@@finbridgesgranted, but if 90percent of them were at the time then it was a thing of the time, as long as they can't keep any world records or it has no effect on records where doping was not happening
The problem with lance Armstrong was his personality. He tried to destroy people if they talked about it. Look what he did to Lemond. As far as stripping of his wins they should have done it to everyone that won in that era. Doping was at it's peek then.
Unfortunately doping is still around... Nobody want's to see 10-30% decrease in the average speeds in the professional cycling events, so they just have to keep doing it smarter... That said, it's possible that at some point we might have some more confessions and stories from the current era down the line... :)
I would agree to an extent his personality and just being blunt and crude at times didn't help much, I would also say more like look what Lemond tried to do to him, that dude was relentless and INCREDIBLY jealous of someone else taking his "only American to win the tour" crown. I don't fault either one of them, I feel they both deserve their accomplishments, Lance's doping compared to other riders in his era, hell, even his direct competitors was pretty light, there were guys doing way worse during his reign and he still beat them, still out prepared and out rode them. Ffs it's not like the guy sat on a couch drinking beer all year than ran off full of drugs and won the tour, it was his only focus, his only goal each year, his preparation practices revolutionized the sport,. Was he an ass during the races? sure he was, he was cocky, brash, blunt, , "typical American" to all the euro snobs, but he was also beyond respectful of the tour traditions, the unwritten rules, he never took advantage of another gc rider's misfortune and he could have easily done so. I'm tired of the nonsense surrounding his wins, they dropped a planet on the guy, the others are now team directors or commentators or have some other gig they wouldn't have if not for their tour days and they're treated like what they did was nothing in comparison and that's epic bs.
@@joshwoodson1786 You Lance fanboys are always trying to say Greg did the same thing. But there is zero proof that he did dope. In fact, he left a team during his career because they were starting a doping program. People coming at Greg over Lance's disgrace need to grow up. People knew the team of Lance was doping and were silenced because of the fantasy of him winning after cancer. The U.S. media also had a big hand in that silence too. Lance is trying to redeem himself now by admitting what he did to himself and others. And that's a good thing. But you fanboys dragging others without proof is just childish.
Just finished Himalayas. Si, Hank, and the production team have captured a truly astonishing journey. I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like. I wasn’t even there and I found myself emotionally overcome. I felt like I understood where Si was coming from. Magnificent piece. Thank you so much.
On the topic of "can't wait to dope". I was a member of a weightlifting club in Australia, one of our members was a national-level lifter at the time. He and his brother had come from an ex-Soviet country (one of the -stans) where they were on the high-performance weightlifting path. One day when we were talking about the latest doping scandal, he expressed disappointment about never finding his 'true potential' because he left [redacted]stan before he was old enough to get on the 'good stuff'. Just an interesting tidbit for ya! edit: this was around 2012 or so... when the Russians and other ex-soviet countries were dominating international weightlifting.
The triathlon joke is an old one and has been used to reference a number of animals. One of the oldest versions compares to a Hippo. The Hippo is a quicker swimmer and a quicker runner - good job it can't ride a bike........
Hey GCN, well done for bringing this subject back up and not letting it fall to the wayside. I noticed you kept the original Instagram post up as well, much to the chagrin of some users. I applaud the fact that you didn't take it down. As a society, I believe we're too quick to tell people they need to redact something because it was "wrong." No one can erase the past, accept that it happened, and move on. Coincidental that the same can be said about the main talking point here? I feel the same when it comes to athletes who dope as well. However, for all of those who are quick to completely write off someone who dopes, I would ask them if they've ever cut a corner. Ever walked across the edge of someones lawn instead of taking the corner, jay-walking, rolling a stop sign, etc. I understand these aren't apples-to-apples comparisons, but it's a slippery slope. People who live in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.
You do understand that the reaction of others, be it positive or negative, is also part of the whole "free speech" thing, right? And that "free speech" is not the same as freedom from consequence or critique? I'd be much more impressed if GCN had the courage to explore the veracity of the current peloton, instead of the safe option of relitigating past cases already won.
@@space.youtubeliterally no one is saying you can't have a dumb take. They're saying, stop telling others what they're allowed to think. If you don't like something move on, or hell block the post if you're that upset. Trying to get someone to "take it back" is what children do lol.
@@dylan-5287 "literally no one is saying you can't have a dumb take. They're saying, stop telling others what they're allowed to think." It's like you have no sense of irony. 🤣
The saddest thing about the doping scandals for our sport is that the general populace (at least here in the states, maybe not Europe/elsewhere at all?) then tends to think that the PEDs are actually pedaling the bike for these pros, and that NO work, or long hard training whatsoever is involved in their power, speed and success. WE all know that they STILL had to work their azzes off to be at that level regardless, they just had a totally unfair, 'over the top' advantage over those who did not dope.
Could you do an episode on the Armstrong era, shedding some light on the doping situation, because if the whole Peleton were doping, why is he so vilified?
@@cliveb15 the US Postal system was more akin to Soviet era industrial doping, so it was the scale and brazenness of it. The unrepentance of his offending, and then the ugly bullying, anyone who tried to expose him was destroyed from a soigneur to the first American TdF winner who lost his bike business after being attacked by Lance.
Armstrong was a vindictive tyrant. He was a very nasty person. He did his best to destroy the career of any cyclist that criticized him and threatened to expose his deception. Armstrong did so much damage in cycling that his legacy still pervades cycling. By the way, I am always glad when Simon and Dan are both hosting the GCN Show. The other hosts are outstanding, but, Simon and Dan are legends.
Yet most riders in the sport have massive respect for him even if they don’t openly talk about it, you can see that by how many current and ex pro’s have appeared on his Wedu TH-cam channel.
@@Mockle07 i would say alot more do than don’t, you don’t have to respect him as a man to respect him as a cyclist. I would lay a bet if you ask the majority of riders from his generation if he should have kept his wins most would agree.
As to the mention of Ragbrai in the Cycling Shorts segment, I completed the entire route this year. It was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed meeting riders from all over the US and several other countries. It was much hotter and more humid than any riding I have ever done, and the high temps and poor sleep in the tent at night made it hard to recover overnight. I cannot fathom how people could drink and party and attend the concerts at night. I only had energy left to find a shower, get some food, and locate somewhere shady to rest until the sun went down. A highlight for me was combining day 6 and 7 for an epic single day effort, and getting caught in the tornado warning just a few miles from where my car was parked. After taking shelter in a Subway restaurant bathroom, I eventually secured a ride to the parking garage with a family who happened to pull over to check the weather before proceeding. They brought me to my car, refused to take any payment, and even gave me a jar of canned green beans. "Iowa nice" is real.
Cycling was only one of many sport where the athletes were confronted with a culture of cheating if you had any hope of competing. Baseball, American football, track and field, body building, power lifting, ... I played high school football 1969-1973 and there was steroid abuse among the top level college recruits. It's hard for me to judge people too harshly during those times with the pressure and culture they had to deal with. As it is said, don't judge until you have walked in their shoes.
@@aliensarereal7832 cycling fans or people who get into it at a later age tend to be people who were not athletic themselves. It’s a very mainstream, dorky fan base. I don’t mean this in a mean spirited way because I’m kinda a part of it myself, but that’s a big part of the pearl clutching attitude you see in cycling.
@@HkFinn83 you're right. I guess I'm tainted because I've always been involved in sports. Never been a fan of anyone or anything. Just do my own thing and try to enjoy it. Most people need to be a part of something. I've never had that need.
Exactly. Some people speak as though there were no true victims because "the whole peloton was doping". Even if that's true it just means the victims are the fair competitors who never made it into the peloton.
@@graemehillfrol all of those that weren't prepared to 'do what it takes'...how mant really would have made it to the top 0,1% of the sport? If you had what it takes in that era, you wouldn't have a second tought, save the extremely puritanical exception. This was the sport. Accept it, learn from it and move on. Anyone claiming the winners from this era were not purebread tallent is just using mistakes made FOR them as an excuse.
I'd like to hear more about Merckx and his doping. He's regularly touted as the greatest cyclist of all time but was he cheating the rest of the pack the entire time? How does that add up?
The doping back in the Merckx years was much less effective. Oxygen vector doping (EPO and sophisticated blood doping) were super effective and perverted the sport more. So the doping from the Indurain-ONCE-Riis-Ulliich-Armstrong years were the grossest of all.
@@john-tomlinson YES, THIS. The amphetamines, and some of the painkillers used at that time could have actually HURT their performances, let alone KILLED them (i.e. Tommy Simpson) in that era. Even blood doping/packing was in the experimental stage back then, except for maybe a few cross-country skiers, and Finnish distance runners. Most likely why King Eddy is generally given a pass for his (few caught/known) indiscretions. EPO and blood packing (unless done to excess, and without medical supervision/monitoring when they will be DEADLY), and even HGH/other anabolics do actually help with O2 uptake, and helpful muscle mass, and therefore the ability to generate more power on the bike.
I would love to see a behind the scenes of being a GCN presenter illustrating the process of filming, choosing video topics, work/family balance and so on.
@@gcn I know time is limited so jump cutting to different presenters who are doing different things. Follow one presenter who is on a location shoot and everything that goes into that. Then cut to another who is trying to balance home life with work and how that looks for both the presenter and their family. Next, the process of picking video topics, the logistics involved, timeframes and so on. The workings of GCN HQ and what it really takes to make everything happen. No doubt the process is much more involved than any of us are aware.
@@gcn It's a very different form a filming and content - perhaps a new BTS channel that allows viewers to feel like they are getting a peak behind the curtain?
It's a good thing for James that he was with Simon on this one adventure. Imagine if he had gone there with his brother from another mother, Blake! They would've attempted to cycle down K2, those 2!
Hahahah yes that could have been a recipe for disaster! The dynamic duo took a trip to the alps recently... turn your notifications on and you'll get a little treat later this week 🔔
The Himalayas film was just mesmerising - Simon and Hank were the most wonderful duo to showcase the country of Nepal; its culture and spectacular scenery. I particularly liked fun facts and fossil hunting - excellent work GCN!
@@gcnI genuinely would watch Simon and Hank (all the team really) just go and do their big shop on a cargo bike! But they might find the Pacific Coast of America or Japan more exciting! Biking through Japan would be awesome, I know Chris Broad (abroad in Japan channel) has cycled it before as an amateur and that was great to watch. He could show them the sites and get some spectacular food.
GCN has done a good job on discussing doping in cycling that always come up whenever there is a great performance. Unlike the Chris miller cycling channel that spent solid 20mins discussing various way Jonas must have doped /cheated and jumbo have to come out and show all their data to explain the TT performance 😂
Those who admitted doping when everyone was doing it, and made a good clean image of themselves afterwards, will still be respected by most. Those who are coerced into telling the truth, and then attack anyone who criticizes them whilst facing that initial scrutiny will always be demonized by most people. There is a reason Armstrong is nicknamed Voldemort and Vaughters is forgiven. Those who ask forgiveness and make the most of their second chance to clean up will always be seen in a better light than those who are in denial and build a bigger empire on their sporting fraud and threaten anyone who tried to take them down.
Not to mention Armstrong to this day doesn't feel an ounce of shame for anything he did. He still, to this day, treats Andreux, Hamilton and Lemond as villains and traitors on his podcast. Their is a huge difference between him and the other EPO era riders who got caught. Pantani, Riis, Ulrich etc... All deserve respect because they repented and suffered enormously from the consequences. At the end of the day, EPO wasn't pedalling the bike for them...
