A little late to the party in commenting here but came across this video after having completed my first full pull down (including boiler), clean and seal replacement on my Pavoni Grand Romantica after 5 years of ownership. With our annual minimum usage starting around 830 cups + when we have guests. I have to admit I moved to this machine from a commercal grade single head with boiler and rotary pump machine that was a dream for efficency for turning out coffees quickly but became prohibatively expensive to maintain particulary in later years as parts needed to be replaced. The Pavoni's orininal appeal was its simplicity, no real electronics to die, no expensive pumps etc, nice and compact and from reveiws at the time very capable of a decent coffee. So entered La Pavoni GRL to our lives. Inital impression were... WTF have I done. Following the sellers the instructions fining up the grind instantly had me in trouble with no back pressure release.. all I can say is coffee explosion. Next the factory 3 hole steam wond was abismal with jeti level focus required to produce micro foam. (Come on I live in Australia, we drink flat whites. Big bubbles done belong in coffee). As others have said steaming was easily overcome by replacing the steam head with an after market single hole one. Yes a little slower but fine when you mostly only make 2 coffees at a time. Back pressure is mainly about the grind and tamp.. and sure I still sometimes get it wrong and have to vacumm up the mess. To the other points in the video. The left swing of the porta filter actually gives you the second grip point for opperating the machine rather than the boiler cap. Sevicing also helps to keep the lever lighter to opperate. The drip tray really isn't a problem. Put a cup under the head when you flush. The heat in the base seems to evavopate most of the water. I'm a bit lazy here so appart from a wipe after use it really only gets taken out and emptied/ washed about once a week. Personal pros list: This machine is some how capable of turning certain cheaper coffee beans (that were decidedly average in the commercal machine) into very good every day coffee. With us averaging 1kg of beans a week thats about $100 a month saved. Being a volumetric style machine by its very nature means even my wife who seem uninterested in learning what actually makes a great coffee can still make a decent one. It's a tactile and sensory experience and the love you put in comes out in the coffee you produce. Cleaning is great (apart from the occasional coffee explosion). With no back flow (using filtered water to reduce scale in the boiler) it is literally a wipe down and wash the drip tray between annual basic services. Being a very basic machine it is easily self serviced. The "basic" maintinance seal kit for annual servicing and a replacement lower drip tray (as I find these have a habit of cracking at some point maybe because a have the polished stainless top plate) can be purchased in australia for less than $100. This is basically everything required to rebuild the group head and steam valve including new pins and roller with recommended lubricants. The major service completed recently required additional base to boiler seals and element to boiler seals and it still came in less than $200... Less than a single basic service of the old commercial machine. I can't comment on the Cremina but needless to say I'm in no rush to move on from my Pavoni.
Another La Pavoni owner here just to add couple of tips. To avoid "coffee explosion" just use puck screen. Very easy and allows to immediately remove the portafilter without consequences. Another one is I removed the plastic tray completely and only use the metal cover. Firstly this allows to preheat the cup directly on metal tray and the second thing is that it is way easier to wipe the integrated chrome tray than bother with cleaning the plastic one. Just thought of another one. I rarely touch the power button because I am using WiFi plug, which allows to schedule or just remote power on\off or just use the button on the WiFi plug - La Pavoni switch is always on. I also stopped using Izzo Alex Duetto IV and find La Pavoni to be quicker, easier, and producing better espresso.
Mac user here. -I like the aesthetic and compactness of the La Pavoni -I love the idea of functional art. ‘Craft’ rather than a ‘metal box’ (The Flair is great this way, too, but doesn’t do milk)
Regarding milk, I echo the others here: single-hole steam wand tip. It's cheap and so easy I don't think I'd call it a "mod". Also, my (Europiccola) has screw that blocks movement on the steam wand, so it doesn't wiggle around when I use it.... I wonder if the Pro is different?
@@VancouverDaveOld europiccolas (I think only pre millennium) have a different style steam wand that you can't just slide off other than that they are identical.
A “sad” story- In NYC Inhad a bad pump on my Delinghi Dedica. I called them and they said I could get it repaired-at Cerinis in the Bronx- it cost right around $100.00 and they did a great job. That store is brilliant and they have tons of great true Italian machines. I highly recommend a visit to their store which also has Italian food and stuffs. Anyway, as one of the world’s leading Olympia dealers they did offer to let me try the Cremina. It was a life changing experience. Best coffee experience of my life. If one can afford it and one enjoys espresso, it is a machine to die for.
Hello Arthur, do you have experiences with C67 the first version of Cremina and wondering which difference between the new and old model because I found the older model is much affordable than newer model? Kindly advise. Calvin
Milk texturing is more difficult on the Pavoni than on a traditional machine, and has a steep learning curve, but it can work. Like you, I find it fairly easy to make an Italian-style dry-foam-capped cappuccino, though it took me quite a long time to learn how to get wet-microfoam for artisan/flat-white style milk drinks. There are also alternate steam wand tips with single holes that can make the process slightly easier, though I am currently using the original tip. The power from the steam wand is more than sufficient to create the foam, but creates a relatively slow/weak vortex, which doesn't reincorporate foam as well, so I find it easier to very slowly incorporate a tiny amount of foam at a time until the texture is visually correct, rather than the more common creating a lot of extra foam quickly all at once and then burying the wand until it all reincorporates fully. It also is somewhat easier if you get a milk pitcher with a rounded bottom inside, that assists the vortex movement (I use one from Kruve, but several companies make them).
Not so much of a comparison as a slating of the Pavoni. I have used my Pavoni professional for over 20 years and it makes great espresso. The skill of making espresso with a lever machine is in the hands of the user.
