What I find even crazier is that it's the Canucks doing that, I have gotten 1st level seats at my Devil's games for as little as $60 US. It is so tone deaf for Vancouver to do this to their fans, only thing more tone deaf would be them moving.
@@gabrielshabo5113 The Nashville game the Monday before Thanksgiving had some tickets in that price range available in the first level. Weeknight games facing a team on the lowest “price tier” are surprisingly affordable.
I've bought tickets regularly between $45 and $60 which is the approximate cost with food for a movie these days. Trick is to get the ticket package and it allows for more purchases at the cheap rates, no matter which game it is. So I could go to a game with Toronto or Montreal for around $60 with my quarter seasons tickets and retail on those is over $100. The story of the tickets being too high is false and has been for several years. Check their prices or try Fans First.
As a Buffalonian I will never forget the Day Pegula took over and did his press conference, and said our sole reason for existence going forward was to win cups. The energy, excitement and power the team had in that moment. Buffalo as you said totally is a hockey town. But it didn’t hurt that in the 70s we had the French Connection. The 80s were not as strong, but in the 90s Mogilny, LaFontaine, Hasek, Ray, May, Barnaby. The early 2000s with Miller, Drury, and Briere. Eichel was supposed to be the next driving force and for reasons the teams fault and reasons of his own that obviously didn’t pan out….Now the on ice product sucks, we are beyond fed up and we don’t have any stars where they alone produce must see moments. Where even if we lose, you can say well that kid is special and I would pay to see him up close. Everyone also talks about all the players that have moved on and won and thrived after leaving. There’s truth to that; but plenty of average to bad players have been through here as well. What the issue is, is I think in Buffalo the entire hockey community pinned all the teams hopes and dreams on those players. They are not number 1 super super stars. When they went to other teams where all the pressure was not on them, they thrived. We are so starved for heroes, for top tier excitement level talent, for a winning team we crush players under that weight. Finally after all the losing the fans are done. Most of the tickets sold these days are for the away teams. Come to Buffalo and watch a Sens, Leafs game and it’s overwhelmingly their fans that travel here. You’ll also see a ton of habs, penguins and bruins fans where the travel isn’t super hard for them. It seems ownership has total investment in the Bills and hasn’t really cared about the Sabres in years. Just on cruise control.
Buffalo is a hockey market. The problem is, if Pegula sells the Sabres (as many fans want), no billionaire is gonna want to keep the team in Buffalo. The team is heading to Quebec City or Atlanta.
I think the Sabres being a hockey market is shown by how long it took to thoroughly fall off - and I give credit to that fanbase for hanging on for so long. The team was a mess ten years ago but the fans were still showing up then. It seems like nearly destroying, then driving away Eichel was the breaking point (with an assist from the pandemic).
Grew up watching the French Connection in the Aud ... and totally agree with your assessment. The fans are STARVED for a competitive team! And you are 100% correct re Pegula and the Bills -- it's all-in with the team & the new stadium. Once the new stadium is open, I hope Terry can return some attention to the Sabres and the arena. It doesn't help at all with what Kim and the family are going through either. But relocation?! NO WAY.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl new billion dollar stadium. Mostly paid for by taxes no less. Have an owner worth like over 4 billion and 600 something million is coming out of taxes. Billboards, clothing, tv commercials, radio ads. It’s all Bills all the time. And yes football is the bigger market and yes the Bills are finally good. But so what in the 90s both teams were good and the Sabres got local media and attention. Hell Hasek did national commercials for credit card companies. The famous slinky for a spine ad. When Drury and Briere were here and we were a legit contender the entire city was tuned in tv, or radio. The entire city cheered and partied when they won playoff games. We’ve suffered a long long time. We’re over it. But we have an ownership with really deep pockets and local connections. Yet they are an after thought. They’ve gone all in on the Bills and left the hockey department on their own to figure it out. Which clearly hasn’t worked. It requires ownership at this point to put their foot down and draw lines in the sand. Put everyone on notice.
all of the ticket sites have jacked up fees to the point its more for the fees than the tickets. Sports, music, whatever. Some places fight back and offer tickets on site but that doesn't seem to work with sports. The venue gets in on it and starts charging fees too.
The Red Wings changed arenas 7 years ago and the new one is a little smaller (19,500 vs 20,000). So even if we sold out it would be less than 10 years ago and the numbers are very near capacities. Would be fun to know the arena capacities of each team on here for these years.
Season ticket holder for the Ducks, the upper bowl is always 80%+ full. Its the lower and middle bowls that are practically empty. Which with how the building is designed, all the locals know the upper bowl is the best viewing experience. We leave the lower bowl for families and newer fans, but with the team not being good, families and newer fans aren't showing up. That's why when you are watching Ducks games, it looks like the other team owns the building because all the lower bowl seats are just being resold at 100% profit.
I don’t know if you would be able to find accurate data, but percentages would probably be a better way to compare seasons. For St Louis, the building had its 30th birthday this year, and in that time, there have been multiple renovations. Each time, they’ve taken out more seats. When it first opened, there were games with attendance over 20k, but I think official capacity was about 19,800. At this point, it’s 18,100.
For sure he also failed to mention the Devils arena only has a capacity of like 16500 so even if they sold out every year they would be near the bottom of a list like this
@@TurdFerguson92 Yep, percentages would be more helpful, Devils percentages have always been really good even in down years since the move to Newark. While I loved going to Continenta/Byrnel Arena as a kid for Devils/Nets games, I remember how cavernous it could be even when both teams were good.
@@TurdFerguson92 Hurricanes stadium seats 18,700 for hockey games, their average attendance is above capacity. Makes sense since they regularly sell out
Would love a follow-up video on revenue per ticket which may or may not show a lower attendance market like New Jersey might actually be on the top of the list revenue wise for example.
Competing with OSU football in stretches never helps either. But then again once it’s done the average bumps up and it’s always been just fine for what it’s worth.
The Jackets have always been something of a challenged franchise, making the playoffs only six times in their 23 seasons. It's a good thing they only have MLS and college sports to compete with.
And it's personally a worse experience, at least in the upper bowl. The Joe had a great upper bowl, while some of the upper bowl seats in LCA are so bad they aren't even worth it.
