The CHARISMA CARPENTER Side Effects of JAMES MARSTERS Taking a Role in Angel
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- BTS stories of the ramifications of James Marsters being asked to come on Angel after Buffy...
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Making a return this week, James Marsters (Buffy, Angel) joins us for a discussion on the darker side of his method acting of the fan beloved character Spike, and exactly how it affected his relationships with others on set. James opens up more this time on the hostile working conditions on the set of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and what it was like to work with creator Joss Whedon. We talk about secret crushes on set, playing dark characters, and the possibility of a Buffy reunion.
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The CHARISMA CARPENTER Side Effects of JAMES MARSTERS Taking a Role in Angel #insideofyou #buffy
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Spike and Cordelia together for a whole season was such a missed opportunity.
Angel and Cordelia never truly getting their moments was an even bigger missed opportunity. They built that relationship up for almost the entire series. They had so much great chemistry too.
I agree they ruined Cordelias character in season 4, she was a well beloved character and the fans were angry about that, they could have managed Charismas pregnancy better than they did, she is not the first actrees getting pregnant in the middle of a series run. I liked season 5 but it would be better with Cordelia on it
Spike is a great character. One of the best antiheroes I've watched. Loved the Spike/Buffy relationship which, imo...was better than Angel/Buffy. James' ethic on acting overall is very cool as well.
I too preferred Spike/Buffy and Angel/Cordy as couples
I just love Buffy's conversation with a returning Giles. And they both break out in gaffaws.
@@bonnielee78 Angel and cordillia? No! Lol just no..
@@bonnielee78 Yes to Spike/Buffy, no to Angel/Cordy.
The Spike/Angel relationship is the best relationship, though.
It's why those with money don't want those they have to pay to know who is getting what. If Charisma and James had been talking and had gone in together, either they would have both been offered half what they got on Buffy, or the show would have been deemed too expensive and it would have remained canceled. They're not gonna pay the on screen talent what its worth. They need to profit. This isn't fair. It's business. Most industries have the same problem. You don't pay your employees well AND you boast to the shareholders how much money they're making. It sucks. That's business. If there was a better way to do it, we'd be dong it.
I don't know that Charisma would have done in season 5. I don't see her going along with the Worfram and Heart change. Maybe she would have refused then teamed up with Spike in wacky duo. Spike wasn't down with W+H at first either or mostly ever really.
Always thought the working for W+H storyline was stupid, but some good characters and writing still made some good episodes in the last season. Spike did save it.
Well, Angel improved with Spike being there, but I think Charisma got horrible treatment with the whole pregnancy storyline. I will say also that I think the whole taking over Wolfram and Hart was a mistake. Angel should have stayed in the hotel.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Angel started to suffer when they started screwing with Cordelia's arc too much...the memory loss, getting possessed, sleeping with Connor, etc etc. She became such a badass in the early seasons and I actually think Cordelia and Spike could have carried Angel to 7 seasons. Spike certainly contributed to Buffy's run, and he was right to not take a pay cut to save Angel. It's on Joss for what happened with Charisma.
I think Charismas pregnacy has alot to do with that, with the 4th season needing an almost entire rewrite, if you listen to her complaints about Whedon alot seems to come down to him resenting being put in that position where his vision for the show is compromised, the same as when the studio forced him to keep Spike in S2 of Buffy
S4 of Angel was pretty dire. But it was the only season I didn't like too much. S5 came back strong.
I'm pretty sure there's not a single person blaming James Marsters for Charisma being fired from Angel. Everybody knows Joss was mad at Charisma for getting pregnant.
@@craigburkey269 I'm not sure how her pregnancy would have changed that much of a storyline because all other actresses have gotten pregnant on a TV show and it didn't make for a bad thing. They didn't treat their actresses with such disdain as Joss whedon did for Charisma Carpenter
It's not like charisma Carpenter was doing her own sons anyway so that's a fallacy
@@jimdigitalvideo Joss Whedon is a creep. That's all. Hollywood is filled with a lot of creeps and sexual perverts/predators. People should know that by now I have no respect for Joss whedon at all
James is just an amazing wealth of production insight! He is actually sympathetic to the entire show-making process to the point that it pains him in hindsight. What a sincere and empathetic human being he happens to be!
I would've loved to have seen more interaction between Cordy and Spike. They would've been hilarious getting on each others nerves.
They bring spike to bring a comic relief in the show with Cordy being gone
Ew no. Cody was boring as hell.
@@WhyTH-camWhy Who the hell is "Cody"?
@@maximusprime3459 Don't be a 'typo' nitpicker.
Yeah, I mean we got some of it in "You're Welcome" but since Cordy was there when Spike was introduced, it would have been interesting to see more interaction between them. She remembers the party-boy sociopath vampire and to get to know him with a soul would have been nice.
James and Charisma going on Supernatural as a couple was epic .
glad she seems like not an asshole about it at least. how many actresses would act like he was the villain and did that to her personally like he wasnt just trying to get his payday.
@@dillonoickle5841 I don't know seems like a weird hypothetical of a very specific kind of situation. Like you really don't have to wonder how many other women are possibly upset over something like this. Seems very weird.
@@RamblyBear man I don't have to but i did Weird huh. Wasn't even trying to shittalk women over men just always nice to hear when anyone isent a dick as its very often not the case with stuff and actors you like. And its not weird out of nowhere its literally what they talk about in this clip.
😑 THAT episode. They were murderers but Sam & Dean just let it go. Not easily but still.
@@SimonKnight1023 well he let sam and dean go . She was gonna kill them but he saved them
No. It wasn’t you. Joss Whedon wanted to punish Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant. It’s on him. You can tell by what they did to her story line. It was personal.