@@coffeewitharthur426 It'd be a better review if you had taken the time to come to terms with the La Pavoni. The steam wand moving, channeling, etc... these are technique issues as opposed to actual differences between the machines imo. There are however issues with the stock La Pavoni worth noting, almost everyone ends up modifying the steam tip to get good results, and the group head tends to overly heat with too many shots sequentially, unclear from your review how the Cremina does in this regard. Appreciate a comparison anyways, clear the Cremina is a heavier and nicer build.
thanks for your thoughts @@jasontyler4119 i have a decent too, and the steam wand on the pavoni moves a lot easier than the decent. i dont have steaming issues with the decent. as far as thermal stability goes, the cremina is a bit better, but i have talked about that in other videos so i didnt share it in this one.
The mac vs PC analogy breaks down completely when you consider the more expensive La Pavoni models, with copper boiler, wooden handles, brass group head, eagle figurine etc. - it's a work of art with a lovely retro/steampunk vibe. And still cheaper than Olympia Cremina.
I have both but my Pav is heavily modified and I think I disagree with most of what you say in this video. I don't know which machine I like better personality. My Pav would cost most people as much as a Cremina (my Cremina is also modded). I actually find the steam wand having a bit of play a benefit not a handicap. I replaced the steam tips on both machines to a single hole MAJOR improvement to both machines. I agree with you on the valve for the steam but that is an easy fix, I never need to open the valve very far on either machine to have to worry about doing that mod. I can't really relate to all of that stuff about how the machine sounds when warming up. The only sound I am passionate about when making espresso is the pour (this is why I only use direct manual levers). Heating up and the switch thing never occurred to me, but you do you. There definitely is a bit of that kind of a thing with my rituals with each machine (I have a weird thing about how the cup is placed, and where the handle is). I personally think you should modify both of them and keep them both, if I didn't have both there would not be enough espresso for my wife as I am a coffee black hole and neither machine can make a lot of espresso in my opinion.
I’ve been using my Pavoni -pro for less than a year. Im thinking about modding the machine. Could you list the mods you have done to your machine, thanks.
@@BigBlockESPRESSOhey man old comment but thought I’d chime in, my most recommended mods for the pav is probably the bong isolator (thermal break between the group head and the boiler) and digital temp probe for the group head, I find it much better then the stickers. The ppk is also really useful but a more expensive upgrade. I like to use a thin puck screen as the pav shower can be quite strong, and using the bong isolator also allows you to turn up the boiler pressure, without overheating the head. Mine maxes out at around 1.25 bar. This gives you much better steaming power. My group head once warm idles around 75 c now. Coffee sensor is the best place imo to get all your pav bits.
The Olympia is a wonderful machine! But I just love my La Pavoni Pro. It is so simple, back to basics. In my opinion, this is the way making espresso is meant to be. I also love the small imperfections. That is the difference between a Swiss perfection machine and an Italian machine with character 🙂.
PC owner here and 1986 Cremina owner too (I would never buy any Apple product). When I bought my Cremina my roommate had a La Pavoni. I thought it looked like hell. Still do. I have heard some parts are cheap. Glad I rebuilt my Cremina with a new group recently.
If you had any really nice tasting shots, it would be nice to see you show those (beans, temperature, pre-infusion and describe the taste). What are your current top five coffee experiences? (Could also be interesting combinations espresso+something else)
Yes I find the heat is more stable on the Cremina. The pavoni is faster to cool down, but i dont really need to worry about overheating shots on the Cremina as long as I put in a cold portafilter
I have been using a Rancilio Classe 5 - 1 Group head espresso machine for the past 5 years. It is plumbed direct from my RO water filtration system to remove fluoride and other toxic heavy metals. The machine refused to heat the water 5 months ago, and a tech came to our home and replaced the heating unit. No issues until yesterday, the hot water used to make tea, and the milk frother no longer work. I have decided to get the Rancilio machine fixed and sell it. I want a unit I can plumb vis the RO system mentioned above. Anyone here have a lever machine that can be plumbed? Thanks!
Hi Arthur, Great channel. My one critique on your Cremina review is that the Cremina's Circ Clips will not deform unless you remove them for piston change or addition of Pressure module (as I know you have tried). There isn't a competitor to the Cremina's build. It is a Professional, heavy duty machine made for the Espresso fan. It will last many lifetimes..... I hope your son will grow up to enjoy Espresso.....because he will wind up getting yours many, many years from now!
I’ve owned both - it’s like comparing a Volkswagen with a Mercedes. But, the price difference- oy. The Pavoni is a great starter machine but when you can afford the best the Cremina sets the bar for lever machines. The downside is the 49mm portafilter- good luck finding accessories.
Unless it's to pull a shocker and say the La Pavoni is somehow better, why are you comparing a $1,300 machine to one costing almost $4,000? I've spotted several of these "comparisons" and honestly just don't get it. What's next? A road test between a VW GTI and an AMG Mercedes?
@@tomscott4438 they have the same mechanism. They’re both like manual transmissions. If you wanna separate cars along the manual vs automatic line, then you’d put manual cars in the same category. That’s what I’m saying here. People want to know the difference between the two, so I made a video about it.
I did. Why? 1. I like the way it looks without it more 2. I found I was looking at the PPK too much and it was taking me out of the moment. 3. I developed good enough muscle memory to know about how high of a pressure im pulling.
I don't own a Cremina but still, I'm not sure whether I agree on your mac/pc comparison or not. Personally I think no matter what type of espresso machine, it will always be the "pc side" - the "mac side" being superautomatic machines. I'm from Switzerland and I think the Cremina is a beauitiful machine. It is expensive but not more so than any dual boiler or "lifestyle-product" like a linea mini or something, let alone a slayer. Here in Lucerne there is a Maximatic available in a store - it's from Olympia Express too, but it is a pump machine. Not the same, but the build quality is of course the same as with the Cremina, also the price. My current machine is a quickmill carola which is an espresso-only e61 machine that actually resembles the Cremina a bit. Do you know this machine? I really want to get into the lever machine game one day - I'm pretty sure it would be something I like. And I wanted to say, I really like your videos and the way you explain and talk about things. Very easy to understand and follow your thoughts.