You have to look at seating capacity for the teams rinks they are not all the same so some may be a sell out but others may not but the smaller arenas compared to larger ones etc
We used to get panthers season tickets for so cheap. I remember looking at certain sections thinking that they probably just keep that area closed for some reason when i was younger. So happy the team is doing so much better. The owners the past few years finally started advertisements around the tri county area and have completely turned the team around.
Jets fan here... and I'm one of the people who put my money where my fandom is and bought 1/4 seasons. Have attended 5 games so far this year and 3 of them were sellouts at 15,235 so our numbers are way better than they were this time last year. I did calculations for all the teams and divided current attendance from attendance a decade ago and we are in the mushy middle for attendance at 91% capacity. I noticed Calgary's numbers are very similar to ours at around 93% of where they were 10 years ago and there were quite a few other markets that were lower in percentage than Winnipeg attendance. So all of that is very encouraging and I'll keep buying as often as I can. I will add that corporate support in Winnipeg is a paltry 14% while a team like Edmonton has over 40% corporate support in recent years. Perhaps if owners allowed shares of the teams people with money could buy shares and help support the teams that way. Just a thought anyway. Thanks Shannon for this. Last I heard from Bettman when he was asked about concerns about Ottawa and Winnipeg he said he had no concerns with either market, that there was stable ownership and good fan support for both teams. That's what I wanted to hear.
You are absolutely right: corporate support in Winnipeg is pitiful. TNSE keeps threatening individual ticket holders when they should be targeting corporate clients. As well, the big attendance arenas have much larger cities, in general. The island of Montreal: 3 million plus. So in terms of demographics, seems to me Jets fans are pretty alright and loyal.
@@kimsawchuk69 THERE ARE NO CORPORATE clients. It is a well known fact and stated in the Athletic article about the team that Winnipeg by far is the market with the fewest large companies.
Will in 2027 that would change for Flames as the Scotia Place which is the new arena is. That is going to be less than the Saddledome. 18,400 than 19,289. So the average for this season would be in percent higher.
The difference in Florida is crazy. Went to a Panthers game in about 2010, just happen to be in Florida when the flyers were there. Really nice arena with more flyers fans than Panthers fans. Nice to see the turn around.
Oh yeah. The difference is wild. I love to see it. We got crapped on for 2 decades for having a low attendance rate and now we fill out almost every seat.
One thing to note about Utah's games, Utah has actually been averaging close to 15k a game, but they are only counting the unobscured seats towards attendance. The arena in its current configuration can hold over 16k. And it has a few times already. The attendance numbers are misleading. But those numbers will change once the adjustments to seating are made as you said.
boy, I wish Montreal would be in the battle for the Cup with consistency again. It would be great for hockey overall. I'm from Brasil, and their street party in 2021 made me remember why Montreal is the only "latin" city in the league. Latin: in the sense that Quebec speaks french, a language that has it's roots in the latin language.
Just for reference, top 5 attendance numbers in Europe last season: - Cologne 16,993 - Bern 15,540 - Berlin 13,804 - Saint Petersburg 13,332 - Minsk 12,143
When Montreal is in the playoff hunt, I've known many people who chose to go to 4-5 games at 200$ish per ticket INSTEAD of a carribean vacation... And they REALLY wanted that vacation to thaw out for a week in winter. Ticket price to average/median income ratio is crazy high
Listen to the report again -- he commented that when the Devils first moved to New Jersey (and played in the the Meadowlands) there were concerns of the long-term stability of the franchise.
You should have put in what % of seats are selling. Minnesota is "down" but thats because 10 years ago they were at like 109% capacity and now they're sitting around 103%, they still sell out every game
@@JarradBruessel32 I can't speak to that one in particular, but I know the Sharks made a "premium lounge" area that cut out seven suites total and three rows in one or two sections and cut the capacity from 17,562 to 17,435. Before you say it, I'm aware that, aside from special occasions like the Joe Thornton retirement night, it's been awhile since the Sharks had any concerns about their capacity (though the arena's had plenty of sellouts for concerts and whatnot in that time). For awhile in the 2010s they had a several year long sellout streak going, though, and hopefully it starts filling up again soon as the team improves.
Merry Christmas Shannon, your Hockeyismas tree looks excellent, well done! I just also want to thank you for putting out such a great array of videos, you're the best! - Love Edmonton
I think something like this deserves a deeper dive, maybe a series for the off-season. As others have pointed-out, these numbers don't reflect how full each arena is. In addition to that, I would personally like to see how much competition each market has to deal with when it comes to other sports. A few of these teams have to deal with other pro sports year-round, while some might only have to compete with college sports teams for a short period of time for attendance. The size of the local market should be considered, too. A small market team that almost sells-out every game is more impressive (to me, anyway) than a big city team that can't fill the building.
As a Blues fan, you got me to dive into seating capacity changes at Enterprise Center (as currently known) over the years in question. In 2014, its hockey seating totaled 19,140; in 2019 it was 18,724; now it's 18,096 (all per Wikipedia) with general admission seating being swapped out for "theater boxes," etc. So percentage-wise, the Blues were at 96.8% 10 years ago, 92.4% five years ago, and back to 96.8% this year. It would be interesting to see how other teams fared as a percentage of capacity in addition to the raw numbers. Fun topic!
Fans in Buffalo are so pissed off with their team. One of their fans, Melody Martin, threw in the towel.I haven't heard anything from her in a long while
Those are interesting stats, but I recommend that you add arena capacity. Some areas have been renovated to add more suites, but general seating has been lost.
Devils look light but they’re averaging close to capacity, and the crowds are better too. In the bad days, it was never as empty as it is in San Jose or Buffalo today, but we attracted some real bottom feeders. They’re still there, but there aren’t as many of them.
Chicago is crazy expensive and getting in and around the city is an absolute pain. Just went to the recent game vs. Islanders, and had a great time, but will not go to anymore this season. Too expensive.
NJ's issue was, and still is albeit not as great, being in the shadow of the NY market. The Rangers have always had a large fan base, so 99% of NJ hockey fans were Rangers fans and Flyers fans. Its been a very slow growth, but the Devils have developed a very faithful and strong following.
It would help if you had an asterisk beside the teams that changed buildings. For instance, Edmonton went from Northlands to Rogers Place and the 10-year-old attendance number represents a sell-out at that venue.