Looking at how Warren & Caleb hated women on the show it's not to surprising how he treated CC
I had heard that as well and talked to someone who was part of the show and it was exactly that. It had nothing to do with Spike joining the cast.
@@riverviewrescue1371 - Who is Warren and Caleb?
@@HoldenNY22 it's been a long time since i watched Angel i do have seasons 1 and 2 but that's it. i didn't know any of this either i wonder if that's also why season five is pretty weak i know it pissed me off when they killed her for really no reason
@@riverviewrescue1371 you... do know these guys were villains, right? The show condemns both their worldviews verrry strongly. A far better example would be the almost rape from Seeing Red (which from what I understand came about more due to cognitive dissonance than overt misogyny, though that's not much of an excuse really)
That show jacked around the Cordelia character so hard that they probably did Charisma a favor by not bringing her back full time for season 5. She had her one episode where she got to say good bye, but yeah, she deserved better than how the Angel show treated her in season 4.
She certainly did deserve better. Joss Whedon messed her about and didn’t bring her back because she got pregnant.
It ruined season 4
@@kdizzle901 Her getting pregnant ruined season 4
@@WhyTH-camWhy that and her sleeping with Connor
@@kdizzle901 honestly the fact that she never came back was what ruined it. And Jasmine.
It's weird hearing James Masters speak in his own American accent because I'm used to him speaking with his Spike accent (Which apparently is how Anthony Stewart Head speaks in real life).
The Dresden Files audiobooks are read by James in his natural speaking voice. If you're a fan of Marsters you'll LOVE those audiobooks!!!
@@silbertmcg I was just going to type that... that his Dresden reading is so darn good.
The fact that adding Spike was the reason there was an extra season and they offered him less than what he got on Buffy. Mindblowing. But we all know James wasn't the reason Charisma wasn't in season 5.
The fact that joss went up to him and told him “you’re dead” and “you’re ruining my show” this must have felt great for James 😂him coming onto Angel last season made it my favorite season the of the entire show
Firstly, there wouldn't have even been a fifth season of Angel without James. He said so himself. He saved the livelihoods of DOZENS of people. It's just a measure of how decent he is that he feels guilty.
Charisma was also the lowest paid actress on prime time tv at the time, for at least the majority of the series. That's the kind of business she had to put up with among other things. But if her salary remained the same, James getting hired on shouldn't have been of been a factor of her not getting to be on season 5.
@Vampirella Creepy 💯 Facts here
@@Christian_Ada1 Not facts. Speculation and perhaps correct speculation but not facts.
@@claytoncourtney1309 It's Facts. Every actor complained about Joss..So are they all liars now? The guy is sn anti feminist. Charisma Carpenter talked about him for years. He's a vindicate POS.
Joss', wife admitted as such. So yeah 💯 FACT'S.
Everyone has this odd obsession with James Marsters like he saved Angel. The ratings continued to drop hence no season 6
@@Christian_Ada1 No speculation. Actors complained about Joss, true but that does not prove that Charisma was fired for getting pregnant
Joss could very well be be an anti-feminist but that does not prove that Joss fired Charisma for being pregnant.
The fact that Charisma complained about Joss does not prove that she was fired for being pregnant.
Joss's ex-wife saying anything is not proof that Joss fired Charisma for being pregnant.
Like I said it is speculation because of all of these things but is not a fact that she got fired for being pregnant. Can I see it happening, of course I can, and would lean towards that conclusion BUT IT IS NOT A FACT.
@@claytoncourtney1309 oh it proves just that and so much more. Which is why
Joss whedon got fired from Hollywood. He's no longer working for them. He got blacklisted 🤣😆😂
But yeah keep dreaming the dream there buddy
"You're a wee little puppet man.' Oh they were so good together lol.
I mean the direction they took Charisma's character was weird AF. Buffy & Angel started so strong but the plots and characters really devolved into some Jerry Springer level disfunction in the last few seasons.
Lol yea
Correct for Buffy, dead wrong for Angel which ended on its best season. Hell I even loved season 4, as uneven as it was.
@@Onigirli you're the second person to say that so I am going to have to go back and give it another chance!
@@KnightsoftheApex Season 5 is indeed fantastic
seasons 5, 6 and 7 of buffy were total trash and borderline degrading
Stumbled across this channel but I'm really loving the interview. Great combination of an insightful host and James Marsters being refreshingly frank, humble and pragmatic about the whole process.
It was great seeing Marsters jump into Angel Season 5, the comedic tension between him and Boreanaz was fantastic. My wife and I were huge fans of Buffy and Angel but season 4 of Angel was a trainwreck. Fortunately, the way season 5 ended was some incredible tv and probably one of the most memorable endings of any show.
''She has a kid.'' The silence was deafening..
"Who cares" was my first thought. This is acting. None of their jobs is going to last forever.
@@Nepthu James has a son doesn't he? He also needed to make a living.
You don’t need to care, he was clearly talking about the manifestation of his own guilt which any sane person would understand & feel.
@@taraz6786 you know, when this all sounds like she has to fight for every penny because of the future of her child, I think every 'sane' person also understands that it's harder to care when we're actually talking about millionaires! She earned 4.5 mio$ alone from Angel and around 2 mio$ from Buffy! 'She has a kid' is a bit dramatic under that circumstances, it's not like her family has to live from food stamps from now on. It's normal he feels guilt over maybe costing a colleague or even a friend some salary, but 'she has a kid', come on!
@@autumnnite1803 And, I believe, he also took custody of his niece shortly before Buffy ended.