Thanks for your comment. Yes I agree with your comment on the Mac and pc thing. I was talking about just in comparison of the pavoni to the Cremina. There are so many more mods for the pavoni than the Cremina. And it’s kind of assumed you will mod the pavoni when you get it.
@@coffeewitharthur426I finally decided to get into the lever thing and bought a Flair Pro 2. And I'm loving it! And I would say that yes, this is kind of "PC side". Compared to the Flair, even a LaPav seems like a Mac. I saw you got quite some videos showcasing the Flair...keep up the good work!
About the extraction, the difference you perceive between them is more likely down to brew temp and pressure. Cremina has higher boiler pressure than La Pavoni, meaning the water temp is higher. Let’s assume you preheat both grouphead to the same temp, cremina will end up with higher temp at the extraction because of higher water temp. 2nd, your La Pavoni is a post mill with 51mm basket while the cremina is 49mm, meaning you need bigger force to generate same pressure for extraction on the La Pavoni. Obviously you have no way to gauge your pull as you don’t have PPK installed on either machine. So assuming you use similar force to pull shots on both machines, your Pavoni shot will be pulled with lower pressure because of bigger basket size. And because you’re most likely pulling shots on Pavoni with lower temp water and less pressure, and the opposite on the cremina, that explains why you feel the former is under extracted and the latter is over extracted in comparison.
Ive got a La Pavoni and just adjusted the pressure stat, and running at 1.5 bars. The milk steam power is much better and a little dryer than at 0.8 bar. As a work around for the temperature being too hot, I switch the machine off when it’s up to temperature, sometimes I overshoot and have to wait a bit, I turn the machine back on after pulling the shot, the boiler pressure quickly gets back up to 1.5 bar and I steam the milk. Its a post millennium machine (51mm)
@@nehokthe bong isolator without Bongs AirBuster can result in very spongy pulls and reduced yield. And if a micro pump (Fellini) is carried out to compensate, the extraction is less than perfect. This is what I have noticed.
@@Luka-kb5tk the bong lets you up the boiler pressure which makes the sponge less and yield better. With my lp I have the boiler set to 1.25 bar. I dose 16g and get 34 to 36 grams out. 30/40s preinfusion very helpful. However if you don’t have pstat it may make it harder. If you didn’t already I’d suggest trying longer preinfusion. I don’t use any Fellini.
Brilliant, informative review. I agree, the Olympia Cremina is an end-game grail machine. It's not an Apple, however. Apple computers engineer planned obsolencense in their computers. The Olympia Cremina, however, will last a lifetime.
It is like being a photographer and using Leica. It’s the pure essence of the bare minimal, crafted and designed with an acute focus on every aspect of detail with the highest quality possible. Things don’t commonly get manufactured that way today, that’s why the industrialism eventually have to turn to planned aging, things eventually breaking so their factories would continue to produce and make money. That’s why pieces like this cost so much. But some of us enjoy that. Putting part of our life in to a machines soul, hopefully passing it one to the next generation to continue the experience whilst adding to that historic value.
‘Apple computers engineer planned obsolescence in their computers.” You’re not in Technology nor the Business worlds , are you. Care to have someone explain the pace of advancement in processors, networking, disk drives, memory, silicon fabrication, software development,… I say you go and build an “Apple computers” and let me know how it goes. Thank God all the other manufacturers don’t suffer the same. I’ll end it here so I can go do my work on my 2007 iMac.
Thanks for the video. About the drip tray, because of the price difference you could easily get a metal custom drip trail made by an artisan for less than 200$ :) But I agree they could at least offer an option for a none plastic drip tray. Also they could (and should) make the machine heavier by adding more meta on the base, or even lead or concrete. That would increase machine height by may be 2 cm which is totally fine. Again they could offer an option to add an heavy metal base.... or an artisan could cut an heavy metal piece at the right size for less than 100$. About channeling, there are several video demonstrating metal puke do help a lot alleviate this problem. Again a solution for less than 10$ At the end, Yes the Cremina is Great but does it make a coffee three times better than Pavoni? No ____ Still I have no issue with people spending thousands on a passion, this machine will last for ever.
Der Vergleich La Pavoni / Olympia hingt gewaltig! Allein der 3 1/2 fache Preisunterschied!! EMC wäre zumindest in preislicher Hinsicht ein einigermaßen fairer Vergleich gewesen. Ergo mag ich diesem “Vergleich” nicht zustimmen.
Well the Cremina is seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, more expensive than the cheapest La Pavoni, the Europiccola. So I'd hope the Cremina would be quite a lot better to use & have much better results. But the thing is a coffee or the milk frothing I think cannot be 7 times better from the Cremina than the Europiccola. So the real reasons have to be up to the individuals who would buy this machine. Not me! 🤔🤪
Cremina it's overall better but creates the same quality espresso and costs many times more You but it cause you want THAT machine, not because creates better espresso As for the steam, the major part of lever machines owners, don't care about milk drinks My opinion My 2 cents
@@coffeewitharthur426 Love on first site, that's normal and total acceptable That's why I got the LP, cause it was the same for me, for more than 30 years ago, and finally after many pump machines, i got it
I would only have a lever machine, because i want to interact fully with my morning espresso. I only drink light roasted coffee and i make a latte 80% of the time. I own both machines also. I don’t want to mod them, i don’t want to tinker. In my opinion my cremina was a bargain! I think it’s pretty snotty to think lever machines are only appreciated by espresso only people and that people who like milk drinks don’t appreciate a lever machine. I’m as picky about what milk i use as am about what coffee i use.
except if you're more likely to make a better shot w the Cremina, that's not the same quality average. I keep hearing Pavoni is more finicky to use, less heat stable, etc... but maybe you master either over time?