@@gcn Absolutely. He has earned his second chance and is taking the opportunity to do good. The same can be said forContador et al. The same could have happened to Il Pirata had he not been made a scapegoat by the rest of the cycling world and succumbed to addiction in what was such a tragic downfall. Armstrong blew it by giving everyone bad lip service and being threatening after revealing the truth and not being apologetic.
Just watched Himalayas and I watched it on the big screen and it is a proper epic, hats off to everyone that helped make it, very very good. Question for both Si and Hank how did you handle coming home after that adventure? Sometimes that is the hardest part, coming back to your regular life.
@@gcn Yes, but I was celebrating the athletic 'excellence' of US Postal and Armstrong without realising they were just doping more effectively than the others.
I remember reading Cycling Weekly in the early nineties….. seem to remember a lot of young continental pros dying in there sleep……. Professional Cycling has a lot to answer for! They certainly didn’t get there own house in order
The logic was; "If a little bit of EPO is good, a shit ton must be better!", and with no competent medical monitoring in sight, those neo-pros paid the ultimate price. (Although any truly moral, taking their oaths seriously, not corrupt, medical professional would have assiduously tried to keep them from doping in the first place. 😉)
I'm in my 40s and grew up during the height of doping in cycling. I tend to have the view that if you didn't do it at the time, you couldn't be competitive. Everyone was doing it. The bosses were pushing it and, ultimately, it's the managers and leaders who are at fault. We don't like Lance because he's a dick, not because he doped
there's a quote from the final Avengers movie that goes something like 'I don't judge people by their worst moments'. However long a rider doped, it's only one part of their story. I think it comes down to what kind of a human being the rider is overall. There are clean riders disliked by fans and there are dopers loved. An unlikable person who also doped, now that's a villain.
@@SayWhatNow666 That's what you took from the comment? Here, let me help. All dopers are dopers, but not all dopers are pricks. Do you understand the distinction? Or are you one of those insufferable infallible knobs who falsely believes themselves to be perfect to justify looking down on everyone else?
I'm half Danish (half British) and as kids we used to spend our summers in Denmark. We were there for the summer of 1996 and Bjarne Riis was celebrated as a national hero for his victory. T-shirts were handed out to kids and there was a general feel-good vibe of celebration just walking round Danish towns. Then as a teenager, the Livestrong wristbands were the thing to have as part of Lance Armstrong's amazing story. In both instances I felt incredibly let down to find out the truth behind their behaviour and achievements. Ultimately this left me untrusting and disinterested in road racing for 10-15 years and it's only recently that I've been tempted back into following it. So for me there is no grey here. Anyone who cheats jeopardizes the integrity of the sport and risks the sports viability for all involved as it limits the sports ability to attract as wide an audience as possible and therefore sponsorship etc.
I agree. I'm Danish and was super disappointed by Riis, cheating. He wasn't a very sympathetic person to begin with and to learn he was a cheater didn't help. Actually I haven't watched TDF, since.... until 2022 , where Vingegaard won. Danm I hope he's clean. But anyway Jonas is a super good guy. So very sympathetic.
4:00 a right apology that deserves to be accepted, Dan. You correctly pointed out why that specific phrase was out of place: Pantani was definitely part of that system but also, after getting caught, he was spitted out and treated like an outcast, leading to that sad death, while other people from that era are i still in the sport as DSs, executives or commentators with no backlash whatsoever (at least Armstrong experienced a bit of a backlash even if he's still doing pretty good for himself) PS I know it's just a detail but he wasn't thrown out of the 1999 Giro for a positivity butfor health reasons
At that time there was no test for EPO, but having an unnatural 50+% haematocrit level was pretty much a symptom. Riders were made to take 2 weeks off for "health reasons", with the tacit understanding that it was a bust. Years later it was proven in a court of law that La Camorra bet against him and when he wouldn't lose on the road, they tampered with his tests to get him thrown out of the Giro.
@@manuel7102 He was doping throughout his career, he was a client of Francesco Conconi in the 1990s and Eufemiano Fuentes later. There is documentation that he was administered more than 40,000 doses of EPO. But the fact that this conspiracy was proven in a court of law nudges me into "it's probably true".
Thank you for the well reasoned and thoughtful discussion of doping in bicycle racing. At least cycling has made an effort to face up to its disagreeable past, whereas other sports, likely equally drug infused, have managed to just sweep it under the proverbial rug.
According to Tyler Hamilton's book the US Postal team was seriously doping, blood transfusions, EPO, cortisone. Michele Ferrari was their king of doping doctors.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 Lance’s cancer was also in his brain, lungs, and other organs. If your premise were true, there’s be a high incidence of cancer in the peloton, which I don’t believe is the case. Unless you believe Lance is the only cyclist to have ever doped.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 He had testicular cancer BEFORE the whole major doping scandal during his peak, although many believe that yes, he was doping at a much lower level even before discovering he had cancer, from his Worlds win forward. The corticosteroids are really the only PED they used that could have been a possible catalyst for, or carcinogenic cause of testicular (or any other) cancer.
@@MacThreinfhir That's because it metasticised to those areas/organs from his testicles. But yes, MOST of what they were taking as PEDs is not considered to be carcinogenic, at all.
#Himalayas #Hank #Simon. Watched the Himalayas on GCN+ and this is why I subscribe. What a wonderful adventure. Had everything from action, adventure, bromance, and some emotional moments. Huge respect for Hank and Simon. Well done. Such an Epic ride!!!❤🤩
The problem with dopers, especially fron the 90s, is that I stopped distinguishing between "caught" and "not caught". After operation puerto, I did not watch pro cycling for over a decade. Nobody from that era can be a hero any more. It would be good if you made a documentation about riders who took the moral decission and did not have the career they coud have had.
Sadly, I STILL view all results from even supposedly squeaky clean TODAY through a jaundiced eye, due to the past. ☹ I just know that even if I were still young, and in the best condition of my life, and took a boatload of PEDs, I could not finish within 40 minutes of those top riders on a mountain stage, or 10 minutes of them on a TT stage. 😉
Absolutely loved the Himalayas film! What an amazing adventure! Also, well done mixing planning/spontaneity/laughs/tears/hot/cold/etc this really looked like a cycling dream trip and dream destination!
I think Lance has been, if not exactly apologetic, candid over the last 15 or so years. He’s a self admitted a-hole and is seemingly ok with people not liking him. He also admits that everything he did was self inflicted and he only has himself to blame. His insights into today’s teams, riders and peloton are still interesting and informative.
It speaks volumes about the world right now that admitting you're a piece of sh*t is considered an acceptable character trait. He is an AWFUL human being, the end.
I just can't watch him. I was a huge fan - I remember watching his victory on Sestriere. That year Bicycling did a special issue for subscribers with the iconic image of him crossing the line with no other text on the cover. I saved that cover. My kid dressed as Lance for his first real Halloween. So I was heartbroken when the extent of his doping became apparent, but even worse (to me) is how far he went to punish anyone who spoke out about doping, especially his involvement in it. He ruined lives. Yes, he has tried to make some amends and has been candid with what he did, but I just can't watch him. It's probably as much about me as it was him.
@@whatwelearnedyour definition of awful is pretty low. I didn’t realize raising money for cancer research and actually affecting people’s lives was an represented something awful.
@@Civera89 Ruining people's lives to perpetuate your massive lies is awful, lying to sick children who idolise you is awful, and going on Oprah like a bitch to confess is awful. Lots of people so things for charity. Armstrong's character has long been clear.
TLDR As Italian, ok, fine, it's good that you an approach where you do analyze performances in an unbiased way. Considering all factors, even doping. For sure, Pantani was part of that system. Probably he doped. I was just at best a kid during that era, but we all got to know that cycling had this dark era. Also because of your GCN+ documentaries you do, but also from a lot more of sources. And there's definitely no language bias nor nationality bias here. We got the point, even us, Italian fans, and italian cycling online communities, where your previous video was shared A LOT. And you don't want to get to know that 90+% of the comments were furious. As Italian I can certainly state that nobody likes Riccò, Sella or other dopers from that era. And previous ones too. Moser, another famous doped, etc I am still terrified to read so many compatriot acting like idiots to be fan of Cipollini despite clearly he was part of Eufemiano Fuentes' doping machine in his 2002 year. And especially, considering his current justice issues for Domestic Violence. But yeah, it's all subjective. I got it, we all got it. Still, I wouldn't have made a joke or whatever that sort of complex Brit Dark Humour thing you used, about Marco Pantani, regardless of what you subjectively retain him and his career. C'mon guys, he's literally not here any longer to defend himself already for 20 years. His mum is in her 70-80 years old still alive, and it has been 20 years defending the image of Marco, often desperately, against a Rubber Wall of lies, plots and a ton of shit. Literally yesterday in the Italian parliament, Deputee Marco Berruto denounced in Parliament, the fact that tons of Sport Federations in Italy are like run by a feudal system, and one of those federations is the cycling one. Just to giving the point that probably the Cycling Italian System is currently crooked and back then it was maybe much, much worse. The whole scandal happened in Madonna di Campiglio 1999's stage in Giro, is still debated today as an organized plot by someone. Even Mafia criminals (!!!) testified in front of a Court about "him getting potentially screwed" by the whole system due to a series of bets. It's in Judicial Papers from Mafia Trials. To conclude: It's not about any longer about considering Marco Pantani as a hero. or whatever subjective opinion you have about it. It's just time to let his name Rest in Peace, for one last goddamn time, regardless of all of the opinions.
I really loved watching the Himalaya documentary. Being in the area myself 10 years ago - although on foot- I had a similar experience as Simon: Lagging behind my fellow trekkers in the fading light I sensed the insignificence and desolation of human existence in this vast grand landscape. Then entering the lodge and being back in the warmth of human company and good food brought tears to my eyes. Maybe its the altitud that makes even tough guys sentimental there :) Great film. Should be out for bigger audience.
lol, he "knew" Verbruggen and McQuaid, and how to exploit them to do his bidding. Funny how all his ex super domestique's, who left US Postal and Disco to become team leaders in their own right, all got done for doping? It's almost like the murican was protected while his biggest threats were targeted by UCI? 🤔
Everyone except me is over the moon about Vollering, a 26 year old, besting a 40 year old Annemiek. What everyone should be talking about is how in the hell Lotte Kopecky finished fifth on the Col du Tourmalet, the hardest climb in the Tours catalog of parcours.
Judging cyclists strictly on their personal use of drugs without considering the context of the culture at the time of their choice is questionable. This is similar to the current situation in American baseball where the players who have the most prominent records in the sport are excluded from the Hall of Fame, despite the sport not banning the use of the products they purportedly used at the time the records were set and not punishing them or others for their purported use.
People still don't understand sports, period. It is about money and the framework for substance policies is only strict enough to appease the fanbase and keep the money flowing. Marijuana use is performance enhancing in sprinting (Shacarri Richardson suspension), but essentially legal in the NFL now (so many, including brand selling stars were getting caught up). Generally, people are stupid and athletic bodies do enough to make sure athletes don't die and people spend their money on the sport.