If it wasn't for James Marsters, there would not have even been a Season 5 of Angel.
Exactly
Wouldn't have even been an angel period!
@@634983 uh idk about that.
Yep. The head of The WB even said as much.
@@mikesannitti6042 story lines would have been pretty boring. He definitely took the show to another level
Nah. With respect to James, producers creating a false sense of scarcity is a tactic to make workers blame themselves and each other for lack of pay/work. One of those overpaid TV producers could take a pay cut, couldn't they? But instead they collect way more than the people doing the work to sit in pointless meetings before hitting the links. There's a reason another union strike is always looming (there's one right now, in fact) and this is it.
yep
It’s pretty crazy to think that both Spike and Cordelia were main cast members in both Buffy and Angel yet they’ve barely interacted in either show. I can’t even think of any scenes where they were having a conversation together.
Angel 1x03 in the Dark. She threatens him with a crossbow.
Oh yeah that's when he guest starred on Angel back in season 1 I remember the episode
Yeah. That's why I thought it was weird that Cordy and Spike knew each other when Spike appeared early on the first season of Angel. Spike didn't interact with the scooby gang before getting the chip. We have to assume they met sometimes off-screen...
No worries, James. Charisma was on Joss's sh*t list because of her pregnancy. She was doomed on that show no matter who or what else happened.
@xenaguy01 Yeah, I have to think that Joss was looking for a reason to get rid of her anyway, so this was very convenient for him. Says a lot about Marsters' character that he felt personally guilty for what happened even though it wasn't within his control.
Spike should have had his own show.
Not having Charisma killed the show for me.
Honestly though it wasn't James holding out for his pay that caused them to cut her, it was entirely their decision. There wouldn't have been another season without James joining and he had every right to ask for what he is worth, every producer will use the excuse about a lack of money to try and get someone for less but there are always ways to keep people in the show if they wanted to - have them in less episodes, Whedon could have taken less as a producer to cover her costs, etc. Whedon looked at it and decided she wasn't needed or important, and her pregnancy probably played a big role in that, and that was it but James isn't at fault for that.
I thought she was out because of personality and pregnancy/ health issues, but very good points.
I heard that Charisma was getting a prima donna attitude and she wasn't honest about being pregnant until it was obvious that she was pregnant. She also said several times after Angel ended that she would like to work with Whedon again.
Funny how all of them were praising Whedon when it could help their careers. Then years later they turned around and stabbed Whedon in the back hoping the court of public opinion would jump start their now dead careers. Those few that choose to keep that garbage out of the headlines showed true strength of character. And to those who #blievewomen over evidence remember they are actors, they are paid to lie to you convincingly.
@@lordhawkeyeIn Hollywood if you lose your thunder you will pay, Justice League was the last straw for Whedon!!
@@lordhawkeye That's the game that has always been played in Hollywood.
Angel should not have been cancelled.
on the other hand if James had refused the offer outright Charisma would never have had that pay check anyway
While I don’t believe James Marsters joining the cast had anything to do with Charisma Carpenter being let go, I really just don’t know. Joss Whedon was apparently really rude to Charisma at times, so my thinking is that if something happened and they needed to “trim the fat” so to speak (genuinely not making a fat joke here, even though Joss apparently called Charisma fat when she was pregnant) for whatever reason, then I imagine Charisma would be the first to go since Joss didn’t seem to respect her, which supports the possibility that James joining the cast is why she was cut.
But, I still don’t think that’s why she was let go. Angel was always a weird show, from the very first season when they killed off Doyle (I really liked the character) to the last season when they ended the show on a cliffhanger massive battle that they never intended to show. The show had so many weird twists and turns that I honestly don’t think James requesting more money is why Charisma was let go. I think she was let go because Joss wanted her gone for whatever reason. Otherwise, I’d imagine he would have been more respectful to the Cordelia Chase character. Her last season was really rough…
Pretty much. Joss seemed really annoyed when she got pregnant and I imagine the ensuing tension throughout S4 was enough for him to just drop her entirely. It made sense storywise anyway.
Well the actor who played Doyle was ill and he passed away not long after
@@HealthyObbsession His death had nothing to do with why he left the show though. It was always the plan to kill Doyle off early-on, because Joss thought the character didn’t mesh well and made the show difficult to write even though he was a popular character.
Besides, Glenn Quinn (the actor that played him) died from a heroin overdose, not because he was physically ill.
but on the flip side, watching Spike call Angel a magnificent poof was priceless.
Charisma’s role wasn’t played out on Angel. When it was found out that she was pregnant, they could have have cut her out of half the season and brought her back for the full 5th season WITHOUT destroying her entire character. I don’t think hiring James was related to the firing of Charisma because fans wouldn’t have wanted to replace an original cast member for anyone else.
What they did to Cordelia is the worst thing that happened on any show ever! They would have been better off just killing her dead towards the start of season 4. And screw Skip!
Charisma Carpenter being forced out of the show can be clearly blamed on Joss Whedon being an abusive, controlling arsehole. Apparently when she got pregnant as the pregnancy advanced Whedon would make cracks about her being fat and apparently continued after she'd given birth.
@@nah....6151 That was definitely all Joss' doing. He's a creep
Literally… she ends season 3 leaving the earthly plane so they could have just brought her back after maternity leave. But no Whedon assassinated her character, put her in a coma, and then killed her off.
@@sheltondaal6425 True it was unnecessary.
I think Joss even had a way out if it since he could have had Charisma return permanently in season 5 when Cordelia woke up.
She could have stayed on as a direct line to "the powers that be" now closer to them than ever before.
Cordelia could have been the easiest way of introducing them as characters on the show.