With regards to Columbus, they are by far the most entertaining NHL games I've been to in a long while. The venue is nice and the fanbase is great. There are a lot of away team ticket sales as well. We also have a Toronto-like level of hope when we hit a streak 😆
All the naysayers need to remember that Winnipeg has an owner with nearly as much money as the rest of the owners combined. He's fine with the tax write off.
The official capacity for Xcel Energy Center (Minnesota Wild) is 17,954, and every game sells out. The only explanation for lower attendance I can think of is fewer standing room tickets.
If you want to fill in seats in the tri county area you’ve got to put out a quality product. There are major events going on every week in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca and West Palm so if you have a bad product people are not going to spend money to come watch when there’s a lot of other stuff going on. This ownership group and FO understand that more than anyone and their commitment towards having a stellar on ice product has been phenomenal
It is hard to grasp what goes on here without knowing the size of the venues they play in. I bet many of teams are at or near 100% capacity. The difference in numbers between many of these teams is simply the difference in their arenas.
Also, because my Ducks are so bad, it's incredibly easy to buy a ticket to the upper levels and then go down to seats near the ice during the end of the 1st period.
This pretty much shows that there are no bad markets in the NHL. I think Arizona was the worst along with my location in South Florida. But winning, shows that the worst locations will sell out if they win.
The misleading thing for our Sabres.....over 60-70% of the arena these days is non-Sabres fans and usually we are overrun by opposing fans. But in a way...we don't care. MTL and Toronto is they come to town it is a home game for them with 80% of their fans. Sabres fans know not to go to the games these days anymore as it is cheaper to just sell your season tickets or others to opposing fans. The team has basically lost the fan experience over the last 15 years. Not be surprising with whatever attendance is left if the team is sold by the NHL and moved.
@Jwelly963 hehe my point exactly. You guys mostly go to our arena for the cheaper tickets. Hehe I think at this point you guys are more so funding and keeping us in Buffalo right now. XD
Hence why when they allowed fans back in arenas after the pandemic but canada was still doing restrictions and you couldn't get across the border as easily attendance was so abysmal for buffalo. No Canadians were going to the games to watch their teams play buffalo
I think when the salary cap was instituted, many fans, especially in Toronto, thought that ticket prices would drop. Sadly, that never really happened and the average Joe can’t afford decent seats to take his family to a game.
Vegas capacity is 17,500. They were selling practically every game in the first few seasons out plus standing room. Ow they are “only” 100% seating capacity, not doing standing room it seems.
I agree; Vegas has never really been tested with a terrible team. On the other hand, it does have the advantage of being a popular tourist destination in a warm weather state. A few times in the first season (notably against Chicago and Winnipeg) maybe 35 to 40% of the seats seemed to be occupied by visiting fans. It's never been that heavy since, but it does provide a bit of stability.
If I was in the SJ area, I'd definitely take in Sharks games. It's a fun team to watch with the youngster Celibrini and the other veteran players helping him be at his best every game.
Kings games I went to this season: Vegas, noticeable empty seats because the World Series. Riot cops at exits after game ordering fans to head home, traffic being redirected, could see some people not wanting to be in that hassle (reports of mayhem was minimal compared to past) along with preferring to watch the Dodgers clinch a championship. Some Vegas fans, not as many as years before. Vancouver, pretty much full in comparison; the luxury dining booth to watch games (special sections on suites level) above and behind us was empty but had its dinnerware spread on display for mere mortals to inspect ($150 seats on StubHub vs. Dallas this week, but expect to add meals and drinks). Canucks fans not as numerous in past decades; been to all three California arenas and Canucks fans can be numerous.
These numbers don't provide a ton of context. Seating capacity can change up or down based on renovations. Xcel Energy Center is top 4 in capacity this year so far at over 100%. I don't think attendance is down based on what's sold/reported currently compared to 10 years ago.
It always baffled me how Sabres fans are still going to games when the team shows no signs of progression for a decade and a half. Pegula’s gotta look at this and say, “Maybe this needs some work to get fans back.” Knowing our luck, he’ll probably just plant palm trees outside KeyBank Center. Ah the suffering never ends.
It isn't mostly Sabres fans. People that go there and many of us watch know it is the opposing fans that are usually there more. It is a cheap ticket for the better teams that are more priced out in their arena.
@ Surprising that Winnipeg doesn’t sell more tickets when they actually have a fantastic team there. I guess it is pricing based on what I hear from Jets fans.
@@PigeonholePrinciple small market (pop. 850,000), smaller than average venue, and not a ton of corporate support. Canadians are taxed to the hilt right now, so less people have the excess cash to shell out to see a game live.
As a Panthers fan, I wouldn't trade the cup or current success for the world, but tickets have gotten expensive enough now that it's hard to make the trip to South Florida. Used to make 6 games or so per year.
Winning cures all ills in the sports world. For the most part...Shannon, as an addendum to this video, and to get a more complete financial picture, you should do videos about each team's TV and streaming revenues, merch sales, concession sales, parking revenues, luxury boxes, etc., since these play a large part in the kind of team each franchise can put on the ice to be competitive. Salary caps are great - at least for fans and the league as a whole - but there are a lot more nuanced aspects to team revenues than are readily apparent. It's not just ticket sales...Honestly I don't know how much of this data is available, but it would be awesome to have more puzzle pieces...Interesting Utah and Winnipeg numbers...
I still hear Tampa's attendance was bad in 2009. Well yes it was the city and state was devastated by the recession. Gotta give alot of credit to Vinik and his commitment to the community.
I was in Nashville in the fall and I was taking to a local. He said that he always picking up tickets for $10 ua. Those were standing tickets. I have to say that his ticket had a better view than my upper deck ticket that cost me $60 plus.
Apparently Bell Centre lost like 160 seats last decade, and now the max capacity is 21,105. Since the average attendance is 1 higher at 21,106 there is one extra spectator illegally for every game :)
Not an Oilers fan but it's important to point out that the reason the numbers are different than 10 years ago is because the Rogers Centre was not open then. Same thing with a couple of the other teams ... capacity is different (even in the same Arena). More research on these numbers and better detail provided would have been appreciated. Nonetheless ... always enjoy your videos!
@@PuckDropCards smaller arena capacity than used to be and less standing room as well. Plus some people got pissy the wild are what they call "woke" and stopped watching the team.