This is not apple vs mac. Unsure why so much focus is placed on overfilling the basket. These are machines that require craft/understanding from the barista. Learn each machine and see which can produce the better shot consistently from a competent barista. This is where the over the top materials and engineering wins out for Olympia. The only thing these two machines have in common is the lever system, other than that there is no comparison.
ok here is some comments... 1. the cremina costs about x5 the price of a Pavoni. So if you want ease of use, you probably have much more options at that price point!? 2. the cremina seems more robust of a build. Definitely. 3. the pavoni has smaller factor. 4. i am sure one can get equivalent coffee/milk from both machines!! 5. you have not gone into the ease of servicing the machines, which is important for the long run? 6. your 'overdosing' experiment and the taste/channeling comments imply that you have not dialed into the coffee correctly and probably the tamping needs some practice! (pls dont take offence!) Having said all that - I definitely a bias towards my Pavoni as well: 🙂 th-cam.com/video/09kaAsKPDCQ/w-d-xo.html What are you asking for that dreadful Pavoni of yours? Msg me. Cheers!
1. Its 3x. Compare the professional to the Cremina. They have similar boiler sizes. 3. Smaller by a very small margin. 4. Thats for sure 5. True. I haven’t had the pavoni for long enough but I heard the pavoni parts are cheaper. Buy in the end its like $25 instead of $15 6. I did overdosing on purpose to see how forgiving the machines were. As im in Japan im shipping from Japan and asking $900USD not including shipping
I find this review a bit nonsensical. In the U.K. you are comparing a 4k machine to one that new is 600 GBP for the Pavoni. And you’re talking about boiler sounds. 🤦♂️ If I have 4 grand to spend I wouldn’t be buying a boring relatively new company box looking thing. Considering boxes. Id go for some flow profiling like Bianca or Decent. Maybe consider a Londonium but not sure with their build quality. You are not comparing apples to apples just based on they have a lever.
They are both excellent machines. The difference in price is primarily due to manufacturing. There’s virtually no chance of a Decent machine surviving five decades without substantial replacements, in the manner that both of these machines will survive with minimal changes. These simple and manual machines are not difficult to learn, whereas, the crowd who likes to acquire numerous machines will have to remember quirks within program menus (e.g. the Bianca).
Unfortunately we own one. Don’t expect anything from the customer service - they don’t care. The statement from the NY Times about the Machine is from the 60s - different machine and different manufacturing company.
For anyone thinking about buying a lever machine, don’t. I’ve owned the Pavoni for the past year and I consider this my worst purchase of my life. The biggest waste of money ever. The value to money is extremely low. Impossible to produce good tasting espresso, let alone produce good foamy milk.
I’ve had lever machines for 40 years - finally got my Cremina last year. I’ll put the espresso I make on it against any other but I’ve had decades to perfect my technique. You want to just push a button - buy a Breville. I like the challenge.
Cremina half a year ago, after falling for the hands on feel and pure zen of espresso brewing on a Flair 2 pro. I don't regret my purchase for one second.
Clearly you haven’t been using this tool correctly. Most tools are only as good as the hands using them. Both machines can make wonderful espresso (i have both). Why do you think they’ve been made, almost unchanged for almost 60 years?!
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A little late to the party in commenting here but came across this video after having completed my first full pull down (including boiler), clean and seal replacement on my Pavoni Grand Romantica after 5 years of ownership. With our annual minimum usage starting around 830 cups + when we have guests.
I have to admit I moved to this machine from a commercal grade single head with boiler and rotary pump machine that was a dream for efficency for turning out coffees quickly but became prohibatively expensive to maintain particulary in later years as parts needed to be replaced.
The Pavoni's orininal appeal was its simplicity, no real electronics to die, no expensive pumps etc, nice and compact and from reveiws at the time very capable of a decent coffee.
So entered La Pavoni GRL to our lives.
Inital impression were... WTF have I done.
Following the sellers the instructions fining up the grind instantly had me in trouble with no back pressure release.. all I can say is coffee explosion.
Next the factory 3 hole steam wond was abismal with jeti level focus required to produce micro foam. (Come on I live in Australia, we drink flat whites. Big bubbles done belong in coffee).
As others have said steaming was easily overcome by replacing the steam head with an after market single hole one. Yes a little slower but fine when you mostly only make 2 coffees at a time.
Back pressure is mainly about the grind and tamp.. and sure I still sometimes get it wrong and have to vacumm up the mess.
To the other points in the video.
The left swing of the porta filter actually gives you the second grip point for opperating the machine rather than the boiler cap. Sevicing also helps to keep the lever lighter to opperate.
The drip tray really isn't a problem. Put a cup under the head when you flush. The heat in the base seems to evavopate most of the water. I'm a bit lazy here so appart from a wipe after use it really only gets taken out and emptied/ washed about once a week.
Personal pros list:
This machine is some how capable of turning certain cheaper coffee beans (that were decidedly average in the commercal machine) into very good every day coffee. With us averaging 1kg of beans a week thats about $100 a month saved.
Being a volumetric style machine by its very nature means even my wife who seem uninterested in learning what actually makes a great coffee can still make a decent one.
It's a tactile and sensory experience and the love you put in comes out in the coffee you produce.
Cleaning is great (apart from the occasional coffee explosion). With no back flow (using filtered water to reduce scale in the boiler) it is literally a wipe down and wash the drip tray between annual basic services.
Being a very basic machine it is easily self serviced. The "basic" maintinance seal kit for annual servicing and a replacement lower drip tray (as I find these have a habit of cracking at some point maybe because a have the polished stainless top plate) can be purchased in australia for less than $100. This is basically everything required to rebuild the group head and steam valve including new pins and roller with recommended lubricants.