So saying they didn't know we're to go with her anymore was kind of ridiculous lol
Especially when you think of how Cordelia grows more into who Buffy was in season 1.
They could have done a lot with her.
James coming aboard at best is an excuse that Joss could use to fire Charisma.
Wow I got to say at least he’s honest about it and it obviously really bothered him but joss could have found away to keep her I think he screwed her any way he could her character and all
@@Ben-pd2bx easy! I wouldn't waste the budget on cgi and instead use real vampires!
@couldn't think of a username I agree she was one of the better ones
@@Ben-pd2bx what would I do? Cut pretty much any of the other characters before her. I mean Fred? Really? Nice enough and all that but come on, no comparison and then they butchered her character anyway.
@@Ben-pd2bx I agree, he def played favourites and I adore Amy Ackers. I just think the role of Fred had played out and could have been finished before Cordelia. It’s sad the way he played favourites and behaved in this way. I guess some people don’t cope well with power. You can see why SMG was ready to leave Buffy when she was. I mean yes long hours and being the star etc (the reasons previously stated) but it sounds like the work environment wasn’t always the most positive. She probably felt very ready to finish by then.
@@kczleon735 vampire have unions
James is probably one of my favorite actors. I constantly listen to the Harry Dresden audio books. And he presents himself so honestly. Alot of people would not be humble enough to tell the story he just did here about where some of the money to pay him for Angel may have come from.
As far as I'm concerned, James IS Harry, and moonlights as Spike 😌 great dude.
I had always assumed joss ended up hating Charasima due to the complete character butchering in her last season. Everything about it just seemed so wrong for cordelia and so gross. Its like he wanted her to be hated and despised. we always wondered, jeez he must really hate her to do this. And as time has passed and things came out it all made sense.
well i think he was mad she was pregnant because Charisma was suppose to be the look-at-me girl on the show sexy Cordellia but suddenly she wasn't that attraction and i think he didn't like that.
@@eolsunder I think It was more because she apparently hid her pregnancy during a break an didn't tell anyone till they started shooting again, which caused them to have to rewrite large portions of the story.
Spike should have had his own show very deep things in his character to explore . Big fan of James and hope he finds another popular series on Hulu or Netflix . Not as Spike but that would be great but that boat has sailed . Marsters and Boreanaz had great Chemistry on Buffy and Angel . Put him on Seal Team or insert him into an established show and let him shine . Good Luck James (SPIKE) Marsters from a Fan ...
That might've been more of a mini series.
Spike wasn't an interesting character to be honest. Riding on the coattails of Angel
i'd love to see James take Harry Dresden to the TV, he is awesome on the audio-books and i think a 2nd shot at a Dresden Files tv show using modern effects would be great :D
@@Christian_Ada1 you gotta be trolling with that comment, spike is a top 5 character in the entire Buffy verse..
There was never a spike show but there was a serious consideration for a spike movie.
Well Joss Whedon was a complete a*hole to Charisma and he completely disparaged Cordy as character in S4 because Charisma was pregnant and he was owing a petty shit to her for that.
But the fact that somehow it trickles down to the actors lie it had to do with money too is even worse.
As far as James being responsible for Charisma being cut, in his own words, the show was being axed until they got him on board.
So Charisma was out either way.
So he didn't lose Charisma the job, he saved everyone else's
Solid point
Yeah it was probably the whole pregnancy drama and tension with Joss that led to her being dropped.
That's what Whedon said, they it was being axed, but maybe it was being axed because Charisma was out. I doubt Joss was telling him the truth about it.
@@venaev I'm not sure who you responding to but that's not a solid point Joss whedon is a complete disgusting human being an anti-feminist.
Everybody talked bad about him, Sarah Michelle gellar, Charisma Carpenter, even the little girl who played Dawn on Buffy Michelle Trachtenberg. Hewasn't allowed anywhere near her by himself.
He's disgusting human being and anyone who sticks up for him is a total fool
@@Caprizonica Great point
The very first time years ago when I heard that charisma Carpenter was no longer going to be on the show and the reasoning was that there was no more story to tell if Cordelia I never felt it rang true because adding Fred to the show added nothing at all she wasn't interesting. The actress was okay but to me Cordelia and Angel was the show. And of course the actor who played Wesley. Gone Lauren Fred we're definitely actors that could have just dropped to keep Cordelia
It seems to me like people are not using their critical thinking. They're giving James marsters way too much credit like he was some kind of Savior to both Buffy and Angel as a show.
When Joss fired Charisma Carpenter the Execs were probably like "well there is no show. The actress not being there will add a huge hole to the show. (Which it did) So let's just cancel the Series"
Joss "Wait what if we bring in Spike to Angel?"
Execs "Well if you can do that then yea you'll get a Season 5"
You have to listen to James Marsters when he's speaking it seems like the beginning of Season 4 of Angel (beginning of season 7 of Buffy) the execs knew that Charisma Carpenter was going to get fired which is why they weren't planning on renewing it until Joss came up with the idea of getting James Marsters.
Now the character Spike added nothing to the show (two Vampires with a Soul? Yeah not clever) because the ratings continuously kept dropping which is why we did not get a season 6. All you have to do is use your brains a little bit.
You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions here. There is no way the execs cared one way or the other if Charisma Carpenter was on the show. That is just not how networks behave. They only cared about ratings and it just so happened that the story that ruined her character and led to her departure was turning off all but the diehard audience. When it came to James Marsters, I guarantee they could not have cared less about him. It was the bankability of the character that delayed the cancelation axe. All Joss had to do was point out the online buzz about the character and the Spike related merch in online stores and the Networks was probably keen. It was also a way for WB to get back a popular character they had lost when Buffy switched networks to UPN for its final few seasons.