Going to 6 jets games this year. Went to 4 last year. For me the average cost of going to a game comes out to around $200cdn with ticket, drinks/food, parking/fuel. I can see why many dont want to spend that kimd of money when you can see the game from home
It would be interesting to do a list of the most dedicated NHL fan bases. Idk how that would be calculated but I always wonder which cities have the most dedicated fans who go to games because they love hockey, not just because the team is on a hot streak.
A drive around NHL cities is a great way to gauge support for their NHL team. License plate holders, personalized license plates, window decals in cars, business' signage. A couple years back, Sean, THG, made note that the support VGK gets is impressive and very visible driving around the valley. He noted the license plates, business signage, hats, merchandise ,etc... is all over the entire Vegas Valley. Sean mentioned that the support VGK gets that he observed just driving around was more impressive than for the Vancouver Cunucks. I am from Minnesota. I agree. The support that VGK gets is impressive. Anybody who drives around that community cannot miss the huge support of VGK. The ownership of VGK was in that community two years before Vegas got an expansion team. Bill Foley's message to the Valley was he is dedicated to put winning/competitive teams on the ice. His philosophy is always being competitive. He also invests directly in the community. Still does. Foley also used no public tax dollars. That is a huge plus vs many owners of sports teams that always ask for public money for stadiums, arenas, and lobby local politicians for special tax zones, etc... Not VGK/Bill Foley. VGK is much more respected and supported and loved than the Las Vegas Raiders. The Raiders are impactful with lots of fans as all NFL teams have. But the NHL VGK have the hearts of the Las Vegas Valley, not the NFL Raiders as the NHL Raiders are viewed as carpet bagger's by many and also took about 700 million dollars of tax payers money help with Stadium. The locales in the Valley see VGK as their own, just like Bill Foley told them before he even was granted a NHL expansion team. Many shallow thinkers from other NHL fan bases don't grasp the support that VGK has from every nook and cranny of the entire Las Vegas Valley.
Just want to quickly mention the Kings attendance this year is impacted by the Dodgers world series run. Ever since it's ended, most games have been sellouts.
for detroit LCA replaced Joe louis in 2017. i think capacity at JLA was higher tha the new LCA. if you make this chart a good idea would be good to know if a new arena is involved and the difference in capacity. new LCA sellout is 19515 and JLA as 20,027. basically all wings games are sellouts.
The idea that the actual Hockey Guy is priced out from his local team is just terrible
What I find even crazier is that it's the Canucks doing that, I have gotten 1st level seats at my Devil's games for as little as $60 US. It is so tone deaf for Vancouver to do this to their fans, only thing more tone deaf would be them moving.
@@zept2170 where were u finding $60 first level Devils seats. I wish lol
@@gabrielshabo5113I got three tickets for $60 each for the Canes game in section 19. It pays to do a wait and see what becomes available.
@@gabrielshabo5113 The Nashville game the Monday before Thanksgiving had some tickets in that price range available in the first level. Weeknight games facing a team on the lowest “price tier” are surprisingly affordable.
@@gabrielshabo5113 Just buy the day of the game close to puck drop.
NJ can't really do better.
Max capacity is 16,514.
It would be interesting to have % too
That one dude not in attendance at Vancouver games this year is you Shannon!
I'd believe it cause he did kind of start around 10 years ago. I think Bill is Shannon. Lol
my thoughts exactly lol
No because before Shannon started this channel he said that he couldn't afford a game and hadn't gone since the 90s if I remember correctly.
Florida being top 10 in attendance now is absolutely triggering to certain people out there
good ownership does wonders... that and Miami fans like teams that battle and win
Pretty much
We'll talk again when the cats start to lose...
Why bother supporting something that’s losing and is terrible. Not sure what you’re trying to prove with that
And by certain people you mean Canadian hockey fans who think southern states aren't worthy of NHL teams right?
Winnipeg is concerning, I live here and the people who can afford tickets go, everyone else can’t afford tickets….
I hope the Jets don't pull an Atlanta...
@liamjones4062 i wouldn't worry. David Thompson is one of the owners and he's the richest man in Canada
It’s tough for Manitobans, one of the poorest areas on the continent.
I've bought tickets regularly between $45 and $60 which is the approximate cost with food for a movie these days. Trick is to get the ticket package and it allows for more purchases at the cheap rates, no matter which game it is. So I could go to a game with Toronto or Montreal for around $60 with my quarter seasons tickets and retail on those is over $100. The story of the tickets being too high is false and has been for several years. Check their prices or try Fans First.
@@TheSobeysworker I believe he is the wealthiest owner in the League.
With the Devils you have to take into account its a smaller Arena and capacity is like 16700
As a Buffalonian I will never forget the Day Pegula took over and did his press conference, and said our sole reason for existence going forward was to win cups. The energy, excitement and power the team had in that moment. Buffalo as you said totally is a hockey town. But it didn’t hurt that in the 70s we had the French Connection. The 80s were not as strong, but in the 90s Mogilny, LaFontaine, Hasek, Ray, May, Barnaby. The early 2000s with Miller, Drury, and Briere. Eichel was supposed to be the next driving force and for reasons the teams fault and reasons of his own that obviously didn’t pan out….Now the on ice product sucks, we are beyond fed up and we don’t have any stars where they alone produce must see moments. Where even if we lose, you can say well that kid is special and I would pay to see him up close. Everyone also talks about all the players that have moved on and won and thrived after leaving. There’s truth to that; but plenty of average to bad players have been through here as well. What the issue is, is I think in Buffalo the entire hockey community pinned all the teams hopes and dreams on those players. They are not number 1 super super stars. When they went to other teams where all the pressure was not on them, they thrived. We are so starved for heroes, for top tier excitement level talent, for a winning team we crush players under that weight. Finally after all the losing the fans are done. Most of the tickets sold these days are for the away teams. Come to Buffalo and watch a Sens, Leafs game and it’s overwhelmingly their fans that travel here. You’ll also see a ton of habs, penguins and bruins fans where the travel isn’t super hard for them. It seems ownership has total investment in the Bills and hasn’t really cared about the Sabres in years. Just on cruise control.
Buffalo is a hockey market. The problem is, if Pegula sells the Sabres (as many fans want), no billionaire is gonna want to keep the team in Buffalo. The team is heading to Quebec City or Atlanta.