I appreciate the honest conversation. I'm glad you called out Eddy Merckx for doping. No one ever discisses doping. I started watching bike racing during the Lance Era. I was crushed and pissed when Lance finally admitted to doping. I am still very skeptical of the extra human performances of the modern peleton, but I am starting to believe in their performance.
It's a tough topic to approach but we're glad you enjoyed our take! It can be heart breaking to hear of a doping scandal. Do you still enjoy watching the current pros? 🤔
Does it really change things for you that much? Certainly if one guy is doing something others don't have, that's one thing. But they're all in on this. It's top of the world racing. The bikes go through millions of dollars of engineering for the tiniest aero gains. Knowing they take performance enhancing supplements is different? Right now they absolutely have chemicals we've never heard of before to maximize performance. Men's cycling is 10x as big as women's, and the women are awesome athletes. No one wants good performance, they want top of the line. But then people seem personally offended at some things and not others. Strange situation all around.
@@dylan-5287 I love watching the women's racing. I think it is just as exciting as the men's sometimes even more exciting (i.e., this year's Paris-Roubaix). It does change things for me if I know someone has an unfair advantage over someone else. I think I will always be skeptical of some performances over others. I love riding my bike and I love watching others race their bikes so yeah...I will always watch bike racing.
@@gcn I absolutely love watching the current batch of pros especially the women's peloton. I also thank GCN+ for bringing me coverage of ALL racing men and women's.
Maybe only slightly related but I recently had a very difficult conversation with an ex-colleague who had a cancer backstory but without a sign of guilty conscience claimed to take EPO because his disease and therapy did impact his sporting performance but he still wanted to smash MTB trails. On one hand it just sucked it up quitely but on the other hand, I was just shocked how casually he talked about it. Then, he went on and spoke about a friend who also went for doping so that he could survive a half marathon which he promised to finish together with his girlfriend but didn't put in the effort for training. So, I think a big factor is how we perceive athletes and they slipped into doping. Just the extra push or a shameless shortcut? Anyway, I think both guys I was talking about are morons, a bit like Bradley Cooper in "Limitless".
Taking EPO without doing the training is to not understand what EPO does. Your "friend" is a moron. He'd have been better served taking amphetamines than EPO.
Amateurs doping so they can participate in big events is no big deal. It only becomes a problem if they are taking slots from competitors. There are limited opportunities or higher age-groups to get to Iron Man Hawaii for example.
If you're cheating at a single-player game, I don't care. When you start cheating in multiplayer, you're a wanker. Also if you brag about your performance while cheating in single player, you're also a wanker.
@@the_rzh It's easy. Accept your limits or push them out with hard work. Cheating is cheating, no matter the price money. Others work hard to qualify or for a podium finish, so that's as bad as cheating in professional sports - and even more lame if you fall for it for no reason other than selfishness.
Doping in cycling must be viewed as a cultural thing that became deeply embedded into the sport thanks to the actions of some people, in order for us to realize how harmful it was/is and how we go on about it. For me, the most vilified people should be those who perpetuated the idea that in order to enter this sport, you must dope, and in order to win, you must play the doping game (budget, access to illicit substances, doctors, corruption, silencing people) better than others. Which easily explains why Armstrong will always be the most hated man in cycling. Vaughters has done enough towards redemption I think, while others preferred to shut up or carry on with their implausible denials. At the same time, I find it preposterous that Vinokourov is still allowed anywhere near a cycling team. Also, it's easy to view Pantani as a tragic victim of this culture - because he certainly was one - and paint him as a sympathetic antihero, but at the same time he only seemed to feel sorry because he was caught and was generally angry and keen to make anti-doping seem like a bad thing, in an era where many people were dying because of banned substances while nobody seemed to care - and especially not the people winning thanks to them. Doesn't seem like a guy for us to be worshipping. At that time, if you spoke in favor of fighting doping, you were the black sheep of the peloton thanks to the people who were winning because of it. I prefer to respect people like Lemond who got in harms way trying to change that perspective. Finally, doping should not be normalized, but from the occasional stimulant in the 70's to EPO turning the sport into a total clownfest in the 90's there's some massive difference. So I guess some people will think that although Merckx doesn't have a spotless career, he didn't need doping to come across as a great cyclist. It wasn't like he was having trouble finishing Tour De France, then he returned right after surviving cancer to obliterate everybody.
@@Songbirdstress There's also the distinction I made between the 70's and the 90's there. He used amphetamines as others had done in the past. But whatever one might think about that (cheating is cheating etc) it's one thing to take something that makes you more alert and euphoric in order to deal with the pain and another to be on EPO and human growth hormone to induce physiological changes to your body. Fignon said that this idea revolted him and having seen the changes these substances brought to the sport into the early 90's and him leaving cycling, it's obvious that he was honest.
When I think of Marco what I see is a victim, a person who struggled with mental health issue, and who unfortunately had a very tragic ending. I can't help but feel empathy towards him and I think he'll always be loved by a lot cycling enthusiasts. Someone like Lance, on the other hand, comes off as an arrogant jerk who only confessed when the USADA had already been provided with enough information by Landis. I don't think he ever showed any signs of repent. With people like Valverde, if you watch the interviews and the Movistar Netflix series he seems to be a genuinely nice person and very respected in the peloton during his career. That's probably why people like him.
At the time I remarked on this, but it is rarely mentioned - in the Armstrong era AMGEN sponsored the Tour of California and other US races - they are one of the biggest producers of EPO!! It was staring us in the face all the time!!
I feel like GCN is the only TH-cam channel that hasn't touched the topic of the likelihood of that 7.6W/KG ride in the TT from Vingegaard being impossible clean. I've seen many established cycling channels take it into question but I feel like GCN with access to trainers and experts in the sports might be able to shed the best light on it. What kind of doping or peds they might have used or not to achieve 7.6w/kg for over half an hour.
9:38 The problem with that is that people invested in the sport have been saying, "there's no longer a doping culture; that was in the old days" continuously for the past thirty years.
As someone who's lost an SPD bolt at the trailhead of a fairly remote mountain bike ride, the braze on bolt working with an SPD cleat is - and more importantly would have been - an absolute hack. I needed to spend over an hour driving to the nearest bike shop, but I always carry spare cleats and bolts when I ride now regardless. Once bitten, twice shy and whatnot.
I never got why Indurain and Merckx are celebrated the way they are. Whether most riders were doping or not back then doesn't matter, race clean or stay home imo
@@randallflat2010 au contraire... Lemond started being a dick to LA after LA repeatedly shit all over Lemond. You'd do the same in the same circumstances, I"m sure.
So never mind that his achievements were based on doping, just like Lance? It's funny, I was just going to comment on Pantani's American apologists, who seem to most drive this bogus narrative. I understand that Pantani was charismatic and represented everything cool and European, but you have to ignore all the details to buy into this storyline.
I get what you’re saying and that’s an accurate assessment to make, however I Think Lance has a redemption arc. If you listened to his episode on Rogan, he, at the very least, knows he was wrong and an a-hole during his career. He comes off as someone who admits his awful behavior and genuinely wants to get better. But hey, then again, maybe it’s an act. He’s still one of my biggest inspirations athletically.
@@tannerslomko i agree with your point about armstrong and his rehabilitation, however i do have some difficulty with it. i was a fan of his bike riding but was unaware of what was taking place behind the scenes. we will never know if he is truely reformed, but the point he has made about other cheats being given a pass, almost celebrated, jan ulrich stands out, is very true.
@@percyveer2355 I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. I always thought the doping part wasn’t a huge deal since a significant amount of pro athletes do it. But when I found out about what he did politically it was pretty nasty.
As an American, it does somewhat bother me that Pantani is on a billboard going up classic climbs but you probably wouldn’t see an Armstrong one. Seems a bit inconsistent to me I guess to be okay with one and completely shun the other. (Even with the understanding that Armstrongs personality is much harder to accept). Like you all said, the level at which we feel defrauded can dictate it, but the subjectivity of that bothers me.
As a German, being somewhat "neutral" regarding those two, I agree with you: the same standards should be applied on everyone. Still: Lance was a Colditz hearted doping-mastermind, taking doping to another level of sophistication and professionality, also offending and playing rough with people close to him. However, I am impressed how openly, reflected and regretful he is looking on the subject today.
Armstrong made his team dope. He was incredibly abusive. I remember when the first soigneurs were speaking out, they were physically afraid. Armstrong isn't hated because he doped, he is hated because he treated people like shit.
There are too many variables to love or hate a doper. In Lance Armstrong's case, I like that he used his celebrity to spread awareness of cancer in men in sensitive areas. I work in a cancer center outside of Los Angeles, and can appreciate his resolve to tell men not to be embarrassed, to check themselves regularly, and seek medical attention if they feel something abnormal. It is possible to have a love/hate relationship with a celebrity. Yes, Lance was a doper (like so many others in the era), yes, he did horrible things, but he also did some good in his life.
Say what you will about Lance... but those were the best tours to watch since LeMond Hinault and Indian years. And this tour was pretty good, but the lance years were epic.
If by epic you mean boring, you're right. Apart from 2003, no one finished within 4:40. One guy winning at will and no one being able to do anything about it wasn't very interesting. An epic Tour needs at least 2 near equal competitors, not 1 guy dominating.
this episode was perfect for me. I had to go into the office and shred two boxes of documents a proper amount of distraction. Keep up the good work gentleman.
Some dopers made TV commercials talking about how clean they are. And attack anyone that questioned them or spoke out. And were part of high level corruption in the sport That's the difference in being a villain or not. It's easy to discern.
So awesome to see you guys shouting out RAGBRAI! I look forward to the year you send a couple people out to cover the week and see just how challenging it is to ride 500 miles with a constant buzz 😅🍻🤌
I don't care that they doped, I don't care that they lied about it (talking was, of course, impossible) but I hate how Armstrong treated people. That was unforgivable.
I was so pleased to hear that Mikael won the Orca, and that I didn't. I'd forgotten all about the competition, and earlier in the morning I splashed out nearly $700 buying a vintage Rotrax steel frame on eBay. Anyway, I've got a project for the winter.
You can still dope and be respected. When you don’t act like a clown and bury people no one will care if you doped as we all know no one can win the TDF without chemical assistance.
Whilst I agree with most of your statement the current peloton face so much more in the way of doping control and external scrutiny that it would be impossible for the whole WT to be involved in doping. No guarantee that there aren't individual riders doping but to suggest that it is a requirement to win a race is a stretch.
@@matt_acton-varian It is a requirement since no one on this planet can do it alone and even with a team helping you along. I am a big fan of pro cycling and a well seasoned rider and know exactly what it takes to race a bike. The level of fitness, age, technology and training is not the same as the 1970's where LEGS won the tour. Every major team is on hyperbaric tank training these days ( Froomes days where this accelerated). So EPO is not as popular now since it can be detected, but high altitude hyperbaric chamber sessions can not be detected and they do the same result as EPO which is to increase your hematocrit levels ( 48 acceptable for UCI standards. There is more technical cheating going on these days instead of straight up injecting concoctions. Radios, Aero frames, Power meters have changed the race methods. I don't like the new way teams are cycling there is no more surprise attacks now it looks like a mechanical race which is becoming boring to watch.