I'm still mad that Angel was canceled and that Charisma was written off. Would have been great if the show continued for another 5 seasons.
Yeah, it was stupid the way that just cancelled it. They could have done more with the show.
While Charisma shouldn't have been fired the way she was, and Joss was an ass to her. To be honest the way they destroyed Angel in season 5 would not work if Cordelia was still there. Thats why in the 4th season when Welsey was thinking of taking baby Connor away from Angel, had Cordy be there she would have talked him out of it. They had her off the show for a few eps to go hang out with Grout. Cordelia would not have let Angel take over W&H at all. They should have had her go back to Buffy for season 7.
Bro, Cordy and older Conor birth out a demon. They basically got rid of Cordy after she gives birth on the show
When Spike got his soul back, I knew they'd have to address how that would affect the Shanshu Prophecy, so it didn't surprise me that he ended up on "Angel."
"The WB didn't have any money at the time. So much of their budget went into bald caps for Smallville"
It’s blowing my mind that James Marsters will be 61 this year.
It's kinda where you'd want both Charisma and James (and maybe others) to know the budget limitations, so they can decide if they are willing to take a cut to keep their friends on.
Charisma was already one of the lowest-paid and she had been on the show from the start
@@HealthyObbsession Considering that Charisma Carpenter's net worth is about double that of J. August Richards, Amy Acker & Alexis Denisoff, and Acker has had quite a TV career, I'd say that Charisma wasn't the lowest paid.
@@kingrex1931 Charisma went on to be Lee Christmas' Gf, Lacy, in the blockbuster first 2 highly successful Expendables movies, that saw wide Global theatrical releases, and subsequent big physical media sales. That's the point where Her net worth went up. Nothing to do with 'Angel'.
@@Cyborganna She wasn't the lowest paid on the show though. She somehow got the idea in her head that she was the lead character and the other characters outside of David were below her. That is here she came up with being the "lowest paid actress" in TV, but she wasn't the lead, David was. Charisma and everyone else were supporting characters.
I agree, and I’m wondering would the actors union not help somewhat with that?
Joss Whedon needs to be investigated. That scene where Spike tried to rape Buffy is one of the worst out of the blue scenes I've ever seen. Destroyed Spike's character. Spike would never hurt Buffy. And what he did to Cordy just because she was pregnant is ridiculous. He destroyed her character as well having her sleep with Angel's son which led to nowhere.
spike was a soules monster the raped and kill for a 100 years. yea he would have hurt buffy
Its well known by now that Whedon is a garbage person. However, that season 6 attempted rape scene was not from him. Whedon stepped back as the day-to-day showrunner that year and Marti Noxon was promoted to the position. The idea for that scene itself also came from a woman on the writing staff, based on a personal experience of her own.
that is actually true. That was his toughest scene. It sent him to therapy.
but spike was a mass murder and rapeist but people like spike never do that yes he would that was the whole point.
@@az21bob666 Angel was a muderer. Whats your point ? Its called an arc and they ruined it.
I love hearing that James Marsters held out for equal pay from his time on Buffy and it sucks that Whedon et al might have used that as an "excuse" to let go of Charisma Carpenter.
Spike should've gotten his own show. 🤦🏻♂️
I doubt James would have wanted to hang around such a volatile showrunner for a whole other series.
James had nothing to do with Charisma not coming back. She didnt get asked to return bc the relationship with joss was already breaking down and he wasnt going to invite any female back that wanst going to bow to him as he'd like
It’s interesting how crazy those last 2 years of Angel seem to be behind the scenes I can see why no one was in a good mood and on their best behaviour.
I really doubt James played a role in Charisma not coming back
@@Ben-pd2bx Whedon wrote Charisma out because she got pregnant and it pissed him off
@@okmega22 You don't know that. There is a reason they left everything concerning Cordy in limbo going in to the end of the season. Also, the plan was always to make Cordelia the big bad in S4 and have angel kill her. He might have been upset with her pregnancy, but the rest in speculation.
Mmm poor James and Charisma both... I recall Charisma saying something about struggling during this portion anyways. My take was that they seemed already pressed to maybe get her out of the show by s5 and I'm not sure JM SHOULD feel at all badly. He asked for his worth, I don't believe they needed to cut Cordelia (who was much beloved) from the show. :|
I really appreciate James’ honesty here. Would love to see him back on Doctor Who properly, as I think he did stuff for Torchwood.
Oh god he was so great on Torchwood!
Wild...he’s not British
I respect Mr. Marsters for taking responsibility in his life, but he's got none to take here. Whedon clearly had a personal grudge against Ms. Carpenter for not getting the abortion he pushed her to get.
The way he told the story made me cry 😢
🤣
Cutting Charisma's character doomed the show.
I kept waiting for her character to return, only to be disappointed by the cliffhanger at the end.
Yeah. I didnt like how they weakly tried to inchworm Fred into her place. Charisma/Cordy was irreplaceable.
Yeah, Charisma/Cordelia for me was amazing. David/Angel's main offset (and complement), to land and keep in place the core feel and drive of the show. Being integral to Angel as "the show" and its feel you returned to and for. I think those two set the tone, with Alexis/Wesley rounding that off and also as her counterpoint in the direction to push.
Charisma/Cordelia added great personality, main chemistry, a welcoming access point for the viewer, and a great way to insert the direction to take an event in the episode/series (which I think she and Alexis/Wesley were both huge for).
