I get what you are trying to say with this video but I keep going back and forth about it being “right”. I’ve always heard if you want to rank up with Moira you need to play like the rank above. I’m a diamond moria (thanks to your help haha) and a silver tank. I’ve lost plenty of “40-4” games as tank which is extremely frustrating. It’s tough to play down though since the plays are random while higher ranks have some more structure and strategy. Not sure what the right answer is
You're not playing down; you're adjusting your play style to make up for your team's weaknesses. I do the same thing on Moira. One of the defining points of this video is that going 40-4 means absolutely nothing if you aren't adapting to your team.
I'm not really convinced that playing as a team at the sacrifice of the right play is best. It seems playing as a team leads to alot of nothing going on, at least as a Tank especially Hog who is his own support you can press forward if you have a 1, 2 person advantage. As a support or dps if you are up and try to play aggressive (the right play) you risk feeding but also it can lead to encouraging your team to go forward, while if you stay and wait for your tank to lead they often take so long that the advantage you had disappears or your team unnecessarily ults especially in low rank where mercy is very prevalent and frequently can get blatant rezes off.
I would never wait for my Tank to lead if they showed they were incapable of timing their plays correctly. The points I made about how I'm playing on Tank are equally valid for the other roles. You can absolutely create space and apply pressure with the other roles, making up for a Tank's inability to do the same.
@@OWReactorCritical Well the big ones to me is king's row first choke and eichenwalde first choke, you would go through the choke then ahead of your tank? I'm interested in more videos like this keep up the great content 👍
Yes! I actually have a video of me doing exactly that on King's Row as Moira. If you go into the My Gameplay play list, there's a video of me playing in Gold on King's Row and you'll see me go through the choke first when we are attacking.
5 people doing shit play is better than 1 person doing the right thing and 4 people doing shit things, unless you are significantly better than your lobby
There was only one point in this game where I think you misread your team, which was first point defense. After you ulted, you pushed into their spawn. You called it trolling, but I think you recognized that you had numbers and saw an opportunity to stagger them as they came out of spawn. You made an aggressive play, but your team was passive, and so you fell over. If your team followed up, you'd have have survived, and had a numbers advantage in a team fight where you had also just forced out cooldowns. Possibly the right play, but with the wrong team to execute it. But - that wasn't the point you identified as the one where you should have changed your approach. The point that you identified was third point defense. Right after stuffing them back into spawn, some of your team wanted to hold close while you rotated back up to the high-ground. You expressed that, with about 1:36 left on the clock, you should have held close with your team. I disagree with you, and I think what happened from there onwards really shows the value in the play that you did make. Your Junk and Pharrah died quickly. If you held close with them, you might have just joined them. Instead, by controlling the high ground, you denied the Sombra who tried to translocate up there twice (almost assuredly to try to drop a good EMP on your team). You chased the Sombra (who later used EMP to counter Pharrah and only got her and you in it), and you caused enough damage to the Sombra to pressure out lamp. That led to effective ults from Junkrat and Illari, both of whom ulted from the relative safety of the high ground that you controlled for them. You were able to follow up on the Illari ult because you had good angles from the high ground, and you were able to easily dispose of the Reaper after they solo ulted a 1HP Illari (probably out of frustration at having no opportunity to drop that down from above). Overall, by taking and controlling that high ground, you denied the enemy team the space they wanted, created favourable circumstances for you and your team, and enabled your team to pop off. They were never really all that close to capping. If, instead, you were wiped with your team trying to hold close, then your fat hog ass would have struggled to get back to that high ground, and it could have been a very different game.
The first point defense I was trolling because I should have known my team wasn't going to follow up. Because, think about it, what was the better play there? Do the Diamond+ thing and stagger the enemy team but then die in the process because of my Gold teammates, or fall back and live since my passive team wasn't going to go with me? That's the whole point of this video - Making the "right" decisions can lead to unfavorable outcomes. I am fully confident that had I played to my team instead, the enemy team would have never captured the first point. The keyword to your next point is "if." I 100% agree with you that my holding the high ground was the "correct" choice, since "if" I died holding the low-ground corner, we'd be in a bad situation. However, since I know when to disengage and my team doesn't (hence the Junkrat getting hacked/virus and the Pharah 1v1ing a Reaper in a corridor), I am SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to die when getting engaged. So, if I stay with or ahead of my team, I control the engagement, thus preventing my teammates from putting themselves in that the situations they did. In other words, and as I say in the video, I'm saving them from themselves. It's an incredibly abstract concept and I don't think I did a great job of explaining it, but it's definitely what is holding many people back from climbing out of the metal ranks.
@@OWReactorCritical For first point, I agree that was a good example of playing to the team you have and not the one you want. I will say though, that's a really hard one to predict. It's early in the game, so you don't yet have a feel for whether your team is going to follow up, and you were presented with a very narrow window of opportunity that required a decisive play if it's to be successful. For third point, I look at the ults they had, and I can't help but think it's at least possible that you'd get caught up and killed in some kind of Flux/Death Blossom/EMP combo; or if not killed, that you might not be able to slip the pressure or push them back enough to reclaim the high ground that was so integral to winning the team fight. With the benefit of hindsight and opportunity for a do-over, would you have dropped down to hold close when you saw your Pharrah and Junk holding close at the 8:18 mark?