Using substances to enhance performance has always been part of cycling. I suspect it still is; non-the-less, I enjoy the sport and respect the riders for their abilities of endurance. During the Lance era; no winner was declared in his races, since all of the top finishers had questions around them. As I see it they were all racing on a level playing field, since many of the top racers doped. Mike
Doping destroyed Pantani, who would have been top if the sport was clean. Armstrong couldn't have competed with athletes of his level of not for the doping. One never recovered from the shame and one did all he could to destroy anybody that tried to out him.
I am sure the known dopers like Armstrong, Ullrich, Pantani and others would still have been on the top without doping, but just not as fast as they were; as Jens Voigt pointed out in an interview: "Epo does not turn a farm horse into a race horse" - you still need talent and work hard to be better or even the best. For me, Jan Ullrich will always be the first German to win the tour. When was asked in an interview after 2006, whether he could imagine to come back, he replied "For no money in the world I would go back into that hell".
But that's a demonstrably flawed notion; do you know who Bjarne Riis is? Doping will have different effects on different physiology and is therefore absolutely, 100% going to effect some more than others. Voigt is not a scientist.
At best Lance Armstrong was a decent one-day racer pre-cancer. Yes he won a world championships and some other one day races, but as a grand tour rider, he was mediocre at best. Doping made him what he became. Without doping, he'd just be a footnote of a bunch of US riders who had moderate one-day racing success.
What I’ve learned from this is that people seem willing to forgive your cheating if you seem like a nice person. If you’re not a nice person, you can burn in hell and no redemption is possible. I’m not sure how nice you are if you’re prepared to steal the victory from someone else, but those are mere details.
Agreed, except that in the Pantani/Armstrong/Riis/Ullrich era almost everyone cheated, as much as 90% of the peleton, so a case of levelling the playing field. Many had to do it, were required to do it by their teams etc. Were someone to be caught today, I think the reaction would be much stronger across the board as it would certainly be as you say, cheating others out of victory.
@@leangrypoulet7523 Which is why it is revealing when some people are singled out when almost all we’re doing it. I’d much rather people be honest and say ‘I hate X (for whatever reason), therefore they must not be rehabilitated even when they’ve been punished and served their time. Of course, that would reveal that some people are just vengeful, and they would lose the moral high ground they put themselves on. People cheat in all, even the most trivial, areas of life. It’s human nature. When you throw in money and plaudits, the stakes are higher, as are the prizes, which is why it doesn’t and wouldn’t surprise me when someone is caught, even riders I like. Some people just want to win more than others, for whatever reason, even the nicest seeming people. Would I be disappointed? Sure. Surprised? No. Of course, the reaction, as you say, would be much stronger today.
With regards to Armstrong, and as someone who loves cycling, I will always be disappointed at the bullying and the dishonesty of what he did. As someone however who has had to fight for their life, who’s had to endure years of invasive surgeries and medications that left me feeling worse than the disease that’s tried to kill me, Armstrong will always be a role model to me, even if the best I can now do is ride a few miles with my kids on mountain bikes. To come back from what he did and win 7 TdF’s in a field of drug cheats is nothing short of miraculous.
The PTO US Open and USAT Age Group Nationals were fantastic last weekend! It was great to have my city host the USAT Age Groups again and even better to experience the PTO US Open! Excellent event and amazing weather!
It is funny how nearly none of the runners up, or the riders at the lower end from any previous generations, is saying that they feel cheated by the ones that got caught for doping, doesn’t that tell that that they all did it and they all felt they competed at a level field ?
Wtf are you talking about ? Lemond was extremely vocal about this, if you want only one example. Is a 3 time TDF winner saying he felt powerless against the EPO mutants not enough for you?
also i know for a fact that nobody wanted to dope back then but it was a case of having to in order to compete with the rest of the peleton, the uci are to blame as they were fully aware of the goings on
It’s pretty much the same as the Steroid Era in Major League Baseball: Everyone knew what was going on; the front offices and owners knew what was going on, and training staffers were often providing the juice. They wanted to raise the profile of the sport and reaped the financial rewards. The UCI (and the Tour) did the same.
You’re not cheating when everyone’s doing it. And there’s no such thing as, “One guys was a worse cheat than another.” Because there’s no way to measure that.
Exactly. People who think this sport is clean need to wake up. Lance’s claims that he was the most tested athlete in the world are true. But yet, he beat the testing anyways. That should set off alarm bells for anyone who trusts the tests. Plus, it’s interesting that many of his competitors don’t hate him as much as most armchair quarterbacks do. Ulrich credits Lance with saving his life. Basso rode for him at Radio Shack. Andy Schleck has appeared on The Move several times. Wiggins defended Lance. Even a rival like Contador dares not throw stones. Why? Because everyone knows that the playing field was level. Landis only ratted Lance out because he himself was caught, and Lance refused to sign him to Radio Shack. Oh, and the tidy $2 million that Floyd got as a federal whistle blower didn’t hurt. Hamilton? Same thing. He was perhaps the worst doper out there, constantly getting caught. Then he writes a book and tries to sell it by becoming Mr. Oh I Can Be Trusted Now. Oh, and let me remind everyone why all they could do is vacate the 7 TdF wins without naming anyone else the winner. Look at the top 10 for every one… they were all busted one time or another.
@@rockhopper01 Yes, any true Cycling fan and Cyclist, knows that Lance is the 7 time Tour Champion, the record books mean nothing. If you ask Eddy Merckx or Miguel Indurain, who won the Tour between 1999 and 2005?? They will tell you Lance Armstrong. What's sad to me is, as a fellow American here, I find it sad that it was not the Europeans that brought down Lance, it was USADA that brought him down, that to me is pretty messed up. So many un-informed Americans still think today, that the Europeans were the ones that ruined Lance's legacy, when in reality, it was America that ruined Lance's career and legacy. To me, CEO of USADA Travis Tygart, is the biggest fraud here, not Lance Armstrong. Travis Tygart just wanted to make a name for himself and prove that he is some big shot lol.
Thank you guys! Finding some sensible comments makes me feel like I'm not going crazy lol. The way only one person is so called out while everyone else is excused is very annoying.
@@justinexplainseverything1554well said. I'm American as well and it's interesting how little sense of community people have for each other. People will slit each other's throats for the tiniest bit of gain. Especially if you get on the wrong side of public sentiment. Like crabs in a bucket we constantly attack one another.
The mystery of the science of doping continues....... Tony Rominger set a time of 31.25 on the Col de la Madone in 1996 and the record stood until Lance Armstrong did 30.47 just before the 1999 Tour de France, a clue he was going to “win” that year. This past week Pogacar went 23:53..... Lance all EPO'd to the max and Pogacar beats him by 6:31 ..... I don't think it's humanly possible! Certainly everyone at pro-level is micro-dosing to avoid detection while amassing the benefits for recovery and training effort.
@@gcn Nope, he was a total arsehole to everyone, especially his team. Also a lying liar who lied. A lot of his contemporaries, eg Virenque came clean. The British guy (Miller?).
The same Americans who support the killing of Palestinian children and elderly for the survival of the polish invaders planted there by the uncle of Elizabeth of Windsor. But that’s material for another episode
Yes Lance was raw and aggressive back then, he won in a field of dopers. I’ve been watching his podcast the move since it started and Love the show, been following Lance since he won his first tour and he really motivated me. I started training and racing because of Lance and cycling has been a major part of my life ever since!! 🤘🤘
How do you view riders who have been caught doping? 🤔
It depends on the volume of dopers in the peleton at the time.
Should be banned and stripped of all accolades. Disgusting to think that anyone should be rewarded for an unfair advantage
Bad unless they reported it
@@finbridgesgranted, but if 90percent of them were at the time then it was a thing of the time, as long as they can't keep any world records or it has no effect on records where doping was not happening
Either strip them all of their records or reinstate Lance’s wins. Yea he was an asshole, but the double standard is ridiculous.
The problem with lance Armstrong was his personality. He tried to destroy people if they talked about it. Look what he did to Lemond. As far as stripping of his wins they should have done it to everyone that won in that era. Doping was at it's peek then.
Unfortunately doping is still around... Nobody want's to see 10-30% decrease in the average speeds in the professional cycling events, so they just have to keep doing it smarter... That said, it's possible that at some point we might have some more confessions and stories from the current era down the line... :)
I would agree to an extent his personality and just being blunt and crude at times didn't help much, I would also say more like look what Lemond tried to do to him, that dude was relentless and INCREDIBLY jealous of someone else taking his "only American to win the tour" crown. I don't fault either one of them, I feel they both deserve their accomplishments, Lance's doping compared to other riders in his era, hell, even his direct competitors was pretty light, there were guys doing way worse during his reign and he still beat them, still out prepared and out rode them. Ffs it's not like the guy sat on a couch drinking beer all year than ran off full of drugs and won the tour, it was his only focus, his only goal each year, his preparation practices revolutionized the sport,. Was he an ass during the races? sure he was, he was cocky, brash, blunt, , "typical American" to all the euro snobs, but he was also beyond respectful of the tour traditions, the unwritten rules, he never took advantage of another gc rider's misfortune and he could have easily done so. I'm tired of the nonsense surrounding his wins, they dropped a planet on the guy, the others are now team directors or commentators or have some other gig they wouldn't have if not for their tour days and they're treated like what they did was nothing in comparison and that's epic bs.
Nope. There was strong incentive to blackmail him by frustrated outsider. Especially due to his comeback
Ah, Lemond, with his magical " iron injections"....
@@joshwoodson1786 You Lance fanboys are always trying to say Greg did the same thing. But there is zero proof that he did dope. In fact, he left a team during his career because they were starting a doping program. People coming at Greg over Lance's disgrace need to grow up. People knew the team of Lance was doping and were silenced because of the fantasy of him winning after cancer. The U.S. media also had a big hand in that silence too. Lance is trying to redeem himself now by admitting what he did to himself and others. And that's a good thing. But you fanboys dragging others without proof is just childish.
Fiiiinally someone remembering that Mercx was doped
With straight up amphetimines (risking psychosis more like luckiest of all time to have done it so much and never had that)
Just finished Himalayas. Si, Hank, and the production team have captured a truly astonishing journey. I can’t imagine what it must’ve been like. I wasn’t even there and I found myself emotionally overcome. I felt like I understood where Si was coming from. Magnificent piece. Thank you so much.
Si is still banging on about it in the office... it looked pretty epic to be fair! Great to hear you enjoyed it... where shall we send them next? 🗺
@@gcnwhy there's the photo of Pantani? Don't tell me because he was doped. There're lot of video to provide his innocence.
Justice for Marco
The Pirate paid the ultimate price. For me the difference is behaviour. They all doped, so in the end only their behaviour is different.
On the topic of "can't wait to dope". I was a member of a weightlifting club in Australia, one of our members was a national-level lifter at the time. He and his brother had come from an ex-Soviet country (one of the -stans) where they were on the high-performance weightlifting path. One day when we were talking about the latest doping scandal, he expressed disappointment about never finding his 'true potential' because he left [redacted]stan before he was old enough to get on the 'good stuff'. Just an interesting tidbit for ya!
edit: this was around 2012 or so... when the Russians and other ex-soviet countries were dominating international weightlifting.
In late 90's, early 2000's, some ex-soviet pros would go back home for "Russian track camp" mid season. Came back 2 weeks later flying. 🤣😂
Ggg
The triathlon joke is an old one and has been used to reference a number of animals. One of the oldest versions compares to a Hippo. The Hippo is a quicker swimmer and a quicker runner - good job it can't ride a bike........