James/Spike was also amazing, a powerhouse, but his addition felt more like a new show, "The Adventures of Angel and Spike". Not a new chapter or book, but a different spin-off show altogether. An odd couple buddy duo. I don't think it had to be that way, because James and his Spike character are so versatile that he could have played any number of offset points to the show. But that's what role they inserted him as: the whirlwind.
And maybe that's what they were going for. Cutting Charisma/Cordelia and Alexis/Wesley took out the grounding framework of the show, and setup the David/Angel and James/Spike to shift into a whole new experience. For that, they probably should have just had them cut the pre-existing cast and setting ties, and thrust them into a whole new arena (setting, world, events, big main storyline, etc.) with driving momentum and discovery of the new tone and centerpoint. Maybe something like Supernatural but with the more energy, momentum, and power that James/Spike brought and was pushing David/Angel back into.
@@maximusprime3459 While I love Fred, around Season 4 they started making her the "glue" of the group even though two seconds ago she was an unstable girl still getting her bearings on life after Pylea. It just frustrated me because both girls could have had significant roles in those last two seasons.
No it didn't. I liked Charisma Carpenter but there was an expiration date with what they could do with Cordelia Chase. I hate how they handled her character, but after season 3 I was glad to leave her behind and also grateful she got a proper send off in season 5. Frankly though, season 5 was my favorite season. As much as I enjoyed the Cordelia character in my favorite episodes, I really did not care for most of the Cordelia centric episodes or the character's main subplots. Pylea? Nope. Groosalugg? Nope. Romance with Angel? Nope. Ascending to a higher plane? Nope. Sleeping with Connor and then giving birth to Jasmine? Hell no!
I think it is terrible that she was fired for getting pregnant but I think it is also not great that she initially lied about being pregnant. Season 4 was not meant to be her story and yes, Joss Whedon clearly retaliated. The season 4 we got was altered to accommodate the pregnancy and to unfairly punish Charisma for forcing them to rework the season.
Lots of actresses on TV get pregnant, and sometimes there are workarounds. In this case though, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, Charisma was unmistakably pregnant. Her face alone gave it away. Having her sit down or hide behind props or set dressing was not fooling anyone. That meant they had to write the pregnancy into the show and the best way to do that, in theory if not in practice, was to utilize it by tying it to the plot.
Sorry but Charisma and Cordelia had not been integral to the show since season 1.
@@BiggestDawgEver
"No it didn't. I liked Charisma Carpenter but there was an expiration date with what they could do with Cordelia Chase."
Like it or hate it, people watching the show will respond to different things, in different ways.
It's that ongoing struggle between staying the same or becoming something different. And what those choices mean, and how they're done, and who they're done for, etc.
I agree with you that I didn't want to see Cordelia turned into some shock gimmick character doing sensational soap opera twist things. That's just her character jumping sharks, in a show and a character that weren't built being about jumping sharks. Who was that for? Or was that just done by Whedon as a way to destabilize the character, break her role and purpose in the ongoing show, and then be able to jettison her out of the show?
"Sorry but Charisma and Cordelia had not been integral to the show since season 1."
For most of the show, I liked her as:
1) a great personality
2) a welcoming access point for new and returning viewers
3) a great chemistry with Angel and the core cast
4) grounding the "connection to the normal world" half of the tone of the show (with Wesley grounding the "connection to the fantasy world" other half)
5) a great way to insert the direction to take an event in the episode/series
I am in no way saying that the things that I like, were things that everyone else liked. Or that those others who did like (some or all of) those things had to like them in the same ways I did, or for the same reasons.
Also, I was mostly a viewer who caught re-runs randomly on tv. So my experience as a viewer on that front, is gonna be different from people who watched it in different ways.
But I really liked Charisma/Cordelia in the show Angel. And I missed the show with her in it. And the show it became never fully stabilized to become an aggregate something I liked as much. But tastes will vary.
That's actually a really interesting insight. It speaks to the importance of honesty and communication in relationships, even business relationships. In a situation where everyone is aware of such restraints, the folks involved can make informed decisions. The TV show legend that demonstrates this is the Big Bang theory cast deciding to take pay cuts to better distribute available salary resources to less well paid cast members (since I'm not one of the cast members, I have no idea if this story is actually true, but it's a demonstration of the importance of communication and solidarity). The general lack of transparency of salaries is detrimental, as is the cultural mindset of money equating to success and things, particularly luxury goods, being status symbols. When we are valued for the way we are seen, what we own or how much money we have in the bank, we separate ourselves from self-love and self-acceptance, resulting in all kinds of issues appearing (feelings coming out as behaviours, essentially).
I think that was actually Friends where the cast banded together to all be paid the same.
Awww poor James. Definitely not your fault. Hope you know that now. You got caught up in the politics and someone was happy to let you do that & blame yourself. No bs, gods honest truth, I've actually had a conversation with charisma about the joss stuff. She was hurt in a colossal way but she has one person she'd like to be held accountable for her mistreatment. One person who made her life extremely difficult and he messed with her mind and caused a negative ripple effect throughout her life & career. That man is joss, not you James. Never you. Please release that guilt you're a good, talented man. The charisma decision was made as soon as she announced her pregnancy. Season 4 proves that. He's happy to blame her for season 4's storytelling & he was definitely happy for you to blame yourself & for the producers to take the fall for the money you're referring to. That's what people like joss do, that's why they're so dangerous. Hurting people & letting them blame each other while the person responsible is treated like a confidant and a good person. Disgusting
News to me, wow. But I doubt it. Leaving Charisma out seemed to have more to do with her relationship with Joss and his overall treatment of her after her pregnancy. This may have been a factor but I doubt it was the primary factor.
Man, that sounds like a rough life. Well... I'm off to my sh!tty night shift job for no money and no health insurance while living in poverty.