The major service completed recently required additional base to boiler seals and element to boiler seals and it still came in less than $200... Less than a single basic service of the old commercial machine.
I can't comment on the Cremina but needless to say I'm in no rush to move on from my Pavoni.
Thanks for sharing your in-depth usage
Another La Pavoni owner here just to add couple of tips. To avoid "coffee explosion" just use puck screen. Very easy and allows to immediately remove the portafilter without consequences. Another one is I removed the plastic tray completely and only use the metal cover. Firstly this allows to preheat the cup directly on metal tray and the second thing is that it is way easier to wipe the integrated chrome tray than bother with cleaning the plastic one. Just thought of another one. I rarely touch the power button because I am using WiFi plug, which allows to schedule or just remote power on\off or just use the button on the WiFi plug - La Pavoni switch is always on. I also stopped using Izzo Alex Duetto IV and find La Pavoni to be quicker, easier, and producing better espresso.
The sneeze is usually caused by over dosing and/or grinding too fine.
Let a scale be your friend for consistency
I'm a Mac .. and I really enjoy using my Cremina every morning.. pure zen.
Me too
I love the sound of my La Pavoni in the morning, it sounds like coffee.
There is also a stainless drip tray for the pavoni
Of course the Olympia is the better machine but it's also 4x more expensive. For the price, the La Pavoni is hard to beat.
3x (3800 vs 1200)
Ok, but you get a used Pavoni for 400. I don’t think there is a big market for used creminas.
exactly! i believe in blind tests verdict could be very intresting.
Mac user here.
-I like the aesthetic and compactness of the La Pavoni
-I love the idea of functional art. ‘Craft’ rather than a ‘metal box’ (The Flair is great this way, too, but doesn’t do milk)
Regarding milk, I echo the others here: single-hole steam wand tip. It's cheap and so easy I don't think I'd call it a "mod".
Also, my (Europiccola) has screw that blocks movement on the steam wand, so it doesn't wiggle around when I use it.... I wonder if the Pro is different?
@@VancouverDaveOld europiccolas (I think only pre millennium) have a different style steam wand that you can't just slide off other than that they are identical.
A “sad” story- In NYC Inhad a bad pump on my Delinghi Dedica. I called them and they said I could get it repaired-at Cerinis in the Bronx- it cost right around $100.00 and they did a great job. That store is brilliant and they have tons of great true Italian machines. I highly recommend a visit to their store which also has Italian food and stuffs. Anyway, as one of the world’s leading Olympia dealers they did offer to let me try the Cremina. It was a life changing experience. Best coffee experience of my life. If one can afford it and one enjoys espresso, it is a machine to die for.
It is a “sad” story because I cannot afford one. At least not right now.
Thanks for sharing!
Hello Arthur, do you have experiences with C67 the first version of Cremina and wondering which difference between the new and old model because I found the older model is much affordable than newer model? Kindly advise. Calvin
Milk texturing is more difficult on the Pavoni than on a traditional machine, and has a steep learning curve, but it can work. Like you, I find it fairly easy to make an Italian-style dry-foam-capped cappuccino, though it took me quite a long time to learn how to get wet-microfoam for artisan/flat-white style milk drinks. There are also alternate steam wand tips with single holes that can make the process slightly easier, though I am currently using the original tip. The power from the steam wand is more than sufficient to create the foam, but creates a relatively slow/weak vortex, which doesn't reincorporate foam as well, so I find it easier to very slowly incorporate a tiny amount of foam at a time until the texture is visually correct, rather than the more common creating a lot of extra foam quickly all at once and then burying the wand until it all reincorporates fully. It also is somewhat easier if you get a milk pitcher with a rounded bottom inside, that assists the vortex movement (I use one from Kruve, but several companies make them).
Not so much of a comparison as a slating of the Pavoni. I have used my Pavoni professional for over 20 years and it makes great espresso. The skill of making espresso with a lever machine is in the hands of the user.
I shared good and bad of both
@@coffeewitharthur426 It'd be a better review if you had taken the time to come to terms with the La Pavoni. The steam wand moving, channeling, etc... these are technique issues as opposed to actual differences between the machines imo. There are however issues with the stock La Pavoni worth noting, almost everyone ends up modifying the steam tip to get good results, and the group head tends to overly heat with too many shots sequentially, unclear from your review how the Cremina does in this regard.
Appreciate a comparison anyways, clear the Cremina is a heavier and nicer build.
thanks for your thoughts @@jasontyler4119 i have a decent too, and the steam wand on the pavoni moves a lot easier than the decent. i dont have steaming issues with the decent.
as far as thermal stability goes, the cremina is a bit better, but i have talked about that in other videos so i didnt share it in this one.
@@jasontyler4119 i believe that la pavoni was made to preapare just 2, 3 coffee's at once, just home machine. i love mine !
I like the PC and mac analogy tbf, and as someone that has recently built a PC and just bought a pavoni with a view to modding it i feel validated 😊
Yeah man! Great to hear! To each their own
I like the analogy except the Pavoni is the beautiful one.
@@patrickchamberlain3980 to each their own
The mac vs PC analogy breaks down completely when you consider the more expensive La Pavoni models, with copper boiler, wooden handles, brass group head, eagle figurine etc. - it's a work of art with a lovely retro/steampunk vibe. And still cheaper than Olympia Cremina.
Steampunk aesthetic is closer to pc than Mac.
I have both but my Pav is heavily modified and I think I disagree with most of what you say in this video.
I don't know which machine I like better personality. My Pav would cost most people as much as a Cremina (my Cremina is also modded).
I actually find the steam wand having a bit of play a benefit not a handicap. I replaced the steam tips on both machines to a single hole MAJOR improvement to both machines.
I agree with you on the valve for the steam but that is an easy fix, I never need to open the valve very far on either machine to have to worry about doing that mod.