@ quite possible. I don’t necessarily want them to sell. I just want them to care about the Sabres half as much as they care about the Bills.
I think the Sabres being a hockey market is shown by how long it took to thoroughly fall off - and I give credit to that fanbase for hanging on for so long. The team was a mess ten years ago but the fans were still showing up then. It seems like nearly destroying, then driving away Eichel was the breaking point (with an assist from the pandemic).
Grew up watching the French Connection in the Aud ... and totally agree with your assessment. The fans are STARVED for a competitive team! And you are 100% correct re Pegula and the Bills -- it's all-in with the team & the new stadium. Once the new stadium is open, I hope Terry can return some attention to the Sabres and the arena. It doesn't help at all with what Kim and the family are going through either. But relocation?! NO WAY.
@@JonDoe-ln6nl new billion dollar stadium. Mostly paid for by taxes no less. Have an owner worth like over 4 billion and 600 something million is coming out of taxes. Billboards, clothing, tv commercials, radio ads. It’s all Bills all the time. And yes football is the bigger market and yes the Bills are finally good. But so what in the 90s both teams were good and the Sabres got local media and attention. Hell Hasek did national commercials for credit card companies. The famous slinky for a spine ad. When Drury and Briere were here and we were a legit contender the entire city was tuned in tv, or radio. The entire city cheered and partied when they won playoff games. We’ve suffered a long long time. We’re over it. But we have an ownership with really deep pockets and local connections. Yet they are an after thought. They’ve gone all in on the Bills and left the hockey department on their own to figure it out. Which clearly hasn’t worked. It requires ownership at this point to put their foot down and draw lines in the sand. Put everyone on notice.
I think the biggest problem is a Ticketmaster, not a NHL
all of the ticket sites have jacked up fees to the point its more for the fees than the tickets. Sports, music, whatever. Some places fight back and offer tickets on site but that doesn't seem to work with sports. The venue gets in on it and starts charging fees too.
FYI, Ticketmaster does not sell every NHL franchise.
The Red Wings changed arenas 7 years ago and the new one is a little smaller (19,500 vs 20,000). So even if we sold out it would be less than 10 years ago and the numbers are very near capacities. Would be fun to know the arena capacities of each team on here for these years.
Season ticket holder for the Ducks, the upper bowl is always 80%+ full. Its the lower and middle bowls that are practically empty. Which with how the building is designed, all the locals know the upper bowl is the best viewing experience. We leave the lower bowl for families and newer fans, but with the team not being good, families and newer fans aren't showing up. That's why when you are watching Ducks games, it looks like the other team owns the building because all the lower bowl seats are just being resold at 100% profit.
I don’t know if you would be able to find accurate data, but percentages would probably be a better way to compare seasons. For St Louis, the building had its 30th birthday this year, and in that time, there have been multiple renovations. Each time, they’ve taken out more seats. When it first opened, there were games with attendance over 20k, but I think official capacity was about 19,800. At this point, it’s 18,100.
For sure he also failed to mention the Devils arena only has a capacity of like 16500 so even if they sold out every year they would be near the bottom of a list like this
Indeed. It seems like the Preds lost some seats when Bridgestone Arena remodeled an area of the stadium into premium seating/lounge area.
@@TurdFerguson92 Yep, percentages would be more helpful, Devils percentages have always been really good even in down years since the move to Newark. While I loved going to Continenta/Byrnel Arena as a kid for Devils/Nets games, I remember how cavernous it could be even when both teams were good.
@@TurdFerguson92 Hurricanes stadium seats 18,700 for hockey games, their average attendance is above capacity. Makes sense since they regularly sell out
Would love a follow-up video on revenue per ticket which may or may not show a lower attendance market like New Jersey might actually be on the top of the list revenue wise for example.
As far as I'm aware, the Jackets have never operated at a loss. We have never been a cash cow but we don't cost anything to have around.
Competing with OSU football in stretches never helps either. But then again once it’s done the average bumps up and it’s always been just fine for what it’s worth.
The Jackets have always been something of a challenged franchise, making the playoffs only six times in their 23 seasons. It's a good thing they only have MLS and college sports to compete with.
Columbus receives some of the most in welfare payments from the big profitable teams. Only Ottawa and Arizona received more in 2023.
I don't live in an NHL city, but I live equidistant to three different NHL cities... makes it nice for choosing games but you have to make a day of it
I do too, I live in London which is right in between Toronto, Detroit and Buffalo.
The Wings "new" arena holds less people than the Joe did .
And it's personally a worse experience, at least in the upper bowl. The Joe had a great upper bowl, while some of the upper bowl seats in LCA are so bad they aren't even worth it.
You have to look at seating capacity for the teams rinks they are not all the same so some may be a sell out but others may not but the smaller arenas compared to larger ones etc
It would be interesting to see it as a standardized percentage.
Yes, Edmontons attendance went up from 10 years ago due to a move to new Rogers Place arena.
keep in mind how many seats are in an arena. That matters. The more seats the more fans. CBJ holds 18k meanwhile NJs holds 16.5k so
We used to get panthers season tickets for so cheap. I remember looking at certain sections thinking that they probably just keep that area closed for some reason when i was younger. So happy the team is doing so much better. The owners the past few years finally started advertisements around the tri county area and have completely turned the team around.
Jets fan here... and I'm one of the people who put my money where my fandom is and bought 1/4 seasons. Have attended 5 games so far this year and 3 of them were sellouts at 15,235 so our numbers are way better than they were this time last year. I did calculations for all the teams and divided current attendance from attendance a decade ago and we are in the mushy middle for attendance at 91% capacity. I noticed Calgary's numbers are very similar to ours at around 93% of where they were 10 years ago and there were quite a few other markets that were lower in percentage than Winnipeg attendance. So all of that is very encouraging and I'll keep buying as often as I can.
I will add that corporate support in Winnipeg is a paltry 14% while a team like Edmonton has over 40% corporate support in recent years. Perhaps if owners allowed shares of the teams people with money could buy shares and help support the teams that way. Just a thought anyway.
Thanks Shannon for this. Last I heard from Bettman when he was asked about concerns about Ottawa and Winnipeg he said he had no concerns with either market, that there was stable ownership and good fan support for both teams. That's what I wanted to hear.