It's too bad the show was cancelled as I liked the format change of Season 5 which resulted in a ratings boost. The WB held the torch after the end of Buffy and they let a bunch of fans go to never return as a result.
Didn't Joss originally want a Faith spinoff with Spike as a ghost mentor(he was technically dead after Buffy Season 7)? So if Eliza Dushku had taken that offer and not done Tru Calling instead, there would've been no Season 5 of Angel?
That is not the reason. It was Joss Whedons twisted abusive mind and obsessive control he wanted to have over Charisma. He couldn't deal with her being pregnant. There are so many other things that could have been done instead of firing such an important character (this show would have been NOTHING without her) if it was because of the money but that was simply not the reason. Cordelias character started to be ripped apart way before season 5.
I kind of felt like the show runners on Angel hated Charisma at some point. That 4th season was so bad and they treated the character to poorly it broke my heart because she was literally the heart of the show up until that season. Angel was shaping up to be a complete boring mess, and when Cordelia shows up is when the show started to get better. Whedon is a trash person.
Cordelia was there from ep 1...?
I dunno, maybe it's just me, but when I read her account of her experiences with Whedon, it tracked a little bit like how when narcissists blame everyone else for their own problematic behavior. I noticed that she seemed like a bit of a prima donna, so I wonder how much of her issues might not have ha something to do with her own entitlement. As an actor on a series, the choices you make in your personal life affect the character you portray, and she apparently made some pretty big changes without consulting anyone about them. For instance, getting her hair cut --that isn't something you do on a whim as a series regular, you need to clear that with the showrunners FIRST. The fact that she didn't was not just inconsiderate but also unprofessional. Apparently, her character had a particular story arc that could not play out because of her pregnancy, so it seems weird that she talks about getting a crappy arc out of spite, since it may have just been crappy because she fucked up a better story that they had to scrap and rewrite on short notice ti accommodate her baby bump. These are thing that are extremely disruptive to a planned production, so I get kind of the feeling that her personality might not make her the easiest actor on set to work with, and maybe she is enough like Cordelia in her own personality that acting self-absorbed isn't a real stretch. Its telling that her favorite episodes are all about HER.
I think using James' salary as an excuse to get rid of Charisma is totally unfair. Joss was pissed at her long before season 5 was even a consideration. She was on her way out with or without James. It's Joss' playground. If he wanted her gone she was gone either way.
Did you learn this back when it happened or semi-recently?
It amazes me how people that dont know any of these people can chose to just deny their experiences in what happened, just because it doesnt exactly fit their own biased narrative.
Can no one but Charisma express their thoughts about people they both actual met and give their own explanation to it?
Why can't both of their experiences be true?
You and the lot of you in the comment section who instantly thinks "ah but thats not exactly what charisma said last time she spoke about it, so it cant be true", you guys need to learn to think some more!
@@n0namesowhatblerp362 wtf?
His accent was so convincing, I didn’t even know it was fake. Feels weird to hear him speak without it.
Damn! That was colder than anything done by the cool blooded Spike. That business is hard af. Good thing actors understand each other.
I get why he stuck to his guns regarding the pay, but it also shows he cares when he says he felt bad when he considered what he perceived as the consequence due Charisma. Which it probably wasn't, but that's how he felt.
I feel like if they had to get rid of a character due to budget constraints, they should have let go of Fred. There just wasn't much to the character until they killed her off and resurrected her as Illyria. Cordy was a breath of sunshine and sarcasm on the one episode for which they brought her back.
I almost hate to pit the characters against each other this way... but IMO if they had to get rid of a character to save Cordelia (and I'm not 100% Whedon wasn't just trying to get rid of her regardless of money), I'd say Lorne. I like the character just fine, but he was sort of expendable. Cordelia IMO was not.
I don't know much about this obviously, this is all superficial speculation, but my guess would be that neither Lorne nor Fred cost as much as Cordelia. I could be wrong, but it seems like an original cast member that was on Buffy would cost more than these new people who were less known (at least to the show's target audience), so cutting any of the new people wouldn't cover whatever money was necessary to secure Spike on the show.
If it really was about the money.
You're Welcome was such a good episode, one of my favourites... but ehhh Cordelia kind of lost me as soon as she came back from her trip with The Great Mighty Groo. Couldn't forgive her for never visiting Wes. That just felt so wrong
I agree!
@@noelbernabe8704 Lorne was certainly more expendable than Cordy!
Spike was the best character of both series. A great character. Great actor.
But with Buffy ending a season before Angel…couldn’t they have afforded to put more money into the final season of Angel? Wait? Buffy was on UPN at the time and Angel was still on The WB? That may explain it, network-wise…
If they wanted to cancel Angel, it must have been because the show wasn't making as much money for them. So why would they put even more money into it?
@couldn't think of a username I don't think that decision itself was egotistical. It was fair of him to ask for an earlier notice of renewal, and if it wasn't a new exec he asked about it he probably would've gotten that renewal. It's just poor luck. Joss has enough legitimate shit on him without piling on this extra nonsense.
They got rid of Charisma because they intentionally destroyed her character when she got pregnant. It was pure spite on their part. They didn't even tell her she was fired - she found out from a reporter. Cordelia was the best part of that show - they could have ditched any other character if they wanted to shrink the cast.
The last season of Angel was the only one I watched, and specifically because of Spike. 🤷🏻♂️
The first 3 are good.
Nice to see Lex Luthor and Spike just sitting around and shooting the shit. 😆
I'm convinced James is an actual Vampire, no other way how a dude who is almost 60 can look like that. It's like he has barely aged a day in 25 years.