I can't really relate to all of that stuff about how the machine sounds when warming up. The only sound I am passionate about when making espresso is the pour (this is why I only use direct manual levers). Heating up and the switch thing never occurred to me, but you do you. There definitely is a bit of that kind of a thing with my rituals with each machine (I have a weird thing about how the cup is placed, and where the handle is).
I personally think you should modify both of them and keep them both, if I didn't have both there would not be enough espresso for my wife as I am a coffee black hole and neither machine can make a lot of espresso in my opinion.
Thanks man. I totally get it about the mods. For me, I’m not into modding for now. I want a machine that just works.
I’ve been using my Pavoni -pro for less than a year. Im thinking about modding the machine. Could you list the mods you have done to your machine, thanks.
@@BigBlockESPRESSO single tip wand is the first 10$ mod you need. everything else i think is a matter of technique and patience.
@@BigBlockESPRESSOhey man old comment but thought I’d chime in, my most recommended mods for the pav is probably the bong isolator (thermal break between the group head and the boiler) and digital temp probe for the group head, I find it much better then the stickers. The ppk is also really useful but a more expensive upgrade. I like to use a thin puck screen as the pav shower can be quite strong, and using the bong isolator also allows you to turn up the boiler pressure, without overheating the head. Mine maxes out at around 1.25 bar. This gives you much better steaming power. My group head once warm idles around 75 c now. Coffee sensor is the best place imo to get all your pav bits.
The Olympia is a wonderful machine! But I just love my La Pavoni Pro. It is so simple, back to basics. In my opinion, this is the way making espresso is meant to be. I also love the small imperfections. That is the difference between a Swiss perfection machine and an Italian machine with character 🙂.
for the pavoni steam it helps to have a 1 hole tip on the wand.
I get it. But still, that wand movement Always messes me up
PC owner here and 1986 Cremina owner too (I would never buy any Apple product). When I bought my Cremina my roommate had a La Pavoni. I thought it looked like hell. Still do. I have heard some parts are cheap. Glad I rebuilt my Cremina with a new group recently.
I would be tempted to get the spring version of cremina
Great video. Thanks a lot. There are only a handful of Cremina videos out there
Thanks! Any other kind of videos you want to see?
If you had any really nice tasting shots, it would be nice to see you show those (beans, temperature, pre-infusion and describe the taste). What are your current top five coffee experiences? (Could also be interesting combinations espresso+something else)
For milking frothing, single hole tip worked for me. Takes longer though.
The biggest issue for is that the steam wand moves too easily
Thanks Arthur! Nice comparo. Q: is the heat more stable on the Cremina? Did you have over-heating with the Pavoni?
Yes I find the heat is more stable on the Cremina. The pavoni is faster to cool down, but i dont really need to worry about overheating shots on the Cremina as long as I put in a cold portafilter
I have been using a Rancilio Classe 5 - 1 Group head espresso machine for the past 5 years. It is plumbed direct from my RO water filtration system to remove fluoride and other toxic heavy metals. The machine refused to heat the water 5 months ago, and a tech came to our home and replaced the heating unit. No issues until yesterday, the hot water used to make tea, and the milk frother no longer work. I have decided to get the Rancilio machine fixed and sell it. I want a unit I can plumb vis the RO system mentioned above. Anyone here have a lever machine that can be plumbed? Thanks!
Hi Arthur, Great channel. My one critique on your Cremina review is that the Cremina's Circ Clips will not deform unless you remove them for piston change or addition of Pressure module (as I know you have tried). There isn't a competitor to the Cremina's build. It is a Professional, heavy duty machine made for the Espresso fan. It will last many lifetimes..... I hope your son will grow up to enjoy Espresso.....because he will wind up getting yours many, many years from now!
Thanks for the comment! And yes thats probably why I have the gripe. Because they deformed when I added the PPK
I’ve owned both - it’s like comparing a Volkswagen with a Mercedes. But, the price difference- oy. The Pavoni is a great starter machine but when you can afford the best the Cremina sets the bar for lever machines. The downside is the 49mm portafilter- good luck finding accessories.
True that.
Павони вкуснее готовит эспрессо, так что не заливай, насчёт кремины, это просто маркетинг.
Unless it's to pull a shocker and say the La Pavoni is somehow better, why are you comparing a $1,300 machine to one costing almost $4,000? I've spotted several of these "comparisons" and honestly just don't get it. What's next? A road test between a VW GTI and an AMG Mercedes?
Because there are many people who say they are basically the same machine.
@@coffeewitharthur426 Are you one of them? How can anyone say they are the same machine?
@@tomscott4438 they have the same mechanism. They’re both like manual transmissions. If you wanna separate cars along the manual vs automatic line, then you’d put manual cars in the same category. That’s what I’m saying here.
People want to know the difference between the two, so I made a video about it.
Did you remove your pressure profile kit on the Cremina? and why? Thanks
I did. Why?
1. I like the way it looks without it more
2. I found I was looking at the PPK too much and it was taking me out of the moment.
3. I developed good enough muscle memory to know about how high of a pressure im pulling.
Where were you able to buy Cremina in the US? would greatly appreciate the response.
He got it from Cerini it is in New York and is the authorized dealer for the US
So if I understood your warm up time estimate, it took you about 15 minutes to warm up the Pavoni to achieve a well balanced shot?
Yes and pump the grouphead a couple times
I don't own a Cremina but still, I'm not sure whether I agree on your mac/pc comparison or not. Personally I think no matter what type of espresso machine, it will always be the "pc side" - the "mac side" being superautomatic machines.
I'm from Switzerland and I think the Cremina is a beauitiful machine. It is expensive but not more so than any dual boiler or "lifestyle-product" like a linea mini or something, let alone a slayer. Here in Lucerne there is a Maximatic available in a store - it's from Olympia Express too, but it is a pump machine. Not the same, but the build quality is of course the same as with the Cremina, also the price.