You are absolutely right: corporate support in Winnipeg is pitiful. TNSE keeps threatening individual ticket holders when they should be targeting corporate clients.
As well, the big attendance arenas have much larger cities, in general. The island of Montreal: 3 million plus. So in terms of demographics, seems to me Jets fans are pretty alright and loyal.
@@kimsawchuk69 THERE ARE NO CORPORATE clients. It is a well known fact and stated in the Athletic article about the team that Winnipeg by far is the market with the fewest large companies.
Will in 2027 that would change for Flames as the Scotia Place which is the new arena is. That is going to be less than the Saddledome. 18,400 than 19,289. So the average for this season would be in percent higher.
Should have had the seating capacity of the arenas as well.
A video showing what the attendance is when certain road teams show up in town would be cool. Something showing how some teams are must watch.
The difference in Florida is crazy. Went to a Panthers game in about 2010, just happen to be in Florida when the flyers were there. Really nice arena with more flyers fans than Panthers fans. Nice to see the turn around.
Oh yeah. The difference is wild. I love to see it. We got crapped on for 2 decades for having a low attendance rate and now we fill out almost every seat.
Winning cures everything.
2:10 This was a missed opportunity to say that not long ago Hurricanes announcers could be heard screaming "PLEASE COME TO OUR GAMES!!!"
One thing to note about Utah's games, Utah has actually been averaging close to 15k a game, but they are only counting the unobscured seats towards attendance. The arena in its current configuration can hold over 16k. And it has a few times already. The attendance numbers are misleading. But those numbers will change once the adjustments to seating are made as you said.
It doesn't matter if we're winning the Cup or rebuilding. We will always be here to support our team. Because this is what true fans do.
GO HABS GO
boy, I wish Montreal would be in the battle for the Cup with consistency again. It would be great for hockey overall.
I'm from Brasil, and their street party in 2021 made me remember why Montreal is the only "latin" city in the league.
Latin: in the sense that Quebec speaks french, a language that has it's roots in the latin language.
Watching this video from the Bell Center waiting for the game to begin. Go habs!
In the case of our Habs, we know they only need a few more pieces to get back to the playoffs.
The owners love to hear that
That is what true suckers do and the owner thanks you for your support while he makes multi million deposits into his bank accounts.
St. Louis did lots of renovation to their arena that got rid of a lot of seats over the past 8 years or so….would explain the lower fan attendance
Just for reference, top 5 attendance numbers in Europe last season:
- Cologne 16,993
- Bern 15,540
- Berlin 13,804
- Saint Petersburg 13,332
- Minsk 12,143
generally smaller arenas too. Cologne and Bern are the biggest in Europe
When Montreal is in the playoff hunt, I've known many people who chose to go to 4-5 games at 200$ish per ticket INSTEAD of a carribean vacation... And they REALLY wanted that vacation to thaw out for a week in winter. Ticket price to average/median income ratio is crazy high
Just a correction. NJ Devils play in the Prudential Center in downtown Newark near the train station. Not in the Meadowlands.
Listen to the report again -- he commented that when the Devils first moved to New Jersey (and played in the the Meadowlands) there were concerns of the long-term stability of the franchise.
That's a lot of great research and it's quite a relevant topic. Thank you!!!
You should have put in what % of seats are selling. Minnesota is "down" but thats because 10 years ago they were at like 109% capacity and now they're sitting around 103%, they still sell out every game
They might sell less tickets than 10 years ago too.
They also cut capacity back in 2012. It used to be 18,064 seats and now its 17,954. Idk what they even did that caused them to lose seats lol
Same with the Devils, smaller arena so smaller crowd, but the percentages have been good.
@@JarradBruessel32 I can't speak to that one in particular, but I know the Sharks made a "premium lounge" area that cut out seven suites total and three rows in one or two sections and cut the capacity from 17,562 to 17,435.
Before you say it, I'm aware that, aside from special occasions like the Joe Thornton retirement night, it's been awhile since the Sharks had any concerns about their capacity (though the arena's had plenty of sellouts for concerts and whatnot in that time). For awhile in the 2010s they had a several year long sellout streak going, though, and hopefully it starts filling up again soon as the team improves.
Team revenue is also being overlooked.
Besides adding info on the various arenas’ capacities, it would be interesting to know what % of the attendance is season ticket holders.
Merry Christmas Shannon, your Hockeyismas tree looks excellent, well done! I just also want to thank you for putting out such a great array of videos, you're the best! - Love Edmonton
Might be nice to note teams that had arena changes (ie Detroit moved from the Joe)
I think something like this deserves a deeper dive, maybe a series for the off-season. As others have pointed-out, these numbers don't reflect how full each arena is. In addition to that, I would personally like to see how much competition each market has to deal with when it comes to other sports. A few of these teams have to deal with other pro sports year-round, while some might only have to compete with college sports teams for a short period of time for attendance.
The size of the local market should be considered, too. A small market team that almost sells-out every game is more impressive (to me, anyway) than a big city team that can't fill the building.
With detroit they moved to a smaller arena. Lca has a smaller capacity than joe louis
As a Blues fan, you got me to dive into seating capacity changes at Enterprise Center (as currently known) over the years in question. In 2014, its hockey seating totaled 19,140; in 2019 it was 18,724; now it's 18,096 (all per Wikipedia) with general admission seating being swapped out for "theater boxes," etc. So percentage-wise, the Blues were at 96.8% 10 years ago, 92.4% five years ago, and back to 96.8% this year. It would be interesting to see how other teams fared as a percentage of capacity in addition to the raw numbers. Fun topic!
Fans in Buffalo are so pissed off with their team. One of their fans, Melody Martin, threw in the towel.I haven't heard anything from her in a long while
Yes, I think she left TH-cam and got a real job.
Those are interesting stats, but I recommend that you add arena capacity. Some areas have been renovated to add more suites, but general seating has been lost.
I remember going to the MTL forum and buying standup tickets at the door :)
proud to be part of the stars numbers! went to my first hockey game this season
Thanks for the video! I appreciate the info and your insights!
You need to take into account that stadiums have been rehabbed to less seats. The Blues have lowered the number of seats.
next time can u include arena capacity for each team as a comparison
Devils look light but they’re averaging close to capacity, and the crowds are better too. In the bad days, it was never as empty as it is in San Jose or Buffalo today, but we attracted some real bottom feeders. They’re still there, but there aren’t as many of them.
