought it! Thanks for nudging me to get it. Great video!!!
There is another dimension to this, which diverges from the pecuniary considerations: Situational Satisfaction.
My wife and myself were grooving to 'Billie Jean' on a scratchy car radio yesterday, and it was bliss.
I am sitting right now in my living room, ready to listen to music, and even my Muso2 will not suffice:
In this room, at this moment, I will settle for nothing less than firing up the amp preamp cdp and DAC, and letting it bathe the room in Bliss.
If one finds satisfaction in the music reproduction at a given level, and they are truly satisfied, that is bliss.
Money does not need to be a major consideration in the world of music enjoyment, unless you let it get too involved
Guttenberg is correct: All You Need is Love
We all define value differently. The trick is not really to question how others define it; rather we should honestly reassess our own view of value periodically. Sometimes, we end up running down rabbits holes of our own making.
These concepts are applicable for pretty much any interaction with anyone, ever.
Your knowledge, items, even music collection are all reference points developed over a lifetime. So share, don’t dictate and project.
All of us are unique! The greatest takeaway from this insightful video. Thanks for creating and sharing 🙏🙏🙏
We’re all idiots since life is all about “point of reference”.
The law of diminishing returns generally applies to people who have a greater disposable income. If we were to apply Maslow’s “Hierarchy of Needs”, nothing in this materialistic world is something we all really need... since the definition of “need” is at a different level altogether, not directly tied to accumulation or level of wealth. Thanks for the video. I thoroughly enjoyed your discourse. Namaste.
Thank you for mentioning the law of diminishing return.
The only perfect answer to what someone needs is "It depends, what do you plan on doing with it?" Because only when you get the specifics of budget and intended use can you really answer the question. The chap with $100k to spend in search of the perfect listening room will want radically different gear than I do. I'm exceptionally pleased with my Samson SR850 headphones running through a 30 year old Kenwood amp, with a sub £100 DAC (SMSL M100 II) from my gaming machine, but the guy wanting perfection will not feel the same about my gear. The old standby of "Horses for courses" rings true for pretty well everything.
You have just described the whole problem with social media. People become less empathetic when they could hide behind a computer or phone and comment to anyone about anything without actually engaging with or thinking about that other person's circumstances. It's so easy to dismiss and call someone an idiot - insulting commenters too easily dismiss. When we are forced to really engage with someone who we disagree with, I think it makes us more empathetic. I'm surprised you called that Maserati owner an idiot to his face - that comment could have easily started a fist fight and in the US of course, you very well have gotten shot. Great video, excellent examples and should be applied to all YT channels and other social media platforms of all subject matters across the board.
That's right. Social media kills empathy.
Very well said! Thank you!
Excellent video, thoroughly enjoyed your stories (that may or may not be true!) haha
I'm a real estate appraiser.
This was the most brilliant context for creating what "Value" vs. "Cost" is.
This should be mandatory ntroductory training for all Business Valuers, Equipment valuers and real estate appraisers.
I just bought an NAD 33. And I am now so settled about it after listening to your video...
Peace of mind is what I got!!!
Thanks John
Thank you for this interesting video John, congrats!
This is also yet another call out for people to take some time to actually enjoy what they do have and not constantly hang on analysing the flaws of their stuff. It is good to know that there are better things to look forward to, but if that thought prevents someone from enjoying the present moment, then it is just toxic and inhibits a sense of happiness.
Happy music listening to everyone!
Painfully true! Far too much in life is judged by its price.
Philosophy from Darko.... You're correct of course. As some bloke in Judea once said two thousand years ago, "judge not, less you be judged yourself". If someone wants to spend their money on this hobby, yes it's a hobby, to squeeze the very best sound out of electrons and have the best ownership experience and still have resale value, and they can afford it, then all power to them.
All I want to say is you make fantastic videos. Thank you
Just bought my first new pair of tower speakers in 28 years! Odd thing is in 1992 i had no $ and spent $600 for the pair. Now in 2021 we are worth 7 digits + and I just spent $840 on new towers.
When i watch Thomas & Stereo videos he constantly mentions that now that he has spent so many thousands and hundreds of thousands on speakers and gear and heard it all the new challenge for him is budget gear that really gets close to the high end and really suprises him.