My current machine is a quickmill carola which is an espresso-only e61 machine that actually resembles the Cremina a bit. Do you know this machine?
I really want to get into the lever machine game one day - I'm pretty sure it would be something I like.
And I wanted to say, I really like your videos and the way you explain and talk about things. Very easy to understand and follow your thoughts.
Thanks for your comment. Yes I agree with your comment on the Mac and pc thing. I was talking about just in comparison of the pavoni to the Cremina. There are so many more mods for the pavoni than the Cremina. And it’s kind of assumed you will mod the pavoni when you get it.
@@coffeewitharthur426I finally decided to get into the lever thing and bought a Flair Pro 2. And I'm loving it! And I would say that yes, this is kind of "PC side".
Compared to the Flair, even a LaPav seems like a Mac.
I saw you got quite some videos showcasing the Flair...keep up the good work!
Linux and La Pavoni for the WIN! The Cremina is OBVIOUSLY designed for the same folks that would buy a Mac. LOL
Thank you, great video
Excellent video. Welcome back!
Thanks! It’s good to be back
You can set the thermostat to higher pressure/temperature on La Pavoni !!!
About the extraction, the difference you perceive between them is more likely down to brew temp and pressure. Cremina has higher boiler pressure than La Pavoni, meaning the water temp is higher. Let’s assume you preheat both grouphead to the same temp, cremina will end up with higher temp at the extraction because of higher water temp. 2nd, your La Pavoni is a post mill with 51mm basket while the cremina is 49mm, meaning you need bigger force to generate same pressure for extraction on the La Pavoni. Obviously you have no way to gauge your pull as you don’t have PPK installed on either machine. So assuming you use similar force to pull shots on both machines, your Pavoni shot will be pulled with lower pressure because of bigger basket size. And because you’re most likely pulling shots on Pavoni with lower temp water and less pressure, and the opposite on the cremina, that explains why you feel the former is under extracted and the latter is over extracted in comparison.
Yes I mentioned that Brew temp and pressure is likely the cause.
Ive got a La Pavoni and just adjusted the pressure stat, and running at 1.5 bars. The milk steam power is much better and a little dryer than at 0.8 bar. As a work around for the temperature being too hot, I switch the machine off when it’s up to temperature, sometimes I overshoot and have to wait a bit, I turn the machine back on after pulling the shot, the boiler pressure quickly gets back up to 1.5 bar and I steam the milk. Its a post millennium machine (51mm)
@@Luka-kb5tkyou need a bong isolator!
@@nehokthe bong isolator without Bongs AirBuster can result in very spongy pulls and reduced yield. And if a micro pump (Fellini) is carried out to compensate, the extraction is less than perfect. This is what I have noticed.
@@Luka-kb5tk the bong lets you up the boiler pressure which makes the sponge less and yield better. With my lp I have the boiler set to 1.25 bar. I dose 16g and get 34 to 36 grams out. 30/40s preinfusion very helpful. However if you don’t have pstat it may make it harder. If you didn’t already I’d suggest trying longer preinfusion. I don’t use any Fellini.
Good milk on a La Pavoni? Single hole tip ! And you'll get amazing texture
Thank you for saying "background" instead of the recently popular and nonsensical "backstory"
Brilliant, informative review. I agree, the Olympia Cremina is an end-game grail machine. It's not an Apple, however. Apple computers engineer planned obsolencense in their computers. The Olympia Cremina, however, will last a lifetime.
It is like being a photographer and using Leica. It’s the pure essence of the bare minimal, crafted and designed with an acute focus on every aspect of detail with the highest quality possible. Things don’t commonly get manufactured that way today, that’s why the industrialism eventually have to turn to planned aging, things eventually breaking so their factories would continue to produce and make money. That’s why pieces like this cost so much. But some of us enjoy that. Putting part of our life in to a machines soul, hopefully passing it one to the next generation to continue the experience whilst adding to that historic value.
‘Apple computers engineer planned obsolescence in their computers.” You’re not in Technology nor the Business worlds , are you. Care to have someone explain the pace of advancement in processors, networking, disk drives, memory, silicon fabrication, software development,… I say you go and build an “Apple computers” and let me know how it goes. Thank God all the other manufacturers don’t suffer the same. I’ll end it here so I can go do my work on my 2007 iMac.
@@bhagmeister I am not in the tech nor business world... BUT Louis Rossmann is. I highly recommend you watch his channel. You might learn something.
Would be cool to see a video of some nice coffee places in Tokyo or whichever city you live in. 🙂
Thanks for the video. About the drip tray, because of the price difference you could easily get a metal custom drip trail made by an artisan for less than 200$ :) But I agree they could at least offer an option for a none plastic drip tray. Also they could (and should) make the machine heavier by adding more meta on the base, or even lead or concrete. That would increase machine height by may be 2 cm which is totally fine. Again they could offer an option to add an heavy metal base.... or an artisan could cut an heavy metal piece at the right size for less than 100$.
About channeling, there are several video demonstrating metal puke do help a lot alleviate this problem. Again a solution for less than 10$
At the end, Yes the Cremina is Great but does it make a coffee three times better than Pavoni? No ____ Still I have no issue with people spending thousands on a passion, this machine will last for ever.
thx a lot for the comparison
- but the main argument for the pavonia remains its ... price;-)
Well it's been a year and I still mess up the milk on my Pavoni.
Try Cafelat Robot please
Der Vergleich La Pavoni / Olympia hingt gewaltig! Allein der 3 1/2 fache Preisunterschied!!
EMC wäre zumindest in preislicher Hinsicht ein einigermaßen fairer Vergleich gewesen.
Ergo mag ich diesem “Vergleich” nicht zustimmen.
Von welcher ECM Maschine reden Sie? Hier geht es doch ganz eindeutig um direkte Handhebelmaschinen.