Cold weather teams need dedicated outdoor arenas or retractable dome. That will bring the fans. Every game be an outdoor game.
Thatd actually be sick. Itd bring in tourism money too. Fans from around the league would show up to see outdoor games.
Vegas get a ton of opposing team fans, especially Canadian fans. They'll sell tickets no matter how good they are.
I think casinos/hotels have been bundling VGK tickets which helps.
Chicago is crazy expensive and getting in and around the city is an absolute pain. Just went to the recent game vs. Islanders, and had a great time, but will not go to anymore this season. Too expensive.
a lot of standing room only seems to have been replaced with VIP lounges, too. so these amenities may have been repurposed which varies per venue
NJ's issue was, and still is albeit not as great, being in the shadow of the NY market. The Rangers have always had a large fan base, so 99% of NJ hockey fans were Rangers fans and Flyers fans. Its been a very slow growth, but the Devils have developed a very faithful and strong following.
I am proud to say I grew up in a Rangers household but chose the Devils as my team
@SpeedyyQ Good for you!! Must drive your family nuts 🤣
It would help if you had an asterisk beside the teams that changed buildings. For instance, Edmonton went from Northlands to Rogers Place and the 10-year-old attendance number represents a sell-out at that venue.
Kings games mostly have empty lower bowl seats. There are so many corporate seats that never get filled, even when games sell out.
With regards to Columbus, they are by far the most entertaining NHL games I've been to in a long while. The venue is nice and the fanbase is great. There are a lot of away team ticket sales as well.
We also have a Toronto-like level of hope when we hit a streak 😆
1:35 yes ticket sales vs ass in seats is different..the correct way is ticket sales not attendance
All the naysayers need to remember that Winnipeg has an owner with nearly as much money as the rest of the owners combined. He's fine with the tax write off.
Those naysaying losers see only what they want to see.
Jets have never lost money. No tax write off
Edmonton also has a reasonably new arena
The official capacity for Xcel Energy Center (Minnesota Wild) is 17,954, and every game sells out. The only explanation for lower attendance I can think of is fewer standing room tickets.
If you want to fill in seats in the tri county area you’ve got to put out a quality product. There are major events going on every week in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca and West Palm so if you have a bad product people are not going to spend money to come watch when there’s a lot of other stuff going on. This ownership group and FO understand that more than anyone and their commitment towards having a stellar on ice product has been phenomenal
It is hard to grasp what goes on here without knowing the size of the venues they play in.
I bet many of teams are at or near 100% capacity. The difference in numbers between many of these teams is simply the difference in their arenas.
Prudential is around 16,500, so they are always near capacity.
@thehockeyguy The Oilers moved 9 years ago from Recall Place to Rogers Place.
Recall "only" provided 16839 seats while Rogers Place now offers 18347.
Also, because my Ducks are so bad, it's incredibly easy to buy a ticket to the upper levels and then go down to seats near the ice during the end of the 1st period.
That's crazy. I'm writing an essay about exactly this; due on Monday.
As a Detroit fan I love to see OTT and CHI outing themselves as the biggest fair weather fans on the board.
This pretty much shows that there are no bad markets in the NHL. I think Arizona was the worst along with my location in South Florida. But winning, shows that the worst locations will sell out if they win.
It would nice to know the building capacity and average ticket price, or ticket price range in each building.
The misleading thing for our Sabres.....over 60-70% of the arena these days is non-Sabres fans and usually we are overrun by opposing fans. But in a way...we don't care. MTL and Toronto is they come to town it is a home game for them with 80% of their fans.
Sabres fans know not to go to the games these days anymore as it is cheaper to just sell your season tickets or others to opposing fans. The team has basically lost the fan experience over the last 15 years. Not be surprising with whatever attendance is left if the team is sold by the NHL and moved.
Sure hope not. I love going to Buffalo to watch the games. Much cheaper and easier to head south of the border
@Jwelly963 hehe my point exactly. You guys mostly go to our arena for the cheaper tickets. Hehe I think at this point you guys are more so funding and keeping us in Buffalo right now. XD
Hence why when they allowed fans back in arenas after the pandemic but canada was still doing restrictions and you couldn't get across the border as easily attendance was so abysmal for buffalo. No Canadians were going to the games to watch their teams play buffalo
Nice to see the habs in the top of something😂
I think when the salary cap was instituted, many fans, especially in Toronto, thought that ticket prices would drop. Sadly, that never really happened and the average Joe can’t afford decent seats to take his family to a game.
Vegas capacity is 17,500. They were selling practically every game in the first few seasons out plus standing room. Ow they are “only” 100% seating capacity, not doing standing room it seems.
watching games on tv and seeing a ton of empty seats at various arenas i would've thought attendance was down. Thought maybe it was the economy.
great video hockey guy
I agree; Vegas has never really been tested with a terrible team. On the other hand, it does have the advantage of being a popular tourist destination in a warm weather state. A few times in the first season (notably against Chicago and Winnipeg) maybe 35 to 40% of the seats seemed to be occupied by visiting fans. It's never been that heavy since, but it does provide a bit of stability.
Safe to say the celebrini effect brought me to 5 sharks games this year. plan on going to more lol
If I was in the SJ area, I'd definitely take in Sharks games. It's a fun team to watch with the youngster Celibrini and the other veteran players helping him be at his best every game.
Surprised you didnt mention some teams have a bew stadium which is a big factor.
Kings games I went to this season:
Vegas, noticeable empty seats because the World Series. Riot cops at exits after game ordering fans to head home, traffic being redirected, could see some people not wanting to be in that hassle (reports of mayhem was minimal compared to past) along with preferring to watch the Dodgers clinch a championship. Some Vegas fans, not as many as years before.
Vancouver, pretty much full in comparison; the luxury dining booth to watch games (special sections on suites level) above and behind us was empty but had its dinnerware spread on display for mere mortals to inspect ($150 seats on StubHub vs. Dallas this week, but expect to add meals and drinks). Canucks fans not as numerous in past decades; been to all three California arenas and Canucks fans can be numerous.
Bill from Vancouver died a couple years ago. It was sad.
These numbers don't provide a ton of context. Seating capacity can change up or down based on renovations. Xcel Energy Center is top 4 in capacity this year so far at over 100%. I don't think attendance is down based on what's sold/reported currently compared to 10 years ago.