I still wish that the TV shows Angel and Buffy continued after the finales instead of us getting stupid comic books that's why I always thought a revive would make sense. I was even excited when James mentioned back in 2013 or 2014 maybe 2017 that there was going to be a plan for a buffy reboot... even talked about it again when we had the Buffy Vampire Slayer reunion a long time ago.
Angel is one of my favourite shows and I honestly like it even better then Buffy sometimes, but I do pretend S4 never happened, and that Cordy coming back in S5 was a failed attempt to get back from the powers that be to stop the apocalypse, and that the whole Wolfram&Hart deal was done in the final events of the S3 finale with Angel being rescued by them.
Just like I pretend Buffy S6 ended after Once More WIth Feeling, only having the Spike getting a soul arc as the finale and then for S7 to start so I can ignore how they butchered Buffy and Spike with their romantic arc and how toxic Willow and Tara became (I was actually happy she died simply because I couldn't stand watching her enabling Willow's addiction any longer, and I'm a bisexual for crying out loud. The gays are not supposed to be uncomfortable with the gays in a show, but I totally was).
Angel improved greatly but started out as the 'poor cousin'.
What Joss did to Charisma/Cordelia in season 4 was beyond horrible.She was like half of a show her and Boreanez had insane chemistry.And Spike was great on Buffy but felt out of place on Angel.
I’m glad someone said it! They had severe chemistry 👏🏿
Buffy would not have lasted that long without James. That's y they needed him when Angel was getting cancelled. Although David was hot and brooding James brought the sexy and the drama. I get y Joss wanted to show the moral of the story but when it comes to ratings your vision trumps your audience. Sometimes writers and directors make successful storylines with just one plot twist. James is a thespian. Too bad Hollywood didn't make any use of him. He would have been as big as Brad Pitt. He is a sensational actor. Maybe Buffy made him pigeonholed. Maybe no one else took him seriously in Hollywood. But his fan base was bigger than Buffy or Angel.
Angel > Buffy any day of the week. Buffy is way too cheesy in retrospect. And the effects were too bad (Oz's wereworlf suit, anyone?).
Angel being darker and grittier straight out of the gate made for a much better show I thought. And Wesley's arc is probably the best out of any character in either show.
I loved the final season Angel, where they manage Wolfram & Hart. And that last scene was spot ot.
James and Charisma being on Supernatural together was amazing.
It's odd to me to think of Angel as the "lesser" show than Buffy. I realize it's a spinoff but it has much better writing and stories to me and the characters are better for the most part.
And it was clear Charisma Carpenter's departure was payback from Joss. He trashed her character then wrote her out. Gunn would have been the obvious choice to write out. As much as I liked Gunn, his character really was flat. They gave him the legal stuff in season 5 but even then, at the end he just ended up being the muscle.
His accent is still so surreal to me. Such an incredible performance and the character of a lifetime
Its funny how we think Directors are so awesome then later we find out they just get lucky sometimes and really dont have a fucking clue what an audience wants. Cordelia was like a "Spock to Kirk" Character... the loss of her was a sign the show was over.
For a man with such evil cheekbones he’s seems like a sweetheart
They could have cut Harmony for Cordelia, sorry that actress but the character didn't bring much.
But then James and Charisma did Supernatural together.
G/F and I burned through the entire Buffy series in about three weeks. Was surprised to find out here that he isn't English. Was surprised earlier that he is the narrator for The Dresden Files audiobooks.
He does a FANTASTIC job as Dresden.
Its so strange hearing him with an American accent, I legit thought James was British.
Season 5 was when I started watching Angel BECAUSE Spike was in it.
I get James attitude: but end of the day it’s on Joss. It was completely in his power to be honest.
Hey, we need spike on for another season, but on a different show.
We don’t wanna lose Charisma.
If I keep it equal, can I pay you each less but keep you both? Cuz at least then we’re ALL employed and the show goes on.
no it not it the network they have all the power.
He had every right to hold out for what he got. He literally saved that show.
Based on what’s come out about charisma and joss. I don’t think James is to blame. At least not entirely. Even if he has some reason as to why, it was small and it’s not like he knew. Though honestly if they wanted to keep Cordelia. They would’ve said something.
Nice one James... you stuck to your principals and shouldnt feel guilty (which it seems you do) as maybe Josh could have took a tiny paycut to pay Charisma.. which he had no intention of doing.
Though we don't know, maybe he did take a pay cut to be able to get James... Joss seems to have been only interested in keeping the show on the air, no matter how. People seem to be quick to judge nowadays.
Josh, who's Josh. I know who Joss is but is Josh his more evil twin brother?
principles*
He asks for early renewal so he can plan the rest of the season and then he ends the season on a cliffhanger.
I loved Cordelia in the early seasons of Angel, but the end of season 4 is seriously one of my least favorite plot archs in the entire franchise. The whole thing felt like it lacked thought, and the character development was terrible. It's not even surprising that the show was cancelled after season 4. That being said, I was sad to see Cordelia be killed off. Her character was absolutely redeemable, and Spike definitely added a great dynamic to the show. It's too bad that things didn't work out for the show in general. It would have been so fun to see where Angel and Spike ended up had they kept going with that arch.
Well....damn
Got to love him and charisma on Supernatural as married witches lol
🤣🤣🤣 still pretty nice of him to help with that Leviathan for Sam and Dean.
We all know if it wasn't for that Bobby would have never had a leviathan to experiment on and later find out that borax Burns leviathans lol so spike is a hero on buffy angel and Supernatural lol
Now I would of rather had Cordelia finish the season then spike join I was annoyed with the way they just threw her character away.