Very good 😂
Makes bikes to Africa schemes even more important 😂
Hey GCN, well done for bringing this subject back up and not letting it fall to the wayside. I noticed you kept the original Instagram post up as well, much to the chagrin of some users. I applaud the fact that you didn't take it down. As a society, I believe we're too quick to tell people they need to redact something because it was "wrong." No one can erase the past, accept that it happened, and move on. Coincidental that the same can be said about the main talking point here?
I feel the same when it comes to athletes who dope as well. However, for all of those who are quick to completely write off someone who dopes, I would ask them if they've ever cut a corner. Ever walked across the edge of someones lawn instead of taking the corner, jay-walking, rolling a stop sign, etc. I understand these aren't apples-to-apples comparisons, but it's a slippery slope. People who live in a glass house shouldn't throw stones.
You do understand that the reaction of others, be it positive or negative, is also part of the whole "free speech" thing, right?
And that "free speech" is not the same as freedom from consequence or critique?
I'd be much more impressed if GCN had the courage to explore the veracity of the current peloton, instead of the safe option of relitigating past cases already won.
Jay-walking is a made-up crime invented by the auto industry.
@@space.youtubeliterally no one is saying you can't have a dumb take. They're saying, stop telling others what they're allowed to think. If you don't like something move on, or hell block the post if you're that upset. Trying to get someone to "take it back" is what children do lol.
@@dylan-5287 "literally no one is saying you can't have a dumb take. They're saying, stop telling others what they're allowed to think."
It's like you have no sense of irony. 🤣
The saddest thing about the doping scandals for our sport is that the general populace (at least here in the states, maybe not Europe/elsewhere at all?) then tends to think that the PEDs are actually pedaling the bike for these pros, and that NO work, or long hard training whatsoever is involved in their power, speed and success.
WE all know that they STILL had to work their azzes off to be at that level regardless, they just had a totally unfair, 'over the top' advantage over those who did not dope.
Could you do an episode on the Armstrong era, shedding some light on the doping situation, because if the whole Peleton were doping, why is he so vilified?
Because his team was basically maffia and him and Bruyneel the godfathers.
Threatening and/or taking legal action on anyone who spoke up is a douchebag move. King a$$ hole
Armstrong was a bully
I’m new to Cycling and have very little knowledge of the whole situation, thanks for taking the time to reply 👍
@@cliveb15 the US Postal system was more akin to Soviet era industrial doping, so it was the scale and brazenness of it. The unrepentance of his offending, and then the ugly bullying, anyone who tried to expose him was destroyed from a soigneur to the first American TdF winner who lost his bike business after being attacked by Lance.
Armstrong was a vindictive tyrant.
He was a very nasty person.
He did his best to destroy the career of any cyclist that criticized him and threatened to expose his deception.
Armstrong did so much damage in cycling that his legacy still pervades cycling.
By the way, I am always glad when Simon and Dan are both hosting the GCN Show.
The other hosts are outstanding, but, Simon and Dan are legends.
Yet most riders in the sport have massive respect for him even if they don’t openly talk about it, you can see that by how many current and ex pro’s have appeared on his Wedu TH-cam channel.
@@kiely4561”most riders”? That’s a stretch! I highly doubt “most riders” respect him.
@@Mockle07 i would say alot more do than don’t, you don’t have to respect him as a man to respect him as a cyclist. I would lay a bet if you ask the majority of riders from his generation if he should have kept his wins most would agree.
@@kiely4561 that’s fair. It’s still a pure guess, but I understand your point.
As to the mention of Ragbrai in the Cycling Shorts segment, I completed the entire route this year. It was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed meeting riders from all over the US and several other countries. It was much hotter and more humid than any riding I have ever done, and the high temps and poor sleep in the tent at night made it hard to recover overnight. I cannot fathom how people could drink and party and attend the concerts at night. I only had energy left to find a shower, get some food, and locate somewhere shady to rest until the sun went down. A highlight for me was combining day 6 and 7 for an epic single day effort, and getting caught in the tornado warning just a few miles from where my car was parked. After taking shelter in a Subway restaurant bathroom, I eventually secured a ride to the parking garage with a family who happened to pull over to check the weather before proceeding. They brought me to my car, refused to take any payment, and even gave me a jar of canned green beans. "Iowa nice" is real.
Cycling was only one of many sport where the athletes were confronted with a culture of cheating if you had any hope of competing. Baseball, American football, track and field, body building, power lifting, ... I played high school football 1969-1973 and there was steroid abuse among the top level college recruits. It's hard for me to judge people too harshly during those times with the pressure and culture they had to deal with. As it is said, don't judge until you have walked in their shoes.
We don't have to have been there to judge this isn't primary school ethics. These are adults who chose to cheat.
@@whatwelearnedyeah and you have probably never achieved anything in your life but judging others and anyone can do that.
@@aliensarereal7832 cycling fans or people who get into it at a later age tend to be people who were not athletic themselves. It’s a very mainstream, dorky fan base. I don’t mean this in a mean spirited way because I’m kinda a part of it myself, but that’s a big part of the pearl clutching attitude you see in cycling.
@@HkFinn83 you're right. I guess I'm tainted because I've always been involved in sports. Never been a fan of anyone or anything. Just do my own thing and try to enjoy it. Most people need to be a part of something. I've never had that need.
There were some riders who were big talents, but got their pro career cut short because they didn’t want to go into the doping game.
my former coach was a beast in his youth but had to refuse going pro because he would have had to dope
There is no such thing as not doping as a pro if you want to win. So anyone not doing it will either be a waterboy forever or not make it.
Exactly. Some people speak as though there were no true victims because "the whole peloton was doping". Even if that's true it just means the victims are the fair competitors who never made it into the peloton.
@@graemehillfrol all of those that weren't prepared to 'do what it takes'...how mant really would have made it to the top 0,1% of the sport? If you had what it takes in that era, you wouldn't have a second tought, save the extremely puritanical exception.
This was the sport. Accept it, learn from it and move on.
Anyone claiming the winners from this era were not purebread tallent is just using mistakes made FOR them as an excuse.
@@graemehillThis just isn't an arguement that particularly sways me unfortunately.
I'd like to hear more about Merckx and his doping. He's regularly touted as the greatest cyclist of all time but was he cheating the rest of the pack the entire time? How does that add up?
The doping back in the Merckx years was much less effective. Oxygen vector doping (EPO and sophisticated blood doping) were super effective and perverted the sport more. So the doping from the Indurain-ONCE-Riis-Ulliich-Armstrong years were the grossest of all.
He was caught at least 2 times. And he’s a huge douche bag now. I don’t get the love.
@@john-tomlinson YES, THIS. The amphetamines, and some of the painkillers used at that time could have actually HURT their performances, let alone KILLED them (i.e. Tommy Simpson) in that era.
Even blood doping/packing was in the experimental stage back then, except for maybe a few cross-country skiers, and Finnish distance runners.
Most likely why King Eddy is generally given a pass for his (few caught/known) indiscretions.
EPO and blood packing (unless done to excess, and without medical supervision/monitoring when they will be DEADLY), and even HGH/other anabolics do actually help with O2 uptake, and helpful muscle mass, and therefore the ability to generate more power on the bike.
I would love to see a behind the scenes of being a GCN presenter illustrating the process of filming, choosing video topics, work/family balance and so on.
UP TO THIS @gcn!!!!
Great idea! We'll see what we can do, which presenter would you like us to follow? 👀
@@gcn all of em if possible!
@@gcn I know time is limited so jump cutting to different presenters who are doing different things. Follow one presenter who is on a location shoot and everything that goes into that. Then cut to another who is trying to balance home life with work and how that looks for both the presenter and their family. Next, the process of picking video topics, the logistics involved, timeframes and so on. The workings of GCN HQ and what it really takes to make everything happen. No doubt the process is much more involved than any of us are aware.
@@gcn It's a very different form a filming and content - perhaps a new BTS channel that allows viewers to feel like they are getting a peak behind the curtain?
It's a good thing for James that he was with Simon on this one adventure. Imagine if he had gone there with his brother from another mother, Blake! They would've attempted to cycle down K2, those 2!
Hahahah yes that could have been a recipe for disaster! The dynamic duo took a trip to the alps recently... turn your notifications on and you'll get a little treat later this week 🔔
The Himalayas film was just mesmerising - Simon and Hank were the most wonderful duo to showcase the country of Nepal; its culture and spectacular scenery. I particularly liked fun facts and fossil hunting - excellent work GCN!
Thanks for watching! We're glad you enjoyed it - where should we send these two next? They love an adventure! 🙌
@@gcnI genuinely would watch Simon and Hank (all the team really) just go and do their big shop on a cargo bike! But they might find the Pacific Coast of America or Japan more exciting! Biking through Japan would be awesome, I know Chris Broad (abroad in Japan channel) has cycled it before as an amateur and that was great to watch. He could show them the sites and get some spectacular food.
GCN has done a good job on discussing doping in cycling that always come up whenever there is a great performance. Unlike the Chris miller cycling channel that spent solid 20mins discussing various way Jonas must have doped /cheated and jumbo have to come out and show all their data to explain the TT performance 😂
Thanks Seamus! We love bringing you stories from the wider cycling world 🙌
Manlike seamu scumm straight simpining.
haha great reply, completely agree
Finally! Finally gnc is talking about doping in cycling.
Way to go
Those who admitted doping when everyone was doing it, and made a good clean image of themselves afterwards, will still be respected by most. Those who are coerced into telling the truth, and then attack anyone who criticizes them whilst facing that initial scrutiny will always be demonized by most people. There is a reason Armstrong is nicknamed Voldemort and Vaughters is forgiven. Those who ask forgiveness and make the most of their second chance to clean up will always be seen in a better light than those who are in denial and build a bigger empire on their sporting fraud and threaten anyone who tried to take them down.
Not to mention Armstrong to this day doesn't feel an ounce of shame for anything he did. He still, to this day, treats Andreux, Hamilton and Lemond as villains and traitors on his podcast. Their is a huge difference between him and the other EPO era riders who got caught. Pantani, Riis, Ulrich etc... All deserve respect because they repented and suffered enormously from the consequences. At the end of the day, EPO wasn't pedalling the bike for them...
It seems like attitude is one of the most important things! Are you a fan of what people like Vaughters are doing in the sport now?
@@gcn Absolutely. He has earned his second chance and is taking the opportunity to do good. The same can be said forContador et al. The same could have happened to Il Pirata had he not been made a scapegoat by the rest of the cycling world and succumbed to addiction in what was such a tragic downfall. Armstrong blew it by giving everyone bad lip service and being threatening after revealing the truth and not being apologetic.
@@waitbalthy6342 So you listen to the podcast of a man that you judge does not feel an ounce of shame?
Just watched Himalayas and I watched it on the big screen and it is a proper epic, hats off to everyone that helped make it, very very good. Question for both Si and Hank how did you handle coming home after that adventure? Sometimes that is the hardest part, coming back to your regular life.
Twice I spent money travelling to France to watch stages in the early 2000’s. I feel cheated by Armstrong.
Boohoo.
No one attacked on the descents or cracked on the climbs back then… boring racing.
Did you enjoy those times at the races? 🇫🇷
@@gcn Yes, but I was celebrating the athletic 'excellence' of US Postal and Armstrong without realising they were just doping more effectively than the others.