Well the Cremina is seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, seven times, more expensive than the cheapest La Pavoni, the Europiccola. So I'd hope the Cremina would be quite a lot better to use & have much better results. But the thing is a coffee or the milk frothing I think cannot be 7 times better from the Cremina than the Europiccola. So the real reasons have to be up to the individuals who would buy this machine. Not me! 🤔🤪
Cremina it's overall better but creates the same quality espresso and costs many times more
You but it cause you want THAT machine, not because creates better espresso
As for the steam, the major part of lever machines owners, don't care about milk drinks
My opinion
My 2 cents
Yes. I got the Cremina because it was the first espresso machine I saw and thought “I want that”
@@coffeewitharthur426 Love on first site, that's normal and total acceptable
That's why I got the LP, cause it was the same for me, for more than 30 years ago, and finally after many pump machines, i got it
I would only have a lever machine, because i want to interact fully with my morning espresso. I only drink light roasted coffee and i make a latte 80% of the time. I own both machines also. I don’t want to mod them, i don’t want to tinker. In my opinion my cremina was a bargain! I think it’s pretty snotty to think lever machines are only appreciated by espresso only people and that people who like milk drinks don’t appreciate a lever machine. I’m as picky about what milk i use as am about what coffee i use.
except if you're more likely to make a better shot w the Cremina, that's not the same quality average. I keep hearing Pavoni is more finicky to use, less heat stable, etc... but maybe you master either over time?
@@jackolbean4765 they produce the same quality cup
Cremina is beautiful, but overpriced
The reality distortion field is strong here.
Want to explain?
This is not apple vs mac. Unsure why so much focus is placed on overfilling the basket. These are machines that require craft/understanding from the barista. Learn each machine and see which can produce the better shot consistently from a competent barista. This is where the over the top materials and engineering wins out for Olympia. The only thing these two machines have in common is the lever system, other than that there is no comparison.
I showed overstuffing the basket to emphasize how forgiving the Cremina is
ok here is some comments...
1. the cremina costs about x5 the price of a Pavoni. So if you want ease of use, you probably have much more options at that price point!?
2. the cremina seems more robust of a build. Definitely.
3. the pavoni has smaller factor.
4. i am sure one can get equivalent coffee/milk from both machines!!
5. you have not gone into the ease of servicing the machines, which is important for the long run?
6. your 'overdosing' experiment and the taste/channeling comments imply that you have not dialed into the coffee correctly and probably the tamping needs some practice! (pls dont take offence!)
Having said all that - I definitely a bias towards my Pavoni as well: 🙂
th-cam.com/video/09kaAsKPDCQ/w-d-xo.html
What are you asking for that dreadful Pavoni of yours? Msg me.
Cheers!
3x ($3800 vs $1200)
1. Its 3x. Compare the professional to the Cremina. They have similar boiler sizes.
3. Smaller by a very small margin.
4. Thats for sure
5. True. I haven’t had the pavoni for long enough but I heard the pavoni parts are cheaper. Buy in the end its like $25 instead of $15
6. I did overdosing on purpose to see how forgiving the machines were.
As im in Japan im shipping from Japan and asking $900USD not including shipping
$3800 vs $1000 🤔 or even $700 for the Europiccola.
The gap from good enough to perfect costs a lot of money
I find this review a bit nonsensical. In the U.K. you are comparing a 4k machine to one that new is 600 GBP for the Pavoni.
And you’re talking about boiler sounds. 🤦♂️
If I have 4 grand to spend I wouldn’t be buying a boring relatively new company box looking thing.
Considering boxes.
Id go for some flow profiling like Bianca or Decent. Maybe consider a Londonium but not sure with their build quality.
You are not comparing apples to apples just based on they have a lever.
They are both excellent machines. The difference in price is primarily due to manufacturing. There’s virtually no chance of a Decent machine surviving five decades without substantial replacements, in the manner that both of these machines will survive with minimal changes. These simple and manual machines are not difficult to learn, whereas, the crowd who likes to acquire numerous machines will have to remember quirks within program menus (e.g. the Bianca).
In my country, La Marzocco Linea Mini is cheaper than Cremina 😅
I know with one to pick 😄
And it's not from Italy........
Oh god... it's 3,000 Euros for the Olympia.
Yea it is
@@coffeewitharthur426 I want one, but I guess I'll stick to my Rancilio Silvia for a little bit longer.
@@BrokenCurtain yeah it’s really only a machine you’d get if it’s exactly what you want
The Cremina is ugly as sin! How can that be for the Mac crowd? 😂
What a silly video.
Unfortunately we own one. Don’t expect anything from the customer service - they don’t care. The statement from the NY Times about the Machine is from the 60s - different machine and different manufacturing company.
Are you talking about the Cremina or the pavoni?
@@coffeewitharthur426 cremina.
For anyone thinking about buying a lever machine, don’t. I’ve owned the Pavoni for the past year and I consider this my worst purchase of my life. The biggest waste of money ever.
The value to money is extremely low. Impossible to produce good tasting espresso, let alone produce good foamy milk.
I think you’re just using it wrong. I get great milk on my Cremina. This is why I like the Cremina over the pavoni
If you don't have the knowledge, don't blame the machine
Buy a DeLonghi
I’ve had lever machines for 40 years - finally got my Cremina last year. I’ll put the espresso I make on it against any other but I’ve had decades to perfect my technique. You want to just push a button - buy a Breville. I like the challenge.
Cremina half a year ago, after falling for the hands on feel and pure zen of espresso brewing on a Flair 2 pro. I don't regret my purchase for one second.
Clearly you haven’t been using this tool correctly. Most tools are only as good as the hands using them. Both machines can make wonderful espresso (i have both). Why do you think they’ve been made, almost unchanged for almost 60 years?!