John, Great video!! I want to put a slight twist on the subject, so I'm an Engineer and have a good understanding of the audio technology and am very interested in buying more high Ferrari type audio gear. I would fall completely for the promises of incremental upgrades but at that point I run into a big problem. My value proposition has a stipulation that spending loads of cash for high end audio equipment is fine as long as there are many race tracks to run my Ferrari on, meaning plenty of new and interesting music. I'm 62 and for whatever reason I have a huge problem enjoying much of the new content I run across, maybe I have a narrow band of acceptable types of content. It seems that my musical tastes have ran somewhat flat. I'm curious if other people are seeing this same issue. Back in the day I would go to the record shop to look for new releases and they would be playing tracks from the new arrivals and most visits I would purchase one or more LPs and have a new favorite song that would last for a few weeks. Now I listen to new content several times before I can make an assessment whether I like it or not. Your thoughts? Thanks
I’m 60 and am having a different experience. I’ve just bought a (for me) high end Hi-Fi, and through this channel am discovering a new world of music, specifically electronic. I still love my ‘old’ stuff but also thoroughly enjoy this new category. But not all of it, my taste is the more melodic.
Finally I’d also like to say the Hi-Fi is critical to my enjoyment. I love the stereo imaging, sound stage, clarity. I would not get the same enjoyment from a Bluetooth single speaker
Love this video, very good perspective and insight on human nature that applies to many aspects of life. How's the saying go, "Those that seek to suppress your dreams are those that have forsaken their own"? Thank you John!
So true! I think we should talk more about “sound value”. Just because something is a big pile of money, that does not mean that it is necessarily expensive. Sometimes it is the other way around. The value HIFI brings to a person, is also proportional with how much you love music and great sound, simple as that 😉. We all have our cravings and priorities in life. 😂
What you are insinuating is that salesmen are not going to be able to help us decide on certain products.
It is very easy to inform the other about your needs and then get a tip about the best thing that would fit those parameters.
"Love, love, love
Love, love, love
Love, love, love
There's nothin' you can do that can't be done
Nothin' you can sing that can't be sung
Nothin' you can say, but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy
Nothin' you can make that can't be made
No one you can save that can't be saved
Nothin' you can do, but you can learn how to be you in time
It's easy
All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need
All you need is love
All you need is love
All you need is love, love
Love is all you need"
Much respect for turning the comments section back on!
🤗👏👏👏👍THANKS JOHN…REWATCHING LOVED IT 💚THE FIRST TIME AND EVEN MORE THE SECOND TIME…💚 especially the ending 😁💚💚💚
You are right - Audio people think they are special - bur car people and wine people think also they are special. So at the end it is a hobby and not a business. As long as you can enjoy what you have it is the right thing.
this topic needed to be discussed , thanks john darko
Technically, the point of diminishing returns occurs in a cost / benefit analysis when exponentially decreasing increments of improvement start to cost exponentially more provided that the definitions of both cost and benefit remain constant. It exists regardless of one's willingness or ability to pay more. Generally the makers of high end goods market their product by emphasizing additional benefits beyond the basic function of the product. The most familiar example is name brand vs. generic products. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you can comfortably afford it and know what you're really buying, it's your money to spend as you please. And I rely on reviews to help me figure out what I'm really getting for my money.
Great video. Especially in times when we are thrown measurements by these websites and a lot of people boosting their ego depending on measurements.
Every person is different everyone has different priorities. Respect each other choices.
Man, I've learned so much from your channel in the short month that I've been watching your videos. It's been exponentially beneficial to my learning experience. I took on a second job so I could afford to upgrade my entry level system because the knowledge You've shared has so intrigued me. I'm using your reviews and suggestions to narrow my options and make a selection for my first real system. Keep brining the vids - live your content!
I know "audiophiles" who spend a lot of time but little money. Income is a basic requirement, but attitudes may not be correlated with income.
I'd say that everybody designs their own "sweet spots" based on many factors.
And one thing I have observed in the blogosphere: getting expensive freebies de-sensitizes the reviewer's perception of value. There is the odd university students who tells you that this and the $1500 earphone cable is "instant gratification".
What I learnt in life: "instant gratification is for dummies".
The answer ? All you need is love . . . Thank you John, Paul, George & Ringo❗️
Excellent metaphor and analysis. Thank you!
We are just humans. Good too know. In psychoanalysis in general - and schools' rights - projection is part of a defense mechanism. The term projection consists of transferring and shifting inner-psychic content or an inner-psychic conflict by depicting one's own personal, affects, desires, impulses and properties, which can be related to one's own and / or social norms, to other people, groups of people, living beings or objects the outside world. The "defense" consists in that being separated by the projection, changing with oneself, the man when others are seen.
Brilliant! Love that this topic is being discussed more as of recent. The attitude and perception of people you described is what presently does and continues to keep more new people from investing and enjoying this hobby of hifi. Great message.👍
I liked a comment that has been attributed to Warren Buffet when he was apparently asked about Tesla. He said “he’d rather buy the shares than the car” or “the shares offer more value than the car” or something along those lines. Everyone including Buffet has a finite amount of money, time and interests.