The most deliciously nuanced conversation on doping I've ever heard! Chapeau, gentlemen! Thank you for allowing logic to take the lead.
I remember reading Cycling Weekly in the early nineties….. seem to remember a lot of young continental pros dying in there sleep……. Professional Cycling has a lot to answer for! They certainly didn’t get there own house in order
The logic was; "If a little bit of EPO is good, a shit ton must be better!", and with no competent medical monitoring in sight, those neo-pros paid the ultimate price.
(Although any truly moral, taking their oaths seriously, not corrupt, medical professional would have assiduously tried to keep them from doping in the first place. 😉)
There was no spate of epo deaths, and epo does not turn your blood to "mud." Lol. This was all urban rumor.
I'm in my 40s and grew up during the height of doping in cycling. I tend to have the view that if you didn't do it at the time, you couldn't be competitive. Everyone was doing it. The bosses were pushing it and, ultimately, it's the managers and leaders who are at fault.
We don't like Lance because he's a dick, not because he doped
Aww, would've been cool to see the color scheme of the Orbea that the winner submitted :)
23:47 "computer says no" now that's a classic line from Si
there's a quote from the final Avengers movie that goes something like 'I don't judge people by their worst moments'. However long a rider doped, it's only one part of their story. I think it comes down to what kind of a human being the rider is overall. There are clean riders disliked by fans and there are dopers loved. An unlikable person who also doped, now that's a villain.
Do you understand how stupid that is though? I got charmed by a cheater so that’s fine? Ridiculous
@@SayWhatNow666 That's what you took from the comment? Here, let me help.
All dopers are dopers, but not all dopers are pricks.
Do you understand the distinction? Or are you one of those insufferable infallible knobs who falsely believes themselves to be perfect to justify looking down on everyone else?
@@SayWhatNow666You did not understand the saying it seems.
Armstrong won 7 tour de France titles in the height of doping. He is the best of all time.
@@beauseifert1035being the best doper of all time - well done to him.
I'm half Danish (half British) and as kids we used to spend our summers in Denmark. We were there for the summer of 1996 and Bjarne Riis was celebrated as a national hero for his victory. T-shirts were handed out to kids and there was a general feel-good vibe of celebration just walking round Danish towns. Then as a teenager, the Livestrong wristbands were the thing to have as part of Lance Armstrong's amazing story. In both instances I felt incredibly let down to find out the truth behind their behaviour and achievements. Ultimately this left me untrusting and disinterested in road racing for 10-15 years and it's only recently that I've been tempted back into following it. So for me there is no grey here. Anyone who cheats jeopardizes the integrity of the sport and risks the sports viability for all involved as it limits the sports ability to attract as wide an audience as possible and therefore sponsorship etc.
I agree. I'm Danish and was super disappointed by Riis, cheating. He wasn't a very sympathetic person to begin with and to learn he was a cheater didn't help. Actually I haven't watched TDF, since.... until 2022 , where Vingegaard won. Danm I hope he's clean. But anyway Jonas is a super good guy. So very sympathetic.
4:00 a right apology that deserves to be accepted, Dan.
You correctly pointed out why that specific phrase was out of place: Pantani was definitely part of that system but also, after getting caught, he was spitted out and treated like an outcast, leading to that sad death, while other people from that era are i still in the sport as DSs, executives or commentators with no backlash whatsoever (at least Armstrong experienced a bit of a backlash even if he's still doing pretty good for himself)
PS I know it's just a detail but he wasn't thrown out of the 1999 Giro for a positivity butfor health reasons
At that time there was no test for EPO, but having an unnatural 50+% haematocrit level was pretty much a symptom. Riders were made to take 2 weeks off for "health reasons", with the tacit understanding that it was a bust.
Years later it was proven in a court of law that La Camorra bet against him and when he wouldn't lose on the road, they tampered with his tests to get him thrown out of the Giro.
@@andrasszabo1570 yeah that's why I said it's a detail, the fact he was doping it's out of question of course
@@manuel7102 He was doping throughout his career, he was a client of Francesco Conconi in the 1990s and Eufemiano Fuentes later. There is documentation that he was administered more than 40,000 doses of EPO.
But the fact that this conspiracy was proven in a court of law nudges me into "it's probably true".
I guess they where kinda of victims of that era. Both Pantani and Lance are two of my heroes
Thank you for the well reasoned and thoughtful discussion of doping in bicycle racing. At least cycling has made an effort to face up to its disagreeable past, whereas other sports, likely equally drug infused, have managed to just sweep it under the proverbial rug.
great conversation around doping. Thanks for this!
Nice shoutout for RAGBRAI! As an Iowan, I was a bit surprised to hear you guys talk about it here
According to Tyler Hamilton's book the US Postal team was seriously doping, blood transfusions, EPO, cortisone. Michele Ferrari was their king of doping doctors.
Gee I wonder if any of those might have had nasty side effects like testicular cancer?
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 Lance’s cancer was also in his brain, lungs, and other organs. If your premise were true, there’s be a high incidence of cancer in the peloton, which I don’t believe is the case. Unless you believe Lance is the only cyclist to have ever doped.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 He had testicular cancer BEFORE the whole major doping scandal during his peak, although many believe that yes, he was doping at a much lower level even before discovering he had cancer, from his Worlds win forward.
The corticosteroids are really the only PED they used that could have been a possible catalyst for, or carcinogenic cause of testicular (or any other) cancer.
@@MacThreinfhir That's because it metasticised to those areas/organs from his testicles.
But yes, MOST of what they were taking as PEDs is not considered to be carcinogenic, at all.
#CaptionCompetition: I think this joke has gone over my head.
Lol that cycling playlist suggests a lot of old people are into cycling!
#Himalayas #Hank #Simon. Watched the Himalayas on GCN+ and this is why I subscribe. What a wonderful adventure. Had everything from action, adventure, bromance, and some emotional moments. Huge respect for Hank and Simon. Well done. Such an Epic ride!!!❤🤩
The problem with dopers, especially fron the 90s, is that I stopped distinguishing between "caught" and "not caught". After operation puerto, I did not watch pro cycling for over a decade. Nobody from that era can be a hero any more. It would be good if you made a documentation about riders who took the moral decission and did not have the career they coud have had.
Sadly, I STILL view all results from even supposedly squeaky clean TODAY through a jaundiced eye, due to the past. ☹
I just know that even if I were still young, and in the best condition of my life, and took a boatload of PEDs, I could not finish within 40 minutes of those top riders on a mountain stage, or 10 minutes of them on a TT stage. 😉
Absolutely loved the Himalayas film! What an amazing adventure! Also, well done mixing planning/spontaneity/laughs/tears/hot/cold/etc this really looked like a cycling dream trip and dream destination!
I think Lance has been, if not exactly apologetic, candid over the last 15 or so years. He’s a self admitted a-hole and is seemingly ok with people not liking him. He also admits that everything he did was self inflicted and he only has himself to blame. His insights into today’s teams, riders and peloton are still interesting and informative.
It speaks volumes about the world right now that admitting you're a piece of sh*t is considered an acceptable character trait. He is an AWFUL human being, the end.
I just can't watch him. I was a huge fan - I remember watching his victory on Sestriere. That year Bicycling did a special issue for subscribers with the iconic image of him crossing the line with no other text on the cover. I saved that cover. My kid dressed as Lance for his first real Halloween.
So I was heartbroken when the extent of his doping became apparent, but even worse (to me) is how far he went to punish anyone who spoke out about doping, especially his involvement in it. He ruined lives. Yes, he has tried to make some amends and has been candid with what he did, but I just can't watch him. It's probably as much about me as it was him.
And yet... he refused to apologize to Betsy Andreu - He's a POS human, period, full stop.
@@whatwelearnedyour definition of awful is pretty low. I didn’t realize raising money for cancer research and actually affecting people’s lives was an represented something awful.
@@Civera89 Ruining people's lives to perpetuate your massive lies is awful, lying to sick children who idolise you is awful, and going on Oprah like a bitch to confess is awful. Lots of people so things for charity. Armstrong's character has long been clear.
#captioncompetition: But mate, it would be so much funnier if I wore it - Beret Victorious?
RAGBRAI = party pace + beer. I can't come up with a reason why Dan L has not done the event yet?
Dallas is not 15 times the size of London. Dallas is 386 mi² and London is 607 mi². God bless the US education system.
Love the RAGBRAI shout out. Finished my first one last Saturday!
TLDR
As Italian, ok, fine, it's good that you an approach where you do analyze performances in an unbiased way. Considering all factors, even doping. For sure, Pantani was part of that system. Probably he doped. I was just at best a kid during that era, but we all got to know that cycling had this dark era. Also because of your GCN+ documentaries you do, but also from a lot more of sources.
And there's definitely no language bias nor nationality bias here. We got the point, even us, Italian fans, and italian cycling online communities, where your previous video was shared A LOT. And you don't want to get to know that 90+% of the comments were furious.
As Italian I can certainly state that nobody likes Riccò, Sella or other dopers from that era. And previous ones too. Moser, another famous doped, etc
I am still terrified to read so many compatriot acting like idiots to be fan of Cipollini despite clearly he was part of Eufemiano Fuentes' doping machine in his 2002 year. And especially, considering his current justice issues for Domestic Violence.
But yeah, it's all subjective. I got it, we all got it.
Still, I wouldn't have made a joke or whatever that sort of complex Brit Dark Humour thing you used, about Marco Pantani, regardless of what you subjectively retain him and his career.
C'mon guys, he's literally not here any longer to defend himself already for 20 years.
His mum is in her 70-80 years old still alive, and it has been 20 years defending the image of Marco, often desperately, against a Rubber Wall of lies, plots and a ton of shit.
Literally yesterday in the Italian parliament, Deputee Marco Berruto denounced in Parliament, the fact that tons of Sport Federations in Italy are like run by a feudal system, and one of those federations is the cycling one. Just to giving the point that probably the Cycling Italian System is currently crooked and back then it was maybe much, much worse.
The whole scandal happened in Madonna di Campiglio 1999's stage in Giro, is still debated today as an organized plot by someone. Even Mafia criminals (!!!) testified in front of a Court about "him getting potentially screwed" by the whole system due to a series of bets. It's in Judicial Papers from Mafia Trials.
To conclude: It's not about any longer about considering Marco Pantani as a hero. or whatever subjective opinion you have about it.
It's just time to let his name Rest in Peace, for one last goddamn time, regardless of all of the opinions.
Loved watching him ride.
I really loved watching the Himalaya documentary. Being in the area myself 10 years ago - although on foot- I had a similar experience as Simon: Lagging behind my fellow trekkers in the fading light I sensed the insignificence and desolation of human existence in this vast grand landscape. Then entering the lodge and being back in the warmth of human company and good food brought tears to my eyes. Maybe its the altitud that makes even tough guys sentimental there :) Great film. Should be out for bigger audience.
Lance knew the 50 hematocrit limit better than anyone. I think he even endorsed it knowing that those who were sloppy may get popped.
lol, he "knew" Verbruggen and McQuaid, and how to exploit them to do his bidding.
Funny how all his ex super domestique's, who left US Postal and Disco to become team leaders in their own right, all got done for doping?