You're thinking in terms of playing against another Diamond team, not a Gold one, and that's what makes interpreting my decisions in this video so challenging. Holding that corner would have been better because I still have an escape route, including a mega health pack. They didn't have anything that could overwhelm me that quickly, so forcing them into that choke would be in my favor. If I were against a higher-ranked team it would be bad because they'd likely focus on me because I'm out of position. However, this is not a higher-ranked team. They don't focus and are easy to deal with if I force them into one spot. There isn't a great example of me doing this in the video, but the second-point defense is somewhat close because you can see me singlehandedly taking them down one by one. My death there was because of a positioning mistake. Had I stayed closer to cover near the mega, I most likely would have lived there and held them up for that fight.
@@OWReactorCritical For what it's worth, I have no idea what a Diamond game looks like. My frame of reference is mostly Gold and, only recently, Plat. My experience in those ranks is that players are generally okay mechanically, so you need to respect that they can hit their shots, but that they lack some game-sense/awareness, positioning, and target focus. As a player with mediocre mechanical skill, exploiting those weaknesses are where I find my value, and your VOD reviews have been very helpful to me in identifying how to do that well. I have a lot of respect for your opinion on this, and you might be right that you could have successfully held close for the duration of the game and denied some cart progress as a result. But I also think the downside risk of that play was that the enemy team caps 3rd point. Respecting that they can hit their shots, and with Flux/rock available as a CC, the potential to be hacked out of healing yourself, the burst from Reaper (with or without ult) and a potential virus or EMP, I think you may be underestimating the possibility of getting focused down and falling over before reaching the Mega (a mirror to 2nd point defense). As you expressed in the VOD, it's a trek for Hog to get back to the high ground, so if you were killed, you might never be able to reclaim it, and without you there, the Illari and Junk might not follow (or be able to stay there) and might have less effective ults; and the enemy could have claimed that high ground to their advantage -- we know Sombra wanted it and Bap wasn't allergic. It's impossible to know for certain, but from my vantage, holding that high ground created a significant tactical advantage that swung the fight and secured a third point hold for your team, which made it very winnable without overtime. I think sacrificing some cart progress (and the lives of your out-of-position DPS) was a worthy exchange to secure the position and the hold.
I like these! Keep it up dude. Also dive more into strategy stuff, I know I’d like it!
Good tips, sometimes its difficult to sync with your team as tank since they are behind you. Laughed at 23:51
I get what you are trying to say with this video but I keep going back and forth about it being “right”. I’ve always heard if you want to rank up with Moira you need to play like the rank above. I’m a diamond moria (thanks to your help haha) and a silver tank. I’ve lost plenty of “40-4” games as tank which is extremely frustrating. It’s tough to play down though since the plays are random while higher ranks have some more structure and strategy. Not sure what the right answer is
You're not playing down; you're adjusting your play style to make up for your team's weaknesses. I do the same thing on Moira. One of the defining points of this video is that going 40-4 means absolutely nothing if you aren't adapting to your team.
I'm not really convinced that playing as a team at the sacrifice of the right play is best. It seems playing as a team leads to alot of nothing going on, at least as a Tank especially Hog who is his own support you can press forward if you have a 1, 2 person advantage. As a support or dps if you are up and try to play aggressive (the right play) you risk feeding but also it can lead to encouraging your team to go forward, while if you stay and wait for your tank to lead they often take so long that the advantage you had disappears or your team unnecessarily ults especially in low rank where mercy is very prevalent and frequently can get blatant rezes off.
I would never wait for my Tank to lead if they showed they were incapable of timing their plays correctly. The points I made about how I'm playing on Tank are equally valid for the other roles. You can absolutely create space and apply pressure with the other roles, making up for a Tank's inability to do the same.
@@OWReactorCritical Well the big ones to me is king's row first choke and eichenwalde first choke, you would go through the choke then ahead of your tank? I'm interested in more videos like this keep up the great content 👍
Yes! I actually have a video of me doing exactly that on King's Row as Moira. If you go into the My Gameplay play list, there's a video of me playing in Gold on King's Row and you'll see me go through the choke first when we are attacking.
5 people doing shit play is better than 1 person doing the right thing and 4 people doing shit things, unless you are significantly better than your lobby
There was only one point in this game where I think you misread your team, which was first point defense. After you ulted, you pushed into their spawn. You called it trolling, but I think you recognized that you had numbers and saw an opportunity to stagger them as they came out of spawn. You made an aggressive play, but your team was passive, and so you fell over. If your team followed up, you'd have have survived, and had a numbers advantage in a team fight where you had also just forced out cooldowns. Possibly the right play, but with the wrong team to execute it.
But - that wasn't the point you identified as the one where you should have changed your approach. The point that you identified was third point defense. Right after stuffing them back into spawn, some of your team wanted to hold close while you rotated back up to the high-ground. You expressed that, with about 1:36 left on the clock, you should have held close with your team.