We choose to spend the finite time and money we have on what interests us most. It could be travel, audio, a nicer house, a better car, children’s education etc.
Spot on, John! Thanks for turning the comments back on. We all like what we like, and that's it! If it makes you happy, and is within your means.....so be it! Even if it's slightly beyond your means.........
Perceived value is subjective. Who would have thought?
The upper echelon of any hobby is largely psychological. There is an equal, tangible, place where we can all be content and say this is all we "need", however some of us can actually afford to cross that line and delve in to the territory known as "want". "Want" may in fact be technically better, it may be measurably better, but it may not achieve any real difference in experience than what was achieved at the "need" status.
Really great video John, made me think!
This has to be one of the best clips, not only in your channel, but the Tube. It’s a life lesson or principle, doesn’t matter what you name it’s simply go live it and stop worrying about what other people think. If it matters to you that IS enough. Bravo!
This is great. Helpful audiophile advice as well as parables! 🙏
I’ve noticed hi-fi TH-camrs are usually very good photographers.
I’m proud of my photo chops and have reached my goal of my perfect audio system for me.
I believe, photo/hi-fi guys are very detail oriented.
I believe WE use our abilities to satisfy our physical senses. Seeing, hearing, smelling, touching and taste.
I bet, we all cook well.
I garden with the vigor of a lighting up a subject. Or, optimizing my electrical line signal at and after the wall socket.
I totally believe you . My whole system cost less than my Casta Speakers ,now 21,000, l paid $6000, Now have Dual 1229 turntable, Grace F-9 cartridge Ruby cantilever and a hyper elliptical diamond stylus, Aune X8 magic DAC, Vault by Blue Sound. And a Audio Lab 6000CDT. I don’t care what anyone else thinks, and all I can say is live and let us love all .Good manner are king
While I'd like to really dig into the actual mechanics behind DAC design, I personally noticed a difference when I was give the chance. And perhaps it is actually the case that the technology is such to permit regular and ever more expensive tiers of performance, even eventually splintering into colours or options. I also sense that my Audiophilia is peaked and thus contingent upon the qualities elicited by a good DAC, despite the wish for that not to be the case.
It's not about money, it's about passion and to be smart.
I don't like videos often, but this was incredibly insightful and full of wisdom. Thank you!
Problem for me is more that people on either the same or less than me spending money they haven’t got on these crazy expensive things just to keep up with who they look up to, or the things they’ve been told to buy. Which like you said about diminishing returns is great because a lot of the time there is ways and means around those little extras sometimes, with cheaper versions, that can give you similar solutions to a problem you never new you had, which you never new you needed, which only makes you feel better. Haha
So much deep thought required for selecting hifi equipment. Lots of $$$ needed too.
I only recently subscribed to your HiFi channel. And now you spend the first half of the video without even touching "audio". How great is that?! ThX. I'll stay 😎
Fantastic commentary! Love your videos.
I have a small dingy with a 2 hp outboard motor. Others with big boats and 300 plus hp lots of times seem to be mad at me. My dog and I are happy.
Well said! Must be content (and enjoy the process of learning and tinkering!)
Good talk. I'm being a bit pedantic but it's not exclusively about how much we earn but how much we have. Net worth influences our capacity to spend because it dictates how much discretion we have in our earnings.