It's almost like the murican was protected while his biggest threats were targeted by UCI? 🤔
Everyone except me is over the moon about Vollering, a 26 year old, besting a 40 year old Annemiek. What everyone should be talking about is how in the hell Lotte Kopecky finished fifth on the Col du Tourmalet, the hardest climb in the Tours catalog of parcours.
Judging cyclists strictly on their personal use of drugs without considering the context of the culture at the time of their choice is questionable. This is similar to the current situation in American baseball where the players who have the most prominent records in the sport are excluded from the Hall of Fame, despite the sport not banning the use of the products they purportedly used at the time the records were set and not punishing them or others for their purported use.
People still don't understand sports, period. It is about money and the framework for substance policies is only strict enough to appease the fanbase and keep the money flowing. Marijuana use is performance enhancing in sprinting (Shacarri Richardson suspension), but essentially legal in the NFL now (so many, including brand selling stars were getting caught up). Generally, people are stupid and athletic bodies do enough to make sure athletes don't die and people spend their money on the sport.
I appreciate the honest conversation. I'm glad you called out Eddy Merckx for doping. No one ever discisses doping. I started watching bike racing during the Lance Era. I was crushed and pissed when Lance finally admitted to doping. I am still very skeptical of the extra human performances of the modern peleton, but I am starting to believe in their performance.
It's a tough topic to approach but we're glad you enjoyed our take! It can be heart breaking to hear of a doping scandal. Do you still enjoy watching the current pros? 🤔
Does it really change things for you that much? Certainly if one guy is doing something others don't have, that's one thing. But they're all in on this. It's top of the world racing. The bikes go through millions of dollars of engineering for the tiniest aero gains. Knowing they take performance enhancing supplements is different? Right now they absolutely have chemicals we've never heard of before to maximize performance. Men's cycling is 10x as big as women's, and the women are awesome athletes. No one wants good performance, they want top of the line. But then people seem personally offended at some things and not others. Strange situation all around.
@@dylan-5287 I love watching the women's racing. I think it is just as exciting as the men's sometimes even more exciting (i.e., this year's Paris-Roubaix). It does change things for me if I know someone has an unfair advantage over someone else. I think I will always be skeptical of some performances over others. I love riding my bike and I love watching others race their bikes so yeah...I will always watch bike racing.
@@gcn I absolutely love watching the current batch of pros especially the women's peloton. I also thank GCN+ for bringing me coverage of ALL racing men and women's.
Maybe only slightly related but I recently had a very difficult conversation with an ex-colleague who had a cancer backstory but without a sign of guilty conscience claimed to take EPO because his disease and therapy did impact his sporting performance but he still wanted to smash MTB trails. On one hand it just sucked it up quitely but on the other hand, I was just shocked how casually he talked about it. Then, he went on and spoke about a friend who also went for doping so that he could survive a half marathon which he promised to finish together with his girlfriend but didn't put in the effort for training. So, I think a big factor is how we perceive athletes and they slipped into doping. Just the extra push or a shameless shortcut? Anyway, I think both guys I was talking about are morons, a bit like Bradley Cooper in "Limitless".
Taking EPO without doing the training is to not understand what EPO does. Your "friend" is a moron. He'd have been better served taking amphetamines than EPO.
Amateurs doping so they can participate in big events is no big deal. It only becomes a problem if they are taking slots from competitors. There are limited opportunities or higher age-groups to get to Iron Man Hawaii for example.
If you're cheating at a single-player game, I don't care. When you start cheating in multiplayer, you're a wanker.
Also if you brag about your performance while cheating in single player, you're also a wanker.
@@the_rzh It's easy. Accept your limits or push them out with hard work. Cheating is cheating, no matter the price money. Others work hard to qualify or for a podium finish, so that's as bad as cheating in professional sports - and even more lame if you fall for it for no reason other than selfishness.
I'd he's just riding mtb trails who cares? That same logic applies to everyone on ebikes lmao.
The Himalayas documentary was amazing. It would be great if you could make another one, as I am sure you have loads of footage from that.
Doping in cycling must be viewed as a cultural thing that became deeply embedded into the sport thanks to the actions of some people, in order for us to realize how harmful it was/is and how we go on about it. For me, the most vilified people should be those who perpetuated the idea that in order to enter this sport, you must dope, and in order to win, you must play the doping game (budget, access to illicit substances, doctors, corruption, silencing people) better than others. Which easily explains why Armstrong will always be the most hated man in cycling. Vaughters has done enough towards redemption I think, while others preferred to shut up or carry on with their implausible denials. At the same time, I find it preposterous that Vinokourov is still allowed anywhere near a cycling team. Also, it's easy to view Pantani as a tragic victim of this culture - because he certainly was one - and paint him as a sympathetic antihero, but at the same time he only seemed to feel sorry because he was caught and was generally angry and keen to make anti-doping seem like a bad thing, in an era where many people were dying because of banned substances while nobody seemed to care - and especially not the people winning thanks to them. Doesn't seem like a guy for us to be worshipping. At that time, if you spoke in favor of fighting doping, you were the black sheep of the peloton thanks to the people who were winning because of it. I prefer to respect people like Lemond who got in harms way trying to change that perspective. Finally, doping should not be normalized, but from the occasional stimulant in the 70's to EPO turning the sport into a total clownfest in the 90's there's some massive difference. So I guess some people will think that although Merckx doesn't have a spotless career, he didn't need doping to come across as a great cyclist. It wasn't like he was having trouble finishing Tour De France, then he returned right after surviving cancer to obliterate everybody.
Fignon was another, he never sugarcoated it. Helped try to clean up the sport.
@@Songbirdstress There's also the distinction I made between the 70's and the 90's there. He used amphetamines as others had done in the past. But whatever one might think about that (cheating is cheating etc) it's one thing to take something that makes you more alert and euphoric in order to deal with the pain and another to be on EPO and human growth hormone to induce physiological changes to your body. Fignon said that this idea revolted him and having seen the changes these substances brought to the sport into the early 90's and him leaving cycling, it's obvious that he was honest.
#captioncompetition "Rumours rife that Remco is moving to Uno-X as he's seen testing the new Uno X TT helmet"
When I think of Marco what I see is a victim, a person who struggled with mental health issue, and who unfortunately had a very tragic ending. I can't help but feel empathy towards him and I think he'll always be loved by a lot cycling enthusiasts. Someone like Lance, on the other hand, comes off as an arrogant jerk who only confessed when the USADA had already been provided with enough information by Landis. I don't think he ever showed any signs of repent.
With people like Valverde, if you watch the interviews and the Movistar Netflix series he seems to be a genuinely nice person and very respected in the peloton during his career. That's probably why people like him.
They were playing “highway to Hell” as we crossed the start line for the Etape Du Tour this year😂
I simply follow Si's advice to purchase the books of disgraced professionals only from charity shops.
Hahahah sounds advice! 😂
At the time I remarked on this, but it is rarely mentioned - in the Armstrong era AMGEN sponsored the Tour of California and other US races - they are one of the biggest producers of EPO!! It was staring us in the face all the time!!
I feel like GCN is the only TH-cam channel that hasn't touched the topic of the likelihood of that 7.6W/KG ride in the TT from Vingegaard being impossible clean. I've seen many established cycling channels take it into question but I feel like GCN with access to trainers and experts in the sports might be able to shed the best light on it. What kind of doping or peds they might have used or not to achieve 7.6w/kg for over half an hour.
He didn’t do 7.6 w/kg.
@@chasechocolate If this guy's not going to pay attention when GCN mentioned that, he's probably not going to pay attention when you do it.
Helicopter Pilot: We've need to put down, looks like a landing pad over there.
9:38 The problem with that is that people invested in the sport have been saying, "there's no longer a doping culture; that was in the old days" continuously for the past thirty years.
Then why do you still watch if if they are still lying to you?
Interesting how riders seem to get asthma or adhd (stimulant medications….) before a grand tour.
@@jonathanzappala Who says I do?
As someone who's lost an SPD bolt at the trailhead of a fairly remote mountain bike ride, the braze on bolt working with an SPD cleat is - and more importantly would have been - an absolute hack. I needed to spend over an hour driving to the nearest bike shop, but I always carry spare cleats and bolts when I ride now regardless. Once bitten, twice shy and whatnot.
I never got why Indurain and Merckx are celebrated the way they are. Whether most riders were doping or not back then doesn't matter, race clean or stay home imo
Love all the riders. What bothered me was how LA, treated people like Greag Lemond.
that street goes both ways, Lemond wasn't exactly kind to him either.
@@randallflat2010 au contraire... Lemond started being a dick to LA after LA repeatedly shit all over Lemond. You'd do the same in the same circumstances, I"m sure.
Pantani's story is a romantic narrative of achievement and ultimate tragedy. Armstrong's tale is of hubris and sheer arrogance.
romantic narrative, what bollocks. they were both cheats. the reason armstrong was so hated, he was a vile individual.
So never mind that his achievements were based on doping, just like Lance? It's funny, I was just going to comment on Pantani's American apologists, who seem to most drive this bogus narrative. I understand that Pantani was charismatic and represented everything cool and European, but you have to ignore all the details to buy into this storyline.
I get what you’re saying and that’s an accurate assessment to make, however I Think Lance has a redemption arc. If you listened to his episode on Rogan, he, at the very least, knows he was wrong and an a-hole during his career. He comes off as someone who admits his awful behavior and genuinely wants to get better. But hey, then again, maybe it’s an act. He’s still one of my biggest inspirations athletically.
@@tannerslomko i agree with your point about armstrong and his rehabilitation, however i do have some difficulty with it. i was a fan of his bike riding but was unaware of what was taking place behind the scenes. we will never know if he is truely reformed, but the point he has made about other cheats being given a pass, almost celebrated, jan ulrich stands out, is very true.
@@percyveer2355 I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. I always thought the doping part wasn’t a huge deal since a significant amount of pro athletes do it. But when I found out about what he did politically it was pretty nasty.
#caption : Remco- "hey Pello, chapeau!" Pello- "no, txapel"
As an American, it does somewhat bother me that Pantani is on a billboard going up classic climbs but you probably wouldn’t see an Armstrong one. Seems a bit inconsistent to me I guess to be okay with one and completely shun the other. (Even with the understanding that Armstrongs personality is much harder to accept). Like you all said, the level at which we feel defrauded can dictate it, but the subjectivity of that bothers me.
As a German, being somewhat "neutral" regarding those two, I agree with you: the same standards should be applied on everyone. Still: Lance was a Colditz hearted doping-mastermind, taking doping to another level of sophistication and professionality, also offending and playing rough with people close to him. However, I am impressed how openly, reflected and regretful he is looking on the subject today.
Armstrong made his team dope. He was incredibly abusive. I remember when the first soigneurs were speaking out, they were physically afraid. Armstrong isn't hated because he doped, he is hated because he treated people like shit.
There are too many variables to love or hate a doper. In Lance Armstrong's case, I like that he used his celebrity to spread awareness of cancer in men in sensitive areas. I work in a cancer center outside of Los Angeles, and can appreciate his resolve to tell men not to be embarrassed, to check themselves regularly, and seek medical attention if they feel something abnormal. It is possible to have a love/hate relationship with a celebrity. Yes, Lance was a doper (like so many others in the era), yes, he did horrible things, but he also did some good in his life.
Say what you will about Lance... but those were the best tours to watch since LeMond Hinault and Indian years. And this tour was pretty good, but the lance years were epic.