I disagree with you, and I think what happened from there onwards really shows the value in the play that you did make.
Your Junk and Pharrah died quickly. If you held close with them, you might have just joined them.
Instead, by controlling the high ground, you denied the Sombra who tried to translocate up there twice (almost assuredly to try to drop a good EMP on your team). You chased the Sombra (who later used EMP to counter Pharrah and only got her and you in it), and you caused enough damage to the Sombra to pressure out lamp. That led to effective ults from Junkrat and Illari, both of whom ulted from the relative safety of the high ground that you controlled for them. You were able to follow up on the Illari ult because you had good angles from the high ground, and you were able to easily dispose of the Reaper after they solo ulted a 1HP Illari (probably out of frustration at having no opportunity to drop that down from above).
Overall, by taking and controlling that high ground, you denied the enemy team the space they wanted, created favourable circumstances for you and your team, and enabled your team to pop off. They were never really all that close to capping.
If, instead, you were wiped with your team trying to hold close, then your fat hog ass would have struggled to get back to that high ground, and it could have been a very different game.
The first point defense I was trolling because I should have known my team wasn't going to follow up. Because, think about it, what was the better play there? Do the Diamond+ thing and stagger the enemy team but then die in the process because of my Gold teammates, or fall back and live since my passive team wasn't going to go with me? That's the whole point of this video - Making the "right" decisions can lead to unfavorable outcomes. I am fully confident that had I played to my team instead, the enemy team would have never captured the first point.
The keyword to your next point is "if." I 100% agree with you that my holding the high ground was the "correct" choice, since "if" I died holding the low-ground corner, we'd be in a bad situation. However, since I know when to disengage and my team doesn't (hence the Junkrat getting hacked/virus and the Pharah 1v1ing a Reaper in a corridor), I am SIGNIFICANTLY less likely to die when getting engaged. So, if I stay with or ahead of my team, I control the engagement, thus preventing my teammates from putting themselves in that the situations they did. In other words, and as I say in the video, I'm saving them from themselves. It's an incredibly abstract concept and I don't think I did a great job of explaining it, but it's definitely what is holding many people back from climbing out of the metal ranks.
@@OWReactorCritical
For first point, I agree that was a good example of playing to the team you have and not the one you want. I will say though, that's a really hard one to predict. It's early in the game, so you don't yet have a feel for whether your team is going to follow up, and you were presented with a very narrow window of opportunity that required a decisive play if it's to be successful.
For third point, I look at the ults they had, and I can't help but think it's at least possible that you'd get caught up and killed in some kind of Flux/Death Blossom/EMP combo; or if not killed, that you might not be able to slip the pressure or push them back enough to reclaim the high ground that was so integral to winning the team fight. With the benefit of hindsight and opportunity for a do-over, would you have dropped down to hold close when you saw your Pharrah and Junk holding close at the 8:18 mark?
You're thinking in terms of playing against another Diamond team, not a Gold one, and that's what makes interpreting my decisions in this video so challenging. Holding that corner would have been better because I still have an escape route, including a mega health pack. They didn't have anything that could overwhelm me that quickly, so forcing them into that choke would be in my favor. If I were against a higher-ranked team it would be bad because they'd likely focus on me because I'm out of position. However, this is not a higher-ranked team. They don't focus and are easy to deal with if I force them into one spot. There isn't a great example of me doing this in the video, but the second-point defense is somewhat close because you can see me singlehandedly taking them down one by one. My death there was because of a positioning mistake. Had I stayed closer to cover near the mega, I most likely would have lived there and held them up for that fight.
@@OWReactorCritical For what it's worth, I have no idea what a Diamond game looks like. My frame of reference is mostly Gold and, only recently, Plat. My experience in those ranks is that players are generally okay mechanically, so you need to respect that they can hit their shots, but that they lack some game-sense/awareness, positioning, and target focus. As a player with mediocre mechanical skill, exploiting those weaknesses are where I find my value, and your VOD reviews have been very helpful to me in identifying how to do that well.
I have a lot of respect for your opinion on this, and you might be right that you could have successfully held close for the duration of the game and denied some cart progress as a result. But I also think the downside risk of that play was that the enemy team caps 3rd point.
Respecting that they can hit their shots, and with Flux/rock available as a CC, the potential to be hacked out of healing yourself, the burst from Reaper (with or without ult) and a potential virus or EMP, I think you may be underestimating the possibility of getting focused down and falling over before reaching the Mega (a mirror to 2nd point defense). As you expressed in the VOD, it's a trek for Hog to get back to the high ground, so if you were killed, you might never be able to reclaim it, and without you there, the Illari and Junk might not follow (or be able to stay there) and might have less effective ults; and the enemy could have claimed that high ground to their advantage -- we know Sombra wanted it and Bap wasn't allergic.
It's impossible to know for certain, but from my vantage, holding that high ground created a significant tactical advantage that swung the fight and secured a third point hold for your team, which made it very winnable without overtime. I think sacrificing some cart progress (and the lives of your out-of-position DPS) was a worthy exchange to secure the position and the hold.