There was a great opportunity here to open a profound issue regarding "luxury items" and branding, but it was missed. Value perception is the result of a social construct that has individuals acquiring certain kinds of products under the guise of "bringing value" to themselves. The person who buys an object that is displayed publicly, such as a Maserati, is intent on that vehicle communicating something about them. They have been acculturated to that association--they did not invent it independent of what they hope others will understand by their acquisition and public display. Similarly, a given Leica full frame camera and its accompanying lenses costs three times comparable cameras by Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, and Sony. The photographs they produce are utterly indistinguishable in the hands of an experienced photographer who is also expert at development processes in Photoshop or Capture One, etc. (something that has been proven repeatedly with blind testing). But the brand "Leica" carries with it a well honed set of cultural associations--what Bourdieu called "social capital." Other common, consumer brands do not provide an owner with the same personal sense of value. People buy into the mythology of personal value based on the marketing of a product. Consumerism is designed to make us feel "special" by what we can buy; and in most instances, what we can buy has to be seen by others in public for its effects to kick in. So when you say, "We all have personal perceptions of value," you are asserting that "perceptions of value" are truly personal an independent. I would suggest that perceptions of value are rather dependent upon a complicated social construct that results from well-structured marketing strategies designed to make people feel they will increase their personal value through specific forms of acquisition (not just electronics and cars, but in clothing, shoes, handbags, pretty much everything). I am not at all suggesting that professionals who use high end recording equipment or photographers who use medium format are making decisions based on these criteria. But your video is not addressed to the professional. Audio equipment is targeted at an acquiring public, not professionals. As for the question of diminishing returns: there are actually moderately priced products that out-perform some high-priced products, especially in circumstances where performance is highly subjective. A number of TH-cam reviewers have shown how some moderately priced microphones are indistinguishable in blind testing from microphones costing 10 times as much (cf., Booth Junkie's work). Speakers also represent that scenario. It's not only a question of diminishing returns. A person might actually find a $500 pair of speakers more pleasurable to listen to than a $5000 pair (an experience I recently had--I was shocked to experience a friend's new acquisition as both harsh and unrealistic--but he sure was proud of it!!!). I wish you would treat this theme more directly. Diminishing returns are not relevant to the person who believes an acquisition of an expensive object says something about their own self-worth. This is fundamental to all capitalist systems that need to motivate people to constantly increase their personal worth through acquisitions. This is not to say that people are not entitled to acquire fine objects that they might enjoy using. Let them enjoy! But it is to say that the myth of "value" should be exposed as just that--a myth. Interestingly enough, you, John Darko, and others (such as Steve Guttenberg) have periodically highlighted outstanding products at very moderate cost (e.g., Schiit products), where the "return" proves quite significant over other products of comparable or more money. In those discussions, there really is no question of "social capital." Those are the helpful discussions, where one has the opportunity to learn how to achieve a fine listening experience without the mythology of "high value." Thanks for listening.
Agree with other things but I am not sure with hifi its as simple as that as music is something deep within many of us, far removed from a pure status calculation. And then its very hard to test if something is better or not, but even listening causes us to listen to the music with fresh ears as it were. And we all want to feel more of the music magically reconstructing itself in front of us, even though we cannot see it. I am not sure spending money on hifi gets social kudos - it for me is a strictly personal pleasure. And i am pleased with this channel I have found a narrative that has enabled me to reconnect with it again. Certainly there are worse things than this to think about during a global pandemic!
The question isn't "all you need is...", it's more "what you want to achieve and what is your budget for it".
I have been watching your videos for awhile and always enjoy. They are thoughtful, and provide insights for consideration, in addition to objective technology analysis, as well as your enjoyable subjective evaluation. Really quality work sir. Thank you for your efforts.
Love
MANNNNN!!! I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS VIDEO!!!!! MY GOD! I'VE BEEN WORKING IN A HIFI STORE FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS AND YOU MY FRIEND HAVE JUST VALIDATED WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL ALL MY CUSTOMERS.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO!
Great!!! I used a similar argument with my graduate economics students some time ago, except the “idiot” part (🤣). You nailed it from the economics point of view perfectly well!
I loved this video. One mans ceiling is another mans floor
Expensive Car, DAC and camera= rare triple idiot...
Getting more keen on DIY projects while aging only few can replicate.
Great vid keep em coming!
I would be a lot richer if I had spent less over the last 40 years on Hi-fi, however I am now happy with my system and feel that any upgrades would be very much subject to the law of diminishing returns.
In audiophile world. We can get 2nd hand gears for a fraction of the original prices. That's why I always looking for good deals in used market. I just bought a streamer for less than half of original price. For cars, I only buy new because you never know what the previous owner had done to the car.
At the end of the day you have to be happy with your choice regardless of budget and not worry about what other people think.
Love. The answer is love.
(Also, I like the work you do)
Thank you for this excellent video. We could all use more of the care and tolerance that you're advocating for here. At the very least, you've given me a good frame for approaching disagreements like these! Love your work, hope to keep watching for a long time.
I think as a hifi reviewer, it's also a different thing because investing in an high end system and really getting to know it, is like a investment in your channel and also in your knowledge. You only can differentiate quality, if you're familiar with what really good quality is.
I absolutely love how the wall has been painted behind you. Plus your camera seems to have done really good job putting in video :)
i love your videos darko, i swear you are so unapreciated on youtube, i love the quality and sytle of your videos
I know, right! His style is great
This guy is loved and appreciated on YT for his refreshingly realistic take on HI FI .
Great analysis John. Insightful and intelligent commentary. I was once a wealthier man, so it's a bit easier for me to understand and thus avoid avoid the pitfall of considering someone an "idiot" for their purchase decisions. Good life lesson that many people in general would be well served by learning.
Enjoy watching your channel, even though the higher end equipment is not really a viable purchase option for me at my current income level. Perhaps in the future, one can hope!