If by epic you mean boring, you're right. Apart from 2003, no one finished within 4:40.
One guy winning at will and no one being able to do anything about it wasn't very interesting.
An epic Tour needs at least 2 near equal competitors, not 1 guy dominating.
this episode was perfect for me. I had to go into the office and shred two boxes of documents a proper amount of distraction. Keep up the good work gentleman.
Destroying the evidence 🤣
Some dopers made TV commercials talking about how clean they are. And attack anyone that questioned them or spoke out. And were part of high level corruption in the sport
That's the difference in being a villain or not. It's easy to discern.
Tour de pharmacy. Best documentary ever
So awesome to see you guys shouting out RAGBRAI! I look forward to the year you send a couple people out to cover the week and see just how challenging it is to ride 500 miles with a constant buzz 😅🍻🤌
I don't care that they doped, I don't care that they lied about it (talking was, of course, impossible) but I hate how Armstrong treated people. That was unforgivable.
I was so pleased to hear that Mikael won the Orca, and that I didn't. I'd forgotten all about the competition, and earlier in the morning I splashed out nearly $700 buying a vintage Rotrax steel frame on eBay. Anyway, I've got a project for the winter.
plus one
You can still dope and be respected. When you don’t act like a clown and bury people no one will care if you doped as we all know no one can win the TDF without chemical assistance.
Whilst I agree with most of your statement the current peloton face so much more in the way of doping control and external scrutiny that it would be impossible for the whole WT to be involved in doping. No guarantee that there aren't individual riders doping but to suggest that it is a requirement to win a race is a stretch.
Armstrong used to control people by fear of suing them. Yet he was doped to the eyebrows.
@@matt_acton-varian It is a requirement since no one on this planet can do it alone and even with a team helping you along.
I am a big fan of pro cycling and a well seasoned rider and know exactly what it takes to race a bike. The level of fitness, age, technology and training is not the same as the 1970's where LEGS won the tour. Every major team is on hyperbaric tank training these days ( Froomes days where this accelerated). So EPO is not as popular now since it can be detected, but high altitude hyperbaric chamber sessions can not be detected and they do the same result as EPO which is to increase your hematocrit levels ( 48 acceptable for UCI standards.
There is more technical cheating going on these days instead of straight up injecting concoctions. Radios, Aero frames, Power meters have changed the race methods. I don't like the new way teams are cycling there is no more surprise attacks now it looks like a mechanical race which is becoming boring to watch.
Using substances to enhance performance has always been part of cycling. I suspect it still is; non-the-less, I enjoy the sport and respect the riders for their abilities of endurance. During the Lance era; no winner was declared in his races, since all of the top finishers had questions around them. As I see it they were all racing on a level playing field, since many of the top racers doped.
Mike
Doping destroyed Pantani, who would have been top if the sport was clean. Armstrong couldn't have competed with athletes of his level of not for the doping. One never recovered from the shame and one did all he could to destroy anybody that tried to out him.
Great post.
I am sure the known dopers like Armstrong, Ullrich, Pantani and others would still have been on the top without doping, but just not as fast as they were; as Jens Voigt pointed out in an interview: "Epo does not turn a farm horse into a race horse" - you still need talent and work hard to be better or even the best. For me, Jan Ullrich will always be the first German to win the tour. When was asked in an interview after 2006, whether he could imagine to come back, he replied "For no money in the world I would go back into that hell".
But that's a demonstrably flawed notion; do you know who Bjarne Riis is? Doping will have different effects on different physiology and is therefore absolutely, 100% going to effect some more than others. Voigt is not a scientist.
At best Lance Armstrong was a decent one-day racer pre-cancer. Yes he won a world championships and some other one day races, but as a grand tour rider, he was mediocre at best. Doping made him what he became. Without doping, he'd just be a footnote of a bunch of US riders who had moderate one-day racing success.
What I’ve learned from this is that people seem willing to forgive your cheating if you seem like a nice person. If you’re not a nice person, you can burn in hell and no redemption is possible. I’m not sure how nice you are if you’re prepared to steal the victory from someone else, but those are mere details.
Agreed, except that in the Pantani/Armstrong/Riis/Ullrich era almost everyone cheated, as much as 90% of the peleton, so a case of levelling the playing field. Many had to do it, were required to do it by their teams etc.
Were someone to be caught today, I think the reaction would be much stronger across the board as it would certainly be as you say, cheating others out of victory.
@@leangrypoulet7523 Which is why it is revealing when some people are singled out when almost all we’re doing it. I’d much rather people be honest and say ‘I hate X (for whatever reason), therefore they must not be rehabilitated even when they’ve been punished and served their time. Of course, that would reveal that some people are just vengeful, and they would lose the moral high ground they put themselves on.
People cheat in all, even the most trivial, areas of life. It’s human nature. When you throw in money and plaudits, the stakes are higher, as are the prizes, which is why it doesn’t and wouldn’t surprise me when someone is caught, even riders I like. Some people just want to win more than others, for whatever reason, even the nicest seeming people. Would I be disappointed? Sure. Surprised? No. Of course, the reaction, as you say, would be much stronger today.
With regards to Armstrong, and as someone who loves cycling, I will always be disappointed at the bullying and the dishonesty of what he did. As someone however who has had to fight for their life, who’s had to endure years of invasive surgeries and medications that left me feeling worse than the disease that’s tried to kill me, Armstrong will always be a role model to me, even if the best I can now do is ride a few miles with my kids on mountain bikes.
To come back from what he did and win 7 TdF’s in a field of drug cheats is nothing short of miraculous.
Lance Armstrong is STILL 7x Tour de France Champion!!!!
The PTO US Open and USAT Age Group Nationals were fantastic last weekend! It was great to have my city host the USAT Age Groups again and even better to experience the PTO US Open! Excellent event and amazing weather!
It is funny how nearly none of the runners up, or the riders at the lower end from any previous generations, is saying that they feel cheated by the ones that got caught for doping, doesn’t that tell that that they all did it and they all felt they competed at a level field ?
Bjarne Riis on line one
Wtf are you talking about ? Lemond was extremely vocal about this, if you want only one example. Is a 3 time TDF winner saying he felt powerless against the EPO mutants not enough for you?
Finally a good discussion around doping!
also i know for a fact that nobody wanted to dope back then but it was a case of having to in order to compete with the rest of the peleton, the uci are to blame as they were fully aware of the goings on
It’s pretty much the same as the Steroid Era in Major League Baseball: Everyone knew what was going on; the front offices and owners knew what was going on, and training staffers were often providing the juice. They wanted to raise the profile of the sport and reaped the financial rewards. The UCI (and the Tour) did the same.
East German swimming. Everyone knew.
It's exactly the same still now but with better doctors staying ahead of doping control. Big prize money = winning at all costs. No win = no job.
People have always looked for advantage. You even have people doping horses. C'mon now.
@@Songbirdstress Why would you single them out? It was eastern block all sports.
Caption Contest: "Experts say you should check you helmet after every fall, but I think it'll be fine."
You’re not cheating when everyone’s doing it. And there’s no such thing as, “One guys was a worse cheat than another.” Because there’s no way to measure that.
Exactly. People who think this sport is clean need to wake up.
Lance’s claims that he was the most tested athlete in the world are true. But yet, he beat the testing anyways. That should set off alarm bells for anyone who trusts the tests.
Plus, it’s interesting that many of his competitors don’t hate him as much as most armchair quarterbacks do. Ulrich credits Lance with saving his life. Basso rode for him at Radio Shack. Andy Schleck has appeared on The Move several times. Wiggins defended Lance. Even a rival like Contador dares not throw stones. Why? Because everyone knows that the playing field was level.
Landis only ratted Lance out because he himself was caught, and Lance refused to sign him to Radio Shack. Oh, and the tidy $2 million that Floyd got as a federal whistle blower didn’t hurt.
Hamilton? Same thing. He was perhaps the worst doper out there, constantly getting caught. Then he writes a book and tries to sell it by becoming Mr. Oh I Can Be Trusted Now.
Oh, and let me remind everyone why all they could do is vacate the 7 TdF wins without naming anyone else the winner. Look at the top 10 for every one… they were all busted one time or another.
@@rockhopper01 Yes, any true Cycling fan and Cyclist, knows that Lance is the 7 time Tour Champion, the record books mean nothing. If you ask Eddy Merckx or Miguel Indurain, who won the Tour between 1999 and 2005?? They will tell you Lance Armstrong. What's sad to me is, as a fellow American here, I find it sad that it was not the Europeans that brought down Lance, it was USADA that brought him down, that to me is pretty messed up. So many un-informed Americans still think today, that the Europeans were the ones that ruined Lance's legacy, when in reality, it was America that ruined Lance's career and legacy. To me, CEO of USADA Travis Tygart, is the biggest fraud here, not Lance Armstrong. Travis Tygart just wanted to make a name for himself and prove that he is some big shot lol.
Thank you guys! Finding some sensible comments makes me feel like I'm not going crazy lol. The way only one person is so called out while everyone else is excused is very annoying.
@@justinexplainseverything1554well said. I'm American as well and it's interesting how little sense of community people have for each other. People will slit each other's throats for the tiniest bit of gain. Especially if you get on the wrong side of public sentiment. Like crabs in a bucket we constantly attack one another.
Not everyone was but everyone that was on a Podium was
It's somewhat dangerous when "Thunderstruck" starts right at the beginning of a long, steep gravel descent. Dangerous, yet oh so timely.
Lance is still the 7x champ, all sports at all levels are rife with doping.
No one, doping or not, will be able to come close to that.
#captioncompetition: That's not a cushion on his head but it is a Pello under his arm
It wasn’t the drugs that got Armstrong, it was the lying vilifying his former teammates and others. Meanness.
The mystery of the science of doping continues....... Tony Rominger set a time of 31.25 on the Col de la Madone in 1996 and the record stood until Lance Armstrong did 30.47 just before the 1999 Tour de France, a clue he was going to “win” that year. This past week Pogacar went 23:53..... Lance all EPO'd to the max and Pogacar beats him by 6:31 ..... I don't think it's humanly possible! Certainly everyone at pro-level is micro-dosing to avoid detection while amassing the benefits for recovery and training effort.
Lance Armstrong is still considered a hero by some Americans. I guess it doesn't matter how you win, just as long as you win...
Do you think he is still a legend? 👀
With Armstrong, it’s what he did with his money and power after he retired. That’s what will put him in the deepest darkest pits of hell.
@@gcn Nope, he was a total arsehole to everyone, especially his team. Also a lying liar who lied. A lot of his contemporaries, eg Virenque came clean. The British guy (Miller?).
And he likely doping against a field of dopers.
The same Americans who support the killing of Palestinian children and elderly for the survival of the polish invaders planted there by the uncle of Elizabeth of Windsor. But that’s material for another episode
That’s pretty good analysis boys, I’m impressed.
Yes Lance was raw and aggressive back then, he won in a field of dopers.
I’ve been watching his podcast the move since it started and Love the show, been following Lance since he won his first tour and he really motivated me. I started training and racing because of Lance and cycling has been a major part of my life ever since!! 🤘🤘
I'm guessing Mikhail was the only one able to get the Orbea Mio to actually work.
#captioncompetition Inside Remco's head: Sunshine, Pello Drops and Rainbows, everything thats wonderful is what i feel when I'm in berets.
Nice bike at 0:27 with the fork back to front!