Exactly. A quick check of the Ex’s seating changing seating capacity over the years tells you the numbers aren’t down.
It always baffled me how Sabres fans are still going to games when the team shows no signs of progression for a decade and a half. Pegula’s gotta look at this and say, “Maybe this needs some work to get fans back.” Knowing our luck, he’ll probably just plant palm trees outside KeyBank Center. Ah the suffering never ends.
It isn't mostly Sabres fans. People that go there and many of us watch know it is the opposing fans that are usually there more. It is a cheap ticket for the better teams that are more priced out in their arena.
@ Surprising that Winnipeg doesn’t sell more tickets when they actually have a fantastic team there. I guess it is pricing based on what I hear from Jets fans.
@@PigeonholePrinciple small market (pop. 850,000), smaller than average venue, and not a ton of corporate support. Canadians are taxed to the hilt right now, so less people have the excess cash to shell out to see a game live.
@@PigeonholePrinciple The Jets sold out when the team wasn't making the playoffs. It's obviously not the team. It's the economy.
Move 'em to Atlanta and rebrand them the Thrashers.
As a Panthers fan, I wouldn't trade the cup or current success for the world, but tickets have gotten expensive enough now that it's hard to make the trip to South Florida. Used to make 6 games or so per year.
Main takeaway for me: winning sells
Great video 👌
That's why I can't get a decent priced ticket at a MTL game, it's always full.
In 2022-2023 Florida Panthers attendance was 1682 (26th). So, after Florida went to the Stanley Cup finals, many jumped in the bandwaggon :P.
No bandwagons down here. We are all native south Floridians and have always supported.
Winning cures all ills in the sports world. For the most part...Shannon, as an addendum to this video, and to get a more complete financial picture, you should do videos about each team's TV and streaming revenues, merch sales, concession sales, parking revenues, luxury boxes, etc., since these play a large part in the kind of team each franchise can put on the ice to be competitive. Salary caps are great - at least for fans and the league as a whole - but there are a lot more nuanced aspects to team revenues than are readily apparent. It's not just ticket sales...Honestly I don't know how much of this data is available, but it would be awesome to have more puzzle pieces...Interesting Utah and Winnipeg numbers...
You should have done this by % of building capacity instead of raw tickets
I still hear Tampa's attendance was bad in 2009. Well yes it was the city and state was devastated by the recession. Gotta give alot of credit to Vinik and his commitment to the community.
Cleveland in the AHL average is 10,578. They could compete with any team in the 3rd column
I was in Nashville in the fall and I was taking to a local. He said that he always picking up tickets for $10 ua. Those were standing tickets. I have to say that his ticket had a better view than my upper deck ticket that cost me $60 plus.
Apparently Bell Centre lost like 160 seats last decade, and now the max capacity is 21,105. Since the average attendance is 1 higher at 21,106 there is one extra spectator illegally for every game :)
Not an Oilers fan but it's important to point out that the reason the numbers are different than 10 years ago is because the Rogers Centre was not open then. Same thing with a couple of the other teams ... capacity is different (even in the same Arena). More research on these numbers and better detail provided would have been appreciated. Nonetheless ... always enjoy your videos!
This is the first time in 25 years I am not going to a Buffalo game. Price of beer has taken the fun out of going.
Top 10 in attendance now. Praise God.
Omg it’s amazing to see.
I've been to one game this year and maybe might afford to go to one more.
I was not expecting the numbers for the Wild. I had guessed that with Kaprizov, their attendance would be up.
Timberwolves not being terrible have eaten into those dollars.
@@bobmularky7456 True - I forget about them.
@@PuckDropCards smaller arena capacity than used to be and less standing room as well. Plus some people got pissy the wild are what they call "woke" and stopped watching the team.
Going to 6 jets games this year. Went to 4 last year. For me the average cost of going to a game comes out to around $200cdn with ticket, drinks/food, parking/fuel. I can see why many dont want to spend that kimd of money when you can see the game from home
It would be interesting to do a list of the most dedicated NHL fan bases. Idk how that would be calculated but I always wonder which cities have the most dedicated fans who go to games because they love hockey, not just because the team is on a hot streak.
A drive around NHL cities is a great way to gauge support for their NHL team. License plate holders, personalized license plates, window decals in cars, business' signage.
A couple years back, Sean, THG, made note that the support VGK gets is impressive and very visible driving around the valley.
He noted the license plates, business signage, hats, merchandise ,etc... is all over the entire Vegas Valley.
Sean mentioned that the support VGK gets that he observed just driving around was more impressive than for the Vancouver Cunucks.
I am from Minnesota. I agree. The support that VGK gets is impressive. Anybody who drives around that community cannot miss the huge support of VGK.
The ownership of VGK was in that community two years before Vegas got an expansion team. Bill Foley's message to the Valley was he is dedicated to put winning/competitive teams on the ice. His philosophy is always being competitive. He also invests directly in the community. Still does. Foley also used no public tax dollars. That is a huge plus vs many owners of sports teams that always ask for public money for stadiums, arenas, and lobby local politicians for special tax zones, etc... Not VGK/Bill Foley.
VGK is much more respected and supported and loved than the Las Vegas Raiders. The Raiders are impactful with lots of fans as all NFL teams have. But the NHL VGK have the hearts of the Las Vegas Valley, not the NFL Raiders as the NHL Raiders are viewed as carpet bagger's by many and also took about 700 million dollars of tax payers money help with Stadium.
The locales in the Valley see VGK as their own, just like Bill Foley told them before he even was granted a NHL expansion team.
Many shallow thinkers from other NHL fan bases don't grasp the support that VGK has from every nook and cranny of the entire Las Vegas Valley.
As a Canes fan I don't understand why these bigger cities have such tiny arenas still.
Just want to quickly mention the Kings attendance this year is impacted by the Dodgers world series run. Ever since it's ended, most games have been sellouts.
That CHRISTMAS TREE with the NHL team ornaments is just pure EPIC!
for detroit LCA replaced Joe louis in 2017. i think capacity at JLA was higher tha the new LCA. if you make this chart a good idea would be good to know if a new arena is involved and the difference in capacity. new LCA sellout is 19515 and JLA as 20,027. basically all wings games are sellouts.